After looking over the standings in Group N for the RAC, it brought up a reocurring question I had. What is the reason for 98 percent of the top Group N teams using the Mitsu Lancer as their weapon of choice? Nothing new as it's been like that for the last few years(except for maybe Kenya), but what are the reasons why there are countless more numbers of Lancers over WRXs?

Simply a better rally car?
Less expensinve for car and parts?
More support from Mitsubishi/RalliArt?
Easier to get parts and/or technical support?
Other?

I know many years ago the WRX was surely the car of the field, but it seems ever since maybe the EVO V, the Lancer has dominated. What gives? Thanks.

FWIW, David Higgins currently sits in third place in Group N at the RAC. The lone WRX in the top 20(the other 19 being Lancers). Go Higgins!

the thing is that until the evo VI (the evo VII is mitsubishi's first World Rally Car), mitsubishi participated in the A8 class (the World Rally Car class is not the same as the A8), NOT in the World Rally Car class. And one of the rules for participating in the A8 class is to make a certain number of homologation versions of the car (street versions).
Mitsubishi manufactured the evo's I-II-III-IV-V and VI homologation versions which are the evos you can buy in dealerships. These cars (as they are an homologation of the rally one) are quite fast, and much better designed for rallying than WRXs.

Since the appearance (sp?) of the World Rally Car class, WRXs have been nothing but a sporty car that looks similar to the WRC car. The WRX has never (since the World Rally Car class) been a homologation for the rally car, so in street spec. it's not as fast as an evo (for rallying).

Hope it's clear.

Yeah, and its strange a Group N Impreza won the Group N class too against all those EVO's ! ;)

Group N Imprezas are not as popular but definetly up to the task of winning any EVO.
BTW on the national Argentinian championship (they also host a date of WRC) the Group N WRX dominate.
In the Peruvian championship the same, and so has been the case in the last years in the Australian Rally Championship (think that this year it has finally been won by Mitsubishi).
And the best proof is that although one one (or maybe two) Group N WRX's competed in UK rally one of them won the event over a EVO 6 ..... I am sorry cause it won over a fellow countryman :( (Ferreyros is peruvian and so am I)

Carlos H.

Thanks for the opinions, keep them coming. Very interesting stuff.

Originally posted by chiraoka
Group N Imprezas are not as popular but definetly up to the task of winning any EVO.
BTW on the national Argentinian championship (they also host a date of WRC) the Group N WRX dominate.
In the Peruvian championship the same, and so has been the case in the last years in the Australian Rally Championship (think that this year it has finally been won by Mitsubishi).
And the best proof is that although one one (or maybe two) Group N WRX's competed in UK rally one of them won the event over a EVO 6 ..... I am sorry cause it won over a fellow countryman :( (Ferreyros is peruvian and so am I)

Carlos H.

Sure, WRXs can beat an EVOs in certain situations, but what's most common are EVOs beating WRXs.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't it an A8 WRX that dominates the argentinian rally championship?

By the way, we're neighbors! I am Chilean
At last, another southamerican in the forum. :cool:

Nice having another southamerican around here .....

Yes sure an A8 Subaru Impreza (build by Barattero) is tied on the the overall Argentinian Rally championship, but this is an "old" Group A (not even sequential gearbox or electronically controlled diffs), not a WRC and it is tied with a much newer Corolla WRC (driven by Gabriel Raies).
I think that any well built Group N WRX could beat an EVO but on gravel, it is very hard for a WRX to beat an EVO on tarmac rallies due to the difference in tyre homologations, WRX is allowed to use only a 16" wheel while the EVO can use a 17" one (and wider giving better grip).

Also there are far more Group N EVO tuners than WRX tuners, as you probably have heard Prodrive are not known to be the best Group N builders ..... while there are teams like TOP RUN that have won the last 4 Group N World Rally Championships with EVO's, they have far more experience.
That is why when you take a look at certain countries were there has being at least equal interest and development for the Group N WRX were results start to appear ..... such as Australia, UK (David Higgins has won with his Group N WRX a couple of years ago) and Argentina.

Lets hope that some development is made for the new WRX, since it is a better chassis, has better Tarmac setup (wider and bigger wheels, and also better brakes, remember that the EVO came with bigger brakes since EVO 5) and also there is some work already been carried out to use the electronic central diff on Rally (before it has been imposible, cause when it got warm it stopped working). If some weight could be taken away from this new age WRX it could be the a good weapon to aim at the Group N title.

