Hey!

Driving back from work....this thought poped into my head....tell me if this could make sens?

Here are the facts:

As we all know the 2002 model year Camaro/Firebird will the last of this great legend and very sad to see it go away.:(

GM owns 20%(or somthing like that) of Fugy Industries.

GM currently has a prototype with Subaru's engine and AWD system.

Here is the Fact/Rumor:

The Impreza STI coming early in 2003 as a 2004 model.

The theory:

Could GM be looking to build an STI cousin or even a WRX cousin to replace the Camaro/Firebird?

this belongs in the new rumors forum.....but God, I hope not.....GM SUCKS....I would hate to see anything from Subaru associated with them.....that will be a sad sad day...

i heard the replacement for the camaro was going to be some kind of sport/pickup truck

Dam....there really is a new rumors forum...where did that come from!!!

I'll keep you guys posted if I see any weirdo prototypes driving around. I live not far from the F-body plant! :D

The Chevy roadster truck (name is escaping me) is slated to go into production in the next year or two, but is definitely not a Camaro replacement seeing the base price in the mid to high 30k's...

i heard the replacement for the camaro was going to be some kind of sport/pickup truck
Gm actually has a prototype, I saw it a few time in car mags, looks like $hit if you ask me. Pontiac also has a AWD sports car concept( if I remember right).

I could have sworn I read something in a recent Autoweek about more manufacturues jumping on the AWD street car bandwagon....

Fugy Industries?:lol:

**** CHEVY!!!!!

The Chevy Camaro replacement is the SSR truck. The Pontiac AWD Concept is probably the Grand Prix G8 Concept Car, which did the 2000 show circuit.

Oh and Choose, its Fuji not Fugy

Scott:)

Yeah that looks a whole lot better!!!!

My excuse for this major typo is that I was getting ready for a 3some with my GF and WRX while typing this post!!! Please see the "New GF meeting WRX" Post!!!!:devil:

I know an engineer for GM, I'll talk to him tomorrow and see if he know's anything.
Mike

I think the Chevy/Subaru project you're thinking about is the Borrego.

It's about the ugliest thing I've ever seen. I remember seeing pictures of the little booth they had set up for it. Big Chevy logo on the front, painted WR Blue, and with a background of pictures of rally races and the Chevy logo.... as if they have a longstanding rally history.

I realize this may sound stupid but, given that there's been some effort to expand the WRC into the US, maybe GM wants to run something in the WRC that is recognizable as one of their products (a/o/t a product built by a company they have a 20% stake in)?

Scary part of that would be that instead of Imprezas we'd see Borregos representing GM/FHI in US rallies.

Just speculating,
Ed

Where did you hear that GM owns 20% of Fuji Industries????
Considering that they own Opel overseas.
I highly doubt that they have ANYTHING to do with Subaru..
sorry but I'll be the first to say....http://www.probetalk.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_bs.gif

Well if it's not 20%, it is something close to that percentage. I can't remember where I read this maybe it was even here on the I-Club.

Can someone back me up on this one? Thanks!

Then can you explain to me why GM would have a Subaru drivetrain in the Borregos?? If you want me too, this one I can back it up!!!!


PS: And if I'm wrong, I'm wrong!;)

Sidewayz, look HERE (http://www.roadandtrack.com/RoadAndTrack/dai/dai_archive/dai_article_0104.html) scroll down to the story about the Chevy Borrego. In the first paragraph, it explains that GM does indeed own a 20% in Fuji Heavy Industries.

Scott:)

In early 2000, GM purchased a 20% stake in Fuji Heavy Industries, Subaru's parent company.

GM did this in order to purchase AWD technology from the world leader in AWD drivetrain research and production. Fuji consented to the sale in order to get a much needed influx of cash, to have access to GM's worldwide distribution network, and to get advanced emissions control technology. GM does NOT have a vote on the FHI board, nor do they have any "control" over Subaru due to this relationship. The upcoming use of OnStar in Subaru vehicles is not a GM mandate, it is something Subaru of America realized they could take advantage of due to the GM relationship, and thus add value to their product.

