Looks like the dark forces managed to win over a few board members who didn't know or didn't care what the membership wanted. If the "new world order" is a slippery slope (on the outside of an off-camber decreasing radius turn, of course), then we are careening down the bank. I hope it's not too late for a sapling to catch us. :(

Read for yourself: http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/02-01.pdf

Jon;

I'm with you on this, The SCCA has just pushed us down to the bottom, next thay will try and push us all out.(unless you are rich and have a lot of time on your hands)

1) All the new age rules for class are no good !!, Its about good driving not about the age of the cars.

2) Still if you want to run club only ?? Thay do not stop any top pro-teams EVO's WRX's Etc from running at Club rally's for a easy win.... This happens all the time.......

3) This Blows and I hate having to live with it...............

RALLY ON //////////////////////////

Wow Jon this really sucks not only does it hurt many current rallyists it ruins the dreams of drivers hoping to someday be able to afford rallying.

What a great idea, making the sport less accessable!

Money talks...

Maybe it's time for you guys to take your toys and go play somewhere else. But for that your going to need someone who is more interested in organizing than driving, and who's a dynamic enough leader to get others to follow. Otherwise, you're going to just be dictated to by SCCA.

Originally posted by skidplatez
Wow Jon this really sucks not only does it hurt many current rallyists it ruins the dreams of drivers hoping to someday be able to afford rallying.

What a great idea, making the sport less accessable!
noooo.....there go my rally dreams
:(

See Jon... This is exactly why I've decided to go road racing. Road race has always been expensive, but now rally has caught up and passed. Oh well, I give up on rally until I'm making well over 6 figures.

See you at the track,
Brandon

John,

Hopefully, this doesn't have a ripple effect on CARS....

I noticed already it's effect.... On Ben's rally page, there are 4 323 GTX cars for sale.....

It doesn't mean you have a newer car that would be better..... case in point of Andrew Havas in his RX7.....

Robin

Can somebody give me the jist of the new rules?

1) Phase one in the trend to limit ProRally to shiny new cars. The "20 year rule" limits Open, G2 and G5 cars to 1982 and newer models and Production and PGT to 1990 and newer models. That eliminates that pesky Andrew Havas and his late-70s RX7 who would frequently embarass EVOs and STis. :( Further reductions to follow.

2) The ProRally Board can now arbitrarily make rules that take effect instantly (well, as soon as they're published). No more annoying comments from the proles. I hope that a non-favored car doesn't win anything, or they may find themselves with a "competition adjustment" in their trunk.

3) 32mm restrictor on turbo PGT cars. But you can't use engine management or an appropriate turbo. :rolleyes: Those WRXs will be wheezing and sputtering all the way to their 5000RPM redline.

4) You can now be forced to carry an in-car camera (including sound). There is a big fine if you tamper with it in any way.

5) Dual Pro/ClubRally entries (most of the mid-pack folks) will have to start in the back, not up in the order with drivers of equivalent seed/skill.

That's most of the annoying stuff...

I don't know any thing about the rule changes for Rally, but SCCA also made sweeping changes for IT cars that run in road racing club events.
They are now going to allow aftermarket ECM on any IT car that came with EFI. All IT cars that came with carbs must use carbs.
The new ECM must fit into old ECM box.
This will effectivly outdate most older IT cars that make up the largest portion of entries at Club races.
It's hard to understand sometimes the path that the directors take.

Here's Mark Lovell's opinion on the subject... from tonight's chat on Edmunds. I made sure to bring it up!

Any known changes for Rally X rules??

Earlier this season they wanted to ban my GL 1781 CC + 4WD multiplier from production class :mad:

Yes I am under the adjusted CC, they CLAIMED that the Justy was the only legal 4WD there.... ya... right. I'm legal :p

The new rules severely limit my car...
As I read it "all turbocharged cars" will be required to use a 32mm restrictor (including my G5 shadow!!!) and also G5 and G2 are combined for 2002 and if the G5 cars show too much of an advantage they will further restrict us for 2003...

Not to mention the 5 events rule...
Now as it stands it will be nearly impossible for me to run as "ProRally"

CARS is getting my attention (and cash) until SCCA pulls their heads out of their As_es!

I'm not completely put off by the new rules.

20 year rule:
I think the top tier of our sport should be represented by relatively current technology and cars representing the state of the sport.

32mm Restrictor:
Why should a car in PGT that is supposed to be a "Production" vehicle have the same amount of horsepower as an Open car? I agree with this change. It also starts to bring our rule structure closer in line with the FIA.

In car camera:
That is for the top 10 teams in a ProRally. I don't have a problem with that.

