http://competitionpress.com/covers/coverhome.mv

I like Subys and all, but I'm not quite sure they're worth $32,000. Even with the new six-banger.

heheh....to paraphrase the article, it's no Audi and it's no Volvo, it's a Subaru with an Audi/Volvo price tag!

[This message has been edited by Snoopy (edited August 28, 2000).]

To even come close to outfitting an Audi A4 Avant to match the Outback you will be spending $36,160 - a significant price differential near $4,000. Also, how can you judge the interior fit and finish of the car when you have yet to see it?

The Volvo V40 will come out to around $27,000 but doesn't include AWD, and is smaller. Also, if you want to include sunroofs, etc, the price rises again.

The Passat GLS will set you back around $30,025, but lacks many of the features found on the Subaru.

Maybe Subaru has to introduce a new brand name so the brand conscience morons in the US will buy the car. Why can't people look at the car, drive it, compare it to the market and then decide if its worth the money? Instead, they see its made by Subaru and then decide its not worth it sight unseen.

No wonder Honda invented Acura, and Toyota invented Lexus. Come one people, THINK! Use your noggin' for something besides separating your ears.

Regards,

Tim K.

(PS This rant was not aimed at any one person, but rather a perception generated by reading the Autoweek Article)

edit: actually, truly rich people show very little brand conscienceness. Its the middle class, upper middle class, and well off that are usually very brand conscience.

[This message has been edited by Tim K. (edited August 28, 2000).]

well, I've sat in the new H6 Outback, and it is a considerable step up from Any other Subaru I've seen. No driving impressions yet, but give me a week or two and I'll let you know. I've also done the A4 thing, so the Suby has a lot to live up too.

Like I said, gimme a week or two and I can give you my views after an actual drive perhaps...

Ryan

The V40 shouldn't enter into the equation at all. It is TINY.

Oh yeah those H6 Outbacks comes with Macintosh sound systems which is supposed to be creme de la creme in audio systems.
Is it priced aggresively against an A4 Avant? Or even an A6? Cus the Outback sure has more power than them... Goooo Subaru! http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/wink.gif As long as they keep those price up and reap money and hopefully they would keep the WRX low I am happy.

Or they get greedy and see how much people will pay for 212 hp, and increase the price of the Impreza...
booo
http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/mad.gif http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/mad.gif http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/mad.gif

Did anybody notice the expession the writer used "...butch wagon". No very politically correct. He might find himself looking for a job soon.

What's it usually cost to go from four cylinders to six? and to upgrade the drivetrain? Certianly not $10,000! I love owning a Subaru and will soon buy another to replace mine, but give me a break! Can you say XTerra? (Is that a swear word here?)

http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif
Ryan

I like the idea of a Legacy Limited with the turbo4. The Legacy Limited is a sweet car with an excellent interior (yeah as nice as any of the competition) and imigine it with the added punch of a turbo. certainly that would be competetive the 3 series and Lexus IS, but that damn perception thing again.
That takes time or like suggested a new name to fix. Subaru probably doesnt have the resources to launch a new brand with new dealerships (remember you dont want to buy your GS300 at the same place that somebody bought their Corolla)
having a six cylinder is another part of perception. the 2.5 4 cyl produces as much power as a lot of the weaker 6's out there. but having a six is a selling point in this country, a sign that you have moved up from the econo 4 banger.

Ryan Plum:

Please do keep us updated on the ride quality of the H6. I'm definitely curious. Right now I have an A4 sedan, and in about a year I'll probably be looking to move up to a wagon (the wife won't let me do it yet). If I can afford it, I'll be getting the S4 Avant (I mean seriously, how can you go wrong with 250+ HP and 250+ lb-ft of torque from 1850-4500?). HOWEVER, since I probably won't be able to afford it, it'll end up being between a Suby and the A4 Avant. The A4 is obviously a much sportier ride than the OB. I'd consider the Legacy GT wagon but it's not available with leather. I don't know how much "off-road" capability I'll need, so again the A4 seems the logical choice. The 212HP vs. 170HP issue is actually a non-issue for me because I'll probably chip the A4 if I get it. So, it comes down to ride. Hopefully the H6 will be smooth, and available with a manual tranny by next year (knock on wood).

