Hi all,

I heard this is the best place on the web for subie related racing info... the motorsports forum here on Nasioc.

I've posted this before on other forums (i.e. ClubWRX) but never really got the feedback that I wanted... only 1 or 2 guys really helped out.

Currently, I have

Whiteline sperical front endlinks
Whiteline rear endlinks
Whiteline 27mm 2 way adjustable front sway bar (SOLID)
Whiteline 27mm 3 way adjustable rear sway bar (SOLID)
MY04+ Subaru OEM sway bar mounts
STI replica front strut tower bar
STI replica rear strut tower bar

I want to complete the suspension within this next year... that includes tires and springs/struts or coilovers etc..

EDIT: SInce the beginning of this thread, I have added the following parts (to save you all from reading everything, unless you really want to :) )

5Zigen FN01R-C 17x8 et 48
Falken Azenis RT615s 235/40/17
Whiteline Steering Rack Bushings
Gutted stock uppipe
Hawk HPS brake pads


------------------------------------
First up: rims and tires.
My current DD setup and autox setup is 205/55/16 pirelli pzero neros all seasons (I know, not ideal, but whatever... started autoxing after I had them already)

I was originally planning on going with stock rims and 225/45/16 or 225/50/16 tires (hankooks or falkens), but after the last thread, I am keeping my options open... basically, what happened is that I hit a curb in an auto-x and now I only have 3 extra OEM rims... since i have to buy a replacement to run stock tire-ish sizes, i figure I ought to consider other sized rims.

So basically I concluded on the other forum that i either go with stock rims OR I go all out and get myself a set of 17x8s with 235/40/17, which seems to be a pretty popular STX setup. I am also interesteed in 16x8s with the 245/45/16 hankooks, but that is the only tire available in that size, so it might be a risky choice.... no matter what I need new rims and will need to roll the rear fenders.... so right now I have a few additional questions:

1. In looking for rims I found this 17x8 5x100 48et rim on edgeracing.com. It is $134 per rim but is a bit heavy (20.2 lbs). My question is, where do I draw the line between a good, economical choice in the right size and something that is the same size but lighter but more expensive? Basically, If I pay about $30-50 more per rim I could probably get a 17lb rim... so what weight difference makes it worth it? will I even notice the difference?

2. The above rim is pretty cheap, but Rotas come close too.... I probably should consider the Rota Slipstreams in 17x8, anyone know how much they weigh?

3. I will take any and all suggestions for light, cheap rims. I really dont want to spend that much, but that is sort of hard to do for rims and tires. Obviously the most economical thing is to pick up another stocker and run a smaller sized tire, but it seems that the increased rim width will help more than anything (am I right about this?)... even if I ran 225s on 16x8s or 17xs, they would be a lot better than 225s on 16x6.5, right?

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Now on to suspension...

This was my primary concern, but now it has moved down on my list as I really need tires bad (my daily driver/autox pirellis Pzero Nero M&S's are getting very bald). So I want suspension, but tires are a need more than a want, so suspension is more on the back burner for now... yet I am still researching it to find a good setup for when i get more cash (summertime maybe).

So here is what my car handles like - it feels a lot like my friend's cars that have coilovers - very little body roll, and I usually beat them in autox (they both drive fairly modified Jettas with full suspension). I really benefit from the huge sway bars... however my only complaints are as follows:

1. the car gets tailhappy in higher speed slaloms (anything above 1st gear). if it is more than 3 transitions or so, it is pretty easy to feel the rear end wanting to come out.... I've spun it twice in competitions, once at the track in a 50mph slalom and another time in a slalom in an autox that was very tight after coming through a higher speed section in mid-2nd gear. My theory is that the stock shocks are not strong/fast enough to dampen the quicker moving big sway bars... my proposed solution is better shocks or coilovers that can handle bigger bars... then maybe it wont be tailhappy. It would be nice to be able to slalom all day with the car never really getting unbalanced.

2. The car rotates if I don't push it too hard, however it will still understeer if I reach the limit, especially in sweepers. At full stiffness (29f/29r) the car does better but I can still notice a hint of understeer at times (something that as I driver I am getting better at not encountering or avoiding, i.e. straightening the wheel if I am going to fast and slowing down before I turn, instead of just continuing to understeer). however, it would be nice for it to be neutral or maybe even slightly oversteer if I enter a corner too fast. power on oversteer would be nice to achieve, but i dont even know if that is possible with AWD...

So for suspension, I have one of three options in mind:

1. entry level coilovers, such as the Helix DNAs or Megan Racing coilovers... both are 8k/6k rates and are about $1k. both are dampening and ride height adjustable. The megans come in 12k/10k for the same price but that's probably just a tad bit too stiff for the road...(more on this later)

2. KYB AGX struts mated to STI v7 pink springs, with camber plates. however these, like the coilovers, ARE NOT wagon specific and will make me lose 0.7 degrees of negative camber up front. that sucks!!!

3. Koni Inserts with ground control coilovers and camber plates... i prefer this option the most, as it allows me to design the suspension completely in terms of the length and rate of all the springs. it also allows me to keep the stock shock body and actually maintain decent camber without having to use a longer sedan strut.

My primary concern is attainging a good allignment range (I would like to run 3degrees neg. camber up front, as I heard this is great for autox. for a wagon, it is probably difficult to attain, but I would love to hear your feedback.

My car is 100% daily driver as well. I know that the 12k/10k megans with the 17x8s and 235/40 would probably make the car close to national-type setup (I know the coilovers aren't great compared to others but I can't spend oodles of money on this, I am just a student). However, with such rates would i even be able to drive the car on the road? i also am worried about coilovers getting blown, so I almost would prefer a setup that is good but is reliable at the same time... once the suspension is in and adjusted i really dont want to have to replace it... want to just do it right the first time and be done with it :)

If coilovers can be reliable and give me decent allignment #s, I prefer them, as they are cheaper and are an all-in-one package.

--------------------------------------------
Power

Currently the subie is stock here.

I really see no need for more power... I've been beaten by saturns with awesome suspension.... I don't really run big autox courses (most are 1st gear with some 2nd) so my power really is never an advantage. however, i HATE courses that utilize 2nd for just small sections... I have a hard time getting it back into 1st... i can do it but feel like I am just wasting time doing so... so my theory here is to do specific mods that will give me more torque with less lag so that 2nd gear can be used for tighter courses.... thus not necessitating the downshift.

-uppipe (this might happen soon, either OE gutted or STI OE pipe)
-crank pulley (for more low end torque before the turbo spools)
-smaller diameter tire (this would make me have to shift sooner than 35mph, but would the added "torque/gearing" in second really be worth it? would second gear suffice for most courses?
-other mods that increase low end?

later on down the road
-catted DP with manual cutout AFTER the cat (would this be STX legal?) I see it as just a means to a "cheap" turboback since I don't want my car to be super loud on the road anyways.

so.... ideas?

17 x 8 Rota + suspension option #3:D

You'll hear a few different opinions, and I really don't know what your budget is but I'll try to help out with what makes sense for a student who still wants to autoX.

1st off, you need to address your brakes. Get yourself a set of hawk HP pads, goodrich lines, and dot4 fluid to increase the boiling point. Go check out Ken at WRXBrakes in the vendor area. He's a brake guru around here and owns a wagon that he personally tracks himself. He'll put together a package for you that make sense. Don't forget to tell him I sent you. ;)

17x8s with 235/40/17
Yup, that's what you want... and buy the lightest set you can afford. Adding rotational weight is one of the worst things you can do for performance.


2. KYB AGX struts mated to STI v7 pink springs, with camber plates. however these, like the coilovers, ARE NOT wagon specific and will make me lose 0.7 degrees of negative camber up front. that sucks!!!

Sorry, but that's wrong. I've got AGXs on my wagon. You need to get the GC8 fronts for proper camber correction.


My primary concern is attainging a good allignment range (I would like to run 3degrees neg. camber up front, as I heard this is great for autox. for a wagon, it is probably difficult to attain, but I would love to hear your feedback.

Eccentric camber bolts can get you 3 degrees, and if you lower the car you'll need to get a set for the rear too. I'm running 2-1/4 degneg. up front and 1 deg neg in the rear right now. If you're running it mostly on the street, I wouldn't recomend more than that because of excessive tire wear. But that's up to you.

IMO, camber plates would be ideal so you can change your settings for street and track as needed.

And if you're student on a budget, don't get coilovers. AGXs, Konis, (or JDM inverted struts) with pink springs would be ideal.



-uppipe (this might happen soon, either OE gutted or STI OE pipe)

I'll sell you mine that I just gutted. That will help you with the downtime of the swap since it's pretty involved. And do the DP at the same time while you have everything apart. You don't want to do this twice. PM me if you're interested in my UP. ;)


later on down the road
-catted DP with manual cutout AFTER the cat (would this be STX legal?) Sorry, the cutout is not legal.

You may want to look into the 6gun balljoint extensions later on also. I believe they're STX legal, and will help your camber curve, especially if you touch the struts and springs to go lower.

I also forgot to mention...

You want a slight amount of oversteer for autoX so you can properly get the ass around and set up for the next turn. Understeer is the enemy. Try going with the lower swaybar setting in the front and a stiffer setting in the rear. Then run a lower tire pressure in the front and more in the rear. I know... it seems like you should do the opposite, but trust, me, it's the way to get oversteer. Even setting it up neutral is better than for understeer. And you'll need to play around with the tire pressure in relation to your suspension setup to find the sweet spot.

Good luck, have fun, and be safe.

-Chris

You'll hear a few different opinions, and I really don't know what your budget is but I'll try to help out with what makes sense for a student who still wants to autoX.

1st off, you need to address your brakes. Get yourself a set of hawk HP pads, goodrich lines, and dot4 fluid to increase the boiling point. Go check out Ken at WRXBrakes in the vendor area. He's a brake guru around here and owns a wagon that he personally tracks himself. He'll put together a package for you that make sense. Don't forget to tell him I sent you. ;)

Incorrect - stock brakes are just fine for AX.

Yup, that's what you want... and buy the lightest set you can afford. Adding rotational weight is one of the worst things you can do for performance.

Top cars at Nationals were running Rotas or 5Zigen, both cheap.

Eccentric camber bolts can get you 3 degrees, and if you lower the car you'll need to get a set for the rear too. I'm running 2-1/4 degneg. up front and 1 deg neg in the rear right now. If you're running it mostly on the street, I wouldn't recomend more than that because of excessive tire wear. But that's up to you.

IMO, camber plates would be ideal so you can change your settings for street and track as needed.

And if you're student on a budget, don't get coilovers. AGXs, Konis, (or JDM inverted struts) with pink springs would be ideal.

Camber bolts alone will not get you 3 deg. You need camber plates. If you're on a budget, just get springs, camber plates and OEM shocks. Save for Konis later.


You may want to look into the 6gun balljoint extensions later on also. I believe they're STX legal, and will help your camber curve, especially if you touch the struts and springs to go lower.

Not legal in STX

do not get choice #1 for suspension. all those cheapo coilovers are complete crap.

i have a nationals winning suspension for sale too if your intersted. KC used this same setup on his STX winning wagon.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1065107

RA's are not very friendly at all on the street. heck my flex's arn't that friendly too. I vote agx or koni set up a few people locally here had good luck with them

do not get choice #1 for suspension. all those cheapo coilovers are complete crap.

i have a nationals winning suspension for sale too if your intersted. KC used this same setup on his STX winning wagon.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1065107

That is an AWESOME deal for those and they are a great setup when they are dialed in like those are. They were on teh car I drove two years ago and even though they weren't dialed in they were a nice setup. Yeah they are harsh on the street but honestly if you want the setup for STX it isn't going to be super nice on the street but you can still daily drive it.

Of course I'd just sell the wagon and buy Jason's complete car. That is one great setup he has on his car and is wonderfully setup.

That is an AWESOME deal for those and they are a great setup when they are dialed in like those are. They were on teh car I drove two years ago and even though they weren't dialed in they were a nice setup. Yeah they are harsh on the street but honestly if you want the setup for STX it isn't going to be super nice on the street but you can still daily drive it.

Of course I'd just sell the wagon and buy Jason's complete car. That is one great setup he has on his car and is wonderfully setup.

i dont think that they are super harsh on the street, but i like riding on stiff suspensions.:D they are definitly not harsh enough not to daily drive. all of us (me, kc, hoppe, etc) used to drive on these to and from events back when we didnt have trailers.

of couse the optimal thing would be jsut to buy my car;) ... but just giving him some options

Agreed, back and forth to work, or back and forth to events, the RAs with 10K/12K were fine to drive on... expecially ont he same routes back and forth to work... you know where the 'gotchas' are.

Example: I used to make sure I was at least in the middle lane going over this one portion of highway near my house... it was a bridge over a stream. The expansion 'dropoff' on the other side was fine for a normally sprung car.... but on the wagon... *whoomp* it felt like the car dropped a foot or two. (It was just sudden). You feel everything... but with stock seats as a cushion, it was not violent to the body. Onramps... offramps... solid. Minor bumps... solid.

--kC

Wait a week or so and KC's old RA's will be available without the wagon attached. And add another vote to the "10/12's aren't too harsh for commuting" tally. On my commute, I eventually knew where I could and where I couldn't sip my coffee. Otherwise, no big deal.

I'll look into those RAs but a bit out of my price range. plus like i said before i need to get tires first. out of curiosity - you mentioned that there are 5 sets of springs with them... you mean you have 20 springs total and they are rates 6,7,8,9,and 10k? i take it the coilovers are dampening adjustable and ride height, or are they preload and rebound instead? how many miles do you have on them, and what are you estimating the rebuild needs for the shocks (how often and how much does it cost?)

Chrisarella - The KYBs also sound really good to me. I had heard that the GC8 fronts work better than normal KYBs, but I also heard that they arent a real complete solution. Do aftermarket eccentric bolts work different when compared to stock eccentric bolts to get better allignment? or did you just replace the second normal bolt with an eccentric bolt?

Chrisarella - what tire pressures do you run? I usually run 40f/44r and that seems to be better than if I flip it (the only thing I ever tried). Sometimes i run 42f/46r but that was once and it didnt really seem to help any.

why is the cutout illegal in STX? I see no reason why if it comes after the cat... it would basically be like running the car with no cat-back exhaust attached, which is basically the same as going out and buying the whole 3" system. as mentioned before I want my car to be quiet on the road, so that is why I dont want an actual full exhaust. Cops here are really anal about that.

thanks for all the feedback and keep it coming...

Most sites have a decibel limit, having a cutout would most likely go above that limit. Locally I belive the limit is 95 or 98 db.

That, and the exhaust must exit behind the driver.

Chrisarella - The KYBs also sound really good to me. I had heard that the GC8 fronts work better than normal KYBs, but I also heard that they arent a real complete solution.
I think there was a misunderstanding. The GC8 front is the version of KYB AGXs you'd buy for the front of your wagon because the mounting hole locations on the bottom of the strut are the same... along with the GD sedan rears which are the same fit on the wagon... so you'll have 4 perfect fitting AGXs when you're done.

Do aftermarket eccentric bolts work different when compared to stock eccentric bolts to get better allignment? or did you just replace the second normal bolt with an eccentric bolt?

You replace your stock eccentric bolts with the aftermarket ones.

Chrisarella - what tire pressures do you run? I usually run 40f/44r and that seems to be better than if I flip it (the only thing I ever tried). Sometimes i run 42f/46r but that was once and it didnt really seem to help any.

I have 225/40/18 Khumo Ecstas so I think we'd run different pressures. But for reference, I run 36 in the front and 40 in the rear.

why is the cutout illegal in STX? I see no reason why if it comes after the cat... it would basically be like running the car with no cat-back exhaust attached, which is basically the same as going out and buying the whole 3" system. as mentioned before I want my car to be quiet on the road, so that is why I dont want an actual full exhaust. Cops here are really anal about that.
KC and boundy3 are both right. It doesn't matter that the cutout is behind a cat, the noise level and exiting positing are both an issue. You may find an event that will allow it, but not here on LI, NY. And I believe the SCCA rules says that you're exhaust must pass local sound and emission laws to compete in street classes.

i have flex's for sale. pm me if you're interested.

where did you find those big sway bars?
more specifically the front
all I've been able to find for the wagon is 22mm adjustable

Check out this thread for info on the KYB AGX GC8's on wagons...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=836598&highlight=wagon+kyb+agx+gc8

where did you find those big sway bars?
more specifically the front
all I've been able to find for the wagon is 22mm adjustable


the front is an STI bar... I'm one of the few guys running it on a wagon. works if you use spherical endlinks which allow better fitment. Got it from JnJ Associates. http://www.jnjassociates.biz/

As for the cutout.... I was gonna do it at the end of the downpipe (which should be after the driver) or even closer to the muffler... there is a perfect point right where the pipe curves before the muffler that we can weld it in. I dont think it would be that loud. I ran the car w/out a muffler at an auto-x once and it sounded really good, but wasnt that loud. with a high flow cat i am sure it would sound similar, as the cat and turbo still muffle sound. Even if it doesnt add that much performance gain, it is always good to be able to hear the engine better just so you know where you are at in the rev band. the car is pretty quiet stock... but i think hearing the boxer rumble has some kind of positive psychological effect on me too.

I've heard some ass-loud cars locally, and if they are ok to run mine definitely would be... who knows, though, maybe the wrx would be really damn loud if i actually had a high flow cat instead. i'll have to try it.

And I believe the SCCA rules says that you're exhaust must pass local sound and emission laws to compete in street classes.Not really. The exhaust on any ST car has to be legal to the rules... (both the rulebook and event site... quieter is better!) not to the local laws.

However... the local/state laws come into play at inspection time or if you live in a state that cares about exhaust sound and you get pulled over (but only if you're going to drive the car on the road.) That has nothing to do with SCCA rules.

