my mother has forbade me from taking my car offroad,
hahahahhaha
it came back REALLY muddy this last time, i will have a picture of the aftermath soonish

and she says i forbid you from taking your car offroad again, it was not made for offroading


now...it's not like i was doin some rock climbing or anything

just some rocky trails, and a big mud pit, that i DIDN"T get stuck in, and had to pull my friends toyota tacoma out of

and she says that it's not made for offroading

what are you're thoguhts on this?

yeah it was..
didn't she see that dundee fellow doing the same thing?

Take your mom's advice before you end up getting a big bill for repairs. As much as Paul Hogan and the Subaru television commercials like to portray our Scoobies just as capable as SUV's they are not. Also - everyone's definition of "Off Roading" is a little different. If you are just talking about dirt and gravel roads with small ruts and a few small rocks then you are probably OK. Steeper trails with deep rutting and large rocks are definitely a no go. The problem with the cars lie in the ground clearance and undercarriage protection. Due to the lack of ground clearance the approach angles of the cars are not good and can result in easy bumper damage. The newer Subaru's don't have the skid plates the older cars had to protect exposed oil pans, transmissions, rear differentials and axles.

Having owned several Subarus and living in Colorado I have experience in this and have done some stupid things off road with my earlier Subarus which resulted in bent and scraped rocker panels, torn bumper skirts, and being stuck in places I shouldn't have been. My old Subaru was an 85 4x4 hatchback which was much more capable off road than the newer cars due to the short wheel base, high/low transmission, height adjustable suspension for extra ground clearance, and full skid plating under the engine. It was still a car though and it came nowhere near the capabilities of an SUV. I scraped it up quite a bit trying to prove otherwise!

The Subaru is a great car for slippery snowy or muddy roads that are moderately steep and do not have deep ruts.

Punk

Useless fact ... did you know that in the owners manual for the MBW "SUV" it says, "This vehicle is not intended for off-road use."

Now, how the hell can you classifly it as an SUV if you can't take it off road? That's plain stupid ... I hate SUV's.

Ya think this guy off-roads his SUV?:eek:


http://www.beaterz.com/one_liners/0201/images/lincoln.jpg

I don't think Expeditions are made for off-roading, either. :lol:

http://www.highrpm.org/humor/carhumor/rice/expedition.jpg

Blingn' off road action daaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwggggggggggg.

Peace,
and I'm out.......

listen to your mom...
if your still living at home, she has veto power.
I'll rally cross my car, but I wouldn't exactly take it off road, but I live on my own. Not that I wouldn't love to move back home and save some serious coin.
AO

Originally posted by Mike Smith
Ya think this guy off-roads his SUV?:eek:


http://www.beaterz.com/one_liners/0201/images/lincoln.jpg

Dude don't laugh!!! It's the Autobot TrailBlazer FOR REAL!

LOL!!!

lateRZ

Originally posted by fellfrosch7
I don't think Expeditions are made for off-roading, either. :lol:

http://www.highrpm.org/humor/carhumor/rice/expedition.jpg

DOH! This poor guy wishes he could be in DUB magazine... but the truck is soo "not working" hahahaha

lateRZ

That is some major Bling :lol:

Hell, if we want to be honest, even most SUV's aren't made for real off-road driving. Remember "primitive road" and "off road" are two very different things. The former is usually more or less flat and free of obstacles. All bets are off when you actually leave the road, though.

Jordan

Its kind of funny nobody that has responded to this has an Outback. If you want real knowledge of the Outbacks offroad limits post in the Legacy forum. You really cant get answers from RS and WRX owners they just dont know. If you want some real info check out this site.Remarcable (http://www.remarcable.net/misc/legacy_outback/)

I think it's odd that a lot of you are trying to compare a CAR to an SUV. The Impreza is a car. A car is practical transportation (for most people). A real SUV is practical transportation in the bush. These fake SUVs we have in the US can only get themselves stuck by the crazies who buy them. The only real SUVs left are the Land Rovers, and not the cushy ones, I'm talkin' the ones with the bench seats on either side in the back.

