The owner's manual says that holding the shifter when you're not shifting can damage the transmission.

Could someone explain how?

I did that for years with my Merkur and Geo Metro and never had any trouble.

-Dave

It was my understanding that resting your hand on the shifter causes excess wear on the syncros and other portions of the transmission.

Also if you notice the rally drivers who use regular transmissions (vs a dog box or other $$$$ device) keep two hands on the wheel at all times, only removing a hand to shift or yank on the e-brake. Then the hand goes straight back to the wheel.

I think keeping two hands on the wheel is for better control, not cuz they worry about the synchros. Somehow, I get the feeling if that was the kind of thing they worried aobut, they wouldn't be rallying...but anyway, I'm also a lil curious about whether just the weight of your hand is enough to put a significant amount of wear on the synchros?

It causes wear on the shifter forks.

I used to own a 93 Sentra SE-R, a car famous for its "fifth gear popout". This phenomenon was attributed to the driver holding his hand on the shifter, eventually bending the shift fork enough so it wouldn't stay in place.

Never heard of an other specific cars with this problem. Just don't rest your hand with too much pressure.

lb
www.trancelab.com

Yes, holding on to the shifter will screw up your gears, been there done that. Think about it - the shifter is connected to the transmission at all times... If you put pressure on it, you're putting excess pressure on the transmission.

I had an old '84 GL Wagon that had screwed up gears - the mechanic blamed it on that kind of thing.

And yes, when you drive you should have both hands on the wheels unless you're shifting. It's the only way to get the most information out of the vehicle.

I've trained myself to drive strictlly two-handed over the past few months. After your muscles get used to it, there's no other way to drive.

Built rally gearboxes don't have synchros to worry about. Straight cut gears. Someone yell if I'm wrong.

Shift fork issue is what I heard. Plus it's a lazy habit. Both hands on the wheel for me.

gi.

I am someone who tends to keep their hand on the shifter. It’s really a bad habit . I assume it is slowly wearing the connectors in the shifting linkage which in turn , over a period of time, makes it harder to shift properly. I don’t really know. This was just an assumption.

One word.

Yes

It would probably never do anything to bad to the car. I've done it for years as well...BUT I'm actually trying not to do it in this one. So I just lightly rest my fibngers on it.

Never knew there was so much of movement for poeple to drive with 2 hands. Wait, are you guys Driver's ed teachers? :lol:

but that is where they learned to drive. ;)

It definately does!

I had a 98 5-spd Chev blazer before my WRX and I constantly used the shifter for a handle while cornering. One day while in the middle of a shift the bushing in my shifter went on me. That was fun!

Now I'm both hands on the wheel. Plus I put in 5-points so I don't need to hold on to anything to keep me in place now.

be-it drag racer, rallier, F1, CART, NASCAR, Touring Car, whatever. Two hands ALWAYS on the steering - hand on shifter only when needed to shift.

They do this for more of a "control" reason than "wear" reason - two hands on the wheel = better control over the vehicle.

Why do you think all of the new WRC cars, F1, CART, etc. have shifters that are either of paddle style or with the lever very close to the wheel? So that the driver can get their hand to and from the shifter with as little time as possible to maintain full control over their vehicle.

Oh yeah, here's one more reason -- it's just waaay more comfortable with two hands on the wheel @ 9 and 3 with elbows slightly bent. Gives me a sense of confidence and well connectedness to my car. Helped me avoid TWO near-accidents this week to!

LaterZ!
Darren!!

yup...i do it.

bad habit that i'm working on breaking.

trying to keep the 2 hands on the wheel.

even when I had my AT Grand Prix I still kept my hand on the shifter thingy.

Two hands it'll be from now on! I do like the control of using 2 hands when driving.

~V

I heard it makes hair grow on your knuckles!

I've been doing that on my old car and once I heard about that I've trained myself not to....now I hold the e-brake......I always need something to rest my hands on.

I have done this with every car I have every owned or driven for that matter, and have not had one problem yet. Guess I'm just lucky.
:D

Originally posted by davesill
The owner's manual says that holding the shifter when you're not shifting can damage the transmission.

Could someone explain how?

I did that for years with my Merkur and Geo Metro and never had any trouble.

-Dave

Because the shifter is a direct link to your transmission, putting any force (side-to-side, front-to-back, etc) will be bad for it, causing abnormal wear. You may not ever notice it, but why keep your hand there? It should be on the wheel and if not on the wheel, then comfortably at your side, ready to shift or assist with steering.

