Got this off UselessNet :

There is a small write up on the new WRX (US spec.) in the latest Car and
Driver Magazine. [Feb. '01] The car appears to have 16" wheels, and I am sad to say,
looks somewhat less than flattering. According to C&D, the car will have
227HP, and start at $26,500 US. Subaru claims a 0-60 MPH time of 6.1 sec.,
which C&D wholeheartedly agrees with. They also say that it handles very
neutrally, with more than a hint a oversteer. They also note that the front
seats very supportive and comfortable. On the negative side, they say there
is noticeable turbo lag until above 3000 RPM. More so than turbo engines
from Saab and Volvo. They did say that the gearbox was very precise and
easy to use. Overall, they (Larry Webster) had a very positive response.
He also hinted that Subaru would offer more powerful versions of the WRX in
America in the future.

Larry Webster is pretty cool. I ate lunch with him once (he is a fellow alum of Lehigh University), and we asked him what the coolest car he ever drove was. Guess what it was? Yup, the subaru WRC car!

--Roy

I remember that article. It was awesome, the car did 0-60 in about 4 seconds... in the wet!
Mmmmmm WRC http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

In the next two weeks, expect this site to be inundated with news about the new WRX.

It going to be cool. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

I have the WRX brochure from Germany and those wheels are 17 inch. At least they look the same as those on our pics.

Nopers, we are getting 16" here with an option to get 17" bbs rims. I want the 17", powercoated Black! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif I wonder how that would look http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif
Keith

I think their price guess is a bit too high.

I hope there price guess is just that, a guess! I'll have a problem if that is the real price.

6.1 seconds? it is fast, but considering that it comes down to a decision to keep my RS til it's paid off, or splash down now and re-finance. I'm waiting for the wild horses, if you follow me.

Whoa, I just read it again -START at $26,500?
I don't know about that. Jeez, what'd we be looking at for an STi version 7, then? 28? 29? I smell SVX - well hell, I'll still buy one...If i can.

[This message has been edited by cvalle-sd (edited December 29, 2000).]

$26,500?!?!?!? I'd better cancel my order, there is no way I can afford that... That sucks if that the real price... I guess ill have to get a used Legacy turbo...
--Adam

If that's the real price, Subaru's going to alienate the enthusiasts. US! Hopefully C&D is blowing smoke. Or rather, maybe they've been smoking something, which wouldn't surprise me considering some of their completely idiotic car reviews. I feel like I've seen an "SUV Shootout" or "Top Speed Test" every month for the past year. I think I'll wait until the official announcement before I count my proverbial chickens. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

I think SOA should come up with a special rebate for I-club members. Anybody working on getting the I-club certified as the official Subaru Car Club of America? Or do they already have one?

Yeah $26.5K is way too high. Can't be right. Everybody else has been saying in the $22K-$25K range.

Regarding the pricing--just because everyone here thinks of the WRX as an econo-box pocket-rocket (terms I learned in the '80s), doesn't mean that's where SOA is going to position it.

Think Audi, not Honda. The prestige and profits are much better in the high $20s than the low $20s. Everything about the new WRX (higher weight, comfy ride, fit and finish, more power) points to a more upscale positioning. Really, cars like the ITR are built for the narrowest of niches. Subaru doesn't want an ITR beater, they want an A4 beater.

It will also be interesting to see what the options look like. I bet 17" wheels come as part of a "sport package" for an extra $1500 or so.

hmmmm $26,500 US? that sounds fair. I got mine here in Oz for AUD $46000. Prices here start from AUD $42000. Based on current exchange rates, US $26000 sounds close to the mark, but I got 17" wheels, semi climate control A/C, 6 disc CD player, etc.

Adrian -

Sure 26,500 all in is ok, but it says "starting" at that, which in US car dealer speak equates to about 30k when all is said and done.

26500 base
+ sport package $1500
+ tax, tags, title depending on state could be as high as $4500
+ possible dealer price gouging? $2-5k

= too much

All things being equal, I'd be perfectly pleased to get one for 26k out the door. It would have to be 23k sticker for that to happen though.

Yea, what does C&D know that guess is way to high for base price. They say it has bad turbo lag too. Every review I've ever read from Europe says there is no noticable lag.

Eby, the U.S. edition does not get the variable intake thingy that Jap and Euro cars get. The variable intake is why it is lag free in those markets. The U.S. version will be exactly as you'd expect a small engine turbo car to be: waiting, waiting, waiting, BAM!

If you look at it that way, then yes..it is a bit expensive, but the Oz spec WRX had everything. The only extra I paid for was metallic paint. We don't have any upgrades (or option packs) available from Subaru. For US $26500 you guys should get everything too, I think. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

One negative comment: turbo lag. Saab and Volvo have both light pressure and high pressure turbos. I wonder which they were comparing the WRX to?

A lot of positive comments there:
1. neutral handling
2. 0-60 in 6 seconds
3. great gearbox
4. more power to come

And one neutral comment: $26,500. The price seems very high compared to the current RS. And high compared to most of our earlier speculation. But the fact is, the car will still be a performance bargain. Those that want it will just have to pony up. Count me in.

Only JDM gets the variable valve timing.

The price is way too high, if it is true. There is no way that the average non car enthusiast will buy the WRX over an A4, esp. if they want luxury. Bad move by SOA. If they are more conserned about making money then they should have made it cheaper to go to competition with the honduhs.

