I really like the WRX, but when I saw the pics of the B4s at the Japan auto shows I was amazed. Like the BMW 4wd they have a certain touch of elegance. Soo cool. So my questions is, now that the WRX has made it to our shores are there any plans for Subaru to bring over the B4?

noone seems to know

i've heard people say that in two or three model years they will be here... but noone knows, I think, except SOA themselves :)

How big is the market for a $45G Subaru wagon? That's not meant to be flamey, just realistic. The B4 is like the STi WRX...and IF Subaru brings the STi over, it will be in very low volumes...the B4 wouldn't be any more of a mass-market (relative to Subaru sales) than the STi. $45 Large buys a wide range of nice cars much more familiar to the general public. It IS about the money...

Time to get a second, and third, and forth job.

I was thinking more along the lines of man-whoring :lol:

To whom it may concern, especially SOA:

Look at it this way. I would say Subaru is the Saab of Japan. They built their reputation on practical, dependable, quirky cars that ran forever and did well in rough climates. Saab also has a long rally history.

Fast forward. Saab made its cars more mainstream, luxurious, and sporty. They added content and raised prices. You may not like them, but nobody can say the 9-3 Viggen and the 9-5 Aero are boring cars. They haul and handle (torque steer aside).

Subaru is in the same process right now. The current Legacy platform put Subaru much closer to the standard-bearing Accord and Camry platforms, but maintained its individuality with the unique drivetrain/awd, and the Outback variations. The Forester took advantage of market conditions and hit a pretty good home run. Now the WRX is killing it in the sport compact class - the hottest enthusiast segment right now by far. So where am I going with this?

Subaru should continue this course by:

- Importing the STi. Ride the current wave of interest and make this the "Viper" that gets people into the showroom. Sell them an RS or OBSport if they can't spring for a Turbo. Keep the advertising going.

- Keeping the 7-passenger Forester evolutionary rather than some wacky design exercise. And put the H6 in it for under $30k.

- Simplifying the Legacy class, especially the Outbacks. The L and GT should use the EJ22 and the GT Limited should get the H6 for now. The Outback should be EJ22, the Limited should be the LLBean H6, and the VDC should stay the same. And they should do a more conservative paint job a la Volvo Cross Country on the VDC. Audi and Volvo drivers want something that looks like it cost more than $22k. Fix the gearing so the H6 can fly off the line a little faster.

- Use some GM money and do some more advertising. Keep Hogan in the Outback ads, show the US Rally racing success of the WRX, and maybe some endurance stuff (Alcan?) with the Forester, as well as the current "chickmobile" ads they've been running. And fire a few Legacy ads at the Accord market, too (more powerful engine, AWD, etc. etc.).

- Keep the momentum going, building on the performance, safety, and luxury image, and bring in some truly fast Legacy models. Start with a WRX engine, tuned like the VW 1.8 for low end torque. Keep the standard equipment reasonable and sell it for a little more than the WRX. That will take a chunk of Audi, BMW, Saab, Volvo business. Build on that success and bring about 1000 RSK Sedan and 1000 GT-B Wagon twin-turbo models over for 2003 or 2004. Subaru Australia shows a price of about $55kAUD, or $29kUSD for the B4RSK. America would pay $35 or $40 for such a car. They pay that much for the Audi S4, and the RSK will absolutely destroy that car.

Thank you for your time.

Fuzz

ps. Exhibit A: (once the market knows what a beast this car truly is, BMW and Audi customers WILL buy it)

http://www.subaru.com.au/libertyb4/images/800x600_01.jpg

superb post Fuzz..

The only rumor I've heard that seems solid is a Legacy GT sporting the EJ20T... likely as a MY03 car... doesn't seem like Subaru wants to "fix" their H6 to make it sportier. I guess since it was built as an automatic platform, the development costs to convert it to a manual are prohibitive (the H6 is only sold in the US IIRC).

well, I thought it was a pretty naive and presumptuous post. Is that a picture of the new Impala? How, exactly, is a WRX with an STi badge going to "get people into the showroom?" How can you sell the legacy as a more powerful accord when it is less powerful? I don't know what to say about the forester, but eventually subaru is going to have competition for the lesbian market, and the forester will lose its momentum.
It seems to me that subaru has found their niche, and it would be foolish to leave it for a crowded upmarket. Maybe FHI can launch a luxury division? I probably wouldn't pay 40G's for a Subaru Legacy B4, but a Pleione SB4 - that sounds about right ;)

I might also have thought my post naive and presumptuous if I hadn't sold Subarus in Vermont for two years, home slice.

