...well, technically without any brakes, your car oughta go faster right? :devil:

had another example today.

coming to a stop sign.

ripped up asphalt > a dropoff into rough, very loose, sandy gravel.

slid half way into the intersection.

i'm gonna go back, pull the fuse and see if decelleration is significantly improved.

Where is the fuse?

I'll search...

ok.

knowing there is a problem I should be REAL careful right?

well I was only being careful in the areas that "looked like" the kind of place this would happen.

Yesterday I was going to jiu jitsu class and pulling into the far end of the parking lot (the empty end).

I pull in quick to the lot (a right turn from the street 90 degrees) don't know how fast but not worrisome.

Then pull a 180 degree left turn to come into the parking space braking fairly hard as I go (leaving a mark on the asphalt) hitting the brakes as I think I'll come to a stop, ABS kicks in with 7 feet left in the spot. Stay on all the way to the end where I bump into the pole at the end of the spot marking my bumper badly (effectively requiring replacement). Stupid me did not even TRY to come off and back on to reset. Just held it there stunned.

I just sat there, still stunned, feeling like crying. I know a lot of you know-it-alls will say "you were driving too hard", "you don't understand ABS", "it's your fault". You all can have a monkey!

The lot was clean, dry asphalt with a couple of rocks scattered on it. NOT where I was expecting to have a problem.

THE IRONY:

I had the ABS switch mod printout with me to buy the stuff after class so I could experiment with it on and off in the same situation.

I called scott schadle. he commiserated and said I should call my insurance. I took pictures right then of the entire the scene. The approach, the turns, the "finish". I took pics of the tire marks and the resulting damage. I took a pic of the printout of the ABS mod with my cellphone showing date and time to show that I already had a problem and was looking into it.

Until Subaru fesses to this I'm sure everyone will say it is my fault.

My only fault is not driving like a granny with FAULTY ABS!!!!

Yeah, I know. I'm an idiot.

Now I don't wanna drive my car. I don't feel that I can trust it.

This is seriously ruining my new car experience!

Wonder if I can sue for emotional damages?! :)

Seriously, though, I feel sick to my stomach everytime I think of it and don't feel like driving at all!

Um, HELLO!?

Why isn't anyone asking their dealer to get the new pump like I did. IT FIXES THE PROBLEM! Bactrack a couple pages and look for the part number.

eeeeediots!

Originally posted by bjteel
Um, HELLO!?

Why isn't anyone asking their dealer to get the new pump like I did. IT FIXES THE PROBLEM! Bactrack a couple pages and look for the part number.

eeeeediots!

Instead of calling us idiots, please contact Scott Schadle (NHTSA) and tell him. Then the NHTSA can force a recall and the problem is not only taken care of for us idiots, but also people who are not on the list and don't even know that they may have a problem.

[B]Ifr you don;t want to call, at least take the time to go to the NHTSA website (since YOU are not an idiot, you can easily find http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/ivoq/default.htm without our help) and reprot what happened and what the cure was.

When I was spoke to Schadle, he wanted to find out if anyone knew what the actual failure was and what the cure was.

Help him. Help us.

And please, there is no reason to be snide about this.
Oh, how does the braking action witht he new pump compare when you have the ABS fuse in or out? I find that my brakes are much quicker to act and much more pwoerful without the ABS fuse in.

did the ABS Mod Yesterday.

Took the car out in a torrential downpour and practiced threshhold braking.

Brakes are completely different (totally controllable).

locked up my wheels a few times to prove that I could and to note the lock point.

BJBoy,

Thanks for being an Ahole.
pretty cruel considering the circumstances.
I look forward to the opportunity to do unto you the same way sometime in the future.

Many people on this thread went to the dealer only to be told nothing was wrong.

I should have at least tried. I didn't, I'm an idiot. Thanks for reminding me.

First off Rally_wannabee, sorry to hear about the broken car. But you did trigger me to check something.

After several hours of reading ------

So far there are 58 people who have posted to this thread with reports of major reduction of braking force and the dead peddle effect. Most all are reporting the problem near 15 - 35 mph with a handfull at slower speeds. Nearly 100% report an essential ingredient is the presence of a bump, a washboard ripple surface, a RR track, or steel expansion joint and or man hole cover, or a sandy road shoulder or between lane collection of sand which creates an abrupt transition from dry asphalt braking conditions to low traction braking conditions.

I also noticed that of the 41 who gave meaningful descriptions of the events, 26 hit the sudden change in surface while going streight (ie stopping for a light), and 15 indentified that their "event" was associated with a turn or braking for a turn or a sudden lane change.

This leads me to suspect that a major part of the problem may be the hold low braking of the rear wheels and asymetrical braking surfaces.

For example, you only hit the manhole cover with the wheels on one side of the car, or cross RR tracks that are at a significant angle to the line of travel, or you pull onto a sandy road shoulder or while making a lane change or setting up a sharp turn into a parking lot, you unload one of the inside tires in combination with a bump or some other situation that causes the inside tire to loose traction and stop.

A large number ( uncounted) also are involved with a situation where a down shift, and compression braking is either likely or certain during the execution of the braking event.
My hypothosis is that when you brake moderately from reasonable speed, heading down hill, or following a short burst of acceleration, the ABS computes a goofy "dummy vehicle speed", and or, you unload one of the rear tires while down shifting and changing lanes.

The combined effects of the loss of traction of one rear wheel, and the sudden deceleration of the wheel due to both, brake effects and compression braking causes wheel lockup at low brake effort, (just as you begin the brake application) the system holds both rear wheels to the system pressure when the the unloaded wheel lost traction, which is a very low line pressure if you have just begun braking when the tire unloads.

As a Result you loose essentially all the the braking effect on the rear wheels, reducing your brake effort to about 60% of what it should be. Now if at that moment you also bounce a front wheel off the ground, the ABS using independent control of the front wheels, releases the brake effort on that wheel you have only about 30% brake effort. In other words you can't stop until the system gets things sorted out, your recycle the brake system so it goes through the computation process for your dummy vehicle speed, or you crap your pants while traveling about 30 - 50 ft farther than you should have.

This would explain the unpredictibility of it, as you would have to have several events occur in exactly the right order for this massive brake effort reduction to happen.


Just an observation in case it helps.

A number have also reported the event was associated with a brief period of acceleration (ie to make a light immediately followed by the braking event) -- could this confuse the G sensor or lead to bogus dummy vehicle speed computation ?

By the way, how many of you who have reported a RR track or expansion joint being the cause, was that road feature at a significant angle to your direction of travel ?

How many of you who reported it happening as you braked for a turn, had actually started a sideways motion, like turning out prior to turning in, or had begun the actual turn so as to unload one of the rear wheels significantly ?


Larry

Thanks for the thoughts Larry.

For what it's worth, the majority of times it's happened to me, I'm hitting bumps/tracks/cracks straight-on, not at angles. Also, no sudded acceleration preceded the incidents. I also haven't found definitive evidence that it matters when only the right or left side hits changine surfaces, versus both front wheels hitting at the same time.

Thanks. I think one of the things everyone needs to keep in mind, is if the problem is as subtle as it appears. (ie random and difficult to reproduce) It may have several mechanisms that can cause the odd behavior.

If it is a logic error in the code or some odd interaction of the sensors and the physical vehicle dynamics there are either different failure modes or different ways to trigger one failure mode. That would explain why what is a routine failure for one individual is a rare and odd event for another.

Just hoping my musings will trigger some recall of specific details of the events, or different approaches for the people trying to replicate this issue. If just one person can get a reliable and reproducable series of events the wizards can throw some instrumentation at the problem and figure out what is happening.

Larry

I too have noticed this approaching stoplights (one in particular near where I live).

In particular:

1. Driving straight on.

2. Hitting ridges/bumps in the road while braking ( I don't think that it's immediately when I brake, i.e. I am already braking when I hit the bump)

3. I believe the bump is at an angle, as most bumps would be (one tire hits before another) but I could be wrong.

4. I have experienced this several times but NOT all times!

The effect has only been disconcerting for me (not soil-my-pants scary) because I had already been braking and slowing down for a good distance. It has surprised me, however, and I do believe it is cause for alarm. I would be willing to try to test this out again to replicate/change variables.

Well, as some would note a few posts back, once I caught hold of this thread, I said I would volunteer to try out this stuff on my car as often as I could. As stated previously, I travel over a set of abandoned RR tracks on my way to work (when I'm not running late :) ) Well, this morning, the roads were still nicely wet from rain last night, and the humidity was EXTREMELY high. I've been going about 25-35 mph over the tracks, and there is a slight incline leading up to them.

I've been hitting my brakes at the apex (as close to it as I can find) and usually stop in VERY short order (I'm obviously doing this when there isn't a soul around.)

Well, this morning, "it" happened. I swear I did it just like I "always" did (probably about a dozen times so far) and the brake pedal went practically to the floor and the car was horrendously sluggish to stop -- probably twice the distance of my other stops. I think of this thing almost like a ghost -- I believed all of you 100% but something in my head said, "But not my car" until today. I believe :alien:

Anyway, I continued down the road (about another 1/2 mile until I get to a "real" street) and I slammed on the brakes again -- no problem - ABS kicked in, but stopped the car VERY quickly, just to confirm that in fact the road wasn't "that" slippery.

I'll keep trying it, but this is the first time it ever happened. Every time I think I prepare myself to "expect it" so I didn't attempt to modulate the brake pedal -- if it happens again, I will try that.

Originally posted by hotrod

Just an observation in case it helps.

A number have also reported the event was associated with a brief period of acceleration (ie to make a light immediately followed by the braking event) -- could this confuse the G sensor or lead to bogus dummy vehicle speed computation ?

Larry

the one time I had it happen, I was in downtown Fairfax, Va. (There are many people fromt he Metro DC area here, so they will know the area). It was on 236 in front of Harris Teeter on a bombpy section of road. I was accelerating on a bumbpy section of road when a woman in an Accord rudely cut me off. I slammed on the brakes and immediatly had the ABS go into action.

