^^^^^
doesn't really fall into any of the ST Classes....it doesn't look like


Bill

what else is done to it?

if nothing, put some stickies on it and run AS.


ST classes are for non sports cars. I believe the S2000 is specifically banninated from ST classes.

Nope. There's talk of the SCCA creating a new STX2 class in the coming years and some regions (I think Pilly is one) will run this class within their regions in '07.

If your club has a great demand for this street tire class, you may want to suggest that they create it for their members.

what else is done to it?

if nothing, put some stickies on it and run AS.

intake, exhaust, lowering springs...

Reason I am asking...i am my region's Tech steward....so I know it would be BSP
iff'n he had race rubber...but he wants to run Street tires....so I put him in STU....just for arguments sake....

a- to give the local STU Guys some competition
b- to facilitate him not wanting to run Race Rubbers and not be competitive.
c- novice anyways..

Can I "invent" a class....

Say for the Slightly modified STX "2" entrant that we occasionally get...
for like the everything that would "normally" be BSP except in a STreet tired Version of it..

Bill

D: Not classed in ST.

I would make sure that someone in STU isn't going to get their panties in a wad over that move. S2Ks are faster than EVOs and STis in AS. Not to mention, in STU, AWD cars can only run 245s and the S2K, if they fit, 275s.

As someone else said, regions are free to run any classes they deem necessary. If there's demand for an STX2/STU2, the region can run it.

I would put an S2K in an STU2 class with all the other not classed AS/BS cars, if our region ran it. I would talk to the board for your region and talk about creating the add'l class. STU2 or even "STZ" where cars not specifically classed in ST can come play, minus sports cars. I'd even allow older, non-turbo Porsches.

--kC

Why not just use a street tire index? Isn't that relatively popular in local clubs?

I ran ESP with re92s last week. I wish I could run STU with street tires and my ESP boost levels. Catch my dorifto? :p

D: Not classed in ST.

I would make sure that someone in STU isn't going to get their panties in a wad over that move. S2Ks are faster than EVOs and STis in AS. Not to mention, in STU, AWD cars can only run 245s and the S2K, if they fit, 275s.

As someone else said, regions are free to run any classes they deem necessary. If there's demand for an STX2/STU2, the region can run it.

I would put an S2K in an STU2 class with all the other not classed AS/BS cars, if our region ran it. I would talk to the board for your region and talk about creating the add'l class. STU2 or even "STZ" where cars not specifically classed in ST can come play, minus sports cars. I'd even allow older, non-turbo Porsches.

--kC

^^^ as long as they were Street tired.....correct..

You guys know the ones....they show up...not having any clue whatsoever...and if you throw them into where they supposed to be...on street tires...they get killed by the "r" guys...

The ultimate goal is bring them back again...correct>...

Ok....I will propose this to our board...(makes sense to me, that way they still have fun, and they might come back...;))

Bill

Oh...and they are not EVEN close to limit of the rules....
so that guy that has the Pirelli P6 225's on the back of his S2000...isn't a huge threat to win....He's just running Streets...;)
Bill

Why not just use a street tire index? Isn't that relatively popular in local clubs?

I think I know the one....

like example:

AS (ST)
BS (sT)

BSP (ST)



(ST=Street tire)

where are the Pax index's for these..????

Bill

Some regions run a whole 'nuther set of Street Tire classes for people that don't want to make the investment to r-comps. They have come up with their own indexing for these classes.

I agree with the 'coming back for more' philosophy, but be ready for the onslaught of regulars and old timers going "but we have too many classes already!". This is where our region folds to the pressure. To a point, I have to agree. There already are classes available where the car is legal in.

If they're beginners, then it should be up to the organizers/old-timers to remove the thought of actually WINNING from the n00bs head, and instill the whole, "times don't matter in the beginning, it's about learning and having fun" mantra.

We've all heard it, we all say it. Winning shouldn't be considered for a n00b.

Creating extra classes just so one or two people 'feel better about themselves at a local event' is the wrong reason to create a class. Create one only if quite a few people have mentioned interest (more than 1-2).

Creating new classes isn't like a 'if you build it, they will come', it's more of seeing a need and making it happen.

I can go either way on creating new classes for a few people, just saying don't be surprised to be questioned on it all.