What the hell is a .mv document? Geez, am I missing out on something or did they make it up?

I tend to agree with what Overtime said in this case. A $32K car for Subaru at this time just isn't the right move.

Case in point...
Subaru has yet to build an image of luxury in the U.S. Hell, they are still working on the performance image. If someone mentioned Subaru and Performance in the same sentence 5 years ago, 99% of the population would practically start laughing. How many times have you had people come up to you asking what kind of car your RS is? Even when you respond "It's a Subaru" they respond with "What's a Subaru?" Get the idea?

Before they can charge $32K+ for a car, they need to build up the image...SLOWLY. I don't think they can warrant 32K+ for a car at this point, no matter how much hp or leather it has. It is sad, but there is an image that people in that price range expect to have. It's not all about $/hp or best handling, looks, etc...for them it's mostly about image/status for owning the vehicle.

Also, look at it this way. Audi can easily command $30K+ for any car, because of it's image. It has associated itself as a LUXURY car maker. VW is relegated to selling all the econo boxes for $30K or less. Of course there is a slight price overlap, but you get the idea. I don't think Subaru by itself can cater to both the over $30K and under $30K crowd at the same time. This is the reason Toyota has Lexus, Honda has Acura, Nissan has Infinity, etc...The reason is because Americans are weird people that pay $30K plus for their vehicle and then don't necessarily want it's brand name associated with an $18K econo-box. Ever see a cheap Mercedez, BMW or Porsche in the U.S.? Porsche tried to come out with some entry level cars, and look what happened. They produced some decent cars, 944, 968, etc...but they were somewhat of a failure from a sales standpoint. They didn't nearly sell as well, and as such, Porsche went back into producing only high-end cars. I think Subaru will have the same problem here. Of course, I'd like to be proven wrong, it would be nice to associate my "economy" car with a $32K luxo-wagon.

Just my .02...

Dave
'00 2.5RS Sedan
'72 Datsun 240Z

One of the few things GM can offer FHI (other than suspension, high displacement engines, frame over body tips, and cup holders) is the idea of image.

GM's car lines all have a distinct image. I was going to list them but you already know them. If Cadillac came out with a mid-size sedan, it would be billed as "refined". If Pontiac did it, it would be billed as "sport-tuned". If Chevy did it, it would be "reliable". And so on.

If FHI could split Subaru into, say, Subaru and Dimension (or whatever goofy name they gave to the "upscale" division) they could easily grab a piece of the pie. It would take money-probably GM's from the stock offering-and it could make or break FHI's presence in cars beyond 25k, but it could happen.

Subaru has enough tech and enough safety features to appeal to the wealthy middle-aged buyer. But they will forever have the image problem that they earned-weird, cheap cars that last forever.

Hey, I like the image. No cop is going to think I was speeding in a Subaru. And no Mustang is going to think a Subaru can take his "mighty" V6.

And Tim-the truly rich have always been about image. If you ever see a wealthy man driving something that doesn't scream "CASH", let me know. IMO, mage is everything when you're dealing with huge sums of money or places that want your huge sums of money. I have never seen a car service specializing in dragging you around in Chevy Malibus, or, for that matter, Subaru Legacys.

To everyone hung up on the $32,000 number:

1) many Subaru dealers do not get MSRP. yes, in some markets some models are golden but most of the time they settle somewhere between invoice and MSRP.

2) The MSRP of a 2.5L Outback Limited starts at $26,095 and with the premium stereo and automatic tranny -- things the VDC has, but much better-- it is $28,285. Whoever said the VDC was a $10,000 premium over the regular Outback was smokin' crack... check the facts before spewing nonsense.

There is not a substantial price premium over the standard 4 cylinder Outback Limited, which is selling quite nicely for those who haven't bothered to check.

$32k may be steep compared to what Subaru owners are used to, but that's just the thing... Subaru is trying hard to expand. And they're doing a damned nice job of it.