My first impression were that the RE-92s really sucked. (True - nothing has changed about that). 600 miles later, I repalced the tires and I was not able to duplicate the problem.

Even so, I puleld the ABS fuse and the first thing I noticed was the the brakes were really good without the ABS.

I appreciate the counting that you did. You should forward your message to Scott Shadel at the NHTSA and to Subaru on their web site. do not expect an aknowledgement of a problem from Subaru. That does nto mean they aren;t taking it seriously or that theya re nto looking into it.

We do not have the design information nor the test equipment to decide of the problem if hydraulic pump, sensors, software, or whatever to resolve the problem.

One last thing: your idea of a wheel losing contact witht he ground MAY be a clue to my case. The RE-92 is a very soft sidewall tire and may well loose traction and/or contact on a bomp. Teh Proxes TS-1 does not do that, beside dramatically cutting the lean in corners.

A side bar: On the RX-7 news letter somone reported seeing a car carrier full of Ford SUVs being shipped on completely deflated tires! Want to bet what that does to sidewall integrity? When those tires fail, who is going to get the blame?

Sorry getting in this late, but here goes . . . .

I have not really had problems out on the street. But in AutoX, I am forced to remove my ABS fuse if I ever want to stop in time (EVERY time) to make a turn, or avoid hitting the timing equipment placed on a tight finish. If I have the ABS active, I go STRAIGHT though the pylons!!!!! Foot full on the brakes, and yet I roll right on by . . . . it scares the cr*p out of me! As you can tell by my screen name, I used to race a BMW Z3 Coupe. I NEVER had to disable its ABS, ever. Step on the brake pedal in that car hard, and you could go right through the windshield! It clamped down like no tomorrow. So this ABS on the WRX is too sensitive!!!!!!

Heck, now when I drive on the streets, I worry if I ever have to stop hard and sudden!!!! It really SCARES me! And I have been driving since 1971, had a ton of cars (even old Brit sports cars - and their junk Girling brakes were even better than the WRX with ABS!!!!), and been doing track/AutoX since 1974. Never ever had problems like this!

z3.

If you don't feel safe (and I don't think you should) do this:

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=154562

I did this in my car and have a great feeling of satisfaction seeing that little ABS light in the dash and knowing I can switch it off when ever I want (although, why would I???!!!)

BTW, it's not "too sensitive" it's FAULTY.

with 18498 views and over 500 replies this is a very large isssue. I have had it happen to me at least 4 times. It has happened on pavement and on dirt. I thought that with "ABS" the tires aren't supposed to lock up, mine have going into a corner on a slightly rough street. The notion that it is the tires is BS, it happen to me on a fire road that had a chatter box grade to it. The notion that you need to pump the brakes is BS, it doesn't work. By the way with "ABS" you aren't supposed to pump the brake. I get tired of reading all the "non believers" replies that this is somehow our fault. Wait till it happens to you, I just hope some pedestrian doesn't step off the curb in front off you on a rough section of pavement, because you will hit him. It feels like this, have you ever driven through a large puddle then had to hit your brakes and they aren't there:eek: you freak. You pump until they dry off some hoping that they will grab. The only difference is with "ABS" you shouldn't have to PUMP your brakes to get them to work. My advice is take it to the dealer, make them write up a inspection order, have them look at it. If they find nothing fine, at least we will have documentation that there is a problem. Get enough of these and hopefully something can be done about it. Remember that car behind you that may not come to a stop may be a WRX.

I really like the outback sport and was very close to getting one before I read all these posts about the abs + bumps. Almost all of the posts in the various threads come from wrx owners. Is this because they are more likely to join a discussion board or is it because the other imprezas don't have this problem? The nhtsa only specifies impreza on their consumer complaintes web site, and not the model. I haven't owned a car in almost 30 years and don't want to start out with brake problems of all things. Thanks.

AFAIK this problem is possible in any Impreza with the 4-channel, 4-sensor ABS.
As much as I'd like to load the torpedo tubes, and hit 'em in the pocket-book by saying you should stay away from the Impreza, I can't in good conscience say that even if I KNEW about the problem, that it would have dissuaded me from owning an Impreza.
It's my feeling that the WRX is getting the most reports because most WRX/RS owners are 'enthusiasts' that KNOW how ABS is supposed to work, and are at least marginally more knowledgable than you're average teeming-masses.
It's also safe to assume that just a small sample of the vehicles exhibit this problem since I've got 2 auto-x buddies with WRX's that have never experienced it.
Although there's an outside chance that Subaru might get a little more serious about helping us if they saw they were loosing business because of this issue. I'd still recommend one to my friends.

Originally posted by wantacar
I really like the outback sport and was very close to getting one before I read all these posts about the abs + bumps. Almost all of the posts in the various threads come from wrx owners. Is this because they are more likely to join a discussion board or is it because the other imprezas don't have this problem? The nhtsa only specifies impreza on their consumer complaintes web site, and not the model. I haven't owned a car in almost 30 years and don't want to start out with brake problems of all things. Thanks.

My daughter has a 2002 Outback Sport with automatic and has had no problems. She lvoes the car. They also have a 2002 Civic and feel thta the Outback is a much better vehicle.

The WRX has four-wheel disk brakes, the others have disc front and drum rear. It is quite probable that the ABS is programmed differently for the two different brake systems.

If this problem was with all Imprezzas, then there would be reports of it.

I experienced the problem on my WRX once and not severely. I changed tires and pulled the ABS fuse. I would still buy the car knowing this.

Has anyone gone to the dealer and brought this up? Have they offered any fixes? This could be a real problem, so I thought maybe SOMEONE took their car in to have the service guys see if they could explain it. I would think that if any of these stories reached their ears, they'd be VERY interested in seeing if their was a problem. This is a potential safety problem and, therefore, a BIG concern for Subaru.

Originally posted by WashUJon
Has anyone gone to the dealer and brought this up? Have they offered any fixes? This could be a real problem, so I thought maybe SOMEONE took their car in to have the service guys see if they could explain it. I would think that if any of these stories reached their ears, they'd be VERY interested in seeing if their was a problem. This is a potential safety problem and, therefore, a BIG concern for Subaru.

:rolleyes: There's a novel idea. Wow, the dealer...I never thought of that!:rolleyes:

..... read the thread

This is a potential safety problem and, therefore, a BIG concern for Subaru.

You would think so, wouldn't you:rolleyes:......

My dealer has spent all of about two miles trying to "reproduce" the problem. Yesterday, a regional manager drove it-he went about 6 miles with. It only happens once every FIVE HUNDRED miles or so, so I'm not at all surprised that it hasn't happened while they were driving it. And if they can't reproduce it, they are unwilling to try to fix it......SOA also claims that I am the only one who has complained about this issue.....

So do you think it would be at all worthwhile to compile and print this entire thread and take it to my dealer?? I would do it in such a fashion that would say,

"Hey - just wanted to let you know that there is a problem with the car. Others have reported it and have not been able to reproduce it, and you probably won't be able to because you guys probably don't really care about it.

But I figured I'd give you the benefit of the doubt and let you peruse through several weeks of text from other frightened Subaru owners just so you can have it on file..."

Maybe if we all print this stuff out and drop it off at our respective dealers, we'll create a little bit of arousal.

Worth a shot?

When I took my WRX in, I also went armed with printouts (lots of 'em) on Clutch Shudder, Fuel Leaks, CEL issues, and early parts of this ABS thread. Just to make it easier on them I also typed up a summary with all pertinent info and referenced it to the threads. I kindly explained to the service manager that while I wasn't trying to be a jerk about it. I figured on my 3rd trip to a dealer (first time to this one). I'd bring a little info so that I didn't have to drive a rental for 3 days only to come back and find a whole list of 'couldn't reproduce problem' and dumb questions like 'did you check your tire pressure?' and 'is this your first manual transmission car?'. The Svc Mgr was nice enough and I actually thought something might get done this time. I got a call the next day that I could pick up the car, nothing was found. I was more than a little pissed at this point, and told them to check it again while I contacted SOA. Miraculously about 15 minutes after I got off the phone with the SOA rep (was very nice to him, but firm), the dealer called back and was suddenly able to reproduce the fuel leak and the clutch shudder. I figured at least this was progress, and to count my blessings. They fixed the fuel leak (and spilled power steering fluid all inside the exhaust heat shields, that smelled good for a week) and replaced the clutch under warranty. When I picked up the car I asked to speak to the tech that did the work, when I asked him about the ABS issue he looked at me like there were aliens popping out of my ears. I asked him if he'd read the documentation that I included. He said that he never saw it. I brought it to him, he glanced at the first page and said "this is off the internet isn't it....sorry but we can't do anything unless we can reproduce the problem here." I'm going back to the dealer to have them fix my A/C and I'll bring up the ABS yet again.

"...A little something called THE INTERNET..."

-Homer Simpson


Yeah - you know the only thing the Internet is good for is pr0n and hAx0r1ng... :rolleyes:

Well, I'll print out the stuff and just LEAVE it with the service tech dept and see if ANYTHING comes out of it. Chances are slim, but who knows...

/<

I have an 02 wrx, love it, brakes are very sensitive, if you have a manual shift and you want to come to a fast stop you MUST DOWNSHIFT HEAVILY. Read the manual it is a 30 -70 ratio, downshifting is your engine break and a manual shift relies on that for up to 70% of your breaking ability. For automatics this may be different i don't know.. however, I know that I avoid the mushy break syndrome if I put that baby in 2nd or jam it in 1st if it is a panic break cituation.


any opinions would be interesting ;)

thanks
robert
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Originally posted by rjpit
I have an 02 wrx, love it, brakes are very sensitive, if you have a manual shift and you want to come to a fast stop you MUST DOWNSHIFT HEAVILY. Read the manual it is a 30 -70 ratio, downshifting is your engine break and a manual shift relies on that for up to 70% of your breaking ability. For automatics this may be different i don't know.. however, I know that I avoid the mushy break syndrome if I put that baby in 2nd or jam it in 1st if it is a panic break cituation.


any opinions would be interesting ;)

thanks
robert
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

You want an opinon: I have an opinion!

