I am posting this in a new thread because I feel that it is necessary to respond to some of what Al Gainey said in a related post http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/Forum1/HTML/009846.html and the discussion has turned far from the original thread. This not in any way a personal attack of Al, just as I don't view his comments as being a personal attack of me.

Al, I must take issue with some of what you stated. I was fully prepared for some fine tuning that I expected to be associated with the kit, and I discussed this at length with Rimmer over the 8 month wait for the kit. I used to talk to Brandon at least every other day. However, I was not willing to redesign the kit myself. I followed each and every one of Rimmer's suggestions. Granted, they ran out of suggestions after a few days, but that's not my problem. I only returned the kit once I realized (1) that the kit had never been installed and operated on a MY2000, (2) that they did not have a full understanding of the changes made to the MY2000 and (3) that Rimmer had no further ideas on how to correct the problem.

I'm sure that they will eventually figure out how to make it work on a MY2000, but to date they have not, and it has been at least 6 weeks since they were aware of my troubles.

I have more than enough mechanical skill to install that kit, and, more importantly, to understand all of the systems involved. In fact I had made a substantial investment in various equipment to help to fine tune the kit once it was installed.

The fact is that the people who built the kit have not been able to make it work on a MY2000 - even to this day - so it should be no surprise (and certainly no indication of my mechanical ability) that I couldn't make it work. I am quite capable of performing much more challenging mechanical work.

-->If I am wrong and there is a MY2000 with the same kit installed I would really like to know about that fact - e-mail me or post it here.<---

Also, it is a fact that no one at Rimmer has returned my phone calls (outside of a single e-mail from Brandon relating to my new car), or made any attempt to contact me since I decided to return the kit.

I have moved on though I do have some outstanding issues with Rimmer which I will deal with.

This is exactly why I had no interest in posting my experiences here, other than the fact that the kit did not work on my car.


[edit to highlight one sentence]

[This message has been edited by rao (edited June 25, 2000).]

I'm glad to see this under discussion. I've been planning to put the Rimmer Sidwinder kit on my car (6 months to a year from now) but I'd heard a few rumors that had me worried. Maybe you folks can clarify some of these and help keep me (and all of us) informed on the progress of the kit. I'd love to see posts from Rimmer themselves (Rick or Brandon). I spoke with Brandon on the phone 6-or-8 months ago when I was shopping for my car. The pending availablity of the Rimmer kit was one of the reasons I finally decided to buy the RS (since it is a little under powered for a car of its cababilities and heritage.

Rumor 1: Rimmer has gone bankrupt. I saw mention in the prevous thread of new backing. Whats the real story. Is Rimmer going to be around to support their product? Is the sidewinder going to be available in the future?

Rumor 2: The Rimmer kits have problems on the 2000 RS. Apparently more then a rumor. I really want one, but I really want it to be reliable. I'd love to hear details about a test plan, successful tests on a 2000 RS, and exact problem/solution analysis from Rimmer. (I'm an engineer, so don't spare the technical detail. I'll look up the math if I have to.)

Yes I'm a Scooby Newbie, but I've read the previous thread and I know there are some diametrically opposed opinions here. I'd really like to see a real, civil, and technical discussion of this.

BTW: I'm very glad this forum exists. Let's use it to solve this issue. I'm not a Rimmer lover or hater. I just want a good blower for my RS, and I lean towards a supercharger. However, I'd like to hear about any other forced induction kits, their performance, and their reliability. Somebody spawn a new thread you have any info.

RAO, I'm glad you're willing to keep the question of the Rimmer Supercharger as civil as possible. I remember when it was said that you returned the unit. At the time I wondered if you would comment on it. I didn't read the thread where it was made into a personal attack on you. I'm glad I didn't cause from the sounds of it you were explaining yourself rather well and your reasoning for returning the product. Thanks for coming on and trying to help out. I know I wasn't aware of the problems with the MY00. Has anybody turbo'd a MY00 yet? Is it also impossible to turbo the MY00?

N/A - no one made a personal attack, I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't attacking Al. I have no idea if anyone has successfully turbo'd a 2000.

I'm glad RAO, that you did not see my post as an attack on you personally as that was not my intent. I did not imply that you were mechanically inept, so I hope that you did not take it that way. I will make sure that you will be taken care of RAO. I will contact Rick Rimmer and talk to him about any issues you may have. We have a lot of correspondance lately. Please email me privately about the particular issues that you have.

If it makes you feel any better, I also had some issues with the kit when I first recieved it. I slowly and methodically worked through each of them. Granted, the issues were more simplistic than what you were dealing with; the kit was designed around the MY99 RS. At this very moment, I am trying to get Brandon Grantham to change the orientation of the Autorotor in relationship to the horizontal plane of the engine to give more access to the spark plugs and valve clearance adjustments.

As far as the MAP sensor issue is concerned, there are several people working on it as I type this. Rick faxed me an email from a guy in Venezuela who had also ordered a 00 kit. This person is an electrical engineer and has found what he believes to be the cause of problems. The findings are that the MAP sensor needs a piggy back sensor to regulate the signal to the ECU. The MAP is telling the ECU to cut fuel under boost. Rimmer hopes to get the 00 kit perfected by the end of July.

Rick Rimmer did declare bankruptcy after an investor cleaned out all bank accounts and left. Not only did the investor take his money, but he took Ricks money and kit deposits as well. Ok, now that Rimmers dirty laundry is hanging out for everyone to see......any more questions?

Rick closed down his original business and website and opened another one. That was the only way to stop the investor from doing more damage. Rick is back on track and in the process of tying up loose ends. I spoke to Rick Rimmer and told him it would be in his best interests to take care of any disgruntled customers. Anyone remember the bad publicity a while back regarding JC Sports? As far as I know, JC Sports has improved upon customer satisfaction and is continuing to improve in other areas as well. As we all know, bad publicity travels much faster, and with more ferver, than good publicity.

Again, I will help anyone that has issues with Rick Rimmer or his company. Just send me an email privately.

Best regards, ARG

Here is what I have to say on the subject. Rimmer was rude and that dude that was with him in silver RS in LA during N vs S meet was rude, the kit looked "ok" but was obviously underequipped with fuel management and gauges. I regularly talk to 2 people that have Rimmer kit on order and simply get amazed on how poor Rimmer's customer service is. They sell a 2000 kit without knowing that it works good and THEN they want to help the customer with it? Pardon me, after 4k+ and lond ass wait it has to work better than the customer expected.

