after reading many threads on this topic could someone please post some type of faq or basic explanation on this swap. it seem the proper way to do this mod is use a sti long block with the pistons than will give the proper c.ratio. or is using a thicker head gasket ok? (would a thicker HD GSK widen the engine as to cause other problems with timing belt etc. ?) also everyone refers to this set up as a stump pulling because it will run out of breath at 5500 rpms or so. if this is true what is the most economical way to remedy this. 264 cam alone or do you need new springs retainers as such. i am looking for a cost effective way to replace a short block on my 2005 wrx keeping as many oem parts as i can and with out the project snow balling into thousands of dollars....... thanks in advance

$1500 Sti shortblock
$250 Overhaul gasket kit for 2.0
$50 Sti OEM head gaskets
$75 timing belt
$80 water pump
$80 oil pump
$8 thermostat
$100 for misc fluids.... oil. brake cleaner, coolant, etc


Asssuming you didn't overheat your heads and warp them. If money is tight reuse stock heads/cams/valvetrain (if they are in good shape) Check them with a straight edge to see if you can save some money by not machining them.

In short, take everything off, clean it, and inspect it. Then go to town bolting it on the new block. If money was extremely tight, you could only buy the block and gaskets then reuse your old items. I would most definately not do that. You will have it apart, so replace the general stuff that are key components. Call it preventative maintenence if you will. No sense in redoing it again down the road because you skimped on the 80 bucks for a pump.

HG thickness only changes compression. Some will say OEM, some will say cometic. I used OEM and would never go any other route unless I was building a race engine that would see 30+psi. Compression should be dictated by internals not a gasket. OEM gasket will give you higher compression with the low end torque (which is amazing for daily driving). Some say that can lead to a detonation problem on pump gasoline. I don't agree with that. Just my 2 cents... I'm sure others will chime in disagreeing.

You will need a tune afterwards. Research info on the head gasket you are using regarding compression ratio. Inform your tuner and they can work with that.

Do lots of reading & research.

Fred Beans Subaru in PA has the 2.5 shortblock with all of the stuff in that list for less than $2100 shipped.

:lol: ask for Tristan in parts.

we heart jeremy and tristan :D

and yeah, listen to V8, i think he's got some experience with this... ;)

we heart jeremy and tristan :D

and yeah, listen to V8, i think he's got some experience with this... ;)

:( I forgot about Jeremy.

Yeah I keep gaining more and more. I'll be pulling mine back out for cams soon :)

stupid punks that blow up 2.0's with 100k miles on them.








:devil:

All I have to say is I do not heart yo yos that drive buicks.....:furious:

LOL, This is too funny. Tristan please tell me you get commission out of all this. Matt and I have sent a crap load of people to you. You need to be rewarded in some way. :)


Matt has pretty much got it alright when recommending swap info. STI head gasket will not be the cause of det. It's suspected that the thicker .051 cometic will. This is due to quence. But this topic is highly debated. It really doesnt matter which one you go with you will be fine with either one.

Good luck.

I reused everything on my hybrid. But I only had 25k on my 2.0 block.

STI head gasket will not be the cause of det. It's suspected that the thicker .051 cometic will. This is due to quence. But this topic is highly debated.

Can you elaborate more on this or point me in the right direction to learn more.

I was under the impression that the stock STi headgasket raised compression enough to make tuning it more difficult, but I'm still a n00b when it comes to stuff like this.

Wow. This thread really needs to get cleaned up on the nonsense because it ended with the first reply.

red92xblue. I am local and can point you in the right direction. PM me if you'd like.

Wow. great answers. I am not trying to cheap out on an engine build. i just want put together a nicely built streetable motor . using the original size turbo. To my thought process trying to match the OEM compression ratio is the proper way to do this hybrid. Is the Subaru factory compression ratio affected by emission concerns? Is a higher C.R. ok on 93 pump gas? What about the engine falling on its face after 5500 rpm. The wrx 2.0 pulls all the way to 7500 rpms. What does it take to get there with this type hybrid, with out going nuts on the valve train. By nuts i mean for example very tight valve springs will usually wear out a cam much faster. I want to know what it takes to build a well balanced hybrid. thanks again

Wow. great answers. I am not trying to cheap out on an engine build. i just want put together a nicely built streetable motor . using the original size turbo. To my thought process trying to match the OEM compression ratio is the proper way to do this hybrid. Is the Subaru factory compression ratio affected by emission concerns? Is a higher C.R. ok on 93 pump gas? What about the engine falling on its face after 5500 rpm. The wrx 2.0 pulls all the way to 7500 rpms. What does it take to get there with this type hybrid, with out going nuts on the valve train. By nuts i mean for example very tight valve springs will usually wear out a cam much faster. I want to know what it takes to build a well balanced hybrid. thanks again

-Higher compression is okay on 93 pump. You just have to tune it properly.

