phew.... had another *almost* disaster this weekend. i was in heavy traffic trying to get to the stadium and was merging over a lane, right on top of those steel "zipper" looking things that join sections of overpasses together. hit the bump, brakes went TO THE FLOOR, wife screamed :eek:, almost slammed into a BMW X5 that was stopped in the right lane.

DAMN, something has GOT to be done about this.... at this point tho', what can Subaru do? nothing!! :mad: its not like they can change a part to correct this, they are F#CKED UP! am i to assume the entire '02 lineup has these problems? or is this an Impreza problem? im worried for winter :( :confused:

Bob

I believe this is a common problem in all 2002 WRXs.

Interestingly, someone posted an opposing view: http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102889

Not that I'm about to disconnect my ABS.

I wonder what breaking will be like this winter in New England?

Cheers!
David

It happens to the 02 RS too. :(

Have your car checked out by competent independent shop, since nobody here trusts Subaru to do anything but sit and smile. Then after they fix it, send the fix to SOA for their amusement, and call the NHTSA Auto Safety Hotline (toll free at 1-888-DASH-2-DOT) to report safety defects or to obtain information on cars, trucks, child seats, highway or traffic safety.
But remember it took them 15 years to catch up to Ford and Firestone, so please be patient.

There is simply no way I'm giong to buy a WRX untill this issue gets resolved. :(

Originally posted by westy66
phew.... had another *almost* disaster this weekend. i was in heavy traffic trying to get to the stadium and was merging over a lane, right on top of those steel "zipper" looking things that join sections of overpasses together. hit the bump, brakes went TO THE FLOOR, wife screamed :eek:, almost slammed into a BMW X5 that was stopped in the right lane.

DAMN, something has GOT to be done about this.... at this point tho', what can Subaru do? nothing!! :mad: its not like they can change a part to correct this, they are F#CKED UP! am i to assume the entire '02 lineup has these problems? or is this an Impreza problem? im worried for winter :( :confused:

Bob

This isn't a Subaru poblem, but a typical 'con' with ABS. Everything is a trade-off. ABS can be fooled by bumps on the road, railroad tracks, snow,etc. The most common examble is that of trying to stop in heavy snow. ABS makes it worse, since it does not allow the tire to 'dig in'. This has been an OLD OLD issue since ABS first came out with ANY car.

The good news is your ABS in the Subaru is top notch and as most modern cars has 4 sensors.. each tire works independently... so the effect is minimized as much as is possible.

Don't like it? Pull the fuse and practice manual panic bracking. Personally, I prefer ABS. I believe its pros outweight the cons. I got a couple flat spotted front tires on my Miata once that really brought the point home ($$).

Rick

Originally posted by Flashman
This isn't a Subaru poblem, but a typical 'con' with ABS. Everything is a trade-off. ABS can be fooled by bumps on the road, railroad tracks, snow,etc.

Rick

i dont know.... ive driven a lot of different cars with ABS and havnt noticed ANYTHING like this before.

The brake pedal really went to the floor? At the point where the resistance in the pedal left were you still getting baking power at all or was the car free to coast? I really don't think that you can say that the pedal dropping from under your foot is "normal".

Ive had the exactly same thing happen to me twice coming into a tollbooth over bumpy pavement. ABS decided tires were slipping, and hence, no brakes. Scared the @#$$ out of me.

No, it really does go way down, almost to the floor. Braking power appears to disappear completely. I experienced this on a test drive when I was braking for a stoplight from 40mph and crossed a section of rippled pavement. Thank god I didn't have anyone in front of me because even with panic braking (foot HARD to the floor) it took me 3-4 times the normal distance to stop the car. I started braking WAY early because I was testing out how smooth I could get the car to downshift, and I still almost rolled into the intersection.

This is a very real problem that both SOA and numerous posters on the I-club are trying to discount. The WRX is a great car, but this braking problem is a serious issue. I wonder how many of the NUMEROUS wrecks that have occurred recently could have been avoided had the car's braking system been working properly. In my opinion, this is more serious than the infamous Audi "unintended acceleration" problem of the 1980s, only in this case the problem is real and not a hoax invented by a television show.

Evidently Subaru thinks that the press would be so bad from this that they choose to ignore the problem, hoping that they can make it through this model year without major drama until they can fix the problem in the next revision of the ABS system.

:mad:

I get behavior similar to this on my MY00 RS (thought not as bad from the sound of it), so it's not limited to the newer Imprezas. There were some bumps in the pavement at the joints on a bridge on my way to work, just before the parking lot turn in. If i was braking hard when i went over them, the ABS would kick in, and refused to let me slow down. Very disconcerting.

If you have the brakes on, and the tire bounces up off the pavement, the tire stops. ABS sees that as a locked wheel, and triggers. I always wondered if having nicer shocks would help this (thinking they could help keep the tire in better contact with the road), but i lost my job before i installed the new AGX's. =\

OK this is a long one....

braking (foot HARD to the floor) it took me 3-4 times the normal distance to stop the car.

When you hit the brakes, do you just leave your foot on the brake?

If you hit a (one) bump at the time you engage your brakes hard, the ABS will go on and STAY on until you lift off the brake.

Yes, it will take about 3-4 times the distance to stop because the ABS was designed for you maneuver AROUND an obsticle in your way without locking. Turning locked front wheels causes severe understeer and you'd plow into the subject you were trying to avoid.. hard.

Learning proper braking in any given situation is very important. 1st rule is STAY CALM. Let your brain control your foot and not your reactions to the events... adrenaline. (or your wife/passenger screaming or gasping for that matter).

If you feel your ABS come on, yet there's no continuous bumps, (ie you hit one bump that forced them to activate) ease off a little and re-apply the brakes. It only takes a fraction of a second to do this. But, make sure you are going in almost a straight line. If you do this at speed around a corner, you WILL get lift throttle oversteer.

Practice this in a parking lot that has bumps, or near street that has bumpy pavement or potholes. Here in the North East, we have plenty. Just make SURE there's no one else in front or around you when you do this. Be in a rural area, out of residential neighborhoods. (Train tracks in the middle of nowhere helps.) Just practice will get you the better feel for things. (We auto-x on some bumpy courses, and I've gotten familiar with the subaru ABS system over bumps... my RS used to do this too...I do feel that Subaru makes one of the best ABS systems out there).

If you get stopped by those in blue, explain the situation witha cevat like, "i'd rateher learn the limits of my braking and what happens with ABS in a safe envronment where there's no danger of hitting anyone instead of getting in an accident." Usually they either say, ok, or just take it somewhere else. If you're alone in a non-0residential area and there's no-one around, it'd be hard to get a ticket for learniong to be a better driver. :)

It takes practice, reptitiveness and patience. But learning where ABS Kicks in and what to to braking wise, can mean the difference between a non-accident, a fender bender or a totalled car.

--kC

Thanks for the great explanation KC, but what you're describing is a normal ABS system in operation. This is exactly the kind of BS response that everybody who's experienced this problem has been getting. This is NOT a normal ABS system in operation. No other car with ABS has acted this way, and I've driven LOTS of them.

Once I realized the pedal had gone to the floor, I completely removed my foot from the pedal, then tried to reapply braking pressure.... there was NOTHING. No pedal resistance whatsoever.

By the way, your statement about ABS being designed to make braking distances 3-4 times longer is TOTAL BS. The whole point of AntiLock brakes is to reduce braking distance by preventing wheel lock. A rolling wheel stops sooner than a sliding wheel.... remember? The ability to steer around an obstacle is merely a convenient bonus.

I ESPECIALLY resent your implication that everyone who has this problem simply doesn't know how to drive. That seems to have been the #1 response on this board, and it comes from people who really DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY"RE TALKING ABOUT because they haven't experienced the phenomenon firsthand.

Trust me, I can drive quite well, and I can brake with ABS quite effectively. Believe me, I've explored the limits of ABS on too many cars to mention right now, most of them rentals. :devil: This behavior is in NO WAY normal.

:monkey:

Originally posted by Porter
...Once I realized the pedal had gone to the floor, I completely removed my foot from the pedal, then tried to reapply braking pressure.... there was NOTHING. No pedal resistance whatsoever...

Is this phenomenon reproducible? Can you make it happen given the correct (or incorrect) environment and driver input? There seems to be a common thread to the posts on this subject. Most are mentioning an expansion joint or flex joint on a bridge as being a key ingrediant.

It is obviously not normal and needs to be brought to Subaru's attention. The only way to get over the hurdle of getting people to believe that it isn't driver error is to demonstrate the failure to them. I suppose there is another way to get them to admit that there is a problem but that involves many Subaru accidents and subsequent insurance claims. The latter isn't the method of choice.

So far I have only experienced the ABS engaging when I didn't think it should have. I was braking and starting a turn at about 15-20MPH over a bumpy area. The pedal didn't go to the floor but the ABS activated and it gave the impression of extending my stopping distance. I believe I could have pressed harder on the pedal and brought the car to a stop faster but I didn't need to. This cannot be what you are experiencing. If the pedal drops it is not driver error. Let's get past that.

My question, if you missed it is, can you make it happen again (and again), given the correct environment? This would make it much easier to address.

It seems as if some can reproduce the problem. If so, have they been able to get a Subaru tech to experience the problem? What was the result?

Here's a link to a somewhat dated site that contains quite a bit of ranting about similar problems:
http://home.sprynet.com/~mklphoto/SUBARU1.HTM

It's amazing how many people recently woke up on the wrong side of the bed. Chill dude. :) Let me explain what I said in a better way, using my and your comments.

I'm not the best writer in the world. I'll admit that whole hartedly. I never really cite reference becuase no matter what, someone else has other reference to refute a claim. So I can only respond to certain comments brought up. I'm not saying YOU HAVE TO do this or else. There are just suggestions that I put above and you can ignore them or try them out. :) It's up to you. Also, sometimes things are left out of the original story to make a point, or just throught they were so insignificant, they didn't matter. ("It's all in the detials") ;)

Yes, it will take about 3-4 times the distance to stop because the ABS was designed for you maneuver AROUND

It's not 3-4 times. I was using what you said as a quick reference. After re-reading it, I'll change that to... ABS, on dry pavement, does NOTHING to SHORTEN your stopping distances compared to a like system without ABS using threshold braking. (Threshold braking...braking to the point just before the wheels lock up). ABS releases the brakes and then engages, then releases, then engages, ohhh about 100 times a second. That's what they do. Threshold braking and braking uner normal circumstances on flat, level dry road, going straight, will ALWAYS stop better than ABS in the same car.

A rolling wheel stops sooner than a sliding wheel.... remember? The ability to steer around an obstacle is merely a convenient bonus.

See my 1st post. In simple terms: Sliding=bad (understeer in my post was meant as sliding, locked tires... you have no manueverability) ABS=Good to move and stop better. Threshold braking=best. It also depends on vehicle speed.

Me: I ESPECIALLY resent your implication that everyone who has this problem simply doesn't know how to drive. That seems to have been the #1 response on this board, and it comes from people who really DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY"RE TALKING ABOUT because they haven't experienced the phenomenon firsthand.

You: Once I realized the pedal had gone to the floor, I completely removed my foot from the pedal, then tried to reapply braking pressure.... there was NOTHING. No pedal resistance whatsoever.

Why did you take offense at a suggestion? That's all it was. You in fact did what I said... remove foot from ABS and re-apply. So you agree with me. What happened next was not normal. And wasn't said in the orginal post. But you resent the fact that I suggested you do something you already do? I don't get it. :)

Lastly, you read too much into what I said. That's the problem with the written word instead of face to face communication. You can get too many interpretations.

I experienced this on a test drive when I was braking for a stoplight from 40mph and crossed a section of rippled pavement. I started braking WAY early because I was testing out how smooth I could get the car to downshift, and I still almost rolled into the intersection.

So you were concentrating on your downshifting rather than braking, in a car you were testdriving? Was it your car then, or were you looking at purchasing a car? Friends car? See the problem with the written word? :)

You may indeed have a problem with your car. I never said that in my post because just as "get it checked out, you may have a problem" is a suggestion, "learn threshold braking" is another.

I'm on your side. If you think it's a problem have it looked at. But most of the other symptoms listed in this post by others here ARE NORMAL in a Subaru. The issue I would have (with your car) with the dealer is that when you lifted and then re-applied, there was NO braking pressure. That's a problem. ABS going on, under hard braking over bumps, is normal. Having no braking at all afterwards is not.

Nebver at any time. I never questioned your ability to drive.

I mean you no harm. Take me to your leader. :alien: :)

--kC

Sorry KC, I didn't mean to jump all over you like that.

The reason I'm a little touchy about this is that many people in other threads dedicated to the subject have reported exactly the same phenomenon.... TOTAL loss of braking when attempting to brake on an uneven surface. Not one wheel, but all four calipers completely ceasing to clamp.

I'll go back and find the other threads so I can show the pattern a little more clearly, i.e. owner reports problem with the braking system letting go on him, and several other I-clubbers jumping on him and telling him that it's perfectly normal ABS operation and that he simply doesn't know how to drive with ABS.

Please don't take my comments personally, I was just expressing frustration. I personally prefer to threshold brake, I learned to drive in a non-ABS vehicle and learned how to make it handle in all kinds of weather and surface conditions.

BTW, this happened on a test drive from the dealer, the salesman sitting next to me almost had a heart attack... he was like "Um, I'd better get that checked out when we get back." He told me later that he'd had another customer who had brought their car in several times for this problem and they'd been unable to fix it.

BTW this was a dealer in Virginia.

I'll dig up those old threads, see ya in a minute....

[edit] hmmm.... the search function seems to have crapped itself.

My dad had a '97 dodge ram with 4 wheel abs. I used to drive it up and down my street in the winter time and intentionally slam on the brakes. The brake pedal fell totally to the floor pan and then kicked back up at me and then sunk once more and stayed there while the brakes were doing their thing. My mom's Honda CR-V does this although not as hard as the truck, my 2.5RS does this although less than either of them. Thus far it feels the best. I've driven a new generation Dodge Neon with abs and it feels like somewhere in the middle of the ram and the CR-V,

So, wow, I had been reading about all of these breaking problems and had never really experienced it until the other day. I just started college and moved into an apartment complex, and right after the entrance (a couple hundred feet) there's a crack type dealey :) in the ground, then a speed bump. So after turning into the place, I'm going about 10~15 mph, and slowly start applying the breaks for the speed bump (they're huge) and right then and there, EVERY TIME, my abs triggers, and the pedal drops to the floor. Keep in mind, this is under light breaking.

Since I'm not familiar with the area enough, I can't bring my car in and say try to fix it right now. And yes, you're probably thinking, oh it's a young guy, he doesn' t know how to drive. Well, I would think I have some experience driving, I went to Bondurant, and i've driven a few high performance (camaro ss, viper) and well built (bmw 330, toyota sequoia) and my old car, toyota celica... I've experienced ABS on all of those, except for the celica and the viper (no abs one either) of course. And I'm quite familiar with threshold breaking. The ABS on all of these other cars never felt anything like this. I totally agree. It scared the living daylights out of me when it happened, but i'll just hope that someone else gets it fixed, and then posts on the board so I can tell the dealership what to do.

I had a 95 GMC Jimmy that did this! I almost had numerous accidents due to the ABS engaging on bumps under light-moderate braking. I wanted to sell the car, once I figured out this was "Normal" and not a fluke type thing. I can see the class action suit on this one..... Brakes that disengage to cause accidents!
Bobby Hopp
'01 Audi 225TT Quattro coupe

I have not noticed any unusual braking behavior in the few weeks that I have been driving my WRX, but some of the reports here definitely sound like there might be an issue. We probably won't be able to figure out on a message board it there is a problem with all cars, some cars, of if this is "normal".

I would encourage everybody who observes these problems to report them to their dealers. Especially if you can reproduce it, please have it checked out! If the service technician doesn't give it the proper attention, talk to the service manager, your regional service manager, etc., until you feel like your concerns are addressed. If there really is a malfunction here, it needs to be found and fixed as quickly as possible, before people start crashing their cars. And while it makes perfect sense to validate your observations with other owners, discussing it on a message board will not solve a problem. When I saw my dealer about a less serious issue, and mentioned how it had been discussed online, the technician said (paraphrased) that he doesn't care about the issues that people report on the internet, he only cares about issues that customers bring to him, and that SoA informs him about. So let them hear it!

My 98 M3 did the same thing. Would scare the CRAP outta me but usually if I backed off break (disengaging ABS?) and hitting the brake again then it would bite.

OK, having experienced on 2-3 occasions the previously discussed ABS problems, I did some experimenting. It was rainy and slick outiside today, so on a few occasions I engaged the ABS in a safe spot where I knew I wouldn't get into trouble if something went wrong. On all tests it worked just as it should. I could definitely feel/hear it working, but the pedal did not drop, and I felt that I had maximum braking (for the surface) at all times. Never once did I get the OH-GOD, NO BRAKES feeling that I've experienced a few times on the dry pavement. The pedal stayed firm and although I stayed on the brakes hard, it returned control to me as soon as the wheels regained grip. I did not have to lift the pedal to disengage the ABS. I also felt the 4-channel system working as I could feel the car yaw slightly from one side to the other as the individual brakes worked independently. When the problem ocurred it was as if ALL the brakes released regardless of the fact that only one wheel had lost contact with the pavement for a microsecond. I just wanted to share this with you, and maybe get some feedback.

I haven't had this problem with the Legacy yet, but my 97 Chevy S10 used to do this when I first bought it.

Hitting a bump under braking would sometimes cause the ABS to activate. The brake pedal would go to the floor and the truck would keep rolling forward like it had no brakes. Not fun when you are approaching a busy intersection. And this was on perfectly dry roads.

After about a year I replaced the brake pads with some good quality aftermarket ones. Made a big difference in the way the ABS system responds and I haven't had the problem occur since then.

Good tires with better grip than the stock ones should help as well since they will be less prone to lock up.

-Steve

First, to all who believe that SOA is trying to "sweep this under the carpet". If you stop and think for a moment, I'm sure you will realize that the liability (if nothing else) would preclude them from taking a position like that.

I experienced this anomoly one time. As a result, I spoke to SOA and the tech dept. is on the case. My car is at the dealers at this moment being checked. I'm sort of a test case, since apparently very few calls have been made about this problem. So, I would suggest that anyone who has had this experience should call SOA (be nice!) and let them know what has happened. I know from personal experience that nothing is more difficult to fix then the "it only happened once" type problem. Without symptoms a cure is hard to develop.

SOA logged the problem, but said that I should take it to the dealer. I called the dealer and they said I should bring it in. I agree, but the dealer is 2hrs away. I might be able to get roadside assist to haul it in for me, but I'd still have to go and pick it up. That sucks.... I'm sure they won't find anything wrong with it anyway. Could some of you that live closer to your dealership take yours in too? I'll see if I can schedule an appointment anyway.

Okay, I'm in...happened to me this weekend for the first time. Almost went into an X5 at a stop light. That wouldn't have been pretty. Scared the S*@* out of me. I guess nobody knows until they bring it in, but I have a feeling that dealerships are going to say:

a) "We drove your car for hours and had a whole lotta fun, but never experienced the problem you discussed...we think you're nuts"
or
b) Yeh, it seems like what you are saying MAY be true, but we don't think there is anything that can be done. Drive safely.

Whaddayathink?

Or they could say.... "We couldn't duplicate your problem, but we figure any problem you're having is probably due to you driving the car too hard, and we consider that abuse so we're not going to cover this repair even if we find something wrong."

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Zoomer
First, to all who believe that SOA is trying to "sweep this under the carpet". If you stop and think for a moment, I'm sure you will realize that the liability (if nothing else) would preclude them from taking a position like that.

Your position is naive. After talking with SOA about other issues and listening to their well rehearsed corporate excuses, I wouldn't put ANYTHING beyond them.

When I talked to the SOA rep, she requested that I call SOA when the appointment is made for the inspection. She told me that they hoped to find something fixable, but they wanted to know if no problem was found so that they could investigate further.