It's a balancing act; some states are more lenient than others. So in effect, a Cali WRX would have a harder time competing nationally if they 'had to' follow local rules vs a state without a care how loud a car is. It wouldn't be fair on a national rules level to say that you have to compete in a car thats set up to local laws... heck, up here in New England with events in a couple different states with different laws each, it would put a NH car at a bigger advantage over a MA car... since MA follows the CA emission standard. See what I'm getting at?

So no, a car doesn't have to be 'street legal' per the local laws to compete... but it's a good thing to attempt to keep the police happy. :)

--kC

the front is an STI bar... I'm one of the few guys running it on a wagon. works if you use spherical endlinks which allow better fitment. Got it from JnJ Associates. http://www.jnjassociates.biz/

As for the cutout.... I was gonna do it at the end of the downpipe (which should be after the driver) or even closer to the muffler... there is a perfect point right where the pipe curves before the muffler that we can weld it in. I dont think it would be that loud. I ran the car w/out a muffler at an auto-x once and it sounded really good, but wasnt that loud. with a high flow cat i am sure it would sound similar, as the cat and turbo still muffle sound. Even if it doesnt add that much performance gain, it is always good to be able to hear the engine better just so you know where you are at in the rev band. the car is pretty quiet stock... but i think hearing the boxer rumble has some kind of positive psychological effect on me too.

I've heard some ass-loud cars locally, and if they are ok to run mine definitely would be... who knows, though, maybe the wrx would be really damn loud if i actually had a high flow cat instead. i'll have to try it.SUggestion... just run a straight pipe out the rear instead of a turndown. A few extra bucks, and only a couple extra lbs at most... it really quiets it down further.

Many regions are losing sites due to sound... it's up to everyone to try and quiet it down if possible, even tho the rules say 'it's legal'. :)

Happy site owners and neighbors don't complain as much when people do their best to quiet exhaust sounds. ;)

You're already proven that you're not building a car that's going to be fully setup... putting a pipe that exits out the back will not rob you of anything.

--kC

yeah... well it will probably just be a cutout before the muffler like i originally intended... so it will exit pretty close to the rear, maybe a foot away.

i think ideally i could run a txs stealthback with a stock muffler and then just open the muffler up for races... the stealthback alone i think is filled with sound deadening material or something... so should be relatively "quiet" compare to other systems... of course that all means lots of money anyways.

this was just sort of a side project we were gonna do for fun... it is good to know it won't re-class me. its not really up there on my list of to dos anyways.

back to the essentials.

I priced rotas at $700 for a set on subydude (not sure if that includes shipping) plus you need the lugnuts which are $2.25 each (so $45 for a set). by comparison i can get some wheels off edgeracing.com for about $536 a set and I believe they include lugs and all mounting hardware IF you get tires in a package deal. shipping is about $112 if i recall correctly. seems like a better deal, but the rims are 20.2 lbs each like i mentioned earlier, when compared against the (lighter) rotas at ~17lbs each??? (i am looking at the 17x8s slipstreams btw).

there are 5zigens on edgeracing 17x8 17lbs for about $169 per wheel, putting them about $6/wheel cheaper than subydude's rates on the slipstreams. that is still too expensive for me... i just wish there was a way i could get these cheaper... oh well.

anyone think the 20lb wheel is worth it? 3lbs isnt that much, and wasnt sure how much of a difference it will really make...

bump... i'd really like to know if you guys think about the weight of the wheels i am looking at currently, and if it matters...

the raze wheels are 17x8 et 48 and are 20.2 lbs and are $134 each

the 5zigens are 17x8 et 48 and are 17lbs and are $169 apiece. (on sale, usually $230)

The 5zigens are $35 more per corner and $140 more for a set.

Is saving 3 lbs per wheel worth $35 a corner? will i notice it?

Is saving 3 lbs per wheel worth $35 a corner? will i notice it?The 5Zigens are worth the extra coin. Good affordable wheel. You'll be saving weight in the best place and doing it right the first time. No one can say if you would notice it as it seems driver "butt dyno" dependant and you'd need to drive them back to back on the same tire to compare which most don't have the opportunity to do.

Go for the wheels used. My Rotas, used, cost about as much as a set of new Rotas, but they included Bridgestone Potenza S-03 tires with about 80% treadlife remaining, a decent enough tire to get started on. It was like saving $400.

The 5Zigens are worth the extra coin. Good affordable wheel. You'll be saving weight in the best place and doing it right the first time. No one can say if you would notice it as it seems driver "butt dyno" dependant and you'd need to drive them back to back on the same tire to compare which most don't have the opportunity to do.

sounds to me to not really matter then... it would be nice to get the lighter wheels but that is a lot more $$$.... I will have to give it some more thought though.

used would be great... but I would like to do it locally, never really bought something from someone on a forum before... and nothing on ebay, already checked :(

sounds to me to not really matter then... Well I guess I answered more in the context that you would "notice" it. If the saved weight gave you a tenth or two on a typical autox course, you wouldn't notice it, but you'd still benefit from it.

The resale on the 5zigens would be twice that of the raze wheels. It is worth the investment.

I recommend the following as the best bang for the buck w/ur current setup:


1. Sign up for evo school and destroy whats left of you current tires

2. Get the 5zigens and tires. 'kooks or rt-615 both are good (I like the 615, others like the kooks), as long as they are as wide as you can fit w/o rubbing at full lock

3. Get front camber plates and max out your front neg camber and 0 toe front, and 0 to 1/4 rear (subjective - flavor to taste)

Then when you have enough money buy the konis.

Then do the up/down/catback/accessport after you have driven for a season or 2 or your rich uncle dies

a few more questions.

I finally got the quotes from edgeracing... it is expensive! I will defintiely be dropping over $1k if I go with new rims and tires.

Also, they mention I need hubcentric rings for both wheels. How exactly do they work? I would imagine if they go between the wheels and the hub, they would effectively act as a spacer and the result would be a decrease in offset (moving my wheels closer to the fenders slightly.) I know that fitment is gonna be tight as it is... will these rings make it even harder to not rub? I take it as a given I will be rolling my fenders... will most bodyshops do that for you?

I am also reconsidering stock rims and tires for now - I thought of course of 225/50/16 either hankooks or falkens, but the 225/45 hankook sounds awesome... but discount will not guarantee fitment of a tire that wide and low profile on my rim.

What about a 205/40 falken? I would have a severe drop in the 1-2 shift (probably by about 3.3 mph) and i imagine much improved gearing. would that gearing be worth it more than the increased width? also i thought this tire might come wider than it says... i thought a lot of falken tires were wider than they are rated at. anyone know?

but the 225/45 hankook sounds awesome... If you stay on the stock rims for now, go with those. They fit no problem as I had a set. 205's = way too skinny.

only problem with the 225/45 is that discount said they couldnt guarantee fitment... i dont want them to say no... but i guess if they work.

Do they bulge excessively? what did you think about the performance aspect of that particular tire?

finally... anyone know the answer regarding those hubcentric rings?

only problem with the 225/45 is that discount said they couldnt guarantee fitment... i dont want them to say no... but i guess if they work.

Do they bulge excessively? what did you think about the performance aspect of that particular tire? They fit fine and if they tell you otherwise, take your business elsewhere. Most people working at tire shops are morons and don't know nothing beyond what a spec tells them. They won't bulge excessively at all. As far as performance, well the sidewalls are known to be soft no matter what, so squeezing them on a 6.5" rim isn't really making it much worse. The point is they have grip and will give you good gearing, you can drive around the vagueness by doing your steering inputs a little earlier. You do an event or two on them and you'll learn 'em like any other tire.

finally... anyone know the answer regarding those hubcentric rings? I know nothing about those rims needing "hubcentric rings" with two people running those in my region. The offset is fine.

hmm so you know people with the fn01r-c that are not using hubcentric rings at all?

i think i might just run the 225/45 based on pure economy then... i can't be nationally competitive for some time anyways, so no real reason to get the best setup yet if the money isnt there. that way I can run "good" tires and then still have money to finish up my suspension.

Good, if you run the kooks on ur current wheels then you can afford camber plates/or bolts and at some point Konis...

well i read somewhere that the kooks were describes as having the "turn in of a large pillow"

That doesnt sound like fun... I really want the tires to respond fast to steering inputs.

was thinking that sticking with a bigger aspect ratio is better.... more specifically the 225/50/16 azenis on stock wheels.

I am also really frustrated trying to find a local set of wheels... i think i founds some on a local forum but no one is replying to my PMs.... I need tires badly (i am at the wear bars on my Pirellis) and I need to make this decision soon!!! It's starting to become pretty stressful. I don't think I want to drop over $1k on the new rims... but at the same time I would then need to find a cheap single stock wheel or a whole set... so many decisions!

In other news, the guy from edge racing said that the hubcentric rings wouldnt affect offset... so if that is true that is good news.

They may not have the turn in response of some of the other tires on the market, but I definitely wouldn't say they're horrible. Even without being quite as responsive, they're still a fast tire. Heck, Chris Fenter had the fastest time in STX on the west course at nationals on the Hankooks.

IMO, most 225/50R16s are going to have a pretty poor response/transition, ESPECIALLY on the stock 6.5" rims. I ran 225/50 MX's on 16x7 rims for a while and I'd describe them as squishy (it's a technical term) at best.

If you absolutely have to run on the stock WRX 16x6.5's I'd say 215/45 Hankooks or RT-615's would be the way to go. They'll probably be much more responsive than the 225/50's and you'll get nice gearing advantage as well.

ok... i will keep that in mind... however if my 17x8 option pans out, what do you guys think about the 245/40 hankooks (as opposed to the 235/40)?

I looked and this size IS available.... why is the choice typically the 235/40 instead of the 245/40? is the gearing really that important?

as a note, the 245/40 IS slightly smaller than stock, but not as much as the 235/40 is (obviously).

with either will I have rubbing issues at all in the rear? It's getting pretty beefy and I wanna make sure i wont have issues before making the plunge.... I know I will have to roll the fenders in the rear, but honestly i am just as worried about rubbing on the inside (the strut side... keep in mind i am on stock struts/springs too).

how is fitment on the front? any fender rolling necessary there?

I run 225/50 on the stock rims
they are a little squishy but not too bad, and i haven't seen any rubbing as of yet
after an event there is tire wear on the curved part and top of the side wall
the 5zigens are the wheels I'm looking into getting in 17x8

ok... i will keep that in mind... however if my 17x8 option pans out, what do you guys think about the 245/40 hankooks (as opposed to the 235/40)?

I looked and this size IS available.... why is the choice typically the 235/40 instead of the 245/40? is the gearing really that important?

as a note, the 245/40 IS slightly smaller than stock, but not as much as the 235/40 is (obviously).

with either will I have rubbing issues at all in the rear? It's getting pretty beefy and I wanna make sure i wont have issues before making the plunge.... I know I will have to roll the fenders in the rear, but honestly i am just as worried about rubbing on the inside (the strut side... keep in mind i am on stock struts/springs too).

how is fitment on the front? any fender rolling necessary there?


I would definately recommend the 235/40-17 for several reasons: Improved gearing, lower CG, and shorter more responsive sidewalls.

That being said, I don't know how the fitment will be on a REX wagon, I have the Sedan.

If you would like a set of shaved Hankook's that are brand new, PM me I have a spare set that I am selling. Let me know.

Take care,
Chris Fenter

235/40/17 fit fine on wagon with 17x8 (+48) wheels. You'll need to roll your fenders, but that's it.

-Max.

yeah i am still pursuing the 17x8s with 235/40s.... been looking at a lot of sets here but most of them people are beating me to... I had found one set with 235/45 and was trying to find someone local to buy the tires but no luck before the set was sold... so my search continues.

I've searched all over but can't really find anything cheaper than the 20.5 lb Raze wheels ($134 each). Not sure if the extra weight is ok or not. The 5Zigens are about $140 more for a set, so not sure if I want to jump up to them or not. I'm having a really hard time deciding on this one...

BlkWRXWag - you just need to roll the rear fenders, correct? What is a reasonable price that a body shop would charge to do that per fender?

Just order some Rotas. That was the National Championship STX car was running.

You probably will just need the rears rolled - about $70 a side is what I have seen lately.

I think subydude told me that the lightest Rota in 17x8 was about 18.6 lbs (It was the Torques). That said, it seems like the Raze 17x8s at 20.5 lbs aren't that much more... maybe i should just go with them for economy?

rotas are awesome, but $700 for a set plus tires is a lot.... I can get the Razes with hankooks for about $1030 shipped to my door... so they look pretty appealing... except for the weight. Do you guys really think 20.5 lb wheels will make that big a difference? I would ideally get the ligher wheels, but I don't have as much money as I would like to have...

$70 a side is up there... i heard someone getting it done for ~$30. guess i will call my body shop and see what they do... that is another thing i need to consider.

Here's another question for you - say you have $1500 to spend on my car... would you

1. get a good suspension (konis, camber plates, and ground controls or stiff springs) and then get 225/45 or 225/50 tires on stock rims

OR

2. get 17x8s wtih 235s and then do no suspension work (maybe springs and camber plates on stock shocks)

this is the debate I am in with myself... the suspension is partially done on my car, and I can tell that I can use some good dampenrs... and stiffer springs... yet I need tires... so it is more or less a balance.

what balance would give me the most bang for my buck? It isn't going to be nationally competitive for a long time (my engine is 100% stock anyways) so right now I will just shoot for local competition... but what set up would let me have the most fun with the car?

Wheels/tires > *

What offset are those Razes? You really only want to buy wheels once, so I avoid the Razes and get the Rota or 5Zigens. Heavy is not good.

^^^^^^^^ Do it right from the ground up and you got plenty of time to improve your driving before suspension is gonna help you.
rotas are awesome, but $700 for a set plus tires is a lot.... No, that is CHEAP as far as buying a good set of wheels no matter how poor you are.

Just my 2 cents:

Soften the rear bar, start at the softest setting and work from there... This may help with your oversteer issue...

Alignment is key... You can start with about -1.5 camber in the frt, -1 in the back with zero toe should work well with a DD.

Combined with sticker tires, you may find the car does not oversteer as much.

I suggest you make small changes to the car. One at a time if you can and get as much seat time as possible.

Bryan

http://www.rollyourfender.com/

I did it. It's easy, and about $70 for the whole thing including shipping. Definitely the way to go for rolling the fender.

to buy new, cheap 17x8 wheels:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1116647

+1 to rollyourfender.com (especially if you can split it with a couple friends)

+1 to maxing your front camber on stock bolts

i've got a set of 3 17x8 rota slipstreams in perfect condition in 17x8 et48mm 5x100, for $370+ shipping right now, thats around $120 a wheel for a great wheel. PM me.

im taking apart my stx 02 wagon, let me know if youre interested in anything.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1123112

Wheels/tires > *

What offset are those Razes? You really only want to buy wheels once, so I avoid the Razes and get the Rota or 5Zigens. Heavy is not good.

The Razes (and all other wheels I am looking at currently) are 17x8 et48.

Just my 2 cents:

Soften the rear bar, start at the softest setting and work from there... This may help with your oversteer issue...

Alignment is key... You can start with about -1.5 camber in the frt, -1 in the back with zero toe should work well with a DD.

Combined with sticker tires, you may find the car does not oversteer as much.

I suggest you make small changes to the car. One at a time if you can and get as much seat time as possible.

Bryan

Well I have tried the rear bar at all settings. for tighter courses the stiffest is very nice... for track the softest is absolutely necessary. however, all settings still give me understeer! I wouldnt say I have oversteer issues... i guess I didnt describe myself right. Basically, the car will handle neutrally most of the time. It will push in certain sweepers, and it will only oversteer in excessively long or fast slaloms. I feel that this is because of the stock shocks not being able to dampen the movement of the sway bars... since the sway bars are so much bigger than stock... thus the car can easily get unsettled in a slalom and it can whip its tail around if i try to push it too hard. This is my theory, but I am very interested to see what others think the cause of this snap oversteer to be... anyone?

i think sometimes though that it is inevitable and any car will snap oversteer in a situation like that. I think I really just need to get better allignment numbers to get the car to handle right... right now i have -0.9 degrees camber up front and stock in the back. i think something down there is either bent or the tech couldnt do something right as the max they got was -0.9 not -1.3.

abaxter34 - sent you a PM... interested in some of the suspension you have for sale.

Do you still have a stock battery? Aren't those up around 30-35 pounds? When my friend keith pulled his AC (just the condenser), that took like 10lbs i think (not sure, I wasn't there) off the nose, and the car handled MUCH better! it did not understeer like it used to, it was much much better, and did not push like it used to. I would highly reccomend doing a lighter batter up front, Deka is a company that makes great batteries (they make the expensive Braille batter), and you should check ou the EXTL20 (or something like that), it's a 15lb battery that will save you 15lbs up front (or more if you relocate it), and it should make quite a difference! it's cheap too, like $70. It should start up fine in the winter, but also, if you don't drive in the cold often, look at the EXTL14. it's their 11.5lb battery (exact same battery as the braille one) but is only $50, that'll save you near 20lbs up front, and should greatly help that understeer/push that you are experiencing.

also have you tried playing with tire pressures? if you are pushing a bit, let a tad out in the front, or add some more to the rear.

The lightweight battery is a great idea, but this saying: that took like 10lbs i think (not sure, I wasn't there) off the nose, and the car handled MUCH better! Means I got some real estate on the moon to sell him. :rolleyes:

The lightweight battery is a great idea, but this saying: Means I got some real estate on the moon to sell him. :rolleyes:


I have no iea what that means... i think what he said ,was he took 10lbs off..

I have no iea what that means... i think what he said ,was he took 10lbs off..

that he took 10lbs off the noise is fine. that it made the car understeer noticeably less is a crock of chit. 10lbs off a 3000lbs pig? yeah, you won't notice it from the drivers seat. really freakin good data aq won't even see a measurable and repeatable difference.

Hi all,

well thanks for the continued advice.

