So, I heard a rumor that its possible/ helpful to put a block of ice or even dry-ice on TMIC for a day at the drag strip.

Would this actually provide some benefit? Or would it crack the IC from the temp. differences??

The lip on the bottom of the factory TMIC looks perfect to hold some ice.

Thanks for the feedback.

-Brian

Used to ice down the intake Manifold on a drag SBC... not new tech by any means.

Not sure you will see any gains though, the intercooler should be back to "normal" temp after a burnout and staging...

If you do, a Gallon sized ziplock, w/ ice and salt is the ticket.

Used to ice down the intake Manifold on a drag SBC... not new tech by any means.

Not sure you will see any gains though, the intercooler should be back to "normal" temp after a burnout and staging...

If you do, a Gallon sized ziplock, w/ ice and salt is the ticket.


Stupid question...

Why the salt??

makes the ice water colder... Mythbusters did a show on making a 6-pack cold, and they explain why 100x better than I can. Saltwater is colder then freshwater.

Stupid question...

Why the salt??

salt keeps the ice from melting so fast too. (i think) correct me if wrong.

the intercooler should be back to "normal" temp after a burnout and staging...

And there really is no burnout or staging on a subaru. atleast not wen i race.:D

http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/saltandfreezing/ofwater.html

Its why they use salt to make ice cream!

MT :devil:

http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/saltandfreezing/ofwater.html

Its why they use salt to make ice cream!

MT :devil:

:lol: possibly! Mmmmm......










leaves to go get some ice cream.

Won't hurt to put a bag of ice on the IC, as long as you don't dent/bend the finns.

bag of ice on the IC? Isn't that going to block air going through the IC?

just be careful your not dumping too much water on the track, the owners may not be to happy with that.

bag of ice on the IC? Isn't that going to block air going through the IC?

You remove the bag before you race.


I doubt this will really do much for a turbocharged motor... compressing air increases temperature so about the time your hitting big boost I bet the intercooler is back to the same old temp. Maybe not... but that's my theory.

You can do it in between runs, but I wouldn't leave it on there while actually running it as it will interupt airflow. Anyways, yes it's an old school trick, usually colder IAT's=greater efficiency/power.

bag of ice on the IC? Isn't that going to block air going through the IC?

You just do it between runs, Makes for a more efficient heatsink if it starts out cooler...JMO

I have actually seen pictures of an intercooler that had a "chiller box" built arround it. Basically... before each run the dude would fill the box with dry ice. I'm glad these days we have stuff like cryO2 and nitous sprayers personally... but I guess it helped a bid.

Some dry ice...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/mudslide/194-9466_IMG_R1.jpg

^^wow...

So is that safe for the IC and how long would it last?

Some dry ice...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/mudslide/194-9466_IMG_R1.jpg


:eek: That looks insane!

When I had my TMIC I would take a bag of ice and leave it on the IC between runs. As it melted I would dump the water all over the IC and that really helped get the temperature down fast. I saw a little less that 1 mph increase from doing this vs not doing it.

^^wow...

So is that safe for the IC and how long would it last?

I actually don't know. I've had that picture for a couple of years, just because I'm weird and I collect almost everything that I've ever downloaded.

IIRC, it worked out great, and temperatures REALLY dropped. The frosted IC lasted for at least 5 runs without losing its white frosted look, and even then, it was very cold to the touch.

Some dry ice...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v78/mudslide/194-9466_IMG_R1.jpg

Hey! That's my car!! :devil:

salt keeps the ice from melting so fast too. (i think) correct me if wrong.

the intercooler should be back to "normal" temp after a burnout and staging...

And there really is no burnout or staging on a subaru. atleast not wen i race.:D



So that's why they salt the roads???? Because they don't want the ice to melt???

Salt lowers the freezing point of water. Water freezes at 32 degrees F if you put salt in your water you now can lower the temp of the water below 32 and still have water. The more salt the lower the temp can be.

Dry ice would be the best thing to use. No chance of getting anything wet.

^^wow...

So is that safe for the IC and how long would it last?