1. Disk brakes are pwoerful enough to stop the car on their own.

2. Engine braking as 30% of slowing down? No way. Thatwent out with fading drum brakes on race cars.

3. Maybe the booster isn't pwoerful enough?

In a panic stop, I jsut want to jam ont hebrakes and let the abs do it's thing. Tanking time to down shift is redicules.

Originally posted by rjpit
I have an 02 wrx, love it, brakes are very sensitive, if you have a manual shift and you want to come to a fast stop you MUST DOWNSHIFT HEAVILY. Read the manual it is a 30 -70 ratio, downshifting is your engine break and a manual shift relies on that for up to 70% of your breaking ability. For automatics this may be different i don't know.. however, I know that I avoid the mushy break syndrome if I put that baby in 2nd or jam it in 1st if it is a panic break cituation.


any opinions would be interesting ;)

thanks
robert
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

You want an opinon: I have an opinion!

1. Disk brakes are powerful enough to stop the car on their own.

2. Engine braking as 30% of slowing down? No way. That went out with fading drum brakes on race cars.

3. Maybe the booster isn't pwoerful enough?

In a panic stop, I just want to jam on the brakesand let the ABS do it's thing. Taking time to down shift is redicules.

re: One last thing: your idea of a wheel losing contact witht he ground MAY be a clue to my case. The RE-92 is a very soft sidewall tire and may well loose traction and/or contact on a bomp. Teh Proxes TS-1 does not do that, beside dramatically cutting the lean in corners-------------------------------------------

For what it's worth changing my tires to Ts1 225's has eliminated
the problem for me. Whether on Railroad tracks, manhole covers,
whatever, I can no longer produce the problem, this goes back
to March and 5k miles ago, when I switched tires.

I wonder if the problem happens only in US and not Europe
or Japan because we get different tires. Maybe something is
awry (mismatched), between the ABS and RE-92's?

Then again, I don't think this should ever happen with "any" street legal tires.


:confused:

Originally posted by strangerq
re: One last thing: your idea of a wheel losing contact witht he ground MAY be a clue to my case. The RE-92 is a very soft sidewall tire and may well loose traction and/or contact on a bomp. Teh Proxes TS-1 does not do that, beside dramatically cutting the lean in corners-------------------------------------------

For what it's worth changing my tires to Ts1 225's has eliminated
the problem for me. Whether on Railroad tracks, manhole covers,
whatever, I can no longer produce the problem, this goes back
to March and 5k miles ago, when I switched tires.

I wonder if the problem happens only in US and not Europe
or Japan because we get different tires. Maybe something is
awry (mismatched), between the ABS and RE-92's?

Then again, I don't think this should ever happen with "any" street legal tires.


:confused:

That is the same thing that happened to me. The one time I ahd the symptom, my first reaction was, "What crappy tires". I put on T1-S and they are great tires.

In all fairness, soem people ahve reproted the rpoblem with other tires. Has anyone had the problem with the Proxxes?

TTT

No new developments here?

I also wanted to bump this due to seeing a breand new thread jsut started concerning this problem again. Might as well keep it all one one spot.

<here's my post that I started a thread with last night, unable to find this one. I'll just add it here.>

Where does everyone currently stand with the issue, SOA, and the NHTSA?

-----------------

My car is a stock '02 WRX sedan, 5 speed, mid-summer '01 build:

On June 30th, 2002 I was traveling down a straight and dry, paved county road going approximately 50 mph, headed in a straight line. The car is stock and the tires are stock Bridgestone Potenza RE92s with approximately 75% tread remaining, and are inflated to the pressures recommended on the door jamb. I applied the brakes firmly to turn onto a side street and crossed a bump in the asphalt while braking. The ABS brakes engaged…a rear tire squealed….the tail of the car began to drift towards the center of the road (keeping in mind the road is flat and straight)…..the ABS continued to modulate even though the bump was long since past and the pavement was now free of imperfections….the car was still not slowing noticeably, and I had been on the brakes a long time with the ABS continuing to modulate. In a last-ditch effort to stop in time, I had to remove my foot from the brake pedal and reapply the brakes, at which time I got full braking power and stopped the car abruptly. This is obviously counter-intuitive to ABS operation.

A knowledgeable friend of mine had nearly the same situation happen to him last week in an identical car, and he feels that the problem is not a mechanical failure of any sort with the ABS unit or sensors in the car. Rather, he suggested that the problem *could be* a problem with the ABS software itself. To be more specific, a calculation in the ABS software could be less than perfect, resulting in a situation where: the tire that hit the bump has left the pavement for a millisecond and is reading a speed higher than the 3 wheels left on the ground. The ABS unit is confused and thinks that the 3 wheels on the ground are skidding (and that the one in the air has traction since it is going faster), it reduces the braking power to the 3 grounded wheels and gives the braking power to the wheel with the higher speed (the one in the air). This, essentially, leaves the driver with little or no braking power. Upon the airborne wheel returning to pavement and matching speed to the 3 grounded wheels, the ABS unit thinks now that all 4 wheels are skidding and continues to modulate the braking. The driver still has virtually no braking power. Eventually, the ABS unit increases braking pressure and stops the car. The result of this is a stopping distance that is exponentially longer than it needed to be, as the driver had not had normal braking power for quite a distance. This is *possibly* what is happening.

I don’t know the software code that is used in this particular ABS module, and am not saying that my thought of what is happening with the ABS is accurate in this case. It is simply my *best guess* at the root of the problem, based on the information I’ve gathered. I could be dead wrong, but it's a plausible sounding idea.

I have sent an email to SOA containing most of the above information, and will send a physical copy to SOA and my Service Manager tomorrow.

I think we need to start a log of WRX owners who've had this problem, as well as the date they filed a complaint with SOA and the method they used to do so. If anyone knows of a way to do this, I'll start

Name:
Ben MacRae

Date Complaint Filed:
07/01/02

Method Filed:
Letter

If there are enough of us who've had a problem or experienced this problem and we notify Subaru of it, they *will* look (at least internally) at the issue, I am certain.


Ben

Nothing new to report here, it still happens once or twice a month. Had it happen a couple days ago at a stopsign, 20MPH on flaming-hot asphalt on S-03's, the damn thing didn't want to stop in the 40ft I gave it. It's almost a reflex to release and re-apply the brakes now, when I did that it almost put me through the window as it stopped instantly with a chirp. I go through that intersection 3-4 times a day, and this was the first time it's happened there. Nobody seems to give a s**t at Subaru or the NHTSFAASFLKJ or whatever they're called. I've complained, called, reported, posted, and explained it so many times I can probably recite it in my sleep now. Both dealers I've worked with, and SOA have been told, along with the interview the Highway safety people gave me. Unfortunately what I've gathered is, if I can't demonstrate the problem, it doesn't exist as far as they're concerned. I leave the fuse in as a control issue on the public roads, but it comes out for Auto-X and Rally-X. Although I should note that it's NEVER malfunctioned at an Auto-X under very hard use, but it does reduce braking ability noticibly. It only seems to malfunction under mild speeds and braking for me. Subaru had better hope that I never have an accident because of this over-engineered ABS setup of theirs.

Thanks for the update.

FWIW, I just filed a complaint with NHTSA as well. From what I count, there are approx 30 complaints between the 2002 Impreza and WRX categories regarding ABS brake issues. Hopefully we will see some action. :)

Ben

D.B.,
Thanks for the update and your continued efforts. Subaru has been frustrating me too with thier lack or response to this (and other things like not fixing my SUBARU c.f. e-brake handle that came loose because it's a "performance part"...funny how I bought it from my dealer with it on there. sorry, back on topic).
In the upcomming month or so I should have time to take my car to my dealer (I may go to two different ones just for the heck of it) and show them.

Just a quick ? - I know you can call up NHTSA, but is their a way to email or fill out a form online??

If so, could somebody post a link? I looked at http://www.nhtsa.org and couldn't find anything obvious for filing a claim.

Perhaps if we made it easy to do, more people would file claims so this thing MIGHT show up as a blip on the radar.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/ivoq/default.htm

I think this is the right place to fill out a problem report. But I'm under the impression that they're not taking it very seriously when it's posted on the web. This problem STILL isn't listed in their 'reported problems' section even though I KNOW there's been a lot of reports made in this manner. I think a phone call is the only way to rattle their cage enough to get their attention. The internet form seems like a way to let the public vent without bothering them.

Well, I guess I'll do both this afternoon then!

Wow, 8 posts without anybody telling us we're all full of crap, and that we just don't know how to drive. :rolleyes:

FYI, I've just been in a bad mood and I feel like being sarcastic and bitter.

Originally posted by rjpit
I have an 02 wrx, love it, brakes are very sensitive, if you have a manual shift and you want to come to a fast stop you MUST DOWNSHIFT HEAVILY. Read the manual it is a 30 -70 ratio, downshifting is your engine break and a manual shift relies on that for up to 70% of your breaking ability. For automatics this may be different i don't know.. however, I know that I avoid the mushy break syndrome if I put that baby in 2nd or jam it in 1st if it is a panic break cituation.


any opinions would be interesting ;)

thanks
robert
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Since I don't have a WRX yet, obviously I haven't experienced this problem. But the above comment is just ridiculous. There's no way Subaru intended you to have to use engine braking on the 5-speed cars to stop. Downshifting as you slow down is fine if that's the way you like to drive, but it should hardly be a necessity for stopping the car effectively. If that's necessary, then your brakes have a SERIOUS problem and you need to get them fixed!

And be ready to spend a lot of money getting your transmission replaced if you routinely "jam it in 1st if it is a panic brake situation". That's going to destroy your synchros in no time flat and SOA isn't going to cover it since they'll chalk it up to abuse.