Okay, I'm volunteering to be the point man. If you have experienced this problem please email me at "hutchcpm@aol.com" with the following info:

1. You name and email address
2. your VIN #
3. date of mfg. (from the sticker inside your door)
4. weather conditions at time of problem
5. road conditions at the time

I have a contact at SOA that wants to help but they need info.

Here's a little more info on the problem:

Some cars (Including Impreza's, Forester's & Legacy's) could have a bad master cylinder. My RS did what the first post describe's at around 4,000 miles. It was IMMEADIATELY diagnoised by the dealer and SOA as a defective master cylinder and was replaced under warranty. No problems since, brakes work great during day-to-day driving, autocrossing and rallycrossing.

Unfortunately there are other things that can cause similar symptoms and I don't think that everyone's master cylinder is bad. Things like:
- Unfamiliarity with the ABS system
- Those crappy RE92's
- Loose or rough surface
just to name a few.

It sounds to me like SOA is having trouble determining which problems are legitiment brake system failures, and which are caused by some other reason.

I doubt that SOA is trying to "sweep this under the carpet", and no I am not naive...I just have a great dealer that works withSOA and me to get problems solved. Sadly, not every Subaru dealer can make that claim. Matter of fact, when I have had to call SOA they treated me fairly and did not give me any "excuse" that was "well rehearsed". Instead they either helped me solve my problem, or pointed me in the proper direction to get the problem solved.

Hope this helps some of you out.

OK - I've probably driven 10 (or more) WRXs under all kinds of conditions and have not experienced this.

My brand new WRX does not have this problem (I've tried it), neither did my old WRX.

Your assertion "I believe this is a common problem in all 2002 WRXs." is therefore false, unless you are describing a scenario I have not tested.

I don't doubt YOU (and others) either have a real problem or perceived problem, and definitely should get it checked out by the dealer.

Glenn

Ok, I just wanted to state something. First of all I personally believe that SOA isn't fully aware of the problem. They've got a few reports of a few drivers complaining about ABS problems. They've probably got a few complaints about aliens living in gloveboxes too. I'm a tech manager for a small computer company, and I admit that when I hear something really unusual/unlikely I try and chalk it up to user inexperience. Sometimes I'm wrong though. I've also seen some really rare software bugs, that only happen when you hold your mouth right under a full moon and you're wearing a plaid shirt. I've experienced this braking problem, and I can't believe that it was designed to work in this manner. And I've tried and tried to duplicate it, but I can't. Only happens when I'm not expecting it, and only twice in 10K miles. I'm familiar with ABS systems, their motors, valves, sensors, pumps, control systems, etc.... Admittedly the setup on the subaru is more advanced than any I've worked with before. I'm used to 2 to 3 channel systems that work from wheel slip alone. I understand that the Subaru ABS also uses accelerometers and some complex software to determine the optimum manner to brake. All ABS systems made in the past 5-6 years have not only failsafes that switch the system to standard brakes if the accumulator or pump pressures are low, but don't hesitate to light a big red indicator on the dash telling you that someting isn't right. I'm confident that it's a software problem or a sensor glitch. I'm going to take the WRX in for inspection as soon as I possibly can, but I KNOW that they are not going to check what I think needs to be checked. They will pull codes, check connections, fluid levels, pressures, and take it for a test drive. Somehow we'll have to make enough noise that a Subaru Engineer is going to take apart the ABS control system, and scrutinize every line of code, and every ABS circuit for possible tolerances or conditions that weren't anticipated. Even if I had crappy tires, bad driving habits, or even got under the car and started cutting wires, that's no reason for the ABS to go berserk. The electronics/controls are SUPPOSED to be failsafe and switch me to regular brakes when something goes wrong. I don't want to blame anybody, I don't want to sue anybody, and I'm not claiming to be the god of all things ABS. I'm just sharing my knowledge and experience in the hopes that we can be productive in finding a solution. And I KNOW, without a doubt, that there IS a problem with MY WRX. Thanks for reading my long rant.

Wow. Quite the thread. It seems that some people must have different cars. I know that people tire of my saying this, but I have tried braking my WRX in every situation that I can think of:

On gravel, on steel drawbridges that we have in Chicago, rumble strips, you name it. Hell, I can barely get my ABS to activate! Then again, when bumps make the ABS activate, I release pedal pressure then re-apply the brakes, just like they taught me in Skippy school. No problem.

But I have never, ever experienced what many are calling a secret Subaru plot. But realistically, after what happened to Ford with the Explorer, do any of you honestly think that ANY car manufacturer would voluntarily or knowingly issue a car, especially a performance car like the WRX, with substandard brakes, or a system that can make the pedal go to the floor over precisely the kind of stuff that the WRX is supposed to shine on?

I think not.

Probably the most important thing is that any of you experiencing this problem, should complain just as vociferously to your dealer as you do to this board. If you don't get satisfaction from the dealer, find the area SOA rep. Every region has one. Subaru cares about the WRX like they have no other car since the first generation Outback.

Here's when I can get my ABS to go off...in the rain, if I apply the brakes firmly and abruptly. It's also not the kind of braking that I do, and is the kind of braking that means I've probably overdriven the car (not that I'm implying that anyone here did such a thing...this is my experience alone).

Those who know me, know that I have DMS Golds on my car, with 17" P1s and Dunlop 9000s. But even with the stock suspension, I never noticed this problem. Some cars are different, apparently. But to blame Subaru for this, and to accuse them of sweeping it under the carpet defies logic. The Brit boys drive the piss out of their cars and to my knowledge, they haven't been experiencing similar problems, unless I just missed it on Scoobynet.

Something is wrong, if this stuff is going on. Go to the same spot, and duplicate the conditions. Since this is happening when it's dry out to most of you, this should be an easy thing to do. If it's a problem with the system, it should be duplicatable. But every ABS car that I have ever driven, when the wheels are unweighted, feels like the brakes have stopped working. Getting off of, then right back on the whoa pedal brings things back to normalcy.

There are a couple of people who have taken their cars in, and are having the dealer check out the systems. I'll be very curious to see what happens.

Kevin

OK - Just have to add my two cents worth. :monkey:

I concur with DammitBeevis that it could be a software error deep in the digital bowels of the ABS system. Who knows how many factors have to be just right before it misbehaves. I think the critical issue is whether or not it can be reproduced. Being in the software industry, I know how hard these things are to track down unless they can be reproduced. As long as this problem cannot be shown to exist SOA will not go to the expense of rectifying it. Also, the software may be another vendors code which complicates it even more. I am just speculating here - just another take on the problem. :rolleyes:

If anyone can reproduce this problem then document it as best you can and submit it to the regional service manager or higher. Only when it can be proven that there is a problem, will they spend resources on the solution.

That probably wasn't worth two cents.

I won't make it tomorrow, but I'm going to try duplicating the conditions in the last place it ocurred. I think I can probably whack the same bump at same speed under braking as I did before. I'll let you know what I find out.

Sounds like Zoomer knows what he is talking about. If they get information, they can maybe sort out what is going on.

The problem is when there are other "issues" getting mixed in. i.e. Brakes have grooves so they are all defective and it is a vast conspiracy.

Also, if they start throwing parts at the car for something that they "think" may cause it, they may mask the problem, but not fix it. If they don't fix it, it could happen again.

So, go with Zoomer. Get it to a dealer and have them check out the obvious stuff. Call SOA and let them know what you experienced. Don't call them if you didn't experience it just to say that you read it on the internet.

If the dealer doesn't take you seriously - get SOA on them.

Just my $.02. The more info. we provide the better things will be towards a fix. P. S. - I can't get my Rex to do it - and I really tried.

Spider

i dont think this is only a problem on 'some' WRX's or Impreza's.
i have put 7500 miles on my rex and have only experienced it twice. the condition have to be right. and my wife's New Beetle does NOT do this.

when rolling at only 25 or 30 mph, you should be able to stop in like what, 30 feet? if you are applying the brakes HARD, and whack a bump you WILL know what im talking about.

TRY THIS: find some railroad tracks... make sure nobody is behind you and there is no train coming :p ..... apply your brakes hard RIGHT BEFORE you hit them.... when you hit that first track, your brakes will go right to the floor and you will continue to roll like your arent even applying your brakes!!! its scary! they will catch in a couple seconds, but by that time you could have already hit something. i can repeat this at will. AND have done it in a friends WRX!

Bob :mad:

Hey Westy, this was one of the things that I tried during my attempts to replicate the brake problem, and my car just stopped. The ABS did activate, but without any drama. Just a nice, smooth stop. I was quite impressed.

I forget what else I did, but if you search for a thread called "GTGUY's WRX brake test" or something like that in this forum, you can see what I did, and what happened.

Kevin

I tried it too Westy and the ABS operated as expected. I used two different sets of tracks on my test, one set was fairly smooth and the other was rough. Neither produced the effect you described. I will try one more time though because the ABS didn't activate until I hit the tracks. I will try to activated it before I get to the tracks to see if this makes any difference. I don't see why it should but in the name of science I will be thorough. And I have one more set of tracks to try.

i own a 2000 2.5rs and have experienced the same problems when going over rumble strips or bumpy road areas while braking.
I've been a Tech for 14 years and have never experienced this in other makes or models. I thought it may have just been my scooby but apparently it is a problem across the board. I'm going to research this and if I find anything I'll be sure to post it.


jediknight.

Originally posted by Zoomer
First, to all who believe that SOA is trying to "sweep this under the carpet". If you stop and think for a moment, I'm sure you will realize that the liability (if nothing else) would preclude them from taking a position like that.



uh, have you never seen Fight Club? remember "The Formula" ? This really is the way they operate. It's not like SOA is some caring big brother... they are concerned about exactly one thing: the bottom line. This is how it is with ALL corporations and if they think they can get away with it without losing face, they will try.

whether or not they think they can get away with it depends on how much this problem is reported to people OTHER than subaru.

I disagree. Subaru isn't like Ford, where a multi-million dollar lawsuit or three won't kill them. There is absolutely no way that the company would knowingly put cars with a potentially fatal problem out there. They sold about 190,000 cars last year. Hell, Toyota sold more Camrys than that! Were publicity to get out about a brake problem, the company's North American presence would be in serious jeopardy. Look at how long it took Audi to recover from the "unintentional acceleration" rumors.

People at Subaru drive the cars, dealers drive the cars, their loved ones drive the cars. Who among us, even the most heartless, would voluntarily put their friends or family in harm's way by putting something that is knowingly defective out there?

Has anyone been able to duplicate the problem? I know that a few guys were going to try.

Kevin

Here is a thread posted in general that has two instances where the dealer was able to fix the issue, two different items, one from toby in the first post, second from StormRacing about 12 posts down (& mentioned in first post)

1. ABS module replaced
2. sensor replaced

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=108976

PLEASE take any bad braking cars to the dealer as soon as possible!

Who among us, even the most heartless, would voluntarily put their friends or family in harm's way by putting something that is knowingly defective out there?

The same people that work for tobacco companies?:rolleyes:

Or those who put (and kept) the fuel tanks in GM trucks outside the frame rails?

Sorry, but without hijacking the thread, tobacco can't be compared to allegedly defective brakes on a car. If someone chooses to smoke, party on. But brakes, especially on a performance car, are another matter. They are a critical component.

As far as the GM fuel tank "test" in which cars on the telly blowed up real good...please.

I refer to my previous statement.

Kevin

Slide, thanks for the info, but I don't think this is a solution to the exact problem we are having here. It seems the problem that was solved in your linked thread was an "easier" one to fix... i.e. the problem was obviously apparent and an isolatable component was at fault.
With our problem, the main problem is that it's impossible for the usual routine testing to find the problem.

I'm going to email Zoomer with my info and hope that he's making progress. (Zoomer, please keep us posted as what to do and what's going on) But, I'm afraid it might depend on one of us being able to reliably replicate the situation, then go to a dealer and ask the manager or better yet the owner to take a test drive and make him wet his nice suit pants. then something might get done.

As I illuded to before, this is not a problem, unfortunately, where you can drop your car off for service and say "oh, by the way the ABS screws up when I hit bumps" and they can diagnose it and fix it...it just isn't that type of problem...which is a shame since it is such a life threatening issue. Once again, today, I almost rear ended someone when I was doing 25 mph and he cut in front of me on a bumpy road. I had to head for the shoulder and almost hit a curb to avoid ramming him. This is my 5'th or 6'th time it's happened in 2800 miles.

Jeff C.
--who now drives with one hand on the e-brake :mad:

Originally posted by SlideWRX
Here is a thread posted in general that has two instances where the dealer was able to fix the issue, two different items, one from toby in the first post, second from StormRacing about 12 posts down (& mentioned in first post)

1. ABS module replaced
2. sensor replaced

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=108976

PLEASE take any bad braking cars to the dealer as soon as possible!

Clearly nobody here can fix it, so you should take it to the dealer and hope it happens when they drive it. The sooner the better, before you or someone else gets hurt. If you did rear end somebody, think how hard it would be to prove there is a defect with the ABS.

Just an FYI
I've gone through the same intersection, hitting the same bump at the same speed with the same amount of braking quite a few times (don't have an exact count, 15 or so maybe). And I cannot duplicate the problem. In fact, I can't even get the ABS to engage under the similar conditions. I've got to practically stand on it to even get the ABS working in this spot. And then I just get a chirp as the tire bounces through the bump/hole. Maybe I hit a stone or something that one time. I dunno. Anyway, just thought I'd let you guys know. Still trying to find time to take it to the dealership.

I spoke (email) with my friend at SOA this morning, they have informed FHI of the "reported" problem. SOA has been unable to duplicate the problem, FHI same deal. FWIW me either. My friend is running around in a WRX trying to make it happen .. no luck so far. I'm told that the "big wigs" are involved.

We need data! I've gotten several emails with the info I requested but not many. They can't fix what they can't find.

Tell them to come to my house..... I have a little hill in the driveway and the other day I drove over it and almost hit the garage because the stupid brakes didn't work.

Happened to me this morning. About 3 miles from my house, approaching a stoplight at about 20 or so. Braked normally (I tend to roll to the stop, not stop abruptly). Hit a patch of rough road and the abs kicked in. If I was going any faster into the stop I would have definately rear ended the car in front of me. Talk about being pissed off. I'd guess this is about the 4th or 5th time it happened to me. The real problem is it is totally unpredictable. It's got to be an interplay between alot of factors.

-jb

As I've said before, the unpredictability and difficulty in replicating this problem is going to be what kills us (hopefully not literally) in finding and fixing it. Good job with posting your issues, and everyone please make sure you email Zoomer with your info.


For what it's worth. It's happened to me 5 or 6 random times (2 different places have caused it twice each). But, last night I hit railroad tracks perfectly perpendicular, on purpose, and hit my brakes, and the abs kicked in but the car came to a nice abrupt stop! I dont' get it. My new theory is, it's either a whole slew of random factors, or that it takes all the wheels being "locked"/airborne at different milliseconds to fool the computer and mess it up, unlike hwat happened in my railroad track test where the two front wheels would have "locked" at the same time.

Jeff C.

For those of you that just got on this boat, here's links to a couple other threads on the same subject, the second one contains some technical info that some might find enlightening(sp?)
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96438
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76823

OK, I've seen threads in which people complain about the ABS system on their cars and I thought A) this is a somewhat rare problem a minority of owners are experiencing or B) it was a bunch of whiners who are overdriving their cars and blaming the ABS system for not stopping them. Sorry, but that was my assessment of the situation.
Well....it happened to me for the first time at ~8,000 miles. I was sent down a detour and I goosed the car up to about 35 mph when somebody pulled out in front of me and stopped (idiot-but that's another story). The weather was clear and dry, but the portion of the road where the right of my car was rolling had light gravel dust on it from construction. I hit my brakes hard (as I have been forced to do on two previous occasions) and the ABS immediately kicked in - the "bumping" on my foot, etc. Then the pedal just dropped (not to the floor, but close) and I had no brakes for at least a second or two:eek: I thought I was going to broadside the moron who decided to park in front of me! The second or so when I had no brakes gave me enough time to release then re-engage the brakes at which point they bit, under the same road conditions...I know I should not pump the brakes on an ABS system but I was a bit panicked and thought I was going to hurt somebody, so insincts took over.
Unfortunately, the road is now clean so I cannot reproduce the problem but I apologize for thinking you folks were "whacked". I will report this to my dealer.
I am definitely going to be super careful the first time I drive in the snow and will be prepared to disable the system by pulling the fuse if I think it is appropriate.

I had experienced the problem before, but I think it's not a defect instead a design issue.

I experience this issue whenever I brake into a railroad cross. ABS would kick in as the tires were "unloaded". When the car settles, I wouldn't be able to gain more brake power when step harder on the brake padal.

I think ABS is just trying to do its job at the "wrong time".
When the car brakes and tire gets unloaded, wheel gets locked up maybe for a split second. ABS sense wheels lock up at X amount of brake pressure thus it begin to bleed the pressure slightly to allow the wheel to spin again.

However, ABS doesn't know traction condition has changed after the car settles. It still think the traction condition is as poor as the moment you did the "jump". So when you try to apply more brake pressure, ABS just bleed them away to prevent wheels from locking up. I believe this process would keep going for about 2 seconds and you can hear a ticking sound from under hood.

How do I deal with this? Release the brake completely and reapply the brake again. Release the brake fully will disengage the ABS and you will be able to brake much harder since the tires do have the traction again.

Yeah Jason, but that is NOT how ABS is supposed to work. It is supposed to modulate the brakes several times a second.

Two comments/questions. Do any of the people that this has happened to have aftermarket wheels/tires, and any sort of brake upgrades? And how many more (I know that DammitBevis did) of you have tried to duplicate this problem. It seems like it should be duplicatable, if it's a mechanical deficiency.

Kevin

gtguy

I don't have anything aftermarket on my car.

As far as it being duplicatable, there are plenty of comments, including mine, about that earlier in the thread. It's not easy...

Jeff C.

OK I sat down and thought out what could cause this problem using the information from the Subaru Service Manual posted here:
http://www.i-club.com/forums/showth...&threadid=76823

Here's how I understand it.
The wheels never "lock" on the WRX, they will only slip up to 30% as defined by "slip=100*(vehicle speed-wheel speed)/vehicle speed.

At 25MPH, the ABS would activate when wheel speed dropped below 23MPH. I can assume on a single bump that the CPU would have a pretty good idea of the actual vehicle speed and that this would work OK.

HERE IS WHERE MY ASSUMPTIONS START

OK the CPU is now deciding how fast that wheel should be turning. It's logical to assume that it can't rely on the speed of the other front wheel for vehicle speed reference, since you may have just hit an ice patch with both front wheels. Following the same sort of worst-case logic, you wouldn't rely on the rear wheel speed either since the driver may have slammed on the brakes and they could be decelerating rapidly as well, but not reached the threshold yet. This is where the G-Sensor comes in. It's measuring the decelration and comparing it to the reference taken before the skid started to generate a very good estimate of current vehicle speed. Sounds good right?
So, what happens if another bump screws up the G-Sensor reading so that it over-estimates the vehicle speed by even just a tiny 2-3MPH. Even though the wheels are at 0% wheel slip, the computer may be calculating the threshold 8% wheel slip for all four wheels. This is in the ideal range for the ABS system, so it's happy, it thinks it's doing it's job correctly, and sees no reason to increase brake pressure. It also won't be using any of the wheels for a vehicle speed reference, and the wheel acceleration threshold needed to de-activate the ABS will never be reached because in reality the wheels are turning as fast as they can. So that leaves you stuck at whatever brake pressure level you were at when the slip occurred.
The only way to recover is to release the brakes to reset the ABS Assumptions, or to wait until some sort of failsafe in the program realizes how unlikely it is to maintain perfectly even wheel slip on all four wheels and stops the silliness itself.

Well, what do you folks think? Sound plausable? I love to be criticized.:D

It's certainly plausible. As is any other reasonable assumption/theory at this point. You cna't negate any of these ideas unless you're a Subaru tech who built the system. Hopefully some important people will see these ideas and ask the correct people.

Jeff C.

I suspect it blends the calc'd speed from the g-sensor with the VSS or ABS tone measured speed.

If I were writing the code, I would ONLY use the g-sensor when two or more wheels appeared to be slipping.

