On my old acura id run smallest wheels possible less rotational mass and lighter.


i know my 06 wagon comes with 17 inch stock.


i want to put 16x8 rota as my track only setup

with ra-1 tires. does anyone know if this will work on the 06 wagons?

I think that's the size BigSky is running, rims are around 11 lbs IIRC, sweet set-up.

Grassroots Motorsports test a few years ago determined that 17" was the perfect compromise between 16, 17 and 18" wheels. Actual time difference was very small on I believe a 30 second course, but other factors like feel ... shorter sidewalls on the 17 vs 16 made a subjective favorable difference.

that gr test was useless since the changed tire size at the same time.

are you actually racing, or just doing track days? if it's just track days, it doesn't matter which is lighter or has more rotational mass. buy whatever is cheapest overall. ie, weigh longevity AND price, and ignore performance. for a competition vehicle, look for a tire/wheel size that offers the widest tire you can fit/afford and that can handle the amount of heat you're going to put into the tires. remember also that weight saved at the tire is going to be more important then weight saved in the wheel since the tire is the furthest point from the center of rotation.

Solo-x makes a great point. If you're only lapping or if you're not fighting it out for top spot, I feel you're better off being a bit more practical. For your car, run 99-01 RS 16x7's. They're light, cheap and plentiful (anyone who says they're not plentiful hasn't looked very hard). Get a few sets and try different track tires. If you're willing to spend a bit, you can setup with a set of Hoosiers for when you want to really haul and some Kumhos or Toyos for longevity. On my Honda, I run Hoosiers on 13x7 in the dry and narrow Victoracer ecsta v700s on 14x5 as rain tires.

jack

Some things I was considering in going looking at a 245/40/17 on 17x8 wheel vs. 245/45/16 on 16x8 wheel:

1) Comparing the same wheel (Rota Slipstreams) and tire (Falken FK451), I came out with the 16" package being ~25lbs lighter (~2.5lbs less per tire and ~4lbs less per wheel).

2) The 16" package does have a 4.3" sidewall (and therefore should feel softer everything else staying the same) versus 3.9" with the proposed 17" package.

3) The 16" package is .8% shorter overall rolling diameter than stock. The 17" package is .6% shorter than stock.

4) FK451 have a stiff sidewall for their class

5) My car (22F/24R sway bars, F/R solid endlinks, rear strut bar, Prodrive springs, stock shocks, 17x7.5, 225/45/17) feels slightly stiffer than I would like to have on a car that is driven ~98% street.

6) The 16" package is about $250 cheaper than the 17" package and offers the opportunity for cheaper tires in the future.

7) 17" looks cooler

8) sharper initial turn-in with 17"

VERDICT: For me, I think it's 16x8 time.



EDIT: Changed my mind...considering cost, tire weight, and tire availability = 235/40/17 on current 17x7.5 wheels :)

i was planning on running 16's on the track,but i was also going to reduce the side wall, my theory being, less side wall flex, it would lower the ride slightly (im running cusco 2r's) slightly better gearing for the track (who cares about nvm and the speedo) it would also mean i could poke a 225 on ;-)
now am i missing something that makes this a bad idea?

my vote would be 16" for the same reasons as mentioned by burnside...and if you really are worried about sidewall flex, get a shorter sidewall ;)

i want to put 16x8 rota as my track only setup

cheapest overall. ie, weigh longevity AND price, and ignore performance. for a competition vehicle, look for a tire/wheel size that offers the widest tire you can fit/afford and that can handle the amount of heat you're going to put into the tires.

I hate to state the obvious, but you two are on the same page.

Get the Rota Slipstreams. You won't be disappointed.

my vote would be 16" for the same reasons as mentioned by burnside...and if you really are worried about sidewall flex, get a shorter sidewall ;)

Wouldn't mounting 225's vs. 245's lessen sidewall flex?

Looking at the same wheel the last couple days, didn't realize HOW MUCH cheaper Rotas were vs. Volks, etc. Yeah, they weigh a good two pounds more (-2.6lbs from stock WRX 16's) each, but gawd, $570/set vs. $1620?