On another note, this thread has got me thinking twice about buying a WRX, though. I've experienced the total ABS failure mode once years ago on a GM van, and it's REALLY scary. There's no way a high-performance car like the WRX should have an issue like this. If the Japanese engineers calibrated the system on frozen ponds, then they're idiots. Bumpy roads are a much more realistic test than glass-smooth ice. Looks like if I do get one, the ABS fuse will probably be the first thing to go.

Most people seem to agree that better tires fix the problem.

Originally posted by WashUJon
Most people seem to agree that better tires fix the problem.

I don't. Doesn't matter one bit for me, whether I have on the stockers or the 17" 225 Sumitomo HRTZ-IIs

Other than raising my traction limits, the new tires didn't seem to make any noticible difference in the frequency/duration of the ABS problem. And between the wife and I, we made 11 runs on yesterday's auto-x, and the ABS worked fine under hard use. Only seems to happen when I'm going slow and easy.

I agree with DammitBevis.

I drove 15 laps at speed on Lime Rock race track recently with no abs problems at all. But I have had the abs foot-to-the-floor problems during normal driving around town,

Agreed gents! I've never had an ABS issue on the track, only at low-moderate braking levels.

Again, we are not talking about ABS cutting-in during hard/panic stops. The "problem" occurs during normal/moderate braking over small bumps and pavement irregularities. The oft repeated scenario being that A) The ABS cuts-in unexpectantly, B) All braking stops or is significantly mitigated, C) The brake pedal travels toward the floor and does not respond to increased and constant pressure, D) After a few heart wrenching seconds, the brakes reengage; usually way past the intended stopping point. Remember, this is during a normal stop when none of us were expecting it, hence, "dirty drawers". Many of us, including myself, thought that everyone ranting on this thread just didn't understand the workings and feel of ABS. Hopefully, all the non-believers will never suffer enlightenment. I know I did not enjoy my baptism.

going into a turn on the Brakes, the front right tire went into a
small pothole, and it thunked, i also get that sometimes at low speeds, it feels like it was pulled out of the socket or something
but everything is tight. It also happens once in a while right after
I leave in the morning and drive slow over the first speed bump
it seems to only happen in the morning after its been sitting all night, and only sometimes when it's a certain angle
I can never duplicate it
Actually since the summer started i havent heard it

Originally posted by DammitBevis
Other than raising my traction limits, the new tires didn't seem to make any noticible difference in the frequency/duration of the ABS problem. And between the wife and I, we made 11 runs on yesterday's auto-x, and the ABS worked fine under hard use. Only seems to happen when I'm going slow and easy.

That's the thing about this whole issue that scares me the most. When you're on the racetrack, or autocross course, you're concentrating so hard on the car's performance that you are probably best prepared to deal with an ABS failure. And the system works fine then.

But pulling into a parking lot, or cruising up to a stop light at less than 30 mph is when you're most apt to be distracted or thinking about something else, and it's the worst possible time to have the brakes go away. That's why I'm pretty sure my ABS fuse is going to have a mysterious permanent failure as soon as I get the car. I'd rather give up the "benefits" of ABS, and have conventional brakes that I can rely on, than have a driver's aid that I constantly have to worry about. I've been driving in snow with RWD and FWD cars for 25 years without ABS, so I figure I can handle it in an AWD car as good as the WRX without them as well. Then I can always put the fuse back in if I want to do an ice rally or something like that.

Maybe its a suspension dampening problem that upsets the ABS system; too much rebound on the shocks? <shrug>

I get that reduced braking feel every so often. I guess it's a natural reaction, but I just quickly lift my foot up and re-apply the brakes. Seems kinda obvious to me. I personally hate ABS, becuase for it to work, you have to do a stupid maneuver (ie press hard on the brakes during a skid) and it's so counterintuitive that I almost always modulate my brakes and have very little issues. The ABS is a god-sent in the winter though. And on gravel it saved me once. I'm gonna work on setting up a very discrete ABS switch. In my 28 years of life, I've only skidded my tires about 3 times on dry pavement, so if it's sunny out I'd rather ride without ABS since I'd do a better job anyway.

ABS is like air conditioning. Getting used to relying on either one makes the real world that much harder to deal with when you don't have it. :lol: :lol:

Subaru of America has a fix for this problem. Ask your dealer to install a new hydraulic pump. Mine has worked great ever since I had mine replaced back in March.

BJteel,
I wonder if they have it in their systems that that is the necessary fix though. Otherwise they will probably not want to hear it that we know the answer and "a guy on the board has his fixed and it worked"....

Is there any consensus or idea on whether this affects all MY2002 cars, or just certain build dates? I know I have read that there were several changes made to cars built after 9/01 based on certain issues (can't remember what exactly, but I think I read this on the nhtsa site).

My WRX wagon was mfd. in 12/01 and I haven't yet experienced a single instance of ABS problems / brake loss in 1700 miles with RE92s under any braking situations, from hard to soft (admittedly not a whole lot of experience yet, but I have definitely braked over bumpy surfaces at low to middle speeds on various occasions). Maybe I'm just in the "not yet, but it will happen" category, I dunno. I wonder if there is anything to my hypothesis, especially given bjteel's experience with a new hydraulic pump seeming to solve the problem?

I've got to admit I was somewhat skeptical too at first about buying the car when I started reading about all these ABS posts, but at this point I don't have any regrets!

bjteel;

How did the dealer determine that was the problem in the firstplace? Was it for the ABS "malfunction" you had it in the shop for, or ????

Just wondering how you got 'em to replace the pump.

Ben

He explained it earlier in the thread. (I know it's a huge thread)

hys420,


My car is also a 12/01 build date. It's bone stock with 3000 miles total. I have experienced the problem once at around 1200 miles.

I took it in because I rolled through the stop sign near my house everytime I got off the highway. They found nothing wrong and couldn't repeat the problem.

A few days later I came real close to hitting the car in front of me on a mildly bumpy highway. I called the dealer immediately (very p*ssed) and told them I wanted it fixed immediately.

The part was ordered and the car was fixed....that's all. Contact Webster Groves Subaru in Webster Groves, MO if you would like.

I have 2700 miles or so on mine. I've had the **** scared out of me 3 or 4 times now when braking over a rough surface. I've had it happen when braking fairly hard from a higher speed (say 50+) and also had it happen during normal city driving of around 20-30 under very easy braking. I'll go out and try to replicate it again.

TC

Have had it happen only a few times when I was trying to make it happen (see my post on the previous(s) page) - but last night was a new one.

On my way down a slight (steepish, but VERY long) hill on a two-lane, beat-to-hell PA road, going about 60 mph. (Rte 263 just passed Edison Furlong Road heading towards Jamison, for those in the area...)

At the bottom of the hill, I wanted to make a right turn into a road that is 25 mph (usually with cops.) It's a HARD right, almost 90 degrees, and people were baring down on me from behind, so rather than piss them off by slowing down 1000 feet before the turn, I signaled, and figured I would stop quickly and make my turn.

No dice - I hit the brakes, (as I headed towards the large shoulder of the road where there was a rumble strip and rocks and stuff) ABS kicks in. Cool. Fine with me.

HOWEVER, as I begin making the turn onto the COMPLETELY DRY AND STICKY 25 MPH STREET, the brake pedal goes to the floor, I'm about 25-30mph, and the ABS (since it kicked on) shows NO signs of letting up. Somewhat "expecting" this, and NO traffic around (thank god) I just pressed harder, and the car continued to roll an additional 50-100 feet, ABS fighting me tooth and nail on a road that is free and clear of ANY debris, rocks, loose gravel, glass, Pam cooking spray, etc...

So, just adding another instance to try to piece together this puzzle. I guess I could say I wasn't really scared because now I know when to "look out" for this to occur, but I was also lucky because there wasn't anybody around. If there was somebody crossing the street or on a bike, I would've probably plowed into them.

This thread is going to keep me filing my complaints until it's fixed!!!

CirrusWRX sez...


"This thread is going to keep me filing my complaints until it's fixed!!!"

AMEN to that!

Originally posted by CirrusWRX
HOWEVER, as I begin making the turn onto the COMPLETELY DRY AND STICKY 25 MPH STREET, the brake pedal goes to the floor, I'm about 25-30mph, and the ABS (since it kicked on) shows NO signs of letting up.

Good thing no one was around! Until it is fixed, remember that simply a quick pump of the brakes will bring you back to normal. It resets the ABS's behavior. Standing on a brake pedal that is doing nothing won't help anyone. I hope everyone finds a cure somehow. I bought my car in late november (prolly build date of early november) and my car has never done this other that the ABS being a little too intrusive on bumps. But I think for me it's a tire issue since the brakes are very strong, but the stock tires like to lose traction a lot over bumps. Almost bought a switch yesterday at Autozone to rig up an ABS cutoff. :D

Auto-X'd again Sunday. Was informed that disabling the ABS was illegal in STX, so I kept it on. Course was a sequence of fast slaloms and sweepers followed by 90 degree turns. So there was a LOT of hard ABS use. 8 runs between the wife and I, and about 4 hard braking zones to be taken as late as possible. So that's about 42 extreme braking manuvers, and a few mild yet still ABS inducing ones in-between. No malfunctions noted at all. Does anybody know if the ABS system 'Learns'? I don't seem to recall it ever doing it for a while after an ECU reset. Anyway, just looking for correlations.

Hi DammitBevis,

I don't recall seeing anything in this thread about the ABS problems happening during autoX or any other track events. I drove my WRX about 15 laps at speed on Lime Rock race track without the ABS kicking in.

My recollection is that it happens unexpectedly during normal driving. That's what's so scary about it.

JoeGo

JoeGo,

Yeah, I know, just re-enforcing that very point.

