Pasted from email, hope this formats OK...

I cannot disclose the where or how, but I was able to spend some time driving a WRX sedan last Thursday.

I'm tied up at work, so this will be a brief summary, and I will try to post more later.

Previous biases... my last Subaru was a 1986 XT Turbo, and my latest car
was a 1995 Audi S6 wagon with stage 1 chip upgrade (~280hp). I have
owned Audis and VWs almost exclusively since 1990.
Some of you know that I run audifans.com, and have a strong interest in
the WRX.

I am posting this summary as objectively as I can. This is not a troll,
not an attempt to piss anyone off, and yes, I really did drive one.

Let's begin...

The WRX is better looking in person than in print. With that said, I
look at the curves in the hood and can't get the Hyundai Tiburon or
Santa Fe out of my head. When you drive one, you will understand. The
blue paint is stunning, and the headlights are actually kind of
interesting.

The build quality is pretty good, though I noticed gaps, such as between
the hood scoop and the hood, that could have been tighter. The seats
were nicely bolstered, but were a bit on the soft side. I can't see
them holding up well past 100k miles. Some things were really on the
cheap side, such as the headliner (sunvisor flips up with a loud
metallic THUNK) and the interior light works/looks a lot like the one in
my father's old 1977 Corolla.
The trunk lock is also those cheap chrome ones that sit outside the
sheetmetal, and are so easily pried off the car in urban areas (look for
a WRX with riveted plate over the lock very soon, I bet).

The keyless remote system does not confirm arm/disarm with a beep or
flash of the lights, just silence. I hope this can be changed by the
owner. Also, the design of the remote is very odd, with one huge button
to arm and a tiny one to disarm, I think.

There was also a piece of plastic wirewrap (that accordian-like stuff)
peeking out on either side of the center console. My guess (and hope)
is that the seats are prewired for the seat heaters that they get in
Canada, and you just need to add the switches, or perhaps switches and
heating elements?

Sitting down, everything falls nicely to hand, though I had a hard time
getting comfortable in the seat. Things got better later on when I
discovered the tilt wheel adjustment.
The radio sounds fantastic (or is at least very loud - I was so excited
to see the car, I just turned the radio off).

Now, you are mostly interested in the driving experience. Handling was
very positive - the car feels and handles very aggressively, though not
too stiff. It was raining a bit and this was not my car, so I really
didn't push it. Brakes were just OK, but since the car had very few
miles, they might not have been broken in yet.

The engine... sigh. I felt (again, compared to my Audi S6 with chip)
that the car had way too much lag and I certainly did not feel 227hp.
It's possible that after breakin the car will loosen up, but I was not
wowed. In my S6, I could step on the pedal in 5th gear and be pushed
back in the seat immediately. In the WRX, even when downshifting to
4th, I did not feel a major surge of power.

The tires are Bridgestone RE92, H rated, M&S, 205/55-16. I think they
are lame.

The car is a real attention getter in blue, with several people trying
to keep up and then slowing down to check the car out. I think cops
will be interested as well, so I would think carefully about color
choice.

To sum it up:

Positives:
Handling
Seats nicely bolstered
Sound system

Negatives:
Build quality/equipment, at least compared to VW/Audi
Turbo lag

I hate to say this, but I was disappointed. I will definitely drive one
again, especially a wagon, which I am more likely to buy, but I can't
help wondering how a used A4 1.8tq with some mods would compare. I
know, it's used, not new, but there is a big difference in quality.

I think the WRX will appeal most to someone who used to have an
Eclipse/Talon GSX. The experience will likely be familiar. For me, the
leap from German to Japanese may be too much to swallow, unless I find
compelling reasons (ie, after breakin things improve dramatically).

| Dan

Hi Dan, I'm a past (4000q, 80q) and present (S4 Avant) Audi owner who defected to Subaru for a 2000RS. Your review sums up many of my fears about the new WRX. If I may ask, have you driven an Ur-WRX for comparison?

Everything I love about my RS, I couldn't get in an Audi. The light weight, precise handling, feeling of being connected to the road, etc.

Has Subaru gone off chasing a luxo-GT ideal they can never achieve, while abandoning the traits that made the Ur-WRX a world beater?

Arg...not what I want to hear. My 97 1.8T with lots of mods was just totalled, and I've been drooling over the WRX Avant. Too bad about the lag. I also don't like the fact that there is not any kind of chip upgrade path for this car...just piggyback ECUs and boost controllers.

The quality is not as much of an issue for me, as I'd like to turn it into a track car when I buy my next Audi. And the brakes are cheaply, easily upgraded to STi 4-piston calipers. But that turbo lag...I thought the WRX turbo was pretty small...like the KO3/4. Guess I'll have to drive it before plopping down a deposit.

Thanks for the review.

-Cy

Finally, an honest pessimistic review of the WRX. My battle has been which car to get; the current '01 2.5RS, or pay AT LEAST "MSRP" on the '02 WRX. The reviews from the Auto 'Zines and TV programs have been grand about this car. BUT, I'm thinking, HOW MUCH greater can it be that what else is out there? I plan on picking up my 2.5RS on Wednesday, yes, I can say that it is NOT FAST, however, like any other car it can be modded for some more 'pep. I don't consider "4 bangers" to be fast being as I'm from the 350 Cube owners club. I admit they can be quick and sporty, and thats the reason behind my purchase of the 2001 Impreza 2.5RS. If I want to haull a$$, I'll do it in my 400 horse Camaro.
OK, basically I'm typing all this to make myself feel better about taking the 2.5RS over the wait-and-purchase of the WRX.

Feel free to bag and burn at will.

well.. having come from a ~250Hp Liberty RS Turbo to test drive the AU spec WRX.. i thought the power was ok for a stock car.. i wouldnt leave it stock. it needs an ECu upgrade .. exhaust and new breathing gear to make it more drivable.

but i disagree..i thought the power was ok.. but the one i test drove was broken in..

[This message has been edited by Xeno (edited February 19, 2001).]