-If you are planning on running a td04 expect it to fall flat around 5500rpm. The turbo runs out of breath and the WG doesn't like to stay shut. If you want to run the little guy, look at getting an external wastegate.

-The cams will also limit you a bit. I've seen/built hybrids with the helix 264's. They seem to work out alright. I'm running the OEM heads/cams/TD04. My rev limiter is set to 6500. I will be replacing them with Crower 272s/Manley +1mm valvetrain (82lbs springs IIRC) when I get another chance to pull it back out. If it is a daily driver like mine, I wouldn't go any larger than 272 w/ reasonable springs. The bigger you go, the more idling issues you may have along with the loss of low-end.

Matt has pretty much got it alright when recommending swap info. STI head gasket will not be the cause of det. It's suspected that the thicker .051 cometic will. This is due to quence. But this topic is highly debated. It really doesnt matter which one you go with you will be fine with either one.


You have it backwards ;). Higher compressions ratios = lower detonation threshold. My understanding is that the thicker will allow you to run more boost & be a bit easier to tune. The thinner, OEM will give you more low-end power but you have to be a bit more cautious tuning. Either way both have made 500whp, so it's personal preference :lol:

thank you wedge for the offer to help and to drinkav8 for sharing your knowledge.

higher compression with all other things being equal will be more prone to detonate, but what the other guy was commenting on was quench, which is another large factor. going to a thicker head gasket moves the heads slightly farther out and affects the quench. i cant go into more detail than that because i dont know, but hopefully that at least points the convo in the right direction.
if you want to change compression i highly recommend going with a custom piston and keeping a stock head gasket. i am going with a custom je piston and a stock head gasket... thats really ideal in my mind.

thanx for the shopping list :D

thanx for the shopping list :D
+12345.

Hey V8, if you could pull it all apart and start all over, would it be worth the extra $40 to go for stock-thickness Sti headgaskets? I'm doing a hybrid with Crower 272's and valvespring kit, but trying to err on the side of better-than-OEM reliability. I already have ARP headstuds on it, and was close to replacing the rod bolts with ARP's also, but I'd like to keep the crankcase closed, if possible. Does the 2.0l overhaul kit include seals to work on the 2.5 block that are standard maintenance items (rear main seal, etc)?

Sorry for the double-post, but on the topic of over-the-top reliability, is the Cosworth oil pump worth the extra couple hundred dollars on a stock 7000 rev-limit, or do you think that the STi bottom-end would be capable of 7500-8000rpms? I don't mind spending a couple hundred to make a 450 or so whp engine that can last more than a few thousand miles.

good info thanx

Get the proper pistons for the proper CR if all you have access to is 91 octane. If you get 93 or 94 ALWAYS, then the stock STI pistons might be ok, with a VERY GOOD tune. I went with a Crawford S2 to lower the CR back to 8.2:1 (stock). Now I can run decent boost safely, or if nothing else, with peace of mind. Mind you, I am going with a VF37 so I do plan to run more boost.

Head gasket, definitely OEM. Cometics have been known to fail.

Cams... I stuck with stock WRX cams. I have been in some plenty fast WRX's and they pull really nice. These heads do not have to fall on their face. Relative to the bottom end, yes, but someone who knows how to put in the proper timing to redline and reduce boost before it starts pushing hot air will extract a lot out of these heads. Of course, all this depends on the turbo. These heads might not flow enough for really big turbos but something in the VF39/16g range, they will be fine. 20g... then you may want stage 1 cams. But if you're budget conscious, stick with the OEM cams.

In the end, you're probably just as well to get an STI LB and bolt the WRX intake manifold to it (See instructions on elementtuning.com website). Then you get the proper CR, better STI cams, all factory assembled with the reliability of the OEM pistons (aftermarket pistons do have some disadvantages... look int he piston FAQ). Then, when you get more money, put the STI manifold back on, hook up the AVCS and pick up a Hydra and now you have full STI power. In the long run, this will be a far better way to go. I've seen brand new STI LB's (with everything needed for a swap) go for as low as $4000... and trust us, no matter which way you decide to go, you will spend more than $4000.

