Still a work in progress but I am happy with the results thus far!!!!! :devil:

http://iwsti.com/blogs/007STI/

Make sure to check out the link for dyno charts and photos!!:banana:

Woot Woot!!! :banana: Crazy to think how high I was on race gas fumes after all that time running the dyno yesterday!!

It will be fun when we get it on again and turn the boost up!!!

Good Job Mitch, i'm glad to see it all coming together, and dayum, who can complain about traction issues at 85mph:eek:

Jesus christ!

.......... speachless

sickest setup, can't wait to see how much the 6-speed can hold :)

Not bad! Great looking fab work. Is that header using the twin entry on the turbo is it merged before? I cant tell from the pics.

Clark

Nice, that Intake Mani looks good. Great job all around.

:eek: Whoaaaaaaaaaa!!! Daaaaaaaaaaaaym!!!

i need to hear what this car sounds like, any video?

oops I crapped my pants! :eek:

wow, that looks sick, nice fab work!!!!! Good luck with it.

start saving for a dogbox.... lol

amazing. i cant wait til its done and you hit the track

beautiful work. intake and exhaust look badass

omg that thing is amazing, complete sleeper......

wow :eek:
great fabrication work!

what's the point of doing the reverse manifold if the piping is routed like that???

Can I have a ride one day :D

And a street car no less. I love it!

Wow! Got new axles? My guess is they go before the tranny. such a sleeper! looks great!

Wow, I am speechless

Jesus christ...that is NICE

No piping is going over the turbo. Plus if you reverse the piping you'll only save a little. I think that is short enough.

Sick sleeper by the way. Let's see the track video. what's the point of doing the reverse manifold if the piping is routed like that???

please post videos of that White Gozilla =)

you mentioned needing bigger injectors, why not just bump fuel pressure?

and superb build!

Now Thats What I Am Talking About!!!

great setup, and awesome fab job! Car looks beautiful on the outside and under the hood. You need to make some video's NOW, I command thee! :)

Oh my god. And you're local to boot!

I wanna see it... :D

thank you. f-in awesome.

you mentioned needing bigger injectors, why not just bump fuel pressure?

and superb build!

If you read in the first paragraph on the blog it tells you that base fuel was bumped to 60psi. The walbros are rated to but not beyond 85psi. Stock base fuel pressure is around 43psi. This is why the pressure wasn't bumped any further.

impressive.... I'm still thinking that despite the 35r, we still might be running undersized turbos to reach those crazy high numbers that some crave. Perhaps the built 4 bangers have more to show given the right turbo..Perhaps soon we will be shopping for similar turbos as the Supra boys.... or wait.... with the 42r, we are already no?

My thoughts exactly, but I think I am biased because I have a friend that has a 4788R on his supra.

what's the point of doing the reverse manifold if the piping is routed like that???

Sometimes you have to sacrifice one thing for another. In this case I would figered that I would like to have the intake manifold plenum size and the turbo size that I wanted and having an extra foot or two of IC piping is not nearly as important. The upper IC piping and outlet of the compressor housing actually sit in the hood scoop when the hood is closed. Long story short, 10 pounds of **** in a 5 pound bag!!!!!!!!!:p

nice freakin car man. O man i love those volks. Those gold with the lip would look so nice on black. So if you feel like donating ever, or even a little present under the tree ehh.lol j/k

Not bad! Great looking fab work. Is that header using the twin entry on the turbo is it merged before? I cant tell from the pics.

Clark

Surprisingly I am not taking advantage of the twin entry on the turbine housing. To me it seems like the turbo still comes on fairly quick for a larger turbo with 1.01 AR on the turbine side. Is there spool up time to be gained????? If so that would be great because the spool up is not nearly as bad as I anticipated.

-bows and kisses feet-


subscribed

****ing sick.

i would definitly do that thing in the pooper......

...... ... :eek: ......

Surprisingly I am not taking advantage of the twin entry on the turbine housing. To me it seems like the turbo still comes on fairly quick for a larger turbo with 1.01 AR on the turbine side. Is there spool up time to be gained????? If so that would be great because the spool up is not nearly as bad as I anticipated.


Hey Mitch, are you sure you're a scooby newbie???:D

Sure am, and I am dam proud of it!!!!!!!

Great job.Love the port work on the heads!That intake is phenominal!

thats a great build...the numbers are awesome.

Surprisingly I am not taking advantage of the twin entry on the turbine housing. To me it seems like the turbo still comes on fairly quick for a larger turbo with 1.01 AR on the turbine side. Is there spool up time to be gained????? If so that would be great because the spool up is not nearly as bad as I anticipated.

On the GT4088's there is about 1000 rpm to be gained using the twin entry. I think this would be very much worth your effort to redo the header. Also there is a now a GT4094 which has the GT40r turbine side in .85 AR or .95 twin entry with the 42R compressor. That would have a much wider power band. But hell man. I am impressed with what you got.

Clark

***Official NutSwinger Post***
All I have to say is BIG ****ING PROPS for having the balls to go against the grain in this place and just take it so much further then what most are willing to even think about doing. External pump, BIG TIME motor R&D, custom intake and exhaust work, god the time and money spent man. You know me I'm a mouth and where I talk about ****, you are a doer and that's just bad ****ing ass to the extent that VERY FEW will understand.

This car really almost did make me crap my pants. Litterally, I thought it was going to climb the rollers and attack the dyno room, it was so intense and pure sex.

Liberty had a little bit of missinfo there. The pumps are bypassed at 85 PSI, not 65 PSI as they are walbro 255HP pumps. The car was seeing over 6 kg/cm^2 fuel pressure under boost.

The GT4094R does not use the same compressor wheel as the GT4294R. The GT4094R is a 67mm inducer, where the GT4294R is a 70mm inducer. The GT4094R also looks to be quite surge happy on the compressor flow maps. Those GT4088R also seems to be choked with any housing under the 1.05 A/R on just a 2.0L too, I can't imagine a larger compressor being happy at all with those little housings. I've seen back to back tests on the GT4088R and the GT4294R, I wouldn't even bother with the GT4088R if you are looking to go really fast. They might make a fun street turbochargers though, especially on a 2.5L.

***Official NutSwinger Post***
All I have to say is BIG ****ING PROPS for having the balls to go against the grain in this place and just take it so much further then what most are willing to even think about doing. External pump, BIG TIME motor R&D, custom intake and exhaust work, god the time and money spent man. You know me I'm a mouth and where I talk about ****, you are a doer and that's just bad ****ing ass to the extent that VERY FEW will understand.

This car really almost did make me crap my pants. Litterally, I thought it was going to climb the rollers and attack the dyno room, it was so intense and pure sex.

Liberty had a little bit of missinfo there. The pumps are bypassed at 85 PSI, not 65 PSI as they are walbro 255HP pumps. The car was seeing over 6 kg/cm^2 fuel pressure under boost.

The GT4094R does not use the same compressor wheel as the GT4294R. The GT4094R is a 67mm inducer, where the GT4294R is a 70mm inducer. The GT4094R also looks to be quite surge happy on the compressor flow maps. Those GT4088R also seems to be choked with any housing under the 1.05 A/R on just a 2.0L too, I can't imagine a larger compressor being happy at all with those little housings. I've seen back to back tests on the GT4088R and the GT4294R, I wouldn't even bother with the GT4088R if you are looking to go really fast. They might make a fun street turbochargers though, especially on a 2.5L.


Welcome Mike, and thanks for the clarification, I couldn't agree more about Mitch having the balls to do what he's done with this car. A guy who does all of this out of his garage with the help of a few friends deserves some serious props. :disco:

Fun times, I think it's motivated me to get the evo back together and see what it will do on the dyno before it goes.

I can't wait for the next trip back to see how the white beast does on more boost!!!

http://www.iwsti.com/blogs/uploads/0/007STI/358.jpg
http://www.georgieperformance.com/media/pictures/Georgie700/georgie-697whpsaesmall.jpg

I would have imagined a bigger difference in spool time between the 35r and a 4294.

It will be fun to see what more dyno time, larger injectors and a few other small tricks will do to that dyno curve.

Bucks curve is really similiar but the torque curve he has and the way power holds once the gate opens is damn impresive, frankly, I don't think your car is too far away from making real similiar power.

I really wouldn't expect the GT4294R to make more power then the GT3582R until the point the GT3582R runs out of air. The GT3582R is one bad ass turbo with excellent efficiency until roughly 58 pounds/min of airflow. But considering they are both at roughly the same boost level, I would expect them to have roughly the same power. Only thing is, the GT4294R still probably has 10 PSI worth of boost in it where that GT3582R is MAXED the hell out.:devil:

And only 500 RPM more lag... NIIIIICCCCCCCEEE!

Yummy...bigger injetors and a few little issues resolved and...sorry, I got to run to the bathroom...I just got the biggest wood thinking about the results of that...

Congrats Mitch.

*added:
Ok, I better keep myself in check. I'm just so stoked to see the car finally strut it's stuff. Even if it wasn't all that she had.

very nice work.

