ok, i'm curious as to just how much slower nascar is. obviously they are slower than the open wheelers on the ovals (and road courses, for that matter) but i'm curious about GT cars. Sears Point is the only course that ALMS and nascar share, so that will have to be the test track. obviously, the prototypes are going to be way faster than the stock cars, and i imagine the GTS machines will also spank those carburorated monstrasities, but what about GT? they are way down on the hp, but obviously have better technology, way less, have better brakes, suspension, etc. so, does anyone have lap times for the respective series.

ALMS:

P900=1:23.000

GTS=1:32.127

GT=1:34.614

I just found this on www.nascar.com.

Sears Point

RACE RECORDS

NASCAR Series Driver Speed Date
Winston Cup Series E. Irvan 81.412 6/7/92
Craftsman Truck Series D. Rezendes 67.001 10/5/96

QUALIFYING RECORDS

NASCAR Series Driver Speed Time Date
Winston Cup Series R. Wallace 99.309 70.652 6/23/00
Craftsman Truck Series D. Rezendes 91.026 1:39.664 10/4/97

-Dennis

According to this site:

http://www.nascar.com/TRACKS/searspoint/

The qualifing record is 99.3 mph, which comes out to 1:21!!! :eek:

I am assuming that (like watkins glen), Nascar uses a truncated version of the track.... probably for this reason (they don't want to be compared to anybody else).

--Roy

Damn, beat me to it. But at least I had the link and did the math!

:p

--Roy

PS. The track length shown is 2.0 miles.... how long is the track for the alm series?

Aha! The ALMS uses a 2.52 mile version of the track....

http://www.americanlemans.com/races/01sears/factsheet.htm

So, it's not apples to apples. NASCAR, you suck.

--Roy

LUME... NASCAR site lists the time as 70.652 (1:10.652) @ 99.309.

See... Winston Cup Series R. Wallace 99.309 70.652 6/23/00

Am I reading that wrong? NASCAR must use a shorter track than ALMS.

Just for the record, i'm no NASCAR fan, only WRC, BRC, SCCA Rally, BTCC, JGTC, JTCC, F1, and American Sports and Touring Car Racing. No ovals!!!!!!! :)

-Dennis

damn, i didn't know they used different versions of the track. that ruins everything :mad:

btw, the ALMS times i listed are the fastest race times for this past season, not records or qualifing. i couldn't find those.

Yeah, I checked their numbers and came out with 1:20, rechecked and forgot the last conversion.... I still come up with 1:12.5, though....

Anyhoo, the rest stands, ALMS uses a 2.52 mile version of the track and NASCAR uses a 2.0 mile version.....

--Roy

whoops, the records are on the link LUME provided (thanks)

Qualifing

P900: 1:20.683 (112.440mph)

GTS: 1:30.621 (100.109mph)

GT: 1:35.707 (94.789mph)

Winston Cup cars ran the full circuit up until 1997 (I think , could have been '98). I am not sure what the record was, but it would have been relatively close to the ALMS times. Remember that the heavy hitters in ALMS are pretty heavily restricted, so they are not able to get everything the engine has to offer. I believe they try to limit the cars to around 600hp(?), so a Winston Cup car with 750-760 might have a fighting chance. NASCAR may suck, but I'd bet my salary that Jeff gordon can run with anyone in the ALMS. Rusty Wallace, Mark Martin and a few others are very good on roadcourses. For anyone who's really into driving, try to find an MPEG of Ricky Rudd's foot work at the old Sears Point, he's very good and uses the same technique employed by most rally drivers.

It's funny to see people with no racing experience criticize. I am in every sense of the word an amateur and a slow one at that, but I'll be damned if I will criticize anyone who is good enough to do it for a living.

Look at it this way, are you in the top 15-20% of people who do what you do? Most career racers would make you ashamed to call yourself a driver. I've seen guys who never made it into a top level series do things with a car most people would be afraid to try and make it look easy. Think about that the next time you are taking a 90mph bend at 75 and thinking you are on the "limit". :lol:

Oh yeah, wanted to add that a Winston Cupper or lower rung ALMS contestant has to double-clutch or heel-toe the car. Rally drivers, Formula One, CART, they all use semi-auto gearboxes, meaning the computer handles engine management. Audi has an automated launch sequence for their LMP cars so that the driver does not stall on pit out. I know this thread was not a NASCAR bashing one, but I've been reading a lot of these posts saying NASCAR sucks and it annoys me. I am a fan of motorsport, period. I watch everything from motorcycles to vintage road racing. The bottom line is, anyone who is driving professionally is so much better than you or I that we have no real right to criticize on terms of skill. My major issue with drivers are that of character or the lack thereof on the race track.

If you were good, you would be racing. We're all posting here and last I checked, none of us is a F1 pilot or making money racing. We should all go back to our meaningless 9-to-5's and stop being so critical. :D

I agree with TampaWRX (except for taking it that personally, see his last paragraph). I have great respect for anyone that can race for a living. I'd love to be doing it.