JC

I've been reading this topic and many others with alot of attention...

I'm looking at a few high mileage WRX for the purpose of dropping a 2.5 block under and keeping everything close to stock(turbo, heads, intake until more $$ comes in) except a /Up-Pipe/downpipe/exhaust and a Hydra. Mind you, i'm not looking for insane top-end, I prefer a very strong mid-range(awesome for back roads in the winter, 3rd gear power out of corners).

Am I totally out of the track going that route or i'm heading the right way?

If you want awesome mid-range... Ditch the WRX heads and get an assembled STI LB, use the WRX intake manifold and the Hydra for controlling the AVCS.

Forgive a noob for asking, but can anyone provide some good links for further reading on the hybrid setup. I'm looking for a cost effective way to deal with a spun bearing in my 2.0L wrx in the event it's not covered under waranty. $2k sounds reasonable for a swap, although I haven't done one since my old chevy. I take it the advantage is higher power and a reliable bottom end with the disadvantage of higher rev power loss? Is there a book/manual to follow for the head swap with torque settings and valvetrain adjustments? Is aftermarket engine management required? UTEC, Accessport, or reflash? Perhaps a drivetrain from a wrecked sti is better?
Thanks for any info - I'm weighing my options here in NJ and I haven't used a tuner before.

$2k does not represent a reasonable swap cost. In all likelihood, you will need a new oil pump and gasket kit. With a $1500 short block, there is $2000 right there. EM... add at LEAST $500. Good tune, add at least $500. Using the TD04 you might get away with stock injectors but I would bet on at least pinks. Add $250-300. If you upgrade turbo, intercooler, etc., add more $$$. If you do the timing belt tensioner, timing belt itself, water pump, thermostat, etc., add another $500. Budget at least $200 for additional tools. Maybe more if you need an engine stand and engine hoist. Add another $100-200 for miscellaneous fluids, sealants fubarred hoses, etc. Also do the PCV valve while you're in there. Still with me? Or, get someone to do it all for you and pay about $1500 in labour. I also don't recommend using the OEM block, which will give you a high-ish CR motor. Using a built block to give the proper CR will add on another $1000. My swap with a crawford S2 block, WRX heads, STI TMIC, PINKS and a VF37 turbo just made 340 uncorrected wtq yesterday on a dynapack dyno at 3000 ft elevation. Mind, you, I'm now in for $9k. Doing this swap for $2000 is NOT possible.

you forgot about the money that goes toward the beer during the build

oh right. about $100.

Oh, and I almost forgot the $300 head decking and flywheel refinishing. I also forgot the replacement clutch... $200.

well if you can find a used 2.5 shortblock for under 1000 then id say thatd be your best bet. otherwise it WILL cost you more than 2k. which at that rate you might as well just start your own custom build. at least thats what i decided on.

+12345.

Hey V8, if you could pull it all apart and start all over, would it be worth the extra $40 to go for stock-thickness Sti headgaskets? I'm doing a hybrid with Crower 272's and valvespring kit, but trying to err on the side of better-than-OEM reliability. I already have ARP headstuds on it, and was close to replacing the rod bolts with ARP's also, but I'd like to keep the crankcase closed, if possible. Does the 2.0l overhaul kit include seals to work on the 2.5 block that are standard maintenance items (rear main seal, etc)?

Shoot me a PM, I can point you in right direction cost wise. I'm a bit confused with your HG question. EJ20 HG won't fit because of the increase in cylinder size. I used OEM STi, and it's kicking strong still at 17k. The overhaul kit comes with every thing imaginable, you probably won't use 1/3 of the gaskets.

As far as the crank case goes. I think there is a unspoken issue with crankcase ventilation. I'm helping a friend do his hybrid swap this week, and one next week. I think I want to try to tap the valve covers and run a extra breather line like the STi. From what I have seen personally with a few of these setups (including mine), oil likes to vanish slightly. I'm pretty sure it is due to ventilation setups on these hybrids.

I think the higher compression will make adding timing to the car a bit more difficult. We haven't tuned much of the timing yet on my new setup. I compression test it once a month, and it has never dropped.