--kC

KC...I agree....and I understand "that" mentality..but right now...we avg about 100 plus on Local Events....and I would say about 10 % of those are complete newbs...During the Summer...it more like 150ish...

Not to worried about the board...and thats all the decision we need...;)

Bill

my car is the same.

There is no touring class that I can fall in. It goes.... BS, ASP, SM2, XP.

Wanna hear something funny? S2000 goes from AS to BSP against other AS cars. My car goes from BS to ASP against all the SS cars.

The argument is the newer M Roadster has the S54 motor and is in AS, the you can update. Well then that car should go to BSP with the S2k, right? Well, it doesn't and we one has been able to have a successful petition to get it changed.

Here in So. Cal we have what we call SK1 and SK2. SK1 is all SS/AS/BS cars on street tires, and SK2 has the rest of the stock classes.

Winners are calculates by factoring raw time*PAX Index*ST Index I can't remember off the top of my head what the ST Index is at the moment.

Both classes are hugely popular.

Here in So. Cal we have what we call SK1 and SK2. SK1 is all SS/AS/BS cars on street tires, and SK2 has the rest of the stock classes.

Winners are calculates by factoring raw time*PAX Index*ST Index I can't remember off the top of my head what the ST Index is at the moment.

Both classes are hugely popular.

Perfect....if you can find out what they use for PAX index...that would be great..

Bill

<flame suit>

yet another example which proves how antiquated the SCCA solo class struture is...

"stock" cars. don't come with R-comps...

people need to seriously go back to when the original rules were started... before AutoX R-compounds... were even available... and re-start a class structure on that premise.

IMO>.
we shouldn't have seperate "street-tire classes" we should have seperate R-comp classes.

the division between stock and street prepared.. should be in this range...
or adopt a NASA type points structure for all cars not fitting into a traditional prepared or mod class..

</flame suit>

Well, that PAX indexes are the regular PAX indexes that we all use, The ST Index is 0.980.

Slight correcttion in what I said before, FS goes in SK1 as well.

Giving a n00b a $3 trophy isn't going to be enough to retain them. They need to understand what drives someone to autocross and it isn't the trophies. It is a combination of the challenge put down by the course and the friends you make at the events. I think a mentoring program is going to accomplish a lot more in regards to retaining n00bs then any number of street tire classes.

To me, the S2K should be in STU. Sure, it beats the EVO/STi in AS, but unlike the EVO/STi, the s2k can actually get CAMBER. It has fewer problems in stock trim. It also has less room to improve when you start applying ST mods. You aren't going to find 30whp in an S2k. Seems like a great fit to me.

Oh boy, this should get good. Yet another SCCA bitch fest.

Go get em KC!

Chris H.

Bill, if you go to www.solo2.com and download the 2007 Rules (Tab on the left hand side), you can see a full decription of how it works).

<flame suit>

yet another example which proves how antiquated the SCCA solo class struture is...

"stock" cars. don't come with R-comps...

people need to seriously go back to when the original rules were started... before AutoX R-compounds... were even available... and re-start a class structure on that premise.

IMO>.
we shouldn't have seperate "street-tire classes" we should have seperate R-comp classes.

the division between stock and street prepared.. should be in this range...
or adopt a NASA type points structure for all cars not fitting into a traditional prepared or mod class..

</flame suit>

No flame suit needed here...I agree....wholeheartedly...

Bill

<flame suit>

yet another example which proves how antiquated the SCCA solo class struture is...

"stock" cars. don't come with R-comps...

people need to seriously go back to when the original rules were started... before AutoX R-compounds... were even available... and re-start a class structure on that premise.

IMO>.
we shouldn't have seperate "street-tire classes" we should have seperate R-comp classes.

the division between stock and street prepared.. should be in this range...
or adopt a NASA type points structure for all cars not fitting into a traditional prepared or mod class..

</flame suit>

Antiquated? Sure. Does it work? You bet it does. Find me ANY other motorsports event that draws nearly 1200 COMPETITORS for a single four day event and come back.

BTW, NASA's points based system is more borked then anything the SCCA could come up with. The constant flux that plagues these points based classing systems is a major deterrent to the big players. Add to that a lack of real national competition and you get a club that doesn't draw the sort of people that would figure out how to max out every single point. IF NASA could ever draw the same level of competitiveness that the SCCA does, you'd have the same problem of n00bs showing up with woefully underprepped cars for their class.