GM now has the ability to purchase drivetrains through this cooperative agreement, and have done so to create concept cars that show the direction GM may be going in the sport truck/ute market. GM has very good products overseas (Opel, Holden), but they have had difficulty translating that quality of product to the US market and having it sell in volume. They are beginning to follow Subaru's lead in producing niche vehicles that present less of a compromise to buyers... in short, the new products will be less bland. The Aztek and Rendezvous are the first (failed) attempts at this type of marketing, but GM will get it right eventually.

I'm looking forward to seeing what they come up with. I'm convinced we can make a world class vehicle in the US, it's just a matter of making the right decisions at the executive level and not letting the bean counters determine product design. Kudos to GM for recognizing excellence and innovation and choosing to buy into it. They started on the right path with their aquisition of Saab (once they realized what they'd got), and they're strengthening their product development even further with the relationship with Subaru.

The new crop of GM sport/luxury sedans will be based on the new Saab 9-5 replacement platform, and will feature AWD, probably a hybrid between the Saab Torsen design and the Subaru viscous coupler one.... Subaru's strength is the efficiency of the design and the relative cheapness to build it... Saab and Opel are working together to develop the chassis, with input from Holden in Australia. There will be GM vehicles sold worldwide in the next several years that will compete directly with the likes of the M5, Mercedes AMG series, etc. The status quo is undergoing a SERIOUS upheaval. You will see Saab's variable compression and turbocharging expertise married with Subaru's AWD systems, and an amalgamation of chassis designs to create some very unique high performance AWD vehicles. I can't wait! :D

Here's my take on the GM/Subaru partnership....

GM is, if not the largest, one of the 5 largest companies in the world. Period. This implies massive resources, both monetarily and in equipment and engineering/manufacturing facilities.

GM sells more cars in a month than Subaru sells in a year. So by partnering with GM, Subaru gains a very valuable ally who can pump LOTS of cash into their coffers that didn't have to come from car sales.

I think GM makes some AWESOME drivetrains. The LS1 drivetrain in the C5 Corvette is an engineering marvel, showing just how much is still left to wring out of the "antiquated" pushrod valvetrain technology. (incidentally, does anyone here realize that pushrods are actually the newer technology? Chevy was first to market with a mass produced pushrod engine in the late 40's (the first small block Chevy), whereas the OHC design has been around since the early 20's at least, and probably longer)
The engineering talent at the General is not to be dismissed lightly. There are some VERY smart and innovative minds in Detroit. Unfortunately, they also have some of the most ass backwards, chunderheaded stylists and marketing teams that I've ever seen... Look at how they let the Camaro stagnate, and need I even mention such, ahem, vehicles as the Assfleck (Aztek) or the Rendezvous?

And, with the acquisition of access to Subaru's patents for AWD and engine designs, one can anticipate that you'll be seeing more affordable AWD vehicles on the road. And since GM is intimately familiar with the American market and our love for low end torque, their drivetrain people can probably design a better set of gears that won't destroy themselves when you up the power (another staple of GM cars, cheap performance upgradability).


If Saab comes out with a variable compression turbo engine with an improved (or merely beefed up ) version of Subaru's AWD system, I'd seriously look at one. I would love to get a Viggen, but not if it's FWD only.

I was on
www.thecarconnection.com

a while back and they had a brief story/picture of the camaro replacement...

Stracos

Digital_Boy, ok yes there is still some life left in the OHV market but there is much more potential in the OHC design. for example the DOHC 32 valve 350 chevy put in the C4 ZR1's i believe it was called the LT5.

It's a CRX minivan for christ sake :confused:

.LOL! That's what I always thought of the AZTEK! Once again, **** CHEVY!

Originally posted by Choose
Hey!

Driving back from work....this thought poped into my head....tell me if this could make sens?

Here are the facts:

As we all know the 2002 model year Camaro/Firebird will the last of this great legend and very sad to see it go away.:(

GM owns 20%(or somthing like that) of Fugy Industries.

GM currently has a prototype with Subaru's engine and AWD system.

Here is the Fact/Rumor:

The Impreza STI coming early in 2003 as a 2004 model.

The theory:

Could GM be looking to build an STI cousin or even a WRX cousin to replace the Camaro/Firebird?

i REALLY hope not.......good grief....the THOUGHT alone is enough to make me want to go play in traffic at evening rush hour.........