As for the Impreza it's about the most "off-road" capable car I've ever come across currently in production. Well as much as I hate to admit it the Audi All-Road is probably a bit better all-around. SUVs really only have Imprezas out in one thing: clearance. But that clearance can only get inexperienced drivers stuck, rather than get them out of a situation. The same also goes for Subarus, but I've found a lot of people realize their boundaries more with the Subaru whereas SUV owners/drivers think they're invincible.

But on that note I bet on a plain-old dirt/gravel/rough road I'll be able to leave an SUV in the dust, for the Scooby can go faster on dirt :D

~Garrett

Why does that slammed Expedition have running boards??

Right, people have made some good points. As good as the AWD system is for handling non-concrete roads, and concrete roads in adverse conditions, the Impreza is a sports car. It can handle different terrains as long as they're reasonably level and devoid of big objects. Driving in mud is fine, as long as the mud is shallow! I'm surprised that a Tacoma got stuck and you didn't, because trucks can handle deep mud much better than a sports car. If you're planning on driving somewhere you think you could get stuck in, don't go alone. Just like you and your friend with the truck, you need options in case you do get stuck. Sounds like you're doing everything right. :)

But don't let your mom catch you.

Fact of the matter is that it's a car..
but it can off road better than most cars

no denying that.

Subaru's aren't going to get you as many places as a good 'ole lifted truck or jeep.

They are great cars but there is a limit to what we can do.

And yes, you WILL damage and break things offroad. This is true in any vehicle. Driving around offroad is expensive, that's why I haven't been able to do it all summer. I don't go on serious stuff unless I have an extra grand in my savings account to fix the car. Luckily I've never had anything expensive break, but I've been pretty cautious so far (what with the car only having 30k miles on it right now).

If you are planning on any offroad driving I'd suggest getting skid plates, a tow rope, and a cell phone. Having a few buddies with trucks or 4WDs helps too. I also wouldn't take my mom's car offroad. I live on my own (since age 17) and the car is mine. Of course that means if I mess it up then I'm stuck with the bill.

I think someone already posted a link to my site, so I'll stick my most embarrasing picture up instead.

http://www.remarcable.net/misc/legacy_outback/gallery/pics/gallery3/Image37.jpg

A [I]real SUV is practical transportation in the bush. These fake SUVs we have in the US can only get themselves stuck by the crazies who buy them. The only real SUVs left are the Land Rovers, and not the cushy ones, I'm talkin' the ones with the bench seats on either side in the back.


OK. what about the Jeep and or Hummer? if you think that a Landrover is the only real off road vehicle than perhaps you have never seen a real Jeep or Hummer. Not to mention the imfamous older Toyota land cruisers. Just cause something is expensive doesn't make it the only real off road vehicle. with the $$ you spend on a Landrover i could make a Jeep that would eat it for lunch. Don't be so sure in your weak assurtion!

If you want a cheap off roader, go get a 80's dual range 4wd hatchback. Throw a lift kit on it, big tires, and get a LSD from a Turbo wagon. Might not perform like a Jeep or a Land Cruiser 100% of the time, but for the money you cant get any better.

Kevin

Even the new grand cherokees and land crushers are competent off-road. Suburbans, Exploditions, Expulsions, Yukons & Tahoes are too bulky for their own good. Exploders and Blazers aren't great. 4runners are still decent. Cherokees are good, Wranglers are good. Liberties are junk. All 'cute-utes' are junk.
Not junk for cars, but junk for off-roading.

Anyway. It's a family car, not a truck. If you want something to beat up off-road, buy an old Dodge. :)
People think finding a part for a Subaru is a chore, wait until you try to locate a passenger's side mirror for an '86 Ram 3/4 ton.