I have seen videos of NASCAR drivers at Watkins Glen. Most of them have phenominal footwork. Awe-inspiring.

I have a load of respect for the NASCAR guys too. I'm just not that big of a fan of NASCAR. I actually gained quite a bit of understanding and respect after playing a game on the PC, NASCAR Heat. As ridiculous as it may sound to gain respect for a sport from a computer game, I did. Especially with the challenges. "You're in 6th, get to the front in 3 laps with greasy tires" or "You're in 10th, find a drafting partner and get to the front in 5 laps". Try it out and you'll see what I'm talking about.

-Dennis

jeff gordon is a great driver, no denying it, its just a shame that his talent is constrained to circles for the most part :( however, that analogy goes both ways. do you really think [insert NASCAR driver here] would be able to beat Schumi in an identical F1 car, or stock car for that matter. i find that difficult to believe.

Oh yeah, wanted to add that a Winston Cupper or lower rung ALMS contestant has to double-clutch
or heel-toe the car. Rally drivers, Formula One, CART, they all use semi-auto gearboxes, meaning
the computer handles engine management.

i'm not sure what you mean by this :confused: i'm pretty sure makinen or schumi could heal-toe if they had too :lol:

btw, the P900 cars get there name from approx. hp output. there is no way a winston cup car could keep up with these. they are basically closed wheel F1/CART cars. there is a new class of prototypes that is limited to about 600hp.

Ok tampwrx, now its time for my retort:

I DO RACE. No, I'm not in winston cup or alms, but thats because I don't have the money. Had I the money, i'm pretty sure I could run in winston cup (not win, but run). There isn't much skill in winston cup.... at all. Not because the drivers aren't skilled, but because they haven't had the chance to hone those skills. Racing on 2.5 mile ovals is NOT difficult. When was the last time you saw good footwork at the daytona 500??? oh yeah, there is none.

Here's a prime example. Tommy Kendall (phenomenal road racer who is partially crippled) gets into a sub-par winston cup car, starts 43rd in the pack, and finishes top 10 (this is from a sears point or WG event a couple of years ago). Tommy is NOT considered a top notch driver (although in my opinion he is). Dorsey Schrader has done the same many times.... but because he isn't interested in running ovals 99% of the time, he doesn't get full time rides.

Here are some more reasons why nascar sucks:

still using v-8's designed 50 years ago
still using carburetors designed 50 years ago
does not allow ANY use of composites, except for the drivers helmet.
Rediculously unsafe (allowing drivers to wear openfaced helmets in cars travelling at sustained speeds of 200mph??? W-T-F???)
still using solid axle suspension
still using rwd

how the hell can they call this stock car racing? you can't buy any of those cars with v8's and rear wheel drive. You can't buy any car period with a carburetor!!

I've even heard some drivers (Dale Earnhardt and Daryl Waltrip) complain about how they didn't like roadcourses because the "couldn't pass". They can't pass because they suck.

NASCAR SUCKS.

--Roy

10th Warrior... I thought LMP900 and LMP675 classes were minumum weight restrictions and not horsepower ratings?

Here's the ALMS classes info:

http://alms.americanlemans.com/ALMS/Classes.asp?
TrackID=&EventID=

Here's some Euro LMS info:

http://www.msport-uk.com/features/20010417lemans_series.html

I believe these are the same classes used at the 24 Hours of LeMans.

-Dennis

ALMS is revamping their rules to specifically EXCLUDE Le Mans cars.... I think thats kind of stoopid.... I mean, look at their name for crying out loud.

I hate Nascar it's like watching paint dry. It seems like most of your time watching Nascar is just spent waiting for someone to crash into someone else.

And not all Rally cars use semi-auto transmissions. Mitsu, Sub and Pug's do, Ford doesn't. Any of the pros <b>could</b> use them, but they've got bigger things to worry about... Sheesh.

Ahh, the classic "I have no money" and "You're saying driver Y is better than driver Z" stuff.

If you want to make a living racing and you have the talent you think you do, nothing else should matter and your ability will overcome the lack of funds. Not everyone in the top shelf of racing is of money. I am not ignorant, I realize that money is by far the largest hurdle for most, but it can and has been done without being the son of a wealthy aristocrat.

No, I don't think Jeff Gordon or Michael Andretti or even Alex Zanardi for that matter drive on the level of a Michael Schumacher or a Juan Montoya. I think Makinen would definitely struggle at 200 mph on asphalt with cars all around, but his ability to adapt would determine his fate. Rallying drivers are hard to factor into competitive, side-by-side racing disciplines because of the uniqueness of what they do. I realize they have excellent car control and could probably make a go of it in a regular racing series, but the atmosphere and dynamics of a race weekend are so vastly different for a rally driver than one doing more standard circuit racing, it would take some time to acclimate. I guess that goes for everyone.