Watching countless customers leave to buy Audis and Volvos and other more serious entry-luxury cars, now including the Passat, I longed for Subaru to "get serious" too. They answered my prayers with standard dual-sunroofs that were only slightly less noisy than the previous generation, a new shade of tan on the bottom of the Outbacks and a halfway-there six-cylinder that could only be had with overstuffed package cars (LL Bean and VDC). The magazines have been saying for years that Subarus handle well but lack power. DUH! They never should have dropped the Legacy Turbo. The Outback saved Subaru from extinction, but now they're stuck in that niche you seem to love so much. It's a great car for the snow belt, and a great alternative to SUV's. But the rest of the country that lives in places where Mustangs can drive year-round without a tire change only cares about AWD if it means they can go faster/safer in the rain.

Let's look at another "niche" company. Volkswagen sold quirky, cheap cars by the shipfull for decades. They approached luxury here and there with the Quantum, which was a bastardized Audi. They offered either a "sensible econocar" (Golf, Jetta, Fox), or a quirky practical (Quantum) cars with the occasional hot rod (GTI/GLI) thrown in.

With the Golf and Jetta III, and a very aggressive lease program in the early '90's, Volkswagen created a whole new generation of loyal customers. Many of them returned for newer models and the larger Passat. Sales increased and the company was doing well. They hit a grand slam with the redesign of the Passat. Consumer Reports and the car mags all called it the best family sedan. Cash poured in and they added more content to the whole line. They raised prices because they had interesting, quality product that was worthy of the charge.

Now they've refreshed the Passat and it looks like a $35,000 car. With the right options on a V6/4motion wagon, it probably is. And the sky is the limit. Who would have thought even ten years ago that Volkswagen would be selling a $75,000 12-cylinder luxury car (D1), and a $50,000 lux-sport sedan (Passat W8) to compete with BMW's finest? Nobody. They refined their product, made some smart business moves, and used their newfound cash reserves to further refine product and improve their position in the market. Now they can sell premium vehicles with a straight face.

Now that the General and Fuji have tied the knot, Subaru should make every effort to emulate the respective successes of Saab (a GM cousin) and Volkswagen by truly improving quality (starting with carpeting and seat fabric), and adding strong content. They are good here - ABS, CD players, A/C, etc. - but could improve with details like sun visors that put the vanity mirror on the RIGHT or on BOTH instead of the LEFT (Exhibit B: my in-laws' L Wagon). Stuff like that is just unacceptable.

If we want to see ferocious JDM cars in the 'States, then Subaru needs to sell a whole lot more L's and Foresters to a whole lot more yuppies and soccer moms. The way to do that is to broaden the line beyond Paul F-ing Hogan and tear into some middle American meat and potatoes. The way to do THAT is to out-Passat and out-Accord the others.

To address a couple of your specific concerns:
2002 Legacy L Sedan MSRP: $19,820 w/2.5L H4 165hp
2002 Accord EX MSRP: $21,940 w/2.3L I4 150hp

On the Honda you get variable valve timing, a moonroof, alloys, side airbags, and a few other content items over the Legacy. You skip AWD and 15hp. For the "more powerful" Accord you reference, you need to spend $23,040 on the LX V6. With that car you get about the same feature list as the Legacy L, plus traction control and a power seat, minus AWD.

The Accord dominates because it just drips with quality - every switch and button and lever and surface. Not opulence like an A6 or a GS300, just sublime excellence. Subaru is a solid two notches behind Honda in this area. Their switches and controls are very good, but not top-shelf. Economics of scale certainly play a part. The way to win is to increase your scale by selling more cars. Take the GM money, stay far away from AC/Delco, and find good stuff.

If they aren't going to make an H6 or a light-pressure EJ20T "L" to compete with cars like the Accord/Camry/Passat/etc. V6, or even the 180hp Passat turbo 4 ($22,300), they're shooting themselves in the foot.

On a totally separate note, they should put HID's on all the premium cars (Bean, VDC, Limited, etc). No car over $30,000 should be without them now. Plus, that would give those of us who'd prefer to drive a turboed 2000 Brighton wagon something to buy from the junkyard. :)

I'm now rambling. I'll end this by saying that Subaru has superb engineering. They need to bring their styling and interiors up just a little, and broaden their market penetration beyond the snow belt by making more mainstream cars that can better the segment leaders. By selling more "average" cars, they can afford to bring in a few rocketsleds as image leaders.