Overall:
I think the PRB is on the right track to actually creating a robust professional series with the ProRally program. Unfortunately, the guys (and gals) that run a couple of ProRallys a year are going to get pushed back to ClubRallys. For the most part, I don't think this is a bad thing. If these people get pushed out of ProRally, it will force the growth of the ClubRally programs in each region. This is starting to happen already with the push to generate more events in the NEDiv region, which in the short-term is going to have some growing pains. Larger ClubRally programs will generate more regional interest in the sport (read: easier sponsors, workers, etc...)

I think that most of the people that are opposed to this are thinking too short term. It is going to suck for a couple of years, but I think there will be a big return. My advice to those affected by these changes: get to work on creating or helping to create a ClubRally or Rally-X in your area.

BTW, for those in the NEDiv region that might be interested in organizing a ClubRally: I've got groundwork laid for an event in Bradford, PA. I ran out of available time and schmoozing ability. Please contact me if you are in the area and want to take on organizing and event. I would be available to help with the event and introduce you to all of my contacts.

Jason Williams
Daytime: 814.866.0644
Eve: 814.868.7495
email: jasonw@kdevelopment.com

I think the PRB is on the right track to actually creating a robust professional series with the ProRally program. Unfortunately, the guys (and gals) that run a couple of ProRallys a year are going to get pushed back to ClubRallys. For the most part, I don't think this is a bad thing. If these people get pushed out of ProRally, it will force the growth of the ClubRally programs in each region. This is starting to happen already with the push to generate more events in the NEDiv region, which in the short-term is going to have some growing pains. Larger ClubRally programs will generate more regional interest in the sport (read: easier sponsors, workers, etc...)

The "guys and gals" that like me have invested tens of thousands of dollars of our hard earned money are finding this hard to swallow. Why? Because were not rich or sponsored which is what we would have to be to compete in Pro Rally in the future!

The fact is that we have worked for 3 years setting ourselves up to eventually compete in a full championship season just to get our hopes dashed by SCCA execs seeing dollar signs!
The SCCA started as a grassroots sportscar club where a new competitor could enter a race and eventually climb to the top.
Now ProRally will be For the rich and the sponsored and us poor boys are left out to hang in the less recognised Club Rally.

(removed volatile content:alien: )

quote:

32mm Restrictor:
Why should a car in PGT that is supposed to be a "Production" vehicle have the same amount of horsepower as an Open car? I agree with this change. It also starts to bring our rule structure closer in line with the FIA.
__________________________________________________ __

Why would you support this Jason? The PGT rules state that the amount of air brought into the engine may not be changed. Although you can run any boost level you want and add as much fuel as you need... The restrictive stock air box + a 32mm restrictor+ more boost to compensate for the tiny inlet sounds like a formula for disaster to me. Many WRX, DSM and 323GTX owners have been discussing the engineering stand point on this new restrictor and so far the hypothesis is a lot of turbocharger carnage next season. But only time will tell...

Brandon

PS> Granted 200-270 is the norm for a PGT car, but it is a far cry from an open class car. When was the last time a PGT car won a Pro or ClubRally event overall?

The "guys and gals" that like me have invested tens of thousands of dollars of our hard earned money are finding this hard to swallow. Why? Because were not rich or sponsored which is what we would have to be to compete in Pro Rally in the future!
I'm sure that you have nothing to lose which allows you to make these statements. A little insensitive bud...


I don't have anything to lose? I guess I should have given a little more background about myself. I got into rally in '94 by running service for several teams. I also worked a couple of events and organized a couple of local TSD events. I then decided to build my own car and dropped a large amount of money a built the car. I then went out and won the NEDiv G2 Driver's Championship in '99 (my rookie season). Unfortunately, personal and business issues have kept me from running since that season. I do, however, stay active in the sport by being a licensed tech inspector and working at events whenever possible. I do intend to start driving again when time permits and I plan on being an active ClubRally competitor.


In fact you may just get to see more "cool" cars slide around on dirt and not those old cars...Good for you!
The fact is that we have worked for 3 years setting ourselves up to eventually compete in a full championship season just to get our hopes dashed by SCCA execs seeing dollar signs!
The SCCA started as a grassroots sportscar club where a new competitor could enter a race and eventually climb to the top.
Now ProRally will be For the rich and the sponsored and us poor boys are left out to hang in the less recognised Club Rally.

Why is everyone so down on ClubRally? Is it not good enough for you? This is what I don't understand. Everyone feels like they are getting shut out in some way. I think it is good opportunity for the regional ClubRally programs to really grow and excel. Why not go win a couple of ClubRally overall championships and then secure some real sponsorship to step up to the ProRally series?