If You paid attention You would notice that remarcable writes about Defender, a Land Rover which is not luxury truck and which made Land Rover what it is.

Krzys

PS I do not offroad but I think one wants to use something resonably old. Old enough to not cry about scratches and missing pieces of trim (I guess if it has trim it is not off roader ;-) but not too old for spare parts.

PS Jeep claims that Liberty can handle 'Rubikon Trail' so I guess it is off-roader but because of this it is heavier than competition, which only pretends to be offroaders.

well there is no denying that there are limits to a Subaru, unless u r Dundee himself
as regard to true SUV, the Nissan XTerra is a damn good one. Not as comfy or luxurious as a Jeep or Land Rover, but that thing gets the job done. My mother has a 00' Red XTerra and that thing handles vermont and maine snow every year when we go snowboarding in near blizzards :D
just my opinion :)
.... but those low riders were a good laugh, i needed that

Leave home kid.

PS Jeep claims that Liberty can handle 'Rubikon Trail' so I guess it is off-roader but because of this it is heavier than competition, which only pretends to be offroaders.

Yeah, it did the Rubicon. There are reports that it was done with three Daimler Chrysler crews.
1) stacked rocks to ease progress
2) drove the CAR
3) returned the trail to natural

They also apparently skipped the hardest part and they provided the photographers.

If you wanna play like that, my Subie could do the Rubicon.

Imrezas are not desigend to go off road and neither are legasys but both can be modifyed to do well off road, with out too much problem... I have personaly been in a 1980 wagon that has climed hills that modifyed jeeps needed a few tries to get up. we helped pull out a 1976 for truck with a 390 big block that got stuck in a place we had just gone through. all you need is a little taller tire, and some tweaked suspention. we also hellped pull out a suburban that had broken an axle driving throu some deep snow we had just passed thru as well. if you have a good driver, that nows the car, and just a few tweaks here and their, a older subaru can do alot. I have seen lifted imprezas and I would bet they also do well.

Hell kid join the Military! Every summer the MN National Guard GIVES me a HMMV to thrash around in. You will NEVER know the capibilities of a vehicle as long as you own it! Case in point last year getting high centered in a 3ft deep mud hole and having to be towed out with a M113 carrier! Talk about fun.
PS I will put that HMMV up against ANY 4x4 in the world. It is wider than any other but for going places you dont think possible, it will.
TIm
Teamster 6 - Out!

The real jeep guys I've talked to laugh at the liberty.

I do too... cause it looks funny!

Jeep grand cherokee's suck for the really tough stuff.... too heavy and bulky and expensive to repair. You want an old CJ for really kicking it around.

Has anyone seen the subaru Hatch Patrol videos? THose guys are friggin insane!

Can't find the website right now, damn.

I heard that of all new SUV's bought in the USA this year only about 5-7% will ever see dirt. Makes ya wonder where the other 93-95% are driving around.

Oh wait they are driving the little kids to soccer, and baseball.



Joe

i'm damn proud to say i take my X offroading and beat the living heck out of it off the road :)
in fact, she's getting a spencer low lift and some 31" bfg at/ko's quite soon as well... 3" suspension, 1" body lift, and the tyres and skids. Now.. i have the paint chips from playing the bills, the scars, and the soon to be needing a rebuild hubs from water fording..does that count as using an suv as it was meant to be? :D
Not all suv's are yupster mobiles FYI. and 75% of all xterra guys i know beat the snot out of their's off road as well..but then again the xterra isn't exactly you're typical suv.. ahh i am mumbling here
the scoob does well for a car based platform off road i do have to say that :)
and nice leg wagon picture man!

The hatch patrol video is the best!!! The website is down because nbci or whatever the hell it is weny belly upo or something..
kevin

The Xterra is a back-to-the-basics ute for people who want something to thrash around in. It's good like a 4runner, but you don't have to spend $30k to get a v6 4x4. If it was offered when I was looking for a ute I would have bought one. Oh. The 240 horse v6 would have been a plus.