I am leaning towards the 17x8s but that might change in a few hours :rolleyes:

just a quick question, again... i found 245/35 tires (Toyo Proxes T1 and Toyo Proxes T1rs... are either of these any good?) This size is 23.8 inches diameter, which is smaller even than the 235/40... and wider! any thoughts on these tires?

The only thing wider about the toyos is the number written on the side. Toyo lists the section width on a 8.5" wheel as 9.6" the same as a 235 advan. For some reason toyo does not list tread widths so I cant check that. I doubt the slightly lower gearing from the toyos will overcome the grip of the advans but there is only one way to find out.

i found 245/35 tires Some national level autox competitors tried that size and came to the conclusion the 235/40 performed better on an 8" rim. I don't remember all the reasoning, but one of them was the fact that the best performing tires didn't and still don't seem to come in that size.(Toyo Proxes T1 and Toyo Proxes T1rs... are either of these any good?) Not really. You basically have four choices for autox street tires: Yoko Advan 07, Falken Azenis RT-615, Hankook RS2, Bridgestone RE01-R.

update...

I might be getting a set of wheels very soon... just gotta keep my fingers crossed and hope it works out.

another questions - when running a height adjustable suspension, what height do you all run at (specifically for wagons)? I was thinking of just leveling the control arms in front, but just eyeballing it probably isnt really accurate, and I wouldnt really know what to do for the rear... suggestions?

^ don't go too low- the Impreza doesn't like it. I'd say 20-35mm from stock both front and rear should put you in the right range. 387/376 is the oe height for the wagon.

I thought 225 was the widest you could go in STX?

I thought 225 was the widest you could go in STX?
That is sts, stx is 245 on a 8" wheel max.

I was thinking the "perfect" drop would be 1.5" front (38mm) and 0.75" rear... maybe i should go for something like 1.25" front and 0.5" rear... that would give a level stance but not too much. I think the back looks great as is. Should I just do it such that the control arms are level and then just leave it? what about the back? what would I use for reference back there in determining the optimal ride height?

yeah i am trying to get a set of wheels locally but getting a hold of the guy has proven challenging... that and I am only in town on weekends... so hopefully that will work out. I got a couple of months to get my car set up for next season.

To measure ride height simply measure from the center of the hub to the wheel arch (insure your on a good flat surface).

The numbers I qouted are the oe wrx wagon ride height specs (measured as described).

I've found a even rake to suit me better (lower same f/r) but others have found a forward rake more to their liking, others a slight rearward rake- might have to experiment.

I run rota wheels on the wagon 17x8 g-force 18lbs a pice and 245/40/17 Kuhmo MX which is very light for a tire!

well here is an update on the progress of the wagon.

Went ahead and rolled the rear fenders in preparation for some bigger wheels and tires.

Then I decided on some 5Zigen FN01R-Cs in 17x8 et 48mm. I chose the Falken Azenis RT615s as they seem to be slightly favored by those who have tried both. I think the Hankook would have been a good choice if I had a suspension that can provide more camber, but I don't have that yet; so right now I think the Falken was a good decision. The size is 235/40/17, just like you all have suggested to me.

In the works are the finishing of my auto-x magnetic numbers. I might also work out an exhaust cutout (post cat) before this season starts. I am in the meantime going to start looking more into what suspension I want to get.

Some pics:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/fender%20rolling%20and%205zigens/DSC01620.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/fender%20rolling%20and%205zigens/DSC01626.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/fender%20rolling%20and%205zigens/DSC01627.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/fender%20rolling%20and%205zigens/DSC01624.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/fender%20rolling%20and%205zigens/DSC01628.jpg

That's hot.

I had an electric cutout on my sedan and it wasn't loud at all. I had it mounted right before the muffler. It gave that good boxer sound and helped me hear the car when I was auto-Xing .

I know everyone is talking about putting the 235/40/17 615's on 17x8's , but would they fit on 17x7.5's? Your wagon looks great. Did you find that it was necessary to roll your enders or would it have worked without rolling them?

I know everyone is talking about putting the 235/40/17 615's on 17x8's , but would they fit on 17x7.5's? Your wagon looks great. Did you find that it was necessary to roll your enders or would it have worked without rolling them?

The tire will work on a 7.5" wheel (I asked it earlier in this thread). people do run the tire on a 7.5".

that being said, the tire spec recommends the wheel width to be 8-9.5". I really only wanted to buy a set of wheels once. I found a lot of people were selling 17x7.5s to get 17x8s, so I decided why bother with the 17x7.5... plus the 8" wide wheel is the best you can have for auto-x in STX and helps the tire perform better.

In addition, a 7.5" probably wouldn't hold a 245 tire very well... I might consider the 'kook in 245/40 next time if I think it is worth it. I think gaining a bit of OD won't matter as I can't even notice the gearing as it is, now. We'll see if I notice in an auto-x, though.

As for rolling... I think it would work with no rolling if you are at stock ride height. I also have very big sway bars that kill a lot of body roll, so I was fairly confident I wouldn't have to roll. I ended up rolling anyways - just because I wanted to play it safe. I actually did it before I got the wheels and tires in so I don't know for sure.

as for the cutout - I know it will sound good from the muffler. I've run the car with no muffler to see what it would sound like.... do you have a downpipe or uppipe? Does it still sound good? Ever ran it with a straight downpipe (i.e. no resontor or muffler)? I was contemplating doing the cutout there but not sure if it will be too loud without the resonator.

The only reason I asked about the rim size was because my rims are 7.5. If I had to do it again, I would definitely go with an 8 in. rim . As far as my exhaust goes it's stock except for the cutout. I added the cutout when I was running in D-stock. I'll be in STX this season, so I will also be upgrading my exhaust.

IMO, the reason you get tail-happy in slaloms is because of the stock shocks not providing enough damping for your bars.

IMO, the reason you get tail-happy in slaloms is because of the stock shocks not providing enough damping for your bars.


yes. you and I had this conversation when I got my bars. I also believe it is the reason for the tail-happiness... I assume you don't see any slalom tail-happiness with your coilovers and 27mm bars?

I was hoping that there would be more discussion on this but there really hasn't been.

Okay, here is an update.

I've auto-xed the new wheels and tires twice now. Great improvement. In the first race, I had a hard time breaking traction and getting any squeel out of the Azenis. In the second race, I bumped up my rear bar to 29mm (front was at 29mm as well) to promote more rotation. Car handled great, never got tailhappy even in slaloms. It still exhibits a bit of push, but I noticed that after taking 2 lbs out of the front tires the understeer was lessened. Unfortunately, I only did that for my last run. I ran at 40/40 for the tires, next time I think maybe 36/40 or maybe 38/42. Suggestions? (235/40/17 rt615s on 17x8s).

Now, onto some questions I have.

First, are headers legal for STX class? I am pretty sure they are, just checking. For all of you guys in nationals, do you choose a standard uppipe or a header/uppipe combo? I was looking at the MadDad V2 headers, that are redesigned with a smaller uppipe (45mm) that supposedly increases low end better. Wasn't really sure though... if you guys have done these (or other headers) chime in and let me know the advantages of either the uppipe alone or the header/uppipe combo. My friend might just give me his partially gutted OEM uppipe, but I am still not sure if I want to do that, a normal uppipe, or a header/uppipe combo.

In a nutshell, I'm getting sick of my car being so slow in second gear below 3000 rpms... I want to get more low end, and better spool. The problem I have is, when coming out of a fast section of course (say about 40-50mph in second gear), and into a slower section (say a tight chicago box, at 10-20 mph) I have issues with getting my car to get up and out of there... I, like many, have issues with first gear. I'm running syncromesh + normal 75w90 and I think it helped a little, but I can still only shift into 1st at about 15mph, and even then it isn't easy. I can double clutch it and get it in 1st above 20, but that takes more time, and it is harder for a less experienced driver like myself to do that (at least in the heat of an auto-x run!)

what mods (stx legal) can I do to help my car's low end? I want to at least have some more power down low in 2nd before my turbo spools. I was thinking specifically the uppipe (maybe headers) and a lightened crank pulley. From an auto-x perspective, how have these mods helped you all? What would you say gives the most low end response?

I also plan on doing a downpipe with cutout someday, but right now I am hoping to find cheap and easy solutions that will be a lot of bang for my buck, because I want to spend money on the rest of my suspension first before a lot of crazy expensive engine stuff.

Also, on a side note, how much to whiteline steering rack bushings help out for auto-x? My friend who AXes his STI says they helped him a lot, but I was curious to see how they help a normal WRX. Does it get rid of that annoying dead space in the middle of the steering (the place where you can turn the wheel back and forth and nothing happens)?

The bushings make everything feel better but I cant say they made me any faster. Possibly helped with consistency but steering feel should not be limiting your autox times.

First, are headers legal for STX class?Yes, they are. Replacing the uppipe is too. I'm not well versed on what headers are available nowadays, but I used to have one from SSAutoChrome that was made specifically to help low end instead of topend. There weren't many out when I was running. ;)

You'll also drop a lot of weight in front of the wheels, which is also a good thing.

--kC

I can identify with your low end woes. I have been working on solving this problem as well.

What I have done:

PnP stock exhaust manifolds.
TurboXS cast UP
Bellmouth DP
High Flow 3" Cat
STi muffler
Self tune with Enginuity

Here is a graph (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15696060&postcount=19) that Scrat made of various exhaust components back pressure. I went with the Magnaflow cat before he found the Metal Cat. Also notice that the STi muffler is pretty close to the Prodrive. Scrat is THE MAN!


Regarding the PnP OEM Manifolds vs headers: I have read a lot about the advantages and disadvantages. There is an extensive thread about this. I decided to PnP my own OEM manifolds. I believe they make a difference. The OEM crossover is very restrictive though and I will be replacing it with either a JDGrimm cross over or Crucial's version (if Jeremy ever makes it).

Lastly, I have been tuning my timing map for approx 2 months now. I am pretty close to a final tune. My butt dyno tells me that I am very close in power to what I had with Cobb STG 2 by changing timing only. Boost remains stock.

One more thing to address. I had the privilege of a National Champ (ESP) driving my WRX and giving me suggestions. He told me to get better struts, my stockers had not nearly enough damping. He also told me to get a better exhaust. At the time I was running catless UP, gutted DP and stock WRX 3rd cat and catback. I asked him if he thought the Koni inserts would be sufficient. He was quite positive about the Koni's being up to the job.

Buck

I'd probably opt for the downpipe than for the header. A 'shorty' downpipe shouldn't run you more than a couple hundred dollars.

While there are some headers out there that will give you good bottom end and quick spooling they aren't nearly as numerous as the ones that HURT spool time and low end torque.

If you still have the oe downpipe- replace it now! That cat is very restrictive as is the design of the mouth of the downpipe itself. Just that one piece will make a huge difference. I'd nix the oe uppipe next (do them at the same time to save on time)- this will help w/ sppol as well.

Good luck finding headers that spool better than the oe manifolds (lighter -yes, more top end- yes too, quicker spooling- not that I've seen). If someone can convince me they exist- I'll buy a set :).

P&Ping your manifolds is a pretty easy task, the oe porting leaves a little to be desired.

Also look at a turbo inlet hose/pipe as well down the road.

are the turbo inlet hoses and port and polishing the headers legal for STX? I could have sworn the PnP isn't... but don't have a handy copy of the rule book since I'm not at home right now.

are there any advantages of going with a shorty DP rather than a full catted DP (say, the Helix)?

inlet hose is legal- as is P&Ping the oe manifold (as it's replacable)- other P&P depending on location could certainly be prohibited (turbo/intercooler for example)

A shorty + the oe 3rd car will flow better than a catted downpipe + no 3 rd cat. Some folks w/ emission concerns find the cat in the downpipe better (the cat "lights" better further upstream).

The "best" would be a shorty downpipe w/ a "race" cat in the ~ location of the oe 3rd cat (ofcourse the uppipe nixed as well).

A shorty + the oe 3rd car will flow better than a catted downpipe + no 3 rd cat. Some folks w/ emission concerns find the cat in the downpipe better (the cat "lights" better further upstream).

The "best" would be a shorty downpipe w/ a "race" cat in the ~ location of the oe 3rd cat (ofcourse the uppipe nixed as well).

Have any flow tests to proove that a stock third cat flows better than a hi-flow cat up near the turbo in an aftermarket catted downpipe? Or are you saying that if you want to leave one of the stock cats the third one is the one to leave? I'd be VERY surprised if a stock cat flows anywhere near the level of a good aftermarket no matter where you put it.

Without any doubt the oe 3rd cat is the one to leave if your leaving a oe cat.

If you click on the link above you'll see the oe 3rd cat is not overly restrictive- actually outflowing the TurboXS one. Not that it can't be improved on (see the other two listed), but as you move the cat closer to the turbo it's going to become more restrictive. It's very possible that a cat that flows a little better than the oe 3rd one but closer to the turbo, will not outflow the oe cat further downstream (in it's normal position). Would be a worthy test :) Then again- the we know what the best solution is already- non catted downpipe w/ a race cat in place of the oe 3rd cat :D

this is good stuff guys - thanks a bunch!

On that graph, what exactly were the exhausts tested? First, I'm assuming this is on an otherwise stock 2.0L WRX...

The graph mentions a lot of different setups but I wasn't sure what they were... I'll guess and correct me if I am wrong...

"stock wrx" = completely stock?
"stock sti" = completely stock STI (or is it an STI exhaust on a WRX?)
prodrive = prodrive muffler only?
stock cat = ?
turboxs cat = ?
magnaflow cat = ?
metal cat = ?
stock midpipe = ? (maybe a catless up, shorty dp, and stock 3rd cat?

I wasn't sure what the setups used in this test were... say if they had catless uppipes and shorty downpipes or what... if someone could give me more information on this test I'd appreciate it. Thanks!

I think it goes oe muffler, oe STi muffler, Prodrive muffler, Turboxs cat (nt sure if 3rd replacement or in a down pipe?) oe 3rd cat, Magnaflow 3rd replacement, metal cat 3rd replacement- actually the last three could also make there way into a downpipe as well.

I think the tests were on the pieces themselves- not part of any system- somewhere he showed how he did it

BIGSKY is correct. He tested the individual pieces. He did it with a home made flow meter and a leaf blower. He documented how he did it in a different thread. His methodology looks pretty good.

By Scrat's graph, replacing the stock WRX muffler with the STi muffler gets rid of approx 2.25 psi pressure drop. Replacing the stock WRX 3rd cat with a Magnaflow gets rid of approx 1.5 psi pressure drop. Not too shabby! And cheap too!

I'm considering welding a Metal Cat into 3" pipe that runs out the back without any muffler at all for STX.

Buck

***EDIT***
Here's the thread showing how he did it. (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=898368&page=4)

what mods (stx legal) can I do to help my car's low end? Here's a thread devoted to "how much power can you legally get in STX":
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=747498&highlight=dyno

As you can see, a tune helps a lot with the low-end.

Also, on a side note, how much to whiteline steering rack bushings help out for auto-x? My friend who AXes his STI says they helped him a lot, but I was curious to see how they help a normal WRX. Does it get rid of that annoying dead space in the middle of the steering (the place where you can turn the wheel back and forth and nothing happens)?I couldn't really tell the difference when I installed mine. YMMV. I don't think it will drop any time from your runs, it's more of a feel thing.

john

John, am I reading correctly when I see that AFR's start at 16:1 and go to 12:1 for those tunes?

http://www.wowway.com/~pcroy8059/WRX_plot.jpg

Holy crap! I have some work to do!

Buck

That's not my chart, but it looks like you're reading it right.

One thing to keep in mind - your autox tune doesn't have to be useful / safe / whatever on the street. So if you can get more power by using a map that's fine for the first 3 gears but not safe in 4th and 5th, it might be worth it.

john

That's our chart, and we ran that on the street with no issues at all for quite a while after that tune. Now the car is basically only an autocross car and gets trailered to events so it hardly ever sees street driving at all.

For what it's worth we use a PDE catted down-pipe which has a 400 cell per inch cat right up near the turbo.

That's a nice looking dyno :) 200 ft lbs at 2700- very nice

Thanks for the info. I'm very curious to see what my next set of logs can show me after adjust AFR's.

Buck

Update - ordered some Whiteline steering rack bushings - From what I read around it sounds like people really like these. My old car (mazda protege5) had really quick steering compared to the WRX... the feel was awesome. I am hoping to get something like that with these, as I think it will help me (psychologically) control the car better with steering inputs. We'll see.....

Bushings will add to the equation that helps steering input/feel (along with tires, springs, swaybars and alignment) but even with all that, the WRX still has pretty soft and slow steering inputs. The only thing I've got left that I can change on my front end is the control arm bushings, and even though it's light years better than stock, it still doesn't have the steering that my wife's Mazda3 does.

So another update.... I got my hands on a partially gutted uppipe. Me and a friend finished gutting it in about 20 minutes...

I'm still a bit wary running it though. It looks like all the chunks are gone. I'm gonna have to replace a few of the studs, sand some minor rust off, and get a wire brush and scrape the inside really good to make sure nothing is left inside. Hopefully it will work out, and, if so, I will be installing it early next week along with the steering rack bushings.

I also have the first SCCA points race of the season tomorrow, I will update this thread after I get back from that... it is an on-track race and will be pretty high speed - hopefully my rear end will stay in check through the slaloms. Hopefully I will have the speed to stay ahead of the competition in STX.

UPDATE:

I installed the steering rack bushings. They were a royal PITA to install... took a while, but I got them in. I like the change. The steering is sportier and is what it should have been from the factory. Not sure how much it will help for auto-x, but it is a change I appreciate even in daily driving.

The auto-x on Saturday went very well. It was just my 5th SCCA event (I auto-x on the side with PCA and my car club) and I PAXed 8th out of a total of 71 drivers. I was really happy about that, as I had hoped to someday PAX top ten. It was a rough day with an SRT4 spinning out and hitting a wall (this one was done on the track). I beat out my buddy's very scary SM WRX with power mods, coilovers, and R-compounds. If we got more runs I am sure he could have beaten me. who knows though. I took STX fortuneately, but I should have as I was probably the fastest car there save for a stage 2 Saabaru.