When just one is slipping, the measured speed is much more likely to be true.

Glenn

Keeping in mind this is all hypothetical.
1. Slip hits threshold on right front wheel.
2. CPU is using other 3 wheels for vehicle speed calc.
3. Brake pressure is still increasing on other three wheels.
4. Bump causes Decel Calc to error on the fast side.

5.1 CPU ignores other 3 wheels and assumes they are slipping
because of G-Sensor Readings. (original theory)
(low braking power results, can reset by current wheel
speed if an error is detected)
-or-
5.2 CPU ignores G-Sensor and uses wheel speed that MAY
be errored by slippage. (opposite original theory)
(may result in complete lockup, actual vehicle speed would
be difficult to re-estimate without releasing the brakes
completely for a moment)
-or-
5.3 CPU averages G-Sensor (poss too fast) with Wheels (poss
too slow) (Glenn's theory)
(erratic results, but most reliable, could follow 5.1 or 5.2
effect)

Further descriptions:
5.1 Very possible situation, would need the fewest subroutines to make it work. Programmer could easily not take into account such sensor deviation given it's 'normal' specifications. Low braking power wouldn't be acceptable if bad sensor readings are taken into account. (possible oversight in engineering)

5.2 The lockup would be instantly detectable, and you would only need to release the brakes for a moment to recover. Worst case being that you're on a VERY slick surface, and there isn't enough time/friction to accelerate the wheel back up to full speed after being locked. How to know when to ignore the G-Sensor would be the trick. (not reliable on really slick surfaces)

5.3 Most complex situation, would need code to deal with either situation. It would be correct the most often, but may not act consistently. (sounds familiar)


and yes, I'm bored.....

Where is the G-Sensor for the ABS located anyway? Seems like the way to test this would be (in a safe and controlled environment) to bump and/or mis-orient the sensor while in operation. Technically bumping the sensor while not changing it's orientation SHOULDN'T alter it's readings since everything should average out, only instantaneous readings would be in error. Mis-orienting it would show how much the calculations relied on it.

Originally posted by Porter

By the way, your statement about ABS being designed to make braking distances 3-4 times longer is TOTAL BS. The whole point of AntiLock brakes is to reduce braking distance by preventing wheel lock. A rolling wheel stops sooner than a sliding wheel.... remember? The ability to steer around an obstacle is merely a convenient bonus.


Sorry, but the primary purpose of any ABS system is to allow the driver to retain directional (steering) control during hard braking, rather than letting the wheel lock up and slide. A rolling wheel stops sooner than a sliding wheel? No, a rolling wheel steers better than a sliding wheel. Did you read your owners manual? "The ABS system does not always decrease stopping distance. You should always maintain a safe following distance from other vehicles. When driving on badly surfaced roads, gravel roads, icy road, or over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer for a vehicle with the ABS system than one without." The "ABS Stops on a Dime" claim is salesman-speak. Those of us in the back shop know better.
ASE Master Tech L1 certified

You have obviuosly never experienced what we have.
Again, as was stated by another member, ABS should NEVER, no matter on what road conditions, ice, mud, gravel, etc, EVER cause the stopping distance to more than DOUBLE. The Subaru ABS is flawed - period.


Originally posted by WRXSTi69


Sorry, but the primary purpose of any ABS system is to allow the driver to retain directional (steering) control during hard braking, rather than letting the wheel lock up and slide. A rolling wheel stops sooner than a sliding wheel? No, a rolling wheel steers better than a sliding wheel. Did you read your owners manual? "The ABS system does not always decrease stopping distance. You should always maintain a safe following distance from other vehicles. When driving on badly surfaced roads, gravel roads, icy road, or over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer for a vehicle with the ABS system than one without." The "ABS Stops on a Dime" claim is salesman-speak. Those of us in the back shop know better.
ASE Master Tech L1 certified

Just so you folks know. I ran into ONE situation where ABS more than doubled my stopping distance. It was a parking lot with some nearby construction, the previous heavy rain had washed a 1/4" thick layer of really gooey mud onto the pavement. If my tires would have just locked and dug-in and piled the mud up in front of themselves, I would have stopped in a few feet, but NOOOO, as soon as the wheel stopped turning, they'd release and suck some more slick mud underneath themselves, I might as well have not used the brakes. I thought quickly and hit the parking brake, and as soon as the back wheels started dragging I stopped. I would have liked to have a switch to turn them off at that time though.

Ok D.B. We'll give you that scenario in causing ABS to horribly affect stoppnig distance! But how RARE is that!!?

Jeff C.

Originally posted by WRXSTi69
A rolling wheel stops sooner than a sliding wheel? No, a rolling wheel steers better than a sliding wheel. Did you read your owners manual?
It obviously steers better, nobody questions that. But it also stops sooner. It might not be in your owners manual, but any high school physics text will explain the difference between the two different coefficients of friction (static and kinetic).

You get the optimum braking power by braking as hard as possible without ever blocking the wheels. The reason why ABS can make your braking distance longer is that it doesn't achieve this goal. It will release the brakes when it detects blocking (very quickly!), but it doesn't prevent the wheels from ever blocking. So a perfect driver would be better than ABS. But nobody is perfect, and most drivers are very far from it. That's why ABS reduced the braking distance for most people, especially under difficult conditions.

Peace please. You are both right but too stubborn to admit that the other one is too. The points that you are making are not mutually exclusive. You both get to be right.

BTW, I love ABS. I just don't like not being able to trust the WRX ABS all the time. I was at least aware of situations in my old pontiac that would confuse the ABS (mud, grass, loose gravel). I can accept the give-take situation with ABS. It's the unrpredictibility of these new problems that bother me.

Well guess what?

I duplicated it, or I think I did.

~25 over a speed bump (at work), with only the right wheels over the speed bump, and brake hard.

Got some ABS going over the bump, yet the right front kept modulating even after I was beyond the bump.

I was able to stop fine. Firm pedal. (your car still may have a hydraulic problem).

Also bear in mind I have PZero Rossos, so YMMV.

Here's what I think is happening:
the brakes are grippy enough that as soon as the solenoid switches off bypass, and the caliper grips again, the tire skids again instantly, and this of course triggers the ABS again.
And repeat.
And repeat.

That is kind of what is supposed to happen with ABS, but if it hadn't triggered in the first place over the bump, the ABS wouldn't have triggered on the flat bit by itself, so it appears that being triggered by a bump induces a state where the ABS activates where it wouldn't have.

But then again, this problem should just show up with normal ABS activation, but then you'd be much closer to the threshold, and not beyond it.

The only way to diagnose this is with some data acquisition from all four tone rings and valve solenoid outputs.

If this is "the" problem, I don't think it is a firmware bug per se, more of an ABS design issue. I expect they could fix it by having some "dead time" before the solenoid fires, or making the activation a bit less like a square wave, which might also harm braking.

I wonder how the Bosch systems handle it?

Glenn

Did it "feel" like you lost about 50% or more of your braking ability? I mean, if you were trying to stop at a stoplight, and this happened about 15 ft before the light, would you worry that it might not stop in time? That's how I would characterize it. Like all of the wheels lost braking power, not just the one?

^
|
|
Sorry, that was me, forgot to logout my Wife first.

^
|
|
Sorry, that was me, forgot to logout my Wife first.

Did it "feel" like you lost about 50% or more of your braking ability? I mean, if you were trying to stop at a stoplight, and this happened about 15 ft before the light, would you worry that it might not stop in time? That's how I would characterize it. Like all of the wheels lost braking power, not just the one?

Well, it wasn't underwear changing time. It felt like I maybe lost 20-40% of the stopping power, and had a firm (but buzzing) pedal. I had no real problem stopping.

Again, had I not hit the bump, it wouldn't have been cycling braking that hard on that surface. The issue is how long the cycling lasts, I could understand it happening for a few feet, but this happened until I had basically stopped.

It isn't clear to me that this isn't what any other ABS system might do. Time to hit the books again.

Glenn

To all:

I just purchased a WRX wagon and have to say that I haven't experienced this phenominon with this car, but have with two other very highly regarded sports cars that I've owned:

94 RX7
98 BMW M Roadster

Both have ABS and in one instance with the M Roadster about 6 months ago, thought I was going to die. I had to make a panic stop about 1/8 mile before a freeway offramp. The car in front of me dead stopped and I slammed my usually increadible breaks. They started to lock up and pulled to a rough patch on the side of the road. The car slowed, but then the brakes let off as I started steering onto the shoulder knowing if I didn't, i'd rear end the car in front of me. The brakes behaved exactly as I've seen described above. They didn't stop the car, they slowed it while still allowing me to steer. It scared the hell out of me and I almost went completely off the shoulder. I had the brakes checked by BMW and they basically explained the same behavior over unevensurfaces under heavy braking that was described above. I also had a similar less severe incident with the RX7.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think this is a Subaru issue, but as pointed out by others, a ABS issue. Also as someone else pointed out, I'd highly recommend taking your car to an open lot and try panic stopping it several times, several different ways under controlled circumstances so you know how the car will behave. I do this every time I get a rental car. You'll be amazed at how it will affect your following distances. It's what I usually recommend to people I know who tailgate. :)

Hope this helps someone.

Glenn,
That sounds about right, I'd be willing to bet the 'feel' is proportional to the panic level at the time.
Was it repeatable? If so, you think you could get the critical dimensions of that speed bump for us? :D (That'd be fun trying to explain to somebody walking by)

I have not tried to repeat it.

I just changed a bunch of stuff on the car, so not sure any further testing on my car will be valid.

I'll try tomorrow though. :)

Glenn

I think what might be going on here is "yaw-monent buildup delay *1". Yaw-moment is the tendency of a vehicle to turn about a vertical. For instance, if both right tires are on a low friction surface like sand or ice, while both left tires are on a high friction surface like dry asphalt, then the car would tend to turn left under braking. This tendency will vary from vehicle to vehicle, but tends to be greater on smaller cars (And I believe the WRX sedan's wider track may also increase this tendency). To counteract this tendency, the ABS on smaller cars is sometimes supplemented with "yaw-moment builup delay". This feature delays the build up of brake pressure to the front wheel thats on the high friction surface (has the most traction).

Let's assume for the moment that the Impreza's ABS has this feature. If the ABS is "inadvertently" triggered at one of the front wheels by a bump, then the system may interpret that wheel as being on a low friction surface, thus applying "yaw-moment buildup delay". Now two things are happening. Brake pressure is being modulated at the wheel where ABS was "inadvertently" triggered, and the build up of brake pressure is being delayed at the other front wheel. Both of which would equate to a greater stopping distance. Yes, ABS may be able to stop faster in some conditions, but that's compare to a locked wheel. In the case at hand, the wheel in question probably wasn't even close to locking before hitting the bump and triggering the ABS. I believe that modulating brake pressure at a wheel that doesn't really need it will only increase stopping distance.

How does pedal drop fit into the equation? I believe most newer 4 channel ABS schemes use accumulator chambers to temporarily store large amounts of brake fluid as the means to reduce brake pressure. These accumulators are used in both modulating the brakes and in "yaw-moment buildup delay". This accumulation of brake fluid would result in the pedal dropping without and increase in stopping power.

Since we are all theorizing here, let me throw out another theory. It seems that leading theory is that the wheel hitting the bump(s) is becoming unweight and slowing faster than the others. Thus "inadvertently" triggering ABS. Well what if that wheel is just following the irregular surface and thus travelling a greater distance. This could also possibly trigger "inadvertent" ABS engagement. Just a theory.


Also, have any of those who have experienced this problem had their brake pedal's reserve distance check? If it were less than the minimum requirement per the Owners Manual, you could very well bottom out when the ABS kicks in. Also of note, our left hand drive Imprezas have less pedal reserve than the right hand drive cars. The right hander's pedal has almost an 1" more travel before it would hit the floor.

*1. Bosch Automotive Handbook 4th Edition

My WRX also experiences a similar problem. When braking on rough surfaces, braking distance is greatly reduced VS a non ABS equiped car. I have no problem with the brake pedal bottoming out.

Under hard braking on a heavily traveled bumpy road close to my home, non ABS equiped cars normally experience wheel lockup, although just for an instant. These bumps don't greatly decrease the stopping distance since wheel lockup is instantaneous. In this case, the ABS system reacts very slowly in comparison to such a short duration wheel lockup and greatly reduces stopping distance. I believe in my case it is the wheels inability to remain in contact with the road that triggers the ABS, not increased distance traveled by the wheel.

Here's where I think the Subaru ABS system is flawed. If I only hit the bump with one wheel, as expected the ABS system is triggered. It feels as if the ABS system reduces braking force to the three other wheels, that can still apply normal braking forces, to match the amount of stopping power of the wheel that has lost contact with the pavement.

I live in Wisconsin where we drive regularly on snow. My first experience with ABS (on a rented grand am) scared the crap out of me. Having learned to drive on snow in non-ABS equpied cars I have found that if two wheels are on snow (say the right side wheels) and the left side wheels are on pavement, that you should just lock the wheels that are on snow and stop using the left hand side wheels that are on pavement. I learned when stopping for a red light that if the car has ABS, the left side wheels will only stop the car as fast as the right side wheels that are on snow are capable of. I believe that the Grand-Am ABS system was just a two channel system.

You ask, if this is true what is the purpose of 4 channel ABS system. Not having ever engineered an ABS system, I can only guess. I assume it is to allow the ABS system to reduce braking force on one wheel only. It seems as if the WRX ABS system is acting more as a 1 channel system, not a 4. If anyone has more indepth knowledge of the WRX ABS system, please post. Thanks

This problem definatly sounds like a
serious problem. SOA, just like other
automakers are in the business of
making money, so to replace all the
parts required for this fix is not cost
effective until they get pressure from
the government or multiple law suits.
Not to say SOA has done this, but they
are big business....

It would be best if everyone who has
had this happen to them, copy/paste
their thread entry to the following site:

NHTSA_Vehicle_Safety_Report (http://www.nhtsa.org/cars/problems/ivoq/default.htm)

If they receive enough complaints they
will pressure SOA to review/recall the
problem.

I know using the Govt for things like
this can take forever, but this is a
better first step for a fix. :)

Originally posted by Tsepic
Here's where I think the Subaru ABS system is flawed. If I only hit the bump with one wheel, as expected the ABS system is triggered. It feels as if the ABS system reduces braking force to the three other wheels, that can still apply normal braking forces, to match the amount of stopping power of the wheel that has lost contact with the pavement.

That's exactly what the "yaw-moment buildup delay" is suppose to do. It reduces braking force to the other wheel(s). Even if the brake pressure is only reduced at the other front wheel, it's likely to feel like its been reduced at all the other wheels since front brakes do a majority of the work. This feature is intentionally designed in to keep the car from pivoting around the front wheel that still has traction ("normal braking forces") when the other is on a slippery surface. Therefore, I would not say the flaw is that it reduces braking pressure, but that the ABS has been "inadvertently" triggered at a wheel that is not actually on a lower friction surface. If it wasn't for "yaw-moment buildup delay", most of the people complaining of this "problem" would instead be complaining about how dangerous it is that their car turns to the left or right when braking on asymmetrical surfaces (uneven traction/friction).

I also find it interesting that quite a few people feel we should bring this to the attention of the NHTSA. Well, I think they, and the Insurance Industry, are quite aware of the issues with ABS brakes. Go and read their web page www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/equipment/ABSBRAKES.html . Things such as the pedal suddenly dropping and increased stopping distances are mentioned there. I believe there was even talk in the Insurance Industry awhile back about getting rid of ABS discounts or even increasing rates for ABS equipped cars because of an increase in the number of rear enders they were involved in.

I'm not a big fan of ABS, but I've learned to live with it. In snowy conditions I do my best to keep it from kicking in. And when it does kick in, I either let off and reapply or just press down as hard as I can depending on the situation.

Now none of this is meant to say that what people are complaining about here is not an actual problem. It's just that "normal" ABS operation is considered problematic by many, including myself.

Originally posted by Scottie
Therefore, I would not say the flaw is that it reduces braking pressure, but that the ABS has been "inadvertently" triggered at a wheel that is not actually on a lower friction surface.
Very interesting stuff about this "yaw-moment buildup delay", that explains why the braking pressure would be reduced at both front wheels when one of them hits a bump. There's one thing in this theory that I still don't understand: From the descriptions I read here (I haven't observed the problem myself), it sounded like the reduced braking pressure persists long after the bump. Once the wheel that hit the bump gained traction again, shouldn't this be detected by the ABS, and braking pressure should be increased again?

My last car was a 1993 RX-7 Twin Turbo (gone and missed, buit old and decrepit). Mazda had a recall abotu an ABS problem that involved repalcing a hose in the ABS system. It was a 5 minute repair.

The probnlem manifested itself on my car by the brakes barely working in reverse! The cure of subaru may or may not be as simple.

One problem with the WRX is the horrid RE92 tires. I got into the ABS yesterday when I had no reson to expect it. The WRX braking distances are disgustingly long becuase these tires ahve no grip.

I belatedly bedded in my brakes today at 1,000 miles. It has made a hiuge diffeence in the brak preformance. I don;t know if it has any affect ont he anti-lock question.

I have 2002 WRX sedan i too noticed that the abs would come on after hitting short bumps in the road that would make my tire jump up, or on rough pavement it definatly increases the braking distace alittle and i'm not looking forward to the winter because of it

tried to duplicate this issue.
Was not able to do so. I don't ever want to go through anything like this. Anyway, the approach to this issue is to ensure that the media gets this information if SOA decides to ignore this problem. 2020 or any consumer affairs organization would be a good start. I did not buy my rex for me to die in it. Anyway, hope the problem is solved. Peace.

I haven't noticed anything scary with the ABS in 500 miles of driving my new WRX, but the ABS does seem a bit twitchy, especially on bumpy roads. My 99 RS never had the ABS kick in on dry asphalt but my WRX does kick in when I don't think it should. It seems to be a little on the sensitive side and I have owned a RS, Outback, Forester, and a WRX so the comment "that's just how ABS is suppose to work" does not apply :rolleyes:

I recommend that all you guys that are having problems with your ABS just pull your ABS fuse and drive without for awhile. I'm pulling mine as soon as it snows. I drove all winter with the Forester's ABS disconnected and I acutally liked it better.

Mike:D

There are VERY smooth RR tracks (the kind with the rubberized surround) about 50 feet from a traffic light. I didn't catch the green for the first time and when I put my brakes on, I felt the pedal chatter and it DID feel like it greatly increased braking distance.

I'm lucky there was NO car in front of me all the way to the light (I was in the lead of the traffic platoon).

Not very happy about it. It looks to me that ABS only helps on ice and rain. Snow doesn't allow "digging in" and bumps are downright scary.

JL

One automotive company has addressed the phenomenom of ABS not allowing the tire to dig into the ground, Nissan. On their Xterra, they proclaim in the sales brocure that the abs will not activate on snow and other appropriate surfaces to allow the tires to pile obstruction in front of them and to dig through to grippier substances.

-Jason

My ABS Post- March 25, 2001 (http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31283)

I posted this 9 days after I picked up my car (3/16). 4 days later (3/29) in the rain, I was unable to avoid hitting someone who turned in front of me before I passed.

Did this ABS issue contribute?.....I'll never know.........

ABS Post, June 7 (http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38451)

Another interesting thread on this topic.........

Originally posted by dug-e-fresh
My ABS Post- March 25, 2001 (http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31283)

I posted this 9 days after I picked up my car (3/16). 4 days later (3/29) in the rain, I was unable to avoid hitting someone who turned in front of me before I passed.

Did this ABS issue contribute?.....I'll never know.........

Interesting...

I was cut off by someone in a Honda. I hit the brakes and got into the anti-lock. Taht was when I decided the tires had to go.

Pepople tend to underestiamte the tires contribution to the performance and handling of the car. My RX-7 came with Yokaham A022's. In the rain, I had to go around corners slower than anything else including Metros. Byt he time I got to the Proxes T1-s, I had a secure tire and could outcorner everyone in the rain.

My wife was with me during that incident. I told her these tires go - tires are cheaper than sheet metal and human body parts. She agreed.