I believe that this is the real pricerange.
Just look how much a LL Bean Outback is, the WRX has the "high performance" pricetag, 6.1 seconds 0-60 is quite fast.
And the RS is an older car souped up for younger buyers, but its an old Impreza. The WRX is completely new, so the pricetag is higher, too.
You guys throw a lot of money for aftermarket parts at the RS now, so the WRX payments are probably not too high...
Perhaps SOA is not aiming at youngsters at all, A4 2.8 quattro or 4motion VW buyers might be the target and then the WRX is a bargain.
Lets wait and see.
666

T-WRX, the WRX's turbo "competition" (A4, S40, Saab, etc.) all have tiny turbos that give great torque curves, but run out of steam at 200 or so HP. Subaru made the choice of a higher performance turbo, but they won't get any slack for the driveability tradeoff.

Look at the Audi TT. The small turbo (180HP) version is slower in absolute terms than the big turbo (225HP) version, but all anyone talks about is how sluggish the 225 is at low RPM.

Also, what's this about a great gearbox? Doesn't the WRX have the same old gearbox?

I can't believe you are all (almost all) complaining about the price. One person says they think it will be around 23-24k and everyone automatically thinks that's the final price. What do you expect? It is a different machine almost all together then the RS now. Think of it this way...

Take an MY01 RS fully loaded with all options.
+
refined suspension
+
refined looks inside and out
+
TURBO!!
=
a reasonably cheap powerhouse for 25k
Be happy you are getting an AWD turbo car for that price.

Its not just one person who is saying it will be 23-24... ALL the dealers i have talked to have said that it will come in march or april, and at an MSRP of 22500-25000... I have heard this from several different dealers in several different areas, and they all say that they heard it from the SOA rep... Whether or not this is true, that remains to be seen... We should know in 2 weeks... But my point is, is that 23-24K is teh most popular price, because most people have heard that from a "reliable source" that is different from other people's...
oh well, here's hoping...
--Adam

An interesting sidenote to the speculation here that is based on fact. You can get the H6 engined outback in either LL Bean or VDC editions for more than $2k UNDER sticker, without even trying hard. I expect the Subaru marketing group will be a quite confused bunch in a few more months once they see actual transaction prices.
http://www.vanbortelsubaru.com/

Another interesting question is what will the price of the RS be - will it be the same, or will it be lowered to pick up the small market that currently buys the Impreza L - inquiring minds want to know.

Bogert - what are you doing, new car, turbo, ??? e-mail me.

[This message has been edited by rao (edited December 29, 2000).]

First of all the Audi S4 will smoke any 227 HP car out there. It has a 2.8 I-6 250HP turbo powerplant and does 0-60 in the low 5's(faster than the M3). Second of all the A4 is not a golf, it is comparable to a Passat!!! $26,000 is the exact number I guessed, actually $25,495. 6.1 is not THAT fast, thus you're only paying in the mid-20's. For anybody who thought we could buy a 227HP quality import for $23,000, you're all way off. Basically you'll be buying a nice AWD car that's Mustang fast. However the aftermarket capabilities for hookin' the thing up will probably make it a screamer. Much easier to modify a turbocharged car than to add a turbo onto a NA car!!

Brahmzy
What crack are you smoking? An S4 is about 3600 lbs. It won't do low 5's in stock form. Will smoke any 227hp car out there? Weight is very important my friend and the S4 is a pig. So how about the new 120hp Lotus Elise smoking the S4? It does sixty in 5.6 seconds and has over half as much power as your holy S4.

Jon Bogert,
The European models don't have variable valve timing and every review I've ever read of it says its has little to no turbo lag.

Everyone else,
I think the biggest reason to suspect that it won't be $26,500 is because that is around $8,000 more expensive than the RS. Thats just insane for the base MSRP, maybe fully loaded with leather. Yes it has a redesigned interior, but its still no Audi like some of you are thinking. The interior is still all plastic and fabric, it just looks nicer now. So there is no way they are going to price the base MSRP at 26,500.

I'm not surprised at all at the price, it is about where I figured it would be. (One of the reasons I went ahead and go a MY01 RS.)

Think about it. The old Impreza's price has not been significantly increased for at least the last couple years so you could expect a normal "inflation" type increase. Add to that the price hike associated with new models. (If there was no turbo, how much do you think they would sell the a NEW model RS for?) Next add the increased capabilities of the turbo engine. 7.9 secs to 6.1 secs is a huge jump. 1k for inflation type increase, 2 k for the new model, and 3k for the turbo. Figure most RS have MSRPs around 20k, then it comes to approx 26.

Also, are we talking about base price for the new lower 2.5 NA model or the turbo. If 26k is the base for the lower model...

Ok well I'm in a pissy mood, dunno why... probably cause stuff ain't working right for me on this slow arse puter.... Maybe if I add some Type R stickers on it that'll fix my problem.... Anyways..... Here's the skinny on the WRX and what C&D said to what I know....

The reason for the turbo lag is..... da-da-DAH!! There's 3 cats in the damn car.... and one in front of the turbo!! Ha! Do you all *KNOW* how much that hinders the turbo spooling when in your off-boost moments.... VVT has nothing to do with this fact.... You want a MUCH more responsive off-boost? Try gutting the cats and adding a straight pipe... Sheeeeeesh......... Do the Euro version have 3 cats? No!!! Cause they don't have any moronic tree-hugging green peace wanna hump-hump hippies called the EPA who care nothing for performance because they're to busy getting in touch with their inner fruitiness..... You'd think some car lover along the way would join the EPA and work his way up the ladder so save us all from driving 45HP eletric go carts by the year 2007.....