The car felt great, I was a bit cautious in the longer slaloms as I know that the rear end likes to come out. I think better shocks will allow me to go faster there... but still I think the car did well, considering that it is all stock engine wise with f/r sways and strut bars.

I have some in car videos, I'd like you all to give me feedback about my driving, and, if possible, where you think I could have been faster. Unfortunately my fastest run's video is a bit screwy, but most of it works.



This is my 3rd run. I was drifiting around the long corner after the hairpin when Jake, my codriver, spotted for me the red flag. This was good because i messed up and got a re-run :)
Joey's red flag (http://infohost.nmt.edu/~jferna00/scca_2007_event_1_joey_red_flag.wmv)

This is my actual third run (redo) that was my fastest 113.xxx. The video gets kind of messed up after the oval, but worth watching because it gets fixed near the end and you hear me say something funny when I see my time (it's a pretty funny reaction).
Joey fastest run (http://infohost.nmt.edu/~jferna00/scca_2007_event_1_joey_run3_final.wmv)


PS. - does anyone read this thread? I sort of am just using it as "my thread" for updates about getting the WRX prepped and using it to ask for advice both in driving and setup issues...

That is the coolest autocross course I have ever seen.

Hell yeah I read it! I enjoy reading about your progress.

The video is awesome.

I have a hard time judging how well someone does via video. There was a place or two that I saw that you would have benefited by slowing earlier and thus getting on the gas earlier coming out of the curve. Also, it "seemed" that you could have carried more speed through the slaloms. Again, hard for me to judge through the video though.

Well done.

Buck

It is tough to judge from a video. At least in the first part of the video before it zooms in and we can't see the course you are way behind in the one slalom that starts about 19 seconds in. You're actually turning after the cones as well as giving them an extra couple of feet they don't need it looks like. It looked like there was close to a second to be gained through that section.

You southerners still suck BTW. Yesterday we had a very unseasonably warm 70 degree day that -almost- melted all the snow in our yard. We won't be autocrossing for another month+.

yeah i think I definitely need to work on my slaloming skills... I think it has to do with my inherent fear for spinning out. Once I get better dampeners I think I will be more willing to push it a bit harder in the slaloms. I think my problem is that I brake a lot on entry and then right off the bat get behind in the slalom. I need to just dive right in and hug the cones better. I also used to hit a lot of cones in slaloms so recently I am trying to back off just a bit to not hit cones - so far it is working, in the last 3 auto-xes I have hit just 1 cone total.

I have a bunch of other videos floating around, I will continue to post them for you all to see. More feedback also is welcome :)

btw if you didn't guess already, that run was with no muffler :) I still haven't had the time to do that cutout thingie so I just pull the muffler every race. I am getting good at it - takes me about 5-10 minutes to pull it now :)

I might do a cutout this week, but I am definitely installing the gutted uppipe on Saturday, wish me luck :)

well another update:

got the gutted uppipe installed. Took ~7 hours with a lift, air tools, and a friend who has done it before (!) we certainly weren't rushing but still it was tough. we couldnt get to the motor mount bolt because of my oversized 27mm bar so instead we had to take the uppipe out the top which meant pulling the turbo. Afterwards I had a slight oil leak from the turbo but have since fixed it (bolt not torqued down all the way).

I wasn't too impressed with the uppipe - doesn't really spool any faster. i tested it in 4th gear before and after and observed 3100 spool and 3000 spool respectively, so maybe 100 rpm sooner? I also filmed the engine reving before in 2nd and 3rd gear pulls and will do the same with the uppipe installed to see if i notice an appreciable difference in spool time. Just from observation it doesn't seem to spool any faster. It does seem to have a bit more low end pick up, but it is probably just my imagination.

However, the car pulls harder in 1st and 2nd gear in the mid and upper range. It is pretty noticeable. I auto-xed today and i think it really pulled a lot harder. This auto-x was with my school's car club. I ended up with the fastest raw time and the fastest pax time, so i was happy. I beat everyone by over 1 second at least. The next was my buddy who drives a legacy wagon with full coilovers and good tires/wheels. The subarus did well today :)

I think my brakes are starting to go... they squeeled today when racing really loud once and after that quieter, but it is still here so i imagine it is the pad wearing down. Any idea if they are good for another 2 races (I have 2 events coming up next weekend, saturday and sunday). I want to get the subaru ABS recall thing fixed, but i am not sure if they will service me with aftermarket brake equipment (I was thinking of getting some hawk HPS pads with some good brake fluid (suggestions?). Also should i just get the brakes done professionally with a re-surface of the rotors? Does the brake fluid make much of a difference?

Sometimes brakes just squeel and it may not mean anything more than your brakes are squeeling. Without looking at the pads none of us can tell how much longer they'd be good for. If you've only got pads and fluid changed the dealer shouldn't give you any trouble at all about performing the ABS recalibration. Whether you want it done or not is another story, there was a thread about what exactly it did and whether or not you'd want it for an autocross car at one point which I didn't pay much attention to since we don't have stock brakes anymore. Pick up some pads of your choice, some Brembo rotor blanks (cheap and just as effective as any other rotor in stock size), and some decent fluid (I like the ATE because it makes knowing when you've flushed the system so easy). If your car is an '02 and the brakes have only been bled once or even never then yes new fluid will make a HUGE difference. Brakes are easy, if you've never done them before get someone who has to help you though as there are a few tricks to doing brakes right. Since you'll be doing a fluid flush you might consider adding the braided lines at the same time.

I think it would have taken you less time and agravation to just unbolt the sway-bar than to take the turbo out but that's just me. :)

Just checking in with a plug for the Koni inserts. I installed them yesterday and drove the wagon on the street today. What a difference! Even with the relatively softly sprung Tein H-Techs, the Koni's make a huge positive change in handling (from stock struts). I did a few slalom like weaves on an empty country road. The wagon feel much more planted where before the back end would have gotten squirrelly.

I have Test-n-Tune tomorrow to play with the adjustments. I'll check back with a report afterwards.

Buck

^ thanks! Good feedback. Let me know what you think after tomorrow. What sway bars are you running?

I am planning on getting Koni's this summer... I am looking for a bit of advice about them.

1. spring rates - specifically, what will go well with my front and rear 27mm sway bars.

2. what style of springs - conventional? or something like ground control coilovers? I would like the higher rates of the GC setups, but do not want to modify the lower portion of the strut housing for more travel (D_rex mod I believe) as I heard that will void the warranty on the Konis... I am looking for a reliable race setup, hence why I am leaning towards Konis and not coilovers like the Helix or Megan. It would be great to run the GCs with no lower strut modification and conventional camber plates without having to worry about bottoming out (I'd like to also be able to lower the front enough to get the control arms level).

^ thanks! Good feedback. Let me know what you think after tomorrow. What sway bars are you running?

I am planning on getting Koni's this summer... I am looking for a bit of advice about them.

1. spring rates - specifically, what will go well with my front and rear 27mm sway bars.

2. what style of springs - conventional? or something like ground control coilovers? I would like the higher rates of the GC setups, but do not want to modify the lower portion of the strut housing for more travel (D_rex mod I believe) as I heard that will void the warranty on the Konis... I am looking for a reliable race setup, hence why I am leaning towards Konis and not coilovers like the Helix or Megan. It would be great to run the GCs with no lower strut modification and conventional camber plates without having to worry about bottoming out (I'd like to also be able to lower the front enough to get the control arms level).

I'm running Whiteline 22mm front and 22-24 adj rear bars.

I plan on doing a GC setup when funds (wife) allow :) The springs that I go with will be in the 400# range. You would be able to go with somewhat softer springs with your mongo sway bars if you don't want the harshness of 400# springs. If that is the case maybe the STi "Tuned by Arai" springs at 324F/274R would fit the bill.

I did the lower strut mod. It's kind of a PITA, but I did not want to give up any more travel than necessary.

As to the lowering thing, BIGSKY and others have said that lowering until the LCA is level is a mixed proposition. Our cars camber curve gets worse after the arms get past level, so it's best to start a bit shy of level (less lowering is better in this case).

Did Test-n-Tune today. All that I can say is HOLY ****! This is the best damn mod that I have done to my wagon. Period. TBE was pretty good. Sway bars were really good. So were the Hankooks. The Koni inserts ROCK! I was able to push the wagon harder and with more confidence than I would have ever imagined. It just plain stuck. Can you tell that I like them?

I played around with the adjustment and ended up leaving them at one turn from softest, both front and rear. I may end up changing them a bit, but I think that's about where I need to be for my H-Tech springs.

Buck

Just a note on yesterday's event. I kept the adjustments the way that I had them the day before, but payed more attention to how the car behaved while on course. It seemed to exhibit more under steer than before.

My understanding is that to rectify under steer I should increase the damping in the rear or decrease the damping in the front. Anyone have any other thoughts?

Buck

Don't know if it will rectify it, but yes firming damping in the rear or softening damping in the front or both will dial some understeer out

FWIW I run my rears just shy of full firm and the fronts about 3/4 from full firm for autox

Cool.

Just as a clarifier, I'm just getting a bit of under steer. But the wagon isn't neutral either. I was really throwing it hard in the slaloms and the back end didn't move much. The sweeper was where I got push.

I think I'll soften the fronts up just a bit and see how that works out next weekend.

Thanks for the input.

Buck

OK so I think I will be going for a KONI - GC setup very soon.

If you all could give me some advice I'd appreciate it.

I've been reading a lot about KONI - GC setups on NASIOC and quite frankly am very intimidated. I'm especially concerned about choosing the components correctly to allow for proper lowering (from what I've heard, 13.5" from wheel center to fender in the front is optimal) and shock travel. I really want to make sure that I don't bottom out the shocks so that the KONIs last.

I think step 1 will be to choose a spring rate for my specific setup. Then we can go into everything else after that. What spring rate would you all suggest? Keep in mind I have 27mm front and rear bars. I was thinking 400 all the way around, but not sure if that will add too much stiffness to the rear relative to the front... so... suggestions? Also what length spring should I use for 400# springs? I read one guy with 6" 400# springs and have heard of 7" 400# springs but wasn't sure if this was all the way around or what.

OK so I think I will be going for a KONI - GC setup very soon.

If you all could give me some advice I'd appreciate it.

I've been reading a lot about KONI - GC setups on NASIOC and quite frankly am very intimidated. I'm especially concerned about choosing the components correctly to allow for proper lowering (from what I've heard, 13.5" from wheel center to fender in the front is optimal) and shock travel. I really want to make sure that I don't bottom out the shocks so that the KONIs last.

I think step 1 will be to choose a spring rate for my specific setup. Then we can go into everything else after that. What spring rate would you all suggest? Keep in mind I have 27mm front and rear bars. I was thinking 400 all the way around, but not sure if that will add too much stiffness to the rear relative to the front... so... suggestions? Also what length spring should I use for 400# springs? I read one guy with 6" 400# springs and have heard of 7" 400# springs but wasn't sure if this was all the way around or what.
I'm in the same boat. There isn't a single unified place for the Koni/GC stuff for the Impreza. Some tips I've picked up so far:

-It looks like to get enough shock travel you need to go with skinny camber plates - either the ones that Ground Control themselves makes, or the RCE plates.
-User "qoncept" has already gotten his setup pretty nailed down - you can dig through his posts for some information. He got -3.3 in the front with the GC camber/caster plates and is running a ride height of 13.75" center of hub to fender.
-Check IWSTI too - there are a handful of folks on there who have done this on their 04 STi's.
-Mark at Ground Control has an 04 STi and is a very good person to ask these questions to. In a post on IWSTI he said the OTS Konis were OK with up to 600# springs - but I don't know how long they would last like that. I'm targeting 400 or 450. The folks on IWSTI have repeated over and over again that Mark is the ONLY person to talk to there.
-Ground Control can apparently supply a lower bracket for the Konis so you don't need to hack stock struts ($150/corner)

I'll be in touch with GC pretty soon to discuss my options.

john

I'm going on my second full season with the Koni/GC setup. I'd highly recommend getting the D_rex bump extenders for the fronts, I'd consider them almost a necessity if you plan on going with bottom mount cc plates. I'm using the Ground Control top mount plates with the D_rex extenders and 450# front springs/strano fsb and there's still not a whole lot of bump travel available at a 14" ride height, IMO 13.5" in front is too low, especially with anything lower than 400#.

As for spring lengths, my front springs (again 450#) are 8", you can get away with a little shorter in the rear. In the rear, 400 to 450# 8" long springs will have your perches at the bottom of the sleeves for a ~13.5" rear ride height (sedan). I tried a set of 500# rear springs at the end of last season and had to order them in a 7" length to get any kind of useable adjustability out of them.

I've had to run on my stock struts/springs for the first 2 events (one of which was in heavy heavy rain) as my koni's have been at ProParts the last couple months. They finally got them shipped out to me last friday so I'll be getting back to a testing again after this week. I'm going to start out at 450F/R again since that felt more neutral and controllable to me than running the higher rear spring rates last year. I'm also planning on trying out dropping down to 400# (or maybe just digging out my old 375# springs) in the rear. After getting a chance to run on just my swaybars with the stock springs and a far from ideal, half-assed alignment I was surprised how quick it still was with a softer rear setup, I ended up PAXing in pretty much the same exact spot I normally did last year, right between last year's EM Nat'l champ and the second place finisher, half a second out of first. I did some math on the spring frequencies after that event and found that percentage difference between front and rear spring rates is almost exactly what is recommended by Dennis Grant in his online "Autocross secrets".

Hope that's enough information to get you in the right direction or maybe just confuse the heck out of you :)

Do not know if this has been mentioned yet or not but one nice STX legal mod is the Whitline Caster Bushing Kit, adds caster to the front wheels and has firm bushings so helps turn-in response. KCA375, add a 'M' on the end for the race version. PM me if you are interested. Shop has some in stock.

-Greg

I thought changing the mounting points of the lower control arm was illegal in STX. I understood the rulebook as saying that caster change is only permitted by the use of camber plates...

I thought changing the mounting points of the lower a-arms was illegal in STX...

There is a specific allowance for offset replacement bushings. 14.8-B

KCA375 is STX legal unless the rules have changed so it is not legal but to my knowledge the rules have not changed.

-Greg

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

I'm going on my second full season with the Koni/GC setup. I'd highly recommend getting the D_rex bump extenders for the fronts, I'd consider them almost a necessity if you plan on going with bottom mount cc plates. I'm using the Ground Control top mount plates with the D_rex extenders and 450# front springs/strano fsb and there's still not a whole lot of bump travel available at a 14" ride height, IMO 13.5" in front is too low, especially with anything lower than 400#.

As for spring lengths, my front springs (again 450#) are 8", you can get away with a little shorter in the rear. In the rear, 400 to 450# 8" long springs will have your perches at the bottom of the sleeves for a ~13.5" rear ride height (sedan). I tried a set of 500# rear springs at the end of last season and had to order them in a 7" length to get any kind of useable adjustability out of them.

I've had to run on my stock struts/springs for the first 2 events (one of which was in heavy heavy rain) as my koni's have been at ProParts the last couple months. They finally got them shipped out to me last friday so I'll be getting back to a testing again after this week. I'm going to start out at 450F/R again since that felt more neutral and controllable to me than running the higher rear spring rates last year. I'm also planning on trying out dropping down to 400# (or maybe just digging out my old 375# springs) in the rear. After getting a chance to run on just my swaybars with the stock springs and a far from ideal, half-assed alignment I was surprised how quick it still was with a softer rear setup, I ended up PAXing in pretty much the same exact spot I normally did last year, right between last year's EM Nat'l champ and the second place finisher, half a second out of first. I did some math on the spring frequencies after that event and found that percentage difference between front and rear spring rates is almost exactly what is recommended by Dennis Grant in his online "Autocross secrets".

Hope that's enough information to get you in the right direction or maybe just confuse the heck out of you :)

I am a bit confused... especially about the 8" length. Another user (Cosworth) was running 6" 400# springs... that's a big difference... so now I am not sure what length to go with.

does anyone here machine the D_rex extenders? I have a few concerns with them:
1. don't they technically void the KONI warranty?
2. not really a concern, but is the extender welded on or is it just bolted on using the lower bolt that attaches the KONI to the strut? It seems like it would not be as sturdy this way.

I don't have a machine shop to make the spacer myself... even though next semester I am taking a machine shop class so i could make it then - only the problem is that I want to get this stuff done this summer so I can have it on my car for the rest of the summer...

I don't quite like the GC top mount plates, as I'd like to keep my strut bar, especially with the higher spring rates I'll be running (I've heard that people have had their windshield flex over cracks in the road with high rates and no strut bar). I've heard that modified Noltec plates can provide close to 7 degrees of caster, does this sound reasonable? Are they a good mate to KONIs?

check w/ Clint at TIC they were thinking about making the extenders

the Noltecs w/ some "work" could probably get the caster in the 6.0+ degree range- they will eat some travel up at your desired height, the RCE lowering plates will actually "give you back" ~ 8mm of bump travel.

can't help w/ the spring lengths

Not sure if the extenders would void the Koni warranty. Honestly, if you did need warranty work done on them I don't know how they'd ever know you were running them anyway unless you told them.

The bump extenders are bolt on pieces, you open up the bottom of the strut housing enough to let the insert sit all the way down so the flat lip on the outside edge is sitting on the inside of the hole you've made. The extender is the right diameter to mate up with the remaining portion of the bottom of the strut housing that the insert is resting against on the inside with a hole machined in it for the bottom of the strut insert to go into. You then use the same bolt that you'd use hold the strut insert in place in a normal Koni install. I wouldn't worry about bolting vs. welding, IMO it's a much stronger install than the standard Koni insert mounting method as you've got a lot more surface area in solid contact.

As for spring lengths, you could probably get by with a 6" spring, but you've got to take the block length of the spring into consideration, i.e. how tall the spring will be once it's been completely compressed.