Cy there are ECU upgrades available, just not the plug in and go type, which I don't like anyway. Link will have an ECU avail in the next few months and a Uni chip is available already. I think the lag thing has a great deal to do with that valve in the intake track. I think with a programable ECU, one could make that thing open fully a 1000 RPM instead of 3000RPM and be rewarded with better response. A ball bearing turbo and EVC will make is even nicer.

Ken

The engine... sigh. I felt (again, compared to my Audi S6 with chip)
that the car had way too much lag and I certainly did not feel 227hp.
It's possible that after breakin the car will loosen up, but I was not
wowed. In my S6, I could step on the pedal in 5th gear and be pushed
back in the seat immediately. In the WRX, even when downshifting to
4th, I did not feel a major surge of power.


Your report is somewhat contradictory. If you were expecting a "surge" of power, that seems to indicate a preference for non-linear delivery, or lag, which you claim it also has.

I have not driven one, so your experience is probably more relevant, but riding in a pre-production US spec car the power delivery seemed smooth and immediate to me (though my foot wasn't on the gas pedal), though there seemed to be very little "surge" of power that one associates with high boost engine (e.g. older Saab turbo, etc). If anything it seemed to me like: small turbo, too little high RPM boost, no lag (ie punch once the boost came up...because it was more immediate linear delivery like a low pressure engine).

Glenn

PS

There was also a piece of plastic wirewrap (that accordian-like stuff)
peeking out on either side of the center console. My guess (and hope)
is that the seats are prewired for the seat heaters that they get in
Canada, and you just need to add the switches, or perhaps switches and
heating elements?


There would be wiring to the seats already for the side airbags. Perhaps what you saw was associated with that?


[This message has been edited by Glenn Wallace (edited February 19, 2001).]

Replying mainly to Glenn's note here.

It's possible that I was looking for a kick in the pants, which would be associated with lag. To me, lag is when I step on the gas and nothing dramatic happens, until a few seconds later. In the WRX, even a few seconds later, not much happens. In contrast, on the S6 with the chip (or even my wife's Jetta TDI with a chip) stepping on the gas results in an immediate surge of power. If I had a boost gauge, I could quantify it better.

The real measure to me is in a real world situation, like passing another car. In the WRX, even downshifting to 4th did not result in dramatic power. It accelerated of course, but nothing that would make you scream out "wahoo" or grab the wheel tightly.

I don't mean to discourage anyone from the car - certainly if you are not that interested in a luxury type car, you won't care about little details like the visors snapping shut or the 3mm thick carpeting in the trunk, just above the 4mm cardboard floor, and the uncarpeted trunk lid. But when you see VW take steps to address even the little things, you realize they have raised the bar.

I remember my 86 XT had much better interior build quality than my 84 Jetta or even my 86 GLI. Today, the tables seem to have turned.

Someone asked whether this was a "luxobarge" WRX - I think not. One of the best attributes is that the car is well connected to the road, even with the crappy tires. I suspect it has a handling that even a modified A4 will find hard to beat.

As far as the wires to the seats, I certainly hope those exposed wires are not for the airbags - if they are, the build quality is far worse than I think it is, since these look like someone threw in an aftermarket stereo and was too lazy to hide the wires.
This was in fact a production car, not a preproduction example.
Let me correct a term - perhaps what I am terming "quality" should be reworded as "attention to detail".

Again, I don't compare to Audi/VW looking for a religious war, it's just what I know.

If you have any other questions about the car, my friend still has it for a few more days and I can ask him to investigate anything simple.

Note: The way to tell if it is a pre-production car is to look for the white EPA exemption sticker on the right hand underside of the hood.

I believe Subaru's engine specs. 227BHP at 6000RPM is 227 BHP. How it delivers the power seems more to me like a Saab low pressure turbo (e.g. 9-5) than the older WRXs (I only have the 22B to base this on).

It certainly seemed 'fast' to me, and my butt dyno did verify the figures http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif. It definitely is NOT as fast as a Minnam Stage II 2.5RS or similar. We expected that.

It weighs a hundred lb or so more (a Minnam kit does add weight you know, so the weight difference isn't as big) and probably has 20-30HP less.

My own expectation is that it is faster than a 2.5RS and not quite as fast as a Minnam equipped 2.5RS ---- and my ride seemed to confirm that.

So what was your expectation? As fast as your S6? (which has how much power? weight?)
To meet certain performance figures? The feeling you get when you drive it? How didn't the power live up to your expecations?

My expectations are that I expect it to drive like a AWD 227BHP 3085lb car.

It appears to be tuned for much less boost above 3,000 RPM yet still delivers quite a deal of power. It is more like a light pressure turbo setup with low RPM "overboost", if that makes sense.

My wife's LPT Saab does not give a big "surge" and yet delivers a lot of power and torque in a linear fashion and is much faster in a straight line than my stock RS! (even with prob 800lb more weight!)

Glenn

It sounds like the remote is the same as the Outback remote (and perhaps all Subarus?). One large button to arm, smaller to unlock. Works great, and I don't find it odd at all - seems perfectly natural, IMO.

I actually rode in a WRX (didn't get to drive it though), and it seemed to have plenty of power to me. Guess it depends where you're coming from. I also thought the seats felt very supportive and comfortable (I did get to SIT in the front, just not drive it). The seat adjustment "ratchet thingy" (for want of a better phrase) works quite well.

Let me end the debate by saying, who cares what the stock is like. I plan to mod the hell out of it, then I'll see your Audi my man, in any environment you like. It is that tunnability and potential that make me buy the car.

Let me close by saying my last little project car (Honda Civic)started out running 16.8's and getting around the road course like Ms Daisy was in the back seat. When I was done It ran a 12.84 on street/drag radials and stomped M3s with ease on the road. My WRX will make you say OH Shoot(edited for cooth), when I'm done.

Ken

[This message has been edited by DeliciouSpeed (edited February 19, 2001).]

C'mon, DeliciouSpeed, don't be rude in front of our four-ringed guest, he'll think he went to Club-Si by mistake...