D'oh!

so i have a new theroy ... hypothisis is probblay a better word for it



observation: on hot tarmac and hot tires the proublem is greatly reduced (due to better efficency?).. ran an afternoot test-n-tune auto-x .. brakes were great .. the next moring ran again .. almost went into the dirt

hypothisis:the WRX is a WORLD car ... theroticly produced the same for all countries all of which get the 4pots except the US. the abs logic was designed to work for the 4pot brakes and was unchanged for the 2 pot us model..

question1: are the 4pots more efficent than the 294mm 2 pots?
a1:in a conversations with paul ecklund he said that the 4 pots were dramaticly better

question2: are people with 4pots having the same proublems with the abs?

question3: do GDAs in the rest of the world get 2 pot rears?


fire away!

I was under the impression that the two pots had the same piston surface area as the 4-pots so as not to upset the brake balance (same with the 2 and 1 pots in the rear). That the extra pistons were to equalize the pressure across the entire pad surface, and assist in moving heat away from the pads to reduce fade and irregular pad wear under hard use.

Originally posted by Jaxx
so i have a new theroy ... hypothisis is probblay a better word for it



observation: on hot tarmac and hot tires the proublem is greatly reduced (due to better efficency?).. ran an afternoot test-n-tune auto-x .. brakes were great .. the next moring ran again .. almost went into the dirt

hypothisis:the WRX is a WORLD car ... theroticly produced the same for all countries all of which get the 4pots except the US. the abs logic was designed to work for the 4pot brakes and was unchanged for the 2 pot us model..

question1: are the 4pots more efficent than the 294mm 2 pots?
a1:in a conversations with paul ecklund he said that the 4 pots were dramaticly better

question2: are people with 4pots having the same proublems with the abs?

question3: do GDAs in the rest of the world get 2 pot rears?


fire away!

Well, I didn't have ABS problems even before I put my 4-pots on, so I might be the wrong guy to respond, but no problems for me. In my experience, the 4-pots are more efficient. Do they stop the car shorter? Dunno. But the feel is wonderful, but duh...2-piston caliper with a slider, vs. 4-piston caliper with equalized pad pressure and all that jazz.

Kevin

I may have stumbled upon a way to reproduce this issue. However it's not very "Dealer Friendly". It happened once before and I didn't think much of it, but this past weekend at an Auto-X it got away from me in 5-cone slalom at about 60-ish MPH. During the spin I nailed the brakes and waited for the ride to stop. After the car stopped spinning, and was back to 100% traction, it continued to roll even though my foot was planted firmly on the pedal. I THINK this happened once before, but the Adrenalin is pumping pretty hard when this stuff happens, and I had my mind on other things.

Do any of you read the previous posts?
I had this problem.
The dealer fixed it.
Problem solved.

If you want to know how, simply look up this page and maybe even some of my earlier posts (part number included).

bjteel,

Yes, must have read the entire thread front to back about 10 times in fact. That's great that yours is fixed, however knowing what's wrong, and even having the P# to fix it, isn't doing me any good because the 2 dealers within 2 hours of me don't believe that I have a problem. They simply refuse do do anything more until they can reproduce it. So, my problem will continue until I am able to reproduce it, not until I know what part to replace. Unless you can point me to a dealer that will fix it with no questions asked. I will take it to Webster Groves if you feel they'll take my word for it, but I already spoke with them on the phone and they took the same stance as Lou Fusz, and Auffenberg.

Well, I guess try calling Webster Groves and see what they say over the phone. Talk to Neil Sanders in service (he said his Legacy did the same thing).

<snipped from my 2nd letter to SOA, which they have not replied to yet>


Customer states: “At times when driving if you are slowing with the brakes and hit a bump the ABS will engage and will stay engaged and car is very difficult to stop is like there are no brakes”

Service Dept Response (based on what SOA told the dealer): “Roadtested vehicle—No abnormal ABS operation displayed customers description of operation is normal, when hitting bump with brake applied ABS will engage as tire speed variation is detected, MUST LET OFF BRAKE AND REAPPLY TO SHUT OFF ABS—AS DESIGNED”

I quote from page 7-23 of my owner’s manual for 2002 Impreza models (MSA5M0203A):

“When you feel the ABS system operating, you should maintain constant brake pedal pressure. Do not pump the brake pedal since doing so may defeat the operation of the ABS system”

-----------

I believe they just contradicted themselves;).......until they can duplicate it, or admit that such a situation would be a problem, the dealer is not going to replace any parts on my car either.

Ben

wow man, sounds like you just won yourself a court case if you wreck your car. Take 'em to the bank!

*sigh* well, it's good to see this thread still moving right along. Oh, and of course you all heard the recent TSB on the FRIGGIN BOOST GAUGE LIGHT NOT LIGHTING UP ENOUGH.

Sorry, it just makes me mad that they offer a TSB for something like a lightbulb that isn't bright enough, but they refuse to look at the ABS issue :mad:

I guess we can just keep submitting our complaints and hope that SOMEDAY they bring this issue to light.

"Must let off brake and reapply to shut off abs- as design MY FRIGGIN A HOLE!!!!"

again, my apologees, but that post just got me steamed!!!

bjteel,


Did you contact SOA about how your problem was fixed? It seems that SOA still seems to think it's a software design issue, but you still contend to this day that replacing the pump fixed everything. If they are not aware, we may never get a resolution.

BTW, It finally happened to me. Coming off an exit ramp that I was unfamiliar with, there was a really rough section that I had to brake over and a blind turn right after. I had to pump the brakes 4 times to stop the car. Stock tires and wheels. My heart was pumping so much becuase I almost plowed into an Explorer. It was like with each pump, although the tires never really skidded, it felt like they were. I had total control of the car except that I had little braking power. I am already working on making an ABS switch becuase this is not safe. If there weren't ABS, as soon as my ears heard the skidding over the bumps, I would have been able to slow that car much sooner. This ABS feels like drive-by-wire brakes gone awry. :mad:

ScrappyWRX,

Yep you have SOA by the proverbial balls. How many times have we all seen that Motorweek filler regarding what to do when the ABS engages, ya know when the commentator says during the voice over while a dude is steering around the ball some kid kicked into the street, "....push (brake pedal), hold (brake pedal), and steer".

If the dealer is stating that you must "lift your foot off the brake pedal and reapply as designed", they are idiots, flat wrong, and opening themselves up to a can of legal whoopass.

Luckily, my dealer respected my description of the problem, and even had a service-department wide meeting regarding the erratic ABS engagement and a viable fix. The diagnosis code that they pulled definitely supported my claim. Like bjteel, they replaced my hydraulics, and so far so good.

I really hope that SOA does the right thing and admonishes the dealer, and does right by you. Otherwise, you have pretty damning evidence that the NHSTA would be very interested in.

Good Luck,

Martin

How can I contact SOA. I need to get in touch with them, but for a different problem?

Ray

This thread needs a bump!

I'm happy to comply!;)

I have had serious trouble with the ABS on my WRX twice now as described in the thread I started recently in the "Suspension, Brakes, Rims and Tires" forum titled:

"WRX Brake Pedal Goes To Floor Intermittantly".

Luckily, CirrusWRX directed me over here. I'm going to try and finish reading the rest of this thread (I'm only on page 6) and also contact SOA and the NHTSA.

I read the first 7 pages or so, and the last 5.

I am very interested in the possibility of getting the hydraulic pump replaced. Is there a way to test it? I'm hoping for some conclusive evidence so that:

1) The dealer won't blow me off, and
2) The problem will definitely get fixed

To answer several different posts regarding aftermarket tires/brakes: I've had this problem twice--once with Bridgestone RE730's and stock brakes and last week with Firestone SZ-50EP's and Hawk HP Plus pads. Both times were similar--abrupt braking on _smooth_ dry pavement. In both cases there was no reason for the ABS to activate more than minimally and briefly. Instead, the pedal went to the floor both times and I had _severely_ reduced braking force. It felt as if the ABS was working on black ice. Luckily, I avoided hitting the vehicles that had cut me off abruptly without signalling, but I may not be so lucky next time.

Not to beat a dead horse but for those of you who skipped to the end of the thread, what I (and others) am describing is NOT normal ABS operation. It is activating when it should not. Much more serious than that--it reduces the braking force significantly. I have had to apply the brakes in an emergency on a dry Interstate a couple times in the past in other vehicles with ABS. They responded nothing like this. Instead the pedal stayed firm but vibrated and the decelleration rate stayed about the same.

I have 30,000 miles on my WRX and the ABS has only acted up twice. The other times it has activated were on snow or rough pavement and it was fine.

Unless I missed something (which is very possible) there is still no definitive fix for this problem. I understand the nature of large corporations is to delay and deny, but in this case we are dealing with people's safety. This is a serious problem and if it isn't dealt with quickly it could very likely turn into a nightmare for Subaru.

I had it happen one time. The pedal did not go to the floor.

I pulled the ABS fuse. I got into an accordian situation becuase a truck in front of me was 10' behind the car in front of him. I flat-spotted my beloved Toyo T1-S, but I didn't bend ay sheet metal.

Car and driver did some testing with alternate brakes ont he WRX. They found that witht he stock pads, no ABX stopped about 10% shorter than with the ABS. The same was not true with other pads.

Keep in mind that nobody claims ABS stop you faster, only that you'll be able to turn while braking heavy. Personally, I think ABS is hyped to the point that everyone thinks it's more than it is, including insurance companies.

Originally posted by mtb_dude
Keep in mind that nobody claims ABS stop you faster, only that you'll be able to turn while braking heavy. Personally, I think ABS is hyped to the point that everyone thinks it's more than it is, including insurance companies.

really?

I could have sworn I read here that the vast majority of cases on good roads ABS stops you faster as well as with more control.

I thought it was only gravel, snow and ice where the ABS actually increases stopping distance.

I've disabled mine and I practice threshold panic stopping routinely.

On a smooth road, yeah it probably will. But no company will guarantee it, that's for sure. That being said, I've experinced the 'holy-shnikes!' braking of the WRX on a bumpy exit ramp with a blind turn. (I think the only one more nervous than me was the guy sitting at a stop sign on the other side of said turn.) I pumped the brakes like four times just to stop the car. I don't remeber the pedal dropping to the floor, but it wasn't exactly firm either. If i have to do that to stop with ABS, the what the heck do I need it for?!?