Maybe we need to complain to DOT, especially since you had an accident.

The RX-7 was rated as stopping from 60 in about 113'. The Subaru is closer to 140-150. Witht he Proxes, my car stops about the same as the RX-7.

If you want all weather tires, look around, particularly the Toyo's.

FargoRS,
That's interesting. My experience has been the opposite. The ABS seemed to kick in more readily on my RS than my WRX.

One possible reason for this could be tire/wheel weight. I was running the stock wheels with 205/50R16 tires on my '99 RS that weighed in at 36 lbs. On my WRX I've been running the combo of 16x7 Speedline Comp 2s with RE730s which weigh in at 44 lbs. The extra inertia of this heavier combo may help to keep the wheel rotating when it becomes unweighted by a bump during braking. I'll be able to test this theory shortly, as my winter wheel/tire combo for the WRX weighs in at 36 lbs. I'll let everyone know if this seems to make a difference.

FargoRS:

My RX-7 had real light wheels and a variety of tires over its life. The last set were 245-45/16 Proxes. The wheels weighed about 13 lbs (16x8). ABS rarely kicked in unless I jsut slammed the brake pedal in a panic stop. I could ususlally hold to pedal to the point of incipient lockup and not get into the bas resulting in shorter stopping distances.

Since I have only 70 miles on these tires, I will have to see if I cna do that.

BTW: it is important to bed in the brakes per the Subaru manual. My brakes became much better after I did that.

We just got hammered with snow in Fargo the other day, about 6 inches to a foot in some places. I just put Dunlop Sport 5000 Asyms on last Friday and I'm very pleased with them. However, ice still makes the ABS go crazy so I grabbed the manual, found the ABS solenoid fuse on the interior panel and pulled it yesterday. Much better! I find I can stop faster in powder and packed snow and I have a little more imput on ice. At least I can feel what is going on unlike the ABS trying to fight me. Don't get me wrong, I like ABS and it has saved my arse a few times and I'll definately re-enable it in the spring when it gets wet and sloshy. But driving on gravel, snow, and ice is better without. The down side is that bright little yellow ABS light bugs me ;) Might have to put some tape over it. I'm thinking about getting a stock Subaru switch and making a On/Off switch that will go next to the Fog and Cruise switch.

Lastly, the snow just makes me happy with my choice to get a WRX over any RWD performance car. Time to put the RWD cars in the garage and leave them till spring guys! This is a true all year all weather performance car. Also, I watched about a dozen FWD and RWD cars get stuck pulling into a parking lot yesterday, so I purposely drove over to the same spot and I couldn't get myself stuck in my WRX if I tried!!! Hahahaha

Mike :D

just an fyi here. my abs was triggering prematurely as well when hitting bumps w/ a light application of the brakes.

i got under the car and found out that the abs sensor was almost ready to fall off the driver's front hub. the single bolt that fastens the abs sensor bracket to the hub had backed out about 75%. this explained why the abs was triggering when hitting a bump (the sensor goes momentarily airborne and exceeds its sensing range and the ecu can't detect the wheel and thinks the wheel's locking up => abs activates).

i put some high temp loctite on the bolt and snugged'er back up. no abs problems anymore. this only happened on one side. i removed the other front hub's sensor bracket bolt and did the same fix... there is no evidence that FHI provided a locking feature on the bolt, thus, it vib'ed loose.

duckboy

I'll check my sensors when I get home and I'll let you know what I find.

Originally posted by duckboy
just and fyi here. my abs was triggering prematurely as well when hitting bumps w/ a light application of the brakes.

i got under the car and found out that the abs sensor was almost ready to fall off the driver's front hub. the single bolt that fastens the abs sensor bracket to the hub had backed out about 75%. this explained why the abs was triggering when hitting a bump (the sensor goes momentarily airborne and exceeds its sensing range and the ecu can't detect the wheel and thinks the wheel's locking up => abs activates).

i put some high temp loctite and the snugged'er back up. no abs problems anymore. this only happened on one side. i removed the other front hub's sensor bracker bolt and did the same fix...

duckboy :eek: Verrrrrry interesting!

Wow, finally a cause effect relationship to explain this, I've seen such symptoms on rare occasion, but not since a recent service, perhaps a similar thing was dealt with.

Nice to see somebody actually got a quantified fix for it!

All I can say if it does it again with my WRX I am pulling the fuse. It is too scarry and real! My wifes Legacy GT does not do it. I wonder if it has to do with the stiff springs etc. of the WRX

did you all find that you had a similar problem with your abs bracket falling off? has your abs premature triggering has gone away? let me know. i'd like to know if i should be expecting some serious might occur with my abs.

duckboy

I just gave it a quick look so far. It 'feels' tight. My Grand Prix Pontiac is burning coolant, so it's taking the WRX's spot in the garage right now for a tear-down. It's too cold/rainy to work on the Subie outside. But I should have the engine put back together next week, and I'll be able to take a closer look at the sensor.

I've got to take the car into the dealership tonight for driver's side window repair (third time) and I am going to talk about this specifically. I can replicate this at any time on one specific turn lane that has a deep manhole that is offset to the right side. No gravel, nothing. As you brake on it, the ABS DEFINETLY keeps going well after the manhole. It's about 20 feet before the line, and if I brake firmly (not panic) from 35, it will go on and continue all the way across the line. It's definetly something with one wheel abs working in a strange fashion. Foot falls to the floor, and abs continues long past where it should. If I stradle the manhole (practicaly have to drive on the curb, but still) I can make the same stop with 3 or more carlengths to spare before the line.

take care,
rob

well im glad im not the only one ... thank you i club for all your dedicated input. i experienced this braking problem many times. it would be a shame on soa not to do a thing about it. n i thought i was crazy n defective alone.

I've had the same thing exactly; last week I almost rear ended a guy on the freeway after braking over bumps and have almost rear ended cars at stop lights after braking over some bumps at least 3 times now.

This happens with RE92s and 17" S-02s on the car.

I reported it to SOA (not knowing about this thread) and they recommended I take the car to the dealer, well of course the car got the all clear at the dealership (i know my brakes are good!)

I called SOA back and am awaiting a call from the person handling my case, with the knowledge of this thread and the exact same scenario happening to others I'll see what we can get SOA to do.

It's funny because this thread is such a revelation to me, how amazing it is that we all have the same story to tell.

I am not alone!

I'll keep all informed as things progress (if I can get SOA to do something.)

- Richard.

I still haven't been able to duplicate the problem, though I recall this very same thing that you all describe happening in my Legacy GT, with the stock tires. I was also (not that I am suggesting that anyone else might have been) coming up to the stop and stopped cars too hot (fast, that is).

I got on the brakes, and hit a frost heave. The car did indeed take longer to stop. Of course, when I installed the DMS/P1/Dunlop 9000 combo, I never again experienced the problem on that car, nor on my WRX with the same suspension package.

I wonder if putting on the DMS immediately, meant that my ABS sensor got tightened to spec, in light of another member's discovery about his ABS bracket? Or if it's just a car to car thing?

Kevin

Originally posted by Bugsie1
I've had the same thing exactly; last week I almost rear ended a guy on the freeway after braking over bumps and have almost rear ended cars at stop lights after braking over some bumps at least 3 times now.

This happens with RE92s and 17" S-02s on the car.

I reported it to SOA (not knowing about this thread) and they recommended I take the car to the dealer, well of course the car got the all clear at the dealership (i know my brakes are good!)

I called SOA back and am awaiting a call from the person handling my case, with the knowledge of this thread and the exact same scenario happening to others I'll see what we can get SOA to do.

It's funny because this thread is such a revelation to me, how amazing it is that we all have the same story to tell.

I am not alone!

I'll keep all informed as things progress (if I can get SOA to do something.)

- Richard.

Nope, you are not alone. My car is at the dealership today to have the interior door panel replaced (power window problem) and I asked the mechanic to just check it out. I described the situation, and he seems competent and friendly enough. He said he would try and duplicate it.

On another note, I called SOA to discuss the problem with me and promptly got the brushoff. They asked me to describe the problem in detail and told me "someone will be calling you very shortly about this." Well, they didn't.

Could you give me a contact number for the person you spoke to? Perhaps if I report it to the same person you did, they might take both of us a little more seriously.

The person dealing with my case is "Karen" (that's all I know.)
My case number is 351927

I encourage everyone who has had this problem to call SOA (1-800-SUBARU3) and report it. Get a case number and log it here in the thread.

Also fill in the form at NHTSA;

http://www.nhtsa.org/cars/problems/ivoq/default.htm

then at least they'll notify SOA and it'll be taken more seriously.

- Richard.

I got the car back from the dealership, and they were unable to replicate the problem. The tech acknowledged on the form, however, that the problem seems specific enough that perhaps a testdrive with a tech should be scheduled. I'm very pleased they are at least willing to try and believe me.

Just on a somewhat unrelated note:

My 99 outback was braking very poorly. In fact, it was barely braking at all. The pedal would touch the firewall and the car would slow down. I could not engage abs on dry or wet roads although it would activate on gravel. I had horrible fade and essentially could complete one 80mph stop within normal distances - any braking after that was non-existant.

Took it to the dealer 3 times, all 3 times they could not reproduce the problem or follow my instructions. They did however leave some scratches on the car and grease on the seats.

They didn't even bleed the brake system.

I finally fixed the issue myself by replacing the front rotors & pads w/ aftermarket and bleeding the brakes with ATE Super Blue fluid. My brakes still aren't as good as I would like, but they do work. I am jealous of those of you who have dealers who care about customer safety and service.

Originally posted by remarcable
Just on a somewhat unrelated note:

My 99 outback was braking very poorly. In fact, it was barely braking at all. The pedal would touch the firewall and the car would slow down. I could not engage abs on dry or wet roads although it would activate on gravel. I had horrible fade and essentially could complete one 80mph stop within normal distances - any braking after that was non-existant.

Took it to the dealer 3 times, all 3 times they could not reproduce the problem or follow my instructions. They did however leave some scratches on the car and grease on the seats.

They didn't even bleed the brake system.

I finally fixed the issue myself by replacing the front rotors & pads w/ aftermarket and bleeding the brakes with ATE Super Blue fluid. My brakes still aren't as good as I would like, but they do work. I am jealous of those of you who have dealers who care about customer safety and service.

You can always call subaru and tell them taht you will file a report with the government.

Back in 1967 (I am probably the oldest WRX driver in the US) I had a Cougar that had out of round wheels. I knew they were out of round because when I put michelin X's on it they weren't round and the tire dealer checked. After a big hassle, I got to see the Mercury factory rep. He looked at it, said "Micehlin tires. Your tires are bad. and started to walk away. I said, "Guess I'll call my lawyer". I got new whells.

Jan

A little update. SOA has been in contact with me multiple times over the past few weeks. They are going to have a regional tech rep meet me, and take a ride in the car with me driving. As you may or may not know, I can replicate this braking problem pretty much at will. They want to log the actions of the ABS computer when this happens, which is by far the most direct acknowledgement of a potential issue. I was told that none of the other owners contacted about this could replicate it on a road near the dealership or were willing to help. Cmon guys, I'm disappointed! Anyway, if anyone else can replicate this, and can do so consistently _on the stock rims and tires with stock suspension_ please email:
shopf@subaru.com (Susan Hopf)

She is handling my case, but is also working with some member of their management staff who is apparently trying to track down this exact problem. Be nice, she has been extremely helpful and patient. They have not once claimed that the problem did not exist, even when a local tech couldn't replicate it when he was driving.
take care,
rob says, "Fight the power? Hell, we ARE the power."

Good job man. Keep us posted!
Strangely enough I haven't had the problem occur in a month or so. Of course, I jinxed myself now. :)

Jeff C.

Great news!

I have plenty of ABS driving experience to know that the WRX pedal just plain feels WRONG during ABS'ing. I was on asphalt ripples on a downhill approach to a red light with cars under it. It was on a dry sunny day last week. I hit the brakes from 35mph as the tires hit the ripples. I was startled. It felt like a brake line let go!!! You know-pedal turns to sponge. The car did not appear to be slowing down!!! I pumped the pedal, got out of ABS and gently stopped it with my heart in my throat. I will try some ABS'ing in the dirt around my area to see if I can duplicate it. If the pedal does go soft, there IS a BIG problem. My 92 Legacy NEVER did this in rain, snow, dirt, leaves, or bumps. The ABS in that car just tickled my foot not my MIND. My 2001 Legacy never plays mean ABS tricks either.:confused:

LETS DUPLICATE THIS FOR A SERVICE DEPARTMENT. Where's Ralph Nader these days?

Originally posted by cygnusz
I have plenty of ABS driving experience to know that the WRX pedal just plain feels WRONG during ABS'ing. I was on asphalt ripples on a downhill approach to a red light with cars under it. It was on a dry sunny day last week. I hit the brakes from 35mph as the tires hit the ripples. I was startled. It felt like a brake line let go!!! You know-pedal turns to sponge. The car did not appear to be slowing down!!! I pumped the pedal, got out of ABS and gently stopped it with my heart in my throat. I will try some ABS'ing in the dirt around my area to see if I can duplicate it. If the pedal does go soft, there IS a BIG problem. My 92 Legacy NEVER did this in rain, snow, dirt, leaves, or bumps. The ABS in that car just tickled my foot not my MIND. My 2001 Legacy never plays mean ABS tricks either.:confused:

LETS DUPLICATE THIS FOR A SERVICE DEPARTMENT. Where's Ralph Nader these days?

I read in EVO magazien (British) that the Posche 911 does the same kind of trick with ABS when the front starts bobbing up and down.

FWIW, I had a similar experience on a bomupy surface when Iw as cut off by soem ignoramous. The next thing I did was get rid of the crap RE-92's and put on Toyo Proxxes T1-s (225-50/16). Now the brakes behave normally. Besides thtaq, the car does not lean antything like it used to. Understear has all but disappeared.

I thinkt he sidewalls of the RE-92's are too soft and the flex, loading and unloading the tires and suspension and giving erroneous readings to the ABS.

I would like to hear what experiences other people ahve had, getting rid of the crap OEM tires. (Are you listening, Subaru? You don't need a Ford/Firestone problem).

The next thing I did was get rid of the crap RE-92's and put on Toyo Proxxes T1-s (225-50/16). Now the brakes behave normally.

The brakes were probably behaving normally on the RE92's, you just didn't have as much traction.

Glenn

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


The brakes were probably behaving normally on the RE92's, you just didn't have as much traction.

Glenn

When I got my 93 RX-7, it came with Yokohama A022A's. Int he damp I couldn't go aroudn a corner any faster than an explorerer. In the raan, it was worse. As soon as I went to Dunlop SP-8000's,the car became drivable int he rain. As I went throught Bridgestone S02's, Sp9000's and the Proxxes (in 8 years and 135,000 miles you get to samplle a lot of tires) the car got progressively better.

Now, I will tell you again, the WRX is a different car onthe Proxxes than it is on the RE-92's. I do not get lockup any sooner than the RX-7. Braking distances are much, much shorter. There is 1/3rd the lean in corners.

I wish some one else would change their tires and convince the rest of you guys (and gals).

I see many of you people spending tons of money on modifications and zilch on tires because they aren't sexy. Yet, they represent the biggest and cheapest perfomance change that you can make. Brembo brakes won't make the car stop any quicker on stock tires.

The tires that come on the car are great for giving demo drives, when you aren't pushing the car. They are soft, smooth, quiet. The Proxxes are hard, not very noisy, and stick liek glue.

I agree that the re92's are poor performing tires, however the WRX ABS system seems to have some anomalies when the brakes are initially applied on a bumpy surface. They seem to work fine if they are applied before hitting bumps. I have been able to easily repeat this braking problem.

No RE92s=no brake issues for me. Once, I thought that I had found the perfect spot to duplicate this issue:

Downhill exit ramp (straight) with a big a** hump about midway down it. On a clear night with no traffic behind (or in front of) me, I tried it. I stood on the brakes as hard as I could just before hitting the hump. The ABS went off, every light (almost) on the dash came on, and the car stopped so fast that I stalled it (oops!). Started it back up, and drove off. No pedal to the floor, no nothing. I should note that I was on 17" P1s with Dunlop 9000s.

I'm sure that some people have defective setups. In a run of thousands of cars, this will indeed happen. And no, I don't think that Subaru has a Firestone/Explorer situation on their hands. The RE92 is a fine tire, driven as Joe or Joan Q. Public would drive it. It's only in the hands of an enthusiast driver that its inadequacies become apparent.

Good luck,

Kevin

Originally posted by Glenn Wallace


The brakes were probably behaving normally on the RE92's, you just didn't have as much traction.

Glenn

Glenn:

That is precisely my point! The RE-92s do not have the traction that a decent tire has. Poorer traction means that the wheels lock sooner, the bas comes on sooner.

I ahve another suspician that I have no way to verify: the extreme flexing of the sidewalls on the RE-92's may make one wheel start locking up, the ABS detects the difference in rotation between the two wheels and activates.

BTW< if you look at road tests of the RX, you will see that braking distances really, really suck.

My daughter's signifigant other has a new civic and hates the tires ebcuase of greasyness in the rain. The manufactuerers of most cars put on terrible tires.

My daughter lives in Boston. She just bought a new Imprese Ouback Sport. It has RE-92's. I think she should replace them

Originally posted by superspd8
[B]

Glenn:

That is precisely my point! The RE-92s do not have the traction that a decent tire has. Poorer traction means that the wheels lock sooner, the bas comes on sooner.


that may be true, but theres something else up with the abs on the new age impreza.. I've had these same problems with abs coming on under non-normal conditions, and the worst part is that 1/2 second of no brakes at all before the abs does anything.. its really some scary S*** .. I have never had any experience in other abs-equipped cars. the rate of oscillation in the subaru brakes is really low also, leading me to beleive that the whole system is cheaply built. I'm seriously considering putting an ABS kill switch in. Tires arent really the primary issue here, since the activation happens on things like pothole and stuff like that, although you are right that a better tire will lock up less hence less abs under hard braking.

GTguy, find a bit pothole like a recessed manhole cover or drain and hit the brakes hard as one wheel is crossing the hole.. i think holes act differently than humps.

Originally posted by gtguy
Downhill exit ramp (straight) with a big a** hump about midway down it. On a clear night with no traffic behind (or in front of) me, I tried it. I stood on the brakes as hard as I could just before hitting the hump. The ABS went off, every light (almost) on the dash came on, and the car stopped so fast that I stalled it (oops!). Started it back up, and drove off. No pedal to the floor, no nothing. I should note that I was on 17" P1s with Dunlop 9000s.
[/B]

I tried holes at first. We conveniently had (they've since been fixed) a pair of about 5-6" deep potholes in the alley that I first tried the test with. Again, nothing.

Kevin

Ok...This thread is too long for me to read right now..so if my response is redundant, then my apologies.;)

Though Subaru has a very impressive braking system (independent sensors), they still need to do some work on it.

I have driven so many different types of vehicles with ABS, even those that don't have independent sensors and the braking system does not perform like Subaru's. I don't know about Legacy Outbacks, but I've observed that the Impreza lineup has this serious problem, which of course includes the WRX!

Now, I've been scared various times because of the braking system and all of the time it has been while driving normal (no speeding, aggressive corners, etc.)

The stock tires may have influence on the poor performance, but better tires will not fix the problem.

I don't know if changing the brake lines help, or it's the sensors itself, but I strongly feel that Subaru is opening the doors to a major lawsuit if they don't resolve this immediately!

Blaming Tires for an ABS problem is fundamentally wrong. Although tires can cause the effectiveness of the braking to go up or down. They SHOULDN'T effect the proper operation of the ABS. ABS by design is supposed to adapt to changes in the traction situation. If I'm running on 4 space-saver spares, I expect the ABS to follow the same principals of operation that it would with a set of racing slicks on hot asphalt. The variables are different, the braking distance will be different, but it's the ABS system's job to adapt to the changes in traction. Better tires may just mean that it will take a more extreme situation to cause the malfunction. I personally would rather it mess up when I'm driving like my grandmother, than when I'm thinking I'm Mario Andretti. I'm not defending the RE-92's, I'm just saying that if they system was working properly, other than overall performance, tires should not effect wether the system works properly or not.