We need to talk about that intake manifold...

Mitch glad to see the setup up and running. Your old fuel rails and fpr are doing well in my STi. ;) Neways your setup is fuggin nuts man, I guess the pay for being civilian in the AF isn't too bad after all. LOL

That's some nice fab work! This thing must be a beast!

Mad props

I would have imagined a big difference between the 35r and a 4294.

It will be fun to see what more dyno time, larger injectors and a few other small tricks will do to that dyno curve.

Bucks curve is really similiar but the torque curve he has and the way power holds once the gate opens is damn impresive, frankly, I don't think your car is too far away from making real similiar power.

There is a big difference.
Assuming the dynos are equal (???).... what you have shown with the two plots is that a 35R @ 32psi w/ 100 shot ~=~ 42R @ 28psi.

There is a big difference.
Assuming the dynos are equal (???).... what you have shown with the two plots is that a 35R @ 32psi w/ 100 shot ~=~ 42R @ 28psi.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Well, i think i'll be needing one of these snails under my hood!:lol:

I was thinking that GT35R looked like one of the healthiest GT35R cars I've ever seen. Makes more sense that it has a 100 shot on top of it because that is a lot of power on an AWD dyno. I still think that the GT35R should be quite close to the GT4294R on power until to starts to approach the choke flow limit of the 35 though.

As for fitting one under the hood, you are going to need to invest in redeveloping the realastate under there to make room for it.

Absolutely phenomenal!

VERY Impressive. Glad you got the bugs worked out and finally got it running. I am sure it was worth it in the end.

You could definitely get that turbo to spool faster by utilizing the twinscroll.

-Matt

There is a big difference.
Assuming the dynos are equal (???).... what you have shown with the two plots is that a 35R @ 32psi w/ 100 shot ~=~ 42R @ 28psi.

You clearly misunderstood my post. I was well aware that the dyno chart of the 35R was with a 100 shot.

I was referring to spool time more than anything. A 70mm inducer vs a 61.4, I honestly thought you'd see quite a bit of spool up difference.

It would be interesting to see how Mitch's car would spool a 35R. I'm sure that the head work, intake manifold, and TB/Intercooler and piping have a lot to do with how well the motor spools the 42R.

I guess I should have been more clear in my post. I wasn't saying that I was surprised the 35r was close in power output. I can post a few other 42R dyno plots that have been run here at work on one of our dyno's which would leave the 35R chart cowering in the shadows. I'm well aware of the power capabilities of each turbo.

oops I crapped my pants! :eek:

http://bluejersey.net/images/diary/oops.jpg

:lol:


Good job Mitch!!! It is nice to see this come together for you after all your hard work!!!

Ben

:eek: !!

nice. :)

WOW, impressive on SO many levels!

Local put a GT42 on his STi...didn't turn out so well. Shop doing the build kept running into more problems. Looked great and the setup was good...just not making nearly as much power as it should. Glad to see someone pulling an appropriate amount of power out of it.

As for when the tranny breaks...the local shop cracked the tranny housing and blew the final drive gear out the back...and it was still only making 500whp. Not sure if it was a tranny problem or a shop / build problem, but I wouldn't push them too far.

Holy crap Mitch, NICE!!!!!!

Next time you guys throw it on the dyno, have Mr. Story call me and I'll be up there with my camera gear pronto!

Once you get the final tune done, That thing would be alot of fun with launch control in 3rd gear.:banana:

That dyno plot reminds me of a song...


"Can't you hear me knockin"

Badass!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congrats man! Sick setup.

Local put a GT42 on his STi...didn't turn out so well. Shop doing the build kept running into more problems. Looked great and the setup was good...just not making nearly as much power as it should. Glad to see someone pulling an appropriate amount of power out of it.

As for when the tranny breaks...the local shop cracked the tranny housing and blew the final drive gear out the back...and it was still only making 500whp. Not sure if it was a tranny problem or a shop / build problem, but I wouldn't push them too far.

Plenty of STi trannys are putting up with 500 ft-lbs of torque on a daily basis. The boys in PR just went 9.9 on slicks with a stock unit and they are making 700ftlbs of torque.

Nice car. Looks so clean on the outside too.

Nice work.

Beautifull. Get an Automatic trany and hold on for your life.

That dyno plot reminds me of a song...


"Can't you hear me knockin"


The Rolling Stones have never seen my spark plugs because they tell a different story!!!

WoW!! Three pages and no flames or negative comments yet!! It's amazing.....

Glad to see a "good" thread with a great build, positive comments, and proven power.

Now, get that thing to the track and pull some ridiculous traps!

i love u.....haha jk


good luck!!!! post as many pics and vids as you can!!!!

btw awesome job

Thoes numbers seem kinda low for a 42r... then again its on a suby :lol: .....

Just kidding ;)


Glad to see people pushing the envolope again. If you guys keep it up maby ill come back from the dark side :devil:

Why are the runners on your intake manifold so long? With your powerband shifted to 6-8K RPM, I would think you'd want a manifold with shorter runners. I am not knocking your build as it is quite impressive, just looking for information because I am building a manifold(s) now for my car's shown in the link below. From all the formulas I've found, you'd want a runner length of about 8-8.5" above the TGV housing to put your "peak" RPM around 5.5-6K RPM. Yours looks to be 10+" which would put you well below that and out of the area where you are making boost:

Also, why did you leave so much of the runner inlets hanging out in the plenum and facing the wrong way? Did you just have problems with packaging or is there a theoretical benefit? It's obvious you know what you are doing, I am just questioning the reasons behind some of your decisions.

Bill

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23730&highlight=itb

nice build up...can't wait to see it sometime

Holy crap....good idea putting an engine on that turbo.

That dyno plot reminds me of a song...


"Can't you hear me knockin"

The rougher chart can be attributed to two things, neither of which have anything to do with detonation.

1. Low timing advance, which is the dips you see at 6.6k and 7.5k. There were lower values here in the map. Notice the redline that dropped off when it lost tach signal? Notice the ~30 more HP at 7000 RPM? That was 1 degree MORE timing advance above the run displayed by the blue line from 6500-8000 RPM... There is still a LOT left in the tuning on this thing even at this boost level. But as mentioned, the car was just out of injector and some things are going to be changed shortly so there was no point in polishing up the tune, as it would have just been a waste of time. Think about that though, 1 degree more advance, 30 WHP and the plugs were nice and clean with the heat marks getting closer to where they should be. Furthermore, the knock sensor was disabled anyway, so you would not see dramatic dips in the power curve anyway from mild detonation because there was no knock retard happening what so ever. Thanks for the comment, but it is apparent you are wrong here.:o

2. At 600+ HP, dyno charts typically get a little rough just because of the shear power involved. The car was climbing the rollers hard even with 8 straps holding it down. The slightest twitch of the hand on the steering wheel could probably scrub off 30 HP at this level. Dynoing a 300 HP car is a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT then dynoing a 600+ HP car.



God I can't wait to see what this thing will do with some 1600s and a few other little changes.:disco:

Holy crap....good idea putting an engine on that turbo.

hahahah, best pun in this thread!!:D

The rougher chart can be attributed to two things, neither of which have anything to do with detonation.

1. Low timing advance, which is the dips you see at 6.6k and 7.5k. There were lower values here in the map. Notice the redline that dropped off when it lost tach signal? Notice the ~30 more HP at 7000 RPM? That was 1 degree MORE timing advance above the run displayed by the blue line from 6500-8000 RPM... There is still a LOT left in the tuning on this thing even at this boost level. But as mentioned, the car was just out of injector and some things are going to be changed shortly so there was no point in polishing up the tune, as it would have just been a waste of time. Think about that though, 1 degree more advance, 30 WHP and the plugs were nice and clean with the heat marks getting closer to where they should be. Furthermore, the knock sensor was disabled anyway, so you would not see dramatic dips in the power curve anyway from mild detonation because there was no knock retard happening what so ever. Thanks for the comment, but it is apparent you are wrong here.:o

2. At 600+ HP, dyno charts typically get a little rough just because of the shear power involved. The car was climbing the rollers hard even with 8 straps holding it down. The slightest twitch of the hand on the steering wheel could probably scrub off 30 HP at this level. Dynoing a 300 HP car is a WHOLE LOT DIFFERENT then dynoing a 600+ HP car.



God I can't wait to see what this thing will do with some 1600s and a few other little changes.:disco:

post appreciated its almost worth my posting praise.

Why are the runners on your intake manifold so long? With your powerband shifted to 6-8K RPM, I would think you'd want a manifold with shorter runners. I am not knocking your build as it is quite impressive, just looking for information because I am building a manifold(s) now for my car's shown in the link below. From all the formulas I've found, you'd want a runner length of about 8-8.5" above the TGV housing to put your "peak" RPM around 5.5-6K RPM. Yours looks to be 10+" which would put you well below that and out of the area where you are making boost:

Also, why did you leave so much of the runner inlets hanging out in the plenum and facing the wrong way? Did you just have problems with packaging or is there a theoretical benefit? It's obvious you know what you are doing, I am just questioning the reasons behind some of your decisions.