Originally posted by Idjiit
I've trained myself to drive strictlly two-handed over the past few months. After your muscles get used to it, there's no other way to drive.

I too trained myself to drive two handed over this past summer and I must agree there's no other way to drive. It almost seems scary to me thinking about driving with one hand on the wheel.

Two hands on wheel=better control. Just another step in fixing the nut behind the wheel.

I thought the same thing, especially since I could move the shifter slightly forward or backward when in gear. (My friend even said to me 'isn't it funny that you can move the shifter a little and then feel the vibrating?) So I thought that play was the synchros.

Since then, I've changed the rubber sloppy shifter bushings with Kartboy bushings and now the shifter is pretty solidly in place with no free play. So the pressure asserted on the stock shifter is apparently going to the rubber bushing.

Now I don't think I "feel" the synchros when I place light pressure on the shifter, there's just no play.

Funny, I used to use my Escort's(floppy) shifter for a handle too. Then during an autocross, I went to shift to 2nd, and pulled the whole shifter/boot/lever off.... DOH! Eh, so much for American cars:)

SWITCH, amazing how a fairly new vehicle would have a bad problem like that. Oh wait, that was a GM. Not amazing really.


Its not your fault, GM has serious problems, thats all.
;):lol:

Hmm. I'm not convinced.

Several people have claimed that it causes wear on synchros or forks. Someone claimed it actually bends forks. Another said it ruined his bushings. There's not exactly widespread agreement here on the mechanism of the damage. Surely if transmissions can handle regular, vigorous shifting, they should have no trouble with a hand on the knob that's not applying force--and I'm not talking about holding the shifter for support during turns.

I'm also not terribly interested in the arguments for keeping both hands on the wheel. I'm a big boy, and I'm capable of deciding whether I want my hand on the wheel or the shifter. If it's so important to keep two hands on the wheel, I guess you should have an automatic. :)

So, lacking more convincing or authoritative information, I'm going to have to consider this one an old wive's tale--especially given my personal anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

-Dave

Dude, driving with one hand will catch up to you one day. You'll go around a corner, hit a pothole, and the wheel WILL rip itself out of your hand. By the time your regain control you will be in the next lane or off the road.

And yes, resting your hand on the shifter will screw it up eventually. Take a look at www.howstuffworks.com and look at manual transmissions. If you don't bend the gates, the synchros will have problems. The reason you see people saying so many different things about what happens from resting your hand on the shifter is because a lot of bad things can occur from resting your hand on the shifter :)

while you drive / idle, you'll notice that the shift knob moves and vibrates...i suppose that holding it would restrain the vibrations and movements, causing wear on the parts that would normally be free to move by holding them in place.

Just thought I'd mention that when I rest my hand on the stick, I do it gently. However, putting enough pressure on it to the point that it wants to get out of gear is surely bad. I figured most people don't use it as a handle around turns. :lol:

i went to a race driving school, while i was still in europe and they thought everyone to always have 2 hands on the wheel for one and only one reason, when in emergency maneuvers you have to steer quickly, if you only have one hand on the wheel, you will do a sudden, and way to fast movement of the wheels, which will send you in a very hard to control skid, on the other hand, if you have both hands on the wheel, both your hands will be more coordinated and have a smoother movement to the wheels, which as you all know is always better.
by the way, if you ever took that second hand of the wheel for any reason while driving, except for shifting of course, you would have to run one lap around the track....

Originally posted by davesill
Hmm. I'm not convinced.

So, lacking more convincing or authoritative information, I'm going to have to consider this one an old wive's tale--especially given my personal anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

-Dave

People have told you from their own experiences that resting your hand can cause damage. If that's not enough for you, ask a mechanic and he'll tell you the same. I heard it on car talk, that's good enough for me. If you're dead set on blowing us all off, more power to you. You were warned. We tried to help, don't come whining to us if something happens.

Why even ask for advice if you aren't going to listen to reason?

Originally posted by supermarkus


People have told you from their own experiences that resting your hand can cause damage.

Yes, but what they've said is not consistent. Does it wear synchros? Does it bend forks? Does it ruin bushings? If so, how? I could slam the gears all day long and not bend the fork, but lightly resting my hand on the shifter occasionally is going to bend it? I think not.