Fuzz

if that ever comes out here im going to make my dad check it out. hes into the camry. im sure this would blow his "wow this is some v6!" away! ;)

Well i'm sure it won't be coming over. It would be compete with Mitz Eclipes.

Umm hard sector to jump in if you ask me.

Ummm, wheels, how would the Legacy turbo compete with the Mitsu Eclipse? 4-door vs. 2-door, ~$28K vs ~$22K? How are those competing models? Plus the target buyer is way different. Legacy = 30 something family car, Eclipse = 20 something sport compact. I don't see any competition there. Maybe I am missing something?

Originally posted by dsmawd
Ummm, wheels, how would the Legacy turbo compete with the Mitsu Eclipse? 4-door vs. 2-door, ~$28K vs ~$22K? How are those competing models? Plus the target buyer is way different. Legacy = 30 something family car, Eclipse = 20 something sport compact. I don't see any competition there. Maybe I am missing something?

I don`t think its a 30 something family car nor do I think its going to be anywhere below 30k. And as for the market it will be entering its like the S4 range and maybe not quite the Eclipse but alot of people will judge between the two. The WRX just got here there is noway we will get a B4 in this model shape.

I don't understand why SOA is scared to unleesh a proper Legacy on the United States.

There target for the Legacy should be the mid to late 20s into mid 30s. THe outback fills the spot of Luxury Cruiser that the 35-50 is looking for.

I totally agree that Subaru is missing a vital part of the US consumer market. I beleive the Legacy should be refocused and marketed towards the 25-35 year old that is making decent money who wants a perfect blend of practicality, safety, and muscle. BMW probably has the biggest market share for this age-group. BMW 3 series are about as common as Honda's among 25-35 year olds that are settled in a decent job. Audi has stolen a little bit of the spotlight for its S4. Lets look at the S4. It has plenty of power a stock suspension and drive train that speaks for itself. Its a little over the top with its luxury features. Perhaps it biggest downfall are its looks. Nothing about the car says sporty/aggressive/powerful. Take a look at the M3. That thing is screaming testosterone.

Funny how the M3 is success at almost $50k. However I would love to see a B4 RSK right next to an M3. Subaru would have a hot product if they used the exact styling characteristics of the current B4 (Blitzen-RSK) models, spent a little more effort on qaultity/but not over the top accessories, and put a power plant in that will turn the heads of 25-35 year old Americans. Honestly I don't think the 2.0 turbo will do it. I think people would come to the Subaru dealership in droves if SOA used the Supercharged EJ25 that was in the STX prototype.

Ultimately I would love to see SOA do something over the top with the Legacy. For intance a twin turboed H6 that makes 320-350 hp stock. I doubt that will ever happen.

About the H6 beeing made to work with a 5spd. I know of someone who took a 5spd tranny from a turbo Legacy and made it work with his SVX. Subaru has what they need at there disposal without re-inventing the wheel. They just need a better understanding of the American Market.

Brad

I was being conservative with the ~$28K range, and yes, the could badge a Legacy as the B4 with the WRX EJ20T (no overhead for emissions testing, etc.) and sell them for less than $30K and still make a profit. S4s are closer to $40K than $30K, and I still don't see how any of these cars would compete with the Eclipse for market share. The WRX, maybe, but not ANY Legacy. The Eclipse in my mind is now a direct competitor with the Accord V6, Dodge Stratus R/T, etc. Much more of a grand touring coupe than a sport compact, even. Now if you wanted to compare the SVX with the Eclipse, now you're talking.

Here's how they get their sales in the UK:-
Impreza GC8 turbo was deemed performance car of the decade by one of the magazines, and rallying is very popular so that has sold imprezas. It offered stonking performance for not much money and until a couple of years ago it was a real wolf in sheep's clothing. Now it suffers from high insurance premiums (it's starting to be stolen to order for use as a getaway car) and the new shape is deemed to have lost some of the edge the GC8 had.
Legacys were sold on the 'get you out of the muddy field and snow' theory to farmers and others who lived in the country, and the H6 was voted tow car of the year by the caravan club.
The forester suffered from import restrictions, but is sold to the legacy set and the turbo version is the new wolf in sheeps clothing (and rightly so, it's damn quick!) It suffers from anonyminity and badge snobbery though, you see lots more volvo XC and audi allroads driven by people, yet they don't have good all wheel drive, and they cost £10k more.
They all suffer from being thirstier than their competitors which is a real downer where gas is ~80p per litre.
Quite a few people buy japanese imports as they're right hand drive and the B4 RSK/Blitzen is supposed to be the car that the impreza used to be (stealth).
just my input!

there's no way they'd put a B4 badge on a Legacy by only putting a EJ20T in it... it should keep the GT badging when it reaches the market.