The new Camaro will not be awd or a turbo-4. The niche has a huge dedication to RWD and v8 availability, and it will continue to do so. There was a brief blurb in car and driver about the replacement and it discussed being based on the C5 platform, with a new C6 to follow shortly after. The tech will move down, essentially. Remember through all this, the car MUST compete with the Mustang on the same field. If the Mustang goes AWD and turbo4, then so will the camaro, but as the camaro seriously undersells when compared to the Mustang (even though, in my opinion, it is a far better car), it will attempt to reestablish some serious dominance. I am betting that the new Camaro will be a good effort, most likely of the long hood/short deck shape of the more classic Camaros. Their foray into big, gross hatchbacks has got to be refined.

As far as the general's stylists, well, they need to go to Epcot less :D:D

I think it would be cool to have a turbo H6 powered, six-speed, all wheel drive Camaro. :D

They could build it at Subaru's plant in Indiana.

-Steve

I have reliable information that the first GM-labled, Subaru built vehicle will be out in 2003, they are actually re-introducing the Chevrolet El Camino, it will be a 2-door AWD , ST-X based vehicle. It will compete with, and be introduced around the same time as the ST-X and it will be built in the Indiana Subaru/Isuzu plant where the Legacy's are currently built.

NO!!!!! :mad:

The Pontiac Vibe is going to have an AWD option, but Toyota is making it for GM. Toyota has the Matrix for themselves. I find it strange that GM would be dealing with two different Japanese companies, nevermind using 2 different AWD systems.
I also remember reading that the Vibe with the larger engine option won't have the AWD option. Whats up with that. American car companies continuosly make dumb decision. Then again, until I bought my WRX, the only thing my family had ever owned was a Ford. Maybe my own dumb decision.

Actually, wouldn't GM now have 3 AWD systems? The one they are getting from Subaru, the one from Toyota (Vibe), then their own home brewed that's in the Montana, Rendezvous, Aztec, etc...:alien:

GM now has the ability to purchase drivetrains through this cooperative agreement, and have done so

I sure hope I don't see an AWD Bonneville with an EJ20tt in it, at least not before I can buy a US B4 (or some derivitive of it):(

Val, if you were more familiar with GM's overseas products, I don't think you'd be so quick to say "**** CHEVY!"....

Opel/Vauxhall and Holden have always had some of the best cars in the world. Now that Saab is part of that portfolio, Opel and Holden have improved their products even further. Now we see some of that engineering and design mentality starting to trickle down to the US market. This is NOT a bad thing....


Does this look like any Chevy you're familiar with? I'll give you a hint... there have been several turbo AWD versions....
http://www.vectra-sport.com/images/Gallery/a-kerr.jpg
http://www.vectra-sport.com/images/Gallery/a-lloyd2.jpg
http://www.vectra-sport.com/images/Gallery/S-Dikdik.jpg


Hmmm, and that's just the lowly Vectra...... I won't even bring this baby into the discussion:
http://www.opel.de/speedster/downloads/galerie/images/pic6.jpg

Hmm, here's another one...

The Holden HSV R8 v2....

What a Pontiac Bonneville wishes it could be. Sport sedan with the LS1 out of the Corvette (tuned to 342hp!), a 6 speed manual, and a track ready suspension.

http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vx2/r8/alt/image1.jpg
http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vx2/r8/alt/image2.jpg



Here's the new one, the SV300.... Holden C4B version of the LS1, pumping out 300kW, or 402.3hp. It EATS M5s for breakfast, in fact it beats the M5 in EVERY performance category. Enjoy the pic.

http://www.hsv.com.au/cars/vx2/sv300/alt/sv300lge.jpg



Can you imagine this kind of product vision, coupled with decent AWD drivetrains? It'd turn the auto market in the US on its ear.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/images/gm01borrcon1.jpg

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/images/gm01borrcon4.jpg

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/images/gm01borrcon2.jpg

Images from http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/001123-1.htm

-Mike-

I read in a recent Autoweek that the Camaro replacement may indeed be AWD.... need to find it... be right back.

--kC

OK found it in the Oct 8th Pub on page 3.

No more F-bodies either

If should come as no shock that General Motors has announced the demise of its F-body Pontiac Firebird and Chevrolet Camaro 'muscle cars' after 35 years of production. GM officials say the cars will cease production in September 2002, and the nameplates will be on 'hiatus' while it decides what's nextr. Among options: resurrecting the Firebird name on an all-wheel-drive sports car based on the Pontiac Rev concept.
Combined sales of the Camaro and Firebird reached a peak of 435,000 cars in 1978 but totalled only 73,000 last year.