Funny, I was thinking the same thing.

no need to be rude about it mr. speed, but i do agree with you. if i do get one down the road (maybe a 2003 or 2004, depending if the STI model ever makes it over here) i dont really plan on it being stock for a long time. and as far as bang for the buck goes, you cant beat it w/ a stick. audis are XPENSIVE. subarus are relatively cheap in price for what they are. i agree, the trim may not exactly be exquisit, but i will sacrifice that for a cheaper price. if i want a brute of a car, id go buy a lil bimmer or somethin. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Sorry Guys, didn't realize I was being rude. Just showing a little enthusiasm. Maybe it was a little juvenile. Sorry Bro, ya know, if I offended. That was not my goal.
Maybe I should also let you know that I apprieciate your comments on the car.

Ken

[This message has been edited by DeliciouSpeed (edited February 19, 2001).]

I appreciate the candid comments on the WRX. All the reviews I have read have been so overwhelmingly positive (except on the looks of the car) that I had no idea what the negatives may be.

Still, my enthusiasm is not diminished at all. I can barely afford the WRX, and I still believe that it will be the most fun car I can possibly afford. I am not expecting it to be the best car ever. Plus the fact that many aftermarket mods will exist excites me even more in case I stumble upon an extra thousand or two to spend on it.

If I had $10k more, I would buy a BMW. I want room to carry more than 1 friend at around at a time.

[This message has been edited by scott_gunn (edited February 19, 2001).]

Ladies and gentlemen, you have just witnessed the masterful work of a gentleman troll from the Audi board (danix). It's left us all a bit speechless, eh?

I'll dispute the content of his post later.

It's the style that's really both impressive and very Machiavellian. Look at each paragraph of his mysterious WRX test drive. They have the hypnotizing effect of starting with a very complimentary intro, followed by a condescending slam about the car.

Example #1. "The WRX is better looking in person" and the blue is "stunning," but the car looks like a Hyundai?

The build quality is pretty good, but the interior is compared to a 1977 Toyota Corolla?

Reread the last paragraph carefully, look past the golly/gee style and you'll find the sentiment of a German automobile elitist. The WRX may be good enough for Talon/Eclipse owners, but Audi fans may "find this too hard to swallow."

Honestly, I may be being a bit harsh here, but I sense his criticisms of the WRX are a bit unfair. What's the validity of comparing a chip modified Audi S6 to a $24k WRX? I'm getting a 2002 WRX wagon, but I not foolish enough to compare it to my 2000 M coupe, 1997 Supra TT or 2001 BMW 330i (wife's car).

There's also some insuination that the WRX power is somehow underwhelming. 0-60mph in 5.9-6.3 sec and over 200 lb/ft of torque at 2600rpm isn't slow in my book.

Now for some factual disputes about the post:

The Bridgestone RE92 tires on the WRX aren't the greatest choice, but they're V-rated, not H-rated. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Whew. Glad that's off my chest, guys.

Dean

Very observent Dean-o, I thought is was just us being invaded by Yuppie Scum. You know the type, not good unless it leaves my or my parents pockets empty. I can't wait to see their faces after they spend some time looking at my Hyndai (Spelling who cares though) tail lights. By the way, I like the tail lights, headlights to.

Ken

Err.... does everyone has to like the WRX?! Danix was disappointed. So be it right? After all he was coming from a 280hp car. How about you test drive a Daewoo Lanos and see how it feels compared to your current Impreza?

As for me the WRX will be the first new car I ever buy, and as I'm coming from a no torque, no HP Civic it will feel like a rocketship to me.

Everyone has their perspectives, depending on their backgrounds and it is very interesting to get all of their ideas.

my 2 cents....

I like the WRX enough to buy one, but I realize that the car is not beyond reproach. It certainly can't be all things to all people.

What ticked me off was that the moderator of audifans.com, Dan Simoes, drops off an innocent sounding review of the WRX that's really a study in elitism. Mr. Simoes has no intention of buying a WRX, and his subtle prejudices are difficult to hide.

In what other review of the WRX are you going to see comparisons to two Hyundais, a 1977 Corolla, and a Talon/Eclipse in 500 words or less. If I wanted build quality rather than performance I'd buy a used 1995 Lexus LS400.

I couldn't care less about the "cheap" headliner, sunvisors and trunk lock, and I certainly don't give a damn if the remote keyless entry doesn't make a chirping noise.

Let's hear some unbiased impressions of the WRX, with fair comparisons to cars in its price class.

(Damn, I gotta lay off the coffee. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif )

[This message has been edited by DeanO (edited February 19, 2001).]

I turned the alarm chirp off on the RS I owned. If my WRX comes chirping from the factory, it too will be disabled...

I'm thinking that the lack of a beep or a light flash was probably not normal.

Greg.

[This message has been edited by Greg I (edited February 19, 2001).]

Gambit -

Actually, the Daewoo Lanos has excellent handling. The suspension on those is tuned by Lotus. With an extra 100hp or so, it'd be a hell of a little car.

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Well Im not really getting my self hyped up for the WRX which i ordered a month ago.

One reason I drive a 180hp 2200lbs JDM style honda civic hatchback.

I am looking forward to the AWD, and MoMo steering, and 4 doors, a more grown up car than a civic, integra or gti. BTW I dont know what i have grown to dislike VW, they just irratate me (so do the drivers).

I was gonna buy a Integra TYPE-R which is a true Race car for the street, but didnt like the rear view visibility, Crammed rear seats (like you wouldnt believe!) and the fact that every dealer wanted a few thousand over sticker (HAAAH!!). Im gettin my wrx for some change over invoice price, so no complaints.
Besides, i would be in the same category again civic, integra, eclipse, etc etc.

I would like to get rid of at least one catalytic converter if i can help it.
Some of you guys dont realize how lucky you are to live in states that have no smog laws (believe that!!).

BTW does anyone want to buy a civic, haha i have to come up with a downpayment from somewhere right?

I am still exicted, the WRX is the closest match and fufills most of my wants and needs as a car like no other one on the market.

EJ20WRX

Note:

To Rearm the "Loud Beep" press both buttons and hold down for a couple seconds. So yes, it does have a beep.

Oh, and dont anyone forget... Hes compairing a Tuned S6 to a un-broken in WRX. Thats as big of contrast as you can get people!

At the handling will be great http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif Thats my #1 priority!