NASCAR SUCKS, fine. I'll keep watching it and just about everything else. I'll say it again, if you're good enough to drive in the Winston Cup you're probably good enough to drive anything in North America, so do it. I've known plenty of people who ran SCCA, did this or that in run-offs, etc, etc and claimed that money was their major stumbling block. These same people always seemed to drive nice new cars loaded with modifications, have families and live in nice homes. Wanna know why they really aren't making it? Because they're not spending all their money and time on racing. That's what seperates a professional from an amateur. If you've ever done a racing school, your instructor probably said this more than once. It's not hard to see. Those who are obsessed end up racing for money, those who race on the side o when they can do it as a hobby. Those who are truly good, end up winning, those who are moderately talented make it a job. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Either you are going to pursue a career in racing without consideration of anything else, or you are going to do it as a hobby. Money can get you just about anywhere, but dedication and talent are what allow you to stay. Nicki Lauda was of wealth, but he ended up being damn quick and that's what kept him in F1.

In the end, top level racing is not what it used to be. The greats are all either dead or gray in the hair. I am too young to have witnessed the golden age first hand, but there was a time when 1500hp cars raced around the Can-Am circuits and grand prix drivers raced without seat belts in cars that were essentially rolling gas tanks. You want to see something truly impressive? Watch Stewart's last win at the Nurburgring, when he ran away with a race that was run in fog so thick you can barely see his car as it passes the cameras. Polarizing for or against a certain racing discipline is boring to me. I am a fan of things that go fast and the people who drive them. Watch what you want, think what you want, it doesn't really matter to anyone but you.

If I thought I had genuine talent, I would race anything they put me in. With the opportunity to make millions of $$$ driving stockcars, I think I could get over the 50 year old technology and the multitude of ovals. I've never raced an oval and would much rather watch/participate in road racing, but money is money and I doubt many people on this board took home $5M in prize money/salary last year. :alien:

strafe-you're right about the classes. sorry about that.

Money can get you just about anywhere, but
dedication and talent are what allow you to stay

i couldn't agree more. however, without money to start with you can just about forget about getting to show and develop your talent. not to mention that these days to be a top driver you have to start when your 5-10 years old, which, for those of us who don't come from a racing/gearhead family, absolutely sucks. if i had the money to race i would, but my basically stock subie is stretching the limits. i auto-x and read, which is all i can afford to do. hopefully in spring i'll be able to do a driving school.

as far as nascar goes, i mostly don't like it due to the pathetic cars and boring ovals. mmmm, nothing like pushrods to get your blood boiling. some of the driver (most notably Gordon) do have talent, and, like you said, its the money that attracts them. but watch talledega or one of those super ovals. just about everyone stays on the lead lap, in one big pack. how can you tell me its talent shining through there. some of those races, they don't even have to lift the entire lap. that's just not impressive.

10th Warrior... No problem about the classes. I hope I didn't come off as rippin' you. When I first got into LeMans and ALMS stuff, I couldn't figure out the class thing either. The differences between the cars, Open P, Closed P, GT, GTS, 900, 675. It was driving me nuts not knowing. Know one I knew, knew anything about stuff like that. I finally sat down and read all I could from the Internet. It turned out to be very interesting reading.

I'm doing the same stuff now for all of the SCCA and FIA Rally classes.

One of the reasons I love rallying, touring car racing, and GT racing is because the cars are quite similar to the real road cars, especially Group N. NASCAR would be so much more attractive if the cars were actually "stock" cars. They are nothing like the real cars, except for the stickers of headlights, taillights, and grilles. :) I mean, nice 2 dr. Intrepid and Taurus. Heh. They changed the rules so Ford could stay in NASCAR, which led Dodge to join. Back in the late 60's when the car on the track was real close to the showroom car in looks and engine, that's what NASCAR should be today.

"Now you (I) know, and knowing is half the battle." - G.I. Joe (at the end of every TV cartoon) :)

-Dennis

no, i didn't think you were ripping on me, just letting you know i appreciated the correction.

i feel the same way about touring/rally, hence they are my favorite forms of racing. its nice to see production based cars duking it out, and we get at least some benefit from it, unlike those unlucky taurus owners (although the monte carlo ss is actually pretty fun to drive and i would have considered getting one if it had stiffer springs and was rwd. when are people going to learn that 200hp/fwd/open diff is not good :rolleyes: )

Back in the late 60's when the car
on the track was real close to the showroom car in looks and engine, that's what NASCAR should be
today.

no, no. the problem is that the cars are just like the '60s production cars.

True, but at least then I could go buy a 2 door Daytona Superbird with a 426 Hemi, 2 4bbl. Carbs and do sick burnouts for miles. I can't go to Ford and buy a 2 door Taurus with a 350 (5.7l) in it or to Dodge and buy a 2 door Intepid with a 350 (5.7l). That might actually be fun if they made one of those.

:)

-Dennis