--kC

Grand Prix G8 Concept Car uses the AWD drivetrain from the AZTEK.

No... the Gp G8 is a RWD model using the LS1. There is a Buick GSX model using the Aztec AWD system and a SC3800 Gen III (340 HP).

The SSR (due in showrooms any day now)
SSR Website (http://www.chevrolet.com/ssr/)

is also using the LS1, I think this is Chevy's answer to the Lighting , I hope its not as a replacement for the F-Bodies.

I just read somewhere, that GM is toying with a 67-68 body style for a 2005-2006 debut. That won't be bad.


Another Idea I have heard floating around is a Vibe AWD with the SC3800 Gen II. That maybe interesting. With the Matrix Body?

NOTE: The Grand Prix G8 concept is just a rebodied Holden HSV R8. Those Aussies build a hell of a car.

mh_WRX,
The Grand Prix G8 is not RWD, it is AWD. Look HERE (http://www.edmunds.com/news/conceptcarspotlight/articles/42925/article.html) . It uses GMs Versatrak AWD setup.

Scott

I stand corrected. I was going from my memory from the Detroit show. Should have checked myself before hand.

I thought i read somewhere that the camaro was being replaced with a front wheel drive v6 car.

Porter,

I'd have to agree with you on the overseas stuff. I was in Australia last year and those Holdens were nice. However, GM and Chevy of America downright sucks.

Val

http://www.whowon.com/benchracing/attachments/2004camaro%2Ejpg

I'm a GM engineer (who knows the projected product line through '06) and I find this thread hilarious. Keep the speculation coming!

I think everyone should remember that GM (for the most part) creates mass market vehicles. Most of you (and I) are automobile enthusiatsts who find front drive family cars and full size SUVs useless. That's why we drive and mod subarus.

To date the only GM annouced vehicle that uses subaru componentry is the Chevy Borego concept which used a modified legacy chasis/powertrain. As of now its only a concept, nothing more.

Care to elaborate on the AWD Saabs coming out? GM Epsilon platform?

I guess what you're telling us is not to expect too much from GM, that they really are idiots after all who only sell products in the US that they think the US population is STUPID enough to buy?

I wouldn't call us idiots we build what people buy. Only about 8% of US drivers knows how to drive a stick and even less want to do so on a daily basis. American customers evidentally want big trucks. the F150 has been the volume leader forever and SUV sales continue to climb.

Up until this year US sales of imprezas has been in the thousands. GMNA's smallest production run of any one line is the corvette which still cranks out 40k+ a year. The only facility designed for small production runs (Lansing Craft Center) is already allocated for the SSR, so there is no business case to produce a specialized hi-po car with no profit margin. Economy of scale is a b*tch.

that said its good that smaller oems like Subaru can get capital infusions from a mega company like GM. this way Subaru has the money to compete globally and GM can profit from filling niche markets.

As for elaboration I really can't. Its already been said that the next gen 9-3 will be available in a year or so. It is episilon based and I saw some in Trollhatten, Sweeden earlier this year. I don't know anything about an AWD option on that car. Not confirming or denying its existence. I just don't know. Common sense though would preclude a subaru/saab hybrid. Their base engine's are very different layouts which would make plug and play drivetrain swaps costly (ie we wouldn't do it unless there's a good reason)

HokieEngr -

Being there, can you say anything about the GSx/GNX project?

Or upcoming Vibe GT/GTP?

Hokie... (I come from a VT family!)

I know the Saab and Subaru systems aren't interchangeable. The Saab system is similar to the one they used on their rally car in the past 5 years, it's a Torsen system similar to Audi's Quattro. The 9-5 replacement is an Epsilon platform car, not the 9-3 (to my knowledge). The 9-2 coupe is supposed to have an AWD option as well.

Subaru's AWD system is not really all that special. What IS special is how they've been able to produce it cheaply and yet retain good performance and longevity from it. That's a lesson GM wants to learn very dearly.