This is interesting... first of all.. I just got out of a 1977 Corolla (KE35 I think) and my..the interior light is much better in my WRX. I dunno what this guy is talking about. I don't have access to a brand new 1977 Corolla, so I compared it to a very used one. Yes..the sunvisor shuts with a thud, but I find that better than some visors which fall down at the slightest hint of a bump. About the hood scoop..of course there will be a slight gap. It is separate from the rest of the hood. You can remove this scoop and you have a hole. The gap is also smaller than all the pther panel gaps. And yes..if you want tighter gaps, I guess you have to pay for it. I can't comment on the seats beacuse we have different seats.
As for the keyless entry system, the blinkers on mine blink once for locked, and twice for unlocked, and yes there is no audible warning, but what's the big deal?
I also think that it's hard for someone to feel the power in a 227 hp car if they are used to something with more power. Jeez.. gimme a break.. it's like flying an F18 all the time then suddenly getting into a Gulfstream.. oh well.. I guess it's his opinion and he's entitled to it.. but we are also entitled to take it with a grain of salt, right?

OMG, I can't believe what I'm reading, seriously. So this Audi owner test drives this car and points out some of the flaws. Now all of a sudden he's an elite snobish person who's opinion doesn't matter. He didn't say anything that was false. The car does have a cheap interior and fit and finish. I guess its a crime to point that out. All day we're reading about people bragging that the soon to be theirs WRX will put a hurting on cars double its price. Then as soon as somebody points out any shortcomings they must be high class snobs. If you wan't to compare it to a higher class car in performance don't be mad that somebody mentions the area's where it doesn't win. This guy wasn't even really saying anything that bad about it. He just said that comming from his VW/Audi background the interior is a little lacking, which it is. Sure it will look good to somebody who came from a 1990 tercel, but what do we want to compare it to. I personally would like to compare it to an industry leader so I know what I could be missing out on from another brand. If your satisfied with the fact that it has a nicer interior than a 1990 tercel(or whatever) then it will never get better. As for his remarks on performance. I've also heard from other sources that there is some turbo lag. Many people who have driven it say it isn't explosive of the line. It will get up and go, but not necissarily with the send your eyeballs to the back of your skull acceleration that some of you seem to be thinking. 227hp in a 3087 lb car isn't all that much. Especially when you consider that it's AWD and there will be quite a bit of driveline loss. Some of you can go ahead and keep living in denial though. You can go ahead and forget what I just said it was obviously a brief moment of insanity. The WRX will slay all competitors in every aspect regardless of price range. Anyone who says otherwise should be stoned. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif


[This message has been edited by Eby (edited February 20, 2001).]

Thanks for the opinion Dan.

To appreciate this review you need to consider what he is comparing the WRX to: The 1995 S4 Avant weighs in at a lardy 3814lbs which is about the same as a 2001 Lincoln Continental or about 730lbs heavier than WRX, and at stock the 2.2L puts out 227HP but he has chipped it up to 280HP (claimed), so his weight to power ratio is 13.6lbs/HP which is just a little worse than the WRX’s 13.4lbs/HP.

So it seems that that this is yet another automobile enthusiast that associates the sensation of uneven power delivery with speed.

Personally, I find a flat power curve much more controllable for performance driving. Give me an open track and the clock will let me know how fast I was, not my butt.

danix just posted his opinion and his review. no big deal. it's his opinion. cool enough, we all get an opinion.

i *am* concerned about the performance of the stock turbo. i think the thing is just going to be undersized and the way it is controlled seems to give too much lag. remember, that British reviewer said the same thing about the turbo - lags when trying to pass cars or merge into traffic.

sounds like the car could benefit from a turbo swap.

-olaf

My old cranky '88 Mercury Sable (Thank god I got rid of it long time ago) with 3.8L 140HP (!) engine always gives me the sensation of power surge and butt happiness when start from red light. But this carp does not go faster than any other cars at all. I think the large displacement engine always give you that false sense of power surge.

Foxbat

[This message has been edited by Foxbat (edited February 20, 2001).]

I'll throw another post in here from an Audi fan (I've way too many Audis to count).

I don't think you will ever find an Audi owner who will call the WRX slow or overpriced. I am not a huge fan of it, but I will respect that car when I see it on the road....and get out of it's way!

One thing I am excited about is that if Subi is putting so much performance in such a moderately priced car, other car makers will follow, and everyone will benefit.

By the way, I know Danix.....I actually sold him one of my Audis 3 years ago. I dont think he really meant to be condescending or rude. He just had some insight on a car in which no one else has driven, and thought he would post here to be of some help to those who haven't driven it.

Eby, I'm glad you posted that. It saved me the trouble.

Amen.

-Dog

Whenever you read a review, you've got to take into account where the reviewer is coming from. This guy is coming from a car that places luxury before performance, and also cars that are much more expensive than the WRX. This is a serious apples and oranges comparison. And frankly, I find these comparison pretty worthless.

Coming from an Audi, his observations are probably all valid. But I'm much more interested in someone's opinions who comes from a more performance oriented car. If I wanted a quiet, luxurious, overweight car that performed pretty well, I would buy an Audi. But that's not what I'm interested in, so I'm buying a WRX.


Eric

PS - Maybe we need someone who drives a Yugo to post a comparison review. Then we'd all feel better about buying a WRX!

Eby, you said it!! I've driven the new WRX. 227HP in an almost 3100lb is NOT that spectacular! For an american Subaru it's pretty cool, but in relation to this "when I get my WRX, I'm gonna be king of the road" attitude, I'm sorry folks--this car will get beat by many cars. Yes it's tunable, but so are other cars. Yes it's got AWD but that can actually be a drawback IN SOME CASES. There is a lot more loss driving all 4 wheels. Oh, FLAME ON!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Brahmzy (edited February 20, 2001).]