Here in Milwaukee they'd be in the indexed street tire class (R for rear wheel drive) w/ an SP index.

We have two (or three depending on org.) street tire classes. They usually make up over half the field, and are where most of the noobs go to play.

They run w/ the normal PAX index, so they're not going to compete on overall results, but in class, it ends up being decently competitive. The biggest problem is that GS and HS are at an advantage, since the higher classes can't put the power down.

<flame suit>

yet another example which proves how antiquated the SCCA solo class struture is...

"stock" cars. don't come with R-comps...

people need to seriously go back to when the original rules were started... before AutoX R-compounds... were even available... and re-start a class structure on that premise.

IMO>.
we shouldn't have seperate "street-tire classes" we should have seperate R-comp classes.

the division between stock and street prepared.. should be in this range...
or adopt a NASA type points structure for all cars not fitting into a traditional prepared or mod class..

</flame suit>

Stock is not a representative term of the class, it is a prep level. Do you think a Nascar stock car is a stock car? No it is a level of prep.

btw there was a time, 96' or 97', you could order your Camaro SS from the dealer with a spare set of wheels and BFG R1 tires.

Everyone thinks the grass is greener on the other side, they just have a different set of problems. There is no Nasa autocross in Socal, must be a big demand for that points system. ;)

Keep in mind the street tires you have access to today are every bit as fast and sticky as the R tires of the early 90s. You can try to impose and artificial tire rule, like tread-ware rating, the tire engineers will find a way a round.

Keep in mind the street tires you have access to today are every bit as fast and sticky as the R tires of the early 90s. You can try to impose and artificial tire rule, like tread-ware rating, the tire engineers will find a way a round.

Especially since tread-wear ratings aren't standardized.

Although they have excluded certain tires where the mfr took an R-compound and doubled the tread depth to get the rating above the limit.

Here is another idea for you.

At some point we chose to run a womens class in our club. We didn't do it because the women were not competitive.....we did it because they were very competitive with one another. The problem is that you have a handful of women show up, and there cars are no where near being in the same class.

So with the womens class. We took the class the car is classed in. We then factor their time in class against the guys.

Lets say a ladies is in class x. She finishes 4th out of 6 cars. Another lady in class y finishes 6th out of 12 cars. The first gets factored at .666, where the second lady is at .500. So in the ladies class, the women from class Y wins.
The factor the best time against the best time in class as the tie break or something like that.
The ladies "class" is just a supplement, more for bragging rights than anything.
Sounds more complicated than it is.
Basically, I think you could have a "novice" class setup in the same way. Put them out against the veterans, but give them a score in their own class. Yet they can still see how they do against the old timers.
Of course if every novice that shows up finishes last in class.....its garbage, and you have to factor their times against the class winner anyway....so that might wise to do from the start.
That being said, we don't handle the novices that way.
We don't use the scca pax. We group the novices together in their own class, even though their cars may be completely different. If a novice places third or better in two events a year, they are bumped out of novice to their regular class. We find that the novices like this setup despite having big differences in the modifications to the car. Most novices show up with mods that are not necessarily a benefit to them in an autox. Their experience is the limiting factor. Placing them all together tends to be positive experience as they are able to share the misery of learning to be fast on an autox course.

Especially since tread-wear ratings aren't standardized.

Although they have excluded certain tires where the mfr took an R-compound and doubled the tread depth to get the rating above the limit.


The P Zero is the only tire on the exclusion list for ST. Not even near the performance of the R tires in stock.

Sure would be fun to dig up a A008RSII and compare it to a Advan.

The P Zero is the only tire on the exclusion list for ST. Not even near the performance of the R tires in stock.

Sure would be fun to dig up a A008RSII and compare it to a Advan.

The PZero was put on the exclusion list because every one of the sizes except one was a 60 treadwear. One of the sizes and only one was molded at a significantly deeper tread depth and carried a 140 treadwear. So it wasn't necesarrily put on the list because it was a cheater R-comp but rather because of the issue with it only having a single size so it wouldn't be available to most cars in ST.

That and I believe they have to offer a number of sizes per SCCA mandate for it to be legal for ST classes.