If that's not enough for you, ask a mechanic and he'll tell you the same. I heard it on car talk, that's good enough for me.

What was the explanation on Car Talk? Or did they vaguely allude to "damage" or "wear"? Did they talk about what kind of knob holding was bad? Surely lightly holding is better than death-gripping. Does one have to treat the shifter like a hot coal, touching it only as briefly as possible lest they damage their transmission?


If you're dead set on blowing us all off, more power to you. You were warned. We tried to help, don't come whining to us if something happens.

Why even ask for advice if you aren't going to listen to reason?

I'm a scientist and I don't accept assertions that can't be clearly explained or demonstrated. I have personal experience that shows that some shifter holding seems to cause no damage: 100,000+ miles on a Merkur XR4ti and 200,000 miles on a Geo Metro with no transmission problems and only one clutch replacement, on the Metro.

I didn't ask the question because I wanted to ignore the responses. I asked the question because I wanted to find out if the claim in the owner's manual was true. What I've seen here hasn't convinced me that it is.

Will I start death-gripping my shifter now? No, of course not. Will I treat like it's got cooties? No. I'll lightly hold it occasionally when I expect to be shifting soon--unless I learn that it really is bad, at which time I'll adjust my habits according to the facts.

-Dave

Originally posted by davesill


Yes, but what they've said is not consistent. Does it wear synchros? Does it bend forks? Does it ruin bushings? If so, how? I could slam the gears all day long and not bend the fork, but lightly resting my hand on the shifter occasionally is going to bend it? I think not.



What was the explanation on Car Talk? Or did they vaguely allude to "damage" or "wear"? Did they talk about what kind of knob holding was bad? Surely lightly holding is better than death-gripping. Does one have to treat the shifter like a hot coal, touching it only as briefly as possible lest they damage their transmission?



I'm a scientist and I don't accept assertions that can't be clearly explained or demonstrated. I have personal experience that shows that some shifter holding seems to cause no damage: 100,000+ miles on a Merkur XR4ti and 200,000 miles on a Geo Metro with no transmission problems and only one clutch replacement, on the Metro.

I didn't ask the question because I wanted to ignore the responses. I asked the question because I wanted to find out if the claim in the owner's manual was true. What I've seen here hasn't convinced me that it is.

Will I start death-gripping my shifter now? No, of course not. Will I treat like it's got cooties? No. I'll lightly hold it occasionally when I expect to be shifting soon--unless I learn that it really is bad, at which time I'll adjust my habits according to the facts.

-Dave

Whoa there Dave! :eek:
That really came off as condescending, I hope you didn't mean to sound like a pompass, tenured professor, that hides himself from the real world in academia. ;)
I'm a scientist too, but that doesn't mean I can't listen to reason. How is this?
"Several things can go wrong if you rest your hand on the shifter all the time including...{insert all previously mentioned damage}..."

The damage described on car talk was ruined synchros on a fleet of chevy work trucks with manual trannies. The cars refused to stay in gear during engine braking and needed to be carefully rev matched to shift into second gear. They asked the driver if she rested her hand on the shifter, she said all the time, and they made their diagnosis. Is that clear enough?

Bending forks... consider the mechanical advantage we have from the actual shift lever compared to moving the shifter bar without the shift lever. When I installed my short throw shifter I tried to shift without the shift lever and it was surprisingly difficult. Yes, the force we exert while resting our hands on the lever is very minimal. But the lever multiplies that force many times over, I'm sure our resident physicists can do the calculations to our satisfaction. That force, over time MAY, cause excessive wear. This is what the manual warns against. The possibility of causing damage

Not everyone will exhibit the same problem because of the multitude of things that may happen to the transmission from the added strain. That is why there is no general "consensus" on what happens to the transmission.These are all potential problems that can be directly attributed to habitually resting your hand on the shift lever. The owners manual is giving you fair warning about the potential problem.
Imagine going into your dealer with a problematic tranny and they refuse to do the warranty work because they determined that you habitually rest your hand on the shifter and that caused "excessive wear". Wouldn't that be a bitch?

Of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate. This may never happen to any of us. But if damage can be prevented by just small adjustments in our behavior, isn't it worth the effort? Sorry for the soapbox speech, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I over-reacted to your opinion.