It's really geometry and not a design flaw. When you hit a set of bumbs the tire speeds relative to each other go wacky and the system has no way of truly knowing whether it's a skid or a bump. Also, in my case, I'm sure the tires would have locked up but I think I would have done a much better job at stopping being that either way I had to be a very active participant.
:)

ABS was developed for the aircraft industry when planes got big and the tires would blow or flat-spot even on normal landings/brakings.

The racers found the same things--ABS keeps you from flat-spotting tires. The insurance industry found that ABS helps maintain directional control in the wet. ABS in normal cars is a substitute for training and paying attention.

Unless you are stopping from high speed and you get 'reverted rubber' built up under the tires(and I'm not sure that even happens in cars--it happens on damp runways, though) , the action of anti-locking increases your stopping distance on dry pavement.

I really want an ABS "off" switch in my cars.TC

P.S.--For those hoping litigation will pay off, we still have high explosive devices aimes squarely at our faces and chests--airbags. Proven killers, the insurance industry prevailed.

Originally posted by rally_wannabe


really?

I could have sworn I read here that the vast majority of cases on good roads ABS stops you faster as well as with more control.

I thought it was only gravel, snow and ice where the ABS actually increases stopping distance.

I've disabled mine and I practice threshold panic stopping routinely.

Most of that isn't right. On dry roads, threshhold braking will always result in the shortest stopping distances. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of skill and practice to stay right on the threshhold of lockup.

ABS will never stop you shorter than a highly skilled driver could, except maybe on glare ice. The only advantage it has is that it's virtually idiot-proof. Just panic and stand on the brake pedal and the car will (hopefully) save your butt.

The problem with the WRX seems to be that the ABS computer gets all confused if a wheel hits a bump and goes airborne for even an instant. Of course the tire will stop spinning while it's in the air because it takes very little force to stop a wheel that's not carrying any weight. The computer detects that as a lockup and lets off the brake pressure. But apparently it doesn't react very quickly once the tire touches down again and starts rolling. It just keeps the brake pressure really low and you roll WAY past your expected stopping point. It's not much of a safety feature if it only works on ice and snow and not on rough bumpy dry roads.

I'm picking up my 03 WRX tomorrow, and I know the brakes are the first thing I'll be keeping an eye on. At the first sign of any odd ABS behavior, that fuse is going to magically malfunction. I'd rather rely on my reactions with non-ABS brakes that actually work than a computer with major bugs.

Like ChuckH mentions above, ABS is idiot-proof...
Consider this also; when ETCC (european touring car championship) teams were looking into ABS in the early nineties most drivers were sceptical, but after cars using it were faster around the track everyone adopted it. (I think they have banned it since then, probably because it made it too easy for the drivers?!) Now, our ABS systems aren't nearly as good, but in most cases they will probably prevail. I have experienced the floaty feeling of the WRX ABS enganging over bumps and have often contemplated pulling the fuse, but for safetys sake (insurance etc.) I'll probably keep it in unless I do a track day or autoX.

just my $.02

-anders

I just bled the brakes in my WRX and found a lot of air in the lines. Until now, the brakes have never been touched. This begs the question: Were the brakes bled properly at the factory? How else would large amounts of air get in the system?

I'm hoping that this was the cause of the brake pedal going to the floor intermittantly when the ABS activated. Of course, since this problem next to impossible to recreate at will I can't be sure.

Has anyone else found air in their brake system when bleeding it for the first time?

I think it would be useful to know if _air_ in the system is causing most or all of these problems. Since I bled mine, I have tried to recreate the problem. Everything seems fine and the ABS is less sensitive.

I'm thinking about buying a WRX and in my research came across this problem with the ABS. Thanks to all of you who filed complaints at NHSTA. That's how I found out that there is a problem. Does anyone know if this is still a problem in the 2003 WRX?:)

i'm just picked up my 2003 wrx, so i'll have to test this phenomenon right away. don't want to wrap the new scoobie around anything just yet!

boy this seems to be a questionable topic, i'm an engineer for freightliner. as an interesting tid bit, when we set up our all wheel drive military vehicle, we also tweaked it such that when the tractor was in 6X6 mode, the abs would be turned off to help prevent the driver loosing control of the vehicle in sever braking applications. i get the impressing that abs isn't ideal in most slippery off road conditions. in this case, the vehicle would be traveling down loose dirt roads as well as extreme muddy conditions as a worse case situation.

The ABS on the WRX is overactive, and does incearse my stopping distances. It turns on constantly where my old Jetta, current Passat, and 4 other cars I occasionally drive never do.
it has always been overactive, but this week it is really bad. i had to drive on the doughnut spare for 100 miles due to roadhazard. when I got the full size tire back on the car it started kicking in upon moderate braking on flat, dry pavement. the ABS light is not on, but SOMETHING IS DEFINATELY WRONG. Should i disconnect ABS until the Subaru service dept can look at it? I am not a worrysome person, but I have a lot of anxiety about not being able to stop the car right now. I am going to borrow an OBD II reader tonight, but since the ABS light has not come on I dont expect any fault Codes
Maybe the problem is mechanical???
Any thoughts??:confused:

yO i just wanted to say that it's really kewl to be in touch with an awsome group of people that want to work together for a common goal...

jeffery

Have you bled your brakes and checked for air in the system?

Mine seemed to have air in it from the factory.

I have to say after running almost the entire summer on aftermarket tires, I can say that the ABS likes them soooo much better. I just think the tires we have are just really bad.

Just put my stock wheels/tire back on. Brakes sucked just as bad with the summer combo as with the stockers. The problem is not rooted in the tires.

Originally posted by ezatnova
Just put my stock wheels/tire back on. Brakes sucked just as bad with the summer combo as with the stockers. The problem is not rooted in the tires.

I pulled my ABS fuse and rebedded the brakes. I ahve been running without the ABS for the better part of a year. With Toyo Proxes TI-S, 225-50/16 on the stock rims, the brakes are really good. When i put the ABS in for a short time, the brakes really sucked - they took about 20% longer to stop.

I did flat spot my tires in a panic stop, but tires are cheaper than sheet metal and insurance, not to mention hospitals.

I was able to have the tires shaved at a race tire shop so I only lsot a few thousand miles.

The ABS on this car is not liek the ABS on my (sadly) departed RX-7 Twin Turbo. You could threshold brake that car jsut above the point of ABS engagement time after time.

I've had to have my ABS off too for almost a year. It's much to dangerous with it on. It worries me in the rain though. It seems to lock them up very easily in the wet, and I'd rather have functional ABS to allow me to steer in those cases.
Why oh why can't Subaru fix this?
:mad:

ttmft.

any updates?

The 2004 WRX adns STI have different braking systems.

I also had brakes that grabbed easily. Then I went through the bedding in process again and they have been really great. Car and Driver tried different brake sistem on their WRX. Without the ABS, the WRX stops about 10% quicker than with them.

If you still have the OEM Bridgestones, get rid of them. They stink on the WRX.

FWIW, I sort of realize a bit more why there are so many skeptics out there. I moved and now commute on roads that are about 75% less infected with potholes and whatnot, and for the heck of it, I put the fuse back in. Since there are many less instances that jar the wheels under breaking, I almost never have the abs make me poo my pants anymore. I imagine the condition of the roads I travel now are more common, and the awful roads I had so many scary experiences on were more of the exception.

superspd8: I also read the Car&Driver article you refered to. I don't have it in front of me, but I don't remember that the WRX stopped shorter _without_ ABS. Are you sure they said that?

Every braking test I've ever read shows the vehicle stopping shorter _with_ ABS. However, most (but not all) of these comparisons were done on _wet_ pavement.

The only situation where I've heard you are often better off without ABS is off-road, where it helps to have the tires slide and build up a little mound of dirt/gravel in front of them.

BTW: I bought the Hawk HP Plus pads for my WRX as a result of C&D's testing and I've been very happy with them. They are dusty and they squeel just a little once in a while, but they stop strong and smooth with noticeably less fade.

Also, I've posted this before but when I did the pad installation I bled the brakes. When bleeding the front right I noticed a _lot_ of air in the clear bleeder tube. I was keeping an eye on the master cylinder reservoir and it was not low (not sucking air). The brakes had never been bled so the only conclusion I could come to is that they were not bled properly at the factory. Since then, I have had _no_ problems whatsoever. Contrary to ezatnova's situation, I am travelling the exact same roads and if anything they are rougher than before. I have _tried_ to recreate the problem but cannot. It seems that bleeding the brakes solved it.

Originally posted by superspd8
The 2004 WRX adns STI have different braking systems.


Only half true. The STi has a different system. The WRX just had a new flashy name for the same system. :)

The WRX just had a new flashy name for the same system.

The 2004 actually has an upgraded braking system. It has EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) which adjusts the front to rear braking bias depending on road conditions.

Originally posted by sajohnson
superspd8: I also read the Car&Driver article you refered to. I don't have it in front of me, but I don't remember that the WRX stopped shorter _without_ ABS. Are you sure they said that?

Every braking test I've ever read shows the vehicle stopping shorter _with_ ABS. However, most (but not all) of these comparisons were done on _wet_ pavement.

The only situation where I've heard you are often better off without ABS is off-road, where it helps to have the tires slide and build up a little mound of dirt/gravel in front of them.

BTW: I bought the Hawk HP Plus pads for my WRX as a result of C&D's testing and I've been very happy with them. They are dusty and they squeel just a little once in a while, but they stop strong and smooth with noticeably less fade.

Also, I've posted this before but when I did the pad installation I bled the brakes. When bleeding the front right I noticed a _lot_ of air in the clear bleeder tube. I was keeping an eye on the master cylinder reservoir and it was not low (not sucking air). The brakes had never been bled so the only conclusion I could come to is that they were not bled properly at the factory. Since then, I have had _no_ problems whatsoever. Contrary to ezatnova's situation, I am travelling the exact same roads and if anything they are rougher than before. I have _tried_ to recreate the problem but cannot. It seems that bleeding the brakes solved it.