That and I believe they have to offer a number of sizes per SCCA mandate for it to be legal for ST classes.
Isn't that rule only valid for the R-comp classes?

The idea being that nobody is going to make a single-size street tire.

D. Within each tire model, the sizes which are available must be
equally available to all competitors. Tire model variations differing
from standard specification, delivered only on a limited
basis, or only to selected competitors, may not be used.
E. No racing tire or recap (on any casing) may be used.
F. Each tire model must be sold in at least four rim diameters, with
a total of at least six sizes.

ST classes follow the same rules as stock classes with the exception of 13.3F

F is what I was thinking originally, but B covers that without listing the number of sizes that need to be available.

Note: this is all from the 2006 handbook. I don't have the 07 book at work.

I started out autocrossing in sort of the same boat. I had a 1995 Civic EX (oh yes, ricer) with intake, header, exhaust, springs, and upgraded street tires. They put me in CSP and I got my ass waxed all season by Miatas, and like 6-time CSP nationals champ in an old Alfa and was inches away from quitting, until I read online that I could have been in STS the whole time. Gee, a whole season wasted, but it was a lot more fun the next year.

ST classes follow the same rules as stock classes with the exception of 13.3F

F is what I was thinking originally, but B covers that without listing the number of sizes that need to be available.

Note: this is all from the 2006 handbook. I don't have the 07 book at work.B only deals with the date or allowance for the current competition year. It has to be produced/approved by April 30. If the tire changes a little 'after' April 30, then it may be considered a new model and not allowed. (*may*). Anything other than that, is fair game, in ST... even if it really *is* only in one size, as long as the tire was available by April 30.

The PZero was banned because it was an R-Compound in sheeps clothing.

--kC

ST classes follow the same rules as stock classes with the exception of 13.3F

F is what I was thinking originally, but B covers that without listing the number of sizes that need to be available.

Note: this is all from the 2006 handbook. I don't have the 07 book at work.


Those do not apply to ST.

B only deals with the date or allowance for the current competition year. It has to be produced/approved by April 30. If the tire changes a little 'after' April 30, then it may be considered a new model and not allowed. (*may*). Anything other than that, is fair game, in ST... even if it really *is* only in one size, as long as the tire was available by April 30.

The PZero was banned because it was an R-Compound in sheeps clothing.

--kC
I meant D. the part highlighted in red.

Those do not apply to ST.
Read the hand book.


14.3 TIRES
Tires must meet the eligibility requirements of the Stock category (excluding
13.3.F), with the following additional restrictions:
A. Tires may have widths up to and including 225.
B. Tires must have a minimum tread wear rating of 140.
C. Tire models must not appear on the following list, which may be
altered at any time by the SEB upon notification of the membership.
Pirelli P Zero Corsa

13.3 TIRES
Any tire which is OE on a car eligible for Stock Category may be used.
Non-OE tires must meet the following requirements to be eligible for
use in Stock category:
A. The tire must not appear on the following list, which may be
altered at any time by the SEB upon notification of membership.
No tire models are currently listed.
B. No tire models will be approved for competition during the rest
of the year after April 30 of each calendar year. Each eligible tire
model must meet all requirements of Section 13.3 by April 30,
and must continue to meet them thereafter. A tire model will
normally be determined by the designation in the Tire Guide.
However, any of the following changes or similar changes (as
determined by the SEB) will also be considered to represent a
new model for eligibility purposes, even if the designation does
not change: change of tread pattern at either full or partial tread
depth; characterization by the manufacturer or distributor of a
tire as “new” after April 30.
A tire model which was previously allowed by these rules continues
to be legal until specifically disallowed. This follows
years of precedence on eligibility for discontinued tire models.
If a manufacturer reintroduces a tire model which was previously
discontinued, that tire will be considered a new model.
Therefore, it will have to meet the rules specified in SR Section
13.3 including the April 30 introduction date.
C. The model of tire must be listed in a current or previous two
years of the Tire Guide and Tread Design Guide, or otherwise be
approved by the SEB. The tire model must have Department of
Transportation approval.
D. Within each tire model, the sizes which are available must be
equally available to all competitors. Tire model variations differing
from standard specification, delivered only on a limited
basis, or only to selected competitors, may not be used.
E. No racing tire or recap (on any casing) may be used.
F. Each tire model must be sold in at least four rim diameters, with
a total of at least six sizes.
G. Tire must fit the allowable wheels and fender wells without
modification.
H. Each tire must have non-zero measurable tread depth (i.e.,
points where it is possible to obtain positive measurement values)
as described in Section 3.3.D. Tires may not have cord
visible at any time during competition.