As for the price..... 26,500? Hmmmm.... Mmmmmmm..... AHA! No sir, I don't like it.

I don't really know what the price'll be... I don't really care either.... 30k loaded sounds a bit extreme.... but the ITR is what? 25.6? So I dunno..... Like it or not the WRX is a niche car.... I don't know where you all are getting this crap about how it's a Euro killer...... it's not.... it's a JDM Super Car..... (only toned WAAAAAY down... damn hippies) the WRX is to the Impreza as the Type R is to the Integra as the GTR is to the Skyline as the Evo is to the Lancer/Carisma.... These are all modded cars of lower classes..... The Skyline like is like a frickin Taurus over in Japan.... it's a Family car.... it's cheap.... and it's slow.... the GTR is just a Skyline that has been moddified... like the WRX......... So you compare it with like cars.... such as the Type R or the VR4... etc.... ok whatever I made to many periods and that makes me more pissy http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif I'm outta here before I get yelled at by someone on here

J-Spec, do you happen to not like hippies? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Hey J-Spec, too many periods! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

26.5 k is steep for a car without leather, sunroof, and such. I dunno, we'll just have to wait and see what the price will be when the car debuts...

Glen

> Think Audi, not Honda. The prestige and profits are much better in the high $20s than the low $20s.

I don't the "WRX" is moving up into the Audi segment. Subaru is trying to though, most telling is the absence of a base model L Impreza. Also the LL Bean and VDC are certainly moving into new price territory for Subaru.

> Everything about the new WRX (higher weight, comfy ride, fit and finish, more power) points to a more upscale positioning.

I wouldn't say upscale. More like "new image" = "performance".

The fit and finish is very similar to the current car (good). The materials look a little better. "But it is still a Subaru."

The ride isn't totally "comfy" - it is firmer than a lot of cars, but not unpleasant.

Heigher weight: think about it. They've added side airbags, bigger seats, turbo engine, larger brakes etc, more equipment. Yet the car isn't a huge amount heavier than the RS [has anyone weighed a Minnam Stage II RS?] (even given the wider track and length). The car has gone on a big diet (aluminum hood) and also advanced sheet metal techniques have really kept the weight down and increased stiffness. If you want a lighter car throw out the stereo!

A4/S4: Audi should wish for an A4 this fast. I don't know what the 0-60 specs are for and S4 but the WRX has a better power/weight ratio and costs about 2/3 of it. Sure, the S4 has a nicer interior. Two different markets, but to be able to get this level of performance in the sub $30k range with AWD.... I think it will sell well.

Given the choice of spending $5k on an RS vs buying a WRX I'd take the WRX. The RS would be faster but I think Subaru has created an excellent "package" and what will be a better performance platform to build on.

Glenn

Well said!! All my 2.5 RS buddies on here keep trying to make me buy an RS...! I don't care if it can be maxed out faster..... I still would go with a WRX..... nuff said

And I don't hate Hippies, per say.... I just hate the EPA and DOT http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif Cause they won't let me import my S-15 Sivlia Spec-R which is 250hp, and only 22k....

Just to clairify - a box stock S4 will do the 1/4 mile in 14.1 seconds and get a sub 6 second 0-60 time. Add a chip and the S4 will do a low 5 second 0-60, and as good as 13.5 1/4 mile time. As you all know, CAR magazine tested the UK spec WRX stock and got 0-60 in 5.9 and 1./4 mile time of 14.5. SCC (well know as acceleration testing and drag racing experts http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif) tested a US spec WRX and got 0-60 of 6.1 and 1.4 mile time of 14.7.

The WRX will probably outhandle the S4.

At highway speeds the S4 (especially chipped) will dissappear from the WRX - it's in gear acceleration is quite strong and it has a top speed of ~170.

They are totally different cars and there is a big price differential as well.

[This message has been edited by rao (edited December 29, 2000).]

Eby, we both are only repeating what we've read. I read an article that said the new WRX has no midrange and lots of lag (and numb steering and no soul). You read an article that said otherwise. No big deal.

Power to weight ratio is highly overrated in determining real world performance. I bet area-under-the-torque-curve-to-weight ratio would correlate much better. Drive an S4 and you'll understand.

Glenn, one man's luxury is another man's pork. I'm not sure I get the "new image = performance" though--Subaru built the performance car of the friggin' DECADE. Then they softened it up for us A4 driving silicone-damped grab handle loving Americans. Your A4/S4 paragraph is exactly the sort of hyperbole that makes my eyes roll. Step right up! Better performance at 2/3 the price. Psst, just don't touch the upholstery, son...

Lag schmag...

You don't need boost taking an auto-x corner. You need the boost to be in a good power range once you take off from the corner.

If you're under boost turning a corner, that would probably induce understeer.

--KC

I wonder if it comes with all the squeaks and rattles like my RS. If I had 30k to spend on a new car, a Subaru would not be my first choice. Besides the GT and WRX heritage the rest is pretty lame and/or low in quality. Hell, my old 80's Passat was better wrenched together than the RS.
Still like my 2-DOOR RS, as long as I don't need more doors, I don't want them.
And money wise, a Focus R or what else comes out within the next couple of years for 8-10 k less makes much more sense.
Until the snow comes...
666

Question:
How come this C&D article is considered any more reliable than any other article we have read before? We're still two weeks out from the official SOA announcement.