Thanks, but is all that really necessary? There is another thread in the Built Motor Forum with a bunch of guys saying they have done this for ~$2k. I'm just looking for a stock replacement. Maybe I'll modify it later - maybe not.

well like i said before. the cheaper you can find the sti shortblock the cheaper it will be. if you manage to get a hold of a cheap enough shortblock then you can most definitely do it for around 2k...even if you had to replace the bearings and/or rings. Another idea is finding an RS shortblock and replacing the pistons with sti pistons. that may be cheaper as well.

Thanks, but is all that really necessary? There is another thread in the Built Motor Forum with a bunch of guys saying they have done this for ~$2k. I'm just looking for a stock replacement. Maybe I'll modify it later - maybe not.

Buying a used shortblock... well, you have to ask yourself why they are selling it.

As for using a new $1500 OEM block, the compression ratio will be high. Therefore tuning is also a must.

Also, oil pump and tensioner are very highly recommended.

New gaskets are a must.

Then there's tools, fluids and whatnot.

Oh, and head studs. DO NOT reuse the stock ones as they are stretch bolts.

That's all if you don't do any performance upgrades at all (besides tuning).

Unless you get a shortblock for $100, there is no way to do this for $2000, simple as that.

Even if you buy a used WRX shortlock, you're still probably looking at $2k, minimum.

All I'm trying to tell you is that the little stuff adds up.

the little stuff definitely adds up. but you can find shortblocks in decent condition. not all people sell used shortblocks because of defuncts. some people want to change shortblocks or have several shortblocks and want to get rid of one. I'd see keep your eyes peeled for a good deal.

Oh and head decking... I would at least budget for it, particularly if your original head gasket is what went kaput.

Oh, and head studs. DO NOT reuse the stock ones as they are stretch bolts.

Unless you get a shortblock for $100, there is no way to do this for $2000, simple as that.

Even if you buy a used WRX shortlock, you're still probably looking at $2k, minimum.

All I'm trying to tell you is that the little stuff adds up.

You can safely reuse headbolts ONCE.

Mine was all new for 2k, everything possible, including fluids. ;)

Oh and head decking... I would at least budget for it, particularly if your original head gasket is what went kaput.

Don't know if I would agree with that on stock internal block. Torque plate honing/decking/balancing/etc is not needed.

^^^If his heads are straight, then fine. However, it's likely they are warped if his head gasket was the problem to begin with. Particularly if the car overheated due to combustion gases getting into the coolant. This can also mess with the valve shim adjustments and he may need new shims for some valves. At $15 each, it's another cost to consider.

As for head bolts, why take the chance? Who wants to rip the damn thing out again because of a leaky head gasket? You don't need ARP's but you should at least use new OEM bolts.

If you did this for $2k, then you basically replaced very little (ok if the car is fairly new to begin with) and had most of the tools already. I ended up buying an engine stand, an impact gun, taps, drill bits, easy outs, sockets, cleaners, gasket maker, rags, anti-sieze, thread locker, feeler gauges, etc. Most DIY guys will also need to buy and engine hoist if they can't find one to borrow.

Also, did you get a tune? If not, are you confident you tune is safe? What gas are you using? What boost are you running? Have you looked at your knock correction values under high loads? The car could be pulling a lot of timing and if you don't log the ecu, one might never know it. One tank of bad gas and bye bye motor number 2, especially if the negative knock correctin is already maxed out. Not to be a fear monger here but I am trying to be realistic and let the poor chap know what he's getting into if he wants to do it right the first time. There is a lot involved.

It adds up, that's all I'm saying. And if you do it by the book and have a higher mileage car, there is simply no way to do it for $2k if you replace what SHOULD be replaced.

That's not to say you might not get lucky re-using everything, but again, why take the chance?

http://www.thekingofparts.com/servlet/Detail?no=48

http://www.thekingofparts.com/servlet/Detail?no=48

Again, parts... what about the tools, the head bolts, the decking, etc., and most important, the tuning? Remember, there is a reason Subaru didn't build these cars at 9:1 from the factory. ;)

And DrinkAV8, I am not trying to belittle you here. I used your build thread as a reference throughout mine. However, all of the threads that list the basics of what you need for less than $3000 doesn't really paint the entire picture. When I did up my intial budget, I had it all less than $5k so I went ahead and started ordering stuff. Then I realized that I should replace this that and the other thing. So much that I didn't take into consideration originally.