IMO it should be compared to a 1997 eclipse GSX. The eclipse was a smaller car but it weighed around 4000lbs. That car could get up and go and they said it only did 0-60 in 6.5-7 sec. and it had 210hp. they both cost around the same, apexkw got his for 26,000 and that is prob. what most dealers will charge. true in my 2.5rs i could always beat him off the line but then 2nd and 3rd he would fly right by me. stock to stock. once you put a filter and exhaust on the GSX you could notice a huge difference. Even that car had no power in 4th or 5th because the turbo isnt spooled, you would have to go to 2nd or 3rd to really take off, which is true for most car.

just my $.02

hey now...
this is my first post. i have been lurking for a while... taking it all in. i was worried about getting a welcome like this guy... but it seems Eby is open minded about it.

after seeing the WRX in detroit, i am very anxious to get my hands on a one when they debut in a few weeks. it is everything i have always wanted in a car... a rally x'er thats also a daily driver. although the 2.5RS was my favorite model to date, it lacked the power out of the box to gain my attention. this post does raise some issues though... we'll have to see.

Bob

I think all the posts following the review by Sir Danix are interesting because they all seem to hint at something...

The WRX is apparently incomparable. Not above and beyond other cars, but different than them.

A VERY good performance oriented car (IMHO) with an average interior and amenities. So do you compare it to other cars with similar comfort offerings?

Well, if so, it blows them away performance-wise. Or do you compare it to similar performing cars? In which case it gets spanked in interior and creature comforts due to its, um, shall we say sparcity http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif.

Keeping this in mind, these other well-endowed http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif comfort minded (at least in part) cars are gonna cost you more cash flow. Even Audis with similar performance numbers from stock are gonna set you back considerably more than the REX. An A4 is possible for under $30K, but only at 180hp, si?

Anyway, to get to the point, I think that we've come across a car that defies categorization for some of the reasons I listed above.

I think Eby's post identifies the difficulty in defining a category. We can smoke an A4 (stock under $30K), but our interior/design is comparable to a Hyundai. Anyone agree?

Although, A '77 Corolla? Come on.

[This message has been edited by enuttage (edited February 20, 2001).]

IMO it should be compared to a 1997 eclipse GSX. The eclipse was a smaller car but it weighed around 4000lbs. That car could get up and go and they said it only did 0-60 in 6.5-7 sec. and it had 210hp.

Actually the AWD turbo Eclipse/Talon/Laser ranged from 3200lb to 3400lb depending on equipment and year. It was nowhere remotely near 4000! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif

Let the bashing, hating and troll calling begin! Someone posts their subjective opinion about the new WRX, stating that it doesn't quite meet up to their expectations, and now all the sudden he's a troll, and a yuppie scum? I'm glad we're all such an open minded and mature bunch here.

I've seen a WRX in person. It is cheaply made with a cheap interior. Hell, they didn't even spring for colour coded engine bays! That said, it's not that bad. The doors ARE light and a little on the tinny side. The interior is decent but not Audilike, and since none of us on this board has driven a US spec WRX, who are we to say that he doesn't know what he's talking about with respect to turbolag? Until we can drive it, maybe some of us should get off their high horses regarding their WRX will smash all attitudes. It may not.

WRXRob is right...after driving all day long in a chipped 280hp audi, Danix BETTER say that WRX sucks! I know I would. Otherwise who in the world will buy an Audi? As to those who must rise at every occasion to defend the WRX in wild comparisons, get a grip. WRX is in a class all by its own and pitting it against cars high and low on the price range defeats the whole purpose.

i think a subjective opinion would be hard on this board.. a lot of subaru enthusiast and not to many car enthusiast.. well at least in the wrx forum.. I mean the only opinion most people would accept in the wrx forum is that it's the best car ever flat out.. But this guy gave his opinion.. He said we're he liked it and where it was lacking for him.. He obviously keeps up with all cars in the market and was interested to see the car.. Just cause he drives a audi doesn't mean he's yuppie scum(tm) or any other name you wish to call him.. Look at the price of used a4 1.8t's there very low! you can roll one that is just a few years old for pretty cheap(with full warrentys).. You can upgrade for reasonable pricing and probably fair competition for a wrx.. The wrx is gonna be cool i'm looking forward to seeing them on the road, and i'm looking forward to test driving one..

When I saw this post last night, I knew it would get a lot of attention. Danix, I enjoyed your wording of the post. From your point of view I can understand why the WRX is a step down.http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Yes, the interior is not VW/Audi standard. Does it have some Turbo lag? Probably.

So I have to ask my self, I’m I willing to buy a used S6 for about the same money as a new WRX? No. I’m I willing to spend an additional $15K or more for a new Audi A6 2.7 or S4, in order to get the all the creature comforts? No.

When it is all said and done. The price value relationship of the WRX to any other new car that has its stock performance and potential for upgrades is unsurpassed. That is why I have put money down. I’ll be the guy in the Silver WRX Wagon.

First off - Glenn, thanks for your comments.
Most of the other comments so far have been pretty intelligent.

Based on the EPA sticker (which I noticed), this was indeed a preproduction car. My friend told me that it was production based on the VIN, so I was going by that.

DeanO - you have a problem my friend. I am not "elitist" (you mistake me for your BMW cronies). But when I notice that significant shortcuts were taken on the car (such as the dome light, the trunk lock, etc) and point out that VW/Audi does it better (and even Mazda does too), that is not elitist.

As far as my writing style, it was not intended to be anything in particular - I just wrote down things as they came to me. Is it any wonder, since I have been looking forward to this car, that I started with positives and went to the negatives? A true critic would have blasted the car throughout, don't you think?

The comparision to the S6 was made not because I think it's a "fair" comparo - it's because it was my car. As far as price, a used S6 can be had for under $20k in nice shape, and I just sold my wagon for almost $26k, so it's certainly in the ballpark.
That car had almost 280hp and was heavy at around 4500lbs, but for example had no problem outaccelerating a Boxster S at speed.

As far as my having "no intention of buying" a WRX - who the hell are you? How do you know what I have planned? Do you think I went and registered wrxfans.com, among others, because I intend to make a career of lambasting the WRX? Just because I refuse to put down a deposit at $2000 over MSRP like some other people who live in my town, does not mean that I will not buy one.

My wife can tell you I have lusted after the WRX ever since I saw it in Europe a few years ago. But she shouldn't have to.

I'm here sharing information because I think it's useful, not because I don't have a life and get off on insulting others. Food for thought?