I'd think that 17" would be the win for tire selection and brake size. For auto-x, the brakes wouldn't be a concern, but if you're gonna have engine mods and hit real race tracks, brake upgrades are going to be a necessity, and you just can't get a lot of head capacity under a 16" rim.

-Mike

ive had rota slip for my last track integra. and i only use toyo ra-1 on them , and there is a large selection for 16 rotas.

i just wanted to make sure they would fit over the o6 brakes, sounds like the 16 rotas are the way to go.

I'd think that 17" would be the win for tire selection and brake size. For auto-x, the brakes wouldn't be a concern, but if you're gonna have engine mods and hit real race tracks, brake upgrades are going to be a necessity, and you just can't get a lot of head capacity under a 16" rim.

-Mike

4 pots fit the 16x8 slipstream et48 (as per Suby Dude)

Wouldn't mounting 225's vs. 245's lessen sidewall flex?

Looking at the same wheel the last couple days, didn't realize HOW MUCH cheaper Rotas were vs. Volks, etc. Yeah, they weigh a good two pounds more (-2.6lbs from stock WRX 16's) each, but gawd, $570/set vs. $1620?

-225/50/16 will have .1" more sidewall than a 245/45/16

-225/45/16 (-3.6% shorter than stock )will have .4" less sidewall than a 245/45/16

-225/50/16 will have .1" more sidewall than a 245/45/16

-225/45/16 (-3.6% shorter than stock )will have .4" less sidewall than a 245/45/16

I don't mean the actual height of the sidewall....I mean the width of the tread vs. the width of the wheel. With the 245's you'd have an ~extra inch of width and the tire would be shaped like this / \ instead of like [ ] with the 225's which are closer to the 8 inch wheel width. I would imagine that the wider tire with the ballooning out sidewall and tread would flex a little more. More squirm also means more heat in the tire.

Try the new FK452s with the steel plate in the sidewall. :)

I don't mean the actual height of the sidewall....I mean the width of the tread vs. the width of the wheel. With the 245's you'd have an ~extra inch of width and the tire would be shaped like this / \ instead of like [ ] with the 225's which are closer to the 8 inch wheel width. I would imagine that the wider tire with the ballooning out sidewall and tread would flex a little more. More squirm also means more heat in the tire.

Valid point

245 width works well on 8" wide wheels and does not balloon but actually squares up nicely

The only 16" wheel that I know of that doesn't clear the FHI 4/2 brakes is the 16x7 slipstream (and any of the 16x6.5" oe WRX rims).

For the $ you can't beat the Rota's. If you want lighter yet it will cost.

You'll want some brake ducting before hitting the track (we have heavy cars :().

Check out the 4/2 pot track thread- some good info in there.

Also if you go 245/45 you will need to roll your rear fenders (it may even be necessary w/ some of the "wide" 225's)- no big deal- you can even rent the tool and do it yourself- very easy.

FWIW I fit some 245/45 Z212 Hankooks on my 16x7.5" SSR Comps without needing to roll my fenders... but I'm also running 400# springs in the rear so that may have something to do with it.

FWIW I fit some 245/45 Z212 Hankooks on my 16x7.5" SSR Comps without needing to roll my fenders... but I'm also running 400# springs in the rear so that may have something to do with it.

Your also running a sedan :) Check your email.

edited post #6

Some things I was considering in going looking at a 245/40/17 on 17x8 wheel vs. 245/45/16 on 16x8 wheel:

1) Comparing the same wheel (Rota Slipstreams) and tire (Falken FK451), I came out with the 16" package being ~25lbs lighter (~2.5lbs less per tire and ~4lbs less per wheel).

2) The 16" package does have a 4.3" sidewall (and therefore should feel softer everything else staying the same) versus 3.9" with the proposed 17" package.

3) The 16" package is .8% shorter overall rolling diameter than stock. The 17" package is .6% shorter than stock.

4) FK451 have a stiff sidewall for their class

5) My car (22F/24R sway bars, F/R solid endlinks, rear strut bar, Prodrive springs, stock shocks, 17x7.5, 225/45/17) feels slightly stiffer than I would like to have on a car that is driven ~98% street.