My comments on GM being idiots was not meant as a flame, I'm just expressing frustration at the fact that GM makes very high quality vehicles in other countries (Opel, Holden) and yet seems incapable of building quality family vehicles here in the US. It's a problem of product design and targeting! GM competes directly with BMW, Mercedes, etc. in other markets and yet makes a decent profit. Why don't they bring those products to the US, and allow us to feel good about buying the products of a US company? The popularity of the European car brands is not due to image, it's due to the fact that the cars are well built and fun to drive. Stick vs. Automatic has nothing to do with it. I can go buy an automatic BMW 3 series for in the 25k range. Why can't I buy a GM vehicle domestically with the same quality and similar performance? If people are now paying 30k for a poorly engineered Pontiac, wouldn't they also pay 30k for a Pontiac with better design?

I get GM vehicles as rental cars all the time. Impalas, Monte Carlos, Sunfires, Grand Ams, Luminas, Bonnevilles.... Their dynamic limits are so ridiculously low that I feel unsafe being on the road in them because I know if I need to make an emergency maneuver the car will probably lose traction. I put an Impala into a ditch in Colorado because the car abruptly lost traction in a medium 50mph sweeper. My old Saab has more grip on bald tires than that Impala with 3000 miles on it.

Give me some insight into all this. I know GM is capable of making amazing vehicles, just look at the Corvette. Why is that level of fundamental engineering not present in the other product lines?

nope 9-3 is epsilon and the 9-5 is not. Espsilon has several 'flavors' and the 9-5 was originally going to be epsilon as well but now its not.

I'll reply to the rest in detail, but ironically I'm at work and don't have the time right now. :)

Cool, thanks for your time BTW. It's awesome to talk to somebody finally. :D

I'll say it again, **** GMC and Chevy (of america)!!!:lol: :lol:

Holdens rule however.

Hey "HokieEngr"!

How do your GM co-workers like your WRX?? Now that GM owns 20% of Fuji Industries, it's ok for GM employees to buy Subaru cars? :D

Oh wait a minute.....we are on to you now....you are part of the conspiracy!!!! Infiltrating the I-club..getting a WRX wagon......admit it, you are a engineer working on the new GM rally supercar!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

PS: Somebody stop me!!!

And now back to your regular programing!!!:p

Silver_Fox:
As a former GM engineer ... GM is a volume driven company with a fleet of non-descript appliances. Gm generally has one definitive vehicle to represent an image ... the Corvette. The Vette is the cutting edge of old technology - but still VERY effective.

GM has shown no signs of endorsing a WRC program, so I don't think a "GM-STi" will hit the market in the forseeable future. I believe the corporate bean counters are looking forward to "borrowing" Subaru's fuel-efficient, light weight AWD technology to produce the new breed of sport utes and sport cutes to meet the mandated CAFE requirements.

But you never know ... It took the Yenko and Motion muscle cars (and the Mustang) to bring GM out of its anti motorsports closet and start the COPO program. If the competetion and public opinion become overwhelming ... and there is enough market share potential ... GM will produce a car for the occasion. Unfortunately, I forsee a "Cavalier STi" with stick on scoop, some stick on stripes and maybe a non-functional second exaust outlet. :lol:

Too late...Chevy Borrego. Do the features sound familiar?

http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/img/concepts/2001/borrego4.jpg
The segment-busting Borrego concept from Chevrolet combines the road-taming agility of a rally car with the traditional rock-hard toughness of a Chevy. The all-wheel drive vehicle can commute very comfortably during the weekdays and then let off a little steam on the weekends.

Chevrolet Borrego
A rugged and fun "sports adventure vehicle," the Borrego debuted at the Los Angeles Auto Show as a weekday commuter and weekend exploration machine. Its key feature is an Avalanche-inspired midgate that converts the Borrego from a two-person runabout to four-passenger commuter. The cargo compartment likewise changes from a six-foot bed to three-foot cargo area. The Borrego borrows a sturdy all-wheel-drive H-4 drivetrain and turbocharged horizontally opposed four-cylinder engine from alliance partner Subaru. For safer adventures, the Borrego features OnStar and a portable GPS navigation system.http://www.motortrend.com/autoshows/chicago01/images/ChevyBorrego.jpg

Responses:

Porter- GMNA's products are more global than you may realize. The difference between an opel vectra, saturn L series, and saab 9-5 is not much. Same with the holden commodore (i think that's the one) and a grand prix. or current generation catera and an opel omega. Even the astra and cavilier have a common past. the difference is mostly chasis tuning. The markets in Europe and the US are vastly different. The roads, cost structure, vehicle expectations, market desire are all totally different. Case in point: you can not give a way a PT cruiser in the UK. They hate them.