Bill

http://www.tristatetuners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23730&highlight=itb

I am glad that we came up with similar #'s. From the top of the velocity stack to the top of the TGV my runner length is 8.44inchs when measuring it on the center line. Now my runner length depends on if you measure the distance on the 90deg bend on the inside or the outside of the radius of the pre-bend (take your pick, I went with the center line). As far as the directionality of the velocity stacks I really don't think of the manifold as a steady constant flow action more like the plenum area as a holding tank and each runner draws from that holding tank when a particular intake valve is opened. So my thoughts were to have the air come in get broken up and not have any runner in particular have a strait shot from the throttle body, this could cause differences between the cylinders. Does it work??? When reading the spark plugs on the dyno all the cylinders looked really even with an exception to #1 that seamed to need a little more fuel, good thing the hydra has individual cylinder trims. So #1 is the cylinder that we would pay close attention to because if it looked good the others are also doing well. So is it perfect? No but I am very happy with the way that it worked the first time to the dyno. If you are building your own manifold I am sure you are running into some of the same issues that I ran into. You have this great ideal on how to make the perfect manifold then you start trying to make it fit and realize that there are definite compromises between fit and function. In my twisted little mind this all makes sense. Please correct me if I am wrong, it would not be the first time. Hopefully anything is better than the stock manifold!!

I have been running Dynojets since the 90's. If you see a run that is missing a section the Car knocked. The Dynojet uses a magnetic pickup and when an engine knocks even slightly you loose the RPM pickup. When this happens many tuners switch the bottom readout to Speed instead of RPM as the Line will be restored without the missing section.

Hope this helps.

CLark

I am glad that we came up with similar #'s. From the top of the velocity stack to the top of the TGV my runner length is 8.44inchs when measuring it on the center line. Now my runner length depends on if you measure the distance on the 90deg bend on the inside or the outside of the radius of the pre-bend (take your pick, I went with the center line). As far as the directionality of the velocity stacks I really don't think of the manifold as a steady constant flow action more like the plenum area as a holding tank and each runner draws from that holding tank when a particular intake valve is opened. So my thoughts were to have the air come in get broken up and not have any runner in particular have a strait shot from the throttle body, this could cause differences between the cylinders. Does it work??? When reading the spark plugs on the dyno all the cylinders looked really even with an exception to #1 that seamed to need a little more fuel, good thing the hydra has individual cylinder trims. So #1 is the cylinder that we would pay close attention to because if it looked good the others are also doing well. So is it perfect? No but I am very happy with the way that it worked the first time to the dyno. If you are building your own manifold I am sure you are running into some of the same issues that I ran into. You have this great ideal on how to make the perfect manifold then you start trying to make it fit and realize that there are definite compromises between fit and function. In my twisted little mind this all makes sense. Please correct me if I am wrong, it would not be the first time. Hopefully anything is better than the stock manifold!!

Well OK, It just didn't seem like your runners were that short. If you look at the link in my first post you can see my manifolds that I am designing and those runners come out to around 8" long as calculated in Solidworks from the exact middle path. If you ever want to swap heads/cams with me let me know.:rolleyes:

Just a word of advice too, I would be very careful with that current tune you have (as someone mentioned earlier) you ARE having knock on the dyno (and on 2 consecutive pulls too). When the RPM pick-up loses its signal during a pull, your engine has knocked. I've seen and experienced this firsthand. You have a ton of time and money invested and I would hate to see you loose it over 20hp.

If you ever need anything designed or help with anything, just give me PM. I am always looking for creative ways to spend time at work designing things.

Thanks, this is the first time the car has been on a dynojet. That pick up must be really sensitive because we were watching the plugs between every run and they were looking great!

I have been running Dynojets since the 90's. If you see a run that is missing a section the Car knocked. The Dynojet uses a magnetic pickup and when an engine knocks even slightly you loose the RPM pickup. When this happens many tuners switch the bottom readout to Speed instead of RPM as the Line will be restored without the missing section.

Hope this helps.

CLark


Clark, if this is the case can you please explain to me why on a perfectly stock diesel engine sometimes this exact dynojet loses the RPM? Diesels run on detonation and create far more engine noise because of the high voltage used to fire the injectors, it's common place to loose the signal.

We currently have two engineers on staff that have 25+ years experience with dyno tuning on dyno jets along with other dynos of the likes of mustangs, and superflows they say it's an inherent design flaw when running an inductive pickup on a coil on plug set up.

I'm interested to know more on your theory, and why it varies from what they think.

*I'm not saying your wrong, i'm just trying to learn from what you've seen.

Clark, if this is the case can you please explain to me why on a perfectly stock diesel engine sometimes this exact dynojet loses the RPM? Diesels run on detonation and create far more engine noise because of the high voltage used to fire the injectors, it's common place to loose the signal.

We currently have two engineers on staff that have 25+ years experience with dyno tuning on dyno jets along with other dynos of the likes of mustangs, and superflows they say it's an inherent design flaw when running an inductive pickup on a coil on plug set up.

I'm interested to know more on your theory, and why it varies from what they think.

*I'm not saying your wrong, i'm just trying to learn from what you've seen.

We'll I can't speak for Clark, but I've heard this first hand from 3 other big name tuners (basically every place I've been to that has a dynojet) here on the east coast too. If you ask me, it's not really a design flaw, it's more helpful than anything.

Any pic of the finished setup? under the hood. That is just insane.

Clark, I'd love to hear an explanation of why it would drop signal after detonation. The dyno seemed to drop signal at times when detonation would absolutely NOT have been an issue and then there were a few runs with definite signs of mild detonation on the plugs that never dropped the signal at all. I also have a good friend that has tuned NUMEROUS 800+ HP imports and I've never heard him mention it. I'll have to ask him this question though and see if he has seen similar results.

As for runner length, I have a few books on it and the runner length used is right in the neighborhood of were these references have lead me to believe they should be. Now, maybe my references aren't that great (unlikely) or maybe I just misunderstood (plausible) but the runner length chosen seems to target a torque peak at ~7800 RPM. The difference between your measurement and ours might have more to do with the length you are suggesting seems to be targeted at a 1/4 wave resonator? Maybe the logic is flawed that was used, but the length of those runners is aimed at a 1/2 wave resonator, which will have a stronger resonance tuning effect then a 1/4 wave resonator.

Further more, from all the reading I have done on the matter, you do not use centerline path anyway. You use the path that air is most likely to follow and considering you are talking mach index flow well above .3, it would be compressible flow and most flow would tend to the outside of a bend. The general idea in modeling software seems to be to assume a basic correction to the longest path length. This correction factor seems to be in the 90-98% range from the material I have. In case anybody wants a source reference: Design Techniques for Engine Manifolds, DE Winterbone and RJ Pearson, ISBN 0-7680-0482-9

The runners are off the floor of the plenum because it reduces inlet losses. A straight tube sticking out there would not be a good thing, but a full radius inlet trumpet pulled off the floor of the plenum offers about a 5% reduction in inlet losses compared to a radius inlet on the floor of the plenum.

Either way, cam timing is the first thing that will be tested on the next trip before there is any worry about the hard parts.

If you read in the first paragraph on the blog it tells you that base fuel was bumped to 60psi. The walbros are rated to but not beyond 85psi. Stock base fuel pressure is around 43psi. This is why the pressure wasn't bumped any further.

just so you know, i run my walbro at 30 over oem pressure (ie 73 base), and 25psi boost on top. it hasn't died yet.

Nice that they last under maximum pressure.

The problem isn't the rated pressure though. The Walbro pumps have internal pressure by-pass valves. The 255HP has a pressure relief valve at ~85 PSI. 60 PSI base + 25 PSI means the fuel pressure can not raise any higher and you no longer mainatain a 1:1 pressure rise with respect to boost. You can account for this in the fuel map, provided you have large enough injectors, but this car ran out of injector too, so we really couldn't get any more fuel out of the current setup because the fuel pressure maxed out right at 6 kg/cm^2, which is 85.2 PSI, right were they are expected to be maxed out at.

I know everyone is pointing their finger at knock as the cause to the dynojet loosing timing signal!!! What about misfire can this cause the dyno to drop signal????? The only reason I am asking is because there are four important things not yet mentioned in this thread that would be needed to really diagnose knock such as spark plug heat range, AFR, timing advance, and type of fuel. My thinking is because as far as ignition goes a misfire can mimic a knock event in many ways and the values we were running were all very very conservative. But then again who knows what conservative is on a 42R Subaru????

Nice that they last under maximum pressure.

