8cm Green with 2.4" inlet, internally gated
APS FMIC
Helix catless DP
3" catback
Helix 850cc injectors
Hydra EMS
California 91 Octane

Here's the dyno:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/adambomb925/91_octane.png

A stock STI puts down 215-220whp and most tuned stage 2 sti's do about 275whp.

This car ran 12.5 @ 115mph. The owner couldn't get much traction off the line and ended up running this with a 1.9 60'. The 115mph trap tells the real story though ;).

This is actually the first time I've been really impressed with the performance of a Green on pump gas.

Thanks
-- Ed

got a plot of boost & afr?

my guess is that you are planning to go with MORE power, otherwise, i don't see why you need a Hydra (at least that's something i want but can't afford):devil:...and for sure you can use higher redline

nice..

got a plot of boost & afr?

Boost peaks at 22psi around 3600-3700RPM in 4th and tapers off to about 18psi by redline.

AFR is around 10.5:1 once full boost comes in. (mmm.. cali 91 octane)

Thanks
-- Ed

my guess is that you are planning to go with MORE power, otherwise, i don't see why you need a Hydra (at least that's something i want but can't afford):devil:...and for sure you can use higher redline

The customer just got a good deal on a used hydra, so he went ahead with it. He had a bad experience with a big MAF with another tuner previously so he was happy to get rid of the MAF. I do agree with you, however, that this setup does not really necesitate a Hydra but it did work out very well on this particular car.

He's not planning on upgrading the turbo any time soon, but we will be doing a C16 tune to see what she'll do on some real gas. The redline is 7k RPM, although the dyno plot does not go quite that high.

Thanks
-- Ed

high 11's for sure... Thats pretty amazing to do on 91 octane.

high 11's for sure... Thats pretty amazing to do on 91 octane.

That trap deffinately has a high 11 second pass in it... and all with just a measly 330whp :lol:


The customer isn't horribly into drag racing so he was just happy to see the 115mph trap and to finally break into the 12's. The car is on some very stiff suspension and is quite low which I think contributes to his lack of traction off the line. I think 11's will have to wait untill the C16 tune for this particular car.

Thanks
-- Ed

That trap deffinately has a high 11 second pass in it... and all with just a measly 330whp :lol:


The customer isn't horribly into drag racing so he was just happy to see the 115mph trap and to finally break into the 12's. The car is on some very stiff suspension and is quite low which I think contributes to his lack of traction off the line. I think 11's will have to wait untill the C16 tune for this particular car.

Thanks
-- Ed

Yea because I am very close to breaking 11's with a 113 mph trap. I have very stiff suspension (KW coils) and stock slipping clutch and ran a 12.2@113. 115mph trap is very impressive, im sure a 11.7 could be had with some good driving. I'm really curious to see what would happen with some c16.

Might I add this was roadtuned.

Given that combination it speaks volumes to the effectiveness of roadtuning, and the efficacy of the stock inlet and IWG. I'd say this is pretty high up there on the list of most impressive results we've seen on CA 91 and a stock location turbo. The trap speed with lots of room left says it all.

Is this on a WRX? What kind of dyno was that?

Is this on a WRX? What kind of dyno was that?

it has to be on a 2.5

this is an 04 STI. The car was road tuned and that dyno plot is from road dyno software I wrote some time ago.

Thanks
-- Ed

Given that combination it speaks volumes to the effectiveness of roadtuning, and the efficacy of the stock inlet and IWG.

I believe this car has an APS inlet pipe actually but the stock sized 2.4" inlet is retained.

Thanks
-- Ed

Yes Ed is the man! The car performs beautifully part throttle or WOT. My suspension is set up for road race, running Apex-i N1 coilovers 10k/8k and Cobb sways with Kartboy rear endlinks. I'm very pleased with the outcome and my times. Traction is sketchy with a bit of wheel hop and cold temps not helping either.

I absolutely love the 8cm Green, flows like crazy I must say. :D

I absolutely love the 8cm Green, flows like crazy I must say. :D

for sure... the 8cm2 green is very close to 30r performance. great turbo

For comparison:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994154

nice job tuning, ed.