The part highlighted in Red would put the Pzero corsa out of the acceptable tires even if it wasn't on the list. There is a difference in the model line that is not available to all competitors (read: sizes)

No that size is equally available to all competitors. Just because you can't fit that size on your car does not make the tire illegal.

That part of the rule is to try to prevent contract drivers from getting special tire sizes that are not available to other drivers (see the protest at nationals this past year about tire sizes not available to all drivers)

No that size is equally available to all competitors. Just because you can't fit that size on your car does not make the tire illegal.

That part of the rule is to try to prevent contract drivers from getting special tire sizes that are not available to other drivers (see the protest at nationals this past year about tire sizes not available to all drivers)
please read the part that says: "Within each tire model..*snip*..Tire model variations differing from standard specification"

The model has a specific size that differs from the standard specification.

This really isn't that hard guys. :rolleyes:

Moxnix has the right idea - 13.3.D is about making cheater tires for contract drivers.

As an example, tire model ABC uses rubber compound XXX for general distribution but puts rubber compound YYY in ABC for the contract drivers. The XXX ABC tire would be legal for competition, but the YYY ABC tire would not be.

Or as moxnix pointed out, a tire size that is not available to all competitors equally. Say, BCD tire is legal for competition and available in a 265/55-16 to the general public, but also comes in a 310/20-19 size that is ONLY given to the contract drivers. The 265 BCD would be legal for competition, but the 310 BCD would not be.

But there is precedent for a tire coming in only one size and being legal for ST competition. Given the limited availability, I would guess it might have been added to the exclusion list, except it is an OE tire (for the STi I believe). I would guess the STAC doesn't want to make it illegal to use the tires that came stock on your car, at least as long as they're not total cheater tires.

Read the hand book.






The part highlighted in Red would put the Pzero corsa out of the acceptable tires even if it wasn't on the list. There is a difference in the model line that is not available to all competitors (read: sizes)

I know the rules... You had F in bold and it does not apply. Also D would not apply to the P Zero, it is sold as specd by the builder, the fact that one tire in the line is not the same as the rest of the P Zeros do not matter. The rule is to keep "custom built" tires out. If they were to make a custom P Zero for natls that was different from the rest of the line they sell to the public D would come in. The fact that they only build one size again does not apply because F does not apply to ST.

please read the part that says: "Within each tire model..*snip*..Tire model variations differing from standard specification"

The model has a specific size that differs from the standard specification.

This really isn't that hard guys. :rolleyes:

You are right it is not that hard, I don't know why you dont get it.

The Spec for the 215-45-17 is 8/32nds, that is the spec for that tire from the manufacture. We know that 13.3.f does not apply so that one tire on its own is legal, if they make other sizes or not does not matter. So the only way to keep this potential killer tire out is to put it on the exclusion list. If the 13.3.d was enough to keep the tire out it would not need to be on the exclusion list.

I understand what you are getting at.

We run a failry large "Tire" class here in the Texas region. Everyone running in the "T" Class is grouped together. And their times are scored on an indexed scale based on normal pax score. So B-Stock "Tire" and CSP "Tire" would carry the same pax scores as their perspective r-compound classed. Only that the tires classes are seperate from the rest of competition.

You can see some example at www.autocross.com/tr/

FYI, I would agree that the S2000 would be great for an STU2 class. I'd also put the 350Z there.

We run a failry large "Tire" class here in the Texas region. Everyone running in the "T" Class is grouped together. And their times are scored on an indexed scale based on normal pax score. So B-Stock "Tire" and CSP "Tire" would carry the same pax scores as their perspective r-compound classed. Only that the tires classes are seperate from the rest of competition.

You can see some example at www.autocross.com/tr/

FYI, I would agree that the S2000 would be great for an STU2 class. I'd also put the 350Z there.

exactly....what I was thinkin:D......thanks