Consider a situation where a tire is bouncing on one side fo the car and not the other. Ths would give signs of a wheel locking, so the brake system eases up. Then, the other side bounces and the ABS eases up on that.

I agree, that tires shouldn't make a difference, but vehicle dynamics are complex and, of course, they can.

I decided the RE-92's had to go becuase they kept lockign up and going into the ABS. The RE-92'sa have the softest sidewalls of any tire I ahve ever driven on. I knew the WRX had cood traction with the AWD. I jsut thought the lean in the ocrners was softness for a rallye setup as against the race track set up the the Twin Turbo RX-7. I was wrong. More than half the lean in the WRX is the tires.

As I noted before, my wife noticed the difference in the tires the first time she rode in it.

The only tway we can really get a satisfactory answer is from Subaru - and they do it it to us. I would still like the opinions of people who went to other tires.

Jan

I'm not saying that the ABS wouldn't activate erroneously because of cruddy bouncing tires. In fact, if you go to the beginning of this thread, I worked out some scenerios just like that. :)

I AM saying that after the bounce is done, and conditions are normal, that the system should return control to the driver a heck of a lot faster than the 2-3 seconds I've experienced, and without having to release and re-apply the brakes. AND that although higher quality tires may mask the problem, they're not a solution.

Further research into the problem with different tires equipped would be interesting. And I'm all for any kind of research anybody cares to perform.

I'm just tired of hearing the RE-92 get blamed for everything from dim headlights to bad breath. It's just a tire and there's a lot worse out there. Sure they suck for those of us that want to ride the ragged edge, but there's folks outh there that'll never make a tire squawk. But that doesn't mean they should be denied brakes when they hit uneven pavement. Ever driven a car with those 80,000 mile treadwear tires that provide a 'smooth ride'? Those are really horrible. And it would be rediculus to think Subaru didn't take into account that somebody somewhere that didn't know any better might put a set of those on their vehicle. I'll bet most of you are within shouting distance of somebody who loves for their car to ride like a hovercraft.

...Thank you, drive through.....

Too right, we're talking about a serious problem here, let's not have it turn into another RE-92 bashing session.

RE-92s may well suck on a performance car like the WRX but that's no excuse for the scary-ass issues myself and others are having here with their ABS.

My Regional Service Rep test drives my car on Monday, we'll see what he thinks (if I can get the damn thing to behave badly on demand)

- Richard.

Wow, I live in Wisconsin and have been driving in winter conditions for almost 20 years, have been to driving school at Bondurant, been auto-xing/ice racing for over 10 years. We had our first snowfall today (very very late for snow, by this time last year we had 50 inches on the ground), I was really looking forward to driving the WRX in the snow. I have equiped the car with Haaka Q's on factory rims in a the same size as the RE92's.

After driving in the snow, it has belcome obvious that the WRX has a MAJOR flaw with the ABS system. With the ABS fuse removed, I can literally stop the car in 10 times less distance than with the ABS on.

The WRS HAS a flawed ABS system period!

Phil: Can you reproduce the problem on your car? If you can, I wouldn't mind bringing my car for a comparison test, you seem to be the only one posting about it from my area. I'm really curious if this affects all cars. I haven't experienced it so far, but it sounds like once could be too much if it happens at the wrong moment. It would also help figuring out if this is "broken by design", or a flaw that only a few cars have.

If I can remember what I read about ABS correctly, ABS does not shorten your stopping distances as much as it allows you have control and maintain some steerability of the car in an emergency hard braking situation. 99% sure this was in the owner's manual for my RS. I'll check tomorrow for the page numbers. FYI:) :)

Great. We're not asking ABS to give us shorter stopping distance than non-ABS. We're asking for ABS that doesn't lengthen stopping distances by 100-300%!! We aren't idiots...we know how ABS is SUPPOSED to work. This system is flawed.

Can you tell me where the ABS fuse is on a WRX?

Thanks

I concede that there is a flaw i9n the ABS.

I have a quick and serious question. My daughter has a 2002 Impreza Outback sport. Does it have the same ABS as the WRX? She lives in Boston - snow will be a problem for her.

In order of urgency, I think we have to:

1. We must get Subaru Tech involved immedietly. Some of you are doing that with manufacturer's reps.

2. We must find out if this is all cars (design failure) or some cars (build failure).

3. We need to know if everyone whould disable the ABS by pulling the fuse.

4. Decide if we need to go the the NHTSA - this will depend on Subaru's response.

Jan

I did a search on Subaru ABS failure and came accross these links:

An article about Temporary brake failure caused by water int he fluid. The article says that in some cases, the pedal may actually go to the floor - as some of you have maintained. Could contamianted fluid have been put in some of our cars?

Contaminated brake fluid can boil as low as 150 degrees.

Perhaps thsoe fo you that have had this happen should repalce the fluid - it is cheaper than an accident.

http://www.autospeed.com/A_0781/page1.html

1996 Legacy: http://home.sprynet.com/~mklphoto/1996/96_Legacy.htm

Car & Driver pre-US verwsion sampling of a WRX wagon with Expedia tires.

http://caranddriver.radicalmedia.com/member/curIssue/dec_95/impreza/

Good Brake information in general:

http://www.autotruck.net/library/brakes/breaks1.asp

MMisc. infor from England:

http://www.mudd90.freeserve.co.uk/technicalstuff3.htm

This link disappeared but....

BACKFIRE !! - May 2001
... One person in a slightly modified Subaru WRX told me he was "defecating bricks ... the
typical show car fare, brake failure, or something of that sort. ...
www.northernthunder.com/backfire0501.html - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

superspd8:

Though your info was appreciated...but would not do any good...I speak for myself, cause I don't know anyone else's situation.

I put CF pads on front and back (back mixed w/semi-metallic), I also have steel braided brake lines, changed the fluid to performance fluid and the ABS still sux.

Actually, yesterday I took the opportunity to slam on the brakes with no one behind me on a DRY road. Well, let's just say that luckily there wasn't a car in front of me. I was doing 40-45MPH, brakes were rumbling as if it wasn't sticking to the discs; plus my pedal was on the floor.

I'd say tires 15%, ABS 85% flaw!!!

Originally posted by ezatnova
Great. We're not asking ABS to give us shorter stopping distance than non-ABS. We're asking for ABS that doesn't lengthen stopping distances by 100-300%!! We aren't idiots...we know how ABS is SUPPOSED to work. This system is flawed.

Actually, in the July 1997 issue of Road & Track, the ABS system on a Mercedes-Benz S600 Coupe was shown to increase stopping distance by about 100% on ice (220 feet vs 134 feet from 20 mph) when compared to the same car without ABS. There was no mention of that system being flawed or malfunctioning. Also, as I posted earlier, the NHTSA's web site also mentions increased stopping distances as being a part of normal ABS operation. I believe some of those who have posted here may very well have problems with their ABS, but I don't think increased stopping distances alone mean the system is flawed.

I'm in the same situation as gtguy. I have not been able to trigger this situation on my WRX, but on my '99 2.5 RS coupe the ABS kicked in on a regular basis in bumpy situations.

BigElm:

It is collecting this information that can help pinpoint the problem.

Having done track time with my now departed RX7, I would make a point of staying out of the ABS becuase it lenghens stopping distances. I do the same with any car I drive. The only excpetion is if someone cuts me off, I'll just slam on the brakes becuase I can't pre-paln where to apply the brakes.

Our Acuras get much longer stopping distances on ice.

BTW, I did the search to see if this problem is being reported outside of this web site.

I also look like we need Subaru attention. If we don;t get it, then we shoudl talk to the NHTSA.

Brake failure is not my idea for fun.

This weekend, I will take my car out on some deserted roads and try the ABS.

Jan

I seriously feel we need to contact SOA about this. I knew I should've said something when I was still under warranty. But if we do this together, SOA would look into this matter much quicker.
I know they should have gotten some complaints but it hasn't made a dent.

We together can make the dent. Anyone know, besides the website, how to make a complaint without SOA horsing us around? Maybe someone directly in SOA that can respond to this.

I'd figure we give them an opportunity before talking to NHTSA.

BigElm:

There is a phone number in the car manual to call. It is requried by law. I suggest that the people with the worst problems call and refer them to this web site.

They should also say that they will contact the NHTSA if nothing is done. Subaru won't want that.


I would call, but I haven't had the problem (will test this weekend) so I can:t offer an example.

Jan

I went to the Subaru web site www.subaru.com tot he contact us section. I sent a note telling about the ABS, my changing to the Proxxes. I also told them to come here and look and said that people are talking about going to the NHTSA.

Do your part and contact them. Let us see what happens.

Jan

I didn't know what you guys were talking about until yesterday. I was doing about 30 and pressed the brakes coming into a stop about 20 feet out. There was some construction and the street surface dropped a couple of inches.

That's when I crapped my pants. I have felt ABS activate before, but this was not the same thing. I did not hear the ABS "rumble". My car just kept going stopping just beyond the end of the cross walk. I am just glad there weren't pedestrians or other cars in front of me. :mad:

Originally posted by ryball
I didn't know what you guys were talking about until yesterday. I was doing about 30 and pressed the brakes coming into a stop about 20 feet out. There was some construction and the street surface dropped a couple of inches.

That's when I crapped my pants. I have felt ABS activate before, but this was not the same thing. I did not hear the ABS "rumble". My car just kept going stopping just beyond the end of the cross walk. I am just glad there weren't pedestrians or other cars in front of me. :mad:

Post this note on the Subaru web site! We have to let Subaru know this ro we can't complain that they are doing nothing.

Also, I would think you ned to release and hit the brakes again to get the ABS to function correctly.

I will find a similar test spot this weekend.

There was a recall on my RX7 twin turbo becuase the same thing would happen, but only in reverse. The cure was an $8 hose and 15 mintues labor.

Jan

Hey All,

I've recently experienced some brake problems with my car. It first started (around 2 wks. agoin )when there was about 2-3 inches of snow on the ground. Driving around 20-25mph, I pressed on the brakes and it seemed to fall to the floor and a grinding feeling through the brake pedal. I tried this a few times in the snow and I got the same effect. I tried pressing the brake slowly and it seemed okay. Needless to say, I drove slowly in the snow because of this.

But then yesterday and today, on the same turn, I took a right turn going maybe 20 mph, and pressed the brake like usual. There was a very little depression (some metal cover on the road) and again, the brakes fell to the floor with a grinding feeling and "springy" noise.

I haven't read through all the messages in the thread, but it seems like it is a problem that should be addressed.

-danny-

Since it seems some of you have had trouble following the link I provided to the NHTSA web page on ABS brakes, here are some out takes.

>>
Will I notice anything when the ABS is working?

In many vehicles, drivers may experience a rapid pulsation of the brake pedal--almost as if the brakes are pushing back at you. Sometimes the pedal could suddenly drop. Also, the valves in the ABS controller may make a noise that sounds like grinding or buzzing. In some cars you may feel a slight vibration--this means the ABS is working. It is important NOT to take your foot off the brake pedal when you hear noise or feel pulsations, but instead continue to apply firm pressure.
<<

>>
Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without?

ABS is designed to help the driver maintain control of the vehicle during emergency braking situations, not make the car stop more quickly. ABS may shorten stopping distances on wet or slippery roads and many systems will shorten stopping distances on dry roads. On very soft surfaces, such as loose gravel or unpacked snow, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances. In wet or slippery conditions, you should still make sure you drive carefully, always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of you, and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions.

So I guess when the NHTSA gets all our reports of grinding noise, the pedal suddenly dropping, and increased stopping distances, they'll be on Subaru like stink on .......:devil: :devil:

Here's that link again for those who didn't catch it the first time.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/equipment/ABSBRAKES.html

Like I said before, I believe some of you have legitimate problems with your brakes, but others are simply misinterpretting normal ABS traits as symptoms and jumping on the bandwagon. This is how forum myth gets started.:mad:

Well the way the NHTSA describes it, it kinda seems like the ABS are working properly. So how do I shut them off? I'd rather go without ABS if that's how they're supposed to work.

BTW - there are no ABS brakes on race cars. They need control and quick stopping too!

Umm, actually, no, the ABS system is NOT performing as it's supposed to and it's NOT performing like the NHTSA link said it should. The above post tried to manipulate what they were saying in the red highlighting... in fact the WHOLE SENTENCE should be highlighted, like this " ON VERY SOFT SURFACES SUCH AS LOOSE GRAVEL, OR UNPACKED SNOW, an ABS system may actually lengthen stopping distances
No kidding ABS sucks in the ice and snow...the wheels all instantly lock and that fools the ABS to no end (the computer can think the car is stationary on some cars). That isn't the problem that those of us who are concerened are having. Unfortunately, there's been too many posts lately of people saying things like "Yeah, my ABS is broken too! It makes noises!" or "Mine drops to the floor and vibrates too!" Great...so you're saying yours is functioning fine. Most ABS systems have those characteristics and anyone who knows anything about ABS cars knows that. The problem is, when on a DRY, PAVED surface with small bumps or unevenness, the ABS performs differently then when it properly engages on a smoother surface, and braking is almost completely eliminated.
This thread is beggining to sound like a broken record...but people don't read all the posts from the beginning of the thread to learn what the real problem and concern is.

thanks ezatnova, I was about to try and clarify that also. Its not about normal ABS being good or bad, Its about drifting towards the car in front with your foot down to the firewall and NO braking whatsoever before the abs gets happy with itself.

-mb

Here's what was explained and demonstrated to me years ago at a driving school at Summit point raceway. The cars used were old Caprice cop cars with ABS that could be disengaged. If you hit a bump while ABS is engaged you will lose braking power for a fraction of a second. It WILL seem like forever. ABS does increase braking distance over properly executed threshold braking. But, it does a better job than humanly possible on wet slick surfaces at allowing you to control and steer around a potentional problem. All the above issues were demonstrated to us and then experienced by us in driving labs. The best advice at the time was to put a switch in-line with the ABS system to allow you to disable it if you so desired. This experience was the main reason I bought my 97 NEON ACR without ABS. It's all a tradeoff and the driver needs to be aware of his and his vehicles limitations.

That's exactly right, ezatnova. If you lose the brakes when braking over bumpy surfaces, you have a major problem. I think that many posters are trying to clarify, and understand normal ABS behavior vs. faulty ABS behavior.

Have people checked their ABS sensors. I recall one poster commenting that his was loose.

Kevin

i'm not gonna try to claim that my experience was what you guys are talking about because i was on about 1.5 inches of snow, but i had an extremely disconcerting experience with my abs.

the scenario:
my driveway is a very substantial hill. the other nite, we got a little bit of snow. i was slowly progressing down my driveway, riding the brakes gently. when i went to make a gentle turn (still on the driveway) i completely lost my traction and started sliding sideways. only by dramatically compensating and stalling the car (e-brake alone would have spun me out - i needed all four wheels locked to stay straight) was i able to stop - about 10 feet before the end of the driveway.
#1) i know how to drive in the snow - i've been driving 2 different explorers down this driveway for five years - no problems like this.
#2) any ideas on how this could have been better handled? this was my best spur-of-the-moment solution not having ever had to deal with such a sudden and complete loss of traction. i know that i'm a good driver, but i'm not above listening to others' ideas for dealing with this kind of situation.
#3) i'm on stock rims and re92s. i'm probably going to get 17" p1s or p7s in the spring. any recommendations for better rubber?

thanks

Several people have posted that it is normal for an ABS system to increase stopping distance, especially on snow. I agree to a point. Here's a summary of what I've encountered and some other thoughts.

1. I have encountered the ABS reaction many times under braking on dry pavement. Vehicles without antilock brakes do monentarily experience wheel lock in this same section however the wheel lock recovers much faster than the Subaru ABS system.

2. I have driven other vehicles with antilock braking systems for years, none have had the problems over bumps and snow that the WRX has.

3. From my previous post, with ABS off, in snow the WRX can stop in 10 times less distance than with the ABS fuse in. For everyone who thinks this is normal, why don't other vehicles with ABS that I own respond in a similar fashion? Hmmm.

4. Since I don't know exactly the engineering behind ABS systems here is a question:

Does the caliper piston area (more volume hence more time a valve must be open to reduce pressue) play a roll on how the ABS computer reacts to lockup? i.e. if a 4 pot front/ 2 pot rear ABS computer were to be placed on a car with 2pot front/1 pot rear would the ABS system react to harshly? Could this be a production line issue??

P.S. I have reported this to the NHTSA. They only react if they get many complaints.

New Blue, I think your problem is unrelated to the faults we are talking about. However, I will say that when I took mine out tonight to learn how it handles in the snow, I had exactly what you are talking about happen to me. I slid sideways until built up, plowed snow stopped me from hitting the curb directly. I was only doing a max of 10 mph since the road was bad and was making a left. I felt it start to understeer towards the curb so I nailed the brakes and the abs went ape but nothing much happened, just slid sideways then. There wasn't enough time or room to work the throttle to try and whip the back around. Anyway, it was a bit disconcerting since I lost control dispite driving resposibly.

I have been reading with great interest the posts here as I have a WRX on order for delivery in March.

My question is simple: if some of you are experiencing this ABS problem and extrapolating this to the entire population of WRX owners, I would expect there to be a ton of complaints at the NHTSA site. My last check showed exactly one complaint.

Perhaps the individuals that have experienced this should submit a formal complaint to the NHTSA so that SOA will start seeing a trend and perhaps will light a fire under them.

Second question: Is this ABS problem specific to sedans, wagons or both? WRX or all Imprezas?

V

Originally posted by ezatnova
New Blue, I think your problem is unrelated to the faults we are talking about.
i realize that - it was, however, incredibly disconcerting to find that the ABS almost completely eliminates braking power. in every other ABS car i've driven, even when the ABS is activated, the car still has some braking power. when the brakes are to the floor, and the wheels are still rolling like nothing's happening, that's what i call a design flaw.

However, I will say that when I took mine out tonight to learn how it handles in the snow, I had exactly what you are talking about happen to me. I slid sideways until built up, plowed snow stopped me from hitting the curb directly. I was only doing a max of 10 mph since the road was bad and was making a left. I felt it start to understeer towards the curb so I nailed the brakes and the abs went ape but nothing much happened, just slid sideways then. There wasn't enough time or room to work the throttle to try and whip the back around. Anyway, it was a bit disconcerting since I lost control dispite driving resposibly.

like i said - the only way i could figure to brake with all four tires was to stall the car (threw it in either first or second gear and stomped the brakes and yanked e-brake. wow - that sounds violent). i wish i hadn't had to do that to the engine/transmission. i forgot to mention that there was a plow which came by about 5 seconds after i stopped, which was why i was even more upset. had i not reacted the way i did, i would have been toast. love my car, but boy was i scared.

Originally posted by vleeco
I have been reading with great interest the posts here as I have a WRX on order for delivery in March.

My question is simple: if some of you are experiencing this ABS problem and extrapolating this to the entire population of WRX owners, I would expect there to be a ton of complaints at the NHTSA site. My last check showed exactly one complaint.

Perhaps the individuals that have experienced this should submit a formal complaint to the NHTSA so that SOA will start seeing a trend and perhaps will light a fire under them.

Second question: Is this ABS problem specific to sedans, wagons or both? WRX or all Imprezas?

V

were i to have experienced this with my new wrx and not read this, i would have no idea that NHTSA even existed. now that i read this ENTIRE thread (took about an hour for anyone interested) i will try to reproduce it and give my info to zoomer. my reason for posting this is to maybe give insight to the expectation of more complaints. just a thought.

I feel really weirded out by the WRX brakes. Only had the pedal go to the floor as yall are describing once but even when the abs kicks in I still feel uneasy as it is a feeling of no other abs car Ive been in before. It almost seems as if it doesnt do a damn thing

I live in Northern Virginia. We ahd a whopping 1 1/2" of snow yesterday. Because I have Proxxes T1-S on the WRX, I took the Acura CL coupe to the supermarket. THis is our third TL/CL and they all behave the same way except that the CL is much more of a drivers car.