The Forester is basically a cute-ute. It's a boxier wagon. Basically it's for people who refuse to buy a station wagon, but a short SUV is ok?? Whatevah. :)

Originally posted by fellfrosch7
I don't think Expeditions are made for off-roading, either. :lol:

http://www.highrpm.org/humor/carhumor/rice/expedition.jpg


thats gotta be one of the ugliest things ive ever seen

If you want to take your Subaru off-road, talk to these folks:

http://www.powerup.com.au/~colfam/photos.htm

I agree that the older (not cushy at all) Land Rovers are among the best offread vehicles out there. There are only a handful of SUVs that can actually go offroad. Most SUVs nowadays are all show and no go (i.e. 4WD is only an expensive option). They are meant to make people feel secure when driving, so that they will have nothing to fear when they crush my Honda Civic like a tin can.

Back on topic- Don't take your Outback off road, you might kill some mountain bikers.

I was referring to the Defender from Land Rover. I saw one of those do some amazing things in both Africa and Europe. Not to mention the SAS uses them in place of HMMVs a lot. Not everyone uses the HMMV.

And I knew I'd get a Jeep fanatic hassling me in no time after that post. Most people don't know about the Land Rover Defender, the no-nonsense SUV. Besides, the Jeep isn't an SUV, it is its own entity completely. The HMMV could be considered an SUV, but not in the current sense. The problem with a jeep is it's too unstable. The CG is too high for something that's crawling over rocks and stuff like that. It won't take too much to tip one over while you're bouncing along down the trail. The Defender keeps the CG as low as possible to prevent that, and it holds more people, thus the UK military uses them.

HMMVs are definitely cool, especially when they have a 90mm recoilless on top. You can't argue with a cannon :D But they eat gas faster than you can burn it in a bucket and they have more than their share of mechanical problems. Any reservists or actives have any comments on this? I'm sure someone working in the motor pool will ;)

~G

Not everyone uses the HMMV

Not everyone spends like 80% of their f'n GNP on the blankety blank military. :mad:

If we cut back 1/2 of our military spending and quit playing the part of policeman of the world, we could fix our education system, provide health care, curtail homelessness, etc.

We spend like 20x the sum of our top 5 "enemy" nations (combined) for "defense."

How will more money help kids learn? If a child wants to learn he or she will do whatever they can to get an education. It has been proven many times in history. This is the best country in the world. If you don't like it go east young man.I do wish we had J-spec cars avalible.

Back to the topic at hand...If you take the time to read the impreza manual you will see that the OBS IS made for off roading. It says so right there in the book.

later
JS

k, well i wouldn't go real off road, it was road, kinda, not technically, not maintained for the most part except for a few the rocks were appx softball sized, lots of them, no unavoidable rutts deeper than 4" it was a bit worse than primitive road, my friend takes his buick FWD up there, and stuff, i do have appx 1" of additional clearance over the stock OBS cause of the 205/65 tires i put on it which are brand new

i don't phear the bumber gettin messed cause it already is...from being backed into by an exbedition so i'm not worried abotu it at all

granted i DID scrape bottom a couple times, lightly, nothings damaged

still waitin on gettin the $$$ to buy a skidpad

that WILL be my next investment, followed by some sort of lift kit
something hopefully easily bolted on/off for when i'm gonna go more offroad,

btw, don't thin that this is gonna stop me from going primitive roading if you like to call it that

i go gravel all the time,

anyway, thx for the input

Horatio, I've gotta say that you've made some ignorant remarks about the Liberty. Get out there and drive one. Take it to Jeep College or wherever you like. And make it the Limited with the 5.7L. Now maybe compared to the old YJs or Wranglers with huge ass tires and lift kits, then just about anythings a joke....but to me those things are just funny looking...but...anywayz.