Al, I know that your kit works great on your car. What I don't know for a fact, but pretty sure about is that the content of origial Rimmer parts in your kit is minimal. Knowing you I am sure you redid most of the stuff and used your own parts. Not everyone is a tech guru like you. When people see "bolt on" and buy it, it has to bolt on.

On a scale from 1-10 I would give that Supercharger Kit a 3.

[This message has been edited by Imprezer (edited June 25, 2000).]

As you can see fome my pics in the members section, I did modify the kit extensively. And you are correct, I am a perfectionist. Being a perfectionist really sucks. I wish there was a pill I could take to make me "normal." I have a bad habit of riding in other people's cars and telling them everything that is wrong with it. Most people don't want to know what's wrong with there cars! http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Remember, I did take delivery of the FIRST MY99 supercharger kit. I worked on it for two solid weeks, perfecting every single part of the kit. I wish I had the time, I would drive to Colorado and show Brandon how I modified the kit.

I would give my kit at least a 9 http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/tongue.gif

Al, I would probably give your kit a 10 and that is exaclty my point. You kit and original Rimmer kit are totally different. You should take over whats left of that wannabe company and show them what needs to be done in order to satisfy customers instead of pissing them off to a point where they no longer want to keep the car they once really liked.

I have a question.

rao, did they provide a new MAP sensor? It seems elementary that a MAP equipped NA car would have only the capacity to measure about atmospheric and that any positive pressure (boost) would necessitate a new sensor. That's why TEC-II (and lot of others) come with a variety of sensors dependant on the manifold pressure.

Just curious...

Just a note, and I'm not an electrical engineer or anything - just what I'm believing I understand...

From what I understand is that the MAP sensor does not regulate the air/fuel ratio, but rather it is compared with the throttle position and the ECU uses an internal "map" for the air/fuel ratio. Hence the run rich problem with an intake.

Now if you put positive pressure here rather then vacuum, you either 1 - confuse the hell out of the ECU, or 2 - have a MAP sensor that doesn't read positive pressure (as stated above).

A while back I had read that someone had to relocate their MAP sensor before the (don't remember if it was SC or TC) to get good readings and running right. Somehow I doubt it, but you never know.

Colin, they did not provide a different map sensor, but that was not the problem. Typical practice (see Jackson Racing for how they deal with this for map sensor equuipped hondas) is to relocate the map sensor so that it continues to see vacuum only. The map sensor supplies voltage in proportion to the amount of vacuum. There are map sensors designed to see boost (I had one for my additional injector controller) and their response is more complicated - they will produce a signal of close to 0v when in vacuum and will produce about 2v at atmosperic and 5v at 1 bar (or 2 bar or whatever their max is - at least for the typical GM sensor used by most people). You can't just substitute a different MAP sensor in place of the stock one, because the ecu will not be able to deal with it - even if you could find a sensor that would fit - the outputs are totally different.

Turbocharging / Supercharging a car with a factory MAP sensor ie. Hondas is easy to get around. What you do is remove the MAP sensor from the intake manifold, and attatch a vacuum line to the hole where the MAP sensor was. Then you put a check valve (available from f-max, www.f-max.com) (http://www.f-max.com)) on a T fitting and put it in line before the MAP, and attatch the MAP on the other end of the vacuum line. It will allow the MAP to read vacuum, but when the turbo/supercharger begins boosting the check valve opens, and allows the positive pressure to escape and tricks the MAP int believing it is at 0 vacuum, just like WOT.

Okay, next question.

How in the hell can that type of adaption come close to properly metering airflow?

These are 2 different ways to approach the problem. By placing the MAP on the non-pressurized side of theintake, it will see full vacuum at WOT, which is what it is supposed to see - fuel delivery is a differnt matter, and that's why you need a FPR or additional injectors. Having the MAP sensor not see boost by using a check valve gives you some different problems, because the MAP sensor will be reporting low load values when the egine is under high load conditions, but it does work and that is how most honda turbos are set up. Remember that a N/A map sensor gives more voltage with more vacuum and a turbo map sensro gives more voltage with more boost.

[This message has been edited by rao (edited June 26, 2000).]

Ok... Once you do the MY2000 MAP sensor like a honda, you should look into an additional injector controller. The Greddy Rebic is bad ass, but it costs like $900. There is one available from ERL called the MF2. It is available at www.fmax.com (http://www.fmax.com) aswell. Then buy 4 440 cc/min injectors and the bungs for them. Then droll a hole in each runner and weld the bung to in, and install the injectors. They are driven by their own MAP sensor, so where the stock one cuts out the one from the injector controller will take over and start firing the additional injectors. That is the best way to go. Rising rate fuel pressure regulators are a cheap, inacurate, and crappy way of adding more fuel.

Dr. you're a little late in the game on this. I had a MF-2, with it's own GM 2 bar MAP sensor and an additional injector, that wasn't the problem. Incidentially, I sold the MF-2 to ARG for use with his water injection system.

I have just run into this MAP problem. My MY00 RS was fitted with the Minnam Stage II turbo kit last week. I can only run 3psi of boost without the ECU pulling back fuel. I was planning on running a replacement ECU (TEC-II or Link), but if this is just a MAP problem, then perhaps the fix is easier than I thought.

Can anyone clearly describe a way to use the stock MAP sensor with boost? Either that, or can someone recommend an aftermarket MAP sensor that will work with the stock ECU? Thanks!

Sean

Glad to see this thread..

I've been really looking at the rimmer kit as an option.. but I've heard things..

Nice to be able to read about everyones experinces...

these are all things to take into consideration when going big with something like this.

I've been talking with Disraeli Wever in Venezuela who has successfully run 8psi of boost on a supercharged MY00 EJ20 Impreza. His fix seems pretty easy.

He uses a J&S Fuel Controller to vary the MAP sensor's voltage. Basically, it's a voltage clamping device that limits the voltage delivered to the ECU by the MAP.