Carlos H.
Peru

Yeah, we all hope that the new age WRXs do better than the GC8 model in N groups...I think as EVO VIs get older, and maybe EVO VIIs start being used, the WRXs will have an advantadge over them (EVO VIIs), because subaru has raced for some years in the N group with a non-homologation car (contrary to mitsu's evo vi)....Maybe subaru will dominate the N group :) :)

Me di cuenta que tienes un RA del 98, tienes fotos? Ponlas aqui en el forum si es que tienes! Los RA son muuy lindos...(y rapidos :) )

Lo usas para rally? o solamente para la calle?

Ok, voy a tratar de poner algunas fotos ..... mi RA lo uso muy de vez en cuando, la verdad estoy pensando en armarlo para Rally. Pero tiene unas cuantas modificaciones .....
Turbo Hibrido IHI VF 24/22
Central Electronica MOTEC M48Pro (con swicth de antilag de 7 posiciones)
Inyectores 555 cc
Motor EJ20G, son pistones Cosworth, bielas y ciguenal STi
Autoblocante delantero y posterior con diferencial central electronico
Caja de relaciones cortas (S2)
Mangueras de admision Grupo N

Y me dedico como hobby a la puesta a punto de electronicas de WRX's (especialmente con centrales LINK y MOTEC, aunque supongo que con cualquier buen electronica debe de ser parecido)

Carlos H.
Lima - Peru

Since the appearance (sp?) of the World Rally Car class, WRXs have been nothing but a sporty car
that looks similar to the WRC car. The WRX has never (since the World Rally Car class) been a
homologation for the rally car, so in street spec. it's not as fast as an evo (for rallying).

i have to argue with this. this statement only holds true if you compare a WRX to an EVO. hardly a fair comparision. it does not hold true if you compare a WRX STi to an EVO. it is the STi's that get built into the GrN cars. subaru even has the type RA's (of which you want pictures if i remember my high school spanish correctly ;) ) which are designed to be converted easily into a GrN spec car.

i can't argue that in the WRC GrN, the EVO has dominated, although David Higgins did win rally GB. but in the national rallies, this domination does not hold as true. in short, i can't provide an explanation for it, i just don't think its due to homologation issues.

homologation is a big deal ..... Mitsubishi has homologated far more parts for the EVO than Subaru for the WRX, maybe because of the fact that they still used a Grp. A while the other were using WRC's .....

Originally posted by chiraoka
Ok, voy a tratar de poner algunas fotos ..... mi RA lo uso muy de vez en cuando, la verdad estoy pensando en armarlo para Rally. Pero tiene unas cuantas modificaciones .....
Turbo Hibrido IHI VF 24/22
Central Electronica MOTEC M48Pro (con swicth de antilag de 7 posiciones)
Inyectores 555 cc
Motor EJ20G, son pistones Cosworth, bielas y ciguenal STi
Autoblocante delantero y posterior con diferencial central electronico
Caja de relaciones cortas (S2)
Mangueras de admision Grupo N

Y me dedico como hobby a la puesta a punto de electronicas de WRX's (especialmente con centrales LINK y MOTEC, aunque supongo que con cualquier buen electronica debe de ser parecido)

Carlos H.
Lima - Peru


Parece que tu auto es bastante rapido....
wow....

tu lo manejarias en rally?
yo tambien estoy pensando en tratar de hacer rally. Claro que creo que voy a empezar con un N2 o un N3...si es que llego a empezar...

Originally posted by 10th Warrior

... it is the STi's that get built into the GrN cars. subaru even has the type RA's (of which you want pictures if i remember my high school spanish correctly ;) ) which are designed to be converted easily into a GrN spec car...

Yeah, you remebmer you spanish correctly :)

You have a point, but anyways, I think that it is easier to modify a car that is made to be modifyable into an A group car(in this case an EVO VI), and make it competitive in the N group, than it is to modify a car that thought or designed to an N group car (Sti WRXs), to race in the N group.

well, it will be interesting to see how the EVO VII does in that case. since mistu is now using a WRC class car, the EVOs will no longer be as homologated. perhaps the EVO VI will remain the car to beat if you are right. we'll have to wait and see what happens over the next few seasons though.

[edit: need to practice my roman numerals :o ]

I think the answer lies not in which car is faster or tuned better but which car has a more reliable drivetrain.
If you take a look at our ProRally series here in the US the DNF list is full of Subarus with transmission failures. Not such with the Lancer.
Even when the transmission on the subie is working the driver is consious of the fact that it is easily broken and adjusts his driving style to save the gearbox...
Until Subaru remedies their weak gearbox problems I believe that the Lancer will still be the Group N car of choice...
Just my opinion.
Later,
John :)