I did that ~80 times, 15lbs of dry ice at a time, to that intercooler. It was still holding pressure (19psi) just fine when I took it off the car last fall. I'd have to look at it side by side with another one, but I think it has a "chalky" appearance to the surface now. Of course, that could just be water deposits from rain/carwashes.

Dyno tested.

http://www.landsharksti.com/Ripler-dyno.jpg

most tracks wont let you ice the intake anywhere near stagging lines.

Some get antsy when you show up at the line with "smoke" coming out of your hood scoop too. Never been turned away for dry ice, though.

TheStarter: Hey, man! Your car is smoking!! :eek:
TheRipler: Yeah, I know! *thumbs up* :D

Show them once, and prove it won't be falling on the track. No track I've been to has had a problem with it.

I did that ~80 times, 15lbs of dry ice at a time, to that intercooler. It was still holding pressure (19psi) just fine when I took it off the car last fall. I'd have to look at it side by side with another one, but I think it has a "chalky" appearance to the surface now. Of course, that could just be water deposits from rain/carwashes.

Dyno tested.

http://www.landsharksti.com/Ripler-dyno.jpg

Impressive :)

looks good. I think I will stop by the grocery store on the way home an pick up a block for the visual effect....

so you drive around with pieces of dry ice on your intercooler or you have it on in between runs? And where can you get it from?

You can get dry ice from the grocery store.

I did that ~80 times, 15lbs of dry ice at a time, to that intercooler. It was still holding pressure (19psi) just fine when I took it off the car last fall. I'd have to look at it side by side with another one, but I think it has a "chalky" appearance to the surface now. Of course, that could just be water deposits from rain/carwashes.

Dyno tested.

http://www.landsharksti.com/Ripler-dyno.jpg

You gained 42awtq from putting only dry ice on the intercooler???? :huh:

When you add salt to ice you are not making the ice colder or warmer. The salt lowers the melting point of the solution.

Let me say this again: When you add salt to ice you are not making the ice colder or warmer!

It turns out that our bodies are bad instruments for measuring temperature. This is because our bodies feel heat transfer, not temperature. This is why it “feels” colder when it’s windy. The wind increases the amount of heat transfer from our body. This is known as the “wind chill factor”.

So now you know, when you add salt to a bucket of ice you are not warming the ice up or cooling it down!

A lot of people do not know this, but ice can get colder than 32F. If you have your freezer set at -20F the ice inside will be at -20F.

A well stirred ice bath of pure water and ice made from pure water will always be 32F, and it will be 32F no matter how much or how little ice is in the ice bath! If you have an ice bath with 100 ice cubes the temperature of the water will be 32F. If you have an ice bath with 1 ice cube the temperature of the water will be 32F. Cool huh!?! If you try to experiment with this at home be sure to stir well.

http://freespace.virgin.net/m.eckert/new_pa6.gif

There are a couple reasons why ice cubes are not as good as ice cubes melted with salt.

Contact resistance: An ice cube is a solid, and pushing two solids together will leave air gaps between the two objects. This reduces the heat transfer.

Localized melting. The ice cube can develop a film of water on it, and that film of water will be no colder than 32F.

Contact area. Unless you have something frozen in a block of ice the contact area between the object and the ice will probably be very small.

Hmmm, I wonder if I can add a block of dry ice to my TMIC and still be DS legal?

so you drive around with pieces of dry ice on your intercooler or you have it on in between runs? And where can you get it from?

I let 3 5lb blocks sit for ~20 minutes, and it looks like the picture. It was 80F, and relatively high humidity the day the pic was taken. 100% of the white around the sides and bottom of the IC is water frozen out of the air. My IR pyrometer only goes to -26F, and once it looked like that, it was at it's limit. The dry ice is -109F.

You can get it from the grocery store, but that is expensive. ($1-2/lb) I go to a wholesaler out of the yellow pages, and get varying prices from $.37-.63/lb. They have an added benefit of cutting it to your desired thickness. Standard is 3", I generally get 1.5" slices 100lb+ at a time. Volume discounts apply. The wholesaler guys tend to enjoy when you tell them what you're doing too. :) "You're going to do what?" "That works?" :lol:

You gained 42awtq from putting only dry ice on the intercooler???? :huh:

On an AP stage 2 '04 STi LWG 92 map.