Sorry for the long and rambling posts, but I love these cars and want to see the company continue on its current successful course. Here are some follow-up points:

They ABSOLUTELY SHOULD sell an EJ20t Legacy GT. It will be very competitive with the Passat / A4 platform.

They should give it a year or two in the market and then IMPORT (not build in Indiana) 500-1000 B4's and GT-B's, to be sold as an S4 alternative. By then, the S4 will be faster and more expensive. Perfect prey. I agree with MY99GT in that Subaru should concentrate on raising quality and keeping accessories realistic. Audi and BMW should be the benchmark for integrity and quality. We don't need burled wood trim and leather door panels. But decent carpeting and seat fabric is a good place to start. The junk they use now is inexcusable (I've been in hundreds, so I know). The WRX interior is a little bitty step in the right direction.

GM is famous for skimping on details to save bucks. That is why I'm terrified for Subaru's future. If they can keep the monster at bay by sharing some AWD technology in exchange for a cash reservoir, I'll be happy. I could even stand it if they borrowed some hardware for smaller chevy cars. But if they stick a Subaru badge on a Cavalier, I will vomit.

Fuzz over and out on this one...

Yeah, I mean, get the engine that is already us aprooved into a current production model. How hard could it be?

GM and Ford show their inventions "Like the camaro with a 454, or the Mustang with the supercharged 351, which became the Cobra R" all the time. Why won't SOA at least build a GT with the WRX engine "for testing".

I'm one that would drop the WRX for a GT turbo Legacy.

Leo

I seem to remember SOA having some concerns about the WRX and the Legacy GT/B4 line competing too much.

Also, unlikely the B4 would be built at SIA (IN), as volume too small, so why burn up import quota on the B4 when the Impreza line is selling like hotcakes (hence Forester cutback).

I think the B4 would splinter their US performance line too much, at this "early" stage (compared to ROW).

The B4 that Australia gets (RSK?) has an EJ20 twin turbo, so that is a "new engine" that would need certifying in the US.

Of course, FHI makes the decisions anyway, not SOA, so who knows.

Glenn

PS here's a pic I took of the latest B4 interior.

I have to agree with Leonardo. If B4 comes here I will get 4 more jobs, drop the WRX and pick up on of those sweet rides.

Guys, I would settle for a Turbo Legacy! Call it GT Turbo for all I care!

Don't get me wrong here, I would love the B4, but if SOA starts with a EJ20t motor, than so be it as long as it looks like the B4, then they can certify the tt engine and say they heard us and brought it over.

Leo

Id also get a Legacy in the current B4 "platform" with a turbo, single or double (prefer single) and badge it whatever they wish. But Id get it.
Can we start a poll to send to Subaru?
Id prefer an Legacy-Turbo over an STi for cryin out loud.
xxx-owner: "dude I got spanked by a friggin' Subaru family sedan! W. Tango Foxtrot????"

ATTENTION Subaru, PLEASE bring this over!


in this color, exactly what I will buy!:D

O M G :eek:

That car says bmw 3 series watch out. It's a sure win if it has the right amenities and what not.

if B4 comes here, i will buy that rather than getting a WRX STi!!! wow, so beautiful~~:D

Sweet!

Subaru really needs to stop screwing us. We waited so long for the WRX, but its bug-eyes are disappointing. From the current trend, a hot Legacy won't be introduced until a redesign, which will be a while...:( (04'-06') :( :( :(

IMHO the blue one I posted looks better than the red one, which looks too chubby and not mean enough (WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON WITH SUBARUS DESIGN DPT ?????)
If we dont get a good looking B4 Legacy Ill be forced to import one myself, I dont care what it takes that will be my next car.
now, what was the next lotto worth? :D

Kaos,

If we dont get a good looking B4 Legacy Ill be forced to import one myself, I dont care what it takes that will be my next car. I realize you were probably kidding, but if not: Take a deep breath and think about the cost and complexity of importing a non-federalized sequential twin-turbo engine/drivetrain, never mind a complete JDM vehicle. Go buy a Legacy GT and get a Vishnu (www.vishnuperformance.com) or Cobb Tuning (www.cobbtuning.com) engine job and a high-end suspension kit. For about 5-10 grand over the price of the base car you could have a Legacy capable of eating M5's for lunch.

Fuzz