6) The 16" package is about $250 cheaper than the 17" package and offers the opportunity for cheaper tires in the future.

7) 17" looks cooler

8) sharper initial turn-in with 17"

VERDICT: For me, I think it's 16x8 time.



9) Falken FK451, Toyo T1R, Goodyear, and others now come in 245/35/16.

http://www.good-win-racing.com/mazda/miata/60-1279.html

The things only have a diameter of 22.8 inches. Lower, lighter, wider, cheaper, and gearing like a rockcrawler. :lol: Oh, and very crisp steering response.

http://www.geocities.com/gmfwd/pages/tirecalc.html

I find this tire/offset calc to be very helpful.

Go with the 16" rims and tires. Replacement tires are significantly cheaper. On my legacy I run 99 RS Rims w/4pots. It's a great setup. Unless you are racing (and I know 99% of the Subarus doing track days on here are NOT racing) you don't need the "best" put the extra money toward doing more track days. Heck even when we start racing the legacy competatively in NASA races we plan to stick with the 16" rims. You can get different diameter tires for different tracks and get a set of rain tires too.

-mike

Nice heads up on 245/35/16. Man, but so few tire choices.

I remember looking before on the fk452 website. Apparently (unless something has changed), the FK452 will not be offered in 245/35/16 nor 245/45/16. With the FK451 being phased out, looks like there will not be a Falken option in these 16" tire sizes.

The RT-615 is now available in 225-50-R16.

The RT-615 is now available in 225-50-R16.

They don't like the track though...

MX's do though!

And you think 451's do ?

And you think 451's do ?

Not at all...I didn't know they were mentioned...

The 451's, even if you don't mind having them greasy...can't be run at full depth either...

my vote is for 16's as a dedicated track rim. Tires will be cheaper in the long run....as tires will become a big consumable.
If you live in an area that sees snow, the rims can double as snow/winter tire rims during the winter.

If you decide that your braking isn't up to your needs, and you upgrade to brakes that require a 17 inch rim, you'll have no trouble selling your 16 inch rims.

If your looking for a street tire that can do double duty on the track as well- I've been very, very happy w/ the 225/50/16 Bridgestone S02's (the oe rear fitment for the S2000)- these measure much closer to 245 than 225 (my tire was wider than a 245/45/16 T1S). Good sidewall stiffness, decent to good wet performance (there are better wet tires), good dry grip, communicative at their limit (but not overly- squeal, squeal :)) and contrary to the S2000 guys who burn these up rather quick in the rear- they seem to be pretty good in the longevity dept (for a hi-po tire) the ability to rotate I'm sure has helped in that department. The down side (there has to be a downside :)) is cost :(.

Get the Toyo T1R anyway. They're lighter.

EDIT: This was a response to FK451's being phased out. Neither tire is ideal as a race tire. Too hard, wrong tread, etc.

But, then again, the advantages of this size might outweight the disadvantages for particular conditions. Good rain tire?

"Everything is good for something." ---Aspera :D

Hi, Dave!

Make sure you listen to Mike (BIGSKYWRX)! He probably has arguably(?) the best wagon setup for track days! He has a 2004 WRX Wagon with the 4-pot/2-pot brakes, brake ducts, and a lot of other goodies (e.g., front control arms, titanium shims for the brake pads, etc.).

In case you don't remember me, this may help: http://home.earthlink.net/~loren_wong/images/01-14-2006%20Buttonwillow%20Track%20Day%20010_1024.jpg.
I was at the Redline Buttonwillow track days on January 14th and May 20th.

God bless,
Loren

thanks, yeah i remember you loren, thanks for the advice.

by the way here is a google video link of that day in a completely stock 06 wagon stock tires/stock brakes.. I just wanted to get a feel of what the car was like stock before i start messing with it.

And I must say the brakes def need to be upgraded 1st.. even my prelude and integra did better than this car, but it does weight considerably more than my integra.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-846024381438686698&q=wrx+button+willow

sorry for the boring video i had to stop pretty early because my brakes wouldnt stop my car all that well hahahah so i lost a lot of time on braking

Dave,

I really like your video setup! How did you do it? I hope I can do something like that the next time I go!