I don't think it'll still come off as a "joke".

btw, did any of you guys see the Motortrend TV episode with the 48hrs in the desert? Pretty cool driving done there.

lift it

Horatio, I've gotta say that you've made some ignorant remarks about the Liberty. Get out there and drive one. Take it to Jeep College or wherever you like. And make it the Limited with the 5.7L.

You mean the 3.7L? If you're going to be so bold as to accuse somebody of being ignorant, try not to make mistakes yourself. It doesn't look too good.

What was it that I said that was ignorant? I said it was junk for off-roading, which it is. It'll handle primitive roads just fine, it'll do just fine on lightly rutted roads, it'll do ok on mild rock crawling, and it'll do ok in shallow mud. Nothing that a Chevy Tracker can't handle.

Did you happen to notice that between 2000 and 2001 the XJ (Cherokee) became statistically worse on paper? The 2001 falls just short of the KJ (Liberty) in several categories where the 2000 would be equal.

I don't know about you, but most people who buy a Jeep to take off road do NOT get the Limited because of the painted side cladding that gets beat up.

I owned a 1999 WJ (Grand Cherokee) Laredo with the 4.7L V8 and Quadra-Drive. I put over 33k miles on it in two years, and took it off road a couple of times. It was a capable vehicle. I wouldn't trust a KJ to be able to get itself out of thick mud that was deeper than the center of the axle, but my WJ did just that.

Let's compare the 2000 XJ with the 2002 KJ.
The KJ has 3.8" more overhang
The KJ weighs about 800 lbs more
The KJ has 1" less ground clearance
They have identical payload and towing capacities
The KJ is taller and wider which translates into more room
The KJ has 3.9 ft^3 LESS cargo volume
The KJ has .2ft larger turning radius

OK. So the KJ is a bigger (bloated, dare we say?) better freeway cruiser.

Let's look at what DC(Jeep) did to the XJ to make the KJ look better.

In 2001:
AC, tilt steering, leather seats, full size spare became options instead of standard.
Torque was DOWNGRADED from 235 to 225. Hmm. The KJ has 235. Motive??
Rear shoulder room was decreased .6"


So. Tell me. Am I still ignorant for thinking the KJ was a step backwards in the off-road department for Jeep?

(all data was collected from carpoint.msn.com)

no, scoobies are not meant for "4-bying." they do rock on gravel and dirt roads, however. i believe that's what people mean when they say subarus are great for off-road driving. NOBODY thinks scoobs can drive up cliffs 'n stuff.

as far as good late-model 4x4 rigs go, i've seen jeep cherokees, wranglers and suzuki samurais (yup, the little 'ol samurai) do some amazing stuff in the (WA) cascades recently. sure, they were lifted with swamper tires on 'em, but they sure can go over a LOT of hairy stuff.

man, that expedition/navigator is the ugliest goddamn thing i've ever seen.

Subaru makes ALL Road vehicles, not OFF road vehicles :p Theres a difference!

But I am having some fun driving around the beach at Folsom lake cause its so low right now :D


Note to Jeep conversation: Motor Trend took all of the Jeep models up to the rubicon trail, and the only vehicle that did as well as the Liberty Limited was the Wrangler of course.

Any Subaru is the perfect vehicle for someone that has to drive through a *real* winter. Up here in the Great White North I'm driving on poor roads (rutted with snow and ice banks) at least four months of the year, sometimes five or six.

When I want to go truly off-road I borrow my friend's 1967 Series IIa Land Rover.

http://www.eunos.com/keith/landy/images/offroad_basilgoingin.jpg

from motor trend's review of the Liberty. It said to see the sidebar about the Rubicon, but I couldn't locate it.