His MAP was sending 3.85 volts to the ECU under WOT before his supercharger was installed. When the boost was turned up to 8psi, he was seeing about 5 volts from the MAP. So he used the J&S Fuel Controller to limit the voltage delivered to the ECU to about 4.65 volts. This way, the ECU delivers a ton of fuel (whatever the map is for 4.65 volts) at 8psi of boost. Make sense? I hope this works :)

Sean

Disraeli Wever's setup is the old Eaton based Rimmer system and his car is a 2.0 liter MAP sensor engine not available in the US. I don't know if it has the map sensor in the manifold like the RS or on the throttle body like the 2000 Legacy. I suspect it is on the throttle body because that is why his map sensor voltage went up - it was seeing more vacuum than before.

Once again, I would be very interested if anyone has has success in installing the Rimmer Autorotor based kit on a US spec 2.5RS - I do not believe that it has been done.

Hey if you get the kit for me, I'll make it work. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Doh, that'd put me in SMod, though. Oh well... I'd put up with the class for that, i think. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

I would love to install a rimmer and get it operating for you all, but I have yet to hear a response from anyone that I have made enquires too.

Supposedly they have an eaton pdp on the ST-X and it "works" there. I think that is the exact same sohc 2.5liter that is in the RS, but I have gotten no information confirming or denying anything there either. What are they using for a ECU and MAP sensor with that?
If anyone can get some answers about the ST-X you may find a solution to supercharging the 2000RS.

-p

Rimmer had no connection whatsoever with the design of the ST-X. I believe it was done by someone in Michigan. The details were posted a while back.

Sean is correct. The only way to make this work at all with the stock ECU is to clamp the output voltage level.

Under WOT the car will see close to atmospheric pressure on a N/A car...not full vacuum.

JC sports has a device that is already set based on tuning on a Turbo'd 2000 RS. Contact them for a solution to pressurizing the 2000RS's.

Mark
Subeless
00' S4

Has anyone tried the new kit (on a MY00 or MY99)?

Oooo.. I didn't even know about the problems with the MY00 and the Rimmer kit. Wow, guess I haven't been reading the right threads.

I hope you everything works out good for you guys.

Me personally, I've been staring at the wrecked turbo Impreza on the SpeedLabs 'engine' webpage. $3500 bux huh? Decisions, decisions.

pwrup25RS,

what is the link to that turbo engine?

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

http://www.speedlab.com/used/engine.html

Just scroll down, it was a nasty sight at first and then I thought, 'hmmm, I can benifit from this!'

I might just go with next years engine tho..I want to go legal and all that other stuff..

that is correct, the STX project going on right now has absolutely NOTHING to do with rimmer. A local Detroit firm is doing it, but I don't recall their name.

Oh, and they are having LOTS of problems if that makes anybody feel any better.

Ryan

I don't want to let this thread die, because I want to see the Rimmer kit get healthy. I really want a reliable 220-something HP in my RS. So, please be patient my ignorance if I ask old or pointless questions.

1. Is the MAP sensor (and I assume resultant lean run) the only problem with the Rimmer kit, or are there others?

2. Are there any Subaru-trained techs out there with access to the Helms manuals? Can we get some specs on the MAP sensor pressure and voltage ranges?

3. Can anyone find out what they use on the EJ20 engines?

4. Is anybody familiar with the manufactures of these sensors (or is that Fuji Heavy)? Can we get a replacement sensor that gives a reasonable voltage for the boost/vac range needed?

It seems to me that we have the expertise on this forum to solve this issue. I really want one of these kits, but only after I've seen a convincing answer for problems I've heard and only after I've seen some dyno results (oh, and after my stock stops dropping http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/wink.gif ). Rimmer, are you listening?

I don't want to let this thread die, because I want to see the Rimmer kit get healthy. I really want a reliable 220-something HP in my RS. So, please be patient my ignorance if I ask old or pointless questions.

1. Is the MAP sensor (and I assume resultant lean run) the only problem with the Rimmer kit, or are there others?

[No one knows for sure that the problem is the MAP sensor - it may be something else, such as the additional air injection assist selenoid, so that is hard to say. Given that the kit has only run on a MY2000 for less than a mile, that is hard to say, but there are probably not other significant problems]

2. Are there any Subaru-trained techs out there with access to the Helms manuals? Can we get some specs on the MAP sensor pressure and voltage ranges?

[The Subaru factory manual was used to troubleshoot. The voltages and pinouts are well known and are published in a few places.]

3. Can anyone find out what they use on the EJ20 engines?

[I believe that there is exactly 1 kit on a ej20, MAP sensor equipped car, and I don't know what was involvedin making that work if it works, and I'm pretty sure Rimmer dosen't know either.]

4. Is anybody familiar with the manufactures of these sensors (or is that Fuji Heavy)? Can we get a replacement sensor that gives a reasonable voltage for the boost/vac range needed?

[It is made by Bosch, and there is not a replacement that is the same size, but even if there was, the ecu would not work properly with a "turbo" MAP sensor]

It seems to me that we have the expertise on this forum to solve this issue. I really want one of these kits, but only after I've seen a convincing answer for problems I've heard and only after I've seen some dyno results (oh, and after my stock stops dropping ). Rimmer, are you listening?

[I don't think that they are. Still no phone call from them, week 7]

Man this is a bummer.

Okay I have a solution, Rimmer does not have a good business system, that is why his investor pulled out (Can't figure out why he got in). Anyway even if he has the expertise, he doens't have the busines accument o get it right so if he doens't hire somebody to run his company while he does the tech work we are never going to see a good kit from him.

Jackson Racing does have a good business system, they do have the technical knowledge, and they have the bussiness savvy to put out a good kit.

For my money we need to sell the idea to JR not to Rimmer if we want a good kit.

Jackson Racing! That's a damn good idea.

Also raises a question. Jackson normally uses the Roots-type superchargers don't they? My understanding is that these provide more boost down low then the Autorotor centrifugal type. Is this true? That's part of my reasons for wanting to see a dyno chart.

From what I understand the Eaton unit is generally more efficient as well, but don't quote me on that I haven't researched this yet.

I'm just looking at the problem as a business system issue. JR has a good business system end of story, if you want the quality kit JR needs to be convinved that it is good ofr his business system. The guy is in business to make money, the fact that he makes it on cars is just a bonus IMO.

The Autorotor is not a centrifugal supercharger. Like the Roots/Eaton blower, the Autorotor is a positive displacement suparcharger. Except that it is more efficient due to its internal compression ratio. In simple terms, like a turbo, it's a true compressor, whereas the Eaton is a blower. In terms of boost response, the autorotor is superior the the Eaton SC. The only area which the Eaton may edge out the Autorotor is reliability and quality control. Hope that helps...

shiv

Thanks for the tech tidbit Shiv.