The problem isn't the rated pressure though. The Walbro pumps have internal pressure by-pass valves. The 255HP has a pressure relief valve at ~85 PSI. 60 PSI base + 25 PSI means the fuel pressure can not raise any higher and you no longer mainatain a 1:1 pressure rise with respect to boost. You can account for this in the fuel map, provided you have large enough injectors, but this car ran out of injector too, so we really couldn't get any more fuel out of the current setup because the fuel pressure maxed out right at 6 kg/cm^2, which is 85.2 PSI, right were they are expected to be maxed out at.

if you're trying to tell me that as my manifold relative pressure passes through 12psi, and my adjustable fuel pressure regulator (which is set to 73psi relative) demands more than 85psi from the pump, that the pump's internal bypass clamps the output pressure to 85psi and no more, then i can safely tell you with 100% certainty that you are wrong.

due to a failed oem fpr, i've seen MY walbro that's IN MY CAR crank out well over 100psig as it totally pegged this gauge:

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/sum-800215.jpg

it made a lot of racket, but the very same gss342 is still in the car and it still pumps my gas.

so, where did you get your "85psi max" from?

Ride5000, what does your fuel system consist of fuel line, and fuel rail wise?

sock is oem
pump is gss342
line all the way from pump to underhood filter is oem
filter is generic summit 5micron, stainless
lh rail is oem
crossover is oem
rh rail is oem
custom fitting to mate to rh rail end
high pressure fuel hose to aeromotive 13109 (only one inlet used)
low pressure fuel hose back to damper/ufo
oem return to tank

sock is oem
pump is gss342
line all the way from pump to underhood filter is oem
filter is generic summit 5micron, stainless
lh rail is oem
crossover is oem
rh rail is oem
custom fitting to mate to rh rail end
high pressure fuel hose to aeromotive 13109 (only one inlet used)
low pressure fuel hose back to damper/ufo
oem return to tank

Here's an excelent link for fuel pump data.

http://www.mkiv.com/techarticles/fuel_pumps_test_2/index.html


The only difference between the 255lp (315) and 255hp (341) is that bypass valve. Thus the reason they have the same flow ratings up until ~60 PSI.

The reason you were able to see over 100 PSI is pretty apparent. The pump bypass can only flow so much fuel. The pump can still maintain ~70lph which is more then enough to idle the engine on. If you had taken the RPM and load up enough to overcome the required 70 lph, you would have seen the fuel pressure drop.

We'll I can't speak for Clark, but I've heard this first hand from 3 other big name tuners (basically every place I've been to that has a dynojet) here on the east coast too. If you ask me, it's not really a design flaw, it's more helpful than anything.

A phone call was made to dynojet today asking them about the inductive pickup and knock interuption.

Their simple answer was; "We don't think they are related, more than likely you are picking up some random noise which is causing an interruption in the timing signal, try connecting the inductive pickup as close to the ECU as you can next time you dyno it."

So, hopefully that makes an improvement. That was the first time we've had a subaru on that dyno, and we had a hard time maintaining rpm signal even in low load/no boost situations.

I'm still very interested in the theory as to why knock would cause an interuption in the rpm signal for the inductive pickup.

Spark events have a duration, in extreme cases, misfure or knock events can cause the spark not to actually occur, or it begins but is put out prematurely. The change in dissipation of the spart energy can show up as electrical noise being emitted, or a reduction in electrical intensity in the HT lead. Spark ionisation monitoring is a method of knock control employed by some manufacturers of Swedish muscle cars.

The reason you were able to see over 100 PSI is pretty apparent.

actually, it is not apparent at all. :lol:

either a bypass is sized to bypass the full output of the pump, or it's not. if it's not, then it really has no consequence, because by definition it will be unable to clamp the output pressure to a predetermined value.

The pump bypass can only flow so much fuel. The pump can still maintain ~70lph which is more then enough to idle the engine on. If you had taken the RPM and load up enough to overcome the required 70 lph, you would have seen the fuel pressure drop.

and this is different from every fuel pump installed in every car in which way?

of course every pump will see volume flow drop as output pressure rises.
of course if you outflow the pump then the pressure will drop.
of course if your rail pressure is dropping from too high a flow rate at too high a pressure you have to compensate for that in other ways.

i don't know why this is so hard to understand: there is NOTHING about the high pressure 255lph pumps that limits their output pressure to <85psi. are you still claiming that the internal bypass valve does so? if you are, explain this:

http://autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/hp255lph.jpg

the fact that a hp255lph walbro CAN and WILL make more than 85psi rail pressure stares you right in the face.

i can tell you that at full tilt my engine is eating about 300g/s of air, and runs 11.5:1 afr. that means 26.1g/s fuel. let's use a specific gravity of 0.72 for the gas. that nets us 26.1/0.72 = 36.23cc/s = 2173.9cc/min = 130435cc/hr = 130l/hr = 34gal/hr.

i can reverse check these numbers too: oem wrx blue injectors are 440cc/min. i have increased fuel pressure from 43psi to 73psi. 73/43 = 1.698, sqrt(1.698) = 1.303 which is the scale factor. 1.303 * 440cc/min = 573.3cc/min. i have 4 injectors @ 573cc/min which nets 2293cc/min theoretical maximum aggregate flow. well, look at that--that lines up pretty damned well with how much fuel volume i'd actually need to net my desired afr at peak air mass, and sure enough in all my logs my idc is just about 100% right at peak power.

i can go out to my car RIGHT NOW, find a couple of hundred yards of road, hit 25psi mrp with a 73psi base fuel pressure, and not see a dangerous lean condition. why? because the rail pressure rises to 98psi, and the pump is still able to supply the required 34gal/hr or so at that pressure and supply voltage.

would a single walbro hold up rail pressure if i was using 1000cc injectors at 85% idc instead of 420s at 100% idc? judging by the numbers, no it would not. however, that is NOT a function of an internal pressure relief so much as it is a function of the volumetric capacity of the pump itself.

does this internal pressure relief valve make that much difference in terms of how well the pump is able to overcome high output pressure? not in my opinion. you only need to look at the second derivative of the flow vs. pressure characteristic illustrated above. the first derivative is the slope, the second derivative the rate of change of slope. a true bypass valve would have a very large second derivative right at the cracking pressure. the one that is charted above barely bleeds off any flow at all. look what happens at 85psi: you see an extremely slight trend towards a higher (more negative) slope. if the bypass valve was really a bypass valve the second derivative would be very large, and the slope would be nearly infinite right at 85psi.

my 1st hand empirical evidence and datalogs, along with the walbro supplied pump flow vs. pressure characteristics, directly contradicts what 03whitegsr has stated earlier in this thread: "so we really couldn't get any more fuel out of the current setup because the fuel pressure maxed out right at 6 kg/cm^2, which is 85.2 PSI, right were they are expected to be maxed out at." so i will ask again to be shown ONE THING on that walbro-supplied chart that points to 85.2psi being the end of the road in terms of output pressure.

Are you really comparing A Diesel engine that does not even have an ignition system to my comment above? THat seems very odd to me that you would do that. What you seem to be talking about is a weak signal on the injection pump or problem with your pickup. My guess is that you guys are simply not attaching the pickup to the correct source on the Diesels. Hard to say. But Diesels really have no bearing. WHat does have bearing is me explaining why the signal is missing on the run in this thread and you believing that in my doing so has proven that you ran the tune into knock. :) As a result of that you are trying to show that the car was not knocking by saying that the dynojet will not lose magnetic pickup during knock.. THats silly. LOL

On Coil on plug or on Wire on plug ignition systems on Gas engines knock will cause a large load on the ignition system. During this time magnetic pick up is not possible. If the Dyno is set to RPM mode and not speed the signal to the dyno will be lost. Some systems actualy detect knock without the use of knock sensors. They detect the load or resistance required to spark gap the plug.

I first learned about this in the mid 90's when I ran one of the first Dynojet Motorcycle dynos. This was a hell of alot of work because Wide band AFR systems where not available. We had to tune the jets, emulsion tubes,slides and needles of the carbs by trial and error. Even when we went to far one way and caused the bikes to knock the pickup signal would be lost. A year later when Dynojet came out with the 248 dyno the shop purchased one. The first one in AZ and the only one on the west coast. The same signal loss happend on cars with that dyno. I have pretty much a continual tuning experience on dynos across the country for over 10 years. This happens even on Mustang dynos if used with the optional Maganetic pickup. This is why I never use it. I use the mustangs speed to RPM conversion system to figure RPM.

On your Blue line graph.. Go to the dynojet machine and change the lower portion of the graph to Speed and bingo the line will be whole. Try it and let us know. If this works you know the RPM pick up saw knock.

Oh and you where saying I was wrong. But I forgive you.. LOL

Clark


Clark, if this is the case can you please explain to me why on a perfectly stock diesel engine sometimes this exact dynojet loses the RPM? Diesels run on detonation and create far more engine noise because of the high voltage used to fire the injectors, it's common place to loose the signal.

We currently have two engineers on staff that have 25+ years experience with dyno tuning on dyno jets along with other dynos of the likes of mustangs, and superflows they say it's an inherent design flaw when running an inductive pickup on a coil on plug set up.

I'm interested to know more on your theory, and why it varies from what they think.