My guess is, all the articles have some grain of truth to them, but no one is completely correct. I'm looking at an article right now which quotes the curb weight as 2794 lbs. And that number ostensibly comes from Subaru in Japan.

$26,500? Take it and shove it at that price is what I say http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/mad.gif

What is the point of discussing chipped S4's vs a stock WRX?

A "chipped" WRX will probably out accelerate a stock S4. Big deal.

I wonder why the S4 is faster 0-60 given the slight power/weight disadvantage? Torque curve?

[edit] and Jon I didn't say better performance, I said better power/weight. If the WRX is even close to being as fast as the S4 (which it appears to be to me from my brief ride) then it is still a bargain. All things considered, Subaru has done the right thing.

I even like the new seats. I thought we had got the shaft there but they fit me better than the STi V seats (perhaps we can christen them wide-ass seats just for me?)

More thoughts on my quick ride in the Northwest forum under "2002 WRX sighting".

Glenn

[This message has been edited by Glenn Wallace (edited December 29, 2000).]

A4.org says the S4 is electronically limited to 143MPH. They quote 0-60 of 5.9 and 1/4 mile of 14.4. It is apparent there is very little straight-line acceleration difference between a stock WRX and a stock S4.

One advantage the S4 has is the 6 speed box. Perhaps their choice of ratios is better?

50-70MPH times would be more telling.

Glenn

ps - shut up, newbie. What you greenhorns don't understand about us complaining, is what you don't understand about people who were into this car BEFORE it had magic turbo dust sprinkled on it, and we already own Subarus. I have 2 now, and have owned one before, So I think that gives me as much, if not more reasons to criticise pricing. If anything, Subaru should be thanking me and people like me for being loyal customers, and sticking with them, when I could have certainly taken my business elsewhere. You go ahead and pay whatever the sticker says.

I'm taking the prices/specs directly from the web sites of the manufactures (no wheelin' and dealin' here). WRX are guess/whatever sounds reasonable for now. We are looking at cost (for me in Boise, so there is the destination charges included with some of these prices), HP, and Power to weight ratio (lower is better). All cars are manuals and all have leather interiors (not an option in a WRX, we get the crappy seats, but the cost of the leather will allow for the upgrade of the WRX seats)

Make Model HP PW Cost
VW Gti VR6 174 17.2 $22,900 (no delivery cost included)
Acura IntegGSR 170 15.7 $22,780
BMW 325I 184 17.6 $35,085
Audi A4 1.8T Q 170 19.9 $26,290
A4 2.8 Q 190 17.8 $32,310
Toyota CelicaGTS 180 13.8 $23,470
Lexus IS 300 215 15.2 $35,085
Subaru 2.5RS 165 17.1 $19,500 (no delivery cost included)

WRX 227 (?) 227/3000 = 13.2$ 22,000 - 26,500 (?)

This is the break down. There is a void at the 26K price range, the Audi isn't really any competition in the market the WRX would sell to (Audi more luxury). But say the WRX is 25K, you could get a Celica (I wouldn't drive one, but) and with the money saved you could eeek out a few more ponies. I think that the compitition is too ferce for the WRX to be priced so high. The person who knows what a WRX is, knows what it should be (4 piston breaks, spoiler, semi-racing seats, etc), but that also means they've done some research and know something about cars (yes there is the "I want that one, but we will leave them alone, some people you just can't help). Subaru would be slitting their own throats to introduce the WRX into the US at such a high price point. Especially with the lack of HYPE to the general public. WE are going to be the market for the WRX. I like them, but not 26K like them...

Eh... $26k is too much, puts it on the top of the compitition price wise ($25k Type-R, $25k Cel GTS, etc.)...

The reason why I think thats innacurate at best, is cause it puts the base model cars at a HIGHER cost than the Jetta! (Jetta = basically the top of the line small car)

No, im still saying $23,500

> ps - shut up, newbie.

Were you talking to me? Why would you think I was a newbie?

> us complaining, is what you don't understand about people who were into this car BEFORE it had magic turbo dust sprinkled on it, and we already own Subarus.

Umm, I've been into Subarus for a while now.

> I have 2 now, and have owned one before, So I think that gives me as much, if not more reasons to criticise pricing.

Oh, I think everyone has a reason to criticize pricing. I just wouldn't believe anything that Car and Driver wrote.

> If anything, Subaru should be thanking me and people like me for being loyal customers, and sticking with them, when I could have certainly taken my business elsewhere.

I'm sure Subaru appreciates your business.

Personally I don't think it really matters what the price is. "It is what it is". No matter what price it is (even $21-22k), there will still be people who say "too expensive, I can't afford it". And that is why they'll still offer the 2.5 RS.

Oh heck, it should be $10,000 so everyone can buy it instead of a Focus. That's a pretty cogent argument, right?

Personally I think $24-25k is about right, considering the stripped down spec we get it in.

I do think it is funny that everyone has begged Subaru for years to bring the WRX here and now it is finally coming everyone has to find something else to complain about... the price. And we don't even know what the price is yet. Sheesh.

Glenn

I'll keep my $20,000 RS and spend the rest on a turbo and a few other goodies. I'll wind up with a lighter car with more power!

I can't believe what I'm hearing. Please please please don't take this as an insult, but I don't think you guys who are complaining have any idea what you are talking about. Comments like "That is much higher than WE were guessing, it must be too high.", like you are THE authority on the subject. What do you know about car pricing? It is much higher than the RS, but is much more CAR than the RS. Can anybody here think of a better performing car than the new WRX for the same money? I can't. Oh, and by the way, how many of them are AWD...