10th Warrior, the EVO 6 has dominated the Group N world rally championship for the last 3 years, you probably don't even have an idea of the development done on that car .... TOP RUN which is an Italy based Motorsport Team, that has won the last 4 Group N championships (their cars, with different drivers .... Stohl, Pozzo, Trelles) has already built a EVO 7 Grp. N car and have not been able to match the pace of the EVO 6.
The so called Group N class, became Super Group N class at the start of 2001, and more mods were allowed on the cars. Just to let you know some of this new parts that a top Grp N WRX uses:
- Dogbox (Hewland)
- Special driveshafts (similar to those used on WRC's)
- Hydraulic handbrake
- Electronic central diff (modified, and with its own ECU)

FIA wanted to drop the Grp. N championship as the cars were getting too expensive $$$, and replace it with a cheaper class, which has more support from the manufacturers, the 1600cc FWD rally cars (Peugeot, Citroen, Ford, Fiat) ..... but both Subaru and Mitsubishi have already homolagated their latest versions of the EVO and STi, and really Grp. N cars are closer to WRC's than 1600cc FWD cars .....

Carlos H.

Do you own a WRX ? ..... and nope I don't rally mine, although sometimes I use it as opening car (car zero or double zero) on the peruvian national championship.
It is fun opening the road with antilag turned on :D

Carlos H.

:devil:

Originally posted by RallyCSX
I think the answer lies not in which car is faster or tuned better but which car has a more reliable drivetrain.
If you take a look at our ProRally series here in the US the DNF list is full of Subarus with transmission failures. Not such with the Lancer.
Even when the transmission on the subie is working the driver is consious of the fact that it is easily broken and adjusts his driving style to save the gearbox...
Until Subaru remedies their weak gearbox problems I believe that the Lancer will still be the Group N car of choice...
Just my opinion.
Later,
John :)

no offense, but i think this is a flawed argument. there is a financial confound here. to run a lancer is much more expensive than to just get an RS or L and now WRX and tune it. it costs alot less to get a new WRX and prepare it than it does to import an EVO and then tune it. not to mention that subarus are built by lots of different tuners, whereas all (i think) EVOs are prepared by TAD motorsports, who have a reputation for being quite good. also, the STi's do have a strengthened drivetrain so its a mute point. look at the prodrive prepared cars. there reliablilty was right there with the EVOs and when they did fail, it was often something like a rock severing a brake line or something equally strange. not bad considering they used 3 vary different cars for Open and 2 for GrN.

chiraoka-thanks for the info. that is an interesting little tidbit about the EVO VII. of course, we'll have to see how it does with more development (just like the WRC car :rolleyes: ), but it does lend quite abit of support to the homologation theory.

John I don't really know much about US rally rules, because here we only run Group A (A8 and WRC) Group N rally cars .....
Since the gearbox internals and desing are free now, according to the new FIA Group N rules (only the ratios must be the same as original), we've had no more transmission problems. Even EVO's are using new dogboxes, since they have already started braking their reg sync gearboxes ..... remember Grp N cars are getting better and better, right now they are producing almost 50nm of torque !!!!!
So right now it is not upto Subaru to build a good gearbox, but upto Hewland, Prodrive and others, who seem to have been upto the challenge.

Even on WRC, gearboxes are broken just take a look at the most common problem Mitsubishi right now faces, their sequential gearboxes have to be changed every 2 - 3 primes (BTW Loix failed to finish the Q Rally because of GB).

Just my 2c,

Carlos H.

quote:
_________________________________________________

no offense, but i think this is a flawed argument. there is a financial confound here. to run a lancer is much more expensive than to just get an RS or L and now WRX and tune it. it costs alot less to get a new WRX and prepare it than it does to import an EVO and then tune it. not to mention that subarus are built by lots of different tuners, whereas all (i think) EVOs are prepared by TAD motorsports, who have a reputation for being quite good. also, the STi's do have a strengthened drivetrain so its a mute point. look at the prodrive prepared cars. there reliablilty was right there with the EVOs and when they did fail, it was often something like a rock severing a brake line or something equally strange. not bad considering they used 3 vary different cars for Open and 2 for GrN.
__________________________________________________

You cant be serious... price it out... The purchase of an L or an RS plus an STi or a non STi driveline with a homologated ECU and the complete build up. The price is insane. Even a new US WRX, it is outrageous. Call around and ask builders such as cascade, VTcar, Ralli spec, Union 7, the european rally school any of them will verify this. Ask them if it is more sensible to build a open or GN sube or to buy an already built EVO (to find a prepped EVO IV w/spares for around $30k isnt too difficult). Your other point about the reliablity of the vermont/prodrive cars is not exactly accurate. The factory subaru cars used an un-holy amount of gearboxes this season. I couldnt even venture a guess as to how many gearboxs were changed in just Lovells car. STi units or not doesnt matter. FYI... at Ojibwe this year the only new WRX (02) there that wasnt on its second or even third tranny already was, #868 Rivas/Mantopoulus, that was the car's first event. The bottom line is, be it a WRX or EVO or anything else for that matter, to be competitive at the Pro or Club (especially in GN or open) level it takes a TON of money. I'm sure Pat Richard, Jon Bogert, Jason Rivas, Sumit or any other rallyists will back me on that.