Loren

i borrowed my friends camcorder mount it cost 40 bucks. its called cruise cam. mounted in the rear head rest and secured it with some cheap velcro straps for added stability.

You'll want some brake ducting before hitting the track (we have heavy cars :().

what is considered a "heavy" car or a "light" car on the track?
I'm assuming my portly 3100 lbs wagon is considered heavy
but what about say, a 'o1 2.5 RS weighing on at around 2800 lbs?
is that still considered pretty heavy?
how much weight does a car need to loose? or is that kind of a weight : power thing [a vette can afford to weigh more because of the extra power]

-sorry for the OT question-

3100 lbs is heavy :) 2800 is pretty heavy, but lighter :)- a 300 lb loss would be very noticable in the braking dept

any loss is beneficial when it comes to braking, unpsrung weight a bonus

All cars are heavy. :D

All cars are heavy. :D

yes, yes they are...

Given it's a wagon why not settle for some 17x7 (to clear 4-pots, rear wheel arch, and front inner fender) and a solid 225/45 setup and not require body modification/car depreciation/RUST. And the wheels and tires are cheap--Rota + falken or kumho. My falkens more than fill up the wheel arches--so much so they sandblast the area behind the front tire due to not having flaired wheel arches like the sedan. Mine are 225/45 on 17x7 et 50 Revolutions. Granted it's not as cool as an STI running 275s, it's a wagon.

I ran 225 16's on 48mm ET before I did the brakes and can say I it felt like the accelleration out of tight stuff in 2nd and 3rd was a little better. Now with the RA-Gears and very heavy 17's, it feel just as good but with a much stiffer sidewall and much better/longer lasting brakes! It's all a trade off.

Post a photo of what you end up with.

thanks, yeah i remember you loren, thanks for the advice.

by the way here is a google video link of that day in a completely stock 06 wagon stock tires/stock brakes.. I just wanted to get a feel of what the car was like stock before i start messing with it.

And I must say the brakes def need to be upgraded 1st.. even my prelude and integra did better than this car, but it does weight considerably more than my integra.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-846024381438686698&q=wrx+button+willow

sorry for the boring video i had to stop pretty early because my brakes wouldnt stop my car all that well hahahah so i lost a lot of time on braking


Hey Dave! It's me Andrew with the silver 02 wrx wagon. You gonna be going to any track days anytime soon?? It's too bad you sold the integra tho... riding with you in that car on my frist track day completely changed my whole perspective on what "fast" really is... that thing was a monster.

My stock brakes were garbage for the track too... I don't know if you remember but I went with the stoptech 328 mm bbk up front and the performance friction brake pads, and with that setup, even the instructor was saying how great the brakes are... NO fade at all. I don't even have to think about the brakes at the track anymore, the problem is simply sovled. If you go to another track day, If you're interested you can try them out for a couple of laps...

thanks. yeah tracking for the summer is on hold becuase its just way too hot!

so ill do all my tracking back to back when it gets cooler.

Just an update, did 3 days at Pocono raceway this past weekend, with the Legacy Turbo getting double duty on 2 of the days. The Advan A048Rs held up well with 16" rims and no rollover or significant wear on them. The MH compound is impressive so far.

-mike

good news :) My medium compounds are thus far still unmounted :(

pressures you were using?

good news :) My medium compounds are thus far still unmounted :(

pressures you were using?

Good question. I think they were at 32 all around give or take. I did notice a bit of center tread wear on my left front tire which is the one that took the most heat/abuse over the course of the weekend. I will run it a few lbs lower next time to prevent the center wear. But very impressive in terms of no feathering, etc.