For example, I didn't have gauges but quickly realized that to fire this thing up, I'd probably want at least an oil pressure gauge. Sure, a mechanical one can probably be had at autozone or wherever for $20 but then it's in the engine bay (routing mechanical oil gauge to the cabin is not a good idea). So unless you have someone to watch it like a hawk for you during startup, it's kind of a crappy setup. So, I just bit the bullet and bought proper gauges (EGT, oil press and water temp because of small-ish rad for the 2.5). Then, the EGT mounting costed money, I needed an oil pressure sender hose or sandwhich gasket and a rad hose coupler for water temp, not to mention wires and wire crimping tool and little electrical connectors, etc.

Another example, the OEM O2 sensor is very unreliable and is not a wideband so if you have an air leak somewhere and don't have a wideband, you may not know until it's too late. Even if for no other reason than troubleshooting, they are a good idea. Add an unexpected $400.

Anyway, the moral of the (my) story is that what I originally thought was going to be a $5000 2.5L build ended up in the vicinity of $10,000 (Cdn $$ mind you, so about $8k US$). I don't even know if I have all of the S&H and duties costs in there either. Basically, I have just been buying stuff left and right and essentially lost track of it all, which is why it's hard for me to provide an exact figure. Again, I went to a higher performance setup as well because I wanted to take advantage of the 2.5 but even then, I could have spent a LOT more to take FULL advantage of it. And I say that even though I am at 268/340 at the wheels after my tune!

I dont want to get into a thread battle with you over this. I have done about half a dozen other swaps since my first, and have built 20+ non-subaru blocks. I have a pretty good handle on what works and what doesn't with these, what's cost effective and what's not. (OEM wise)

The OP stated that he would like to use as many factory parts as possible. Most of the stuff you stated that he needs is wrong. There is no point in wasting money decking an OEM block. Sounds to me like you are just repeating what you heard from the guys at Crawford, and I will let their reputation speak for itself.

Other than that, you are listing out parts that play no effect with getting a car back on a road by going the cost effective route.

Anyone who has any sense and wants to start modifying cars should have had all of those gauges, tools, etc before hand... it might have even saved you from replacing your motor.

There is a middle road between good preparation, and staying within a budget. Going back and re-reading what the OP stated, his build will be different than yours. No hard feelings :)

You stated in post #2 that he may need to deck the heads and now you're saying there is no need? I agree with that post (#2) pretty much 100% with the exception of some of the hidden costs that the fella may need to consider. And no, Crawford did not tell me to redeck my heads. Not sure why you would assume that? As a matter of fact, it was NASIOC posts that lead me to that conclusion. The shop said mine were not warped but I got them done anyway to be 100% sure I had a good surface to mount the gasket to. If anything, I am repeating what you, and other, have already said in this thread and others. That being said, I agree with the advice in that they should at least be checked as the may need decking. But you're also right in that they may not.

Not everyone who spins a bearing due to overrevving or high g's (i.e., autocross) or whatever reason will have all of the stuff we're talking about either. I've heard of a few stock WRX spinning bearings as well, not just modded ones (and mine was only stage 2 with a PDX protune when it went poof). I am just trying to help a fella budget accordingly so he doesn't get stung. I'm not contradicting anything you have said, I am simply trying to point out all of the things that should be factored into the decision process when considering this build.

Sure, this can be done cheap. Whether you're comfortable with a 9:1 CR is definitely a matter of great debate. I wasn't so I definitely paid extra to be able to sleep easier at night but for the super budget conscious, it may be an accpetable tradeoff. In this debate, I may be wrong but I don't really care because my cars works good. You also mentioned in post #2 about a good tune. Most of the top (Phil, Clarke, Jorge, PDX, TXS, Vishnu, etc) tuners will tell you the hybrids with the high CR can sometimes be a pain to tune. What is a good tune worth? Well, that depends but regardless, you also recommended a good tune in post #2. So, now assuming he has EVERYTHING else in terms of supporting equipment (including EM) and tools, we're at $2000 for the SB kit and some money for a tune. Still over $2000. If he uses a used shortblock and doesn't have to redeck, get new buckets, replace replace replace, then it might be possible. With new parts though, it would be very difficult to do without incurring additional risk associated with some reused parts (particularly the oil pump, water pump and tensioner).