Eibach's website shows a block length of 3.24" for their 8x2.5" 400# springs This means they have a total spring travel of about 4.76". Figure in the sprung weight pushing down on it of about 950# (I figured that by measuring spring compression on 350# springs) and you use up 2.4" of the springs travel just at rest leaving you with 2.3" of useful suspension travel before the spring is compressed to a solid unit (not a good thing)

Eibach doesn't even list a 6" spring in anthing lower than 450# on their website and that one has a block length 2.49" leaving you with only 3.51" of travel of which the weight of the car will use up 2.1" so you've got less than 1.5" of suspension travel, really not good.

One more thing that I JUST now remembered that you should probably be aware of....

Initially when I put my GC sleeves on the rear Koni inserts wouldn't sit all the way down inside the strut housing. The top of the insert would only go as deep as the lip on the inside of the GC sleeve, leaving about a 1/2" gap between the bottom of the insert and the bottom of the housing. I ended up cutting and grinding the weld off the stock spring perch and re-welding it back on about 3/4" (if memory serves me correctly) lower so that the top of the Koni insert was flush with the top of the GC sleeve when the insert was fully seated into the strut housing.

Without doing this as well you'll have less rear travel, less adjustment range, and probably have to use a shorter rear spring.

Wow, this whole project is becoming more and more overwhelming. I don't even have cutting or welding tools/experience so i'm gonna have to find people with that. Does everyone modify the rear like posted in post 119? I was under the impression that the fronts were the only ones people really modified extensively, and that the rears seemed to be more or less bolt on.

How did you calculate the figure of 2.4" of travel at rest? I'd like to see the calculations in a bit more detail so i can try different numbers myself, or I might just run some numbers by you to see what you think :)

A spring with a rate of 400#/in will compress 1" for every 400# of force on it. 400# -> 1", 800# ->2", 1200# ->3".

Simply divide the force on the spring by the spring rate. In this case the sprung weight of each of the front corners is about 950#. Divide 950 by 400 and you get 2.375" that the spring will compress under the weight of the car. Subtract that number from the block length of the spring and you get the remaining travel available from that spring. In this case, ~2.3".

Make sense?

As for the rears, you could get away without moving the spring perches down, they'll still work. I just wanted to maximize the amount of travel and adjustment I could get out of it. If you wanted to do the same you should be able to find a local welding shop that will do the work for you pretty cheaply, probably around $50.

lol, that was really simple, I was just being stupid :P

I think I just didn't see where the 950# came from, but I guess that's just something that you had to look up and/or measure. What is the sprung weight on each of the rear corners?

oh, yeah, another question - once the KONI is in the strut housing, is it easy to remove to have it shipped in for service? I remember some people saying that the insert has two little knubs on it that prevent the KONI from being pushed any further into the strut, but by hammering in the insert and/or inserting and torquing the lower bolt the insert would be sucked the rest of the way into the strut housing.... there were really no pictures of this because the threads were so old - but it seemed to me that if it was so hard to get them in, it would be even harder to get them out. If I can pull them out then I don't care about using the D_rex extended spacer as they wouldn't know I had them as Aaron B mentioned. Not like they are a bad thing - it seems like having them is a good thing that extends the life of the KONI and they are all about using the KONI properly. SO long as, in the worst case scenario, I can still get them rebuilt/replaced for free I'll be happy with whatever mounting method I use.

I measured the 950 by basically using that equation backwards. I had my lighter 350# springs installed at the time and had the floor leveled. I raised the car to the point that the spring was fully extended then lowered the car, rolled it back and forth to settle the suspension and measured again. At that point it was just punching in the difference in spring lengths and the rate of the spring to find the force pushing down on it, i.e. the sprung weight of that corner. Basically, a poor mans corner weighting.

The rears I believe were about 550# each, I'll have to check the exact number when I get home. This was all with about a 1/4 tank of gas, the trunk gutted, no muffler, my race seat and 155# of weights in the drivers seat.

Yes, the Koni's have nubs on the side to hold them solidly in place but they can be removed by backing out the bottom bolt part way and giving the bolt a solid whack with a deadblow mallet, then back it out a little more and repeat until the insert comes loose.

I'm gonna take a moment to change the subject for just a second. I've been calculating the cost of this project and it is likely going to be close to $1500. Now, hypothetically speaking, lets say that this is a lot of money for me (which it is)... can I get 80-90% of the performance with a cheaper setup?

I was thinking specifically of the Megan Racing Coilovers (or Helix Coilovers). THe Megans are about $900 for a set, are typically regarded well on these forums, and are a simple, one-piece solution to completing my suspension. I thought of some ideas - the race series (12k front/10k rear) is the same price and has matched valving for those springs - it might be a good solution but those rates are going to be tough for a daily driven car... THe street series is 8k front and 6k rear, which is more bearable, but I was hoping for a more even setup. what about using the street series up front and the race series in the rear to give me 8k front and 10k rear? Which of these would be a good setup with my 27/27 sways?

I ask because I realize that the Megans are ~1/2 the cost of the KONIs... just need to justify why spending those extra pennies is really worth it. Plus I feel extremely intimidated at this point to correctly set up my KONI/GCs and am unsure if I can do it right the first time.

Keep in mind that I am not going to be setting up a national level car - I know a lot of you probably frown on entry level coilovers, but if I can get a decent performance for the reduced cost then it might be the way to go. AaronB I believe I saw a post of yours regarding getting the Megans for your forester - I'd appreciate your feedback relating the KONI/GC setup to the Megans.

My main 2 concerns about the Megans are
1. Wearing them out and where to get them rebuilt (and how often)
2. Camber in the front - with a wagon, I am worried about getting enough camber, as right now at stock setup I can only muster -0.9 on one side (I think something must have been bent or something). That with the addition of losing ~0.7 degrees with a sedan style mount has me worried if I can even clear -2 degrees....

If forced to choose between $1000 for some Megans or $0 to wait until I could afford the Konis, I would do the latter, personally. I've never ridden in a Megan'd car but if you're DD'ing on them I would definitely want to do that first.

Having a meaningful range of adjustment is pretty nice - that's one of the big reasons I like the Konis. The ones I have on the Miata, on full soft, ride better than the stock stuff IMHO.

john

Oh yeah. If you *are* going to spend $1000 short term... you could get the Konis, and the camber plates, but run stock springs or find some cheap/used lowering springs. Then get the Ground Controls later. That way you don't have to sell anything when you have more cash on hand.

john

Yeah I suppose my frustration is not so much about cash, just intimidation of the KONI-GC setup... I keep going through the cycle

1. I want the KONIs and GCs
2. I reallize how expensive they are and how difficult to set up
3. I reconsider the cheaper alternatives (Megans/Helix)
4. Repeat.

lol, its pretty funny. I'd still like some feedback from some people (especially AaronB) on the Megans, especially if they have auto-xed them before. My friend auto-xes on his Helixes and they are holding up just fine. I do like the idea of maybe just going with conventional springs, camber plates, and KONIs - might be a good, simple solution - if I did that I probably would wait a long time (as in years) to do the GCs. If I can find a decently stiff spring for a reasonable price I might just do that... dunno...

Yeah and on second though I don't think the GC camber plates would work with a normal sized spring. So ignore that suggestion for now :lol:

I don't know enough about the "stiffer" lowering springs for the Impreza. Espilir GT maybe?

john

I have the Megan "streets" on my wagon and am very happy. For a daily driver I could not see the reason spending $2k+ on "serious" coilovers when I get 90% of the performance.
I looked into the Koni/GC setup too before I bought and it seemed like a lot of $$$ to be hacking together. For the $1500 you could get better coilovers than Megans.

I am at ~ -2.9deg of neg camber up front FYI.

My two cents.

Not me with the Forester, apparently there's another AaronB on the site (without the space before the 'B') I've gotten a few pm's directed at him in the past....

Anyhoo,

I know where you're coming from, I started into the Koni/GC setup thinking it would be the economical way of doing things, but by the time you get all the bugs worked out and start playing with spring rates you can have a decent chunk of change dumped in them. If you do decide to go the Koni/GC route I'd be willing to part with my original set of 350# 8" coils. I also have a pair of 6" 375# springs that I used in the rear for a while.

The other coilover setup I was considering before taking the plunge on my current route were the Progress coil overs. Pricewise, they're in between the Megan's and the Koni/GC (fully set up), the quality seems to be pretty decent, they're revalveable to tune for different setups and Josh Sortor seems to have had pretty decent luck with them (winning the '05 STX championship).

*edit - wow, didn't realize I was responding after all these posts on the second page

Like was suggested, I started out with the Konis and no coil overs. My setup before getting the GC's was the Koni's with a set of STi pink springs, Progress sway bars (21/23F, 20-24R) and doubled up camber bolts on the front. I was able to get about 2.5 degrees of camber with the crash bolts on the bottom. Had I found the Espelir GT springs before I got the pinks I would have gotten those, but it also would have required the '04+ rear top hats. Honestly, I think the Espelir GT springs with your big Whiteline FSB, a set of Konis and some form of additional camber (and preferrably caster too) adjustment would be a pretty solid, inexpensive setup.

Oh yeah. If you *are* going to spend $1000 short term... you could get the Konis, and the camber plates, but run stock springs or find some cheap/used lowering springs. Then get the Ground Controls later. That way you don't have to sell anything when you have more cash on hand.

john

YUP. That is the way to go. Get the Koni's and upgrade to GC's later.

there are some firmish "regular" springs out there- they won't get near some of the GC rates, but as interim "solution" might work- my Tarmacs are 342/285

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=695688

STi/Arai, STi tarmac and Espelir GT are probably the top 3 to look at from a spring rate vs drop perspective.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

I think I am going to focus my research in on these springs... The Espelir GTs look VERY appealing, that is if I am looking at the right ones... they are affordable too (around $250). I find a lot of the higher rate conventional springs are closer to $400, making the GC setup that much more appealing.

So some questions.... I believe I would be looking for a version 7 (V7) spring, correct? I can't get much from searching "v7 or v8" as they both are only 2 characters long. As far as I know, v7 applies to 02-03 and v8 applies to 04+... is this correct?

The V6 Tarmacs look very nice as well, is it possible to use this on an 02 wagon?

The v8s (and other 04+ springs) on the other hand work just fine on an 02 wagon so long as I get rear 04 tophats, correct? Can I still get a hardened rear top hat such as the Group N?

I did a quick comparison of some of the springs just to see how they stack up against each other... the idea being the closer the ratio to 1 the better (hopefully dialing out some understeer) but it looks like they are all about the same as stock... which means the overall balance of my car shouldn't be upset too much with just the spring rates. Perhaps I could also mix springs, say the Espelirs up front and the Tuned by Arai in the rear, though I doubt I could just buy half of each set...

Stock 02 Wagon:
rates: 163/132 Ratio: 1.23

Espelir GT:
rates: 280/230 Ratio: 1.22

STI Tuned by Arai:
rates: 324/274 Ratio: 1.18

The STI tunes by Arai are the most appealing, but are also expensive as I recall... I checked them out when someone else suggested them in this thread a while back, and at that point found them, but this time I could not find any prices... some of these springs are listed in places but I can't find where to buy them! Same with those STI Tarmacs... BIGSKY if you could post up a link of where you got yours that would be a great help! Those look very appealing too, but the rates you listed do not coincide with the rates on the link Aaron B posted.

Espelirs are a great bang for the buck mod. I don't know if the stock struts can dampen that rate though...maybe someone else can chime in here.

The Tarmacs listed in that link are the GC/GF Tarmacs, the ones I'm talking about are the v8 Tarmacs which are also called tuned by Arai

There are actually two varities (and different part #'s) the one is 324/274, the other 342/285- rallispec or RCE can get either (both are speical order from Japan), but your correct both are close to $400

These springs are the same ones found on the Impreza "speciality" vehicles- spec C RA, S204, RA-R and the like

The v8s (and other 04+ springs) on the other hand work just fine on an 02 wagon so long as I get rear 04 tophats, correct? Can I still get a hardened rear top hat such as the Group N?


Yes and Yes. I think you know this, but just to be sure ... Dont forget that the rear wagon springs are physically longer than the sedan (fronts are the same), so you will end up with the saggy butt if you use sedan springs (which you could correct w/lowering camber plates like RCE, but then you will be looooow).

Like others suggested, I say do the Koni's first and save for what you want for a later upgrade. Having driven in stock class cars w/Koni's on full tilt, I can say I believe you will be VERY happy with them!!!

Or you could shop used... There was a suspension for sale from an ex-national champ wagon if you are serious. With like 650lb Tien RA's :) PM me if you are interested.

Personally, I am going w/Koni's and waiting for RCE to finish their wagon spring... and if that doesnt work out then I will go the GC route. So I am following this thread to catch any GC suggestions/advice :) Thanks for asking the questions...

I am not reading all the way back.

If you already have Koni's, I would go Tanabe GF210's for the STi. I loved those springs and did well with them in STX.

The other coilover setup I was considering before taking the plunge on my current route were the Progress coil overs. Pricewise, they're in between the Megan's and the Koni/GC (fully set up), the quality seems to be pretty decent, they're revalveable to tune for different setups and Josh Sortor seems to have had pretty decent luck with them (winning the '05 STX championship).

I've got Josh's Progress coils now and have had my best ever results since putting them on.
They are not user adjustable unless you re-valve them yourself (which is not hard I'm told), but Josh did a lot R&D and came up with valving that works. You can order them from Progress with the same valving that he developed.

hmm... now I am even more concerned about ride height.

I wouldn't want to correct the saggy butt issue by lowering the front more... I would just want to raise up the rear.

It looks like I will stick with the Espelirs, don't see the point of buying $400 springs when I can get GCs for the same price. Also I noticed a lot of Espelirs on these forums for cheap used... any danger in buying a used spring?

Other concerns of mine:
1. Washer mod - heard this mentioned about the rears in addition to getting 04+ tophats...
2. The specs for the Espelirs are with respect to an STI - they say -30mm front and -20mm rear... but since the STI is already lower than a stock WRX, won't this translate to an even lower stance for my car in the front and rear?
3. I can raise the car back up with camber plates up front (they completely replace the stock tophats, correct?)... what about the rear? Any way to raise it back up? I have my rear fenders rolled, but am concerned about rubbing with my 17x8 235/40 azenis if I go too low...

I have a 03 wagon, so I had the same issues. You dont need the washer mod if you have 04 tops and use 04+ Koni inserts (I have to thank BIGSKY for that tip - I got it from one of his post somewhere).

I am not aware of any good way to raise the rear...

aha! After researching the washer mod for about 20 minutes I was thinking the same thing - 04 style KONIs and 04 tophats... seems to resolve all issues if I just pretend my car is an 04 and get all of those parts...

SO the 04 KONI inserts fit perfectly fine in 02-03 struts?

I'm running 04+ inserts in 02/03 housings :)

Make sure your looking at the entire drop front and rear each spring will provide- you can roughly figure an ~ 8mm additional drop in the rear w/ non wagon specific springs. Also insure you know what the advertised drop is on- a spring that is made for the STi you can add an additional 10mm of lowering on a WRX. Also double check via folks actual experience w/ the drop vs advertised drop- we've seen lots of spring that advertise one thing and produce something completely different. Homework is important :)

wow, so the advertised drop for the Espelirs is 30mm front, 20mm rear.

On a WRX, it would be 40mm front, 30mm rear, and on a WRX wagon it would be 40mm front and 38mm rear... is this right? If so that sucks, that seems like way too much lowering...

I think I heard that Espelirs seem to drop even lower than they advertise... hope this isn't true... anyone have first hand experience? This gets more and more complicated no matter what I do :(

it's never easy is it :)

BIGSKY, any suggestions for raising up the rear? maybe a different top-hat (or maybe camber plates in place of a rear top hat?)

EDIT - I started a new thread about the Espelirs on a wagon in the suspension forum if anyone wants to follow along:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=18109891#post18109891

camber plates generally add to ride height in the front, I don't know if this holds true in the rear

real quick question - what is the fitment like of 05+ STI struts on a wagon? I found some used with Espelir springs attached for a good deal, and was thinking they'd make a good backup to the KONIs if I ever need to ship one in to get replaced (just so I can still drive my car around). ALso, would the stock rear tophat for an 05 STI be a good mate to the Espelir GT springs in the rear (04 style)? Is the stock STI rear tophat as good as the STI group N tophat?

I guess I am just seeing if I can use the stock 05 STI rear tophat as a substitute to the 04 style STI Group-N tophat.

okay, prepare yourselves for another dumb question!

Would conventional rear tophats (either 04, the 05 STIs, or the Group-Ns) allow for the KONI dampening adjustment knob to stick through so I can adjust it easily? I ask because of that big silver cover thing on the stock shock that seemingly blocks all view of where the knob would be. Do I have to drill a hole in the tophat for the knob to stick through?

<going out to look at the rear tophats on my car right now>

EDIT - it looks like a cover but I don't want to take the strut bar off my car just to check - anyone know a quick answer?

the 05+ struts won't fit- the mounting ears n the front strut are different (they went to a more robust knuckle up front).

the metal caps are covers likely to reduce noise in the cabin- the insert comes up right in the middle of the strut- that's where you adjust- w/ a wagon it's easy/schmeasy- a sedan has to come up w/ lengthened adjusters or remove the seats :(

just remove the caps when you put the Koni's in

ok, that is what I thought.

Any idea if just the STI 05 tophat will work with 04 style KONIs and the Espelirs?

Anyone know how the stock 04 rear tophats compare to STI (05) tophats and/or GroupN rear tophats? Which are good better and best?

I'm hoping the STI tophats will work, and also hoping they are better than 04 WRX tophats (it would make sense).

the tops are the same WRX and STi- same part #'s, if you want firmer- which I would advise- you need to go to Grp N (or a metal top)

I just leave that steel 'cap' off.

Just be glad you have a wagon, us sedan guys gotta pop the back seat out to make adjustments :(

how much of a difference do you suppose I'd feel with the GRP N versus stock STI?