*I'm not saying your wrong, i'm just trying to learn from what you've seen.

good thing you got rid of the wing, that thing might have taken off!!

Are you really comparing A Diesel engine that does not even have an ignition system to my comment above? THat seems very odd to me that you would do that. What you seem to be talking about is a weak signal on the injection pump or problem with your pickup. My guess is that you guys are simply not attaching the pickup to the correct source on the Diesels. Hard to say. But Diesels really have no bearing. WHat does have bearing is me explaining why the signal is missing on the run in this thread and you believing that in my doing so has proven that you ran the tune into knock. :) As a result of that you are trying to show that the car was not knocking by saying that the dynojet will not lose magnetic pickup during knock.. THats silly. LOL

On Coil on plug or on Wire on plug ignition systems on Gas engines knock will cause a large load on the ignition system. During this time magnetic pick up is not possible. If the Dyno is set to RPM mode and not speed the signal to the dyno will be lost. Some systems actualy detect knock without the use of knock sensors. They detect the load or resistance required to spark gap the plug.

I first learned about this in the mid 90's when I ran one of the first Dynojet Motorcycle dynos. This was a hell of alot of work because Wide band AFR systems where not available. We had to tune the jets, emulsion tubes,slides and needles of the carbs by trial and error. Even when we went to far one way and caused the bikes to knock the pickup signal would be lost. A year later when Dynojet came out with the 248 dyno the shop purchased one. The first one in AZ and the only one on the west coast. The same signal loss happend on cars with that dyno. I have pretty much a continual tuning experience on dynos across the country for over 10 years. This happens even on Mustang dynos if used with the optional Maganetic pickup. This is why I never use it. I use the mustangs speed to RPM conversion system to figure RPM.

On your Blue line graph.. Go to the dynojet machine and change the lower portion of the graph to Speed and bingo the line will be whole. Try it and let us know. If this works you know the RPM pick up saw knock.

Oh and you where saying I was wrong. But I forgive you.. LOL

Clark

I'm sorry you (or possibly your ego :eek: ) believe that I was saying you were wrong, although I appreciate the forgiveness!!:D I simply was trying to learn, fortunately you and Pavlo taught me something about ignitions.

On the diesel truck we connect to the correct line feeding the injector. However we still lose timing signal. An injector circuit in a diesel doesn't have the same effect as the ignition coils in a car (which would explain why we are able to get a signal at all), yet because of the noise in the engine bay we still get interuptions on the coil. This is a large reason why the Superflow, and the Mustang we have here are the "preffered" dynos.

I think if you had been present and examined the plugs, and seen the tune on the car you would more than likely agree that the problem was with the pickup, and not caused by knock.

I will look at the map, and let you know what happens (with Mitch's permission of course).

actually, it is not apparent at all. :lol:

either a bypass is sized to bypass the full output of the pump, or it's not. if it's not, then it really has no consequence, because by definition it will be unable to clamp the output pressure to a predetermined value.



and this is different from every fuel pump installed in every car in which way?

of course every pump will see volume flow drop as output pressure rises.
of course if you outflow the pump then the pressure will drop.
of course if your rail pressure is dropping from too high a flow rate at too high a pressure you have to compensate for that in other ways.

i don't know why this is so hard to understand: there is NOTHING about the high pressure 255lph pumps that limits their output pressure to <85psi. are you still claiming that the internal bypass valve does so? if you are, explain this:

http://autoperformanceengineering.com/pics/hp255lph.jpg

the fact that a hp255lph walbro CAN and WILL make more than 85psi rail pressure stares you right in the face.

i can tell you that at full tilt my engine is eating about 300g/s of air, and runs 11.5:1 afr. that means 26.1g/s fuel. let's use a specific gravity of 0.72 for the gas. that nets us 26.1/0.72 = 36.23cc/s = 2173.9cc/min = 130435cc/hr = 130l/hr = 34gal/hr.

i can reverse check these numbers too: oem wrx blue injectors are 440cc/min. i have increased fuel pressure from 43psi to 73psi. 73/43 = 1.698, sqrt(1.698) = 1.303 which is the scale factor. 1.303 * 440cc/min = 573.3cc/min. i have 4 injectors @ 573cc/min which nets 2293cc/min theoretical maximum aggregate flow. well, look at that--that lines up pretty damned well with how much fuel volume i'd actually need to net my desired afr at peak air mass, and sure enough in all my logs my idc is just about 100% right at peak power.

i can go out to my car RIGHT NOW, find a couple of hundred yards of road, hit 25psi mrp with a 73psi base fuel pressure, and not see a dangerous lean condition. why? because the rail pressure rises to 98psi, and the pump is still able to supply the required 34gal/hr or so at that pressure and supply voltage.

would a single walbro hold up rail pressure if i was using 1000cc injectors at 85% idc instead of 420s at 100% idc? judging by the numbers, no it would not. however, that is NOT a function of an internal pressure relief so much as it is a function of the volumetric capacity of the pump itself.

does this internal pressure relief valve make that much difference in terms of how well the pump is able to overcome high output pressure? not in my opinion. you only need to look at the second derivative of the flow vs. pressure characteristic illustrated above. the first derivative is the slope, the second derivative the rate of change of slope. a true bypass valve would have a very large second derivative right at the cracking pressure. the one that is charted above barely bleeds off any flow at all. look what happens at 85psi: you see an extremely slight trend towards a higher (more negative) slope. if the bypass valve was really a bypass valve the second derivative would be very large, and the slope would be nearly infinite right at 85psi.

my 1st hand empirical evidence and datalogs, along with the walbro supplied pump flow vs. pressure characteristics, directly contradicts what 03whitegsr has stated earlier in this thread: "so we really couldn't get any more fuel out of the current setup because the fuel pressure maxed out right at 6 kg/cm^2, which is 85.2 PSI, right were they are expected to be maxed out at." so i will ask again to be shown ONE THING on that walbro-supplied chart that points to 85.2psi being the end of the road in terms of output pressure.

You know, I really don't want to argue this with you. If you're happy running the pump to that point that's great. Neither myself nor the owner of this car would be. Here's a modified diagram for your enjoyment!!:banana:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/Liberty2000rs/hp255lph2.jpg

*DISCLAIMER, this is in no way meant to hurt feelings or imply that my e-weener is larger than anyone elses, it is for entertainment purposes only!! :lol:

*DISCLAIMER, this is in no way meant to hurt feelings or imply that my e-weener is larger than anyone elses, it is for entertainment purposes only!! :lol:

But it is bigger! My e-wang is much smaller than yours, but my photo-wang is much larger and whiter.

now this thread is getting somewhere :lol:

You make my car look like a weekend job! Very nice.

That is going to be so much fun to drive.. a real PITA to tune and maintain but it will be worth it. Thats just amazing, who designed the intake manifold it doesnt look that pretty but with that big turbo and ported heads its going to work great.

Good Luck at teh track!

wow...yea sick fab work!

awesome! cant wait to see videos!
-E

You know, I really don't want to argue this with you.

thanks for being a grown up and admitting that walbro high pressure pumps have absolutely no limitations running at pressures higher than 85psi, contrary to your original assertion, and bandwagoned by 03whitegsr.

thanks for being a grown up and admitting that walbro high pressure pumps have absolutely no limitations running at pressures higher than 85psi, contrary to your original assertion, and bandwagoned by 03whitegsr.

I don't need to say anything more, this statement shows exactly why I don't want to argue with you, it's simply a waste of time.

If you read in the first paragraph on the blog it tells you that base fuel was bumped to 60psi. The walbros are rated to but not beyond 85psi. Stock base fuel pressure is around 43psi. This is why the pressure wasn't bumped any further.

so you're standing by that, then?

the fuel pressure maxed out right at 6 kg/cm^2, which is 85.2 PSI, right were they are expected to be maxed out at.

quoted for posterity of misinformation.

thanks for being a grown up and admitting that walbro high pressure pumps have absolutely no limitations running at pressures higher than 85psi, contrary to your original assertion, and bandwagoned by 03whitegsr.

Are you standing by this??

Truly you should go back to your world of 350whp and 12.9's I think that is a better place for you.

Well at this point I have to say that experience in this is always the best thing, and if Clark has been working on dynojets for 10 years then it is probably what is really going on, as far as I know a knock event and a misfire are very similar in the fact of some kind of ignition interruption do to how the spark energy is loaded in those events. My bet is that the missing parts on the dyno graph are do to misfire and not knock because we were reading the plugs with a spark plug inspection lighted magnifying glass and there was no signs of detonation on runs that had dropped the timing signal! I don't know maybe I just have some kind of complex with the word "detonation". Have I learned thus far??? Yes I believe that the next trip to the dyno will be more productive (which is a good thing because I believe the first trip to the dyno was a great success) and the car felt like an animal on the road. Any info gained about how to make the car make more HP reliably is a great thing.



ride5000

As far as the fuel pumps I am going to stick with the ideal of going with a larger injector and not pushing the pumps to there absolute limit, I like to keep most of my parts at 80% or less than what they can 100% handle, over engineering is not a bad thing.. I see were you are going and I am glad that your pump can keep up with your set-up. I am sure you can see that underneath the hoods our cars are completely different. I can assure you that by raising the base pressure on my pumps would not have worked do to the fuel demands of the HP that the car was making they really did hit a wall at 85PSI and the fuel pressure would no longer raise with manifold pressure at a 1:1 ratio. This left us with having to add more than expected injector pulse width to give us the fuel that we needed when the fuel pressure was above 85PSI, this drove the injector duty cycle to with in a couple of counts away from 100%.