MOST people in this country do not drive the way enthusiests do. they don't like to feel bumps in the road or try to find the limit of their tires. They drive from A to B, like to sit up high, and feel safe. Low in pull away from a stop light is a measure of performance not 0-60's 1/4 mi, or lateral g's.

High quality comes at a cost. GM Europe doesn't really compete with mercedes and bmw. On some levels yes but BMW is not a volume producer and Mercedes is up class. Direct competition would be more like VW and Ford Europe (including Volvo). Opel is a middle pack brand, Saab is too. The difference is GME does NOT make money. They were in the red last year and I don't think this year is any better. GMNA had to bail them out last year with our profit margins. So if a GME vehicle can not even compete in its own market it has no chance if wooing the fickle americans.

And holden vehicle is nearly impossilbe to import. They have very different standards for emissions, fuel economy, and crash. It'd cost too much to bring it up to US fed. standards, not to mention there's no mechanism in place for mass shipping of vehicles from australia

Furthermore you're equating performance with good engineering. The corvette does what it does cuz it cost 40,000 some dollars. A caviler costs 12k. give me another 28k and I'll make a caviler dance around a vette. Good engineering is putting reliable cars on the road that people will buy and being able to make a business out of it.

That all said, the Vette is the only GMNA car I'd buy for the price. Cuz I am outside of that 95% person that most gm cars are made for.

mh_wrx- I know nothing about the GNX but I've driven a vibe gt. If you like the celica GTS and want to sit higher, this is your car. A little slow for my taste but its fun and it'll sell. The GTP doesn't exist but I did read of a dealer installed supercharger option available later in the year. I think you'll see some stuff like that at SEMA.

Val- **** the chevy cars indeed: the malibu and impala are crap but those 800 series trucks pay my salary. Vette's rock though.

Choose- there are 3 types of GM employees. Car guys who happen to work here (me), die hard GM guys who thinks change is bad, and non car people who like getting a discount. Group 1 likes my car. Group 2 can not comprehend why I spent that much money on a jap box when I could've got a monte carlo (cold shudder), and group 3 thinks the blue is pretty.

T-Wrex 2 - I think there is nothing old technology about the vette. MR shocks, titanium wheels/exhaust, HUD, 6spd. Yeh its got push rods but you find me an engine that gets that kind of output, with the same fuel economy, emissions, and cost. It doesn't exist.

There's no such thing as light weight awd. CAFE is volume based, so you beat it by selling more four bangers to raise your average. I've worked a lot on CAFE stuff, incremental changes in each vehicle won't cut it if the mandate changes a lot. A drastic consumer shift from heavy SUVs to smaller cars is the only way.

So you haven't heard that the GNX will make it to production??

New Buick Regal GNX (http://207.37.252.232/events/sema/b001023a.htm)

Darn, I was hoping for some new goodies from GM for my Current GS. :mad:

Overall, that was a great and informitive post.

Thank you.

Originally posted by HokieEngr
GMNA's products are more global than you may realize. The difference between an opel vectra, saturn L series, and saab 9-5 is not much. Same with the holden commodore (i think that's the one) and a grand prix. or current generation catera and an opel omega. Even the astra and cavilier have a common past. the difference is mostly chasis tuning. The markets in Europe and the US are vastly different. The roads, cost structure, vehicle expectations, market desire are all totally different. Case in point: you can not give a way a PT cruiser in the UK. They hate them.

No, I'm aware of the family relationships among GM's chassis segments. I'm just continually amazed that GM is capable of turning good cars into CRAP through something as simple as chassis tuning. The Opel Vectra and Saturn L are very similar vehicles, though the Saturn looks like crap compared to the Vectra, which I consider to be a very attractive car. The Saab I wouldn't put in the same class due to its far superior handling, build quality, and engine tuning, though they do share a common chassis architecture. I've spent a lot of time behind the wheel of a 9-5 Aero, so I may be biased. :D

The Catera/Omega relationship has always pissed me off. GM takes a perfectly good mid-level sport sedan that was designed to compete with the likes of BMW and Peugeot, and decide to bring it to the US as a Cadillac. The concept worked. What they actually did was cheapen the whole vehicle, detune the engine, take all the good parts out of the suspension, and make it handle like a tub of lard, not to mention that they overcharged for it and had a RUBBER DUCK as their spokesman. No WONDER it didn't sell!