The CL has Michelin MX something-or-other PLUS tires, which are all an improvement over the non-PLUS version. It also has traction control.

I tried a few hard braking manuevers. If I slammed on the brakes, the pedal went way down, the ABS kicked in and braking distance went way, way up.

When I did not depress the bedal as hard, I kept mostly out of the ABS and the car stopped in a commendably short distance.

On slick surfaces, with the TL sedan the braking virtually disappeared.

When I drove my RX-7 on the race track, I always kept out of the ABS. How well did that work? Well, my intructors tended to step on the brakes while I was still ahrd on the gas. I was abe to outbrake an experienced rally driver in a Porsche 968.

I always looked at abs as a last resort thing or if you hit a slick surface unexpectedly, or if you were braking in a spot where one side was on one typ of surface and the other on a different type.

Obviously a loose sensor is a defect. Obviously RE-92 tires lessen brake efficiency. Think not? Look at the disgusting stopping distances of a stock WRX: 140 or so feet from 60. Acceptable distances are like the RX-7: about 110-115'.

So, go out, learn your car. Learn that you can stop more quickly if you stay out of the ABS. Let the ABS save you tuchas if you hit an unexpectedly slick spot.

Jan

Aaaaarggh!!

Would you guys stop and read what is going on here, I don't need another lesson in ABS. I know ABS thank you, I know if I didn't have ABS it wouldn't happen but that doesn't resolve the issue.

We are discussing problems with our WRX's ABS systems here, unless you have something constructive to say stop filling this thread with a pointless discussion about the merits of ABS vs. a non-ABS car.

I've tested my stock WRX... on a dry flat surface it stops 60-0 in 120ft. On random bumpy surfaces it does not want to stop! That's what's wrong.

This issue has happened to me in normal braking and emergency braking a number of times, I tried countless times to find somewhere safe to demo it; this morning I found a spot near my house (and near the dealer) Coincidentally, I was meeting the SoCal Subaru Regional Service Mgr today too, he drove my car & by the look on his face (although he shied away from admitting it) he knows there's something wrong. He had me drive another WRX (Auto Wgn) over the same spot and it appeared to do the same thing to me, which leads me to believe that it's a design flaw. He kind of said the same thing to me that the ABS logic may be screwed up.

I still don't think we're going to get anywhere though until this is recorded under test conditions. I don't really have the time or energy to do it personally right now, but if it doesn't get resolved soon I may just go do it myself.

The Rep told we it's his job to keep Warranty costs down, so I doubt this will even get taken any further. A recall is not going to happen unless people start crashing and suing Subaru, I almost wish this would happen and then maybe they'd wake up.

The only leverage I have right now is that my car is also on the verge of being Lemon-Lawed on an unrelated CEL issue, if they don't resolve that they owe me $$$ or a car, maybe then they'd consider researching the ABS issue.

FYI: I used to have a 2000 RS which did not do this. (I also used to have Mazda MX6, Corolla, Volvo and a Peugeot all with ABS and all did not do this under braking on a bumpy road)

- Richard

Couple of things I'd like to say.

1. If this gets any deeper it's going to require 3 lawyers per person to prove your points.

2. Watch WRC and learn how to DRIFT!!!!

Just going my part to add humor and douse the flames :D

Bugsie and Everyone else:

Go to www.Subaru.com and register your complaint complete with VIN number. I did this and will post the reply in another post. Tell them to read this thread.

Of course it is the job of the rep to keep costs down. (Do anyone of you work ofr a company that says, "Make sure you spend as much as possible" unless your a doing work of the government in the last quarter of the year? That, by the way, is from the voice of experience.) One way you keep costs down is that you correct problems on your own BEFORE the customers take it to the NHTSA.

Look at the costs that Ford-Firestone has on the Explorer tire problem. You think that Subaru wants a similar problem on their hands? Of course they don;t.

Do we, as a group, know if we are the first people to report the ABS problem? Have others reproted it before us? Of course not.

SO, if you want Subaru to do something, you MUST report it to them. How can they know that this is a design or mfg problem and not an isolated case if it isn't reported directly to them?

Has anyone but Bugsie and I reported it through a rep or on the web site?

Reply from Subaru


Dear Jan:
Thank you for your recent e-mail to Subaru of America, Inc. We appreciate you taking the time to contact us. We are sorry to learn of the difficulties you are experiencing with your 2002 Subaru Impreza WRX. Our records do not indicate that there are any recalls, service campaigns, or service bulletins regarding your concern. The owner's manual does have some information regarding tests that can be performed by either you or the dealer. These tests will measure the brake pedal distance and determine whether or not the pedal is within specifications. If it is not, the dealer can make an adjustment. You may want to consider allowing a dealer to inspect your vehicle. We do not recommend that you disconnect the ABS as this is a safety feature in the vehicle. If you have any further questions, or should you need further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact us at Subaru Customer/Dealer Services at 1-800-SUBARU3 (1-800-782-2783) and refer to case number 360488. Thank you for ! the opportunity to be of service.

Gina Cucinotta
Subaru of America, Inc.
-----------------------------------------------------------
YOUR ORIGINAL MAIL:

The ABS kicks in way to early and brakign distances get dangerously long. I aleviated the rpobnlem by removing the RE-92 tires and putting on Toyo Proxxes T1-s.

Go to www.i-lub.com into forums on service issues. Many people have reported the brake pedal going flat to the floor.

People are scared enough to talk about removing the ABS fuse and going to the NHTSA to try and get this problem resolved.

I do not know if you ahe had any other contacts.

area of Interest:
first name: Jan
last name: Poller

null

you told them to go to www.i-lub.com , you know. don't know if you noticed that or not.

Ok I have been reading this thread for a while now. I personally haven't experienced the problems with the ABS on my WRX. I know that when I have had to engage the ABS on any car it can be a little disconcerting. The break pedal start feeling weird and your stopping distances increase, BLAH... BLAH...BLAH. That's ABS and ABS should really only kick in emergency situations BLAH..BLAH..BLAH.

Ok the reason I'm replying to this is that please stop screaming RECALL or design problems or call the NHTSA. If a few people are experiencing problems then it's possibly a misuse of the brakes or hey guess what something is broken. You know that happens sometimes with things that are made by humans. I know..I know... how do you misuse brakes? And I know you guys are all Michael Schumacher or Makkinen when it comes to braking skills and have driven all the cars in the word and never...BLAH...BLAH...BLAH.

I'm just afraid that whenever some one starts thinking about getting the Government involved or Lawyers involved those people can make any thing sound like a major issue and some sort of defect. In other words with enough time and the hope of money a lawyer can make anything happen...Sh**ty world isn't it?

So stop trying to devalue my car by crying Wolf on something that sounds like to me is normal ABS characteristics. Beside the first review on the WRX did state that the brakes were nothing special and were rated average in the class.

I personally love my WRX, yes I too have had some problems with my WRX. Had to get the clutch replaced because of a chatter and noise problem. But I was king of expecting their may be a recall or issues on a new product line like the WRX. It can take some time working out the kinks in a new product. It's just like the software industry with new versions i.e. usually their are services packs, patches, etc. to fix problems. And yes I know we are talking about brakes and people possibly losing their lives. I know the argument.

It just sounds to me like people don't like the characteristics of the WRX brakes so "deal with it" or buy a new car. If you feel it's so unsafe go trade it in and take the hit. We are talking about your life are we not?

I don't feel personally like my life is in jeopardy with the way WRX brakes work.

Hey I wonder are you guys trying to ruin the WRX name on purpose? Are you guys spies for the competitors. Oh…That's right their are no competitors. As the infamous Beavis would say “The WRX kicks ass”.

So for those of you who are considering on buying the WRX and are reading this thread go out an test drive the WRX for you self and try all the little tests that people have been doing to "TRY" and replicate the problem. I bet you won't see a brake problem and will just love the car. If the brakes are not to your standard that's fine and acceptable, just don't buy the car, but to say their is a problem or design defect with the WRX brakes I think is premature and irresponsible.

I may have to eat my words but I still haven't heard of any other conclusive evidence from reputable sources (not an unofficial website forum like this) that has found some discrepancies in the WRX brakes. Besides have you seen how many other magazines and professional organizations that have tested the WRX and have given the car excellent reviews and have not notices brake problems? These are professionals who put the car through rigorous test and not the average buyer/driver on some forum. Don't get me wrong this site is awesome and I love the forums, but you have to take what people say here carefully and with a "grain of salt". In fact you don't have to agree or believe or should even agree or believe what I'm saying, I'm just some guy out there in Internet land...See what I'm getting at...

If some of you are experiencing problems and truly do have valid issues please keep this thread up but stop saying this is a RECALL issue and every WRX has problems...

Steve:

In some respects, I agree with you. In others, I do not. Let me enumerate some things:

(Number 6 strted out last - I decided it should be first).

6. Instead of investing in different lights, fancy stereos, power upgrades, buy a decent set of tires and go to some kind of performance driving school. I did three track days with the RX-7. It paid for itslef even though I put my car into a tire wall. I am a much better driver now and I know what the car is doing.

Investment in you, the driver, carries over from car to car with no installation costs. Better tires are the cheapest performance upgrade that you can do. BTW, I put 225/50 WR 16 Proxxes T1-S on mine. I kept the stock rims becuase they are relatively light.

1. It is possible that some or all of the brakes systems do not work as they could be expected to.

2. Engineers make mistakes. Mazda had a recall on the RX7 Twin Turbo for an $8.00 brake hose that would malfunction (clog?) and cause the brakes to become inoperable iundeer any condition. We don't have that, but I did experience it on the RX-7 in reverse.

3. If someone feels that their brakes are not behaving correctly, they should go to the dealer first and Subaru second. And, they should make a note to Subaru on their web site. It is grossly unfair to complain and not tell Subaru. Not only is it unfair - how can yuo expect Subaru to research soemthing that they don't know about?

4. Despite what people say about the RE-92 tires having minimal affect, they are wrong. Since I got rid of them, the brakes aren't just adequate, or average for the class: they are great. I have not experienced the ABS "problem" since I switched. That does not mean that I won't at soemtime in the future.

4. Noting a problem and requesting that it be fixed doesn't denigrate the product.

5. Anyone buying WRX should develop the skill to hold the car off ABS unless it is specifically needed: e.g. slick surfaces. You don't have to be Michael Schumacher to do this, but we should all be better than the average driver.

superspd8,

I agree. I beleive that we should all take the responsibility to become better high performance drivers before we spend money on extra high performance parts. The WRX is a wonderful high performance machine and requires high performance skills. This is all topics for a different thread though. I just think people should understand the consequenses of a major recall because of an ABS or brake issue. People should be carefull of what they ask for.

Hey people:
Take your car out in dry, wet, and snowy parking lots and test out your car in every situation before you start adding to this huge forum! I'm not saying there isn't a problem or everyone is a bad driver or anything, but some people need to learn to downshift and/or accelerate if they lose some control(mostly in turns like the snow/sliding problems) I also recommend learning how to e-brake effectively. It's saved my butt a few times by knowing how to kick it sideways then accellerate to get out of situations. Slamming or appplying the brakes isn't always the solution if you lose control! (But it may be in many or most cases)Learn your car.....then complain. That's it-keepin it short!

-JR:cool:

With all the talk about getting SOA to recall their WRXs i thought this article on auto.com (http://www.auto.com/industry/recall19_20020219.htm) would be interesting .

Basically states that the recall process isn't as straightforward as you'd think.

Ok people complaining about the WRX in snow. I can't beleive what I'm hearing from some of you. I don't have that much experience driving in the snow since I don't live in it. I do however go up to the Sierras a lot for skiing and have had to drive in blizzard and icy conditions. All I know is one time I was in a car and we were parked in traffic and with no movement at all (I mean we were at a stand still) our car started slidding sidways of the road. Was that a problem with the car or was that just wind and one hell of an icy road? I don't know of any car that will not slide if the road is icy and or slippery enough.

I mean come on if the road is steep enough and the conditions are slippery enough the car just may slide!!! Sometime no matter how good of a driver you are the car may just start heading a direction and keep going that way no matter what corrective actions are taken. I was just watching a the WRC in Monte Carlo and I saw I forgot who, I beleive it was the Skoda team just slide right off the road even though he had the correct inputs to get the car out of the skid. It's not a perfect world people...

Oh by the way aren't tires and chains pretty important beside AWD when it comes to traction in the snow. These other cars that supposidly handle and behave so much better then the WRX in the snow may just have had better tires for those conditions or the conditions were just different. To many variables to blame the WRX. Also it is possible the WRX does not handle or is as stable in the snow as other vehicles. Rember the WRX has a pretty stiff suspension and is fairly light. The WRX may just not be able to dig into the snow as good as other cars and may get blown by the wind more. I know in general a stiffer suspension reacts differently on slick and bumpy surfaces. Come on people I live in California and even I know the basics of snow driving and the dangerous possibilities.

I personally haven't experienced the problems with the ABS on my WRX.

That's no surprise. Only 3% of WRX drivers on this poll (http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118903) had the problem. And maybe some of those aren't valid problems. But I wouldn't want to be the 1 guy in 100 that had defective brakes. Defective meaning can't stop on certain bumpy roads, not meaning can't stop on glare ice - that's way off topic.

So stop trying to devalue my car by crying Wolf on something that sounds like to me is normal ABS characteristics


Stopping much in excess of usual distances on dry pavement is not "normal ABS characteristics". If you bought a defective car or defective model year (just like our defective MY98 XC), then yeah, you might get hit on resale. The safety is an issue, but also the resale value. That's why I'm postponing my WRX purchase until they iron out a few of the more serious bugs, or at least until it has been out long enough for Consumer Reports to evaluate it, not just 200 or so on an i-club poll. We bought our Volvo XC the first year it came out, and sure enough, it came out on the Consumer Reports "Not Recommended" list. Too many irritating electrical problems, and brakes that prematurely wear.

You know, I was just about to buy the WRX (I had decided I could deal with the 5mt "personailty) when this thread came up. My 1980 Civic may be an underpowered rust bucket, but it always stops. So does my mom's CR-V (which does have ABS). I have read all the posts, and this behaivoir is NOT normal. I live in NYC, and have driven ABS cars in stoplight-to-stoplight driving over lousy roads, and the abs has kicked in MAYBE twice, in rainy conditions. Small bumps causing the ABS to go wacky is not an acceptable behaivoir. There are rail-road tracks near my school, and I intend to grab a friend with a 2002 impreza and see if I can reproduce the problem. I love cars with charachter, but this is a bit much. I do hope that some conclusion is reached in this problem so that I may enjoy my new WRX when (I hope) I purchase it.

has anyone tried unplugging the abs fuse to see if this helps the braking performance? my civic si didn't have abs and i was fine without it.

duckboy

After my experience in snow, I unplugged it. Like I said on a previous post, it will literally stop 10X faster without ABS than with ABS in the snow. Other vehicles that I own don't react in snow like the WRX does. I can also re-create at will the no brake over bump senario.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, could this be a production line issue? i.e. ABS parts from 4 front/2 rear pot cars have been accidentally used on some US WRX's? Anyone with ABS engineering knowledge out in i-club land?

just so you Guys are up to date with me and my ABS complaints...

My brake system mechanically is fine (I have no complaints.)
I have contacted SOA many times.
My car has already been inspected twice for ABS problems at the dealership.
I have had the regional Subaru Rep drive my car and experience this problem.
It happens on stock suspension and RE92s but MORE SO on my S-02s (and there's not a better tire out there.) I believe this is due to the harsher ride of the 17" tire.
I can get it to do it as slow as 25-30mph and it has happened at various speeds up to 70mph.
Subaru do not recommend I pull the ABS fuse, so I won't (but damn I want to.)

In my closest call so far I was on the Freeway (not tailgating) I applied medium brake when a guy was cut off in front of me just to maintain my distance (in case he spun out or something) I hit some bumps, damn ABS kicked in (like I really need it at 70mph!)and I could not slow down.. I ended up having to brake as hard as I could ... I was so close to the guy almost to the point where I was about to slowly bump into the back of him and considered swerving to change lanes when I got some braking power back (thank God!)

This probably only happened over a second or two at the most, but at 70 mph that's a long distance to travel without brakes. I wouldn't have had to brake hard if the ABS had not activated; if I had to slow down another 5 mph or stop 5 ft shorter I would have hit the guy.

Just wanted to give you an idea of my feelings on the subject.

- Richard

Originally posted by duckboy
has anyone tried unplugging the abs fuse to see if this helps the braking performance?

duckboy

I pulled the fuse over the weekend when there was snow on the ground and except for the ABS warning light constantly on it was fine. It rained last night so I put the fuse back in.

I luckily haven't experienced the sudden loss of brakes yet and I've certainly tried to recreate what others have described. I hard braked over railroad tracks, bumps, manhole covers, etc. and the ABS worked fine.

From what I've read, there seems to be a problem with the ABS brakes on some of the cars. I've driven many "preformance" cars with ABS and the pedal has never gone to the floor leaving the driver sitting in soiled pants. :eek:

ABS test

The roads where wet today so i decided to do some low speed brake tests (30 MPH).

By slamming on the brakes I could get lock-up and into the ABS. Braking distances increased dramatically. This is exacly what the Acura brakes do.

I also tired my standard braking technique. I squeeze on the brakes getting the car settled. I stay out of the ABS. You can feel this is you really look. Braking distances were really short.

The brakes are not like the brakes on my RX-7 Twin Turbo. However, if you got into the ABS in the RX-7, it's braking distances would also increase. The RX-7 brake force was proportional to the distance pressed. The WRX brakes seem to be more proportional to the pessure. Either way works. You just have to adjust to it.

At this point, I do not consider my brakes to be in anyway defective. I do think I have to experiment with tire pressures to see what gives the best handling and braking. I don;t care if the ride is rough.

This does not mean that YOUR particular car is behaving correctly - only that mine is.

Jan

For those of you trying to recreate this problem, here is the easiest way I have found to get the ABS to kick in.

Find an area where they are tearing up the road to resurface it. Somewhere where the road drops a couple of inches and hit the brakes. I have been able to get it to go at <20mph.

I can't beleive people are not considering buying the WRX because of what they hear on this forum from just a few people.

Oh well their loss. As I said before I have not experienced the brake problem.

For those of you who said they are postponing their purchase I can understand that. If you are looking for perfection in the first model/production line of a car you are probably not going to get it from any manufacture. If you are looking for 0% manufacturing defects what a wonderfull world it would be!!!

The manufacture can only test so many things before certifying and releasing it for production. The rest of the problems unfortunately come out in the real world. Kind of like software huh?

I'm sure over the next few years the kinks in the WRX will be worked out.

I've only had one complaint with my WRX that's not bad for a new model of car i.e. decel noise. But that would have never turned me off from buying the car.

For those perfectionists out there don't buy this years car if you must. Wait a couple of years if that makes you feel better. In the meantime my car will be paid off, the kinks worked out and hopefully have some mods. Oh I will also be having a lot of fun driving my WRX...

I agree with many people on this site that the abs on the wrx is just not right. I had a 98 RS before the WRX and the abs did not engage nearly as easily as on the WRX. The one thing I will say is that when the RS had bad tires and the conditions were slippery the car did not stop. I also put a set of Metal Master pads on the RS which seemed to help braking. Maybe with the added weight of the WRX and the same crappy tires/stock pads the abs engages much sooner resulting in the problem everyone is having.

My roommate has a 2001 GTI that I have driven quite a bit and never has the abs come on like on my WRX.

Anyway the RS was the first car I owned that had abs and never really liked them anyway so I pulled the fuse on the WRX and have been much happier with break performance. I am planning to drive the rest of the winter without abs then try them again in the spring when I get my 17in wheels. By then maybe SOA or someone on the site will figure out if there is a problem or not.

Cliff

I can get my abs to do this EVERY time!

Same section of road, downhill with a light at the bottom, a raised strip of asphalt about 150' from the light (expanded and bent upwards) and in ANY weather condition, rain, shine, snow, sleet, doesn't matter.