So as we can see part of Jackson Racing's business system is to use the more reliable and higher quality supercharger. I'll bet that he would switch to the autorotor if quality and reliability were to increase, but not before. Why? A customer with a broken or improperly working supercharger isn't going to reccomend his kit to anybody.

Yes the Autorotor is more efficient. For starters, it does not heat the air as much and takes less HP from the engine under boost. The Autorotor uses 23 HP at max boost as where the Eaton uses 33 HP.

As far as reliability goes, the Autorotor is used by Kenny Bell on the Camaros and Mustangs, full size Chevy and Ford trucks. The Eaton has its own oil supply that you are supposed to change at 100,000 miles. YUK!

The Autorotor is like a turbo in that it uses engine oil for lubrication.

Ricks "investor" is being sued for breach of contract and fraud. Please do not post "baseless conjecture" in this thread.

There is a guy named Disraeli Wever in Venezuela that has the Rimmer Kit for his EJ20. His Impreza is also a 2000 model and uses the MAP sensor. Below is a post from him regarding how to fix the MAP problem:

Yes I did, I have done many things to fix this trouble in imprezas with map sensor, if you want to know my progrees check out in the I forum "the challenge of an impreza tuner part I, II and III, for further information, you can write me, here is a copy of one email that I sent to Brandom G. of rimmer eng. about my kits, troubles etc...

> Dear Mr. Brandon.
>
> As a buyer of the rimmer kit, as a member of many imprezas clubs around
the
> world, and as a friend I need to tell you my experiences with the kit.
>
> In first place, the big detail in my car is that my EFI works with Map
> sensor as 2000 imprezas does, actually I know your having troubles with
> those cars in your new kit, as ths kits developes 4-5 psi at idle, I`ll
talk
> about that later.
>
> As my car uses manifold pressure sensor wich estimates the amount of air,
> actually it doesn`t measure the quantity, it only calculates.. it became a
> real headache with fueling capacity, as soon as dramaticaly changes the
map
> value to the ecu, to a some non prestablished values, the ECU turns in
> something like a fuel cut mode that you can find on turbo OEM models when
> trying to rising boost, just to prevent engine failure, bur the things
just
> get worse because the lack of fuel. Timming is very agresive in these cars
> not only 19 or 20 degrees of advance and it`s related all sensors
including
> map.
> When boost is applied at wot, map values changes so hard, that the preset
> sofware for NA subarus thought these signal as an error, dropping injector
> duty cycle, it is not a very good idea to change map to a non pressurized
> place in your engine, since s/c sucks from behind the map will send very
> little voltage to ECU, turning it to thinking it`s always on vacum, and
> leaving the injector duty cycle down.
>
> You need the Map sensor in it`s OEM place, but you need a variable
clamping
> voltage to intercep map voltage and keeping it on a straigth line to the
> ECU, so it won`t turn into fuel cut mode, well for example:
>
> On naturally aspirated mode, supercharger belt disconected:
> At idle, map voltage +-00.01 votls
> AT WOT, map voltage +-3.57 volts.
> With supercharger, eaton unit, o boost at idle
> At idle, map voltage +-00.01 volts.
> AT wot, map voltage, error, more than 4.97 volts, fuel cut mode, no matter
> high fuel pressure, injector cycle drops to 25-29.
>
> I got the help form J&S electronics, this device called fuel controller,
> take map voltage, and with a variable voltage ouput line, you decide wich
> will be the maximun voltage to the ecu, this tunning is done in real time.
> Mine is set at full counterclowise, maximun ouput of 4.65 volts to the
ECU,
> there is a led wich advices ou that is cutting the signal form map, so you
> know it is working, and the injector duty cicle is at top, where it is
> suposed to be.
>
> Then tunning the Bell unit is a snap, but you need to repalce stock fuel
> pump, many people uses RX 7 twin turbo unit, but I think it`s to expensive
> and I preffer to use the jackson racing fuel pump for honda civics, it`s
> just bolt on, and that will give the desired 80 psi at 7-9 psi of boost,
> where my Air fuel ratio references shows me that my engine is running
safely
> rich, starting point should be above 50 on rail, so I`ll eliminate the
flat
> spot during hard changes to wot, of course lot`s of fuel consume, but it
> will depend in your drive style during traffic and highways. You can play
> with original vaccum for the OEM regulator of subaru, if you remove it
> you`ll get a higher pressure, the you`ll tune your bell unit to obtain the
> desired pressure points. Remember stock fuel pump it`s only good up to 58
> psi, if you set the starting point at 50 psi of fuel pressure and then try
> to yield more than 60, you will have drop pressure drops to critical
points,
> engine hesitation, etc etc etc.. blowing piston etc, etc.
> Next step when lack of fuel is fixed, is timming controlling... apexi ITC
> unit in my car was a succes, no Check engine light at all, never, ever, I
> don`t know wahy US guys got this, the trouble might be in the ECU
> intercepting wriring, and getting plus and minus cables from sensor etc.
in
> my car there was a typical - for both sensors and in the instruction
manual
> there was a typical wiriing for this, the other thing is to know wich
would
> be positive from sensor, yoy`ll use tech experience with an osciloscope.
> then I adjusted timming (without water injection in this time, just to get
> results, if the system get out of water or whatever) I advance timming in
> 800 and 2400 rpms range, and retard 4 to 5 degrees in 4000 and 5600 rpms,
> pinging from engine may ocurr during hot days or going uphill, so you need
> to set that for a low knowledge guy very conservative.... but there is
also
> a trouble, to many timming retard, to many fuel pressure, to many back
fire,
> high EGT, possible valves burning and excesive pressure for them... so
> tunning it`s a deal, what you desire, what you need, what you know, is
what
> you can offer, less timming retard means also less power, then you need a
> balance for each customer desire, betewen fuel pressure and timming. The
> solution for this is Water injection for those ho wants all power with no
> detonation, rich conditions and low Exhaust gas temps.... the balance of
> these 3 variables will determinates engine performance and live, little
> water, good fuel, little timming retard.. good fuel, good pressure, more
> water, more advance, more power...
> About spark plugs?. one step colder are esay to find, maybe 1 degree of
> timming advance will be the result up from 4000 rpms, but the fuel needed
> may destroy sparks more offten, remember colder stage means also less
> capacity of something like autocleaning... then you`ll need a balance on
> your needs.. it can be done, I did it... I want whatever I want for my
> engine and from my very nice supercharger, that maybe ocasionates many
> troubles to people, but not for it strucuture, the trouble was into
thinking
> was a bolt on device, I think in elcectronics area you should make more
> researches.
>
> Unfortunaly, my friend car, who decided to take advance for the
> supercharger, and without the knowledge, blow a piston, he just read your
> technical report on the web and didm`t follow my experience, then there is
> the result on less than 200 km with the s/C belt on, now more than $2000
USD
> to repair the engine with new set of piston, rings etc etc...
>
> I got a nice friend in England at ERL, Mr. Richard Lamb who guides me in
> water injection tunning, I have to say thanks to him, for his patience and
> nice job and service.
>
> About your new kit, very nice, of course the trouble of idle in 2000
mapped
> imprezas, 5 psi at idle, well the engine may be very unestable, when map
> values send more then 3.50 volts, and there is no balance with TPS voltage
> for the ECU..then you must find some device to fool these signal at idle
and
> the cut it at full boost to a some voltage that could be managed by ECU,
but
> wait a second, why not going to Bypass valve, maybe introduce a new way,
pie
> or something to eliminate boost from idle, that`right, it can be done,
> change the desing, so you`ll never get any variation at idle...
>
> Piggy back computer for fueling like SAFC it worhtless, you can as rich as
> ypo want with the Bell unit, maybe for some minor adjustments in RPM
range,
> but only for those very fine guys who wants everything in sweet spots.
>
> I hope you enjoy it, maybe you already know all this, but I expend nothing
> charing you these info..
>
>
> Sincerely yours.
>
> Disraeli Wever
> Venezuela
> Rimmer kit at 9 psi, water injected and many other mods....