I still stand by my opinion that these changes will bring about long term growth for the WHOLE sport (not just ProRally).



brandonl wrote:

Why would you support this Jason? The PGT rules state that the amount of air brought into the engine may not be changed. Although you can run any boost level you want and add as much fuel as you need... The restrictive stock air box + a 32mm restrictor+ more boost to compensate for the tiny inlet sounds like a formula for disaster to me. Many WRX, DSM and 323GTX owners have been discussing the engineering stand point on this new restrictor and so far the hypothesis is a lot of turbocharger carnage next season. But only time will tell...


You were right about the hp issue. I was wrong. I still agree with the change. As I am in agreement that the ProRally program should start to move in the direction of the rest of the world (read: FIA rules). Therefore PGT (in the ProRally Program) should begin to move to group N type regulations. Group N regulations require a 32mm restrictor.

Why not stock powertrain if you really want to see production cars for this class instead of introducing the restricter. If they allow the 32mm restrictor, they need engine management to compenstate for what may be a large change from the stock Fuel maps, etc.



Originally posted by orbit03
32mm Restrictor:
Why should a car in PGT that is supposed to be a "Production" vehicle have the same amount of horsepower as an Open car? I agree with this change. It also starts to bring our rule structure closer in line with the FIA.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"32mm Restrictor:
Why should a car in PGT that is supposed to be a "Production" vehicle have the same amount of horsepower as an Open car? I agree with this change. It also starts to bring our rule structure closer in line with the FIA. "
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What?

ok,

where do you get a proper 32mm restrictor for a WRX with a stock Turbo? (One developed on a dyno for the stock ECU)

how do you mount it properly with out machining the comp housing?(against the rules)

what are the effects on the engine?(there are issues with the stock ECU)

who's PGT car has more HP than who's open class car?(that is driven buy a legit contender in open)

why would anyone want to race a car that has less HP than stock?????(PGT WRX for sale)


who's got the awnsers?


Nat T-stow kicked A in a STOCK WRX, with radio, AC, and FULL interior. The engine was stock, the car weighs 3300#. You think his 227hp was an advantage over Utechts 260hp when he whooped is A in obijwe? No, it was driver talent (not that Mark isn't fast and the rightfull champ).







Peter VanBogart

Why is everyone so down on ClubRally? Is it not good enough for you? This is what I don't understand. Everyone feels like they are getting shut out in some way. I think it is good opportunity for the regional ClubRally programs to really grow and excel. Why not go win a couple of ClubRally overall championships and then secure some real sponsorship to step up to the ProRally series?

I still stand by my opinion that these changes will bring about long term growth for the WHOLE sport (not just ProRally).


I have thought of getting in to Rally for a while now. I have to agree with orbit03 here.

Even in road racing, it's better to start at the local club level, is that any different than the proposed rules? I am genuinely curious on experianced teams answer on this road or rally.

I think these rule changes (most of them anyway) will help the professional pro-rally development.

IMHO, the extra cost is a test of your commitment to the sport.

Chris (and others), don't think that all the < top 10 drivers are annoyed because they don't like the idea of WRC class competition in the U.S. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The issue is that certain elements within the SCCA are attempting to hijack rally and convert the EXISTING series and events that we all know and love to some sort of professional series that excludes most of the teams. That's what's wrong here.

Let's face it--the SCCA is in pretty deep doo-doo financially. They just canned the guy who was in charge of bringing a WRC event to America. He is not being replaced. They have a shoestring budget and no significant sponsorship so they are putting the cart before the horse and excluding existing competitors in the hopes that maybe if there are no ugly Americans around, the rest of the world will come play in our sandbox.

Some people--like Jason, here--are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope that "in a year or two" everything will work itself out. What worries me is that the process is destructive, not constructive. If international rallying and big money series sponsers don't show up, the SCCA will be left holding its **** and the current competitors will get to watch as the best rallies in the country are limited to a few top teams.

And Jason, there's nothing wrong with ClubRally--it's just a name. What's intolerable is that you and I may be prevented from rallying on the wonderful roads of STPR someday because some half-assed SCCA bureaucrat was putting a marketing strategy above the interests of the club's members.

Well said John!

Also...
I may be prevented from rallying on the wonderful roads of STPR someday because some half-assed SCCA bureaucrat was putting a marketing strategy above the interests of the club's members

And how I will miss those roads....
(Blissful thoughts)

Chris (and others), don't think that all the < top 10 drivers are annoyed because they don't like the idea of WRC class competition in the U.S. Nothing could be further from the truth.

what ??:confused:

that could not be further from the truth:(

I don't fully understand the issues and want to hear more opinions what this is about, and how this will affect my desire to rally.

I'm not arguing PRO (hee hee) or CON rules, but insteda of bandwagon whining... I just want to clarify a few things:

> 3) 32mm restrictor on turbo PGT cars. But you can't use engine
> management or an appropriate turbo. Those WRXs will be
> wheezing and sputtering all the way to their 5000RPM redline.