Come down the hill and hit the brakes (~35mph) before the bump and slide right on through the intersection (wave at perplexed motorists and MP's). Do it with a car in front and one has to swerve around on the gravel and turn right before stopping. ABS engages, pedal drops almost to the floor, can feel pedal reverberating but braking does not happen-car just keeps rolling, nor does pedal pressure return until I let off the brake and re-engage it.

I have driven many ABS cars, so don't tell me it's user error. Just for shiz-n-giggles I hopped in 2 ABS equipped rental cars and hit the same section of road. A 2001 Buick Regal GS from Avis, couldn't even get the ABS to activate, much less roll through the intersection. 2002 Ford Focus from Enterprise, same thing only ABS pulsed the brakes after the bump and I stopped with plenty to spare. That rules out operator error. True the tires and vehicles were different, but that's not the point. Point is something is askew.

I have emailed SOA telling them I would be more than willing to let a tech experience this problem and that I can replicate it any time of day. I am awaiting their reply.

Yes, I know I could have better tires. Yes I know I could brake later (after said bump) and stop just fine. That is, in fact, what I do now. But what happens when I'm on a road I don't know??? This is not how a modern ABS car should operate.

If anyone wishes to debate this, I invite you to come to FT KNOX with 2 changes of underwear and I will gladly give you my car keys in exchange for one set of underwear and stand on the other side of above mentioned intersection and watch you sail thru it-and heck, even have a change shorts for you on the other side. Maybe I could even park my M1A1 in the intersection to make things a little more interesting (providing you have full coverage Ins).

If SOA responds and sends a Tech out I will keep the board updated.

2LT Chris Byrne

Oh my God Chris, you are so obviously just trying to DEVALUE our wrx's. Stop making people not buy wrx's by posting things like this. :D

In all sencerity though, thanks for posting that, and I sure hope you hear form Subaru, and quickly.

I thought maybe my problems had been cured, but today I made the mistake of lightly pressing the brakes while driving over a drainage grate, travelling at a blazing 25 mph. Well, of course, we can't have that. Pedal to the floor...lots of vibrating and cool noises, but NO braking. Glad no one was in front of me.

Good luck with your repeatable contition.

PS :monkey: The people who don't believe there's a real problem because they themselves haven't experienced it (yet) can bite me. :monkey:

Oh my God Chris, you are so obviously just trying to DEVALUE our wrx's. Stop making people not buy wrx's by posting rumors like this. :D

In all sencerity though, thanks for posting that, and I sure hope you hear form Subaru, and quickly.

I thought maybe my problems had been cured, but today I made the mistake of lightly pressing the brakes while driving over a drainage grate, travelling at a blazing 25 mph. Well, of course, we can't have that. Pedal to the floor...lots of vibrating and cool noises, but NO braking. Glad no one was in front of me.

Good luck with your repeatable condition.

PS :monkey: The people who don't believe there's a real problem because they themselves haven't experienced it (yet) can bite me. :monkey:

Chris: Do you know other WRX owners in your area? If not, you could certainly find somebody with a post in your local forum. I would be very interested to know if you can reproduce it with other WRXs. It's quite clear that there's a problem with some cars, but I still wonder if the ones that haven't experienced it (like myself) have a properly working ABS system, or if they have just been lucky so far.

Excellent point TheWRX, there is another 2002 WRX on post, belonging to a captain at the advanced course, I see it parked next to me all the time. I shall attempt to flag the owner down and see if he has the same problem, and maybe we can even switch cars and see if the problem will repeat itself in different WRX's on the same piece of road with different drivers. I think that would eliminate almost every variable other than ABS. Give me a couple days though, am going to the field next week and will only be back in garrison intermittently. But wait a minute, his WR Blue Rex has a spoiler and mine doesn't, maybe it's aerodynamics at play...haha Will keep everyone informed.

Drive On!
Chris

i know this isn't a subaru... BUT... in my ford contour this had happened... never seemed to bother me... i just learned to pick my foot up and hit the brake again. :confused: it worked... but i just had to have my whits about me.

Ezatnova, hyperactive monkeys aside (why don't the moderators do away with that icon? It's silly and insulting.), I think that people are saying (as I have) that if your cars are having a problem, and that problem is easily duplicatable, take someone from Subaru to the spot where you can make it happen, and show them. Then they can fix it.

I know that it isn't a problem with every car (like mine), but it is clearly a problem with some cars, and those cars should be fixed. Not having braking is the worst feeling in the world, take it from a guy who, many years ago, came rolling into a toll plaza only to discover there was a soda can lodged under the brake pedal.

D-oh! :eek:

I think it's easy to say that ALL Subarus have a problem, when this is in fact not the case. I think that's the only point that some people are trying to make.

Kevin

Interesting point (I apologize if it's been brought up). In the most recent Sports Car Magazine, in a nice article about the 2.5 Imprezas, it states that they like how there is an easily removeable ABS fuse. They say something like "when drving in a rally, the ABS is easily confused by the bumpy roads and braking power goes away" I realize thyey might be referring to dirt road rallys, but they flat out say the bumps cause failure of braking due to engagement of ABS. Keep in mind they are talking about the pre-2002 Imprezas, too.
Kevin, I wasn't taking a shot directly at you by any means (not that I got the impression that you thought that, but just in case). I just don't appreciate people saying ludicrous things about how a few of us here are crazy, can't drive, don't know ABS, and are just trying to hurt the public's view of the wrx, etc.

It's all good, man. Hey, Conduit (look at the ABS thread in Factory Forced Induction) has something going where he's one of the point men for a possible solution for this problem. According to him (and this doesn't surprise me) Subaru is taking this VERY seriously.

Perhaps they'll listen further, and stop putting RE92s on their performance models! :lol:

Kevin

Originally posted by gtguy
It's all good, man. Hey, Conduit (look at the ABS thread in Factory Forced Induction) has something going where he's one of the point men for a possible solution for this problem. According to him (and this doesn't surprise me) Subaru is taking this VERY seriously.

Perhaps they'll listen further, and stop putting RE92s on their performance models! :lol:

Kevin

Hey, I am worried for my daughter: she has a 2002 Imprezza Outback Sport and it has RE-92's.

Of course, Subaru has to take this seriously. They don't want an Audi Unintended Acceleration or a Ford/Firestone Explorer problem.

I wonder if this affects other Imprezzas, or only the WRX.

Jan

Find an area where they are tearing up the road to resurface it. Somewhere where the road drops a couple of inches and hit the brakes. I have been able to get it to go at <20mph

just another person adding to the FACT that there is something wrong with our braking system.

This resurfacing was being done a couple mins from my house and i could recreate the no more brakes situation every time i went over it. I do agree with others though in that if i waited until after i went over the bump and then hit the brakes that they would work fine. Good thing the bump was a good 100 yards from the stop sign and not 5.

Oh and i had some of my friends take the same bump in their ABS equipped cars and NONE of them had the same problem

Honduheater, please make sure you get a chance to call or write Subaru and preferably take a Subaru person for a ride. We have to take advantage of the situations which can be replicated on demand such as yours!
Good luck!

Jeff C. - who has two fast turbo cars, neither with brakes worth a damn :p

steveswrx...

the amount of pressure you put on the pedal has little to do with whether the ABS kicks in or not if you hit a bump.

For Example: the only place I have found so far that I can always make this happen (very small hole in the road near my house) I found completely by accident when very lightly braking for a corner (which I subsequently almost shot right past.)

- Richard.

Why do people who haven't experienced this problem feel as if they need to debate with others that have, that their braking system is working corectly?

I don't get it.

Quote: "I've said this before and I'll say it again, could this be a production line issue? i.e. ABS parts from 4 front/2 rear pot cars have been accidentally used on some US WRX's? Anyone with ABS engineering knowledge out in i-club land?"

Oh and i had some of my friends take the same bump in their ABS equipped cars and NONE of them had the same problem

Did they have the same tires, same weight car, etc?

Guys, unfortunately I found out the hard way on the ABS issue. Saturday night, about 5 pm, I was buzzing down the freeway...got my month old WRX with 2,000 miles down to about 65, 70, jumped in the offramp lane...brakes just stopped slowing the car down, even with my foot to the floor, and I couldn't make the turn. Rolled my rex at least 3 or 4 times, totalling it out. Car is a mess, I walked away without injury, except for a few scrapes on my right hand. I'll try and post a picture of what's left below, but this is actually my first post to the board. Quite a way to introduce myself, huh? The insurance company is having the vehicle investigated, but anyone have any advice on what to do next? Also, neither front nor side impact airbags went off.

Kevin

Pictures are here (http://www.homepagez.com/wreckedwrx/wrx.html)

Originally posted by KKoepp31
Guys, unfortunately I found out the hard way on the ABS issue. Saturday night, about 5 pm, I was buzzing down the freeway...got my month old WRX with 2,000 miles down to about 65, 70, jumped in the offramp lane...brakes just stopped slowing the car down, even with my foot to the floor, and I couldn't make the turn. Rolled my rex at least 3 or 4 times, totalling it out. Car is a mess, I walked away without injury, except for a few scrapes on my right hand. I'll try and post a picture of what's left below, but this is actually my first post to the board. Quite a way to introduce myself, huh? The insurance company is having the vehicle investigated, but anyone have any advice on what to do next? Also, neither front nor side impact airbags went off.

Kevin

http://www27.brinkster.com/subaruwrx/Car3.jpg
http://www27.brinkster.com/subaruwrx/Car1.jpg

I looked at the pictures by pasting the link to the address line of IE. You are lucky you weren't hurt and you are lucky that you had no passenger. Subaru is lucky that you didn't have a passenger.

If anyone has had any doubt (me - to some extent) that there was a real brake problem, this should resolve it.

I suggest that everyone who has experienced this CALL Subaru and e-mail them today.

I am going to try and duplicate this even in a safe place and learn how to handle it.

hey there KKoepp31, I just talked with
my co-worker (who is a FD Capt.) and asked
why the airbags didn't deploy. Here is his
response: The sensors for the airbags are in
the mid-section of the door and require a
threshold impact to deploy the airbags. After
looking at the sides of your WRX, it appears
that the damage to the doors was not significant
enough to deploy the bags. The reasoning
behind the threshold is that you don't want
the bags to deploy by someone slaming another
door into them, or if you slam your car door
yourself. Just a thought. Although, he would
not rule out a faulty sensor, but it seems
unlikly since there should be 3 or 4 sensors on
each side.

Sorry superspd8, but I fail to see how your crash relates to the issue at hand in this thread. People report that over bumpy roads, especially at lowish speeds, their ABS freaks out. The pedal goes to the floor, and they lose the brakes completely.

You haven't told us enough about your crash (other than the speeds involved) for us to know if that was the problem. How about road conditions, and whether or not the ABS activated. Was the road smooth or bumpy? I'm guessing pretty smooth, since it was an exit ramp.

Sorry to hear about the car. That's ugly.

Kevin

Well, gtguy, you may be right, or not. He does need to describe the road condition, and whether the brakes just failed, or the ABS kicked in and braking power went away. I wouldn't discredit him regarding bumpy roads just because it's a exit ramp. I went over an exit ramp in Camden, NJ this weekend where I thought I was going to leave 3 wheels behind there were so many holes and ruts.

Anyway, glad you're ok...that's amazing...glad there was no passenger too. I would expect the roof to crumple less since there is so much reinforcement up there we can't even get a sunroof. I guess that's a helluva lot of force though, rolling like that. Must've been damn scary.

my brakes went funky on me at a bumpy slow speed stop today getting off the freeway today... this is not good. Only have had this car for 4 days.

Ok, let me see if I can give you all a little more information. First of all, I live in Michigan, which means that no matter what the road is, it's got its bumps, potholes, cracks in the road, etc. Weather conditions at the were pretty good. Late afternoon, sun was starting to set. No snow, rain, anything like that. My speeds on the freeway were up and down. I'm no mechanic by any means, but I have a feeling that because of my rapid increases and decreases in speed while playing around on the freeway may have caused my brakes the get so hot that they failed to perform. Does this make sense to anyone else? Like I said, I'm no mechanic but that was just an idea someone threw at me. All I know is that while I was cruising along on the freeway, getting up to around 100 and back down to 70, 75 in order to slow for traffic, the brakes seemed to work ok. Once I got on the ramp, I knew instantly something was wrong. Honestly, everything happened so fast, exact details I don't know. At first I thought maybe the road was oily or was dirt covered. State troopers said they couldn't find anything of that nature. After coming on here and reading about ABS failures and how they have been happening, I am fairly certain this is what happened in my case. Hope this gives you guys a little more details.

Kevin

Kevin,

Looking at your pictures is very sobering, I am glad you are OK. I am definitely going to keep this ABS problem in the back of my mind while driving the WRX.

One thing I should point out is that, even with 100% brake failure, you still have a gearbox that you can use to slow down your car with a few quick downshifts. This may or may not have helped your situation - I know in an accident everything happens soooo fast and you don't have the luxury of analyzing your options. I have had to use this technique in the past due to severe brake fade (on track) and also often use it in snow to prevent ABS engagement.

People may say this can cause damage to the transmission - I would argue that in an emergency with the potential for injury or worse, I'll worry about getting the car hauled down first and the transmission later.

As an aside, can anyone doubt the crashworthiness of the WRX? Man! I hope I never need those capabilities from the car, but it's reassuring.

Kevin

Originally posted by gtguy
Sorry superspd8, but I fail to see how your crash relates to the issue at hand in this thread. People report that over bumpy roads, especially at lowish speeds, their ABS freaks out. The pedal goes to the floor, and they lose the brakes completely.


Kevin

Kevin:

It wasn't my car that crashed - mine is 100% intact and undinged.

However, his syptoms are EXACTLY the same as others reported. So what if his speed was 65 intead of 20? It is still total loss of braking and the pedal going to the floor.

Jan

Sorry Jan, I misunderstood the order of the posts. But if the situations are different, and the pedal still went to the floor, this is either a) something else to worry about, or b) fluid boiling, as Kevin speculated might have been possible. I doubt that would be the case, however, since 100-70 stops shouldn't be that bad.

I'm still curious about the road conditions, but something is definitely hinky with the car's braking system. The pedal shouldn't go to the floor. :eek:

The nearest I have been able to come to replicating the experiences of others, was exiting Lake Shore Drive last night at Irving Park Rd., and hit a big-assed pothole. The ABS went off briefly, but the pedal never went to the floor, and braking seemed quite normal except for the ABS. It didn't take all that much longer to slow down, meaning that I stopped in plenty of time to keep the ol' sphincter from clenching.

It definitely seems to be a car-specific thing. Have there been any inroads made by any of the people seeking relief from Subaru?

Kevin

I still don't think that KKoepp31 has told us whether the ABS even engaged (tried to engage) or not. If it were the case (which I doubt) that either the pads were cooked from repeated stops, or the fluid was boiling, then the ABS might not even get to engage due to lack of clamping power. That's a whole different ballgame there. But like I said, I doubt that's the case, given the WRX's superior brake pad material and all (not being sarcastic...it is a better compound than the standard Subie pads).

Just to clarify once again, whether it's all cars, or just some (like mine!) the problem definitely only occurs on random, bumpy situations. When I was autocrossing last weekend, the ABS worked perfectly since it was a flat, smooth surface.

Jeff C.

In all honesty, I am unsure on the ABS issue and whether they went off or not. All I am certain of is that after getting in the exit lane and after I applied normal pressure to the brake pedal the brakes were unresponsive. A more firm press of the pedal still yeilded nothing. A downshift only slowed me minimally, I just wasn't expecting a brand new vehicle to not stop. I always downshift when slowing down, so I was in the habit of doing that. The ABS issue is just something I can't give a definate answer on. Everything happened so quick. I knew the second I got on the pedal a little harder I was in trouble. The exit was a north to south exchange and the 30mph signs were no joke. This was not the type of exit I would try and take fast just to see what the car could handle. The whole incident really scared the hell out of me. I was knocked out for a few minutes. By the time I woke up, people were all around me, but amazed to find me still alive. In fact, three of the four doors you could open. only the passenger door was stuck shut. I have nothing but praise for the seats. Combined with the seatbelt, they held me extremely firm in place. Without them, I doubt I'd be moving around today. Now I'm just waiting to get the insurance settled and have them look at the car. It's really anybody's guess as to what they will find.

Kevin

Glad to hear that you're ok after that crash.

Have the insurance company check to see if the correct US ABS related parts were placed on your car, not parts for a European/Japaneese/Australian spec 4 piston caliper car.

Just to clarify once again, whether it's all cars, or just some (like mine!) the problem definitely only occurs on random, bumpy situations. When I was autocrossing last weekend, the ABS worked perfectly since it was a flat, smooth surface.

Jeff C. [/B][/QUOTE]

Just so happens that I ran my WRX in our first auto-X of the season on 1/27/02. Following the fastest section of the course, which was almost to the rev-limiter in 2nd, I braked very late and hard and the ABS went Ape ***** and bananas. The same thing happened to a friend in his rex. We both pulled the fuse and encountered no further problems that day. The surface was very smooth asphalt. The section was a fast, 4 gate, lazy-slalom, leading into a left-hand decreasing radius turn. In contrast, I have seen the ABS respond similarly over bumpy raods at varying speeds.

The friend happens to be the Sales Manager for the local Subaru dealership. Hopefully, we will get an answer to the ABS problem. It is very real and can be very dangerous.

We both run aftermarket wheels & tires. He runs 18", I 17". I run box-stock brakes, he runs a Brembo big brake kit. The common link: Subaru ABS unit.

Curtis

Has anyone with an aftermarket suspension experienced this brake problem? Just a thought that might help isolate things further.

Kevin

Originally posted by gtguy
Has anyone with an aftermarket suspension experienced this brake problem? Just a thought that might help isolate things further.

Kevin

GTGuy:

I was wondering abotu the rear suspension as a contributiong factor. When I go ver a speed bump the back end of the car feels liek it si fallign off the bump. The other dya, I had 4 passengers and it was smooth going voer the bumps.

BTW< I informed the sperson at Subaru who repleid to my letter that, despite her advice, I wam pulling the ABS fuse.

Jan

Hmmm. We know that the sedan has stiffer, shorter springs than the wagon. Are any wagon folks experiencing the ABS problem?

I don't know if any of this is helping, but isolating variables can only be good, I think.

Kevin

GTGuy:

Yes, it happens with wagons too. I have one with P7's and Yok AVS Sports. I posted very early on that I had had similar ABS experiences in both my RX7 TT and my BMW M Roadster, but after finally experiencing it with the WRX, I'd have to say, it's a whole different ball of wax.

What I experienced was more akin to the poor guy who rolled his WRX, but luckily, I was on a straight street with ample time before the stopsign. It wasn't even so much a panic braking situation. What I experienced was more like someone put a time delay on the brakes, then let them kick in. For about 1-2 seconds I had no brakes at all with the pedal firmly depressed. It really scared the %^$# out of me.

I've gotten into the ABS of the above cars, but it was under severe panic braking situations. With the WRX, it was slightly wet and the road had been serrated prior to being repaved so it was very rough. I consider myself a reasonably experienced driver. I'm the type of guy who panic stops every car I drive to get a feel for what the brakes are capable of so I can establish safe following distances. This was not normal braking behavior.

When this happened I contacted my local Subaru dealership. They denied any knowledge about both the decel noise or the braking problem. They also told me everything was fine. After reading this thread I opted, good or bad, to file a report the the NHTSA. I'm not of the mind that it should take a few severe crashes with people getting hurt or killed to wake up the NHTSA or SoA. Imagine your wife or family member driving your WRX and needing to panic stop, then having no brakes and slamming into a car in front of her. I for one will not wait for a large foot dragging auto mfgr to take this problem seriously. It's in an automakers best interest not to act until it is economically viable. Despite all the bad press Ford received over the Explorer situation, they're still selling them like mad so bad press does not seem to be a motivator either. Unfortunately, it's all about $$. Don't kid yourselves otherwise.

(off soapbox)

Thanks for the info, Chris. Man, that sounds crazy. Bummer.

Kevin

I've been driving my WRX for around 3100 miles. There's been around 3 instances that the braking was acting up. For me, each was a fairly low speed at around 15 - 30 mph. I don't really remember if there were bumps on the road, but what I experienced when I applied my brakes was this:

The pedal goes pretty far down, it starts to pulse and make this grinding noise, and I don't feel I'm slowing down.