Originally posted by supermarkus


Whoa there Dave! :eek:
That really came off as condescending, I hope you didn't mean to sound like a pompass, tenured professor, that hides himself from the real world in academia. ;)


No, I'm a real world kind of scientist.

The damage described on car talk was ruined synchros on a fleet of chevy work trucks with manual trannies. The cars refused to stay in gear during engine braking and needed to be carefully rev matched to shift into second gear. They asked the driver if she rested her hand on the shifter, she said all the time, and they made their diagnosis. Is that clear enough?

Yes, thanks. I find find a claim of abnormal synchro wear fairly plausible.


Bending forks... consider the mechanical advantage we have from the actual shift lever compared to moving the shifter bar without the shift lever. When I installed my short throw shifter I tried to shift without the shift lever and it was surprisingly difficult. Yes, the force we exert while resting our hands on the lever is very minimal. But the lever multiplies that force many times over, I'm sure our resident physicists can do the calculations to our satisfaction. That force, over time MAY, cause excessive wear. This is what the manual warns against. The possibility of causing damage

If slamming gears doesn't bend forks, no amount of hand resting will do it. This I don't buy.


Of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate. This may never happen to any of us. But if damage can be prevented by just small adjustments in our behavior, isn't it worth the effort?

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But being a rational person, I prefer to modify my behavior based on fact, not supposition. This is a pretty trivial example, but there are thousands of things that people will suggest that might be beneficial. I don't have the time or energy to implement them all--assuming they aren't contradictory--without having reason to believe they'll work.


Sorry for the soapbox speech, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I over-reacted to your opinion.

Thanks, and I'm sorry I overreacted to your overreaction. Are we cool? :cool:

-Dave

Whoa, good thing you two calmed down...it's dangerous to have two mad scientists! :lol:

Sorry, couldn't help it, must be in the Halloween mood. :)

supermarkus,

Your response was so well conceived and rational, I read it twice..and it still brought a smile to my face. :)

As for those who are "real world type of scientist(s)," I respectfully propose that many advances in science and medicine have come about from observation, anecdotes and a free exchange of experiences. Isn't that what we're doing here?

davesill: I understand your desire for a mechanically cogent explanation for the "hand on the transmission" controversy, but your response was so pompous that it only served as entertainment value.

Do you need "scientific" proof or does a plausible mechanical explanation from a survey of car enthusiasts count for anything?

If you're truly interested in the issue, I suggest that you puruse through the archives of www.se-r.net. As previously stated, the 1991-1994 Nissan SE-R had an infamous 5th gear popout problem. I think that you'll be satisfied with the conclusion that longterm driver pressure on the shifter led to the problem in many cases.

I also found it amusing that you would use the "I am a scientist" position at the same time you make your counter-argument with an equally weak anecdote. I'm glad that you went 200,000 miles in a Geo Metro while leaning on your shifter, but don't demand a higher burden of proof from fellow car enthusiast sharing their own experiences.

Dean
I'm not a scientist, but I have a few extra letters after my last name. :) )

Originally posted by DeanO
As for those who are "real world type of scientist(s)," I respectfully propose that many advances in science and medicine have come about from observation, anecdotes and a free exchange of experiences. Isn't that what we're doing here?


Yes, exactly. And my conclusion, based on the collected anecdotes, observations, and hypotheses in this thread was that there was no convincing evidence for the original claim.


davesill: I understand your desire for a mechanically cogent explanation for the "hand on the transmission" controversy, but your response was so pompous that it only served as entertainment value.

And that response is so condecending that it only serves to insult. But I'm glad I contributed to your amusement.


Do you need "scientific" proof or does a plausible mechanical explanation from a survey of car enthusiasts count for anything?

If you're truly interested in the issue, I suggest that you puruse through the archives of www.se-r.net. As previously stated, the 1991-1994 Nissan SE-R had an infamous 5th gear popout problem. I think that you'll be satisfied with the conclusion that longterm driver pressure on the shifter led to the problem in many cases.

OK, I went there and did that. Thanks for the pointer. However, I must say I'm surprised that you think this bolsters the anti-shifter-holding argument. The Nissan problem was clearly a design flaw. Nissan even fixed it in later models.

Here's a quote from http://www.se-r-list.org/archives/1999/1999-01/msg00745.html:


I can't seem to find any sort of correlation between 5th gear popout
incidents. For a while, everybody thought it was caused by resting your
hand on the shifter all the time, but that's been essentially disproven
by the large number of people who got popout but said they never rested
their hand on the shifter.