Umm... who says you can't use engine management in PGT ? You can even get ones that fit inside the stock ECU case (i.e. like a Grp N ECU mod).

who (besides me) has actually driven the new impreza with stock ECU and 32mm restrictor with stock turbo, then with a VF30 Grp N turbo (to tell the difference back to back) ?

how many of you actually KNOW that with something like basic aftermarket engine management (i.e. <$1000 USD) and a 32mm with the same turbo the car can actually be faster than it is in stock PGT trim (i.e. stock turbo + stock ECU vs. 32mm and engine mgmnt) ?

Umm... How many people have tried to MAX OUT a PGT Impreza... ever. As in, engine mgmnt, front/center/rear diffs, etc. Zero. Why ? Because you dont f-in need to... and if you did, you would be messed up because you should know that the power aint the problem anyhow...

Just my $0.02.

Hey PVB I just heard, the car is FS... 31k USD. Buy a front cut for 8k, presto...

-Pat

"Umm... How many people have tried to MAX OUT a PGT Impreza... ever. As in, engine mgmnt, front/center/rear diffs, etc. Zero. Why ? Because you dont f-in need to... and if you did, you would be messed up because you should know that the power aint the problem anyhow... "

Exactly my point, as DC said long ago, it would be more appropriate to take all the "threateningly" fast guys and tie one hand behind there back(talent restrictor):devil:

Hey Chris W. Don't let all this whinning affect your plans to rally. Rally is still the best bang for the buck in motorsports. The people are great, the rally organizers/workers are all great, and you can't have this much fun anywhere else in a car. Any time rules are changed it costs money, and anyone that races knows that money is always tight.

What J. Bogert said above is more or less what I see going on. The pro rally series is potentially worth some money, and if the SCCA creates a healthy, popular,and professional appearing product, the manufacturers will be willing to pay more to be involved. And they(the manufacturers) do not want an Orange RX7 on the podium next to their $120,000.00 car, hence the rule changes. It's just making it harder for smaller teams to show there stuff against the real "PROS". Let's face it, they really only need ten fast cars to put on a good TV show. We'll still be there(with Nat's WRX) and we hope to threaten the top 5 again, only this time it will be an open class car instead of a stock WRX. ;)

Hey patr, is that the same GN car you drove in Aus? give me a call, I'm seriously interested in the details.


Peter VanBogart

And they(the manufacturers) do not want an Orange RX7 on the podium next to their $120,000.00 car, hence the rule changes. It's just making it harder for smaller teams to show there stuff against the real "PROS".

Well, I knew this was true... No "self respecting sell your sole to the :devil: marketing type" would promote their product if a 20 year old car would kick it's ass...

On the other hand, maybe that driver should take a chance and build a better car like a subie for instance...

This is all very educational, I would enjoy hearing more "whinning" from the experianced <- said with the best hendrix accent I can muster...

Hmm well I've been sitting on the wrong side of the car far too
long but I'll add my comments.

I'm amazed they've left PGT in. With Grp-N[1-8] in town again
I was expecting to see pgt die in the next 2 years. The
rules to add a restrictor could be the first step.
And I understand that most of the manufacturer $ that
was available in PGT will NOT be there this year. So start
getting your car to N spec.

The PRB rules changes are NOT what Jon has stated. They
are similar but more mild. The only thing that would
go into effect immeadiately would be rules "clarifications",
like the umpteen they've tried with maps.

Changes, additions and deletions still follow the old standard
with a minor change.

Also the G2/G5 thing was sent BACK to the PRB
"for additional consideration" if you read the notes.

Then again theres the mysterious "appendix O" !

Why are people worried about car ages in Pro? What can't you
do with an old car that you could last year? Every event
,save perhaps STPR, should still be open to you, just not in "pro".
Are you a "pro"? For most, I'd have to say 'I think not'.


We've talked for 5-10? years about a real "pro" series but
this past year is the closest its ever come. I feel that we should
have at least in part a series with the newest cars and best
drivers we can. This is the first step. Every year this kind of
"change is bad" comes up.

What I see as the _real_ problem is the complete and total
lack of communication from the BoD, the PRB, and Mr. Vader (kurt)
to the members. So much for member input anyway.
Looks like the manufacturers will/have taken over. Too bad
SCCA has pissed so many of them off over the past couple
years. :( I would have liked to see the US makers get involved
but the BS in club racing has kept them mad at SCCA.
(trunk kits, etc)

And the second large problem? Performance Rally is just too
damn small to make much of an impact in SCCA as a whole.
I don't forsee that changing anytime soon. We can't run event
with 300 marshals PER STAGE, like the WRC events I've been to.
Crap, we're lucky if there are 300 competitors in a division!

Ed