I-Club has something like 4000 registered users. Even if only a relatively small percentage read the initial post, that's still a big chunk of people. Out of which maybe 3 or 4 took offense, overreacted, or had a strong opinion. Which they are of course entitled to. I don't think that reflects poorly on I-Club. With 4000 members, we're supposed to have different opinions.

Well said. It's just a bit rediculous that one has to defend themselves on this board.

danix,
I owned a 1994 S4 sedan (chipped) and the weight was right around 3900 lbs. Are you sure the S6 wagon was 4500 lbs? Sounds too heavy to me. Having owned and driven Audis, I am by no means expecting the WRX to match the quality of the Audi, particularly the interior, were you? However, from what I've read, the body structure (rigidity) of the new WRX is in the same league as current German cars, and maybe even better than some and that is what I care more about. Also, if the WRX is as reliable as other Subarus, I can overlook the cheap touches here and there.
I'm glad that you posted your impressions here. Some people here need a dose of reality when it comes to this car. I, for one, want as much information as I can get about the WRX, and anyone contemplating purchasing one should feel the same way. I am a little surprised about your impressions regarding the acceleration, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see for myself.
At $24K, you can't expect the WRX to be perfect. Even the S4/S6 was by no means perfect, and you know what they cost new. I just hope that Subaru put the money where it really counts, engine, body structure, suspension, etc. If so, I can live with the other faults.

In some fairness to Mr. Audi, wasn't it Subaru who compared itself to Audi first? (power to weight and all) Some turnabout is fair play - each has it's strengths. He wants to feel good about what he paid good money for which reflects his own tastes and desires, just as the WRX reflects on the tastes and desires of this group. His accounting of the aesthetics were really more positive than some I have seen (check the brit reviews for example - downright funny).
It is honest reviews that help to improve products in the future. Even if the weight given to the complaints seem over the top.

As an aside, given this is a performance oriented car - doesn't it seem that passions and feelings run a little higher? Doesn't this represent to the world how strong or smart we are? Perhaps we could use a bigger dose of security from the inside out...

I suspect the WRX will fit my needs very nicely, and it is 'different', which I like. I am looking forward to developing my own driving impressions. I am still somewhat interested in others for sure, but have read enough now that I feel I have the general idea of the thing.

Glenn made a good point about the car being deceptively fast. I do as a current Honda owner yearn for more torqueyness, which I am sure will be felt. It seems like a smoother power curve would really be faster, as it leaves more attention available for driving a good line and all, hey what a rally car is good at!

the end

just to set the record straight. the new WRX can outaccelerate, out-corner and outbrake a Ferrari or 911 Turbo. It has the interior to match a Bentley all for 24K (a little dealer markup might bring it to 25K) oh yeah, oil changes and regular maintenance occur every 100,000 miles.
downside: the headlights turn some people off and not enough cupholders.

http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Danix,

I don't want to take sides here, but ...

You're saying it's a fair comparison because you can buy a used one for a comparable price? One's used, one's new. Apples and oranges. Now, if you can buy a new one for about the price of a new WRX, then it would be a fair comparison. I really don't know what the price of a new S6 would be (chip included in the price), but from what I understand it's substantially higher. Hence, the "comparison" is apples and oranges. And I have to admit, re-reading your review, DeanO's analysis was not totally off the mark, IMO.

Dan

The only reason he was comparing it to his S6 is because that's what he owns. Remember, this is an ordinary guy, not some magazine reviewer. He doesn't owe it to anyone to have a fair comparison, and he never said it was fair. He owns an S6, so that's what he's comparing it to. It's as simple as that, and I see nothing wrong with it. He can't very well compare it to something in the price range of the WRX if he doesn't have any experience with such a vehicle. The used price thing was just mentioned to show you a used S6 could be had in the WRX price range. Frankly I could care less about the price though. He could own and compare it to a brand new BMW M5 and it wouldn't make any of his points any less valid. Why does it matter what car he compares it to. Either way it has a cheap interior and the fit and finish could be improved. I'm convinced some of you are simply afraid to admit the minor faults of the WRX. Like you will somehow start to change your minds about your decision to purchase one. The quality of the WRX doesn't change wether it's being compared to an M5 or a Daewoo. So don't flame this guy for comparing it to what he knows. The points still hold true.

[This message has been edited by Eby (edited February 20, 2001).]

Mmmm . . . S6 . . .

I wanted to buy a 1996.5 S6 Avant last year. The used wholesale price is more than a 2002 WRX new. Rare, expensive, beautiful. Very nice automobiles. The man has good taste.

Oh yeah well audi's suck! theyre' build quality is just so so after all they are made in a factory, and i was in one with exhaust and intake and chip... and yes it was an s4 and it felt slow. it had no get up and go at all, maybe it was because it was so heavy... or maybe it was because my friends dad just traded his 94 porsche 3.6 turbo in on it... hmmm. get my point?

Eby,

The problem I have is that the review does not seem, IMO, to treat the comparison as apples and oranges.

"The engine... sigh. I felt (again, compared to my Audi S6 with chip)"

"In my S6, I could step on the pedal in 5th gear and be pushed back in the seat immediately. In the WRX, even when downshifting to 4th, I did not feel a major surge of power."

All I have to say is, who cares how it compares against the S6 with a chip? Totally different price range. There's enough negatives in the review that to also compare the WRX against a more expensive car and to say the WRX was disappointing seems to me to call into question the validity of the rest of his opinions (are they also based against a more expensive car-viewpoint?)

Just MO, just my $.02.

> hmmm. get my point?

Uhhh, your Daddy bought you a nice car? Not too many trust fund babies around here--have you tried the BMW board?

-----

Eby, you hit the nail on the head. As has been said many times before, a lot of people around here like to pick and choose reviews that support the decision they've already made.

I say bring it all on! Give me every perspective from the SCC sycophants (not you Shiv) to the intensely critical Brits. And especially let's hear from smart guys like Dan who admit their bias, and give a straight-shooting evaluation that puts the good and the bad in terms we can all understand.

Look I realize a WRX and S6 aren't in the same class, but that is his car so that what he is comparing it to. It's not like he was trying to deceive anyone. From the very begining he was up front with the fact that his regular car is an S6. He was kind enough to come here and give his impressions of a WRX test drive. Yet some of you people who have never driven it flame him for what he said. Like what Jon is saying, you want to pick and choose your reviews. You'd rather read a review comparing it to a Kia and hear all the good things about the WRX than a review with an Audi and all the bad things. All I can say is ignorance is blis.