-Brandon

Chiraoka
Since the gearbox internals and desing are free now, according to the new FIA Group N rules (only the ratios must be the same as original), we've had no more transmission problems.

I was unaware of that...I understood that the group N SCCA rules were modeled after the FIA rules...Guess I was wrong. thanks


10th Warrior...
I heard about one guy that had Vt Sportscar build a Homologated WRX and the bill was over 50k (not including car) I will try to find his name.


brandonl...
Couldn't have said It better!
At STPR this year when my crew was changing my tires and checking my oil the Vermont Sports Car/ Prodrive cars were getting new gearboxes! It was that very reason that I have decided against building a Subaru. The expence of Rallying is is high enough without having to replace a trans every few stages.

I couldnt even venture a guess as to how many gearboxs were changed in just Lovells car

According to one of the service guys for Lovell, everyone(Prodrive, STi, Subaru) was amazed at just how well the STi 6spd held up in the remaining rallys that the new car was used in. Without a doubt the most reliable factory transmission he has ever seen.

Just repeating info.

To my knowledge, at the end of the season LOVELL used an Open Class car, with the stock diffs, not like the WRC he used at the beggining of the season.
Another interesting detail is that the very best Grp. N cars are not factory built, by this I mean build either by Ralliart or by STi (Prodrive), the very best are built by independent rally teams. In south america we have a Ralliart America which is in Paraguay, and the best EVO's are built in Argentina by a Team called PRO-RALLY and the best WRX's which have won last years FIA south american championship were built by BARATTERO.
Take a look:

BARATTERO SUBARU RALLY TEAM (http://www.barattero.com.ar)

and BTW rallying is EXPENSIVE, and even if you can afford an EVO 4 it will not be competitive against a top STi ver 6 or EVO 6. You can get here a nice Grp. N WRX ver 3 or 4 for US $30,000 (including spares).

Carlos H.

I think the biggest part of this is that the Evo comes with a front LSD. Even the STi didnt come with one until '01(UK/Japan '01, our '02 body style)

STi type RA came with front LSD since ver 5 ..... and mine which is an STi RA ver 4 (1998) also came with one, although it was something I asked for.

Carlos H.

The purchase of an L or an RS plus an STi or a non STi
driveline with a homologated ECU and the complete build up.


any car can cost as much as you have. my point was that, since the ProRally is not always the most professional of circuits and you have alot of people running on tight budgets and with less than completely built cars, a person could pick up an RS or something and throw a turbo and a cage on it and presto: budget GrN car. sure, its not going to beat one of the more built and modern cars, but like chiraoka said, an EVO IV isn't going to beat an EVO VI. if you had the budget to swap drivetrains and what not, swapping/rebuilding trannies is not going to be an issue. do you think that the mitsu guys don't rebuild trannies as well. i personally don't consider the part failing if it makes it threw the race, which was my point about the works subarus. of course they were rebuilt. i'll bet shocks were rebuilt too, but no one is bitching about those :rolleyes: it is a race car, after all.

I heard about one guy that had Vt Sportscar build a Homologated WRX and the bill was over 50k
(not including car) I will try to find his name.

i believe you are talking about Ramana Lagemann, who had quite the season. lets see, $50k for a GrN WRX, $70k+ for an Open EVO IV (Millen). i don't know the price for a GrN EVO. obviously, to be competitive in any form of motorsports costs huge sums of money. my point is that when a budget is a limiting factor, an EVO is going to be more sought by people with more money to spend (look at Nelson).

Originally posted by chiraoka
STi type RA came with front LSD since ver 5 ..... and mine which is an STi RA ver 4 (1998) also came with one, although it was something I asked for.

Carlos H.

But was it homologated?

Price for a top of the line Grp. N EVO 6 (new) built by TOP RUN is around US$ 90K, with latest dogbox, hydraulic handbrake and Ohlins 60mm struts. We have one of those here in Lima and one in Ecuador ..... very impressive for a Grp. N car.
Once I read on I-club that Ramana's WRX was using 1.4 bar of boost, here our Grp. N cars use 1.8 bar (remember that because of the 32mm air restrictor there is power available only upto 5500rpm)

http://www.toprunracing.com

Carlos H.

Hi,

This is a pretty cool forum, lots of good conversations. However, I feel the need to clear up a few things in this thread, if I may. Here is the story with our car:

The car started out as a "mid" spec Gp. N car, but as better parts etc. became available it was upgraded throughout the season. Our car still wasn't a "full spec" Gp. N car, however. For example, our car wasn't built to lightweight spec. There is a relatively large sum of money involved when it comes to this; for example, aluminum and titanium fasteners are used virtually throughout, along with carbon seats, kevlar skid plates, carbon interior pieces, etc etc. As a result, a lightweight car is 150-200lbs lighter than our car. For a team seeking to be as competitive as possible, this is a must, but at our level, when cost and durability are the biggest factors, it doesn't make much sense. For your information, the GC8 Impreza that Lovell ran in the beginning of the season was a lightweight car.
Also, we used Ohlins, but not the latest Prodrive spec Ohlins. For us, what we had fulfilled our needs adequately.
In addition, we ran an Sti 4 motor all season. ECU was Autronic. Max boost was 1.5 Bar, not the 1.8+ of a top spec group N car. This was done also for the sake of cost. Instead of a rebuild every few rallies, we only had 1 "freshening" for the engine the entire season.

The GC8 has benefited tremendously thanks to the new rule on gearboxes. We went through several of the standard sti syncro gearboxes, but then at Rim of the World, we got one of the first dogboxes produced by Prodrive. This change was made more in the name of reliability than performance. The result? Zero gearbox issues, and 5 events without a rebuild. This was definitely the best investment made in the car.

Another note, the initial homologation of the "new age" car didn't include the STi 6 speed, just the standard WRX 5 speed. That's what was constantly breaking and getting changed in SRTUSA's Gp. N car from STPR till (I believe) Ojibwe. Once Karl's Gp. N car got the 6 speed there wasn't one problem with the box.

So that is about it. When all was said and done, our car wasn't cheap, but then racing isn't either. We spent money where we felt it was necessary, and we had a good reliable car throughout. We managed to get some good coverage for our sponsors, and if it leads to bigger and better things in the future, the time and money spent was worth it.

As far as the WRX vs. Evo debate goes, I think in the future, the new age WRX STi will be a much more appealing alternative to the E7 in international rallying. The biggest problem with the WRX was the gearbox, but that issue is gone now. It'll be interesting to see which car comes out on top!

Regards,
Ramana Lagemann

Nice to have you over here Ramana, and congrats for a very good season ..... I myself have been a rally navigator years ago (always on WRX's). It is very true what you are saying about boost levels and reliability, our best Grp. N car which makes >1.8bar of boost on a IHI VF28 turbo has it's engine refreshed every 2 races, and the conrods replaced 2 times in the season. The other engine internals (pistons and crank) are not changed.
Most cars in the south american rally championship use MOTEC ECU's (M48 Pro), and now are using a new clever device to select the amount of antilag to be used (soft - hard).
Have you tried DMS' 60mm struts ..... they have proven to be (at least here and in the super competitive Argentinian Rally Championship) very very good and not so expensive when compared with Ohlins 50mm strut.

I too think that the new STi 7 will be a better rally machine than the EVO 7. The only thing which right now makes the STi 7 very expensive to build as a rally car is its extra weight ..... so right now you have to invest $$$ more than on the "old" GC8 chassis to reduce weight on the new age chassis, and also remember that the 6 speed gearbox alone is 40 kgs more heavier than the 5 speed version.

Carlos H.

PS. it is good to have first hand opinions, specially when talking about gearboxes.

wow, thanks for the great info Ramana. its nice to hear things directly for a change. interesting stuff, to say the least.

Originally posted by chiraoka
Do you own a WRX ? ..... and nope I don't rally mine, although sometimes I use it as opening car (car zero or double zero) on the peruvian national championship.
It is fun opening the road with antilag turned on :D

Carlos H.

:devil:

no, I don't have a WRX. I don't even own a car. I'm not even allowed to legally drive on streets... But I do it anyway (shhh .... :devil: :D :D :D ) , on my father's car (legacy 2.0 GT N/A 1993), my sister's car (1996 WV Polo, only manual car in the house) or my mother's car (1993 toyota tercel)

i believe you are talking about Ramana Lagemann, who had quite the season. lets see, $50k for a GrN WRX, $70k+ for an Open EVO IV (Millen). i don't know the price for a GrN EVO. obviously, to be competitive in any form of motorsports costs huge sums of money. my point is that when a budget is a limiting factor, an EVO is going to be more sought by people with more money to spend (look at Nelson).

No I wasnt referring to Ramana... It was a silver 01 or 02 WRX

Ramana...
Great drive in Maine! 5th overall 1st N... I was up there spectating this year. There was quite a competitive spread of cars.

The GC8 has benefited tremendously thanks to the new rule on gearboxes. We went through several of the standard sti syncro gearboxes, but then at Rim of the World, we got one of the first dogboxes produced by Prodrive. This change was made more in the name of reliability than performance. The result? Zero gearbox issues, and 5 events without a rebuild. This was definitely the best investment made in the car.


So you agree that the weak gearbox that you ran previously hindered you...My only arguement was that Lancers were a more competitive car because of that. Apparently this will not be true in the future.
Later and good luck!
John

10th warrior, the price of a built open or GN car versus building one isnt even close. Anyone will tell you buy one thats already done. I beleive the guy you might be thinking of is Keith Kreisler, he had a GN car (same as Ramana's) built by Vermont Sports Car. Very costly to build GN as Ramana will verify.

Also, earlier someone said you could turbocharge a 2.5RS to get away cheap in GN. Thats not to GN rules. The are very specific on what parts can and cant be used, it can be cheaper to build an Open class car than a GN.

Congrats Ramana, good season. Good luck next year...

-Brandon

Excellent info guys, thanks for all the input. So basically what I'm getting is that the later EVO's were basically more "rally-ready" out of the box and due to the popularity of the EVO, there are probably more shops around the world that specialize in rally-prepping EVOs which aid in the popularity in itself. Hoever, most(as in this thread) seem to feel the New Age WRX may indeed be the car to have in the next few years of Group N, but we'll have to wait and see. Sound about right? :)

And Ramana, thanks for your input as well. Hopefully the rest of the i-club won't scare you away :lol: Best of luck next season.

-Matt

Yeah, in Gr. N I think the new age WRX will be the way to go. But I dont think that will be the case in Gr. A/Open Class. The WRX motor holds up great at stock HP levels, but the Mitsu 4G63 is much more reliable when running at higher HP levels.

Yeah, in Gr. N I think the new age WRX will be the way to go. But I dont think that will be the case in Gr. A/Open Class. The WRX motor holds up great at stock HP levels, but the Mitsu 4G63 is much more reliable when running at higher HP levels.

uhmmmm a little more information is needed ..... as their is the Mitsu 4G63 there is also a EJ20G which is the closed deck bullet proof version of the EJ20 engine, used on the WRC's and which can match the power output of the EVO engine anytime. Also if the US wants to host a date of the World Rally Championship or any other FIA sanctioned championship (like NACAM), OPEN CLASS cars won't be allowed (specially if a date of the ASIA-PACIFIC or WRC is considered in the states) or allowed to score. Only Grp A and Grp N cars are allowed in the differet categories.
WRC's may not have the power of an Open Class car but handle "x" times better .....

Carlos H.

Originally posted by chiraoka


uhmmmm a little more information is needed ..... as their is the Mitsu 4G63 there is also a EJ20G which is the closed deck bullet proof version of the EJ20 engine, used on the WRC's and which can match the power output of the EVO engine anytime. Also if the US wants to host a date of the World Rally Championship or any other FIA sanctioned championship (like NACAM), OPEN CLASS cars won't be allowed (specially if a date of the ASIA-PACIFIC or WRC is considered in the states) or allowed to score. Only Grp A and Grp N cars are allowed in the differet categories.
WRC's may not have the power of an Open Class car but handle "x" times better .....

Carlos H.


I didnt say anything about power output, I said reliability at the higher power output.
The crank on the EJ20 is flimsy compared to the crank of a 4G63. And if I recall, even the STi models havent come with a closed deck since '95 or so? It's not the blocks that fail, it's the crank.

On the contrary I think that the STi crank (different to the regular WRX one) is quite good at handling xtra HP.

Take a look at the following thread ..... a friend known as "Happy" on i-club knows a lot more on the EJ turbo engines and may be able to coment more.

Happy's engine .... (http://i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111362&perpage=25&pagenumber=2)

a piece of it:


I've been reading both this, and the "best engine" threads with interest. There seems to be very differring views on what "can", and what "can't" be done with the EJ25 engine.

It seems that whilst you guys have been turbo'ing the EJ25 for some time, and have some pretty experienced tuners, you need to look elsewhere. JUN certainly have a very good reputation, but I suspect that some of your own tuners have more experience with this engine.

I've just built an EJ25, and to say I'm "HAPPY" with the results, is somewhat of an understatement. I had very little to go on as far as expected results, apart from Trey Cobb telling me 500bhp was possible from 20psi, and JUN's "Hyperex" EJ25, that made 488bhp/429ftlbs from 22psi.

My Engine:

Cobb EJ25 semi closed deck block, wire ringed. (oil squirters also fitted).
STi '98 heads reworked by Cobb. (custom cams,valves, springs,flowed).
Cobb/JE pistons, ceramic coated crowns/teflon coated skirts.
Crank: Custom.
Rods : Custom.
Compression: 8.3:1
Garrett GT35 turbo.
Turbotechnics external wastegate.
Custom exhaust headers, up pipe, down pipe.
GrpA inlet manifold, reworked for 8 x Bosch top feed injectors.
2 x tank mounted fuel pumps, feeding fuel surge tank.
2 x Bosch motorsport pumps, feeding custom fuel rails.
Uprated fuel regulator.
FMIC, to reversed inlet manifold.
WRC air injector set up (replaces boost solenoid).
Mappable ecu.

Think that's most of it............

Mapping was done on a bench dyno, and the results are,

3000rpm 103bhp 181ftlbs 1.6 psi
3500rpm 181bhp 272ftlbs 8 psi
4000rpm 334bhp 430ftlbs 27.2 psi
4500rpm 427bhp 473ftlbs 30 psi
5000rpm 450bhp 466ftlbs 28 psi
5500rpm 503bhp 473ftlbs 28 psi
6000rpm 524bhp 469ftlbs 28 psi

At this point the dyno started having a problem controlling the engine ramp speed, and the dyno owner tried several times to get stable results, but couldn't. He turned the dyno off, claiming the engine was going to break the dyno shaft......

I talked him into running 7000rpm, but at reduced boost. He agreed to run a max of 16psi.... but refused point blank to run 7500, and 8000rpm, saying that he couldn't afford to buy a new dyno !!!

7000rpm 507bhp 378ftlbs 16 psi

The ecu map was exstrapolated out, to give safe fuel/ignition to 8000rpm, running 28 psi. What bhp I'll be getting at 8000rpm, running 28 psi, is any ones guess..........

We also did some runs, using higher boost at 4500rpm, and this gave 512ftlbs, but I don't think I really need it ........

Oh, and we also ran up to 40 psi at one point, "just to make sure it can take it", dyno guys words.....the engine was totally "clean", no dettonation. Alright for him !!! I was on my knee's, praying.....

The engines back in the car, and will be up and running in the next few days. The drivetrain, has been addressed, along with various other chassis mod's.

Only time will tell if it all stays together.

In the mean time, I'd be talking to Tuners like Trey Cobb, because his engines are kicking JUN's a*se........

Happy........VERY.........



Carlos H.

Subaru had the front LSD homologated since 1998.
Super Grp. N rules apply from the beggining of 2001.

Carlos H.

That motor has a custom crank in it though. And the STi crank is still flimsy. A friend mine just had his out of the car and said it's not very impressive and it fits in a shoe box.

Originally posted by chiraoka
Subaru had the front LSD homologated since 1998.
Super Grp. N rules apply from the beggining of 2001.

Carlos H.


Good to know. Thank you.

it fits on a shoe box because it is a BOXER engine ;)

Carlos H.

Hi,

Thanks for the replies-

Carlos,
I haven't tried the DMS struts, but everyone who has seems to love them. Of course, the Ohlins were incredible, the differance over Proflex is quite noticeable.

John,
Yes I agree that the standard box, had we used it throughout the season, would have given us something to worry about.

It has always been known that as far as GP. N cars go, the Subarus handle better. At the begining of the season we were aware that a dogbox would be available sometime in the first half of the year. Otherwise, we would have been in an Evo this season!

Regards,
Ramana

Interesting to see how things have progressed over the years...


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/dukeballer1127/GT4/IMG0036.jpg

Interesting to see how things have progressed over the years...

Seriously... Group N is now marketed as the Production Car WRC. The championship was held 1-2-3 by Subarus last year and this year it's a close race between the Spec C and Evolution 8. I'm glad Subaru started to homologate the STis and thus keeping the class alive.

Currently Toshi Arai leads with a Group N Spec C car. Xavier Pons in an Evolution 8 was gonna give him trouble until he gave up PCWRC for a WRC drive.

Seriously... Group N is now marketed as the Production Car WRC.

More specifically:

Group N(4) is a specific set of technical regulations that cars are to be prepared to. Group N(4) cars run in the WRC, in FIA zone championships, and in national championships worldwide. Group N(1-4) cars are typically referred to as "production" cars to distinguish their limited modifications, and in contrast to World Rally Cars or Group A cars.

The top-level international championship for N(4) cars is called the Production Car World Rally Championship.

Hahahah

y2k43door

You are a idiot. No question...

Lol Scream "STi's have weak cranks" all you want, doesn't change the fact that you are completely 100% WRONG. I don't recall EVER hearing of a subaru motor tossing a crank from excess power. I've heard of cranks breaking because someone "lightened" or "balanced" them in a incorrect manner.

This despite a growing number of High rpm, high HP motors.

You want to know why a crank that LOOKS as weak as a STi's does can hold huge power? Well there is many reasons. The first of which is you have a crank that is ultra short. IIRC <18" nose to tail. This does wonders for how much crank you need. Less distance for the crank to start trying to act like a rope supported at the ends instead of a solid object, less distance for the crank to deflect under loads, etc. Oh and less mass. Then there is the 5 main bearings. 5 main bearings supported by the stiffest "bottom end" you could dream of. So instead of a long crank supported by bearings far apart and with bearings that can deflect under load, you have a short crank in a super ridgid case with close spaced bearings. Then look at the stroke. Very very short stroke for a modern motor. This dramaticly reduces the stress on the crank. I'd have to run the math but a B18C5 from a teg Type-R running 8K is IIRC experiencing more stress than the EJ257 does at 9K. So on a EJ257 with a super mild redline of a mere 7,500 or so... you are seeing relatively minimal stress compared to other common applications. Oh and BTW peak stresses on a motor tend to DECREASE with an increase in cylinder pressures. So a high powered motor can be MORE reliable than a low powered one....

Basicly little man, go play with your tonka trucks until you can bring real facts to the table instead of "But mommy said it looks weak... "

hey xt6wagon, you do realise this thread starte 4 years ago, dont you?

the ej257 that we now have in the STi did not exist. it was onlly a gleam in an FHI engineers eye when he made the crank comment. sure he was still wrong. but the amount of WRX knowlede at the time was minimal at best.

Sure, WRXs can beat an EVOs in certain situations, but what's most common are EVOs beating WRXs.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't it an A8 WRX that dominates the argentinian rally championship?

By the way, we're neighbors! I am Chilean
At last, another southamerican in the forum. :cool:

Make that another South American!! I'm from Santiago, but living
in Albuquerque, NM USA.
BTW, I rally a Group N GC8 STi :p

Make that another South American!! I'm from Santiago, but living in Albuquerque, NM USA.
BTW, I rally a Group N GC8 STi :p

That's cool :banana:

Why are you using a GrN car though? I thought there were non-FIA (SCCA?) classes in the US in which you could have competitive cars cheaper than with GrN rules? Well whatever the reason, good luck with your rallying :D Do you race in a regional or national champ?

That's cool :banana:

Why are you using a GrN car though? I thought there were non-FIA (SCCA?) classes in the US in which you could have competitive cars cheaper than with GrN rules? Well whatever the reason, good luck with your rallying :D Do you race in a regional or national champ?


GN pays money out. plus it currently has more competion in it than the other national classes right now.

That's cool :banana:

Why are you using a GrN car though? I thought there were non-FIA (SCCA?) classes in the US in which you could have competitive cars cheaper than with GrN rules? Well whatever the reason, good luck with your rallying :D Do you race in a regional or national champ?


I race mostly in western US events. There's usually a good
Group N field, so the competition is good. Also, with the group N
car, I'm legal to run wrc mexico in March. Might be only rally I will run next year.

-Vic

GN pays money out.
I had no idea :confused:
Also, with the group N car, I'm legal to run wrc mexico in March. Might be only rally I will run next year.
:eek: Nice! I guess you know that chilean Luis Ignacio Rosselot is in the PWRC this year? He finished 3rd in the WRC Rally argentina in the N4 :eek: .Unfortunatley he has no money (no sponsors :mad: ) to do the couple of races that remain in the pwrc so he might get a penalty from the FIA (up to 2 years without a licence :( ...you can read more about that in the forum of rallychileno.cl).

Also, I thought that grN homologations lasted 5 years with few exceptions, and you say your car is a 00' GC ,and you plan on using it on 2006? :confused:

Also, I thought that grN homologations lasted 5 years with few exceptions, and you say your car is a 00' GC ,and you plan on using it on 2006? :confused:


FIA extended homologation on gc8 until 2008!! It was good news for me as I had plan to take the car this last year, but had no $$
Also for Mexico, FIA has some exceptions for USA competitors since there are so few in the event.

Group N in the US only pays out if your a newer model subaru (Vermont Sports car,SOA).
In general, U.S payout is very low.
To make a small fortune with rally in the US, you must start with a large fortune
:lol:

Doesnt Luis Ignacio Rosselot rally N4 Mitsubishi?

FIA extended homologation on gc8 until 2008!!
2008? wow, that applies to all sti gc8 variations, or there's specific versions that can use that extension?

To make a small fortune with rally in the US, you must start with a large fortune
Unfortunately it's like that pretty much everywhere :mad:

Doesnt Luis Ignacio Rosselot rally N4 Mitsubishi?
Yep he uses an evo 8 (MR i think).

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/motorsports/e/05wrc/ra/photo/l2_7.jpg

beautiful car if it wasn't for the lack of sponsors :(

And now with the possible FIA penalty...meh :(