Yes, I am sure about the Car & Driver article. However, the article on the website does not have the table. It does say that the brakes are better without the ABS.


Car & Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2002/september/200209_feature_braketest.xml?keywords=brakes) <--- link to C&D article

ABS does not decrease stopping distances - it allows you to steer without locking up. The shortest braking you can get is just prior to lockup (ABS engagement). On my sorely missed 1993 RX-7 Twin turbo, it was best to hold the brakes just above invoking ABS. On the Subaru it was much harder.

I put my ABS fuse back in for about 1000 miels. The brakes lost sensitivity and the abs was invoked very easily. with the ABS fuse pulled, the brakes are pretty godo for the street. (I would not take it on a track wth the stock brakes).

superspd8:
I know you are not alone in thinking that you are better off w/o ABS. There are situations where that is true. But _most_ people, _most_ of the time are better off with anti-lock brakes.

I was ready to pull my ABS fuse also, until I found air in the system. Now, I am satisfied with the operation of the ABS and I'm glad I have it.

I understand the physics behind ABS. In fact, I work for the DC subway (Metro) and we have a similar system on the trains called a 'slip-slide' circuit. Apparently, trains also stop shorter when the wheels have about 20% slip (and preventing wheel lock reduces 'flat spots' on the wheels). This circuit produces the equivalent of threshhold braking. Of course, all the train has to do is stop! It doesn't have to swerve. I think even our friends at Car&Driver would agree they'd rather have ABS, even on a track. The fact is, no human can do what ABS does -- at least if the ABS is properly calibrated. If all you need to do is stop in a straight line, on a smooth dry road, _maybe_ you could match or slightly beat the ABS distance. But on a rough or slipery surface, especially when you have steer, forget it!

I don't see how ABS would reduce the sensitivity of the brakes. Unless it is active it should be transparent.

If your ABS is kicking in prematurely I would have it checked. Mine seems to function just like the other ABS systems I have experienced.

When bleeding the WRX brakes, it's easiy to get just enough suction from siphon action in the clear tubing to pull air around the threads of the bleeder screw. This results in lots of bubbles in the clear tubing. I doubt any of this air gets back into the brake system, but it makes it look like you've got tons of small bubbles coming out of the brake system.

With that said, I also noticed a significant improvement after bleeding the system and putting in Valvoline DOT 4 fluid. I haven't had the ABS kick in on the usual places in the road since I did this.

-JL

edit:
For clarification, I am referring to gravity bleeding of the system.

I have not had experience with Subaru's EBD, but having seen it on a couple of different Ford vehicles, I can say that calling EBD an upgrade is a bit of a stretch. IMO, the car manufacturers decided that they could save a few bucks by eliminating the proportioning valve and adding a couple of lines of code into the ABS programming.

EBD has been pretty poorly implemented in most of the vehicles I have seen. It gives full pressure (ie same as the fronts are getting) to the rear brakes unless the rear ABS activates. Then it dumps a bunch of pressure from the rears and keeps it low for a while. It then gives pressure back in discrete steps VERY VERY slowly until the ABS activates again or you release the brakes. The logic for giving back the pressure seems very suspect. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. This can result in significantly different stopping distances for the same conditions. During normal driving with EBD the rear pads end up doing more work than they were originally designed for. Expect the rear pads to wear out much more quickly, while the front pads last slightly longer.

EBD should also make it more difficult to disable the ABS on these vehicles. You won't be able to just pull the fuse anymore. When the ABS is disabled (or heaven forbid it fails), there will be no proportioning, so the rear brakes will see the same pressure as the fronts. This will result in rear wheel lockup at relatively low decelerations.

EBD could obviously be implemented better and truly be an upgrade with the proper sensors and coding. I just haven't seen that to be the case yet.

Zak

Originally posted by SC_Compact


The 2004 actually has an upgraded braking system. It has EBD (Electronic Brake Distribution) which adjusts the front to rear braking bias depending on road conditions.

jlevy makes a good point about air leaking in between the bleeder threads.

In my case, it was a _lot_ of air -- a solid bubble maybe 4" long inside the tubing. I've bled a few different brake systems, and I'm used to seeing a little air, but this was exessive.

Since bleeding the system and installing DOT4 fluid, I have had no further problems. The ABS works like it should.

I've given up trying to convince my dealer that there is a problem with the ABS system in my '02 WRX. Unfortunately, I have accepted the fact that the ABS system takes far too long to re-stabilize modulation after encountering a bumpy surface.

However, I must share some "insider" information a Subaru regional manager reluctantly shared with me. After countless complaints, Subaru arranged for me to have a test drive with a RM to try to recreate the brake failure. He asked me if I had ever had the space-saver (spare tire) on for an extended period of time. I said "no" but decided to press him for why he had asked the question. This is what he had to say:

There is a problem with the ABS if you drive on the space-saver for a moderate period of time. The system "learns" that one wheel spins faster than the others. This in itself is not a problem *until* you put the regular tire back on! Since the wheel is now spinning slower, the ABS thinks the wheel is slipping and modulates all four wheels.

According to him, "if you ever have to use the space-saver, drive directly to the nearest Subaru service center and have them take care of it." I don't know why he was so secretive about this information but he assured me it had nothing to do with the problem I was describing.

Any thoughts?

I would be very surprised if that is a problem.

The spare should be the same diameter as the stock tires if for no other reason than the viscous coupling in the rear diff. Having different sized tires on the rear would cause the VC to overheat and be damaged after a few miles.

As for the RM's description of the ABS problem, that is suspect. At most, _if_ the spare is smaller, when the brakes are applied it might cause the ABS to modulate the other 3 (slower turning) tires. But when the original tire is replaced everything should go back to normal. I haven't heard anything about the ABS "learning".

Strange. Anyone else?

I was driving to work today and happened to be braking while my tires were rolling over a small pothole. The ABS kicked in although the braking force was moderate.

In this instance, the ABS worked as designed (the pedal did not drop to the floor) but in any other vehicle it would not have kicked in to begin with.

My prob with the abs: Mostly happens when in third gear, hard stop and hit a bump, a manhole works like a wonder. So, braking hard, abs kick in, then bump, I press harder but I see no braking at all. Car can slide thorugh the red light as if I wasnt breaking though im pressing the pedal as i was to hit a wall. I have to disengage the brakes and re-engage so I get braking back again and dont get a ticket for going through the red light. Aftershock: after the abs problem car wont boost as normal, feels like if there isnt any turbo installed. I have re-created the abs/boost problem various times, but none for the dealer. I had the 3/16 mod instaled. Only way to get the turbo to work as it should is an ECU reset. Which is a pain after the car already learned its way into a good map.


Im now compleatly stock, but havent gotten the abs prob since I already know when its going to happen and dont want to reset the ECU.

Originally posted by sajohnson
. . . but in any other vehicle it would not have kicked in to begin with.

Dude, every car with ABS in it does that. Ask any person who has a car with ABS. Older version didn't do it, but they also rarely worked in a real situation. :eek:


Then vaporeon said
Mostly happens when in third gear, hard stop and hit a bump, a manhole works like a wonder. So, braking hard, abs kick in, then bump, I press harder but I see no braking at all. Car can slide thorugh the red light as if I wasnt breaking though im pressing the pedal as i was to hit a wall.

Maybe you should slow down more when coming to red lights. Sounds like your stopping at a red light late enough that you require total traction to stop in time. You shouldn't rely on ABS to stop you any better than if you didn't have it. Just know that you can turn while braking, and the rear won't swing out. ABS has never been anything more than that.

Maybe you should slow down more when coming to red lights. Sounds like your stopping at a red light late enough that you require total traction to stop in time. You shouldn't rely on ABS to stop you any better than if you didn't have it. Just know that you can turn while braking, and the rear won't swing out. ABS has never been anything more than that.

Well, it wasnt really me braking ona red light, it was a green that suddently changed, so, hard break. Now, imagine that same situation on an accident, cars in front suddently stop, I hard brake, hit bump, no more brakes = possible casualty in the accident. Im aware of that problem now, so I react by letting go of the brakes and re engaging them hard again.

Originally posted by mtb_dude
every car with ABS in it does that.

does every car do that braking on perfectly clean, dry, new condition asphalt when you hit 4 or 5 pebbles?

because you've never been to the moon does that mean it doesn't exist?

open your mind man there is TONS of evidence of a problem just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not there.

if you don't have anything helpful to say then just shut yer freaking mouth.

under moderate to hard braking...hit a small pothole and BANG pedal went right to the floor. It's an 03 WRX wagon w/ 2500mi. The size of this thread scares the HELL out of me...It seems like this is serious. I've owned three other cars w/ABS and never experienced anything like this before...I know this sounds just like everyone elses problem but what if anything is being done? Should I bleed my brakes? disconnect my ABS?:eek:

take it to the dealer and have them read your error codes.

BTW, if the do find the error and fix it please document it for the rest of us.

Originally posted by rally_wannabe

if you don't have anything helpful to say then just shut yer freaking mouth.

Well since you're being combative and generally speaking nonesense, here's the list of cars from friends I know who have the same issues as us.


Blazer '01
Audi A4 '00
Navigator (not sure but around an '00)
Pontiac (everyone especially the Grand Ams)
Ford Taurus

Shall I go on? I can think of a few more. If you brake hard over uneven ground without ABS, you'll skid. You're complaining becuase you're losing braking, but the alternative is to skid and spin. Maybe you're looking for the magic braking system that is impervious to any road condition. It's called FANTASY. :disco:

so you are saying in ALL those cases the pedal went to the floor and braking ceased until the brake was released and reapplied?

I think you should have read this entire thread before commenting because your point has been covered thoroughly and you don't know what you're talking about (the actual fault in question.)

is your head SUPPOSED to snap back against the Head Rest when ABS is triggered?