If you want a very even comparison, look to the reviews from the UK.

They had the old wrx turbo and now the new version. That is very similiar comparisons, ya ? No apples and oranges stuff.
Personally, i prefer oranges.

What did anyone expect? 227HP and 3000lbs? Its not going to be a rocket ship by any means. It has 10 more HP than my grandfather's 95 Z34 Monte Carlo. Big deal, do some mods on it, then it should shine.


hopefully....

For those of you who are going to do mods, please have some reserve cash ready, in case your engine gets broken somehow.

You spend 24-25k on a brand new car, chip it or whatever and what happens if the pistons die due to the chip ? Once you chip your engine, all engine warranty (5yrs for subaru?) is gone. Subaru can blame it on you...

Dont want to see anyone without a car to drive, so please have a backup plan.

I too prefer oranges.

well i hope that you people dont ask the dealership to install the chip. Becuase if you do have a problem just pull your chip out put the old one back and warranty is still good. Just like i did with my honda civic

Hi guys, first post on WRX forumn. Been keeping an eye on the forumn to gleem some information. It seems that a number of the folks here are super defensive about the car. I'm an engineer, and as anyone in the engineering world knows, everything is a compromise. Trade offs have to be taken to ensure a final product per any per-determined goals.

I just find that if a guy post what he said is an opinion, and get's bashed as if the opinion is something that will affect the car. That's petty.

Down the road in a year or two, I'll be getting a WRX wagon. Yes, I'll compare it to my current vehicle, like the gentle man did. Will the WRX fare well in the power and handling test? No. I drive a fairly heavily modified 240SX that I use for road racing. Power ratio of 10lb/hp. Peak torque of 278ft-lb at 4,100 rpm. But that doesn't deter me from wanting a WRX wagon. I know the limits of what it's capable of and what it's original design intent is, and it's definetly more practical.

Also, another item I feel I need to point out is the term "turbo lag". I don't think half of the folks on this forumn knows what it is about. The lack of push that was descibed can very well be attributed to a smooth torque curve. A smooth torque curve will accelerate the car without a jump or a big push (good example is the S2000, it's torque curve is fairly flat and smooth, if you are not counting the lack of torque). A peaky torque curve will. My 240SX does. Hitting 4,000 rpm will instantly push me into my seat. But, my car does not have turbo lag. Why, let me describe. In 4th or 5th gear, my car starts boosting at 1,500 rpm, and reaches a peak boost of 0.8bar at 3,000 rpm. Most OEM setup shoot for something similar. Real turbo lag is when you finally get peak boost at 5,500 rpm or higher. The Japanese like their powerplant that way. Now, that's is turbo lag. It's known as the time from full throttle opening to peak power (which also somewhat corresponds to peak boost).

Looks to me Subaru designed the powerplant to be smooth in power delivery, and the Audi S6's chip made it to have a peaky torque curve. I've seen stock A4 1.8T dyno charts vs chipped 1.8T. The torque curves goes from flat, to a spike. That big change in torque will give that big push.

So, that's my 200Yens worth...

Just thought of a better way to experience some serious turbo lag. For those of you with Gran Tourismo, get a JZA80 (MKIV Supra) and build the heck out of the car. Get the Stage IV turbo. Go start a race. Don't rev the engine before the start. Now, step on the gas. What happens? no power until much, much, much later. That, IS, turbolag... A very severe one... The low compression engine makes no power, and does not generate enough exhaust energy to spin up the turbo.

Hmm... That leads me to believe that a chiped WRX might get peaky like the chiped A4/A6, no?

If you want to compair realistically, compair stock vs. stock, or chiped vs. chiped so everyone can get a straight answer... Thanks

Yes, it will be. By removing the factory's high rpm bleed. Because the factory setting is to decrease the boost, this will flatten the torque curve. If you just run a boost controller that keeps the same boost, you will get a higher torque at the high rpm points.

<FONT COLOR="Red">HELLO PEOPLE, WAKE UP!</FONT c>

Look, Glenn of all people hasn't even been able to test drive a WRX. Do you honestly believe this well spoken "troll" has. Come on, don't be so gullible!

[This message has been edited by WRX PILOT (edited February 21, 2001).]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/eek.gif

[This message has been edited by WRX PILOT (edited February 21, 2001).]

You'd be suprised how many people have driven the car.

Wow, WRX Pilot, overly enthusiastic reply. Seriously, there are folks who have driven the car, and you shouldn't be so rude. Bad for the I-club name sake, making it into another Club Si...

I think some of you need to have more of an open mind. The WRX is not the greatest car ever, and it does have flaws that will become apparent once people start to take delivery of their cars.

Not everyone that offers a negative opinion is a troll either. This guy was just passing on his thoughts, and compared the car to what he knows(the S6). Give him a break. With the responses he got, I'd be surprised if he posts here again.

The fact is that barely any of us know what the WRX will drive like...most everything said here is speculation. Until the car actually gets here, I think people need to watch what they say.

Well, he registered www.wrxfans.com. (http://www.wrxfans.com.) I think we'll be hearing more from Dan in the future...

Jeez!!! I at once both embarassed and heartened to be part of the I-Club community. Response's like Eby's remind me that this is a great community. But the over-defensive and divisive snipes are just plain embarassing. Come on people, its just friggin car! Some of you sound like a mild, objectively framed criticism of a pre-production WRX is worse than a dis on your sig others! I read Danix's review w/ interest, but wonder if the exact same review came from an RS owner the reaction would've been different.

Is it the best sporty car for $24,000...?

Just throwing some 91 Octane on the fire. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Heck, I just want a "New" 200+ HP, all wheel drive wagon for under $25,000. Are there any others I am overlooking??

Tangelos are good. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

It seems to me, not to add fuel to the fire, but around here, dissenting opinions are ok, but dissenting opinions from the dissenting opinions are fair game for attack. As if the words of someone that posts something negative about the WRX are beyond reproach. The apparent assumption: If it's negative, it can't possibly be biased, nor should the comments be attacked on their merits.