Also looking at front camber/caster plates right now. Currently, my first choice is the NOLTEC race plates, with PDE in second place.

Question on the Noltecs - they are recommended for rates higher than 350# (see this link: http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=NOL44003S )

will they be ok with the Espelirs?

Noltec has two different versions of their camber plates, standard and 'race'. The standard ones apparently have a poly ring built in to reduce vibration which isn't compatable with high spring rates. I think that it's just a marketing mix up. Instead of the 'race' plates stating "for spring rates over 350#", the standard ones should read "for spring rates up to #350."

Grp N vs stock- if your going to be running firmer rates (and sounds like you are) then I'd highly recommend the Grp N's- a less firm spring like the WRX Prodrive probably not as important.

The "regular" Noltecs should be fine w/ any of the "traditional" springs- remember though that the Noltec plates (as well as most others) will add ride height to the front- that may be OK depending on the spring

OK. I will likely be running the Espelir GTs, but I think I will go for the race versions of the plates so I can keep the door open for Ground Controls down the road if I want stiffer rates.

Another question - the "Makofoto mod" as its now known as of modifying the NOLTEC plates looks very appealing - getting almost 7 degrees of caster! I'd definitely like to do this, even if straight out of the box on new plates. My idea is to run as much caster as possible so static camber can be reduced for a slightly more streetable setup. Can anyone chime in on how easy it is to do (and if it's easy to screw up the plates doing so!)? Also, I assume it is STX legal as it isn't really changing mounting points, just changing the "design" of the plates.

I just missed out on a set of these modified plates used, which I was actually planning on buying in the back of my head... I should have acted sooner :( Now it will be much more expensive, and I'll have to cut them up myself.

pm Mako- looks like a pretty easy mod- as long as you don't remove too much material you'll be golden :) stx legal too

oh and another option I found for the springs:

RCE springs - they don't have published rates but are supposed to be 25% stiffer than STI pinks, putting them at about 321/271... but sounds like they might be a bit closer together. They are slightly progressive and have great reviews on iwsti.com, also are a bit more money.

Anyone heard of them and has feedback?

If you can wait they will have wagon specific set coming out in about 3-4 weeks

Should work well w/ the Koni's

I modified my Noltec camber/caster plates. Had a local exhaust shop take a plasma cutter to the plates to broaden the radius of the top blue plate to move the top of the coilover inboard and back. Also had to trim the gold plate sandwiched between the blue plates so the gold plate doesn't bump up against the interior of the strut tower. Cost around $30. Probably added .5 in negative camber and about 1.5 degrees in caster. It allowed me to purchase sedan coilovers -- KWV3s -- get -3.1 camber and around 6 degrees of caster. The wagon handles well on the track. Modifying Cusco camber plates looks easier and tidier though.

If you can wait they will have wagon specific set coming out in about 3-4 weeks

Should work well w/ the Koni's

Really? Do you know if they will be the same stiffness as the STI RCE springs? And is it really 3-4 weeks, or is that just hopeful thinking?

Thanks triguy, got any pics (maybe of the plates marked up and ready to be cut?)

nevermind, I am retarded. I see the long thread about RCE wagon springs. Looks like it will be a great choice for me.... ah decisions decisions!!!

This is getting expensive too... the RCEs will be about $330, the camber/caster plates $268, KONIs $700, and GRP Ns $200... that's about $1500.... ouch!

Maybe I should sell the car and get an STI... I don't know what that would accomplish though.

Alright, I gotta get this rolling. I figure I ought to order the KONIs first, as that is really the first step.

Anyone have any good suggestions as to where I should order them from? I've searched a bit, heard that Tire Rack is a good vendor, but still looks expensive!

I bought my Konis from Ground Control. They get a palette of them pretty regularly so odds are they'll have the ones you need in stock.

john

I recently brought Konis from these guys:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1186614

Seem to be a good vendor....

Thanks for the info. Anyone ever had to replace a shock because its been blown? Is the process pretty quick in terms of shipping it out and getting a new one back? I want to minimize downtime if I ever do in fact blow one.

I have one out for repair now, but it kinda falls into the rough end of the circumstances :(

Just got my set back from ProParts, getting some valving done similar to what Jeff Barco is using. Forgot to put the bumpstops back on the front ones, hit a frost heave in the road driving home from work and messed one up. Unfortunately, with a custom valve it's gotta go back to ProParts for repair instead of just getting replaced by Koni. Ended up ordering a single backup from the TireRack just so I'd have something to run on.

It was easy to modify the Noltecs ... but I to used a Plasma cutter that we have at the shop.

btw. I wouldn't use the Noltecs if I was doing this again ... I would use Barco'ized Cusco's ... round ones, with added holes so that you can rotate the plate to 45 degrees back ... plus you need to have the Slot lengthened so that you can get Max Camber and Caster when you want it.

The Noltecs are OK ... although heavy ... and they are a bit vague when using any position except along the edges ... where you can put a mark. If you are changing from street to race and back again frequently, the Cusco allow more precision. We're using them with ride height adjustable coilovers so the added heights is not an issue. The problem with the RCE type is that they don't allow the extreme amounts of camber/caster that we go for in AX ... I believe.

Ah Jason ... that's why you were MIA last weekend ... we missed you ...

The problem with the RCE type is that they don't allow the extreme amounts of camber/caster that we go for in AX ... I believe.



this is probably true- about a degree of extra caster and camber at ~ -2.2 maxed out, maxed camber only- probably -2.5- maybe a little more.

they are nice w/ "traditional" spring/struts- as they can actual lower the front ride height (~ 8mm) or or add 0 height- nice w/ Ground Control setups too as they actually add some bump travle back for a given height.

And just so you can plan for the future ... the top STX WRX's are using up to -5 degrees of Camber and +6 degrees of Caster ...

^^^^ :eek:

ok, so lets go back to square one....

Given my 27mm front and rear sway bars....

what spring rates are ideal? I am especially wondering about bias (more spring rate in the rear, less in the rear, or equal.

For example, which of the following do you all think would be best to get good rotation but not excessive oversteer (remember my big sway bars).

front/rear
8k/6k
8k/8k
8k/10k

10k/8k
10k/10k
10k/12k

12k/10k
12k/12k

With the big front bar you don't want springs that are too heavy ... of course, stiff springs and a light sway bar are better. Spring help in braking and acceleration while sway bars only help in cornering.

8K/10K would be OK with that bar.

You can also control balance by raising and lowering your rear end. Higher = more oversteer. Go to around 13.5" ride heights in front ... and balance with the rear. Rear will be around 13.75

I think you'll get several diferent answers- as many of those combos are being run- I think many (most??) are running a slightly higher rear rate vs front to help w/ rotation.

Any concerns w/ daily driver ability? Obviously that would have an impact on the decision.

right ... are we talking optimium for AX? For street, big sway bar better then stiff springs obviously. But since he was contemplating 12K springs ... we can almost assume he's looking for a AX set-up. 12K isn't fun for the street.

^ I'd agree w/ that :)

yeah it will be daily driven and auto-xed as well. The main "race" use for this car will be auto-x... I'm trying really hard to stay away from track racing because I don't want to seriously put the reliability of the car in jeopardy. Even though track days here are $40 for half a day and $80 for a full day...

By daily driven, I mean I use the car to move in and out of my apartment down the road 70 miles from my house while I'm at school. During the school year, I drive the car a bit around town but not too much (small town) so it sees more race use than "daily" driving sometimes. During the summer I go to work with it, but a lot of times car pool to work. So in the end I usually only put ~7k miles on the car in a year.

I rode in my friend's EVO with 8k/9k rates and it seemed tolerable... so I think I can handle those kinds of rates for sure... maybe 10k... but hard to say anything about 12k because that is a big jump...

I'd say that the answer I should shoot for is a "tolerable" daily driven setup. Although if you want to chime in on "optimum" setup that would be great too.

I'd like to keep my 27/27 front and rear bars. They kill A LOT of body roll but the stock shocks just can't handle them. With the big bars I easily keep up with my friend's coilover'ed Jetta with R-compounds (in fact I pretty much always beat her, and she's a good driver.) Can't quite keep up with my other friend who has a coilovered WRX now with ~100 hp more than me and 275 r-comps... even though before the R-comps I could almost hang with him.

My main concern is that the car will rotate too much with the current sway bars if I go with a stiffer spring rate in the rear. I should also mention, I'm not sure I can go with a stiffer rate in the rear very easily, as the coilovers I am currently considering only have a certain range of springs you can use that will work with the dampening range of the coilover. So the only realistic options are the front 2k higher than the rears or the fronts and rears equal. that being said, it seems the best is equal rates front and rear.... so I think it will come down to either 8k/8k or 10k/10k.... and in that case my bigger rear bar will help add more rotation since it is considerably stiffer than the stock bar than the front is stiffer than the stock bar (front went from 20 to 27 and the rear went from 17 to 27). Using whiteline's chart, I think the front bar is about 350% stiffer than the stock bar and the rear bar is something like 800%stiffer than the stock bar when each are in the stiffest setting. THis is something I am always thinking of in the back of my mind when thinking about adding spring rates to the equations... The car is pretty neutral with both bars in the stiffest setting, but it still pushes on corner entry if I am going too fast. I can control it pretty good by just backing off on corner entry, but I am probably losing time in the end. I don't know if its unrealistic to ever expect to get rid of understeer.... and I'm not exactly sure what a properly set up car should do upon a "too fast" corner entry...

sorry for the long rant, maybe it will help you guys give me some advice :)

My main concern is that the car will rotate too much with the current sway bars if I go with a stiffer spring rate in the rear. It's easy enough to try a smaller bar if this is the case. Or add negative camber in the rear. Or start playing with the shocks. Or screw with tire pressures. Or toe...

Many ways to skin this cat... you don't *have* to pick your springrates based on your bars - you could just as easily pick your springrates and then down-size the rear if you can't get the car how you like it. Someone will want it :)

Not saying you SHOULD do anything a specific way - just saying that there are all sorts of knobs you can turn here :)

john

You can make any car understeer by going too quickly into corners. Remember it's all about being able to get on the gas early ... not braking late. You gain more by getting on the gas early then braking late.

There are so many factors that you have to consider ... and you should start by learning everything you can about suspension, driving, etc. There are many threads in Motorsports about WRX AX set-up ... plus almost all of the National Champs and runner ups post here. In general they will tell you that they all have stiffer springs in the rear then front. 27 mm sway bar in the rear is too much. Think about how that is going to limit your droop. Almost all of them run with about 13.5" front ride heights and a bit higher in the rear. You gain more by lowering your center of gravity then you lose with non optimal front suspension geometry. Develop as much grip as you can in front ... add camber and caster ... typically around -4.5 camber and + 6 caster ... add some front spacers ... which is the equivalent of lowering your car futher ... and then balance with the rear ... typically adding more neg. camber to overcome snap oversteer. Run a bit of toe out front and rear. Why try to reinvent the wheel. (Set max front camber with about 3 to 6 mm toe out ... then reduce camber until your toe is 1 mm toe in ... mark that as your street setting. At the AX you then simply max out your camber and you have your race toe out setting. Afterwards just reduce camber to your street setting. It's toe that eats up tires, not camber ... especially if you tend to drive a bit spirited on the street.)

http://images9.fotki.com/v163/photos/4/43793/1961534/MakoNight-vi.jpg

I'm not running overly stiff rates, but am finding that w/ the 27mm bar up front, my 22mm adj bar set at "medium" (which should be 22mm ish) the car rotates fine

27mm rear bar is a pretty big bar- maybe w/ very soft rates it might be a good choice- I think you'll find as Makofoto states that w/ firmer springs you can get by w/ a smaller rear bar

Thanks for the setup tips... I am thinking of going with coilovers with 10k rates all the way around... they hinted too that when I order they'll throw in 12k springs that I can play with and put in the front or back to maybe tweak with everything.

Today was another auto-x. My friend noticed something interesting with his SM WRX... he was pulling very quick times (~2 seconds faster than me) but when he ditched his rear bar altogether he got much faster times - by about a second - and he said it handled a lot better. It sounds like the rear bar may not be necessary at all once I get coilovers. btw his spring rates are 8k front and 6k rear. He also has 275 r comps. Funny thing about the bar is that I ordered a 24mm but they accidentally shipped me the 27.... I tried it and it works great with stock springs, as the car has as little body roll as coilovers with milder rates.

As for me, I took STX again (thats 5 entries this season and 5 first places) and paxed 11th overall out of ~63 cars (at the last event I finished 11/63 as well, which is kind of freaky...) So I did well but the car just doesn't feel quite right. I know I can be faster as a driver for sure, but I just don't feel comfortable driving the car...

I was having a particularly difficult time in a wide sweeping 360 (kind of like a teardrop shape) around a light pole... the entry was a straightaway and tightened more and more throughout the turn... I came in with a lot of speed and was fine through the first half of the turn, but then had to brake in order to not understeer in the second half of it. I also noticed that my throttle input wasn't too great (I kept getting on and off the throttle). I really just wanted to cruise through it with constant throttle but I was having a really hard time doing that... maybe I should have braked harder on entry and then accelerated through the entire thing? Tough to say...

I think the addition of coilovers should lose about a second off my time... that will put me hopefully in the top 10 consistently in my region (its not the most competitive region but not bad). That will make me pretty happy. I probably won't even be able to go to national type events with this car so it seems like this will be a good addition to the car. I don't think I will be pursuing auto-x with this car much after I finish school... I am very tempted to upgrade to an STI and use that. But hard to say. My line of thought has transitioned to getting the most bang for my buck with this car for the time being. I am doing decent in my region currently and STX hasn't been too competitive this year so far, unfortunately, as I usually take the class by 2-3 seconds. So sometimes the need to upgrade isn't really there, but at the same time I really would like to have better shocks and stiffer springs to see what I can do.

Some quesitons:

1. For Makofoto - what type of allignment hardware are you using to get that much negative camber? I am thinking of just buying affordable coilovers with good camber/caster adjustments so that way I can have great allignment numbers for a good bang for the buck.

2. a bit more obscure: are TS wagon struts the same as WRX struts? My friend's family owns a junkyard and they might have a spare set, so that might provide a good candidate for a KONI install... just wondering if they are the same geometrically.

3. Do most camber/caster plates on the market work with pretty much any coilover? Like I said another alternative is cheap coilovers with very good camber plates to get the allignment I need. I think this will be an affordable option that will provide me with the right allignment numbers.

Interesting that your friend noticed that with the sways...that seems to be the going thing with the top ESP and BSP drivers on the forum. I tried disconnecting my rear swaybar today and we'll see how it feels next Saturday at my event.

Like I said ... reinventing the wheel with less or no rear sway bar. ;)

There are a couple of different methods of dealing with a decreasing radius corner in AX ... but typically, Tight Is Right. I use to to go in wide, trail brake to a late apex and try to get on the power as early as possible. But I would often over shoot the apex. Now I try to take a tighter line, tip toe if necessary to the point where I can get onto the power ... early. Left foot braking can be helpful here to allow later trail braking while keeping a bit of gas in until you can GO. If you can get your car to rotate under braking you can obviously get on the power early as soon as the car is pointing in the right direction. You can often unwind steering earlier then you think. Make sure you are looking at the exit as you come up to the corner otherwise you aren't giving your brain the data it needs to negotiate the corner efficiently.

Being in multi National Champ Gary Thomson's ASP Corvette ... which produced the fastest slaloms time ever in a Road & Track special test ... when he set fast time of the day at a Qualcomm (typical very fast wide open course on this huge lot) practice event was eye opening. I couldn't believe how patient he was around the slow corners ... literally tip toeing ... but then his speed in the fastest parts was jaw dropping ... a fine power on drift with nothing left to give ... and flicks through the lane changes that I was sure would scatter cones every where. IOW ... nothing to gain over cooking the slow corners ... and you've got much more speed available in the fast sections then you can imagine.

You get what you pay for. A number of our Team Blew guys bought inexpensive $1K coilovers ... and where ready to up-grade in a relatively short time. One ... the next morning after seeing the cheap springs settling a good half inch over night ... and rounding off cheap soft bolt heads during installation. The KSwiss ones were extremely difficult to adjust without jacking the car up ... not good in a AX situation.

One of our members bought another cheap $1K brand ... struggled mightly for over a year. Upgraded to Koni Inserts and within a couple of months is now challenging our Jeff Barco ... 2nd in STX at last years Nationals ... fastest raw time by far ... on his last two laps he clipped the last cone each time.

The Koni Inserts are outstanding ... not sure if that RS part you mention is interchangeable. Ask in the suspension forum. Teins, although they have won many national championship, over damp. Jost Sortor won his National STX Championship with Progress springs and struts ... but had them rebuilt five times to fine tune them. Another one of our members is using them ... and has even beat Barco with them. Barco himself has upgraded to $4.5K super custom Koni 2817 racing shocks, three way adjustable.

The camber plate to have are re-machined Cusco round plate ... with more holes drilled around the outside edge so that they can be rotated for more Caster, besides Camber. The Slot has to be re-machined for added travel. These will give up to -5 degrees Camber and +6 Caster.

got to go ... Sopranos final show ... more later

after reading all this I think I will try an event with no rear sway and see what it feels like.

I've been running a 17mm bar since the beginning of 2005. Car came with a 20mm, ran a Cusco 22 in 2004, then down-sized when I got the JIC's.

I don't know if it's optimal, but it sure suits my driving style. Last year I was running too much negative camber in the rear (2.1) and the car would kinda understeer in certain conditions, but with my current 400/450, -3.5/-.8 setup the car has great turn in, is very neutral and more importantly for me, very controllable.

john

No sway bar is probably too much ... just go back to your oem bar ... since your on oem springs I believe.

The top STX cars are running more then -2 rear neg camber now ... because they are developing so much grip up front.

John ... what are your toe settings? Ride heights?