"The new Jeep Liberty (internally dubbed the KJ platform) is intended to expand its reach to SUV buyers who place a higher value on on-road manners than off-road ability... Like the aforementioned PT Cruiser, the new Jeep is truly long on style and comfort. "


For a 4-wheeling machine you want narrow, short, and not very long so you can get into skinny places. The KJ took a capable vehicle, got longer, wider, taller, and decreased the ground clearance. It's not designed for serious off-roading.

Originally posted by MBX Motorsports
Useless fact ... did you know that in the owners manual for the MBW "SUV" it says, "This vehicle is not intended for off-road use."

Now, how the hell can you classifly it as an SUV if you can't take it off road? That's plain stupid ... I hate SUV's.

BMW calls its X5 'SAV' rather than 'SUV'.

Foxbat

Originally posted by horatio102
from motor trend's review of the Liberty. It said to see the sidebar about the Rubicon, but I couldn't locate it.

"The new Jeep Liberty (internally dubbed the KJ platform) is intended to expand its reach to SUV buyers who place a higher value on on-road manners than off-road ability... Like the aforementioned PT Cruiser, the new Jeep is truly long on style and comfort. "

It was right next to the article, I dont see how you could miss it...

And because they made it softer, doesnt mean its not one of the best small SUV's on the market for off-roading.
Compair it to the competition for off-roading ability, and really the only vehicle better in the small SUV market IS the Wrangler, and thats not really a small SUV.

For a 4-wheeling machine you want narrow, short, and not very long so you can get into skinny places. The KJ took a capable vehicle, got longer, wider, taller, and decreased the ground clearance. It's not designed for serious off-roading.

It IS a very narrow, short SUV... Have you even stood next to one in person? Its not much larger than a Wrangler in any dimesion, and much shorter than the Xterra and other Small SUV's. Maybe not as small as the Cherokee, but the Cherokee is old and out of date and horribly built... And not much of an off-roader. And the Liberty's ground clearance is still greater than most, if not all of the competition.

I mean, go around and compair it to everything else... You will see that its a great small SUV that can do more than most folks even need, and can do just fine in the serious stuff.

Im gonna find that article to tell you what page # and issue its in

wait...last i checked the cherokee IS pretty big, i thoguth ti was BIGGER than the liberty

cause it's been gettin bigger over the years, and the liberty was fillin in the gap...

The Liberty is pretty capable off road.........Ive seen one first hand. Although it is cute, it will get you around anywhere:)

Kevin

Read the JD power review of the Liberty. The dash fell into the testers lap while he was driving! That sound like a well built SUV to me. Jeeps are great vehicles untill you get about 50 grand on them. At that point they fall apart, not all at once just a little at a time. They stay in the shop untill everything is replaced. I had a 95 4.0. It was junk.

Originally posted by HIHO
Read the JD power review of the Liberty. The dash fell into the testers lap while he was driving! That sound like a well built SUV to me. Jeeps are great vehicles untill you get about 50 grand on them. At that point they fall apart, not all at once just a little at a time. They stay in the shop untill everything is replaced. I had a 95 4.0. It was junk.

sounds like a stereotypical american car of just abotu any make to me...

hehe, my 92 Olds Achieva was falling apart, and it only had 56k miles :p Traded it in for my '95 Impreza with 98k miles and BOY is it an improvement :D

Owned a 81 CJ7 then 87 Wrangler then 98 Cherokee Sport now a 02 Liberty.

The Liberty is better put together than the other 3 combined. It is better for my needs than the Cherokee in every way. Where the Liberty falls short of the Cherokee is in all out rock crawling because of limitations of the IFS. Now to do that crawling the Cherokee requires big bucks in mods. In stock form the Cherokee is no more capable off-road than the Liberty and for the other 95% of the time the Liberty is way better than the Cherokee. In terms of ergonomics the Liberty eats the Cherokee and its 20 year old design.

Point is, if you want to boast about off roading Jeeps, get the Wrangler and forget about the others.