I drove a 2000 Legacy GT and almost bought it. I was seriously undecided between it and the RS. The money-saving was a big factor in choosing the latter, but also, the GT's engine in a car that's 700-or-so pounds lighter. (More?)

The biggest turnoff about the Legacy was the underpowered engine. Nice, yes... but not nice enough. The V6 hopefully will be great, I have lots of faith in Subaru. Though with it being the first-year run,
I'd never buy it right away, were I in the market.

Agreed, Audi does a nicer job with fit-and-finish. But that's been Audi's focus for a good few years, now. If Subaru wants to, they'll be good enough. Japanese car makers have different goals I'm sure than do Germanic ones, so then again, the differences may always be there.

Were I in the market, it would be a tough choice. If I wanted a four-cylinder, I'd probably opt for a Subaru. (Unless I dropped a Garrett chip in an Audi 1.8T.) If I were game for a six-cylinder, then off to Audi. But then again, to get the options in the Audi that you get in the Subaru, you'd pay a VERY pretty penny more than you would for the Subie. So there's your gamble.

-S2-

I can't get over people comparing Audis and Volvos to Subarus. Volvos aren't in the same league as Subarus dynamically; the powerful ones are useless at putting power down - an area where Subaru is master - and the weaker ones (though the US probably doesn't get those) are, well, weak. Volvo plays constant catch-up with respect to chassis stiffness, for example.

"Car" magazine, before complaining about the Legacy's badge, described it as being the kind of car that rides like an Audi *should*. not stiffly sprung, but sportier than you think. Most A4s and A6s are leaden anywhere off the autobahn. Sure, you can specify lowered suspension and huge wheels on an A4 and it will handle well, but then you'll have that kind of ride that makes you embarrassed for your passengers.

One area where Audi nails it is the interiors, I'll give them that. Yup, damped grab handles, deep red lighting and soft, delicate leather are surely more important that progressive, communicative steering, a super-stiff chassis with a low CofG and an unflappable ride. Also I do not understand the fascination with Audi build quality - it's good but not markedly superior to other premium brands (BTW I distinguish between quality of *build*, where a Subaru is the measure of any other car, and the quality of the *materials*, where it isn't).

Maybe I just don't like Audis because where I've lived they're overpriced, under-specced and under-powered.

Andy T

Subaru is in a very tough place in the market. They're expensive for an econo-box and they have neither the luxury nor performance image (in the USA) to demand higher prices.

They're very lucky to have Crocodile Dundee. Smart move on somebody's part. If it weren't for Outback sales, we'd probably not be able to buy Imprezas in America.

-Red

28 to 32 is a much bigger price jump than 18 to 22. And the psychological factors are just as big as the numbers.

I can hear some guy saying to himself, "30,000 for a Subaru? Man, what are they smoking?"

Yeah, we know the might of Subaru's performance division, but unfortunately for us (or maybe fortunately) most other people (including officers of the law) don't.

I still think reviving the Legacy Turbo would be a great idea, only drop in the EJ20. Instant speed rush and lots of room in the engine compartment.

When I was car shopping 1/2 yr ago, I was looked the S40, A4, and finally Legacy.

IMO, S40 and A4 both have slightly upscale interior than Legacy. I picked the Legacy due to the price issue and 5sp. Legaccy GT LTD is $26500 OD vs $30,000 S40 loaded, and even higher on the A4 1.8T.

Remember people, Outback is not in the same league as the wagons. They are targeting more toward the highly priced SUVs. I feel if people can do comparision between the SUVs and Outback, then Outback is not so expensive.

Let's hope Subaru put a H4-turbo in the sedan and wagon though.

I sat in the H-6 VDC Outback at the NY Auto Show. All I could think of was "Wow...." Subaru has come a long way since 1996, when my folks got a ~$20k Legacy Outback. I would compare the new interior to an Infiniti or Acura, which is what I believe is exactly Subaru's intent when they designed the new Outbacks.

Would I pay $30k for an Outback? Maybe, if the VDC system is as good as reports suggest. The performance of the H-6 should be at least on par with the Passat 4-Motion wagon, which VW is charging around $30k for as well, but without as many features as the Subaru.