I don't remember the ride heights on the JIC's. With the current stuff it's about 13.75 front, and maybe 14.25" rear right now. I temporarily raised the rear a little to try to troubleshoot a noise I was hearing and forgot to lower it before I got it aligned. And I was going to raise the front a little to 14".

I'm getting it cornerbalanced in a week or so. If fixing the ride heights changes the balance in a noticeable way I will figure out what to do next :)

john

I would lower the car a 1/4"all around and then adjust the toe again ... because you are going gain camber and front toe out by lowering ... before you get corner balanced ... but 1/4" isn't much

I am currently on 8k/10k setup with a 22mm front bar. Maybe I will just go to full soft and see what that feels like.
My current alignment
-3 up front, shade toe out
-.8 rear, 1/16th toe out
not sure on my caster, but it isn't adjustable, and I ain't headed down that path.

The camber plate to have are re-machined Cusco round plate ... with more holes drilled around the outside edge so that they can be rotated for more Caster, besides Camber. The Slot has to be re-machined for added travel. These will give up to -5 degrees Camber and +6 Caster.

got to go ... Sopranos final show ... more later

Do you think you can post a pic of a modified Cusco plate so I can get a better idea of the fabrication required?

Thanks for all the advice. I'm still torn about things.

I think the Ground Control KONI setup is out, at least for now. I'm keeping it in the back of my mind, but the fabrication time, fabrication skill required, and time required to "get it just right" just isn't for me. I only have one car, so if I can't find an extra set of struts I can't afford all that downtime, especially if I need to ship a KONI out for warranty work in the future. And I've heard dealing with KONI can be agravating at times.

The two setups I am currently considering are:

1. KONIs + RCE wagon springs + GRP-N rear tophats + Camber/caster plates
Cost: $1500
Pros: High quality
Cons: Cost is high (for me), spring rates may be less than ideal for auto-x - are around 300#, but not nearly as high as the seemingly more competitive rates of 10k-12k-ish.
Questions: Can I get a decent camber/caster plate that will work with conventional springs like this?

2. Megan Racing Coilovers (track series, with either 10k/10k or 10k/12k - they are pretty flexible with swapping springs and even giving me a pair of extra springs.
Cost: $950 (with swapped springs)
Pros: affordable, gives me the extra adjustability (ride height, dampening, preload, and changing springs). Rebuilds are cheap (replacement shock from Megan is $85, and you just need to reinstall all the other stuff (brackets, springs, tophats, etc) on the new one you get. That means affordable maintenance when they get blown)
Cons: Not as high quality, but not bad for the price. Not as good camber/caster adjustment but shouldnt be an issues with aftermarket plates.
Questions: Will aftermarket camber/caster plates work with these?

It's an interesting debate. I know many of you hate the "cheapo" coilovers but they are almost half the price of almost any other complete setup I can come up with... and more expensive coilover need to be rebuilt just as often, and many have more expensive rebuild costs (take for instance, the TEIN RA coilovers, which are very expensive to rebuild).

The Megans may not be as good quality, but they give me the stiff spring rates and a lot of adjustability for a nice price.

The KONI/RCE setup on the other hand won't give me as much adjustability and the springs won't be as stiff, but the dampening will be great. BUt they are a lot more expensive, and I still have to worry about downtime if I ever kill a KONI. (A guy in my region just had a very bad experience with KONI so it has made me weary)

Sorry for another long post, but it helps me sort these things out in an orderly fashion. I'm sort of confused. I want to get the suspension, but I don't want to spend much more money on the car... it is getting old and it just doesn't have the potential of some newer Imprezas... I keep thinking about cars I might buy after I graduate and am as a result having a hard time justifying a more expensive setup over something like the MEgans.

On another completely different note:

In the race on Sunday, I kept it in 1st gear the entire time, often times bounching off the rev limiter in some straightaways. (in case you are wondering, my region just lost a prime venue, and now we are stuck with a crappy bumpy small lot to run auto-xes in, at least during the summer). Anyways, my buddy was shifting between 1st and 2nd a lot because he finally mastered the heel-toe and rev match, plus the tranny cocktail he has works very well.

I also have a version of the famous cocktail (Uncle Scottys that is) except I just have syncromesh and normal tranny oil. It is better than before but still not perfect. Today I found a much easier way to get back into 1st.

Method 1: What I've always used, but is very tough on an auto-x course - and I'm doing so much else (driving, steering, braking, etc) that I have a hard time doing this smoothly.

clutch in --> shift out of gear --> clutch out --> rev match --> clutch in --> shift into first --> clutch out

Method 2: Is it bad for the tranny to just pull it out of gear without the clutch? I notice it can pop out of gear no problem without the clutch. I learned to drive standard by using the clutch to take it out of gear, but is it really necessary? Here's this method:

shift out of gear (no clutch) --> rev match --> clutch in --> shift into first --> clutch out

It is 10 times easier the second way and a lot faster. I can see it being very nice in an auto-x as it is less to think about... any reason why it would be bad for the tranny?

<end of super long post :)>

I'm not sure this modified Cusco plate has the slot lengthened for Maximum travel:

http://images109.fotki.com/v781/photos/4/43793/836092/DSCN0614-vi.jpg

The Megans are the one that Greg Peng was struggling with. When he recently switched to Koni Inserts he started to put up times rivaling Jeff Barco and beating '06 STU ProSolo National Champ and his very nicely prepared STI with his sponsors ZZZYZX custom struts and Seb Rios our '06 regional STX Champ with his WRX using Josh Sortors '05 National STX Championship struts.

If you aren't feeling any load on the gear box/shifter when doing that up shift ... it's fine.

Many of the other Teins are inexpensive and Fast to rebuild. The Cusco struts that Max used for his '06 ProSolo championship are expensive and take a long time to rebuild ... which is why he gladly switched to ZZZYZX.

Which Teins are good to get? Do you have more detailed info on how much I'd be looking at for rebuilds?

The KONIs are great, I know... but could a KONI/conventional spring combo (in this case, the Espelir GTs or the RCE wagon springs) rival a coilover for performance? The coilover is smaller in diameter, which will allow for more extreme allignments, and offers much stiffer rates and ride height adjustability.

What type of allignment could I get with the large OEM size springs? Do the Cusco or Noltec plates even work with a conventional spring?

As I see it the only setup with KONI I'd be willing to go with (at this point) is the KONI+conventional spring... it seems like coilovers are a step up... can someone suggest a good coilover to get (all I hear about are the ones to not get). Keep in mind my budget... I'd really like to keep the whole thing under $1500.

Rebuilds were $100/per ... took a week living here in Los Angeles. But you certainly should be able to go at least a couple of years before needing rebuilds ... unless you are looking for custom valving. The new Mono Flex's look good. I and many others used the old Flex's ... many think they have too much damping.

Send me your email address I'll get you in touch with Greg ... our very fast STX driver who was on Megans and another fellow who was on KSports. In the long term, you are going to spend less getting something decent to start with. On the other hand, whatever you get, you can easily sell.

I think one of the big advantages of coilovers is adjusting ride heights. Make sure whatever you get allows easy ride heights change without pre-loading your springs.

I would think you can get a decent amount of camber with oem springs ... ask on the Suspension forum. I don't think I've ever heard of issues with camber and spring diameter ... certainly not with the slight difference in spring diameter on coilovers.

yeah now that I think about it the springs should be fine for allignment, as the camber/caster plates move the entire strut/wheel together (whereas a camber bolt would move the wheel towards the spring perch possibly causing rubbage).

Still... any good camber plates for conventional springs? THe Cuscos look nice... oh and if you can find a more detailed pic of a modified one that would be cool :)

If I don't go with cheap coilovers I am more inclined to go with the KONI/RCE/GRPN/camber plate setup. That should work great with my oversized sways.

You can do Koni/GC, can't you? The coilover sleeves are $400, IIRC.

john

You can do Koni/GC, can't you? The coilover sleeves are $400, IIRC.

john


I originally planned on that, but the complexity of the fabrication and variability of setup (choosing different rates/lengths several times to get it right) has scared me off... getting a conventional style coilover seems so much easier.

We have a place in Los Angeles where you can order the Koni set-up directly, with altered specs if desired. Check with Chad or Greg for that info. I would just duplicate what phenom, but hard working Greg is using.

http://images24.fotki.com/v764/photos/4/43793/4785149/GregCleanFast-vi.jpg

yeah now that I think about it the springs should be fine for allignment, as the camber/caster plates move the entire strut/wheel together (whereas a camber bolt would move the wheel towards the spring perch possibly causing rubbage).

Still... any good camber plates for conventional springs? THe Cuscos look nice... oh and if you can find a more detailed pic of a modified one that would be cool :)

If I don't go with cheap coilovers I am more inclined to go with the KONI/RCE/GRPN/camber plate setup. That should work great with my oversized sways.

I'm on Koni single adjustable inserts coupled with Tein H-Techs. The H-Techs are not very stiff compared to many other options out there, but I'm totally loving the handling of my wagon. The Koni's made a really huge difference. I can't speak highly enough about them.

I have done my upgrades in a modular fashion. I recommend the same to you since money seems like an issue (like it is for me). Get the Koni's and camber plates first, then upgrade your springs to whatever you decide on when cash allows. The camber plates that I'm running are the MRT (Noltec) ones. Get the Cusco's instead, though either work fine with conventional springs.

There is no clearance issue with large negative camber and conventional springs as long as your wheel offset is proper (or you go really wide with wheels and tires).

Regarding the previous discussion regarding stiff springs and big sway bars...
I just re-read Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry A. Watts. One of the things he talks about is using tire temps to set sway bars. He recommends a 20-40 deg F difference between the front and rear tire temperature. If it's outside that range, change the sway bar setting on one end of the car to compensate (loosen the hot end bar or tighten the cold end). For instance, if your rears are 50 deg cooler than the fronts, tighten up the rear bar to make the rear tires do more work. I do not know if this is directly applicable to AWD cars, but I found it interesting. Has anyone else tried to use this method in adjusting their bars?

Buck

^^^ thanks! Good advice... I am really tempted to just go with a conventional setup... that way I don't have to deal with coilovers getting blown... sure I lose ride height - but at least I have a good reliable setup.

One problem with the modular approach - I'll be wanting STI-style (04+) springs - which means I need 04 style rear tophats and thus 04 style KONIs... so that pretty much means I have to get everything at the same time.... oh well.

On our Suby's the rear end is almost always just along for the ride ... and thus the tires are always quite a bit cooler. That is our plight. The fronts have the weight of the engine over them, are steering and putting down a lot of the power. It seems when the rear is doing more, that equals more understeer.

What do you guys think about this?

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1277489&highlight=cusco+camber+plates

I am not sure if you all know or not, but would the cusco rear plates work for me? (I emailed Gruppe-S already, just seeing if people here know).

The idea is to run:
KONI inserts (04)
RCE wagon springs (04 style)
Cusco F/R camber plates

This would eliminate the need for the STI Group N rear tophats... and save $$$... I'd get front/rear plates for $300, which is a good savings... plus I get easy to adjust camber front and rear so I can play with it when the time comes to have some fun.

The big question - do the Cusco REAR camber plates work with what would be an 04 style spring?

PS if the plates work with 02 and 04 style, that'd be great as I can get everything but the springs for now, and then get the springs once they are produced and ready to ship. However, I have my doubts about these working with conventional springs, let alone 04 style ones...

What does Gruppe S say? Nice thing about the Wagon ... easy to adjust the rear camber with those plates.

How did you end up with choosing RCE wagon springs ... limited choice of Wagon springs? What is their rate?

With the inserts ... you aren't going to be able to control your ride heights are you? Will the Cusco front camber plates raise your car further?

Hey,
So I have the most similar setup,27mm front and rear. When I had stock struts, the bars overpowered them, and I had snap oversteer. Your oversteer issues are with your dampers.

Currently I have coilovers with ~8k front and ~10k rear. The car actually turns in now, without having snap oversteer issues. Do not get lighter springs in the rear! It is more comfortable (for rear passsengers) on the street, but causes >UNDERSTEER< on the course.

^^ wait, so you are saying it will oversteer with softer springs in the rear? That doesn't make sense.

Mako - the choice of springs was basically to get the stiffest possible, but at the same time the most equal front to rear. Originally I really liked the Espelir GTs, which are 280/230, but then found out that the RCE springs were coming to the wagon (they don't have published rates but are supposed to be ~15% stiffer than STI pinks)... with the rears being "close" to the fronts.... the fronts should be around 300. The RCEs get great reviews from the STI community and were meant to be a good race/daily driver spring meant for a performance drop for wagons... only problem is that they are not available quite yet.

Gruppe-S replied and said:
Yes.. the Cusco plates are adaptable for all model years.. because you still
retain the stock upper spring seat that actually holds the spring in place
:)


Now I must be missing something... I thought that camber plates bolted directly to the springs and acted as the top perches... I guess not (???)

Do you suppose the camber plate sits between the tophat and the strut tower? I never understood why people say it raises the car... but I guess if you retain the tophats that makes sense...

How does it all fit together? I've never taken apart my suspension or done aftermarket suspension of any of my cars so I am sort of in the dark here... with the STI style springs do I need to buy tophats in addition to the camber plates?

Yes ... top hat, then camber plate, attached to the strut tower opening ... otherwise the strut couldn't pivot.

Look at this photo again:

http://images109.fotki.com/v781/photos/4/43793/836092/DSCN0614-vi.jpg

There is a ball joint in there to allow the strut to move.

If you don't have ride heights adjustment ... and need to keep the car lowered, then you need a camber plate like this ... but it has restricted camber/caster movement/adjustment:

http://images17.fotki.com/v295/photos/4/43793/836092/offcar_smallres-vi.jpg

A quick ninja edit: soft rear springs cause understeer, all else being equal.

OK - so it would be the top hat clamped down on the spring with the single bolt on the top holding it on... and then the camber plate on top of that. I presume the tophat sits inside the ball joint that is a part of the camber plate... correct? Where are the three studs attached to? The camber plate or the top hat?

Gosh I feel like such a noob. Its just hard to picture without seeing it in person I guess...

That means that my setup will be more expensive, as I was thinking that I would not have to get the group n top mounts... so basically that adds at least $200 to my previous estimate for group Ns all the way around.

If anyone has a picture of a conventional spring/strut/camber plate assembly, please post it thanks!

:)

OK - so it would be the top hat clamped down on the spring with the single bolt on the top holding it on... and then the camber plate on top of that. I presume the tophat sits inside the ball joint that is a part of the camber plate... correct? Where are the three studs attached to? The camber plate or the top hat?

Gosh I feel like such a noob. Its just hard to picture without seeing it in person I guess...

That means that my setup will be more expensive, as I was thinking that I would not have to get the group n top mounts... so basically that adds at least $200 to my previous estimate for group Ns all the way around.

If anyone has a picture of a conventional spring/strut/camber plate assembly, please post it thanks!

:)


No, the only thing under the camber plate is a washer and a cone shaped spring perch. The camber plate replaces the rubber tophat, and that's it.

Remember, the bottom of the camber plate (or stock tophate) is flat, so if there was nothing under it already, the top of the spring would have nothing to butt up against.

I'll try to find a pic on the interwebz...my service manual pdf is at home.

In the front the lower spring sits on top of the lower spring perch-part of the strut. On top of the spring is a rubber isolator, on top of that is the upper spring perch- this is NOT the strut top. On top of the upper spring perch is a domed washer that makes contact w/ the bearing in the strut top- the the strut top fits over that- the camber plate replaces the strut top- you still retain the upper rubber portion/the upper spring perch and the domed washer- this is w/ "traditional" springs- coilovers can change the mix certainly.

This thread has re-affirmed my decision to move out of autosports all together. :lol:

^ it's really not that complicated- we just like to hash ther little things out :)

It's expensive as hell is what I meant, but yah, hashing things out is important in a class like STX.

Ok... so I actually have decided on a suspension!!!!

I just bought Seb's Tein Flexes... these are the wagon specific Teins that Mako used to have on his wagon. THey are re-valved and have 10k springs front and 12k rear... along with Mako's original modified Noltec plates :D, the stock tein plates, and 6 extra 10k springs :D

I'm looking forward to the install....

But for now, I need to source some camber bolts for the rear....

are camber bolts camber bolts? Or are certain brands better than others?

I'll be looking at lowering to about 13.5" front and 14" rear, and will be aiming to get ~ -1 degree in the rear (unless people have other suggestions...) - so what type of bolt do I need to get? Or do I even need to bother?

that should be a nice setup :)

to be honest I wouldn't even bother w/ the rear- you'll be running relatively big camber #'s up front- so reducing the rear neg camber is much less of a priority- you may actually find that depending on how much camber you run up front you might want to actually INCREASE neg camber in the rear- you'll probably be seeing -1.5 to -1.7ish in the rear w/o any bolts and I think that would be a good starting point- the only exception to this would be if you see some big rear camber cross #'s (ofcourse this could be indicative of other problems if you do)

If you get the front end sticking well enough, you can end up balancing with as much as -2.5+ camber in the rear. As Big states, oem rear camber usually works at first. You might want to include a bit of toe out in the rear to help rotation. In front as much as 1/2 inch toe out with your maxed out front neg. camber race setting. Have a street setting marked on your camber plates that gives you zero to 1 mm toe-in. Whatever your camber ends up being with that street toe setting is fine. With the steering arms attached to the front of the Suby hubs, it just happens to work out nicely, ie. more camber = more toe out, etc. Oem Suby front toe settings are plus or minus 3 mm ... but you might as well go for zero to a bit of toe in for the street.

Check the H&R web site for camber bolts ... it can be a bit confusing. I think I recall that you want 14 mm camber bolts.

Mako, any suggestions on how to use the Noltec plates to accurately go back and forth between a street and auto-x setup? It'll be tough to move it myself accurately... but I think the plates will give much more adjustability than using the stock TEIN camber plates.... so I'd rather use the Noltecs because of that...