Wow! Thanks Arg, Rao, & Shiv. Fantastic info.

Apparently I was confused on a couple if things. I certainly appreciate the clarifications. I would like to test my understanding of a couple of items and will enumerate those in seperate posts.

I certainly don't wish to make any assertions about the state or practice of Rimmer's business. I have no knowledge of his problems and I wish him the best. I have spoken with Brandon once on the telephone (6-months or more ago) and he seemed very knowledgible and helpful to me.

-Red

RE: Supercharger types

I think I was confused by the Autorotor. After Shiv's description, I've looked into it a little more (I found a nice wire-frame drawing on http://www.opconab.com/, just follow the Autorotor links) and I believe I now understand.

The Autorotor is a Rootes type supercharger where the rotors have been twisted into a screw shape. Presumably this provides some additional efficiencies? A centrifugal supercharger has an impeller (fan), like a turbocharger or a jet engine.

One of the things I very much like about the Rimmer kit is the fact that it uses engine oil instead of having its own supply (and thus gets changed every time I change engine oil). However, I had heard that it was more reliable then the Eaton, not less. (Just don't ask me where I heard that, I couldn't tell you.)

Shiv,

Perhaps there's a good SCC article in this. A comparison of forced induction technologies. Turbo vs. SC. Rootes vs. centrifugal, and variations on each. Discussion and enumeration of manufacturers. Discussion and enumeration of kit suppliers. I'm already a subscriber, but I'd tell my friends to buy their own copy. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

I'm afraid I'm still a little uncertain of the difference between a blower and a compressor. Can you point me to some references so I can bone-up a little more?

Thanks again,

-Red

-edit: OK, for some reason, that link doesn't work. Just use Rimmer's page (http://www.rimmersuperchargers.com/) and follow links, then select the Autorotor logo.

[This message has been edited by Red-Impreza (edited July 02, 2000).]

Brandon and I had communicated with Disraeli Wever prior to Rimmer shipping me my kit and Brandon assured me that he had the MAP sensor issues worked out and he was sure that Disraeli had not properly installed his kit.
I do not know if his MY2000 is the same as ours (MAP sensor in intake or on throttle body), and I don't know that I agree with the way Disraeli solved the problem (the MAP seeing vacuum should not have caused the ecu to run lean - vacuum would have been the expected reading for a N/A engine running WOT), but in either case this just reinforces what I said above and what is the main problem - Rimmer has no idea how the system works and they should not have shipped the kit until they had fully tested it on a MY2000 and until it worked. I am glad Disraeli had solved his problem before he had the problems his friend had, and I am glad I removed the kit from my car before I got to experience the joy of rebuilding the engine. The fact that a thrid party apparently figured out how to solve the problem just makes Rimmer's actions look even worse as far as I'm concerned.



[This message has been edited by rao (edited July 02, 2000).]

RE: the problems with the Rimmer SC kit.

If I understand our friend Disraeli Wever's letter, here are the main problems with the Rimmer kit.

1. Map sensor voltage too high under WOT.
2. Boost at idle.

Although I'm a little confused by his use of +/- voltages (is the MAP output AC or DC?) it seems like the MAP sensor is doing its job and outputting a voltage that is proportional to absolute manifold pressure (indicating to me that it is not confused by the difference between pressure and vacuum - thus the "absolute"). Is this correct?

The problem is that the ECU is not programmed to handle the elevated readings correctly. I would think, since I'm a SW Engineer, that the best answer for this would be reprogram the ECU and burn a new ROM. However, that would require engineering support from Subaru (and possibly a new DAC to read the sensor, or other ECU changes) or a better hacker then myself. I don't see that happening.

Is it possible that a simple diode clamp would suffice? From Disraeli's readings, if we could clamp the voltage (again, if it's DC) to a maximum in the range of 3.50 V to 4.65 V then the ECU would think we were under WOT and not limit the injector duty cycle and not cut fuel. Then, we could fix the fuel-supply problem with the rising-rate pressure regulator (already in the kit, I believe) and a high pressure fuel pump (which perhaps, needs to be added to the kit). Are there any EE's out who can tell us if this makes sense.

I don't know if boost at idle is a problem if the ECU is doing the right stuff, but it does seem unnecessary. Shouldn't there be a bypass valve to prevent this anyway?

Beyond that, I have a couple more questions. One, would there be a problem with the fuel lines handling a higher pressure pump? Two, would timing be an issue that has to be addressed or is it not a problem at reasonable boost levels?