For comparison:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=994154

Very nice run with a very similar setup. Kinda interesting to see the same trap speed on 94 octane as this car ran on 91. What kind of boost and a/f is your tune running? Also what power did your car put down and on what dyno?

Thanks
-- Ed

Very nice run with a very similar setup. Kinda interesting to see the same trap speed on 94 octane as this car ran on 91. What kind of boost and a/f is your tune running? Also what power did your car put down and on what dyno?

Thanks
-- Ed

Whoa... 115mph on 91? Awesome :) 8cm FTW!!:banana: :banana:

Whoa... 115mph on 91? Awesome :) 8cm FTW!!:banana: :banana:


Yea... this turbo really impressed me. The power is amazing for 91 octane and a stock location turbo. The response is also pretty damn nice with full boost by 3600RPM and torque peak at 4k. Amazing what a propperly sized housing can do ;).

-- Ed

sound real nice. looks like that is what I'll eventually want to do.

Yea... this turbo really impressed me. The power is amazing for 91 octane and a stock location turbo. The response is also pretty damn nice with full boost by 3600RPM and torque peak at 4k. Amazing what a propperly sized housing can do ;).

-- Ed

properly sized housing indeed :D

this is an 04 STI. The car was road tuned and that dyno plot is from road dyno software I wrote some time ago.

Thanks
-- Ed

Now that's impressive.

Cant wait to come home and get a tune ED!

Cant wait to come home and get a tune ED!

Me too. ;)

-Mike-

Very nice run with a very similar setup. Kinda interesting to see the same trap speed on 94 octane as this car ran on 91. What kind of boost and a/f is your tune running? Also what power did your car put down and on what dyno?

Thanks
-- Ed
It trapped 115.8 on 94oct, and put down a hair under 330whp on a conservative Mustang dyno. Boost was ~22psi, tapering down to ~20psi near redline. AFR was about 11:1.

Once your 60ft goes down, I think your trap should, too (slightly)...

I wish I had an 8cm housing when I had my Green. :)

It trapped 115.8 on 94oct, and put down a hair under 330whp on a conservative Mustang dyno. Boost was ~22psi, tapering down to ~20psi near redline. AFR was about 11:1.

Once your 60ft goes down, I think your trap should, too (slightly)...

I wish I had an 8cm housing when I had my Green. :)


Ah... so your Green was 7cm? That helps explain why it was making the same power on 94 as this 8cm green is on 91.

I'd also like to note the extremely close correlation between your 330whp peak power figure from a low reading Mustang and this car's 330whp from my road dyno software. Peak numbers are within 1whp and what do ya know... trap speeds are identical as well. Who says you can't compare numbers from two different dynos? :D

BTW, I hope this was made clear but this is not my car but rather a customer's car.

Thanks
-- Ed

Ed,

Nice job tuning the Element Hydra and I'm glad your customer is happy!

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Ed,

Nice job tuning the Element Hydra and I'm glad your customer is happy!

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Thanks Phil,

The Hydra deffinately has some quirks and takes some getting used to but overall its a good system and works well once you put in the time required to really dial things in. The user software is what I had the most beef with... it just really needs to be refined with the user's experience taken more into account. But hell... being a software engineer I'm very picky about software in general, so I have comments like these for a lot of tuning packages ;).

Thanks
-- Ed

Ed, this road dyno software you wrote, how exactly does it work?

Sorry if it's a side question, feel free to PM me if you like.

Thanks,

Chris

Thanks Phil,

The Hydra deffinately has some quirks and takes some getting used to but overall its a good system and works well once you put in the time required to really dial things in. The user software is what I had the most beef with... it just really needs to be refined with the user's experience taken more into account. But hell... being a software engineer I'm very picky about software in general, so I have comments like these for a lot of tuning packages ;).

Thanks
-- Ed

Hey, I understand. I constantly find myself stroking the wrong keys and using the wrong short cuts bouncing from tuning one EMS to another. Everyone has their preferences. I think the Hydra is near perfect an everything else is quirky. :lol:

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Ed, this road dyno software you wrote, how exactly does it work?