Your question was does the 255 still flow fuel above 85PSI the answer is yes. Does it flow it the way we would really like????? For me the answer is no that is why I am going to a larger injector.

Are you standing by this??

Truly you should go back to your world of 350whp and 12.9's I think that is a better place for you.

obviously all pumps have limitations. tell me that your whole argument isn't based on refuting the statement that "walbro high pressure pumps have absolutely no limitations running at pressures higher than 85psi."

i've generously allowed you the opportunity to attempt to save face as you completely reiterate what i've already said with respect to the effect of the bypass valve on a hp walbro. if you reread carefully, you'll note i never said the bypass didn't exist, and that i've already pointed out the very minimal effects of the bypass on the flow vs. pressure characteristic. you do have my apology for using calculus terms. i didn't know i was speaking over your head.

i'll break it down, using little words, big print, and simple terms for you:

hp walbros don't "max out" at 85.2psi.

Your question was does the 255 still flow fuel above 85PSI the answer is yes. Does it flow it the way we would really like????? For me the answer is no that is why I am going to a larger injector.

suby44, thanks for putting your ego to the side for a moment as we actually talk tech.

i appreciate your answer and agree wholeheartedly. in this case, i feel the same way you do.. to get more rail pressure, more pump capacity is needed. in most cases a dual pump setup is more trouble than it's worth, and there are other issues that must be dealt with when raising rail pressure to very high levels--principally the ability of the solenoid return spring to shut off the injector against that pressure.

to that end i can only offer the first hand experience that i've tested rail pressures up to 35 over oem--so 78psi static--at boost up to 28psi. the oem wrx denso injectors were fine. the pump, on the other hand, was unable to supply the flow i needed at that pressure. i saw this in the logs as richer afrs everywhere but full load. so you see, i have seen first hand exactly what you're speaking of. at this point there are only 3 options: more injector, more pump volume, or more voltage to the pump.

on a personal note, if i were you, and 03whitegsr and/or liberty2000rs were representatives of my shop, or connected to it in any way (as they seem to be) i would make sure that they were very careful about what they say and how they say it. there are those of us who practice what we preach and are not unwilling to call out misinformation (or information phrased in such a way as to invite misinterpretation) for what it is.

congrats on a nice build.

ken

Thanks Ken, I too am glad I'm not associated with your shop........

thanks for being a grown up and admitting that walbro high pressure pumps have absolutely no limitations running at pressures higher than 85psi, contrary to your original assertion, and bandwagoned by 03whitegsr.

Thanks Ken, I too am glad I'm not associated with your shop........

some day, you'll learn the delicate art of tact.

for now, just concentrate on learning to keep your mouth shut so you don't hurt someone else's business and livelihood.

: points at turbo : YES! :banana:
There it is.

some day, you'll learn the delicate art of tact.

for now, just concentrate on learning to keep your mouth shut so you don't hurt someone else's business and livelihood.


Hey Ken, guess what, there is no business in this thread. This car was built by an enthusiast in his garage by himself with the help of some friends!!

It's so funny for me to see that not only are you arrogant, you're also a hypocrite. I stand by what I said in my original post, and funny thing is after Suby44 agreed with you and explained exactly what Mike and I were trying to point out, you thank him for talking "tech" and your ego continues to insult people who clearly understand the situation at hand far better than yourself.

This is exactly why I said I don't want to argue with you. It's not worth the time. I'm sure you'll have some response to try and put me down after you read this, so just know this will be my last response to anything you have to say.

Thanks for your slander.

-Rob-

Hey Ken, guess what, there is no business in this thread. This car was built by an enthusiast in his garage by himself with the help of some friends!!

It's so funny for me to see that not only are you arrogant, you're also a hypocrite. I stand by what I said in my original post, and funny thing is after Suby44 agreed with you and explained exactly what Mike and I were trying to point out, you thank him for talking "tech" and your ego continues to insult people who clearly understand the situation at hand far better than yourself.

This is exactly why I said I don't want to argue with you. It's not worth the time. I'm sure you'll have some response to try and put me down after you read this, so just know this will be my last response to anything you have to say.

Thanks for your slander.

-Rob-

rob, my dear boy--slander is defamation in a fleeting form, such as verbal.

here we are talking about written communication, in which case it's called libel.

remember, libel rhymes with bible, and the bible is written. that way you won't forget.

I havta say when it comes down to these big turboed STi and Evo, In the STi, it seen like there is alot more room to work with than the Evo. I was looking at the AMS Evo with the big GT42R turbo set up, looks like every inch is fulled with parts. Looking at the STi w/ the GT42R turbo look plenty rooms left for more stuff.

thanks for being a grown up and admitting that walbro high pressure pumps have absolutely no problems running at pressures higher than 85psi, contrary to your original assertion, and bandwagoned by 03whitegsr.

........

liberty, 'higher' doesn't mean anything from 85 to infinity psi. it just means that the walbro's limit is higher than 85psi.

Ride5000, what exactly do you know about building a 680 WHP Subaru again?

Were you there while we dyno tested the car?

Ok, once again, yes! I FULLY stand by my comment that the pumps were maxed out at 85 PSI.

Now, as for tact, you really should learn some. First off, you attacked what I had to say about the pumps being maxed out. Kind of funny since that IS a fact that you CAN NOT possibly argue because you know NOTHING about the matter and were NOT there.

TACT is not jumping into a thread of enthusiasts that managed to topple the STI HP record for a non-nitrous motor and trying to pass judgment on those involved in the build and implying you could do better.

TACT is not talking about things you have NO CLUE about, such as the three of us being associated with any shop. We’re just a couple friends that will gladly pave the way for others and offer the problems encountered along the way to those that are willing to listen.

After all is said and done, the three of us believe there is LOTS of room for improvement on this car. The difference between constructive criticism and what you are doing is quite substantial. While we appreciate constructive criticism, I honestly can not stand “toppers” and “haters” like yourself. Honestly, until the day you post numbers that are equally impressive, I will brush over your posts and likely never bother reading them, because honestly, here you are going off about how much you know and how god damn smart you are, when all you are really doing is making your self look like a damn fool for speaking about things you have NO IDEA about.

NOW. OUT OF RESPECT FOR Suby44, this matter between you, liberty200rs, and I is finished. I have sent you a PM with what I really think on the matter. Feel free to get up in arms with me in the PM. I'll welcome a reply to anything of interest in those PMs. But you better pack a lunch and bring some math books because I'll turn numbers on your ass all day...

liberty, 'higher' doesn't mean anything from 85 to infinity psi. it just means that the walbro's limit is higher than 85psi.

I completely agree, they still can function above 85psi where the bypass opens, just not in the situation we were faced with, a situation which showed LIMITATIONS.

Go Mike go!!!!!!!!

i would be so pissed if this was my car and i spent all the money and i had lag like that, also i would expect more HP. nice setup, shouldve bought a evo tho.

liberty, 'higher' doesn't mean anything from 85 to infinity psi. it just means that the walbro's limit is higher than 85psi.

since we're all computer geeks here....think of it like a CPU. if a CPU is rated at 1GHz, it doesn't mean it only goes at that speed. you can overclock it to 1.2GHz. is it the smart thing to do? not always.

basically you're pushing things to their limits.

i think if Walbro, the manufacturer of said fuel pump, rates their own pump for 85+psi, i would stick with that. i'm sure they've done more flow/pressure testing than we can imagine.

can you guys keep this "fuel pump" argument thru PMs? i'd like to learn more about the car, and less about the physics on your stove. :p

i would be so pissed if this was my car and i spent all the money and i had lag like that, also i would expect more HP. nice setup, shouldve bought a evo tho.

why? how many 42R STis are out there that you know of to make you think there should be more HP???? :rolleyes:

and out of curiosity, can you post a link to a dynograph of an evo with a 42R so we can compare the lag?

Thanks Bunot.

i would be so pissed if this was my car and i spent all the money and i had lag like that, also i would expect more HP. nice setup, shouldve bought a evo tho.

did you even read the first line in the thread

"Still a work in progress but I am happy with the results thus far!!!!!"

Don't get me wrong I love evo's, but if I had one I would be just another EVO with a 42R. Nothin wrong with tryin somthing new!!! would you agree??

Impressive work

In the world of auto modifications you have the talented few who's passion for speed and determination lead them to create something unique and set new ground

and . . . .

on the other hand

are the arm chair experts who like to comment on the internet but who never seem to accomplish any of their goals

Clearly this gentleman is one of the former

Keep up the good work and hope to see you out at the track some time !