Just my opinion!

I find it funny that someone has made some bad points about your "Holy Grail" of cars. Now people are just pissed they have money down on a car that might just be a hog. Its 3085lbs and 227HP, its not going to get up and go the way you want it to.

danc, I think you've got it backwards. There are currently two sacred cows on this BBS: the new WRX and Dale Earnhardt. Dontcha dare mention the flaws in either one, or there'll be hell to pay...

Wow, this thread is gettin' nuts! I've driven one and I ordered one. No it's not a rocket, no it's not a 2,400lb Celica(thank goodness!) There are many flaws as the EVERY other Subaru I've owned. I currently own a '00 GT sedan-it's riddled with annoyances and it is slow. That's how it goes with Subarus(if you haven't figured itout yet after owning one, then I can't help you) Even at it's 6.4 0-60 it still is the fastest in it's price range and highly modifiable!

WRX is not the be all end all car ok. The P1 is. hahahah.... Just kidding. I don't think there is one yet.

Hey,
WHo is buying this car for the friggen interior anyways? Its like saying a type r is to loud and doesn't come with heated lether seats. Who cares! This guy likes his audi, good for him, he doesn't like the wrx interior, good for him, I like the wrx's speed, handling, looks (dont flame me http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif ), and the tunablity. I really dont care about the interior, just as long as its clean and doesnt break into pieces. His review was written well and just points out some things he doesn't like. I don't feel a need to flame him, he just has differnt views them I (and some of us) do.
But, I do disagree with some of you,
I will be the king of the road in my wrx,and will spank many a v8 http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif
Just drive and shut up! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif
keith

Gambit, you're smoking! The 22B is the ultimate. P1 is just some Brit 22B wannabe! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Now... P1 is! If an RB5 beats the 22b in the best AWD car shootout and the P1 beats the RB5 in the Car of the Year awards....then logic dictates that the P1 is the mucho honcho among the Impreza line. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif Besides, Peter Stevens helped design it.

Nah, you've got to take into account that they only tested them on British roads!

Anyways, you take the P1, I'll take the 22B and we'll race up the DVP. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Well said keith. Some are getting excited about the fact that we have shoot down a person with an opposing point of view. But it happens here and all other auto related boards all day every day. That's what we do. If you want a hug after you make a post to to Oprah.com to post your views. I mean really, stop crying so much.

Ken

Yep. What Keith said.

-E

Uhh, keith didn't say anything about shooting down a person with an opposing point of view.

shoot someone!
As for opera.com,I went there but no one wanted to hear about the wrx! so, lets go shoot themhttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif
can u tell how bored I am??
ahhahhttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif
keith

Well, I err heard from someone that the lag isn't too bad if you're > 2500 RPM and squeeze the throttle. If you floor it under that it will sit for a bit. Not a NA V8 I guess.

Anyway, that's what I heard.

But certainly very quick, and as I said in another thread today, the chassis and suspension are just incredible. Tight as a drum, quiet, no rattles, no cowl shake, you barely feel the bumps but yet it is composed if you throw it around.

Anyway, that's what I heard.

Glenn

Ahh shut up Glenn, you know you've driven it. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

Final words on the subject.

Thanks to the many people who have supported me on the board, as well as in private email. To the 4-5 people who are acting like 12 year olds - grow up.

I will post again here, about other subjects. Someone suggested that I drive a '01 RS to compare it to. I would if I had the time, but by the time I get through all the dealer crap, I've wasted an hour. Plus all the local dealers know I'm looking for the WRX.

My next test drive will likely be in a wagon. I hope to have something more positive to report for those of you who were disappointed with the initial review.

Last word on the Audi/VW comparision - I sold the S6 wagon. Also, I agree that there are no other 200+hp AWD cars (esp. wagons) available here, for under $25k. But at that price, I can also point out a flawed interior compared to a $16k VW, can't I?

Peace.

Ya, I really like this car WITHOUT the spoiler thank you.

I think I'll forgo that and go aftermarket for one like that German one from another thread.

That really is a nice looking car. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Danix, thanks for taking all the criticism & flames so professionally. Welcome to the club & we hope to hear more from you in the future! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Whoa- coming into this a bit late, I must say that this is quite a thread. The WRX is not an Audi- fine. What I must say is that I considered purchasing an ur-S4, which is a precursor to the S6 in name, but same chassis and motor and such. The cars are built as luxury cars first with performance added with a goal to match the BMW M cars- Nice cars, but at a price. We are comparing apples to oranges here. The WRX is cheap speed- the S4/ S6 is a daily driver for someone who doesn't want drive the 911 turbo in the rain. They cost like 40 or 45k new. In the mid 1990s. Ouch. Fine, unless you have to take it into the shop all the time to get it fixed. Mind you, the Audi S4/S6 cars are awesome cars- plenty of space, luxury, and speed. They also have their fair share of problems, including power steering problems, bad amps for the rear speakers causing them to go up in flames, cracked manifolds, bad fuel lines, and notoriously high maintenance costs. That's fine. I'll stick with Subaru for my reliable daily driver. Inexpensive, reliable, brutal speed? I'm there. WRX? Its gonna turn the automotive performance world on its ear.

Glen

To each his own. I will be getting the WRX sight unseen. I have an Outback Sport and love it. I have had many cars faster (several corvetts,new and old, Masseratti Bi-turbo, 98 Viper, 87 lamborgini Countach 5000s, Well some were my fathers) but Subaru makes a fun to drive car. Now I can actually get one with some power. Hell, it goes 0-60 in around 6secs. That has gotta be GOOD! Not everyone who drives a BMW or an Audi is a yuppy. I was in the market for an A4 and a 328 last summer. I am glad I waited for the WRX, I will save some money and if I want nice interior I have lots of money left over to replace it. I could put in plush wall to wall carpeting and full leather, I can replace the sunvisors, heck I can get the canary yellow instead of the BLAZE yellow.

Not meant to offend.

Chuck

Just a point. An S6/S4 chipped to around 280 hp does not have a peaky torque curve. Pretty much the opposite, from what I've seen.