Sorry if it's a side question, feel free to PM me if you like.

Thanks,

Chris

The road dyno software is based on some basic physics calculations. The software looks at a log of RPM over some time index. From this it can calculate the engine's acceleration (dRPM/dT). It then looks at a configuration for the specific car which includes gearing, tires size, weight, and aerodynamic data and uses these variables to calculate both the car's actual on-road acceleration and the load curve imposed on the car from its weight and aerodynamic drag as the car accelerates. It then calculates the torque required to accelerate the car, compensating for the aerodynamic drag and weight. From the torque curve, it derives the whp curve with the basic conversion equation. As you may have guessed, this sort of data is relatively low frequency and somewhat noisy so the real key to the software was coming up with the right smoothing algorithm to use to provide both good resolution as well as a realistic representation of the car's behaviour.

Just FYI, I never use any correction factors for weather or altitude or anything like that. These graphs represent exactly how the car accelerates in those specific conditions. Through experimentation I've found that when used on a flat road and with all the correct configuration data, the power figures as well as the shapes of the curves are very consistant, very representative of real world performance both at the track and when pitted against other cars, and finally to my surprise, the numbers almost always come out to within 3-4whp of the lower reading Mustang dynos. I never expected the numbers to be so close to another dyno personally, but the fact that they are tells me that these Mustang dynos are probably some of the most accurate in terms of actual real world performance.

Thanks
-- Ed

Ed,

Nice job tuning the Element Hydra and I'm glad your customer is happy!

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Sup Phil, I was the one having problems with the conflicting map passwords. Once Ed and I figured it out the tuning was ON! :D Car runs beautifully! One question though, how much for a FTS/Launch control switch setup?

Sup Phil, I was the one having problems with the conflicting map passwords. Once Ed and I figured it out the tuning was ON! :D Car runs beautifully! One question though, how much for a FTS/Launch control switch setup?

I'm glad you are happy. The Accessory Harness is $59.

Thanks,
Phil
www.elementtuning.com

Some launch control would certainly be interesting with the C16 map ;)

The road dyno software is based on some basic physics calculations. The software looks at a log of RPM over some time index. From this it can calculate the engine's acceleration (dRPM/dT). It then looks at a configuration for the specific car which includes gearing, tires size, weight, and aerodynamic data and uses these variables to calculate both the car's actual on-road acceleration and the load curve imposed on the car from its weight and aerodynamic drag as the car accelerates. It then calculates the torque required to accelerate the car, compensating for the aerodynamic drag and weight. From the torque curve, it derives the whp curve with the basic conversion equation. As you may have guessed, this sort of data is relatively low frequency and somewhat noisy so the real key to the software was coming up with the right smoothing algorithm to use to provide both good resolution as well as a realistic representation of the car's behaviour.

Just FYI, I never use any correction factors for weather or altitude or anything like that. These graphs represent exactly how the car accelerates in those specific conditions. Through experimentation I've found that when used on a flat road and with all the correct configuration data, the power figures as well as the shapes of the curves are very consistant, very representative of real world performance both at the track and when pitted against other cars, and finally to my surprise, the numbers almost always come out to within 3-4whp of the lower reading Mustang dynos. I never expected the numbers to be so close to another dyno personally, but the fact that they are tells me that these Mustang dynos are probably some of the most accurate in terms of actual real world performance.

Thanks
-- Ed

That's impressive. Are all the calculations based on a log taken within a certain timeframe? Is it something close to what a normal pull would be on the dyno.. like 10 seconds or something similar?

Either way, that's really freakin cool.

Would there be any gain in power if he went with a 3"inlet and EWG.

I have a SBR 20g that is a TD06. I was wondering what the difference is between these turbo's? I also thought 22psi is a little high for a 91oct and no alchy, am I wrong? I had a 93oct with alchy protune map at 23psi and my rings gave up. I am getting rid of the alchy and was wondering what kind of tune would be safe for me. I have all the supporting mods, I am guessing the rings were going before I got the car, maybe a high boost dyno run or something.