(PS - did you craft that fmic also?)

since we're all computer geeks here....think of it like a CPU. if a CPU is rated at 1GHz, it doesn't mean it only goes at that speed. you can overclock it to 1.2GHz.good analogy

i think if Walbro, the manufacturer of said fuel pump, rates their own pump for 85+psi, i would stick with that.
Subaru sold me a car rated at 227HP. I should stick to that.


basically you're pushing things to their limits.
yup

Impressive work

In the world of auto modifications you have the talented few who's passion for speed and determination lead them to create something unique and set new ground

and . . . .

on the other hand

are the arm chair experts who like to comment on the internet but who never seem to accomplish any of their goals

Clearly this gentleman is one of the former

Keep up the good work and hope to see you out at the track some time !

(PS - did you craft that fmic also?)

Thank you, I appreciate the compliment

I am planning on coming out to most of the west coast NHRA national events with my car in the 07 season it would be fun to meet up and run another 42R car if I can figure out how to make this car go down the track but I am sure that will be a learning curve all by it's self!

The FMIC is just an off the shelf unit that allready had endtanks, but it seems to work OK.

so the real question... whats the time frame on these new injectors? so we can see some final numbers and video of this thing!!! i would love to see a video of a highway pull etc

i wanna hear it!

I have learned that Gt42 is a very intoxicating and steep learning curve

My brief summary

Small Gt42 - Damm that * * * pulls hard

Large Gt42 - OUCH - time for more R & D . . . . it never ends !

Awesome work, very well done car.

03whitegsr, I would say you def have some tech knowledge but I would tone it down a bit cause the very first posts I saw you make I was thinking you may get banned just cause you seem very intelligent but have the potential to flip on someone, haha, I am not attacking you in anway just seen some others come and go.:)

i am not friends with ride5000 in real life but in general he has good and knowledgeable things to say on here from what I have seen, i think there is a break down in communication here.

I think that whole discussion distracted from what this is, and that is a great car, you should ask to have it cleaned up so the focus is on the car and start another thread in a diff forum on the topic.

Again, great work on the car looks sweet. Looking forward to more plots and info.

Ben

I'm a strong voiced person and sometimes it gets me out there in a very argument based manner, even when I don't mean it to.

I'll be fair; some friends call me "Mike the Mouth" because I am so strong voiced. I keep trying to be the whole "walk softly and carry a big stick" type of guy, but it often turns out as more of a "bull in a China cabinet" type of thing. I get started and I just can't stop.

Anyway, sorry for the misadventure in fuel pump land.

Back to the topic at hand, one baddass Subaru built by your average (albeit pale) Joe. The only tan this kid got in the last year was from his TIG... :D

Subaru sold me a car rated at 227HP. I should stick to that.



if you plan on driving that car well past 100K miles with no problems, then yes you should.

that's why there's this phrase...."you pay to play." ;)

if you plan on driving that car well past 100K miles with no problems, then yes you should.

that's why there's this phrase...."you pay to play." ;)

You gotta pay the cost to be the boss!:lol:

Wow, I am very impressed with your hard work and dedication! Keep it up, we need more pioneering like this! Congrats on your success! :D

Why not go dual feed injectors and add like 750cc on top of the 1000cc. With 1600cc injectors your idle is going to be hard to tune in unless you plan on having an idle of 1200rpms or more.

I could be wrong though.

very impressive.. I'm still suprised though that nobody is offering this in kit for for us though... Are any of the usual suspects out there listening???

Nice work. Good luck!

Why not go dual feed injectors and add like 750cc on top of the 1000cc. With 1600cc injectors your idle is going to be hard to tune in unless you plan on having an idle of 1200rpms or more.

I could be wrong though.

I think you are completely right, however doing a dual feed injector setup would require a lot more fabrication. I don't think Mitch has any problem idling the car at 1200rpm, which may need to be the case, it may not as the hydra can command a pretty low pulse width.

The car has pretty much made the transition from a daily driven street car to a street driven track car, so idling I don't think is going to be a big worry.

Why not go dual feed injectors and add like 750cc on top of the 1000cc. With 1600cc injectors your idle is going to be hard to tune in unless you plan on having an idle of 1200rpms or more.

I could be wrong though.

my idle is at 1100rpms, daily driven. not really a big deal to me.

what a sweet dog!!!

I think you are completely right, however doing a dual feed injector setup would require a lot more fabrication. I don't think Mitch has any problem idling the car at 1200rpm, which may need to be the case, it may not as the hydra can command a pretty low pulse width.

The car has pretty much made the transition from a daily driven street car to a street driven track car, so idling I don't think is going to be a big worry.

Can't you get APS tumblers with two injector bosses?

Ben

beautiful dyno graphs

Can't you get APS tumblers with two injector bosses?

Ben

why yes you can and you can also get the injector bungs from atp to weld on the intake runners too. but then you need one more set of injuctors, one more set of rails, one more fuel pressure regulater, more lines ect.....

Nice work Mitch, you'll have to take me for a ride some time.

Oh, and I have yet to ride in your's or Rob's cars.

Brandon

why yes you can and you can also get the injector bungs from atp to weld on the intake runners too. but then you need one more set of injuctors, one more set of rails, one more fuel pressure regulater, more lines ect.....


Ding ding ding ding:D The 1600's are just a lot less work.

I didn't know that APS made tumbler valve bodies with dual bosses in them. That's really cool. Are they already gutted, or do they have the butterfly in them still?

Mitch probably is aware of them.
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/images/stitdi_01_components1.jpg
These things look pretty sweet

Nice work Mitch, you'll have to take me for a ride some time.

Oh, and I have yet to ride in your's or Rob's cars.

Brandon


Haha, I sometimes wonder if you're still alive!!!! It's not surprising that you haven't had a ride in either of our cars as both have been torn apart for, well.................... a while :o

Yeah, I'm alive. But absolutely no time to ever do anything, let alone hang out with my friends.

Damn you responsibility.:mad: :lol:

Im getting sick just thinking how that car must pull!:eek: :eek: :eek: :disco:

Ding ding ding ding:D The 1600's are just a lot less work.

I didn't know that APS made tumbler valve bodies with dual bosses in them. That's really cool. Are they already gutted, or do they have the butterfly in them still?

Mitch probably is aware of them.
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/images/stitdi_01_components1.jpg
These things look pretty sweet

they are gutted but still need some cleaning up i hear.

Im getting sick just thinking how that car must pull!:eek: :eek: :eek: :disco:

I`am sick thinking of how much it cost:lol:

that is absolutely insane. i can't wait to see the final product.

I didn't know that APS made tumbler valve bodies with dual bosses in them. That's really cool. Are they already gutted, or do they have the butterfly in them still?

They are a completely new cast part, not modified. Why they would put butterflies (increasing cost) in would be beyond me.

Plus as you can see in the picture, there is no hole for the TGV controller.

It's kind of strange that they would cast them and include the provisions for the TGV though. I don't think any body interested in staged injection would want the butterfly valves in there.

My question though, why would you put secondary injectors that close to the valve anyway? You could put the secondary injectors further up the runner and get better atomization at high RPM, where the secondary set would be used the most. Then you could toss in some 450s near the valve for good idle and drivability, and then add some 1600s up the runner to make the power.

But even then, you have a significant change over point where the 1600s turn on and that's the whole issue with staged injection. It is extremely difficult to get a smooth transition.

From what a few friends have said, a good tune on some 1600s will idle about as well as a moderate tune on 1000s. Yes, you can get 1000s to idle better, but the 1600s are good enough for a drag/street car. Now if it was a daily driver, staged injection MIGHT be the better option, provided you have an ECU that deals with staged injection well. Motec for example has some coding set up specifically for staged injection that helps avoid a harsh change in A/Fs at the turn on point.

The problem stems from the fact that an injector can't be turned on with an infinitesimally small increment. It has to be turned on enough to insure a solid opening and closing pattern. This is right around .8-1ms. On 1600s, that quite a bit of fuel still and you have to essentially pull fuel out of the smaller injector at the same time to avoid a grossly rich A/F condition at the turn on point. Now you have a change in atomization happening as well, since the 1600s at a low pulse width probably don't have the sweetest spray pattern. As you can see, there is a lot to work around to try and get a smooth transition.

Myself, I'd rather just have a little richer idle at a higher RPM and then have smooth drivability with no switch over point. But the ability to put the injector further up the runner is one attractive quality to the staged injection.


As for money invested, I wouldn't be surprised if the car has less in it then a lot of the GT35R cars around here. That is the advantage to doing your own work, you aren't paying a shop $75 an hour to build and install parts.;)

Wow... your setup is insane. Is it hard to get traction pushing that much power? One day i hope to trick out a car like you did. How loud is that tbe?? Great job, get some track vids up for show!!! :banana:

Ding ding ding ding:D The 1600's are just a lot less work.

I didn't know that APS made tumbler valve bodies with dual bosses in them. That's really cool. Are they already gutted, or do they have the butterfly in them still?