I don't want to represent myself as having the level of experience as many of the people in this group (or as having any level of experience, for that matter), but I'd like to think I have an understanding of the issues and the physics involved. Please do correct me if I don't.

Thanks again to all,

-Red

"Is it possible that a simple diode clamp would suffice? From Disraeli's readings, if we could clamp the voltage (again, if it's DC) to a maximum in the range of 3.50 V to 4.65 V then the ECU would think we were under WOT and not limit the injector duty cycle and not cut fuel. Then, we could fix the fuel-supply problem with the rising-rate pressure regulator (already in the kit, I believe) and a high pressure fuel pump (which perhaps, needs to be added to the kit). Are there any EE's out who can tell us if this makes sense."

This is EXACTLY what Disraeli did. I believe it will work, but I'm not sure. I'm running into the exact same problem with my Minnam Stage II turbo kit...crank the boost, the fuel is cut. I have the J&S Fuel Controller (voltage clamp) and the Supra TT fuel pump installed. The Bell FPR (20002) is on its way.

I was going to install the FPR and be done with it, but there is still the problem of our little itsy-bitsy injectors. I don't feel comfortable running 8+ psi of boost on our stock 280cc/min injectors. So, I decided that bigger injectors were in order. But with bigger injectors, a new ECU is needed. So, I'm currently looking at the various ECUs on the market.

I'm so sick of spending money on this car...I just want to do it, do it right, and be done with it. :)

Sean

Rao,

Hmmm... I really hate to get involved in this, but I don't want to loose your input.

I think you were wise to pull the kit from your car. I definately am not putting one on my car until I see some answers and some test results. I agree that none of this reflects well on Rimmer, but I'm not going to beat up on him for it. He really does need to make this right with you and anyone else who gave him money and I hope he's successful with his legal problems so he can do that. I'd much rather have him concentrating on these engineering issues then legal ones. I understand your frustration. If it were my money and my car I'd be singing a completely different tune, so I GREATLY appreciate you sharing your experience with us so that we don't have to have the same experience.

I say all this because I don't want to trivialize your complaints. I truly do appreciate your warning and your advice. I just don't really feel qualified to comment on the situation.

I really hope this all works out.

- Red

Sean,

Still lookin' for various ECUs on the market http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

-shiv

my best guess on the voltage is DC. Considering the car has a batt. I dunno 4 sure tho

so my 99rs isnt all that bad anyhow http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

From what I have gathered from reading several different threads, people that have bought turbos for their 2000 Subarus are also having problems with the MAP sensor issue. Obviously, the MAP issue is not limited to superchargers only. If someone with a turbo kit from JC Sports or Minam are also havings problems with their 2000s, then why isn't someone "flaming" JC Sports or Minam for not having the kit work correctly the first time?

RAO got the first kit for a 2000.
I got the first kit for a 1999.

I'm sure that Rimmer, JC SPorts, Minam and whoever else will solve the 2000 MAP sensor issue with our cars.

One thing that you should also know, at WOT the MAP sensor does not read vacuum bewcause there isn't any. At WOT, there is very little, it any, manifold vacuum. I don't know if it is possible, but I have heard from other turbo people that a GM MAP sensor off of a turbo Grand National will work with our ECU. The GM MAP sensor reads not only vacuum, but boost as well. The voltage levels may not be correct, but that issue could be resolved with a piggy back controller. Don't quote me on this as I am not sure if it is even possible, it is something I remember reading on another list.

ARG

For those of you who are worried about elevated fuel pressures from the RX7 TT or Supra TT pumps, don't be. I am running 80 PSI of fuel pressure (at max boost) with no ill effects. No leaks or bulging fuel lines.

ARG

Sean,

That's exactly the situation (a money pit), that I want to avoid. Presently, I love my car. But, I hate to see it brushed off as a cute little compact because it only has 165 HP. I'm not a boost junky. I'm not looking to break the 10s 1/4 mi. I just think this car needs 2 1/4 hecto-ponies. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Would some aftermarket firm _please_ make a reliable (and tested) forced induction kit.

-Red-(will-work-for-more-horse-power)-Impreza

You should be able to install a 2 Bar MAP sensor in place of the stock 1 Bar MAP sensor. Instead of atmospheric (0psi of boost) pressure reading 5v, it will now become close to 2.5v. Now, you'l need 14.7psi of boost to see 5v from your MAP. This should eliminate the boost cut you guys are running into.

But with the 2 bar map sensor, you're probably going to run into a whole bunch of other tuning issues since your ECU is only seeing 1/2 the MAP voltage it would otherwise see. Major lean run. I would be suprised if an S-AFC would be flexible enough to correct for all of this.

shiv

Al,

I'm not flaming Rimmer, I am just stating facts, all of which I are independantly verifiable. I've still left out some good ones - ask me about the size of the belt supplied with kit sometime.

If I bought a kit from JC Sports that didn't work and I determined that JC had never even tested it to determine wether it would work or that JC Sports didn't have any idea of all of the changes from 99 to 2000, I would be happy to flame them http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif, but I did not have that experience with them, I had it with someone else and I am still not flaming them.

Shiv,

With the GM 2 bar MAP sensor, I believe that that would create a lot of problems because the response curve of a turbo MAP sensor is completely different from that of a N/A MAP sensor, but I'm sure better minds than mind could make it work. I'm not sold on the voltage clamp being the best solution either, but once again, better minds than mine could probably make it work.

Everyone else,

I hope that someone figures this problem out, I really do.

The bottom line for me is that this discussion just reinforces my belief about my experience with Rimmer - and none of that is good.

Does anybody know at what voltage does the MAP sensor sends to the ECU that causes the problem? I did a little research on MAP sensors on the 'net, and one solution that I've come across to "fool" a MAP sensor when increasing boost, is to use a zener diod to "bleed" the excess voltage to ground. Here's the link to the article that I found -- the site is for turbocharged Chrystlers, but if it works for them, maybe it'll work for us MY2000 folks as well!
http://www2.ios.com/~gdonovan/turbo_map.html

LaterZ!
Darren!!

ps -- perhaps this belongs in the tech section?

Perhaps this discussion does belong in the tech section.

BTW: My understanding is that a reverse biased zener diode is the most common way to make a voltage clamp. (I'm sure the EE's out there know more complicated, active ways, but I've always seen it done with a zener.)