I am so tired of all of North America thinking Subaru makes ****ty cars. That new Outback is a great car. For $32,000 it is a good deal. One of, if not the Best AWD system out there, 220 hp, leather, top quality stereo, etc. Anyone think there is a better deal out there let me know.

-Mel

Audi makes nice $30,000 + station wagons too. I was only paraphrasing the article. And to an extent, I agree with it. Comparing the interior of an Audi to a Subaru....well....I love Subaru but Audi makes some really nice fit and finish leather interior.

Bah! It's all in one's head. You think Audi makes nice interior but cannot grasp that Subaru has stepped up it's interior quality as well. Please do not use the Impreza interior and compare it with an A4. I've sat in teh Outback Ltds and Legacy Ltd with premium interiors and I can tell u there are really good!

um, for 32 I'd take the A4 Avant, sorry, but that's ok I picked an A4 over the RS too so I must be crazy


http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

It's all in the marketing. Subaru needs to take a hint from Toyota (Lexus), Nissan (Infinity) and Honda (Acura). As you can see, they're going to have trouble getting $30+ k for a car over here.

Hmm... how do you like the sound of Nexus?, Singulara?, Money-black-hola?

-Red

I agree that the Audi interior is much nicer. The build quality of an Audi is superior also. IMO. I havent sat in a new Legacy yet, but there would have to be a HUGE improvement for the interior to be comparable to an A4/A6.

Gambit,

So have I. The Outback and Legacy LTD are quite nice. Even better than I had expected and that was over a year ago! I have yet to sit in a $32,000 Subaru so who knows? Have they stepped into the Audi/Lexus/Mercedis comfort zone?

I'll wait and see for myself.

[This message has been edited by Snoopy (edited August 28, 2000).]

When I was in the market for my new car, even though I knew I wanted the Impreza I figured I'd look around. I looked at an Audi A4 with the quatro system. I really like the Audi but for thousands more, I got less everywhere else from HP to amenities.

Subarus have always offered great bang for buck for everything that matters. If you've got cash to blow and want a genuine european interior then a Japanese car from a company with history in tractors, it's obviously not for you.

If Subaru wants to introduce itself into the market to compete with Volvos, Audis and BMWs, (though they do performance wise) they should do what Toyota did with Lexus. Get a new name and marketing brand. There are too many pre-concieved notions about Subaru.

Red's right. It's all in the image.

People (as in Joe Shmoe upper-middle-class new car buyer) won't pay $50,000 for a Toyota. At least, not in most cases. However, he would pay 50,000 for a Lexus.

And the Lexus is, in most cases, VERY similar to a Toyota!

Rich people pay for the tag when they buy cars. Sad but true. Subaru can go no higher than 25k or so before they restrict themselves to areas where they're valued (ie: New England, Pacific Northwest, Canada) highly due to intrisnic factors.

Inexpensive and built to stay that way doesn't apply anymore, I guess.

Well Overtime I think it is not accurate to say rich people, but American People. There is no Acura in Japan. People pay big bux for Nissans, and all is well http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/wink.gif
I do agree that the people who have money and are more interested in the name of the car and it being a social status object are not going to buy a SUBARU.

... and there you have it!

Ooooooo...$32k for a Subaru (waah, waah!). Wake up people. You could spend $30k on a Camry. That's not that much for a car anymore, especially when you compare it to what it's competing against (Explorer, Jeep GC, Pathfinder, etc.). You could easily spend $35k-$40k on any one of these and you wouldn't have the ride, handling or safety of the Outback. The A4 is _NOT_ direct competition, either. If anyone disagrees look at the comparative size. The OB dwarfs the A4, it's actually approximately the size of an A6. The other problem with comparing it to an Audi or VW 4-motion is that there is no way you're driving the Audi or VW off-road without breaking something. My wife's OB is surprisingly good in off pavement driving and from what I've heard and experienced even my RS is better suited to this kind of driving than the Audi or VW. Is $32k a price jump? Yeah, but what else can you get for that price that is truly comparable?

Regarding the SUV comparison, the Outback VDC has more horsepower (a bit less torque though) more storage room and handles immeasureably better on the roads than a Toyota 4Runner. (I think that's fair to say having compared a 4Runner and a 2k Outback.) You can't touch a 4Runner with leather for less than $33,000 and sticker is several thou above that. Even if you settle for fewer amenities, you still would easily pay more for less.

The Outback VDC doesn't look overpriced to me, you all are just not part of the target demographic.

[This message has been edited by ColinL (edited August 29, 2000).]

I think the whole thing about the Subaru badge IS the value - not that you get as much as other brands for the same price but that you get more! There's nothing wrong with Subaru having a "value-oriented" reputation, that's how they sold so many cars in the 90s! The point that a lot of us are making is that a $32K car that offers about the same amenities/performance as a Passat V6 4 Motion wagon for the same price doesn't represent superior value, it represents comparable value. That's getting away from Subaru's history and pits them head to head against brands with much more "upscale" experience.

Okay, so the A4 and the Passat 4Motion can't go off road. The truth of the matter is, VERY FEW people really need the off-road capabilites. Ask any SUV owner how often they take their vehicle off-road and I'd bet you'll find that the most common answer is "never." Admittedly, there are some people who use vehicles such as the OB for off-road driving, but again - the MAJORITY of the public (myself included) don't need to go off road. The most off-road I can see myself going are the dirt/gravel roads around my house in the Colorado mountains, and I've driven those roads in the winter in a 1986 front-wheel drive Acura Integra. Thus, it seems to me that for $32,000 I could get a much better wagon than the OB H6. Just my $.02 (actually, this is my third post on this thread so I'm up to $.06)

...like?
THing is COlin's right. Outbacks has always been targeted towards SUVs. Like u said Audiguy, most SUV owners don't take their stupid trucks off roads. But drive them to the nearest mall. These ppl want to portray an outdoor active lifestyle image. So the Outback is dead on with those ppl. It has a rugged image, drives better than any SUV! For station wagon market, I'm sure an H6 Legacy GT will top my choice as station wagon of choice for about 30k.

O.K., am I missing something here? One of the reasons people don't take A4s off the road is b/c they're Audis and who'd be nuts to take a nice luxo $30+ car off road. Its not like RSs have extra ground clearance (well, maybe the OBS) or super short front overhang for going up steep inclines. But you'd take the RS off road or on gravel w/o thinking twice b/c its a helluva lot cheaper than an Audi. I don't think mechanically there's any disadvantage to taking a 4Motion Passat or an Audi offroad compared to RS or Legacy. Maybe the Outback has more clearance, but Audi is coming out w/ a higher ground clearance wagon (the Allroad?). When you bump the Legacy price up to $32K people will think twice about taking those off road too.

Personally, I'd rather have the A4 1.8T Avant. It's incredibly sporty; handles great; and the interior outdoes any Suby hands-down. No, it doesn't have the room that the OB of the Legacy have, but I don't necessarily need all of that room. In fact, I have quite enough in my A4 sedan. The only reason I want a station wagon is because when my son/daughter comes along I want to be able to take him/her, the wife, and the doggie to the park for walks. Putting the dog in the same back seat as the baby seems like a bad idea, so a station wagon (or SUV) is where I'm headed. I clearly have no need for an SUV, so a wagon it is.

Admittedly, I'm picky. I need a leather/leatherette interior. Unfortunately the Legacy GT wagon doesn't offer this option. I love turbo engines. Again, Suby doesn't offer a turbo engine at any level. Also, I want a manual tranny. As of yet, this isn't an option for the H6. To top it all of, there are the broad tuning capabilites of the 1.8T engine which can make it even sportier. Oh, and I love the look of the A4 wagon. The OB is a nice looking wagon - don't get me wrong - but it just doesn't appeal to me like the A4 does. Am I biased? Maybe, but I don't think so. We own both a Suby and an Audi, and from my standpoint I think I prefer the Audi.

Okay, I'm up to $.08!

Hey look, it's a 2002 Pliades! http://www.impreza-rs.com/ubb-files/rolleyes.gif