Originally posted by mtb_dude


Maybe you're looking for the magic braking system that is impervious to any road condition. It's called FANTASY. :disco:

NOPE, it's called QUALITY. My $19,000 Saturn had flawless ABS (saved me on bumps from going through a light...I'd have crashed in the WRX guaranteed).

I currently drive a supercharged 1995 BMW 318ti. I only had the ABS kick in once in the 110,000 miles I have put on the car and that was in a panic stop. On the other hand I had a 1997 Mercedes Benz C Class (company car) and the ABS would kick in on sandy/bumpy roads where the BMW never would.

However, the pedal going to the floor sure sounds scary to me.

I am most probably going to end up with a WRX wagon however I am quite concerned with the Transmission issues and the below par braking of the WRX.

I think Subaru may have skimped on quality in a few places they shouldn't have (tranny/brakes).

Maybe they need to go back and get a Gertrag trans, Brembo Brakes and Bosch ABS????

60-0 138feet ?????

Hitting a patch of bumpy dirt road going 65, my ABS kicked in, but the pedal didn't drop in the least bit.. I have an '03 wrx if it matters. But I've NEVER experienced this problem and have had ABS go off a few times.

I don't understand why some people claim that the WRX anti-lock braking system is flawed. I have had my WRX for 1000 miles and have never experienced a SINGLE problem. What is wrong with you people? I have driven many other vehicles with ABS and believe this to be the most responsive ABS system EVER. It's perfect, so your system must also be perfect. I believe that when people pass me and blow their horns at me, some people even show me that I'm number one, that they are just admiring the car. Obviously I live in a fantasy world, or may be a Subaru employee.

Seriously, the ABS system is overly sensitive and recovers very slowly(possibly to it being overly sensitive). I have followed this forum since the beginning and have come to the conclusion that this effects many peoplem(myself included). If you don't think that this type of problem is possible, you are naive.:eek:

Not all ABS systems are created equeal, this ABS system may not work as well as others. Some systems that I have driven totally stink (grand am) and others (Ford Explorer) are exceptional at reacting to wheel lockup. Most people don't have a clue how to threshold brake much less trail brake, and make very poor judges as to how the WRX system reacts. If you feel that the system on your car is great, terrific but don't condem those who feel differently.:)

Originally posted by rally_wannabe

I think you should have read this entire thread before commenting because your point has been covered thoroughly and you don't know what you're talking about (the actual fault in question.)


Then make sure you read the entire thread also (and see my numerous posts in it as well), because the main problem people have been having was solved on page 3. Some cars had a faulty pnematic pump on the ABS. He changed it and he didn't have anymore problems, covered by warranty. :)
The pedal drops to the floor and the braking power disappears momentarily. If you're pedal doesn't drop to the floor, you don't have a problem, at least with your car, but maybe you have a problem driving with discretion.

Originally posted by mtb_dude
Dude, every car with ABS in it does that.


there is no problem

Originally posted by mtb_dude
main problem people have been having

there IS a problem.

so, uh, which one is it again?

you're being an ass and contributing nothing.

thanks very much.

BTW, you have to risk your fukin life to reproduce the problem or the dealers say there is nothing wrong.

Out the 10s of people that posted here what TWO?!?!? have had it fixed?

problem NOT SOLVED dikhead.

Yo! Calm down dude. People get two weeks for stuff like that. You were complaining that your ABS activates over bumps, which is normal. Nowhere did you mention "When I brake over an uneven surface, the pedal drops to the floor and I get NO braking until I re-pump the brakes. As for your attitude. Sheeesh, whatever happened to peace lovin' hippie subaru owners? You're more like Bulls on Parade swine. Have a nice life dude, I'll make sure to never talk to you again! :rolleyes: :disco: :disco: :disco:

ok.

After going back and reviewing all of your posts on this thread I feel that I may have been a little out of line.

I apologise.

I'll try not to be such a dikhead in the future.

:o

:)

Can't we all just get along :lol: seriously though I think that we ARE all concerned when we hear so many stories about the pedal hitting the floor...this is not normal or in any way acceptable. I was talking w/ a friend of my wifes last night and she ask me how I liked my new WRX (she's got one too, a 2002 sedan) I told her that I loved it but was a little concerned about the brakes...before I could say anything else she blurted out "does the pedal sometimes go to the floor when you are braking over bumps or railroad tracks?" to wit I said "well, yes". Now she's never heard of NASIOC or I-CLUB or any other such Subaru oriented website. So this is DEFINATELY happening to alot of us out there...it's not some kind of "witch hunt hysteria". Do we all need to go to the dealerships w/ this to be documented? Do we need disconnect the ABS? I've read about 80% of this thread so far (it reads like "War and Peace") so I know about bleeeding the lines and replacing the fluid, is there anything else? I've got a brand new baby coming in a couple of weeks and I don't want to be driving a car with questioable brakes.

if it happened to you and you are lucky you will have ABS error codes that can be read by the dealer (or anyone with the machine, I gather).

some people have had their hydraulic pump replaced after taking it to the dealer and having them check these codes, they say it fixed it.

others get the all to familiar "cannot reproduce problem".:disco:

I had this problem. I took it to the dealer and they diagnosed it as a "dirty sensor." They were able to reproduce it and after cleaning and calibrating all the sensors they were unable to reproduce it again.

Some cars had a faulty pnematic pump on the ABS. He changed it and he didn't have anymore problems, covered by warranty.
I've had it happen twice on my car, both last winter. Since this is so infrequent in my driving, is there a good way to test the pneumatic pump w/o having to find a stretch of road to replicate the problem?

Well I had the mild version of this happen twice so far. Brakes didn't work on bumps, but pedal didn't go to the floor. Once it was soft and went down a few inches. I'm glad I found this thread a year ago, even before I bought my OBS. I drive around wary of rough road surfaces. Knowing the potential problem it was really easy to just release the brakes and try again.

I worry about my wife occaisionally driving it though.

Jim

This is a very serious safety-related problem and typically the dealer cannot be expected to recreate it on a test drive.

The only way this will be corrected is if enough people report their brake problems to the NHTSA.

Go HERE: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

FWIW: In my experience, this is a _very_ intermittent problem, but usually occurs at a very bad time.:eek: I know some have said they can reproduce it at will, but I've never been able to.

As I posted above, after bleeding my brakes (and finding a significant amount of air in the system) I have not had the brakes fail. The ABS does activate sometimes over bumps, but seems to work normally (pedal still firm, only slight loss of braking power).

Those of you who have cars with brakes that consistently fail on rough surfaces should be the most helpful in getting this problem fixed. PLEASE contact the NHTSA. Help yourself and others.

I am so glad I found this thread. I have the same problem just happened to me last week I am a youing driver but not a crappy one. I ahve been in a terrible accident and learned. I was stopping coming over a railroad track. I didn't think anything of the track until I read this thread. I almost hit 3 dam cars. I went into the other lane through the ligth and right into the next lane across from the light. When i think abot it the brakes kicked back in the next time I braked.(I had to release when I jumped over into the next lanes of traffic) I was ready to buy better brakes. But I think I'll talk to the dealership. Do you think they will have any problem with the fact that I have upgraded brakes? Slotted and mintex pads.

-Paul

Paul: If all you've done is change pads and rotors there is no reason for them to give you a hard time. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the burden of proof is on the _dealer_ when it comes to warranty disputes. They must show that your mods were reponsible for for the failure/problem/defect.

In this case, you have plenty of company. I don't think anyone is saying that aftermarket pads and/or rotors are causing this problem. In fact, it is illegal for an auto mfr. to _require_ you to purchase their parts in order to keep your warranty valid. As long as what you use is comparable to (or better than) OEM parts you are covered.

Your main problem may be reproducing the brake failure for the service tech. Even if you can, and I know some people have, is there a known fix?

I just went to the NHTSA site out of curiousity -- I hadn't checked it since I filed my complaint months ago -- and guess what? There are only four (4) complaints listed and mine isn't there!:mad:

What's up with the NHTSA?! I know that several people have reported this problem to them. Do they purge the complaints after only a couple months -- before the problem is resolved? I didn't file a complaint about the WRX brakes because I enjoy typing.

I appologize if this has been delt with already, I haven't been following this thread recently.

There should have been an investigation and a TSB by this time.

Seems like a Ford Pinto type situation -- SOA might figure it is cheaper to pay the lawsuits than fix the brakes. The NHTSA isn't helping if they are deleting serious, valid complaints.

sajohnson, where are you going to see these "complaints" on the Subaru website. I wonder if one of the complaints was mine. I doubt it. I wrote SOA a "nastygram" about the overactive ABS last year and never received a reply.
-X

I was refering to the _NHTSA_ site: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/

As a US government agency, they should certainly not be deleting valid complaints, at least not until several months _after_ an issue is resolved.

In this case, I was at my local Subaru dealer today (regarding the lame VC AWD on the 5MT WRX) and asked them about this issue with the brakes. The tech confirmed that there is still no SOA TSB on this. In fact, he said he hadn't even heard of the problem!

Sadly, I'm not surprised that you never received a reply from SOA. It seems that most large corporations are very efficient when it comes to selling their products and collecting payment but rather, shall we say, 'slow' when it comes to resolving legitimate customer concerns/complaints.

I think I'll go to the NHTSA site and see if my complaint has been posted yet...

OK, I just checked the NHTSA and my complaint _is_ up, at least for now. It is the last one, #16.

BTW: When searching for complaints I have found that _not_ specifying a type of problem or equipment failure will guarantee that you will see _all_ the complaints for that particular year/make/model.

Otherwise, if you specify say, brakes, ABS, hydraulic -- you might miss some because the person mistakenly put their complaint under _air_ brakes or some other category.

There are only 16 _total_ complaints at this time for the 2002 WRX, and maybe half of those are for something other than brakes. This seems awfully strange to me. I mean, from all the posts here alone I would expect 50-100 complaints, easy.

Anyone who hasn't yet contacted the NHTSA, PLEASE do so. The link is in the above post.