I also found it amusing that you would use the "I am a scientist" position at the same time you make your counter-argument with an equally weak anecdote. I'm glad that you went 200,000 miles in a Geo Metro while leaning on your shifter, but don't demand a higher burden of proof from fellow car enthusiast sharing their own experiences.

The problem is that transmissions break all the time--whether you hold the shifter or not. The fact that Jim Bob's tranny fell out can't be attributed to his knob holding based simply on the fact that he held the knob--which everyone knows is bad for trannies.

But I do know for a fact that my knob holding didn't result in obvious damage because my trannies never broke. Sure, it's possible that I damaged them both but not enough to require repair, but that doesn't seem too likely--or at least it implies that the knob holding effect is minor, with my style of knob holding.

Tell you what... I've got to take my old truck back to the transmission repair joint for an adjustment (rebuilt automatic). While I'm there, I'll ask about shifter holding damage. I'll report back in a few weeks.

-Dave

hey!

i'm not a scientist, but i stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

:D :lol:

jk ya'll. :)

Good discussion. I've enjoyed following this thread for real.

~V

in neutral i have the habit of moving the shifter left and right really fast, like im just playing with you know ?

west --> east ---> west ---> east motion

is that really bad?

neither way, i'm not going to do it anymore
just want to know if it was bad...

Thanks for this post - it was informative

Today when I was driving, I was actually trying not to rest my hand on the shifter. It felt kinda weird, but now that I'm conscious of the fact that I'm doing it will probably help to wean myself of this habit. If it's good enough for rally drivers, it's good enough for me.

Anyone driving a performance car should have 2 hands on the wheel. It just feels so much better. I used to drive my Niaasn PU with my hand resting on the stick all the time though.

its comfortable putting hand on wheel and switching gears with just my right hand

when going straight that is...

Is it just as bad to rest your hand on the shifter when you're at a stoplight, waiting for it to turn green? I know it can't be as bad as using it for support during sharp corners (?!?!) but I can't see it being overly damaging if it's only at stoplights while you're stopped. :D

--jeff

I have to agree with davesill, I just can't fathom the gross damage that I can be imparting to my tranny just by resting my hand on the knob. And all of this talk about having both hands on the wheel for safety/control at all times bugs me too; I can't stand being more than a second or two away from an upshift or downshift while I'm driving. Controlling the velocity of your car is just as important as controlling the direction of travel, in my opinion.

Going from driving an automatic to a stick has made me paranoid about being able to control the car with the throttle as well as the steering wheel. I keep a hand on the wheel and another at the stick, and I personally will risk the tranny damage for the day that I avoid an accident beacuse I was able to shift the car into a lower gear quick enough to get out of the way of others.

I think it depends the amount of pressure on shifter, but think it doesn't really hurt the tranny that much if you are lightly resting your hand on it (i.e. between shifts while accelerating/decelerating) I do think that prolonged "hanging" on it can damage the tranny though. I have always owned a stick, always will (hopefully) and the only problems I had were on my first 2 cars. My Mercedes ('74 240D) I had to double clutch going into second, and if you tried to romp on it in third, it occasionally popped out. I also had an '86 Trooper, and the only problem there was the stick would wobble in gear a mile each way. No one specifically said that it was from resting my hand on the shifter, but that was the only thing that came to mind. Ever since I have rested my hands in various places :alien: Always dependant upon weather and road conditions, but anywhere from the e-brake, the cup holder next to it, the armrest, or the wheel.

So, basically, I think that the damage *should* be negligible if all your doing is stop-n-go light-to-light driving where you are constantly shifting, but cruising down the road, yeah, would be better to put it somewhere else.

Just my thoughts on it.:)

I just rest my hand on the edge of the passenger seat. However., I have noticed in the RS that I tend to drive with two hands automatically. Maybe it's just cause I need an alignment so the car follows the road when not controlled agressively by me. Luckily, I got the spacer washer for my strut today ($15 for a washer, dont get me started) so I can disassemble it and re-assemble with all parts and then go get an alignment.

Heh....left wrist on top of the wheel, right elbow on the center console, seat waaay back and my hat on backwords. :rolleyes: :D

Hands in the 9-3 position, seat far back(I'm 6'3") and only takes right hand off wheel when shifting. :alien: