I have an 05 STI with a stock turbo.

But I have just about every mod besides a big turbo.

tbe
header
uppipe
fmic
intake
v2.0 protune etc...


What do you guys think the power gains would be with lets say the nitrous express intercooler sprayer? And is it tunable with the Cobb AP 2.0?

Call Dan at MachV tomorrow and ask him. Seriously...he has tuned EVOs on it and is a fan and he does tuning with AP.

I have never been a fan, unless you live in a really hot area and then meth injection or actual nitrous cools and makes much more power, depends on what your goals are...

Street racing or drag racing?

Drag racing I would just install a fan and zip tie dry ice!

Cause you usually can get dry ice cheap.... usually.....

Cause you usually can get dry ice cheap.... usually.....


lol


My car might see the drag strip once or twice a year. Its a street car.

i was wondering this same thing but for a 02 WRX with similar mods. except FMIC and engine mangement.

Meth injection, for more reasons than just lower intake temps.
Be good,
TomK

I have an 05 STI with a stock turbo.

But I have just about every mod besides a big turbo.

tbe
header
uppipe
fmic
intake
v2.0 protune etc...


What do you guys think the power gains would be with lets say the nitrous express intercooler sprayer? And is it tunable with the Cobb AP 2.0?

I'm late... I personally think that running an intercooler sprayer is highly inefficient and a waste of your money. Why not run a wet system or water/alky/meth injection? I'm not being negative. I'm just curious as to why. :)

when i spoke to dan at mach v he said he got about 50 hp not sure if he was talking whp or what,out of his spray bar system if i remember correctly.... but i think he said it was because it was sucking a bit of juice into the intake.. its been a while so i could be wrong... i am going down to mach v next friday to get a tune... last time i was there my selonid for my spray bar was not working... its fixed now... and i also added a alky system.... i'll let you know if i find it makes a difference on my 2002....

if you do it you can do it cheap..... buy a nos tank & selenoid of of ebay... get some nos line from auto zone, and a cheap switch.... buy a boost sensitive switch(adjustable from 1psi up) from www.coolingmist.com run the line... wire the switch... you should be able to do it for less than $200.00 depending on the deals you run into..... i personaly bought the dei co2 kit but use nos in it... got it on e-bay for $250.... but then again i had to call dei for a new selinod....

when i spoke to dan at mach v he said he got about 50 hp not sure if he was talking whp or what,out of his spray bar system if i remember correctly.... but i think he said it was because it was sucking a bit of juice into the intake.. its been a while so i could be wrong... i am going down to mach v next friday to get a tune... last time i was there my selonid for my spray bar was not working... its fixed now... and i also added a alky system.... i'll let you know if i find it makes a difference on my 2002....

50 hp? At the crank or whp? What dyno? Trap speed before and after the spray to the intercooler?

It isn't a bad idea, however, I would think a good alc/meth kit would be enough. It is definately going to be cheaper in the long run because you don;t have to worry about getting that bottle filled.

Sounds good. I might stop by and see whats up!

50 hp? At the crank or whp? What dyno? Trap speed before and after the spray to the intercooler?

At the wheels. AWD Dynojet. No trap speeds, sorry.

This was my Evo, way back when I first got it. Air/fuel is not shown here, but it was within 0.1 a/f ratio between the runs, so I figure the gain was not due (entirely) to nitrous being injested by the engine, although I don't doubt some was being sucked into the intake. The intercooler turned all frosty from the cold -- that was cool (heh) to see.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y249/danhurwitz/Dyno%20charts/NTercooler.jpg

--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com (www.fastwrx.com)

Buschur Racing swears that most of the gains of Nitrous on the intercooler were a result of the nitrous being sucked in by the intake.

hydramist...ftw.

Buschur Racing swears that most of the gains of Nitrous on the intercooler were a result of the nitrous being sucked in by the intake.

Facts, man, I want FACTS, not "I read that..."

Here's one argument against that: Typically, a nitrous shot has a constant horsepower effect and a decreasing torque effect, since the nitrous being sprayed is constant over time and the motor will ingest less and less of it per combustion cycle as the RPM increases. This (the Evo graph above) looks different than that -- the more RPM, the higher the power difference.

Here's a dyno graph of a nitrous-fed V8...note power bump that stays the same as RPMs increase.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y249/danhurwitz/Dyno%20charts/TransAmdynograph.jpg

--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com (www.fastwrx.com)

A good way to prove this theroy is of someone can post up a C02 fmic spray, so we can compare it to Dan's dyno.

Anyone...?

My thoughts are for 50whp there has got to be some ingestion into the intake. Though I think this would be something that would have popped up on an a/f reading. I would think the engine would run a bit lean for an instance.

I have used intercooler sprayers on EVO's, top mount and front mount Subaru's, SRT4's, Honda's w/ front mounts, on the dyno. And the only one that had a negative air/fuel ratio was the SRT4. Sometimes I will see a couple TENTHS of a point in air fuel leaner, but nothing bad.
The Subaru's, w/ front mounts, have gained 30-50hp to wheels...on our lower-reading dyno.
BUT, I do agree, that water/meth injection is a FAR BETTER WAY TO GO. Better reliabilty, long-term cash savings, and tunable. I push hard for water/meth injections... some people, just have their own ideas and beliefs!

Absubtle
CO

A good way to prove this theroy is of someone can post up a C02 fmic spray, so we can compare it to Dan's dyno.

Anyone...?

My thoughts are for 50whp there has got to be some ingestion into the intake. Though I think this would be something that would have popped up on an a/f reading. I would think the engine would run a bit lean for an instance.

We have used CO2 on couple Honda and Nissan applications w/ the same power gains. Also, on couple of cars, some w/ stand-alone engine managements, we have seen an intake temp decrease about 40-60 degrees, w/ the sensor mounted in the intake manifold. Also, the lingering effect, is that it does take awhile for the intake air temp rise back up to normal operating temp.
This is in a closed area, on the dyno, w/ only a couple high-volume, velocity, industrial fans. Nothing to compare to actual road speed wind velocity, which would increase the cooling effect.
Absubtle
CO
PS- CO2 and N20 have very similiar properties and almost the same boiling point, I think around -34 degrees F. The only difference, of course, nitrous is an oxidizer.

Facts, man, I want FACTS, not "I read that..."

Well I don't own a shop so I can't do my own testing but:

Believe whatever you like. I've done the testing with Co2 and nitrous. The huge power gains were from nitrous being ingested by the engine and the misfiring was caused by C02 being ingested. Not enough proof, please give us a call we have a few kits we'll be glad to sell to you very cheap.

I don't see the problem here. You have two reputable guys saying they saw the same thing in testing and it is being questioned as if we are lieing. Neither Al or myself are trying to sell anyone an intercooler sprayer.

The particular test we did was with co2. The cars, three seperate cars all on the sale day all developed misfires when the C02 was activated. So we made a large card board "deflector" to keep the air filters away from the spray. The misfire went away. That is technical enough for me.

I have had other cars come in with nitrous sprayers on them. The owners just loved the power increase on the dyno. After seperating the nitrous from the air intakes the same effect took place, no large gains in power.

One thing you have to remember about the air temps some of you are referring to. Yes, the car will be faster on a colder day BUT you would be surprised just how much the power difference you get is from the cold air and how much of it is from parameters in the ECU.

For example. When tuning an AEM EMS on our dyno. I don't use a lot of correction factors while I am tuning. The power will not differ very much from pull to pull. Even if the intake temps are rising from so much dyno work.

David Buschur

I must admit sheepishly, that I also doubted your [referring to Buschur]advice on these matters so I had to conduct my own individual testing on my own car years ago only to find the same conclusion.

We found that opening a nos bottle and spraying it into the air 20 feet in front of the car while on the dyno would have the same effect on the dyno sheet as sparying it on the fmic.

I am repeating what I read (which I think was clear from my post), but it's only 1 degree of separation from the horse's mouth. Don't shoot the messenger.

I believe dan!! opening a nos bottle 20 feet in front of the car is not going to give you 50 whp.... thats like saying opening a nos bottle in front of the car is like having a 75 shot in in evo........ I find that very hard to believe... you would have to have so much nos in the air for that that you wouldnt be able to see straight enough to read the dyno graph!! :)

At the wheels. AWD Dynojet. No trap speeds, sorry.

--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com (www.fastwrx.com)

Thanks! I appreciate that.

the real problem with testing this on a dyno is that since there air is flowing due to fans in front of the car more or less the air is traped inside the building wich is my from what i have seen you see a lager power increase from nitrous and a slight power loss from c02. i think in a real world situation when the car is passing over fresh air with just a little bit of the gas you will get a very slight increase with both. if you are really looking to cool down the air look at this.
http://cryofuzion.com/images/3000gt_eng.jpg
that is ice built up on the intake.
it is the only air cooling system i would try on my car. though it is expensive

I'll say it again, why waste nitrous on the OUTSIDE of the engine. Spray it INSIDE.

^ That is my original gripe. I feel it's just so inefficient.

it is inefficient you will see just as much if not more cooling from spraying inside the motor plus you get the added oxygen. spraying on the out side will never get you anywhere near the power spraying inside will. which is why i will never beleive these test showing a 50whp increase.

i am planing on scraping my fmic spray bar and changing to a wet kit.... when we did the dyno test last week, the bottle was running low and did not freeze the ic over because no liquid nitrous was comming out and we got a 10 whp gain .... so as Dan said in the shop " guess this lends credit to the theory that the engine sucks up a bit of nitrous"... anyway afret talking everything over with him i will be adding a wet kit and junking the spray bar.... any one know if a wet to dry kit will have enough parts to do the conversion???

also to everyone who believes in the meth kits, i boosted 22 psi and only got like 3whp ot of my alky kit.... my wastegate would not hold any more boost, so i'm gona change it out and see if the meth makes a big difference at around 24-26 psi... but at this point i havent seen any real gains and dont really expect to....

meth will get you gains it is proven and to many people have seen gains with it the problem is you have to run a more aggresive tune or you wont see any gains just in running meth.

here is a quick test done on using nitrous and c02 spraybars. it may not be 100% unbias since it is a company that makes a competing product but if it did work they wouldn't write this and just make spary bars

http://cryofuzion.com/spraybar.htm

i' say 22psi is pretty agressive....

i dont think so i would say that is where a big 16g should be and 24 to 25psi is aggressive look at the DSM world they run these turbos that high all of the time. just like i wouldn't call anything below 19psi on the stock wrx td04 agressive. maybe 22psi with a lot of timing or running like 12/1 air/fuel. i think you are the only person who thinks meth injection won't get you gains. but this is about nitrous spray bars not meth.

why not get the spec c tank, use alchy/water? Cheaper, last longer

also to everyone who believes in the meth kits, i boosted 22 psi and only got like 3whp ot of my alky kit.... my wastegate would not hold any more boost, so i'm gona change it out and see if the meth makes a big difference at around 24-26 psi... but at this point i havent seen any real gains and dont really expect to....

If you don't get gains from meth IMHO someone can't tune. No offense but, meth/ alky goes back aways and it's tried and trued.


Semi OT.....
Injection works so well that in my AMA drag class they banned it on turbo bikes to give NOS bikes a chance at competting.

are you saying that dan at mach v and cristian (the guy who developes the maps for cobb) cant tune, because if you are your out of your mind.....

you even admited that they didn't finish tunning it since your wastegate wasn't working. if they were only able to get a 3whp increase with meth on a completly working car then yes i would have to say they can't tune. but i don't think that is the case here. i think you will see gains if you get the wastegate problem figured out and have them retune it.

are you saying that dan at mach v and cristian (the guy who developes the maps for cobb) cant tune, because if you are your out of your mind.....

I would never say that.... they are legends.

Hi, I have been considering getting a nos cooling spray kit for my APS FMIC on a 2002 STi S202. I also have the APS 70mm CAI which is in the fender so it should not get any nos in the intake. I also have a large resevoir for my intercooler sprayer as my car is a Spec C. For street use, I am going to fill the resevoir with water and meth. Do you think the nos spray will help more than the meth and water?

Thanks
Special

You are going to spray Meth and water on the outside of your intercooler?! Using your spec C resevoir and stock Intercooler sprayer?

Meth is extremely corrosive. When mixed with water its a little less corrosive. It will eat away at all the intercooler sprayer lines since they are rubber and will eventually develope leaks. Since you have a front mount you will also eat away at all your clear coat and paint on the front bumper. Not to mention if someone plucks a lit cigarrette butt outta their window and hits the meth.... F&F boom

What about Nos then or CO2? It won't go into my intake as it is in the fender.

What about Nos then or CO2? It won't go into my intake as it is in the fender.

The big obstacle to using pressurized gas of any type is going to be the capacity. Freezing the intercooler takes a LOT of compressed gas. You'll use up a ten-pound tank in maybe 1-2 minutes of constant spraying. Fine for the drag strip or the dyno, and fine for a couple of stoplight runs, but then you're out! If you want to use it for daily driving, it's just not going to last long. Same goes for road racing. It works, but you'll probably be out of compressed gas in a few laps.

If you just want to cool the intercooler a bit, water is your best bet. When the Evo came out, it came with a water sprayer, and published stuff from Mitsubishi claimed the sprayer was worth 2-3 hp. Not huge, but hey, water is cheap. And it has a huge capacity to absorb heat, so a little goes a long way.

That brings up, though, that although Mitsubishi recommends filling the tank with water, Subaru suggests using washer fluid for the STi water sprayer. The washer fluid is mixed with some alcohol, so it won't freeze if the temp drops.

--Dan
Mach V
FastWRX.com (www.fastwrx.com)

Here is my problem with nitrous and CO2 sprayers, this is power ONLY when its on, and for a min or two after (maybe a couple more min than that) it sprays. As the IC warms back up, power changes again.
I personally see no purpose to this outside autocross and drag racing, to be used before/during the run to combat heatsoak. In fact, if you drag a lot, I think this is a great investment.
On the street however, I really think this is close to useless. Alcohol injection is a much better way to go if you are looking for additional charge cooling. In fact, its better as you not only get more charge cooling than just a plain (non frozen) IC, but you also get a MASSIVE octane boost. And its always there. Every time you get on it and the boost pressure crosses the turn on point, or when your MAF voltage passes the turn on point.

IC water sprayers are also IMHO next to useless. Better than nothing, but not much better.

Hi, yes it is only going to be used for drag racing. There seems to be mixed opinions if it works or not, but if it can reduce the intake temps as I live in a hot climate, I cant see how it won't work and at least be better for the engine at WOT, and hopefully give me 20whp extra. I have an Autronic EMS in case any changes need to be made to accomodate the change in temps, but I think as the Autronic reads off of an Air Temp Sensor, no real changes will have to be made. I also have an Autronic A/F Analyzer to monitor the fuel through the EMS.

but is water meth a safe choice i know it lowers intake temps and delays detonation , just wondering cause i want this i just want relibilty and power and i know its not cheap thanks guys

Well I don't own a shop so I can't do my own testing but:

I am repeating what I read (which I think was clear from my post), but it's only 1 degree of separation from the horse's mouth. Don't shoot the messenger.

why don't you post the questions i asked in that thread too?