If they had woken up and paid more attention to what BMW and Mercedes were doing, maybe it could have revolutionized the brand. As it is, the only Cadillac currently worth driving is the STS, and it's overpriced compared to the competition. 300hp means nothing if the slushbox won't deliver it to the road in a responsive fashion, though it's certainly the best effort by Cadillac to date.

Thanks again for chatting with us on this, by the way. Thumbs up.

I know of the GNX concept car but that's all it is a show car. We make dozens of vehicles like this a year, but they never make it to production for whatever reason. I thought the grand am SC/T was very promising (supercharged 3.4L V6, 5spd, suspension upgrades) but it didn't make it. I wouldn't bet on the GNX either. The average age of a buick customer is something like 112, and most of them could care less about supercharging. The care about bench seats and chrome grills. If anything, that powertrain would be put in a pontiac grand prix special edition of some sort. GPX maybe? Not that it'll happen or anything.

O.K. I know this is trivial but it is Fuji Heavy Industries.

Man, anyone that thinks GM can't come out with a car that is as good as anything you have ever seen, than your just like those people that think Subarus are a mom bomb car company. And you don't really know what they are capable of doing. Look at it this way. Alot of people thought Subaru was just another car company until the WRX came out. Real car nuts knew about the STI and the WRC and what Subaru was really capable of doing. Now I wouldn't doubt for a second that GM could pull a great car out of there hat.

Jeffhttp://www.plauder-smilies.de/wavey.gif

I agree.

Porter, I've driven a 9-5 with an aero chasis that was hand tuned by saab engineers and prodrive (yes prodrive!). Best production front driver I've ever been in.

As for caddy they're really turning around. The rear drive sigma platform cars are going to be pretty sweet. I've driven the catera replacement and its waaaaay better. Plus you can get a 5spd. A first for caddy in 30+ years.

Nice!

Hokie-

wait a minute.. not to start a pissing match here, because you obviously like the vette... and that's fine. but...

Yeh its got push rods but you find me an engine that gets that kind of output, with the same fuel economy, emissions, and cost. It doesn't exist.

what are its stats again? because I dont recall it being that impressive...

what about the 2L S2000 engine...
or B18c5 (typeR)....

blah blah blah...:)

I just pulled this off our intranet:

MY02 LS6 engine (vette z06)

Type:
5.7L V8

Displacement:
5665cc

Horsepower:
405 @ 6000 rpm

Torque (lb-ft):
400 @ 4800 rpm

Adjusted EPA FE values (sticker numbers)
city- 19
hwy - 28

______

Pretty nice eh? For a design that's like 40 years old.

Not bad...:)

I guess I just like the idea of a 2L doing 240hp N/A...

the hp/L ratio is insane....

Mmmm... Chevy Impreza...

The GNX show car has been lowered 1 1/2 inches from the production Regal GS. Custom-made polished aluminum spoked 18-inch HRE wheels and low-profile 255/45ZR16 Michelin performance tires provide a powerful, aggressive stance.

I sure hope that rubber stretches really well !

Brad

hey why is everyone bashen chevy/gm? my dads camaro (96 ss w/over 400 hp soon to be 406 from 350 will be around 500 hp) will eat are wrx's for breakfast...modded to there limits(i.e. tranny) so maybe we can take some help from chevy if they offered. keep open minds....if that 2 door awd pontiac that looks like a grand am came out, id prob trade the rex in for it 350 hp v8 awd would do me fine.

TaiChih ...

You are correct ... Thieves they are. I didn't think they would move in that fast ... really unlike GM to be so proactive! One good thing may come of this ... GM could make a nice, smooth shifting 6-speed manual tranny for the Borrego. I can't afford an STi 6-speed to replace my stock WRX coffee grinder ... Maybe there will be some junk yard replacements available soon!:rolleyes:

Well as this thread is dying down, I'd like say thanks to "HokieEngr" for giving us an inside look into GM.

But I still beleive that Subaru will probably spark something up in GM. For good or bad!!!:devil:

I guess will just have to wait and see!