Mitch probably is aware of them.
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/images/stitdi_01_components1.jpg
These things look pretty sweet

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/images/apsfrp_02_on_engine.jpg

APS's tumbler deletes will have the Bosses for the secondary injectors, but the wholes are not fully machined out. They do this so when you buy them with just a single fuel rail setup, your not having a exposed hole. So when you go to a secondary fuel rail, the tumblers will need to be machined.

BTW, Congrats on the build guys. I'm excited to see what she does. A little bird told me at 85mph this thing will spin all 4. Thats a powerfull car ;)

Nick
RallySport Direct
www.rallysportdirect.com

A little bird told me at 85mph this thing will spin all 4. Thats a powerfull car ;)

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Lets just say it is nice to have both hands on the stearing wheel when boost comes on in 4th..;)

Lets just say it is nice to have both hands on the stearing wheel when boost comes on in 4th..;)

okay.. that's enough... Video footage or Barn!!!!:banana:

I would really want to see a loooong video of your car!

Still a work in progress but I am happy with the results thus far!!!!! :devil:

http://iwsti.com/blogs/007STI/

Make sure to check out the link for dyno charts and photos!!:banana:
This thing is unreal. I live in Utah and I have never seen it, have you taken it out to the track yet?

Lets just say it is nice to have both hands on the stearing wheel when boost comes on in 4th..;)

That's terrifying..

so the 684WHP/ 572WTQ was made with only 10 psi?

so the 684WHP/ 572WTQ was made with only 10 psi?

that has to be a typo:)

No, 28 PSI on the hydra.

Lets just say it is nice to have both hands on the stearing wheel when boost comes on in 4th..;)

probably 5th too!!

probably 5th too!!

If that is the case, then I have to say that it's think kind of power that i've been looking for all along! Its such a shame that the 42R won't fit the engine bay without re-arranging the entire area :(

i wonder where one can find pics of a GT40R next to a 42R....

If that is the case, then I have to say that it's think kind of power that i've been looking for all along! Its such a shame that the 42R won't fit the engine bay without re-arranging the entire area :(

i wonder where one can find pics of a GT40R next to a 42R....


Here you go man. I don't have any in car shots, but the turbos in this picture are (from left to right) 42R, 40R, and 35R.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/Liberty2000rs/GT354042R.jpg

some video or sound clip of how it sounds would be great :)

I love that pic of all 3. And people think the 35r is a big turbo :lol:

some video or sound clip of how it sounds would be great :)

Just keep a med kit next to you for when your ears start to bleed :eek:

Do you have the same pic reversed.....so we can see the exhaust housings?

Just keep a med kit next to you for when your ears start to bleed :eek:
Yeah, the 4" exhaust, external wastegate dump, and open ported shroud made for some SERIOUS noise in a 15'x25' room. My ears were ringing for a couple hours afterwards. I normally wera hearing protection when I tune cars ont he dyno, but I forgot it this time.

I was also a little high from the fuel we were using.:banana: *even though it was leaded and I probably knocked a few years off my life*

Yeah, the 4" exhaust, external wastegate dump, and open ported shroud made for some SERIOUS noise in a 15'x25' room. My ears were ringing for a couple hours afterwards. I normally wera hearing protection when I tune cars ont he dyno, but I forgot it this time.

I was also a little high from the fuel we were using.:banana: *even though it was leaded and I probably knocked a few years off my life*

Whew, that was the worst high ever, good thing you got a 3hour break.... Mitch and I were toasted.

Do you have the same pic reversed.....so we can see the exhaust housings?

Sorry man, I don't.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: im speechless too much power

Here you go man. I don't have any in car shots, but the turbos in this picture are (from left to right) 42R, 40R, and 35R.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/Liberty2000rs/GT354042R.jpg

Holy cow... Even the GT40R looks like a baby compared to this beast...

I wish some companies could come out with a kit to fit this beast onto the car :eek:

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what is the 42R rated for HP-wise?

I love that pic of all 3. And people think the 35r is a big turbo :lol:

relatively speaking compared to stock, it is... But these other turbos are just in another ballgame to be honest.. Hell, these are Supra-sized turbos!

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but what is the 42R rated for HP-wise?


850-1000 depending on the hot side you chose.

850-1000 depending on the hot side you chose.

thats quite a jump from the 40r which is just a 750hp turbo....it really irks me that the 42r wont fit as easily as a 35r fits

That 42R is Big, it could probably take both my VF22 and 18G and beat them to the ground. LoL

This is just the type of turbo that you use an engine lift to pull the turbo out and then Heman the engine out when you are working on the car. You'd hate to strain your back lifting that bad boy out of the engine bay.

The engine is really just there to get the turbo spinning, after that, you just use the thrust from the exhaust to power the car...

FYI, you can get a 4094R now from ATP which has the 94mm compressor wheel from the 42 in the 40R housing, not sure if its a good match but it is an option for those looking for more air flow out of the 40R sized turbo.

Ben

FYI, you can get a 4094R now from ATP which has the 94mm compressor wheel from the 42 in the 40R housing, not sure if its a good match but it is an option for those looking for more air flow out of the 40R sized turbo.

Ben

hmm... where was it that i was reading that this was a rather surge-happy setup?

I've always mapped that turbo out for a 2.0L simply because that's what I'm into. On a 2.0L, it would likely be surge happy. Mapping it out for a 2.5L where I would expect it to come into boost, it would be a pretty capable turbo that with the right turbine housing likely would not have issues with surge.

I would give the overall power advantage to the GT4294R, but if you can't fit the GT42, then that GT4094R would likely be my second choice.

Once again though, the GT4094R has a 67mm inducer and IS NOT THE SAME COMPRESSOR WHEEL AS THE GT4294R.

Very nice car man must sound effing awesome. Couple questions,
Do you have any heavy engine noise?
If so do you get much faulse knock with the hydra?

Well done man!

The adverage knock voltage is a little higher than what I usually see on other subaru's but do to the external oil pump beeing bolted right to the block I believe that this is were the extra noise is coming from.. Also on the hydra the end user has full control of the the knock threshold voltage. We were just keeping a real close eye on the spark plugs between each dyno run and then adjusting the knock threshold voltage to this car's peticular needs.

That 42R is Big, it could probably take both my VF22 and 18G and beat them to the ground. LoL

Yes, yes indeed. :banana:

just out of curiosity..how much does a 42r weigh?

kind of random I know

Shipping weight is 35lbs :)

35R is 20lbs in comparison.

Where I can get them 1600cc injectors / Who sells them????

Thanks

top speed on the Newfie?
sound clips when you get home and you're met at the door?
"big" turbo not looking so big in photo next to dog's head

by the way, last week, Brown's Canyon, 5th gear, lost traction. stock wagon!
amazing car. tastefully conservative appearance. beautiful dog. Robert

Where I can get them 1600cc injectors / Who sells them????

Thanks

Fuel Injector Clinic, www.fuelinjectorclinic.com

This car uses a top feed injector setup, and not your typical side feed STI injector.

top speed on the Newfie?
sound clips when you get home and you're met at the door?
"big" turbo not looking so big in photo next to dog's head

by the way, last week, Brown's Canyon, 5th gear, lost traction. stock wagon!
amazing car. tastefully conservative appearance. beautiful dog. Robert

The turbo next to the dog is actually a T-67, and I think she was about 4-months old at the time that picture was taken.

Her brother makes her look little, but she still runs the place, and is happy to let you know when wh wants a little attention with a rumbly bark. Total sweetheart though, i've never met a sweeter dog.

W 0 W !

That is some serious work, congrats!

Shipping weight is 35lbs :)

35R is 20lbs in comparison.

Thank you!:)

http://smiliesftw.com/x/jerkbowdown.gif

The adverage knock voltage is a little higher than what I usually see on other subaru's but do to the external oil pump beeing bolted right to the block I believe that this is were the extra noise is coming from.. Also on the hydra the end user has full control of the the knock threshold voltage. We were just keeping a real close eye on the spark plugs between each dyno run and then adjusting the knock threshold voltage to this car's peticular needs.

my bad i too hav the hydra just wondering if that was an issue maybe getting some faulse knock. Well done man i am at the red stage aiming for 500whp on race fuel and i think thats were it may end. If i can make it to the tens. Good luck with your future prospects;)

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/007-STi/bayley2-15-05018.jpg

.... speechless



what kind of dog is that?

Is there any way of getting sound/video clips? I'm dying to know what this thing sounds like.

Here you go man. I don't have any in car shots, but the turbos in this picture are (from left to right) 42R, 40R, and 35R.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b251/Liberty2000rs/GT354042R.jpg

I have turbo envy! I have a 35r and now it seems so puny. So when are you going to bring this down to a tuesday meet and give us some rides?! :devil:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e66/007-STi/bayley2-15-05018.jpg

.... speechless



what kind of dog is that?

She is a Newfoundland

cant wait to see some vids and pics of this thing totaly done!