-mike

Thanks- gives me a rough starting point :) I keep threatening to buy a pyrometer-one of these days :D

Thanks- gives me a rough starting point :) I keep threatening to buy a pyrometer-one of these days :D

Yeah even though I've done 100s of tracks days, I don't consider myself good enough to really warrant all the "technical" stuff that most folks are really hype on, like coilover settings, crazy brake setups, sways, etc. Good tires, pads, and some springs. When I get good enough to warrant all the fancy stuff it'll just make life easier for me. :)

-mike

Yeah even though I've done 100s of tracks days, I don't consider myself good enough to really warrant all the "technical" stuff that most folks are really hype on, like coilover settings, crazy brake setups, sways, etc. Good tires, pads, and some springs. When I get good enough to warranty all the fancy stuff it'll just make life easier for me. :)

-mike

I think you meant "warrant." :)

I think you meant "warrant." :)

Yup typo....

-mike

Given it's a wagon why not settle for some 17x7 (to clear 4-pots, rear wheel arch, and front inner fender) and a solid 225/45 setup and not require body modification/car depreciation/RUST. And the wheels and tires are cheap--Rota + falken or kumho.Other options for cheap 17x7 wheels for the wagon are LGT and 06 WRX takeoffs, both are 17x7 with a 53mm offset, though not as light as some of the Rotas (like the Slipstream or Sub-Zero).

I did some more research.

I wanted to get 235 tires for the 16 inch but they dont make them for brands kuhmo mx, azenis 615 or toyo ra1. The highest I can go is 225 /50 which would also give me a bigger overall tire diameter vs going with 17 inches.

with size 17 in i could get 235 /40 tires in all those brands. i already have a set of street wheels. im looking for a dedicated track tire setup, the 17 inch would give me a smaller overall tire diamter better gearing for the track.

i think the contact patch was 8.9 on the 16 vs 9.3 on 17 inch wheels.

Soooo should i go for the 16x8 with 225/50 tires (biigger diameter less tread) vs 17x8 with 235/40 (shorter diameter wiider contact)????

Im just thinking the 16 should make me slower with bigger diameter and less contact patch vs the 17 , even though the mass on th 17 is moved further out.

Has anyone had this dilema before? car is on stock suspension now and Ill worry about the fender rolling later if i drop it.
thanks for any input from drivers that have had this experience.


I have been tracking for 3 + years consistently but not with the wrx. My background is integra/honda and the cars are much lighter, just wondering if i need that extra tire width on corners since the car is so heavy. I was running 225 on my integra and could out handle most cars on the track. (of course suspension was not stock/ra-1 tires)

Model WRX? If you have a sedan you go comfortably go w/ 245's on 16" (you'll want 8" rims)

235 you can 235/40 (little shorter than stock) for a little better gearing- you'll want 17x8 rims w/ this size, 235/45 (little taller than stock) can get by w/ 17x7.5" rims

235/40 offers some tires you can get in 16"- that's definitely an advantage. There are lots of lightweight 17" rims so it's a good option.

You can easily set up your car nicely on 16 or 17 wheels/tires :)

Model WRX? If you have a sedan you go comfortably go w/ 245's on 16" (you'll want 8" rims)

235 you can 235/40 (little shorter than stock) for a little better gearing- you'll want 17x8 rims w/ this size, 235/45 (little taller than stock) can get by w/ 17x7.5" rims

235/40 offers some tires you can get in 16"- that's definitely an advantage. There are lots of lightweight 17" rims so it's a good option.

You can easily set up your car nicely on 16 or 17 wheels/tires :)

Mike, Dave has a 2006 WRX wagon.

Ahh :)- I think 245/45/16 is still dodable on a wagon too- it will need fender rolling in the rear, as likely will 235/40/17

ok, now i just have to find someone with rota 16x8 slip streams in stock!

oakos is out of stock I know that :(

ok, now i just have to find someone with rota 16x8 slip streams in stock!

when i was looking into the 16x8 slips, i think all i could find was a gunmetal with polished lip through a vendor on honda-tech.com

best price i could find was $490 shipped through machiii.net...but stil same problem as the rest-->up to 90 days wait. but at least they would order them in without a groupbuy--unlike some other vendors.

If you're only running 225's it might just be easier to get a used set of RS wheels...

If you're only running 225's it might just be easier to get a used set of RS wheels...

excellent idea