Why would the WRX be aimed at the A4? The RS is a comparable car to the A4 in terms of performance; the WRX is comparable to the S4 in terms of performance, but the S4 comes in around $40K. In other words, the Subaru Impreza is totally different from the Audi A4 series. The Audi is a much more upscale -luxury vehicle than the Impreza.

I don't think that Subaru would charge more than $25K for the WRX. Yes, it's a high performance vehicle, but it's still just an Impreza - which has a base MSRP around $16K.

If you take the Legacy example, the maximum difference between a base Legacy and the Outback H6 VDC is only $10K. That includes a more powerful engine, a completely different suspension, a totally loaded vehicle, and a new dynamic control system. There is no way that the markup on the WRX will be equally high over the base Impreza.

I'm still holding onto hope of a base MSRP for the WRX around $23-24K.

Yeah, and the Audi A4 is just a Golf.

People always compare cars based primarily on price, plus or minus 20%. That's why no one compares a Camaro to a Porsche, even though a Camaro can be faster. No one considering buying a Porsche buys a Camaro because it's just as fast and 70% cheaper.

Likewise, comparing a WRX to an S4 is silly. I'll say it again: Subaru is aiming for the high $20s compact European sport sedans with the WRX. I believe it's positioned to be somewhat cheaper and somewhat faster than an A4. The A4 has redefined Audi in the U.S. and I'll bet the SOA marketing department is one big A4 case study.

All ye who complain about a price in the 26k range (which may or may not be even close to reality) are, well, maybe not who is being targeted with this car.

I will gladly buy this car for that price. If you don't like it - go buy another car - I know of at least a dozen other people who will buy it at that price. This car will kick ass for what it is. It *will* be the new DSM of the next few years. I have a whole whack of friends who can and will afford a car in this price range, and yeah they will gladly take it as it is.

Dunno, that is my $0.02. And yeah, dont criticize ME, I am just saying what I think.

-Pat

They wont make it cost more than their Flagship Sedan (GT Limited, Outback Limited)...
Sorry, but Car Companies in America dont make their compacts more expensive than their Family sedans... Even if it is more sporty and faster.
It would be like if the Si cost more than the top end Accord, or the Celica GTS costing more than the Avalon, or the Type-R costing more than the RL... It just doesnt happen.

Glenn,

I gave the chipped S4 numbers just for fun. The stock S4 is limited to around 140, but the chipped cars hae no top speed limit.

I'm still more interested in the fact that the H6 cars are being discounted and the price of the new RS v the WRX. We will new in a few more days.

Well if its 26K for a WRX wagon with the options I want like the 17" rims, I'll see. IIf its 26K base I'll get a Focus to drive around (and Turbo).

More to the point, peope DON'T chip the WRX. The damn "chip" craze is THE dumbest event in the history of performance. One bug owner threw on a "medium" boost chip, and he thought it was cool that the Turbo would glow red for 2-3 minutes after parking the car. Can anyone say Eats turbos every 10K miles? The motor gets the short end on the stick too as aot of that heat ends back in the motor. With the WRX's turbo tirghtly wedged cose to the apss side head, and the exaust close by this will cause lovely overheating problems and a cooked off right side of the motor. The 85-90 turbo people usualy get thier car with a cracked right head or a blown pass head gasket. Kinda the same thing, close turbo and in this case the cooling made inadaquite by 10+ years of abuse. Not to make you alarmed but the EJ series doesn't seem to crack the head, it seems to just wait until detonation sets in and blows the number 3 piston to scrap.

well, many car makers appear to be trying to move many of their models upmarket.
as for the car n driver qoute of 26,5k, i think that is a reasonable price considering what u get, but i won't be buyin it then.
for one, that put its at 6k over the current rs, and almost 10k over the base model. thats like the civic si costing close to 20k, no one would buy it.
my reasoning is that for 26k, i can buy a car that comes with alot more featuers.
altho i am an absolute perfromance minded nut, i am a wise consumer first.
u see, 26,5k is really not a good price for any compact sports car. its higher than the performance oriented competition, and only marginally cheaper than many entry level luxo cars, and mid size sedans w/ all options ie: (jetta, accord,maxima, camry, a4,millenia, bmw 323, avalon, etc.)
so my point is that when shopping, i think many of us enthusiasts will be very hesitant to fork over the cash, as most of us r not rich, if we were, we wouldn't be fiddling with 14 and 15 sec cars!!

you guys are all dips!!!

the Aztek will OUT-CAMPER TENT, OUT-COOLER BOX-BETWEEN-THE-SEATS, OUT-PLASTIC THE INTERIOR, OUT-WEIGH THEM, OUT-EVERYTHING any girlie S4 or panzy WRX can do!

how can i be down with a ride like that?

It comes down to this: if it StartS at 26.5K Subaru will be screwing the people who know what the car is capable of. I say this because and typical car buyer (not performance minded) will look at it and not understand why it costs so much. If they like the looks of it (hard to think that can happen) they can get a new RS for much less and it will still have some decent kick. It is not a matter of can afford - can't afford, it is a matter of what you want. So you buy one, put some money into seats, wheels, tires, intake, high flow cats, etc. you spent the 30K it would take for you to buy a IS 300 or something of the like. Resale will be higher on a car that carries the Lexus/BMW/Audi name. I'm not complaining I'm just saying that this if this is true it is a poor decision on Subaru's part. Putting a bigger price tag on a car doesn't make it a different car.