I didn't make an abrupt break, I was not being careless. There was no 'driver-error' on my part, all I did was a normal slowdown and stop. I almost rear ended somebody on two of those instances.
For those of you that have not experienced this and keep implying that it's the driver's fault, shut the f*ck up. :monkey:

We're talking about something that can be potentially life-threatening under the right conditions, which we're pieceing together on this thread. If it doesn't get addressed and one of you finally experience this problem and get hurt, well that's one less nay-sayer, but I don't think that's a good way to lose one...

Hey WRicer, how about those of us who haven't experienced it, but are asking questions and trying to help those that have? Do we still get the monkey? :lol:

I'm still hoping that someone sees this thread who has posted about having the problem, who can answer the aftermarket suspension system question posted a few posts above this one.

Might help, might not...

Kevin

I appreciate KKoepp31's post but sounds to me like his problem was most likely brake fade, I've had this in my WRX and RS after a few hard laps at the track, so it's not really related to anything we're talking about here.

With regards to after market suspension I only have stock, but like I've said before my 17" S02s make the issue occur more frequently apparently due to their harsher ride I would guess.

-Richard

Originally posted by Bugsie1
I appreciate KKoepp31's post but sounds to me like his problem was most likely brake fade, I've had this in my WRX and RS after a few hard laps at the track, so it's not really related to anything we're talking about here.

With regards to after market suspension I only have stock, but like I've said before my 17" S02s make the issue occur more frequently apparently due to their harsher ride I would guess.

-Richard

M toyo Proxes T1-S 225-50/WR16 on the stock wheels the issue occur mcuh less frequently. I am going to try some reduced tire pressures - I have been running about 36 all around.

I doubt that any of us have the engineering knowledge or the equipment required to find out wha tthe cause is. All we can do is tell Subaru about it.

I did give them a link to this site when I made not of the problem to them.

Jan

i am disconnecting my abs until subaru fixes this problem.... someone can lose their life if this doesn't get resolved.

Because of my short available time at work....

Would someone like to post the link to contact Subaru so we can make complaints and link this site to them...?

Just a suggestion.... :)

Originally posted by BigElm
Because of my short available time at work....

Would someone like to post the link to contact Subaru so we can make complaints and link this site to them...?

Just a suggestion.... :)

Just go to www.subaru.com and "contactus". You will need the serial number of your car.

I already posted a link to this forum. I also noted the car that was roleld becasue of the brake failure.

After reading some of the posts I decided to try a brake test. I performed the test on over sized speed bumps and got some interesting results.

The speed bumps I tested on are about 4 feet in width and have a level top on them. Not the traditional bumps like in a Kroger parking lot. The speed bump can be found in neighborhoods and near schools on public roads.

I come to the first part of the speedbump at about 15mph and as the car goes to the high point of the bump I slam the brakes and feel the ABS start assisting me in braking. The assist makes the pedal feel as if it is chattering and while it doesn't drop all the way to the floor it feels like I've lost some braking power.

The test basically makes the car rise up creating less weight on the wheels as the abs assists with the braking. My conclusion is that with less weight on the wheels the abs feels the wheel "locking" onto the ground and begins releasing the brake trying to prevent the wheel from locking which would cause the vehicle to slide. ABS is designed to keep this from happening which may not be a real problem, just a design flaw in abs.

I'm not sure if this is normal or not so make any conclusions you wish.

I know...I just figured that if we all bombarded SOA about this and this thread, they may react a little quicker....

Just a suggestion ;)

But I DO consider a design flaw in my ABS to be a real problem.

Wouldn't you be upset if your new WRX sputtered and backfired a couple seconds before it took off when you used the accelerator?

Or maybe when you turned the steering wheel it took a second or two for the power steering to catch up.

When I use the accelerator I want it to GO (NOW!)
When I use the steering wheel I want it to TURN (NOW!)
When I use the brakes I want it to STOP (NOW!)

Isn't that what this car is supposed to be all about?

OK, I'm ranting a bit here (again), so if you don't want to read this fine, but here I go.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, sure ABS is a trade-off. I've got a low-end BOSCH ABS in my old '95 Pontiac Grand Prix. It works like this: When the wheel locks, it closes the valves to the pedal-pressure, and dumps caliper pressure until the wheels turn. As soon as the wheels are turning, it returns control to the pedal/accumulator. It's simple and it works. Sure it could technically brake harder if the wheel never locked up, but even if I wanted to leap the car over some RR tracks. There would be no brake confusion when the car landed. I KNOW how well the brakes stop the car because it's consistent, and I can adjust my braking distance accordingly. Now I personally prefer this compromise for daily driving. The alternative that I've been experiencing with my WRX's roulette-o-brakes makes me feel uneasy. That's great that it uses 4-channels of wheel speed data, G-forces, and probability calculations to provide me with maximum control during emergency braking. BUT if 1% of the time it gets confused and instead of 100% braking perfection, I get a dead pedal, and low stopping power, then I'd rather have my old BOSCH system, or no ABS at all. At least it's predictable. And WHY design a 4-channel ABS, that operates as a 1-channel system? The 'ol Pontiac is a 3-channel with no yaw control features, and although the steering yanks around a bit when the ABS is working hard, It's never threatened to spin me.

I've checked my sensors BTW, and they appear to be good and tight. I used the ABS several times in the ice storm we had here last month and it worked fine except for the normal ABS-on-loose-packed-stuff problem.

OK, my rant is over, it's time to go home.....

Where is the ABS computer located in this car anyway? Is it a part of the main ECU, or a seperate unit? G-Sensor internal or external?

I pulled the ABS fuse on Friday. I notice distinct improvements in the braking. Specifically:

1. The braking distance is much shorter, regardless of the pavement and weather conditions.

2. The brake pedal feel is much different. I always felt that after the point of engagement, it was a matter of pressure and not brake pedal movement that determined the braking force. The brake pedal always seemed to hi a spot where it didn;t want to depress much further. (Could some of you ahve interpreted this as the pedal going to the floor becuase it woudl go no further?) With the fuse pulled, the brake pedal is far more linear in operation. This is a big improvement.

My conclusion is that there is a big, big problem with the ABS system. I don't know if it is sensors, the ABS unit, the comptuer software, hoses, pressure build up. All I know is that I am much happier and feel much more secure without the ABS.

Some of you have places where you can reproduce the problem at will. The best thing you can do for us is try back to back tests with the fuse in and out. Alternate and get some good tests.

Jan

Chalk me down among the list of the converted believers.

Braking moderately into the GG bridge tollbooth on a completely dry day, at about 10-15mph the brake pedal dropped significantly and pulsated. The pavement was broken-up as it transitioned from asphalt to cement, and I could feel the bumps. The brakes were cutting in and out and I rolled past the toolbooth-doh! I just pushed harder on the pedal until I stopped, and never lifted or decreased pressure.

Immediately pulled off to the Presidio parking lot and did a few hard stops. ABS was working perfectly on smooth pavement, but replicated the above scenario over small bumps. I have subsequently pulled the ABS fuse. I would much rather sacrifice electronic driving aids that I cannot depend on performance wise, for some predictability. The ABS will undoubtedly out perform my own braking prowess in most situations, but it has demonstrated sufficient unpredictability and erratic behavior to represent, in my mind, an accident waiting to happen.

Sorry for having ever doubted all of you who have reported similar problems.......

Martin

Welcome to the believers club Martin... I suppose pulling the fuse really is a good thing...I think I'll be doing that now. We should scotch tape the fuse right on the windshield, so when the car goes in for service, there can be some interesting conversations.
I sure hope we hear something from Fires...er... For.....I mean, Subaru soon on this.

So, for all the "believers" out there, has anyone contacted either SoA or the NHTSA yet and filed a report?

Nothing's going to get done until SoA experiences some "pressure".

I think many of us have at least contacted subaru....for the most part with little positive or immediate response. I'm wondering if it's not better to be concentrating our efforts and sending a "petition" or notification of this thread to places like Autoweek, Car And Driver, Motortrend, Edmunds, Kelly's. etc. Then Subaru might start cringing, as Ford did, from the publicity. Granted, we don't know of anyone that has died yet, as were the results of the Firestone blowouts...but that's a GOOD thing that we're on this early, and we need to catch this before tradgedy strikes.

Originally posted by ChrisF
So, for all the "believers" out there, has anyone contacted either SoA or the NHTSA yet and filed a report?

Nothing's going to get done until SoA experiences some "pressure".

There are a number of reports of the brake problems on www.nhtsa.gov site. Go to vehicle reprots and search for problem ont he Imprezza - that is where the reprots are, not under WRX.

There are also reports that at 4,000 miles there is exhaust heat damage to the floor and carpeting of the car. (Glad mine is leased).

Jan

Well, call me a believer too...damn you Jeff...within minutes of sitting here talking to Jeff C. about the ABS problem...one of my acquaintances from work called me (he has a WR Blue WRX Sedan)...he was getting off of the PA turnpike and hit the rumble strips at about 30-40 MPH when the brake went to the floor and he was not that experienced of a driver and slammed it under a rig...car's totalled, good news he walked away without a scratch or even having to go to the hospital...

Call me a believer now...who is starting the damn petition...

Wow. This is getting scary. Since we've all been told that SOA monitors this board, I think that many people might be thinking that somebody is seeing their posts.

What I would do, if I were all of you (all 10 pages! :eek: ) is contact not the dealer, but this John Mergen who seems to be answering all emails and inquiries. If he gets enough input from enough people, that should spur them to action.

All I can do is ask questions, and empathize with you guys. I looked through the pages of posts, but didn't see anyone with an upgraded suspension having this problem, which could be why I haven't experienced it. I'd love to know if that was in fact the case.

I'm going to find some rumble strips tomorrow. We have some just at the highway exit that I take to go home, mostly to wake up the truckers who might be sleeping. I'll report on what happens.

For the record, I have DMS Golds, Goodridge stainless lines and SuperBlue fluid in my braking system.

Kevin

Just back from my rumble strip test. I tried braking just before the rumble strips, and while on the rumble strips. I also tried to get something to happen over railroad tracks. In both instances, the car just stopped. Nothing happened.

So, here's my theory. Let me preface this by saying that nobody should have to upgrade their suspension for a safe braking system.

But, what if the soft spring rates of the stock car have something, somehow to do with the problem? We know that a firmer suspension does a better job of keeping the wheels on the ground, which helps braking performance. But what if the soft springs are somehow allowing the wheel/tire to have less contact with the ground under the kinds of conditions that you guys are experiencing, thus somehow causing the system to freak out?

I know that when we were clunk hunting on my DMS, and I had the stock strut on one corner, the car felt weird not handling-wise, but under braking. There was an odd sort of thrum, for lack of a better word, from that corner, that you definitely felt while braking.

This requires a suspension expert to weigh in, but is this possible?

Kevin

I'm not a suspension expert by any means, but that does make sense to me. Obviously with an upgraded suspension, like you said, you vehicle should stick to the road better. The better setup makes the tires less likely to skip when going over railroad tracks or rumble strips or whatever the obstacle is. From my first hand experience, I can say that all it takes is a little slip and you're done.

What it all comes down to though is that we should never ever have to upgrade anything on our vehicles in order to make them stop safely. Hopefully Subaru does something about this before the problem gets any worse. After crashing my WRX, I haven't been shy at all about complaining to the the NHTSA or Subaru and neither should anyone else.

Kevin

Originally posted by gtguy
Just back from my rumble strip test. I tried braking just before the rumble strips, and while on the rumble strips. I also tried to get something to happen over railroad tracks. In both instances, the car just stopped. Nothing happened.

So, here's my theory. Let me preface this by saying that nobody should have to upgrade their suspension for a safe braking system.

But, what if the soft spring rates of the stock car have something, somehow to do with the problem? We know that a firmer suspension does a better job of keeping the wheels on the ground, which helps braking performance. But what if the soft springs are somehow allowing the wheel/tire to have less contact with the ground under the kinds of conditions that you guys are experiencing, thus somehow causing the system to freak out?

I know that when we were clunk hunting on my DMS, and I had the stock strut on one corner, the car felt weird not handling-wise, but under braking. There was an odd sort of thrum, for lack of a better word, from that corner, that you definitely felt while braking.

This requires a suspension expert to weigh in, but is this possible?

Kevin

Kevin:

II greatly diminehsed the affect when I changed from the soft-sidewall RE-92's to the Toyo Proxes T1-S. That effectively stiffened my suspension - the roll went away.

There are now about 8 reports on the NTHSA web site. You can believe that this will get looked into.

Because I won't accept any liability for what anyoen does, I won't tell you to pull your brake fuse and go over the strips again. I won't reinstall my ABS fuse until/unless there is a recall to fix the problem.

Jan

Originally posted by magis123
Well, call me a believer too...damn you Jeff...within minutes of sitting here talking to Jeff C. about the ABS problem...one of my acquaintances from work called me (he has a WR Blue WRX Sedan)...he was getting off of the PA turnpike and hit the rumble strips at about 30-40 MPH when the brake went to the floor and he was not that experienced of a driver and slammed it under a rig...car's totalled, good news he walked away without a scratch or even having to go to the hospital...

Call me a believer now...who is starting the damn petition...

Have your friend reprot it to NHTSA - it can be done at www.nhtsa.gov. This will be wto accidents caused by the aBS problem.

If I were Subaru, I would immeditly have people pull the ABS fuse before someone dies from brake failure.

Already directed him there...

Of course, this has me VERY leery of driving my car right now because PA roads are in no way smooth in the first place but now we have cinders all over the place...

Plus he wants to bitch at Subaru as well...

He described it almost exactly as you all have, the pedal just dropped like there was no pressure in the brake lines and WHAMMY!

<EDIT>oh and page 7 is owned</EDIT> J/K

How about we try and get some information together, I mean I am a total new guy around town but I am no slouch at fighting major car corporations, just ask Jeff C. He'll tell you ...

So far, let me see if I have the facts right...the majority of the ABS issues occur in cars with non-modded suspensions and stock, normal sidewall tires right?

What is our ratio of AT to MT of this happening...I have yet to have it happen to me and I have an AT...but I don't want to be the guniea pig...LOL...

I am going to try doing some playing tonight...

That faulty abs system almost kill me today! I am diabling it
tonight when I got home!!

What is the latest from SOA? Are you looking at it right now?
I'll file a complain on www.subaru.com. But if they don't response,
I 'll email Consumer Report about this. CR loves this kinda of
stuff!! I hate to go this route because I like what subaru make,
and I don't want to hurt their sales. But our lives (their customer)
is more important!

Anyone with me emailing CR??

I just filled out the NHSTA form. I'm dissapointed to see only about 6 other complaints about the brakes there...am I missing where they are or are people not doing what they need to do? I didn't find anything about the rollover accident there either.
I also just wrote to Subaru, describing the problem and, again, asking them to come here and read all of this. In case anyone cares, this is what I wrote to them:
"I have heard that others have contacted Subaru regarding this, but I would like to add my experience. The brakes on my WRX are faulty in that, often, when mild to moderate braking pressure is applied while travelling over rough or uneven surfaces, the ABS unrightfully comes on all or most braking power is lost. The car performs completely differently in these situations versus those in which hard braking is required on a smooth surface. In these later cases, the brakes work as they should. I have had it occur 4 or 5 times, at speeds ranging from 5 to 35 mph. Some things that have caused this problem are: speed bumps, cracked pavement, potholes, and drainage grates. I have been lucky in not rear ending another car, but unfortunately, within the past month, of three people I have talked with with 2002 Imprezas, one has lost braking and rolled his WRX, one couldn't stop at a tool booth due to rumble strips and went right through, and another went right under a tractor trailer (2 of the 3 were totalled). I'm hoping Subaru can investigate this further before lives are lost. Most of us who have been discussing this problem with each other have resorted to pulling out ABS fuses. At least we can rely on our own braking instincts. Please take the time to carefully read over the ELEVEN PAGES of complaints and discussion involving this topic that can be found at the follwing link on www.i-club.com.
http://i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=102893
Please make sure you cut and paste the link so it is all there, otherwise it won't work.
Thanks for your help."

Jeff C.

The Consumer Reports route is a good suggestion. You might also try directing them to this thread. There is nothing like potential media pressure to bring a problem to a more rapid resolution.

Hey, Jan, I know what you mean about the tires. I had my Dunlop 9000s on P1s for a glorious week a while back, when it was in the 50s here in Chicago. I had forgotten how nice those tires are.

Interestingly, my ABS didn't even go off when I went over the rumble strips. Just a firm pedal and full braking power. That makes me think that it just HAS to be the stock suspension contributing to this, which is why the UK lads aren't reporting the same problems on Scoobynet. According to what we know, they got stiffer springs than we did stock on the U.S. models. Also, do the UK/Euro cars get RE92s, and don't their cars come with the 4-piston setup stock, or do they get the 2-piston, and the STi comes stock with the 4-piston calipers?

Kevin

I have been watching this thread for a while, and at first I thought it was just in issue of not understanding ABS systems. I have never been much of a fan of "driver aids" so I diabled my ABS just on principle some time ago.

I have had one situation before the disconnect, where it gave me an unacceptably long deceleration on a sandy left turn lane, and I ended up taking a left turn much faster than I should have. In that case, stock 16 inch wheels, stock tires, no suspension mods. I was trying to make a turn arrow, and pulled into the turn lane and applied hard braking just as I crossed the sand build up between lanes. Pedal did not "go to the floor" but I did not get the pulsing sensation of a properly working ABS, just very low brake effort for very high pedal pressure. Everyone in the intersection was either amused or appalled as I went through the left turn slideways.

That aside, here is a suggestion for those of you who have the ability to replicate the event at will. You'll need a vidio camera and a G-Tech pro meter. set the gtech pro up for continous real time g read out, set up the vidio camera on tripod in the back seat so it takes in both the instrument cluster and the G-tech, then run the tests with and without the ABS fuse. You will have, with your narration of what is happening an objective record of how much the braking effort degrades.

Keep in mind we may still be getting a substantial fraction of the normal brake effort, but due to the circumstances it "feels" like no brakes. I would love to see this data if someone can get it.

Larry

GTGuy:

I don't know what brakes they have on the British WRX. Nor, do I know what tires they have.

Rather than put the RE-92's back on my car for bad weather, I jsut drive my wifes 2002 Acura CL coupe, wich is no slouch in terms of speed, onece youa re off hte line. It has the only Michelin tires I have liked in years: MXM PLUS. Our last TL sedan had MXM (I think that is the tire) and they were terrible in braking. THe TL with the crummy tires had ABS acting way to soon, the CL does not.

Hotrod: As for G-Meter and Video: unless you want to have fun, I cna;t see doing it. I assume that Subaru is running their own tests now, particularly since the posts to the NHTSA.

Etzanova: I did see the rolled car was mentioned on the site.

Jan

Kevin, our Brit friends, I believe, get a stiffer suspension, though I have never seen comparative spring/strut rates. They DO get 17" wheels wrapped in Bridgestone RE011's standard, as well as 4 pot brakes in the front and 2 pot in the rear.

I have the Sti suspension, bars, ALK, 17" P1's and S03's. I'm having my dealership check out the ABS on Thursday. I have found them to be extremely easy to work with, fair, and knowledgeable. I personally think that it is a glitch for which there is no fix barring replacing the ABS module(?), but at least I'll get it documented.

So you've had the brake problem, bg? Now this is REALLY getting interesting. Thanks, everyone, and I hope that this gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Ford is the kind of volume dealer that can deal with a little bad publicity with one model like the Explorer.

But Toyota sells more Camries than Subaru sells cars. A problem like this one could be devastating.

We're having a local meet on Thursday, I think. I'm going to talk to some of the guys there, to see if they've had problems, and try to get a ride in a car so I can see what it feels like.

Kevin

I looked at the nhsta.gov site and I still only see 1 or 2 complaints about this. I'm looking under consumer complaints. Am I looking in the wrong spot.

Has anyone called their hotline where I assume you can talk to a live person: 1-888-dash-2-dot.

V