And this is good discussion we're having because the people who are considering this will get a good rundown of what they may need to consider depending on budget and goals and the degree of safety/conservancy they are comfortable with.

:)

I would assume Crawford would tell you that because they are an engine builder, and at the end of the day, they are in buisness to make money. I think alot of these shops say such things in hopes that you will turn to them checkbook open. Resurfacing warped heads is about the lowest costing machine work possible. Lots of speed shops, like to make a 200% profit by taking them from you and sending them out and paying a machinist $100 to do it. Redecking the block clearance is not needed.

I have yet to see a case where the heads were warped. Sure its possible, but you would have to have abused/redlined the engine pretty badly. I think once you have reached that point where you pop a HG, you are probably instore to see some damage to the head internals. Basic spun bearing? You should be just fine.

Lots of things can come up unexpedetly in any build. Find a scored cam and your budget will have to double. I was providing a basic reference for a cost effective swap due to a bad bearing that was caught right away.

As for the tuning aspect, I'd love to exchange IM/PMs with you on that.
it can be difficult to advance timing on higher compression motors, that's a given fact. They can make the same power just as safely though.

Looking back I drove myself crazy deciding on what compression to run. I was told by local shops that I must run a .051 cometic, deck the block, etc Since then, my motor is still making power, and those shop motors have been pulled back out to be rebuilt. I'm not saying they were wrong in their choices for their applications, but my car is still kicking at 17k mi since the swap.

There is a reason I rebuilt mine, and it was not in my hands when it blew up. One of the tuners you mentioned was unable to control my A/F ratios on the dyno w/ my new setup. Funny thing is, I took it home and tuned it with another board member just fine. Lots of money spent does not mean money spent wisely. I have learned that by being burnt by reputable shops.

sorry to but in.

Hey DRINKAV8, You still haven't sent me that wiring harness and it has been well over a month! Now you have stop answering phone calls. Whats the deal. And don't tell me that your busy because you have plenty of time to write out these long posts on the forum. Give me a call.

I understand you reccommend further modification/parts, but if one were only looking to achieve stock HP or slightly better, couldn't a 2.5 be swapped in, perhaps with only a gasket kit, timing belt, and a reflash? I may need to replace my stock engine, and it seems like the hybrid swap is more advantageous than a 2.0 replacement because of $, stronger bottom end, etc? Is there a book I could follow or any technical info I can follow when "rebuilding" the motor? Thanks

I would assume Crawford would tell you that because they are an engine builder, and at the end of the day, they are in buisness to make money. I think alot of these shops say such things in hopes that you will turn to them checkbook open. Resurfacing warped heads is about the lowest costing machine work possible. Lots of speed shops, like to make a 200% profit by taking them from you and sending them out and paying a machinist $100 to do it. Redecking the block clearance is not needed.

I have yet to see a case where the heads were warped. Sure its possible, but you would have to have abused/redlined the engine pretty badly. I think once you have reached that point where you pop a HG, you are probably instore to see some damage to the head internals. Basic spun bearing? You should be just fine.

Lots of things can come up unexpedetly in any build. Find a scored cam and your budget will have to double. I was providing a basic reference for a cost effective swap due to a bad bearing that was caught right away.

As for the tuning aspect, I'd love to exchange IM/PMs with you on that.
it can be difficult to advance timing on higher compression motors, that's a given fact. They can make the same power just as safely though.

Looking back I drove myself crazy deciding on what compression to run. I was told by local shops that I must run a .051 cometic, deck the block, etc Since then, my motor is still making power, and those shop motors have been pulled back out to be rebuilt. I'm not saying they were wrong in their choices for their applications, but my car is still kicking at 17k mi since the swap.

There is a reason I rebuilt mine, and it was not in my hands when it blew up. One of the tuners you mentioned was unable to control my A/F ratios on the dyno w/ my new setup. Funny thing is, I took it home and tuned it with another board member just fine. Lots of money spent does not mean money spent wisely. I have learned that by being burnt by reputable shops.