Here is an article from an Australian magazine. They compare the new WRX to an Integra Type R and the new S15 Silvia. It might give an overview of the performance of the new WRX (and an insight of what Aussie journalists think about it) http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/motor/motornews.asp

another one http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/MOTOR/motorstory.asp?id=2663

This board needs to get its collective head out of its ass if it thinks that the rest of the world, who didn't give a rats ass about the Impreza before, will think the new one is ugly. EVERYONE that Ive talked to who didn't know about the "MK I" Impreza beforehand said that the new one looks better. Face it, most people think that the Impreza (93-01) is UGLY. I happen to like it. The rest of you happen to like it too I assume. But we all know it didn't win any beauty pageants in the car world. The '02 is more attractive to alot of people who have the extra couple grand and who are willing to spend that extra couple grand. These people don't care much for rally, same as the people who buy S4s don't care much for Audi's BTCC lineage. Subaru could probably sell plenty of cars for $26,5...but they would piss off their entire cult following in the US. So we'll see I guess.

Edit:
I resent the earlier comment that "newbies" don't know about Subarus. The only cars Ive ever owned are Subarus. And if you think that "Turbo dust" is a new thing, I should introduce you to my 1989 Subaru RX Turbo. Its got a HEALTHY smattering of turbo dust.

[This message has been edited by TurboRX (edited December 30, 2000).]

HAW! TurboRX said it best.... like it or not the Impreza is a fugly arse car!!! HA!! There I said it! Ask any normal joe off the street.... based on looks alone..... what looks better a 99 Civic or a 99 Impreza? The RS does look sporty, but the majority of the people don't have RS or Si.... The Si doesn't loook soooooo bad either? Do I like Civics? No I hate them! (they are good econ-cars but I like racing so a Civic isn't my best choice.... duuuuh) I'm serious!! I Have many, many people that would rather buy a Civic over an Impreza just because the Civic looks cooler...... I'd say out of the 285 million people in the US like MAYBE 10 million are into modding their cars (and that's a HUGE maybe) No one knows about the WRX..... The only ones that do vagely remember it from playing Gran Tursimo (but most people just say.... "I think I remember something like that... but I liked that Skyline that was cool!") Even in the video game world the WRX gets shafted.....

I personally am buying a WRX.... it looks kinda funky, yes.... but it looks better than the old model that is like 8 years old! (how many times has the Civic been drastically redesigned in that time?!) The Impreza needed a redesign.... the WRX is a beast..... and it's better that the RS... like it or not... Faster or not.... Fast in the american eye does NOT MATTER!!!! If that were the case we'd all be driving sports cars.... But SUVs, econ-cars rule the road and luxury cars tag along behind...

People don't want power they want comfort then power for when they want to "occasionally" goof around.... but most of the time they AREN'T going to zip around the roads...

I will be modding my WRX.... but guess what? I know FOR SURE that alot of people will have no clue what i'm driving #1, that what I'm driving is fast #2, and that it's a toned down version of the cult JDM super car...

You people act like you all represent everyone in america is on this forum...

Whatever..... stop complaining the WRX is a wicked car.... I'm getting it, I'm not any of you so I don't care if you are or not.... And I'll be very happy zipping around looking to put down other cars http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

> The '02 is more attractive to alot of people who have the extra couple grand and who are willing to spend that extra couple grand. These people don't care much for rally

I disagree, most of the people I know who are interested in the WRX (and I get a lot of mail from people with my new-impreza.com website) are current RS owners or current Subaru owners who are very interested in Subaru's rally/WRC heritage.

I'm not totally sure I can afford it but I will do my best to be able to buy it.

Glenn

I think $26.5 or whatever is a little steep. I'd expect that for a 'nicely appointed' WRX, but hey, what's a dollar worth these days anyway? Also, look at what Subaru gets for their loaded Legacy GT cars - they're like $25k and they don't have a turbo. So from that angle - a new platform, a 227Hp turbo engine - looks like a fair price.

Speed always costs $$$$.

We may have one savior: the economy. In case you haven't noticed, it's melting down, or at least taking a healthy breather. As such, new car sales are going to be the worst in 5 years next year (my guess). The car company MBA wizards already know this: (GM layed off 10,000 employees and idled plants in Mich for 3 weeks). Audi's sales for Nov were down on models like A4 and A6 by about 8%. (Just some examples.)

So, the consumer will probably have more bargaining power in his/her corner. Subaru will still move their vehicles, however, margins will be slim (that's good for us).

-olaf

Yes I am a newbie.... when I posted the comparison between the wrx and a4 quatt about four weeks ago some a-hole replied by calling me a troll and subie basher, I was also told to not speculate unless I had a deposit on one which I do, actually two, at different dealerships. Resale is a good point if only enthusiasts will buy these and we are few, the normal public will buy something else.

posted December 29, 2000 12:25 PM by jlyttle
"Yeah, and the Audi A4 is just a Golf."

Man, at least get your facts straight. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif The A4, A6 & Passat share the same platform (B5). The Golf, TT, Jetta & New Beetle share the same platform (A4). Thought that smaller platform (A4) shares it's name with the Audi A4, the Audi A4 is, in fact, built on the corporate B5 platform. See? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

A lot of you guys are saying the Subaru wouldn't abandon you key enthusiests with higher prices. You need only look to VW to see a manufacturer move upmarket, enticing newer, older, richer buyers while leaving it's old, core, enthusiest buyers far behind. It happens, it sucks, but it happens, and for VW, it has been a goldmine, they are selling every car they can make.