If I have to use only one setting, I was thinking of -3 or so in the front, max caster, and stock camber in the rear as well as zero toe all around... will that be ok for tire wear? A local guy with an STI is noticing extra wear due to -2.8 degrees of camber.... so wondering what all you guys are experiencing.

I think I will hold off on the rear camber bolts for a while... am thinking about getting a lifetime allignment package from Firestone (3 allignments a year for the rest of the vehicle's life span) for $140 or so... so I will be able to play and get it set up accurately if I need it.

Some people say -3 camber is fine for the street, but I had issues with the inner edge of the tires getting chewed up on the daily drive.

The easiest way to be accurate with the Noltecs is to go all the way from the outer corner to the inner corner. Align for the street with zero toe with the plates all the way to the outside of the car (but still all the way back for max caster). A quick lift, wrench the nuts loose, bang on it with a hammer (I really need a soft mallet) to all the way in, and you gain nearly 1.5 degrees of negative camber plus some toe-out.

Also, a lot of chain places that offer lifetime alignments are not thrilled about going out of stock spec and dealing with aftermarket parts. They might refuse to give you a lifetime warranty or even to do it at all.

Yes, do not do the Firestone thing unless you know for SURE ahead of time that you have one near you that has a competent tech working there.

cool, I'll probably work close with the techs to set it up.

I was recommended a Firestone here by a friend who auto-xes his Evo... he says they are really cool with it and actually look forward to alligning his car since he is racing it and it's a bit more interesting than the normal car they work on... he says that they were really cool with him, and now are even cooler and give him more than 3 per year since they know him a lot better now. But I'll talk to them first and make sure they know their stuff.

Update: Install pics from this last weekend...

Tein Flex
10k front
12k rear

I'll be using the Noltec Plates with these coilovers.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01965.jpg

Up on the lift... makes working on the car so much easier. Nice to have the use of my buddy's shop for this.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01969.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01966.jpg

Fronts:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01967.jpg

And the rears (bad pic)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01968.jpg

Noltec front plates.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01985.jpg

The rears. You gotta love the uglier color combination of pink and forest green. Hey, they ain't pretty, but they get the job done. :)
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01988.jpg

[part 2]

Now, for the ride heights. I set them at 13.5" front and 14" rear.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/FR.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/FL.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/RR.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/RL.jpg

And a few more pictures of the drop just for good measure. It ends up being about 1.5" lower than stock in the front, and about 1/8" lower than stock in the rear. I think the car looks awesome.... very happy with the elimination of the front wheel gap.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01974.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01980.jpg

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/suspension/DSC01983.jpg

The car is very flat in corners, but still rolls a lot when you shake it with the roof rails... I think this is ALL in the soft side-walled RE92 tires I have on there right now... once i put on the Falkens the ride will become MUCH stiffer and harsher. The car really feels like it wants to rotate, but in slaloms feels like its still a bit tailhappy... I didn't do much in my testing but I might be backing the rear bar down a lot...

The ride on the road is extremely bearable, which really surprised me. Over bumps you can tell the coilovers are there, as it is a tad bit bouncy, but WAY better than my friend's EVO with JIC coilovers. And this was with my damping at full stiff and his at full soft!

ALthough, after trying full soft, I notice that it is actually quite a bit more uncomfortable because the car bounces more... but I can deal with that.


Car will be alligned tomorrow morning - NOT at firestone.... instead, at a good local shop my friend recommended. They have good techs and take the time to do it right... so we'll see what kinds of numbers I can get!

MUCH thanks to Seb for this setup, and especially Mako for helping me a lot with advice and setup info. He had nothing to do with the deal but still spent a lot of time answering my noob questions... thanks!

Got the allignment...

Here are the numbers:

Front Right
Camber: -2.8*
Caster: +4.9*
Toe: -0.03*

Front Left
Camber: -2.7*
Caster: +5.4*
Toe: -0.07*

Rear Right
Camber: -1.2*
Toe: -0.04*

Rear Left
Camber: -1.2*
Toe: 0.00*

Long story... without camber bolts I was getting -1 on the right rear and -0.3 in the left rear. THat sucked... but they had some camber bolts that would work... so I had them put them in and adjust the camber in the rear so that it would match.

Unfortunately, they wanted to charge me an hour of labor for putting in the bolts (a <10 minute job). I argued with them (and the tech did too!) so they reduced the labor a bit, but I still had to shell out $45 for that... :(

But I don't feel too bad about it... we had the car on the rack for about 3 hours getting it just right... he also fixed my steering which wasn't very straight due to the steering rack bushing install... so that was cool. I am pretty happy with the numbers... a bit disappointed in the caster.... but it was weird... the rack was giving all kinds of strange #s for caster... at times it was saying 6* or 7*. I am actually inclined to believe that it is indeed closer to 6 or 7 degrees.

I think it will work out pretty good... basically zero toe all the way around and one setting for street and race. I didnt think I was getting enough negative camber to warrant two settings. It was actually closer to -2.6 and -2.7. Like I said the rack was pretty touchy and the slightest bump could throw it off a bit.

Opinions?

Good start.

Did the $45 include the camber bolts? If so ... good deal.

Is minus toe = to toe out?

Because of the design of the Noltecs, three bolts/nuts locating the camber plate plus holding down the adjusting plate ... make sure that when you have the three nuts loosened ... have the plate pushed all the way in and back before tightening the nuts. (If you want the camber and caster maxed out.) With those actual modified Notlecs I definitely had +6 Caster, measuring very carefully with the digital SmartCamber tool and their Caster template.

Did you go to AJ? I was wondering about the caster numbers when I was there as well. At one point I went back and they were at 7 and I was very happy, but on the printout they were at 5ish, but I know it has to be more. I just am not sure how caster is measured. Anyways, looks good, see you racing sunday.

Using this template you draw out these lines on the floor ... measure Camber at the two 20 degree angles and then either subtract or add the number depending if they are positive or negative numbers = Caster.

http://images110.fotki.com/v563/photos/4/43793/836092/CasterTemplate-vi.jpg

Is there anyway to get the number without turning the wheel? I don't think the tech ever got in the car and turned the wheel.

The method I showed is the low tech, mechanical, traditional way ... I'm sure if they were using lasers, etc. they might have another method?

With the car jacked up, wheel off, car level, you could perhaps just put a handy clinometer up against the strut. :-)

Wait, I'm confused. You're running Tein Flexes with 10/12 springs coupled with 27 mm adj. Whiteline swaybars?

Aaron - yeah, I went to AJs.

The camber bolts were $39, and then $40 in labor... that really pissed me off... but I guess there was nothing I could do about it... I needed the car alligned and didn't want to go get bolts and pay for another allignment :(

The caster #s are certainly weird. The allignment rack they are using is one of the newest, most state-of-the-art racks on the market. It mounts these checker-board plates to each rim and then there are 4 lasers that reflect off the plates as the car rolls back and forth - I guess calculating all the angles. To me it seems to not be super-accurate, as each plate has a bubble gauge on it to be leveled - and that is only as accurate as one can judge a bubble gauge... and if the plate isn't mounted perfectly it seems like all resulting measurements will be innaccurate...

Mako - I'll have to try the method you mentioned... I suppose the wheel is along the x-axis, correct? I'm a bit confused with the orientation of the 3 axes with relation to the tire.... plus I don't have a camber gauge or anything, so not even sure if I can measure it very accurately.

As for measuring the caster directly with the car jacked up and tire off - pretty sure that won't work... doesn't the caster change once you load the suspension? At least thats what the allignment rack showed.... of course it was spitting out all kinds of weird numbers so who knows.

Impreza01 - yes that is my setup... why is that confusing?

EDIT: Oh yeah, the negative toe I believe is toe in... it's so close to zero though that I doubt I would notice anything from where its at to changing it to be perfectly zero. Actually, I think the front #s might be a bit better (closer to zero) but it didn't show up on the printout because we reset the software a few times.

Oh, and the plates were slammed all the way in... and we were working only on the front camber bolts to adjust camber... when one side was 2.6 and the other was 2.9, we ended up just adjusting the side with more camber at the tops (plates) to match the other side.... I wanted both sides to be even. In reality, they are somewhere between 2.6 and 2.8... still at max caster though.

With 10/12 springs, you really don't need such large swaybars. With such a high resistance to suspension compression, you're forcing your tires to work much harder. Essentially, your tires are becoming your "springs".

well the big sway bars were there before the big spring rates. I feel inclined to keep the big front bar for sure, and maybe soften up the rear. But I'll have to see how it handles at an auto-x and play with it. I have plenty to play with now :)

Wow! I just read all 10 pages of this thread and I'm very impressed by the amount of suspension setup info you guys have collected here. Although I don't have a WRX wagon, I should be able to apply alot of what I've read here to setting up my RS for STS. If only people put this much time and effort into setting up their GC body Imprezas...

Keep up the good work!

Garrison

Well the first auto-x on the new setup was today.

Overall, the results weren't too great :(

THe car rotates great! Well, maybe a bit too much. I was quite frankly scared to drive it... the course was fast for what we usually do in that lot - it was all second gear, but had a few annoyingly tight corners that would have been much better suited for 1st gear... well heck I'll just post the map. Keep in mind that the lot is about 3 acres (pretty tiny) and is usually high first gear and low second gear for speed.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e127/dark_vandal/untitled.jpg

The car was rotating pretty well in the sweepers.. especially around the big loop after the first slalom (the one that goes all the way across the lot). Coming down to the sharp left (turning to avoid the "damaged pavement") the car understeered pretty bad in that > 90* turn. Coming back through that same turn going the opposite direction I was getting a lot of oversteer. The slalom was especially scary... the car felt like it was going to spin out at any time, especially on the way back (which is slightly downhill). I almost did spin on my first run, but saved it. The whole last part of the course sucked, with a difficult downshift into first for most of my runs and a lot of understeer.

I started with my bars maxed out (29/29). It felt like the car was skipping a bit in the rear, so I turned the damping down 3 clicks all the way around - also hoping to get the car to understeer less. The car felt a bit more controlled with less damping, but on the last run, and in a last ditch effort to post a better time, i disconnected my rear bar alltogether, which allowed me to really push it fast through the slalom without worrying about the car getting unsettled. That last run was indeed the fastest, about 0.6 seconds faster than my first and fastest run. However, with the absence of the rear bar, I think I pushed even worse in the final section of course.

I got the car sideways more than I should have at least 4 times today. One time was really bad and got me way off course, in what was at the time a very quick run. I would say I only had one, maybe two runs, where the car did not oversteer too much.

Bottom line was that I lost STX for the first time this season... finishing 0.9 seconds behind my friend's '94 Legacy wagon. He was posting great times and impressing people quite a bit. I ended up 22/57 in PAX... so I'm pretty bummed. I think its just gonna take time to get it right, but the problem is that the next auto-x is in a weird venue (several very narrow lots in the mountains of northern NM) and are more slalom intensive than they are sweeper intensive, so not sure how to tune my car for it. I'm not sure what I should do in the meantime... I don't know how I can test and tune the suspension without actually racing... I suppose I could go play in empty lots but I don't want to get in trouble with people and/or cops... so I'm really at a loss of what to do next... hopefully I can get it together and stay ahead in STX (currently leading by 7 points still).

Initially I am thinking of keeping the front bar at full stiff and the rear bar at full soft (25). I think that for this course it would have worked perfectly... I just didnt have enough tme to switch it between runs 4 and 5.

I'd like to hear the sway bar setups people are using with stiff rates (10k front and 12k rear)... I think the car was better with no rear bar but I got a lot of understeer as a result (I think anyways) - or maybe I am just pushing it too hard on entry to tight corners. I also noticed that I wasn't getting on the brakes very hard today... maybe I was just having an off-day...

One thing to keep in mind - my region has half of its races in small lots (not much more than 40-50 mph) and the other half in a large 15 acre lot that is almost always a 2nd gear course. So I think I might need a bit more rotation than setups for larger lots... but I could be way off base. I like the way the car feels when it just has a smidge of rotation/oversteer, but I get scared once it goes too far and I usually slow down in order to correct it. It was definitely frustrating out there today... hopefully I can sort it out.

OK, you might have heard this before and you may not want to listen to it but my suggestion is going to go back to the basics. Stop f'ing with the car, you have absolutely no idea if you are getting better or if the car is at this point.

Do a basic setup on the car, get the front where it has decent grip, tweak the rear where it isn't going to feel out of control to you and then don't touch it, for 3 or 4 events at least, to see how YOU (the single biggest variable in the car period point blank) react. In the scheme of things I'm a relative newbie, I've probably only taken 2000 autocross runs and I still KNOW that the biggest variable without a doubt is me.

i know it bumps you up a class but look into an antilift kit. whiteline makes a good one and i would suggest the race. im using the sport now, but i could go for even less lift. it keeps the front end down in the corners, so on those tight 90 degree turns it doesnt lift as much, causing you to lose grip... then that allows you to soften up the rear so it wont slide as much in the high speed turns

i know it bumps you up a class but look into an antilift kit. whiteline makes a good one and i would suggest the race. im using the sport now, but i could go for even less lift. it keeps the front end down in the corners, so on those tight 90 degree turns it doesnt lift as much, causing you to lose grip... then that allows you to soften up the rear so it wont slide as much in the high speed turnsI'm going to hazard a guess that Mr Durmiente is not as worried about making his car handle perfectly, as he is worried about being reasonably competitive in STX without spending a trillion dollars going into a Prepared class.

an ALK is like $150 at most... it was just a suggestion. other thing you can do is run the ALK and not tell anyone. then you dont bump up a class :D

an ALK is like $150 at most... it was just a suggestion. other thing you can do is run the ALK and not tell anyone. then you dont bump up a class :D

Yeah, and be an ass for doing that. Even if you don't win doing that, you're not making it fair for everyone else in the class.

I started with my bars maxed out (29/29).

If you're running 12k in the rear, seems like you might not need as much rear bar. Perhaps you could try a softer setting, if available, and see how that goes. I envy your rates though. My car could use something like that, if only the driver were half-way decent. ;)

I'm glad they are on the car and you got to try them. I would try to get a little more camber in the rear. Double check the rear toe too.

yeah, no way I will be getting an anti-lift kit... the point of this thread is to keep the car in STX :) I also think I have a great chance at top PAX in my region in the next year and a half and it is my ultimate goal.

I also will not be "not telling anyone" about mods... I don't roll like that. The car will be legal so I win fairly. Anti-lift kits give caster, I already have a lot via legal mods. Right now the idea is to keep all the same hardware on the car and just tune it... everything is adjustable right now, so I gotta take advantage of that. The car is FUN to drive... just needs to keep a bit more grip in the rear and I think it will be perfect.

I think I will be trying for sure the rear bar at 25mm, front bar at 29. That is what I formerly used at the track with stock shocks/springs... was a very nice setup.

The trick is to get the car to be neutral in fast corners but rotate in slow corners... right now it rotates in fast corners and pushes in slow corners (sometimes).

So - if anyone has 10k/12k, please chime in on your allignment settings and especially the sway bars you use. I know Mako and the west coast guys are going back to a stock front bar and a medium-sized rear bar, but I've heard from a LOT of people that the big front bar is the way to go... still others are running something like 22f/24r, and others say that the guys with big rates also have big bars (27/27) like me.

My problem is killing low speed understeer without making the car rotate too much at higher speed.

I am thinking that more rear camber would be nice... how does rear toe change with camber in the rear? can I change it myself (using the bolt) to avoid getting excessive toe?

Of course I dont want to mess with it much... I was trying not to yesterday,o but was getting frustrated and was hoping to strike some luck and find that sweet spot.

So - if anyone has 10k/12k, please chime in on your allignment settings and especially the sway bars you use. I know Mako and the west coast guys are going back to a stock front bar and a medium-sized rear bar, but I've heard from a LOT of people that the big front bar is the way to go... still others are running something like 22f/24r, and others say that the guys with big rates also have big bars (27/27) like me.


Are you polling for votes, or do you want to know what the fast drivers are using?

SS says running too much rear camber in proportion to the front isnt good. suggest 1-1.5 degree more in the front than rear. for race setups i think he said 2.7-3.5 degrees front and 1.5-1.7 rear if you can get it.


i didnt have time to read through 10 pages, but i assume youve already played around with tire pressures? im up to 2.5lbs higher pressures in the rear

PossumK - I am basically asking what people with 10k/12k have tried in terms of bars and what they like about each setup they've tried. Also wouldn't mind to hear what several different fast people are using - because I know some setups work for some people but dont work for others.

LDadrenaline- I have -2.7 front, -1.2 rear... maybe I should have more rear camber to gain some more grip? I can get close to -3 in the rear with the bolts, at least we got that on the left side... had a hard time getting it as low as -1.2! But like I asked... how does rear toe change with rear camber?

I have played with pressures, but didn't mess with them much on Sunday... I previously with my old sway bar only setup (27-27) that 44 front and 38 rear provided the most rotation and worked really well for the car. I used that on Sunday as well, but didnt play with it because i had too much other stuff to worry about and I didnt want to change that many things at once.

Honestly, leave the car as it sits and get some more seat time with the new suspension. It took me ~4 events to get used to my coilovers.

I think I might go with the rear bar set at full soft though... honestly, it still is scary in slaloms... I know it will spin if I am at full stiff... and I can't push it as hard as I want to.

Or, I could just use the same settings I used to adhere to:

Rear bar:
25mm for track
27mm for normal auto-xes
29mm for tight 1st gear courses

This was one of the fastest tracks we have had... if I was on my old setup I would have used the rear bar at 27mm... for some reason I thought the problem was with the poor stock shocks... guess that is just how a big rear bar makes the car feel.

Some pictures for eye candy. Seems like i have more roll then you'd think. The car actually moves a lot when you jump on it, to many people's surprise....

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/comgabe/HPIM2114.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/comgabe/HPIM2182.jpg

and a video (not of me) of an in car ride along with my friend in his focus, to give you a better idea of the size of the course.

http://s167.photobucket.com/albums/u152/comgabe/?action=view&current=HPIM2189.flv