-Adam

02 WRX
02 Jeep Liberty
95 GTI VR6
01 Yamaha YZF R6
91 KTM 250 EX/C

16 wheels, 772 horsepower, 1 understanding wife

It was right next to the article, I dont see how you could miss it...

Because it's next to the artice in the paper magazine. I looked at their website which did not include the side bar.

but the Cherokee is old and out of date and horribly built... And not much of an off-roader

Old, yes. Out of date? Maybe. Horribly built? I doubt it. Why would a 2001 XJ be built any worse than a 2002 KJ? Aren't they built by the same people?

If they were so old and out of date why did DC tell everyone they were going to be built along side eachother for a period? Why was DC pressured from enthusiasts to keep the XJ around? In the end DC decided to go back on their previous statement and the cancelled production on the XJ.

So here's a comparison for you. Let's imagine that Subaru makes the WRX, which is a fast sporty sedan. Several years from now they decide to replace it with something a little wider, a little taller, a little longer, and 800 lbs heavier, but not significantly increase power. Let's say for the last year of WRX production they de-tuned the turbo 2.0 so it was putting out less torque to make the new car seem faster, and they also made most of the standard features from previous years an option.

Wouldn't that cause you to question their motives? If you have to make the last year of a car less appealing than the new one, doesn't that say something?

Head over to www.jeepforums.com and ask the people there if the XJ is a good off-road vehicle. Those are the purists, kind of like who we are here to the Impreza.

Daimler Chrysler has turned a capable compact sport ute and turned it into a jelly-bean luxury cute-ute.

Originally posted by horatio102
So here's a comparison for you. Let's imagine that Subaru makes the WRX, which is a fast sporty sedan. Several years from now they decide to replace it with something a little wider, a little taller, a little longer, and 800 lbs heavier, but not significantly increase power. Let's say for the last year of WRX production they de-tuned the turbo 2.0 so it was putting out less torque to make the new car seem faster, and they also made most of the standard features from previous years an option.


You mean the Forester??? :p

I parked next to a LIberty today.

I had to laugh, because looking at the two cars head-on, it seemed like I had better ground clearance with less crap hanging down.

The bugeyed lights don't do it for me either... not with those fenders anyway.

I wouldn't buy one.

If I'm going to buy a real offroad vehicle it isn't going to have CV axles and won't need a team of people stacking rocks in front of it to run on the rubicon trail.

Its HMMWV....High Mobility Multi Wheeled Vehicle. I too drove several for over 4 yrs, in more deserts than I can remember :( I was even one of the drivers for HMMWV school in the Corps. Talk about the best month of my life. I would pay money to go to another course :D, we did everything. Its amazing what these things go through with the fording kit attached. Climed hills where all we could see was sky, and went down them where you are literally standing on the brakes. Traction Control was nothing more than gently stepping on the break/pulsing the gas pedal to lock the diffs/and then releasing the breaks only enough to let the vehicle crawl out. Civilian Hummers have this done electronically nowadays. 9X out of 10 this would get you out of the mess you put yourself into. Each wheel hub has its own gear reduction and gives it crazy traction/torque to get you through the thick stuff. I will tell you though that a HO jeep wrangler with air lockers are just as capable if not more than the hummers are, and 3,000,000 X's easier to maneuver. As far as subarus go...Never tried it, but HELLLLLL NOOOOO could it do anything other than crusing on a dirt/gravel road.

Originally posted by HIHO
Read the JD power review of the Liberty. The dash fell into the testers lap while he was driving! That sound like a well built SUV to me. Jeeps are great vehicles untill you get about 50 grand on them. At that point they fall apart, not all at once just a little at a time. They stay in the shop untill everything is replaced. I had a 95 4.0. It was junk.

Amen to that. Jeep has 57k on it and it needs some new stuff, just outta the blue. Had the front rotors and brakes replaced yesterday. Thank god I know the guy that runs the shop (goin out on his boat today for tubing:p ) or it woulda cost a small fortune, for my wallet anyway.