That 200hp, sub-$20k Focus RS is starting too look pretty good.

Its gonna be the Focus SVT, 170hp... Probably at the NAIS as well.

Dont forget about:
New Integra/RS-X
Sentra SE-R
The new Z-car
New Mini Cooper S
Possibly a Lancer/Evo coming to America...
And heres a new one to the list:
"Mazda is also planning a "factory tuner" version of the Protégé, as yet unnamed, which will roll out next May. The performance model will feature many sporty touches provided by a company called Racing Beat. It will include a 150-horsepower engine and is designed to provide improved handling and responsiveness. It will even feature an MP3 player as standard equipment. Only 1,500 units will be built at Mazda's Ujina plant in Hiroshima, Japan. Selling for less than $20,000, this performance Protégé is likely to be a hot seller with younger drivers."
(Based on new Protege platform... From http://www.edmunds.com/edweb/reed/protege/01.mazda.protege.fd.html?id=hprdt01protegeA)

Probably a couple others might show up at the NAIS show we've missed... Just give it a week, then we shall all cry or cheer in unison! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/frown.gif

Hey SOA, I know you're reading this thread ... remember your brand image. 7 times out of 10 I take somebody for a ride in my plain-jane (looking) '97 Impreza sedan (no spoiler and barf beige interior!) I get the reaction -- "WOW, I didn't know Subaru made cars this nice!"

The 2.5RS has done a lot to change the perception of Subarus as rustbuckets here, but not enough to be able to sell WRX's at $26 grand.

Then again, I'm sure the Gunma assembly line is stressed as hell trying to meet world demand anyway, so maybe SOA is intending to sell very low volumes of this car anyway. What a mistake.

Plus, the jury has made its decision and left the courtroom. The sheetmetal is plainly unappealing. Doesn't that count for something?

If the car is the driver's car that it's cracked up to be, anything under 30 is a bargain.

The countdown begins:

10 days until the official release . . .

you know, when you step back and look at the performance figures, $26k is not bad. it may not be the cheapest, but it is not the most expensive either.

as for auto manufacturers pricing out the 'enthusiasts': i don't think that is entirely true. most of the guys buying GTI 1.8T's and vr6's are in their early twenties, and they are attracted to the bang-for-the-buck performance. speed costs $$$.

we can all dream about owning a mega $$$ rocketship, but hey, if you want one, you have to poney up the cash.

i'm sure Subaru will sell out of their cars, and, i think their pricing strategy is 'open' - meaning that supply-demand will have a lot to do with what people actually pay for the car. of course, Subaru will start the pricing high, hoping that they have a real winner. do they? i dunno. i think it *could* happen, particularly with the wagons or the blue cars.

-olaf

> Then again, I'm sure the Gunma assembly line is stressed as hell trying to meet world demand anyway, so maybe SOA is intending to sell very low volumes of this car anyway. What a mistake.

SOA said they want to sell 10,000 a year, which is still less than the Outbacks by a bit. I think the first shipment is 4,000.

> Plus, the jury has made its decision and left the courtroom. The sheetmetal is plainly unappealing. Doesn't that count for something?

Have you seen one in the flesh? I have. The photos don't do the car justice. In fact one of the best views is down the hood from the driver's seat.... the hoodline is really low either side of the scoop but inside the fenders. Quite a nice effect.

The front (particularly the lights and scoop) looks great in person, the rear is still blah. From the side it looks like every other econobox <U>until</U> you notice the fender blisters.

Their goal was unique styling, and they have certainly achieved that. The current Impreza is no beauty queen.

Glenn

a perspective of auto sales for the coming year:

DETROIT (Reuters) - The U.S. auto industry is expected to report a December sales drop of about 10 percent, making it the weakest non-strike sales month in more than two years and matching the slowdown in other sectors of the economy, analysts said.

The Big Three U.S. automakers cut vehicle production in the fourth quarter and early next year in reaction to slowing sales. GM also announced 15,000 layoffs worldwide, while Chrysler revealed it has demanded 5 percent price cuts from its suppliers on Jan. 1.

Morgan Stanley Dean Witter analyst Stephen Girsky said he expects GM sales to be down 14 percent, Ford down 11 percent and Chrysler down 15 percent. He expects the annual selling rate for the month of December will be 15.7 million vehicles, down from his previous estimate of 16.3 million.

``We're bound for a pretty hard landing here,'' said George Tall, portfolio manager with David L. Babson & Co., an investment firm near Boston that owns small positions in Ford and General Motors Corp. (NYSE:GM - news). ``The production rates for the first quarter are going to be down and there's a multiplier effect through the whole supplier chain.''


-olaf

glenn, when are you going to update your site? Are you locked down because of the news embargo?

In November Subaru sold almost 9,000 Legacys.

I'd pay $26,500, but I wouldn't be happy about it. That price is fair, but not a huge bargain.

The magazines all got press kits, but I don't know if they contained the pricing information. We'll just have to wait out the 9 days and see what sticker price is and what the option list brings us.