That's why I was thinking it would make an inexpensive solution. Adds practically nothing to the cost of an SC kit, eliminates the incorrect response by the ECU, and allows us to solve the fuel needs with a rising rate pressure regulator. It all sounds good in theory, but somebody needs to do some dyno testing and measurement of the MAP sensor voltage, injector duty cycles, and A/F ratios at different loads to see if we're going to blow up our engines with this thing.

Where's Joel 1.8/2.5/JWD Gat when you need him???

Here's my experience with MAP voltage. At 3psi of boost, the MAP sends 4.865 volts to the ECU at WOT. At 7psi of boost, the MAP sends 4.865 volts to the ECU at WOT. At 3psi, my car runs fine...nice and rich. At 7psi it runs extremely lean.

The MAP voltage is the same in both cases...so the only thing I can think of doing is to add a FPR to the equation and up the fuel pressure mechanically, rather than electrically.

These voltages were taken from the S-AFC in Sensor Check mode. If you have any other questions, let me know.

Sean

Sean -- you're taking these readings off of your S-AFC in sensor check mode. That means I don't have to chop up my wires then! http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/wink.gif

So for anyone else who is still NA and has a S-AFC hooked up on a MY2000, what kind of voltage to you read from your MAP sensor at WOT? Is it 4.865v as quoted by Sean? What about at other throttle positions -- what does the MAP sensor return?

LaterZ!
Darren!!

"One thing that you should also know, at WOT the MAP sensor does not read vacuum bewcause there isn't any. At WOT, there is very little, it any, manifold vacuum." - ARG

I don't see how that could be... it is drawing air and there is an obstruction in it's path, therefore there should be some sort of vacuum... (thinking out loud here) Unless of course after a point it just draws enough air to not have a vaccum anymore. *shrug*

Darren-

At idle (700rpm in my car), the MAP sends about 0.800 volts to the ECU.

Under hard deceleration, it sends 0.365 volts.

Another thing I should mention. The reason that my car's MAP sensor sends 4.865 volts to the ECU under 3psi and 7psi is that the J&S Fuel Controller (voltage clamp) is limiting the voltage to the ECU. If it wasn't there, the MAP would send something closer to 5.000 volts to the ECU.

Hope this helps!

Sean

[This message has been edited by Sean McElderry (edited July 02, 2000).]

8complex,

You may be thinking of the venturi effect. I believe that manifold vacuum is high during low load and low throttle. (Throttle restricts air flow to manifold, pistons keep trying to fill cylinders with air.) During WOT the manifold pressure would be much closer to 1 atmosphere (about 1 bar or 14.something psi), since the throttle is wide open to the atmosphere.

It seems like Sean is seeing different results then Disraeli did. Does the 2.5 have a different MAP sensor then the 2.0? If our sensor already clamps at the max voltage expected by the ECU then we shouldn't see the problems Disraeli did. We still have to get more fuel to the cylinders. Perhaps the rising rate FPR and an 80 psi fuel pump will let us go to 5 or 6 psi safely (maybe 7 or 8 with the intercooler, nine or ten with a water injector... sorry loosing my mind again.)

Doh! I forgot about Sean's fuel controller. I guess we've gotta' get one.

Red-Impreza - True, true... I hadn't thought about that, but it still stands that there is some vacuum. *shrug* I guess that is what I get for not going to bed and instead staying up and visiting the iClub. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Yeah me too (staying up on the computer instead of being smart and crashing for the night). Oh well. From the experiences of others here, it certainly sounds like Rimmer (and other forced induction kit makers) should be able to solve this. I have some hope that I will be able to get a good kit somewhere if I don't go overboard on the boost.

I sure am glad you guys are bringing this out in the iclub site .I was considering a turbo or supercharger.After reading this info I think I will wait until next year to but one .If nothing is resolved with them I'll get the new turbo Impreza when it comes out.Then I can yell at the dealership if not working correctly.

Sean..

THE man is in da house http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Yup!!! A certain person from the UK is staying at my place at the mo.

So RING me and we'll get him to come down and sort your motor out http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Richard

Thanks for the offer, Richard, but I'll be going with Shiv's TEC-II kit. I do want to meet Jay_UK, though...how long is he staying in the US?

Sean

Hi All,

I was just wondering if anything more has been done about this issue. It seemed we were making good progress and the next step was finding someone to test on the EJ25 engine... or has this moved to tech?

I'll check there; I've been in Europe for seven months and haven't had much time to check the board so I'm waaay behind. I've just read up on this thread tonight. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/cool.gif

Hi All,

I was just wondering if anything more has been done about this issue. It seemed we were making good progress and the next step was finding someone to test on the EJ25 engine... or has this moved to tech?

I'll check there; I've been in Europe for seven months and haven't had much time to check the board so I'm waaay behind. I've just read up on this thread tonight. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/cool.gif

So how did this come back from the dead? No one has posted since July 6th. So why is it here? Is someone pissed? One of the editers upset?

Lets see if I can drag up some old posts about JC Sports..........

Aaaahhh! It's back from the dead (this thread). http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Zaphod (is that Beblbrox (sp?) ?),

To answer your question, rumor has it that Rimmer has solved this issue with an AFC, although I've heard no confirmation of this. Maybe someone else has. However, many others have decided that this whole piggyback computers thing is just too risky and have decided to get a TEC-II (fully progamable ECU) from Vishnu Performance - www.vishnuperformance.com (http://www.vishnuperformance.com) - (Shiv's company ).

Check out the Vishnu forum at the bottom of the i-Club forum's page. There's also an interesting thread in the tech forum on blowers and blown engines.

That should bring you up to date,

-Red

Just letting you guys know that JCSports has solved the MAP problem! We have a chip for $200. Dont ask me how it works but we have installed 4 kits on the MY00 with no boost problems.

Kevin@JCSports

Rimmer hasn't solved anything.

JC Sports is using a voltage clamp on the MAP sensor.

On the subject of efficient supercharger's; I believe the Whipple design is the most efficient at about 80%.
(something like that)

my $0.02

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/

Whipple uses the Autorotor supercharger, maade by Opcon. It is very efficient.

Um... Rimmer uses the Autorotor too. On the newer ones.

rao knows that, he had one and returned it. Probably hasn't gotten his money back yet either.

You should know this Red, you've been posting all throughout this old thread.

No, JCSports does not use a voltage clamp to solve the MAP sensor problem but Im not at liberty to say how it works. I wish I could!