Hmmm, I wonder if I can add a block of dry ice to my TMIC and still be DS legal?

I don't think so. Auto-x guys are picky about these things. I've never done a real Auto-x, and I remember they didn't like me asking about this.

"You're going to do what?"

:lol: :lol:

When you add salt to ice you are not making the ice colder or warmer. The salt lowers the melting point of the solution.

Let me say this again: When you add salt to ice you are not making the ice colder or warmer!

It turns out that our bodies are bad instruments for measuring temperature. This is because our bodies feel heat transfer, not temperature. This is why it “feels” colder when it’s windy. The wind increases the amount of heat transfer from our body. This is known as the “wind chill factor”.

So now you know, when you add salt to a bucket of ice you are not warming the ice up or cooling it down!

A lot of people do not know this, but ice can get colder than 32F. If you have your freezer set at -20F the ice inside will be at -20F.

A well stirred ice bath of pure water and ice made from pure water will always be 32F, and it will be 32F no matter how much or how little ice is in the ice bath! If you have an ice bath with 100 ice cubes the temperature of the water will be 32F. If you have an ice bath with 1 ice cube the temperature of the water will be 32F. Cool huh!?! If you try to experiment with this at home be sure to stir well.

http://freespace.virgin.net/m.eckert/new_pa6.gif

There are a couple reasons why ice cubes are not as good as ice cubes melted with salt.

Contact resistance: An ice cube is a solid, and pushing two solids together will leave air gaps between the two objects. This reduces the heat transfer.

Localized melting. The ice cube can develop a film of water on it, and that film of water will be no colder than 32F.

Contact area. Unless you have something frozen in a block of ice the contact area between the object and the ice will probably be very small.
So is there anything else that can lower the melting point the same or more? Which salt is better to use and how much?

Adding salt to ice does lower the temperature of the mixture. The salt absorbs heat as it melts the ice. A NaCL and ice mix will cool down to a minimum of -21.1 deg C .

Larry

Actually any salt will work, but in my experiments it is not too useful in the real world, as you end up with salt crystals on the intercooler, and the cooling is too slow to be very useful in a drag racing environment unless you make a large bag of salt ice mix, and then you need to figure out what to do with that bag of mixture when you want to make the run.

Larry

most tracks wont let you ice the intake anywhere near stagging lines.

They won't let you it with H2O ice... they might let you use dry ice because dry ice goes strait from a solid to a gas so there is no water to drip on the track.

Oh yeah, and Mythbusters checked ways to cool your beer quickest... salt/ice water works way better than ice water. Salt is also used in making icecream. :)

In Japan they used to put the ice in the Air Intake chamber where the filter would go and use a panty hose to put around the ice incase it was to break apart. That way it wouldnt be sucked into the chamber. It also looks completly stock and does not leak on the track. After the run they would remove it and dry out the box.

Everyone knows a little water wont hurt anything.

Jay-R

I did that ~80 times, 15lbs of dry ice at a time, to that intercooler. It was still holding pressure (19psi) just fine when I took it off the car last fall. I'd have to look at it side by side with another one, but I think it has a "chalky" appearance to the surface now. Of course, that could just be water deposits from rain/carwashes.

Dyno tested.

http://www.landsharksti.com/Ripler-dyno.jpg

nice data!

:banana:

Adding salt to ice does lower the melting/freezing point of the mixture. The salt does not absorb heat as it melts the ice. A saturated NaCL and ice mix will remain a liquid to a minimum of -21.1 deg C .

Larry

Much better.

Adding salt to ice does lower the melting/freezing point of the mixture. The salt dissolved in the water changes the free energy balance causing the mixture to absorb heat as the mixture moves back toward equalibrium and additional ice melts. The new equalibrium point of an NaCL and ice/water mix is -21.1 deg C, which is the lowest temperature the NaCl Ice water mix can cool as it reaches equalibrium.

Different fancy words to express the same practical concept.

http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/solutions/faq/thermo-explanation-of-freezingpoint-depression.shtml

Thanks for picking nits, now do you have anything constructive to add?

Larry

Nope, nothing constructive