I see I rubbed a couple of you raw with the "newbie" remark. Being new to the board doesn't make you a rookie per se, but there are a lot of bandwagoneers dogpiling on the WRX issue, and I was just reacting to what seems like a lot of new meat logging on and telling current Subaru owners their own business. Given that the WRX is a redesign, and with the time and effort involved in legalizing the turbo motor, an extra 6500 bucks is about what updating my RS would cost. - but I still don't like the price. Because 6500 is what I'd pay retail. A better suspension (stiffer, lower) costs FHI only a small amount more than a mushy one - after all, they're just damper valves and thicker springs. Does it really cost a lot more to make an STi seat v. a stock RS unit? And what about the motor? yeah there's certainly more to the EJ20 than the EJ25, but slapping an extra cat on there isn't exactly "back to the drawing board". This is more or less a engine whose design is long since proven and paid for. I feel like Subaru is edging away from the outstanding value I got for my RS toward a more marginal one with the WRX - Maybe just to seem, by virtue of sticker price, to be on par with Audi. I just want to know why it costs an extra 6500 to give us the Impreza turbo that was such a great bargain in Europe - No, I'm not forgetting the new chassis. I didn't ask for that, though.

I'm saying that if a "loaded" RS was worth around 20k, that a similalrly equipped WRx should top out at 24-25k. I don't know their numbers, and I certainly don't begrudge them making a profit, but to meet those sales goals, a low-mid 20s pricetag is probably a safer bet than hoping the hype will justify the higher STicker price.

[This message has been edited by cvalle-sd (edited December 31, 2000).]

They're still making an RS so if you want a car with RS performance and an RS price get an RS. It will probably be more than the last model but that always happens.

Quit crying about it. They are plenty of Old style RS's for sale in the private classifieds.

Seeeeeeeesh.........

If i had known that my post would cause so much in-fighting, I would have kept it to myself. All we have to do is wait 2 weeks for the press release from SOA.....so says the talking head at the DC autoshow.

As a side note......yet another talking head, Mitsubishi this time, says that the rumor of the Evo VI/VII coming to NA is not all total fiction. She was hinting that they may bring in a very limited number next Fall/Winter, in a very de-tuned state (250hp?). Sounds like they are using SOA as a gauge to see if it is worth the expense.

Only time will tell..........and as usual, Mr. phelps, take it with a salt lick.

Lovejoy

BTW.....the Alacantra seats in the S4 are to die for http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

[This message has been edited by Lovejoy (edited December 31, 2000).]

I would have to agree with the 23-25K range for the WRX, and with them producing 10K of them + extra orders I'll bet you'll be able to get them 2% over invoice if you tryed anyways.

Also, that CAT before the turbo probably accounts for the extra lag.

I bet a set of headers, downpipe, new cats +catback exhaust and intake will yield 50hp with some fuel tuning on the new WRX.

I already have plans for my new WRX, assuming these things can be done (we will find out).

- custom headers, downpipe, new cats and catback exhaust
- custom intake
- convert stock air/air intercooler to air/water (I determined this is probably the cheepest route)
- fuel system upgrades
- apexi replacement programmable ECU (I'm sure they'll come out with one for the new WRX)
- maxed out stock turbo
- 18inch advan wheels with 225/40-18
- cusco suspension add around setup

- grin on face

Speaking of other hot AWD turbo cars...

Remember a while back seeing that Mazda 626 AWD Turbo sedan?? It was silver with a subtle body kit and wheels, running the show-circuit here or something. Mazda should build that car! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

That car, a Turbo, AWD Cosworth Focus, the new WRX, maybe the Evo... this could be a nice turn of market for us US buyers. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif They will all be mid-$20k's plus though.

Kostamojen-- "Its gonna be the Focus SVT, 170hp..."

I think a 170 hp, FWD turbo, Focus with that nice body kit like they keep showing (Blue RS) would be sweet AND under $20k no problem. That would be a nice alternative if one wasn't able to pony up the $25k+ for a WRX.

FocusSVT is going to be naturally aspirated.

Here's a link to that Mazda I mentioned above

http://www.autoweb.com.au/start_0/showall_/id_MAZ/doc_maz0002291/article.html

I don't remember seeing that wing before, but otherwise, it's pretty cool Ithink.

It is threads like this one that make me question the validity of the board. Here we see attitude, opinion, infighting, insults, etc. And after all this, we have absolutely no f***ing info that brings us any closer to the truth. Opinions are not worth the time it takes to read them. Did anyone reading this thread get anything useful out of it?
Unbelievable.

"It is threads like this one that make me question the validity of the board. Here we see attitude, opinion, infighting, insults, etc. And after all this, we have absolutely no f***ing info that brings us any closer to the truth."

I agree. THe argument of chipped WRX vs stock S4 has to be the most pointless in the history of automobilia, from practically every angle, let alone cost.

Further to this a new S4 costs 3 times - that's THREE TIMES - a new WRX in this neck of the woods (where we've had WRXs for years). I can buy THREE WRXs - or maybe a WRX 5-door and import a brand-new WRX STi - for the price of ONE Audi. And the WRXs here are as quick as the S4s - don't ask me why, something to do with the petrol and/or local tuning.

From the US pespective, I'd say the $14k-odd difference between WRX and S4 was fair; it buys you better quality materials, more kit, a bigger engine and (arguably) better looks. What it doesn't buy you - partly because of all that kit - is markedly better performance. As as enthusiast, you should be rejoicing in this, not whining about it.

What on earth is so difficult to accept about that? Answers on a post card please http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif.

Andy T

It's All good !!!!! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif I would like one of each, But at about $26,000 the subaru is looking very good http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif TOMMY B RALLY ON//////