My machine shop was local and the people who told me to deck the heads were from NASIOC so there is no collusion there. :)

I would LOVE to talk to you on the tuning side... this time around I decided to get Pat Richard at Rocket Rally to tune my car. In my opinion he is one of, if not THE, best in the Suby business. He's been at this for 8 or so years now. He has also tuned tons of high CR motors (most of the rally cars he builds are 10:1) but he said although I could try tuning the higher CR setup, I would be limited in power unless I could use much better fuel. Given the crap gas in my area, I decided to err on the side of caution and go with the Crawford setup in spite of their internet reputation and my car is working just jim dandy. :) Problem with the Crawford rap though is that only the people with problems post. We hear very little about the tons of motors out there doing just fine. I've talked to quite a few people over the course of the past few months with Crawford motors that are doing quite well. I also figure if they're good enough for Pat's race cars, they must be stout. By the way, Crawford motors are not the only motors Pat sells but for this application (WRX heads), it was the safest/cleanest option while also having the best potential for power/torque on crap 91 gas.

Anyway, sorry to get off track but again, all good info for those considering this build. Hope it helps.

I understand you reccommend further modification/parts, but if one were only looking to achieve stock HP or slightly better, couldn't a 2.5 be swapped in, perhaps with only a gasket kit, timing belt, and a reflash? I may need to replace my stock engine, and it seems like the hybrid swap is more advantageous than a 2.0 replacement because of $, stronger bottom end, etc? Is there a book I could follow or any technical info I can follow when "rebuilding" the motor? Thanks

Not really recommending it, just saying that it is an option. Your budget will determine the recommendation. For better bottom end and mild power, I'm sure the OEM block will be just fine with a good tune. Just be prepared to be foreced to run no more than 15 psi on 91, which puts any kind of higher boosting turbo out of reach, unless you simply don't utilize it to it's potential. Either that or the timing will have to be so retarded, well, it would just be retarted. :p

My only point in all of this is that there will most likely be hidden costs that are difficult to factor into the budget early on because until you dig really deep into the research, it's tough to tell what you could end up needing. My sole point was that I think it would be extremely difficult to do this for $2000 (nearly impossble) for most of the cars out there if using new parts. But again, depending on what compromises you''re willing to make, I will concede that it could be done. Is it wise?... well then that is where the "opinion" comes into play. ;)

EDIT: There is no book but the threads on here are a very good guide. Kingpin I think I had a good thread on head prep. Also, I started a thread on here in this forum on "engine rebuilding tips" to try and consolidate the tricks in one location.

Thanks guys, for the wealth of information that you bring. After rereading these and other posts, a hybrid may not be for me, but it is within my capabilities. I would like to stay close to stock for daily reliability, but some performance increase would be nice. Right now, I'm looking for the most cost effective way to get back on the road. As for spending $8k, I'd be better off putting in a stock used longblock, trading it in, and putting the $ towards a new sti. I will continue to read up on hybrids, but the higher strength, lower cost of a New shortblock, and potential for upgrades make it look appealing. However, the higher compression ratio scares me a bit. Assuming the motor could be done for ~$2k ($1500 2.5 short block, $500 gaskets, etc.) then I guess that gauges and EM are def. worth it. I do have all the tools. As for the EM, is an accessport or stock reflash adequate or would I need a UTEC? I am not familiar with the other EM's out there. Thank you

^^^How many miles on your car? In your case, if low miles, you could probably get away with about $2500, assuming you reuse as much as possible and follow DrinkAV8's advice in post #2. As for EM, any will suffice so long as your tuner has the software to program it. Gauges aren't necessary (but are a good idea). At least buy a mechanical oil press gauge and put it in the engine bay and have a friend watch it for you so you know you have oil pressure before you fire it up. No oil pressure = very bad if your oil pump has not primed. Also, I recommend buying or borrowing a wideband O2 for startup. It would be wise to make sure that the AFR's are ok when you go driving around. In most cases you will be fine but if you have an injector isn't sealed properly, a fuel leak, a VAC leak or even a boost leak, things could to hell in a hanfbag very quickly. Borrow one from a friend if you have to. At the VERY LEAST, download ecuexplorer and watch your O2 corrections and make sure they are close to zero for the first few kms. Also keep an eye on knock corrections when driving around to make sure she isn't knocking on the stock map. Of course, after the tuning portion, you will be OK but I am assuming you'll have to drive around on the stock map until after break-in. I don't honestly know how the higher CR motor will react to the stock timing maps but based on what others have said/done, you shoudl be ok for at least break-in when running vacuum pressure (or no more than wastegate spring pressure) for the first 1000 miles. All I am saying, is just be careful and take as many precautions as possible.