That's impressive. Are all the calculations based on a log taken within a certain timeframe? Is it something close to what a normal pull would be on the dyno.. like 10 seconds or something similar?

Either way, that's really freakin cool.


The software actually looks for the longest consecutive series in which RPM is increasing over time (with a threshold built in for noise). Once the software find this data, I also have the option of manually trimming the ends of the data one entry at a time. The procedure I use for getting this data is pretty much the same as you would on a dyno. We just do an pull from ~2k RPM to redline in the appropriate gear and then load the log into the road dyno software.

So there isn't a set time for the pull like you're thinking... the time actually depends on the power the car is making and therefore how quickly it can rev through the RPM range ;).

Thanks
-- Ed

Would there be any gain in power if he went with a 3"inlet and EWG.


I would think that the 3" inlet would mainly help with spoolup and overall response although I'm sure it would help with the top end a bit as well. An external wastegate would also likely help a bit, but this setup was not experiencing any boost creep.

Thanks
-- Ed

I have a SBR 20g that is a TD06. I was wondering what the difference is between these turbo's? I also thought 22psi is a little high for a 91oct and no alchy, am I wrong? I had a 93oct with alchy protune map at 23psi and my rings gave up. I am getting rid of the alchy and was wondering what kind of tune would be safe for me. I have all the supporting mods, I am guessing the rings were going before I got the car, maybe a high boost dyno run or something.

I can't comment directly on the SBR turbo as I've never used it. Remember that the TD06 and 20G classification just specifies the compressor and turbine wheels being used, not necessarily the housings. I would guess that your turbo has a 7cm housing just like most of the other 20G variants available. The 8cm housing is what really did the trick with this turbo and IMO it should be a requirement to even make this upgrade worth it.

As far as 22psi being too high, it all depends on the rest of the tune. Rings usually let go in response to knock, not just high boost levels. If timing and a/f is tuned appropriately, 21-22psi should not cause any issues. That being said, the car hardly ever actually experiences boost levels this high. Remember that the max boost is only reached in the mid range in the higher gears. Generally when driving hard, you'll be revving the car pretty high in each gear which means the engine will hardly ever even see 19psi.

Thanks
-- Ed

Very impressive.

Very impressive.

Thank you sir, the car runs awesome ;)

stock boost control solenoid Ed?

stock boost control solenoid Ed?

Hallman MBC :)

stock boost control solenoid Ed?


haha... I toss the stock solenoid in any STI with an upgraded turbo. In a WRX, I recommend an upgrade to a 3-port even at stage 1 ;).


-- Ed

for sure... the 8cm2 green is very close to 30r performance. great turbo

Or better in some cases...

def

Or better in some cases...

def


Only in the case of a very poor rotated setup.

Hey Ed did you get my PM?

Very impressive numbers--glad you got an early Xmas gift! I'll be running a 'somewhat' similar set up to you, and will be looking forward to what I get. Tuning will be via PDX tuning in Portland, OR. My kit so far:

FPGreen 8cm 3" inlet
APS inlet and 70mm CAI
PE 850'
Walbro 255lph
XO2 larger TMIC, Forge diverter valve
Hondata gaskets
JDM TGV delete manifold spacers
Cobb AP and TurboXS DTEC

Very impressive numbers--glad you got an early Xmas gift! I'll be running a 'somewhat' similar set up to you, and will be looking forward to what I get. Tuning will be via PDX tuning in Portland, OR. My kit so far:

FPGreen 8cm 3" inlet
APS inlet and 70mm CAI
PE 850'
Walbro 255lph
XO2 larger TMIC, Forge diverter valve
Hondata gaskets
JDM TGV delete manifold spacers
Cobb AP and TurboXS DTEC

Thanks... I'd be interested to see the difference a 3" inlet makes. I would imagine overall power would be similar but you should get some nice gains in response.

-- Ed

Thanks... I'd be interested to see the difference a 3" inlet makes. I would imagine overall power would be similar but you should get some nice gains in response.

-- Ed
i'd like to see the effect of the 3" inlet as well

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