Kevin@JCSports

Rimmer did solve it. Voltage clamp. It cost a lot less than $200 too!

"It has been done" I don't mind having the only supercharged RS that runs properly. It makes my car more "unique" http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

ARG, supercharged and intercooled and running perfect. Just ask anyone at Leons Paint Ball Park in Corona.

If Rimmer solved it, they certainly didn't do it themselves. 5 months later and still no one has actually seen a 2000 Impreza RS with a Rimmer supercharger kit that runs at all, let alone that runs well.

I'm sure JC Sport's "mystery fix" works great as well.

Here we come to JC Sports' attitude again. Guys, I wouldn't buy a damn thing from you if you didn't explain what it did first and it seemed like a mystery fix in the beginning place. Just keep it in mind for the next time someone is looking for a fix for that exact problem.

Personally I'm planning on going FI over the winter and if there isn't a direct fix out for my car, I will end up using a replacement ECU (not TEC-II).

We installed a Minnam Stage II Turbo kit on a MY00 2.5RS a few months back. The car is running 7-8psi with no problems. It's still using the stock ECU, and ran a 14.1 @ 97mph in our lovely 130+ track temp - Texas heat.

I'm more than happy to pass along any information I can about the car. Basically, here's a run down of the alphabet soup that went into it, as the owner wasn't ready to put in a programmable ECU (Haltech, TEC, etc).

J&S Fuel Cut (Voltage Clamp)
J&S Knock Retard System (must have!)
APEX AFC (bought previous to turbo..now just eye candy)
APEX ITC (pulls timing back starting at 3600 RPM)
Boost Dependent FPR
Stock Fuel Pump & Injectors
Profec B Boost Controller
NGK BKR7EVX-11 Plugs gapped to 0.040"
+ alot of tuning

From my experience with this car, I think someone would be hard pressed to make a simple "bolt-on" forced induction kit without either running very low boost, or including some sort of engine management system. You can't trick the injectors into staying open longer, as you can with the MY99-older MAF setups, because you have to clamp the voltage to the MAP. The AFC, for instance, just tells the computer you're getting a higher MAP signal in an effort to add more fuel but that MAP signal has to be clamped to prevent fuel cut. So, you end up right back where you started. Plus, the higher compression and more agressive timing map adds to the fun <sarcasm>.

The MY99-older models with the MAF are MUCH easier to turbocharge. That's why you can make a MY99 2.5RS run 13's without too much trouble. It takes more work with a MY00 though.

I could be wrong though. Any MY00 w/ stock ECU running 13's?

Trey
CobbTuning.com

Hey ARG ...I seem to be one of the few in your corner simple because ...I love a S/C over Turbos at ANY level for MYSELF!....So maybe to solve all theses "problems" since rimmer isn't here to try and defend, and just end up getting flamed (see JC sports), itself ...Can you please enlighten me at least... what voodo it is that you did to make your S/C work? would you be avil. to help people with the install? Because if I had the money and I was going FI i would want a Rimmer "tuned by ARG" Supercharger! http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

It's funny, a lot of people think that I just bolted on a supercharger and drove merrily into the sunset in a state of bliss.

It didn't work out that way. It took me about 3 months to "dial" it in. I have learned MUCH about supercharging during my slow descent into forced induction hell. If I had the resources, I would completely re-design the kit, knowing what I know now. What I wanted was a Subaru that ran like a supercharged 2000 Bonneville. Well, my Sube doesn't run as refined as the Bonneville. I believe that it could, the capacity to do so exists. The problem is OBDII. With the proper fuel and spark management, the supercharged Sube could run 9-10 psi all day.

If anyone decides to supercharge their RS, I am more than willing to help. Like I said, I have "hands-on" experience.

ARG

Yeah, I didn't re-read the thread before posting and I was a little confused when rao didn't mention the Rimmer Autorotor. I did remember his trouble with the early kit, but I thought it might have been an Eaton, not an Autorotor.

-Red

Red-Impreza - The original kits from Rimmer were Eaton blowers. Those were the ones that you had to install a bump in your hood to close the hood since the pulley was far above the stock components of the engine in the middle/front of the hood.

Trey - Sounds like that car has about the same, if not more, amount of cash into aftermarket electronics then an ECU replacement would be. You know what I'm up for when it gets completed, though. My biggest trouble is that I still don't like any of the TC kits out there right now and noone has come out with a SC kit other then Rimmer "We Don't Really Exist" Engineering.

With the proper fuel and spark management, the supercharged Sube could run 9-10 psi all day.

Hey ARG,

Have you thought about investing in a TEC-II? With your experience with the Rimmer SC you could probably dial it in perfectly. I'm currenty trying to decide between the TEC-II + Rimmer kit and the Vishnu TEC-II + Turbo kit.

-Red

Red - Yeah sure... if you can actually get a hold of Rimmer. I emailed them a month ago and still haven't heard back. *shrug*

When I visited Rimmer a couple of months ago, Brandon who works there told me that they get over 150 emails a day, and if he "took the time to answer them all his girldriend would leave him, and take his dog with her!"

What I don't like about the super charger solution is that I live at 6,000 feet, and a 6 psi stage one S/C with no electronics would climb to 9 psi at sea-level and frag the engine unless I change out the pulley before I go.

Larry www.ImprezaRS.com (http://www.ImprezaRS.com)

...Brandon who works there told me that they get over 150 emails a day, and if he "took the time to answer them all his girldriend would leave him, and take his dog with her!"...

Wow! Now that just shows their care for their customers. And, I think that is the same Brandon that asked me for $50 when I asked him for a ride in his Supercharged RS back when we had a NoCal-SoCal meeting. Isn't that funny? I don't get it, did we ask them to go into business? I don't think so. They make it sound like people just bother them with their stupid e-mails about their stupid money that these people payed long time ago and now they are too busy with their girlfriends and dogs instead of making sure that their customers get what they paid for. This is just funny, although I am sure that those people who have been waiting over a year for their money from RSS, don't find it amusing at all. Guys, I feel for you. http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/mad.gif

Although my personal debate continues, there are two good points in favor of the Vishnu turbo (over the Rimmer + TEC-II).

1. Customer service (it's hard to beat Shiv there).

2. Adaptibilty to altitude. I hadn't given much thought to the last one. Good point Larry.

-Red

Hey Shiv, can you make the turbo scream like an F16? http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif