A set of videos has been made by a WI enthusiast with good engineering background, they demonstrated the main difference between the two types of systems current offered. Those who took up the offer of the Aquamist HFS-5 (HSV) should feel their investment is well justified.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/3903020622.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4724394)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/3903020695.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4724393)

Videos...
Click here to watch fastswtiching (http://media.putfile.com/fastswtiching)
Click here to watch pumpjump (http://media.putfile.com/pumpjump)
Click here to watch lag-20-33 (http://media.putfile.com/lag-20-33)
Click here to watch spraypulses (http://media.putfile.com/spraypulses)

The link is very fresh, I got it yesterday. Many thanks to the video maker.

Wow! Thanks for sharing the link Richard!

I thought I was doing the right thing jumping on the GB buy when I saw it! Now I know I was justified in getting it, over my current SMC setup.

o great edmund, make me regret getting your smc setup because i'm cheap and cant afford the aquamist setup that i want

interesting that they're both shurflo pumps though if i'm not mistaken, just different/newer model i presume?

Yep, it looks like the pump on the left is much smoother. I would recommend, though, to get a true comparison of the hose pulses and delayed shutoff that both hoses should be the same length. :)


So, slightly off topic, didn't Aquamist develop the system that Perrin sells? If so, what type of pump does the Perrin kit have?

The videos has been redone with short hose. here is the new set up.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4018045928.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4735696)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4018045870.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4735695)


http://media.putfile.com/A-14-81
http://media.putfile.com/B-97
http://media.putfile.com/C-24

So, slightly off topic, didn't Aquamist develop the system that Perrin sells? If so, what type of pump does the Perrin kit have?

It uses a piston pump. Perrin commissioned us to build a system for them last year.

;) @ this thread.

I became savvy to this "issue" with some careful consideration and testing of my own during my prep work for Some Other Kit. Sold it before install.

You get what you pay for, people.

my work internet won't let me view the video - can someone give me the synopsis

guy basically has 2 pumps bench mounted, with pump outlets running straight into an injector. he rapidly touches the power wire on the pump to the pos. terminal of a car battery and you can see both injectors misting in a rapid-style format. aquamist's valve is instant on/off syncronized with the power connection. the conventional pump has some lag. you can see the pulses but it never really stops injecting. and the conventional pump leaks water when it's shut off (but no check valve is apparent in this setup).

misting patterns look to be identical when both pumps are on constant, except the non-Aquamist setup you can see pulses within the spray pattern... aquamist is 100% constant.

gotcha thanks for the reply, I wonder the specs on both pumps

It uses a piston pump. Perrin commissioned us to build a system for them last year.

And for reference, what types of pumps are in the video...ie: what type is the "smooth" one and what type is the "pulsing" one? Are all Aquamist pumps the "smooth" style, or do the cheaper kits have pumps that pulse?

the difference is controlling injection with a high speed valve (aquamist) or by pump duty (typical cheap injection kit)

-Franz

Do all aquamist systems come with the more accurate pulsing setup?

And for reference, what types of pumps are in the video...ie: what type is the "smooth" one and what type is the "pulsing" one? Are all Aquamist pumps the "smooth" style, or do the cheaper kits have pumps that pulse?

The aquamist pump using an internal by-pass valve so that the excess pressure is diverted back into the inlet port, very similar arrangement as the fuel injection system in your car. Further pulses are absorbed by the small inline accumulator.

The other pump is just a "off the shelf" item. Excess pressure is controlled by a demand switch. Every time the water pressure reaches the set pressure, power is cut. This made the flow pulsed abruptly.

Note: it doesn't mean the other pump doesn't work because it is cheaper. I believe you can convert it into a by-pass pump system quite easily. By converting it, you might loose the progressiveness of your pump-speed based system.

Wow, the difference is very apparent when you set these up side by side. :banana:

Those progresive pumps dribble like an old man hance the need for a chack valve (or an HSV). that jerking in this vid can't be good for the longevity of the motor: http://media.putfile.com/pumpjump

The pulsing and dribble may not look significant on the video, but in practice, it is not ideal.

The following plot was sent to me by a user (minus checlvalve), you can see the pulsing actually affected the flow at steady boost.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/scott/take4-2s.gif

If a cracked checkvalve was placed inline, it would solve the "run-on" problem but in the expense of operating range. You will also notice there is no RPM enrichment above wastegate pressure.

it is hard to belive but the datalogs dont lie.

a methanol dribble really worries me... especially if its at the port

Richard, in that graph, it was merely a pump with no check valve whatsoever? In your opinion what would occur if there was a high-psi checkvalve in-line?

So where can I pick up an accumulator for my Coolingmist setup

Richard, in that graph, it was merely a pump with no check valve whatsoever? In your opinion what would occur if there was a high-psi checkvalve in-line?
It is correct the other pump does not haver an inline checkvalve.
The dribble will stop when the system pressure drop below the checkvalve pressure.. For example, using a 20psi crack checkvalve, if the progressive system ramps up to 150 psi and the throttle snaps shut, the dribble will continue until it drops below 20psi. So the dribble spans across a pressure drop of 130psi.
Consequentially, if the dribble span duration is less if the system pressure is lower.
If you put a 149psi crack checkvalve inline on a 150psi, the dribble is almost zero.

I would not recommend using a checkvalve with a very high cracking pressure. It will also limit your progressive system range.

double posted

So where can I pick up an accumulator for my Coolingmist setup

You cannot use an accumulator with a pump speed progressive system.

Examine the flow curve (Blue) against the boost curve (Red) carefully, you can see the flow is always lagging behind the boost pressure. (ignore those flow fluctuations for the moment). The lag is caused by the inertia of the rotating motor.

If you put an accumulator inline, the lag will be far greater, you don't want to make it any worse.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/scott/take4-2s.gif

You cannot use an accumulator with a pump speed progressive system.

Examine the flow curve (Blue) against the boost curve (Red) carefully, you can see the flow is always lagging behind the boost pressure. (ignore those flow fluctuations for the moment). The lag is caused by the inertia of the rotating motor.

If you put an accumulator inline, the lag will be far greater, you don't want to make it any worse.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/scott/take4-2s.gif

I think I understand your engine fuel system analogy better now.
Correct me if I'm wrong...

Your system is going to vary it's cycle time to adjust flow, since flow is going to be at a constant pressure. Shorter cycle time for more flow, longer for less flow.

Whereas the progressive systems will vary motor speed, thus flow will increase or decrease accordingly.

Yes, this is correct.

The constant pressure "progressive valve" system guarantees high pressure on each pulse cycle.
The variable speed "progressive pump speed" system starts with low pressure and ramps up the high pressure relative to boost or air mass.

The biggest difference is the response time between cycles, it can go from 100% to 0% to 100% flow in less than 1/250th second.
From one of the video, you can can how quickly it responded to rapid firing pulses, compare it with the progressive pump speed system.

richard...

is there any way to get the price of an HSV down?

:)

ken

I have been trying very hard to do this, the magnetic core is made from a supplier who holds a patent on the manufacturing process of the material.

There are many grades of Stainless, 303, 304, 310, 316. 316L, 410, 412, 436 etc.

The "3" category contains high percentage of nickel and chrome , it has good corrosion properties but has bad magnetic properties. Good for use with de-mineral water (full of free radicals), very reactive.

"4" category uses high percentage of iron with good magnetic properties. But the corrosion properties is poor due to the iron. It is often use on water with high mineral water and less reactive.. Most oil heater nozzles use them.

Machining properties is bad for the 3-category very tough and sticky, rarely burr free- a great deal of finishing work has to be performed before becoming a saleable item.

The HSV:
It uses neither, a rare material (patented) that possesses the best of both worlds. Good magnetic properties and high resistance to most liquid especially de-mineral water and chlorinated/oxygenated water found in places such as the state of Florida.

We have little choice but use this material for the core. As the demand is relative small (in general industrial applications), the raw material is very expensive. Main users are pharmaceutical and research laboratory establishments.

We are looking for alternative material all the time for the HSV but haven't been successful. If we can overcome this price constraint, everyone can afford an Aquamist PWM-valve system instead of a PWM-pump system.

Don't worry, we are very near in finding this material. We have many materials soaked in different ph-graded-containers.

Worse price enemy- the exchange rate between the $/pound. If this continues, we might pull out of the US market all together. A 900 dollar system will cost 720 dollars. ($2 drop to $1.6 per pound) !!!

If this continues, we might pull out of the US market all together.

NO!

I think many are able to clearly see that you guys are the leaders in alky ionjection technology and will pay for it.

FWIW your race pump w/o HSV, how accurate is it at supplying meth?

does anyone know about this kit personally ?

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=8

my friend just bought it for his NA-T Supra project, and not having control makes me weary, and the dripping!

Should he be thinking about sending it back or adding anything to the kit?

the dripping can be pretty much eliminated with a solenoid. the "limited dynamic range" will still be an issue, though.

Is your friend's supra his dd, or is it a dedicated track car? If it's only a track car, the "progressiveness" of the kit isn't as important.

does anyone know about this kit personally ?

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=8

my friend just bought it for his NA-T Supra project, and not having control makes me weary, and the dripping!

Should he be thinking about sending it back or adding anything to the kit?


Here is a video of our S-HSV against that exact kit. Click the play button at the bottom of the page.

http://www.coolingmist.com/videos.aspx?videoid=13#video

Also, its probably important to point out that valve based kits are progressive as well. Progressive in our industry means that you get more flow with increased engine stress/load or sensor input. So even in the most strict definition of "progessive" you would have to agree that HSV kits are progressive. Perhaps "progressive valve" or "progressive pump" systems should have a distinction.

If you watch the video below you will see our S-HSV kit with our upcoming flow meter attached. you can see the smoothness of injection and the range as well.

http://www.coolingmist.com/videos.aspx?videoid=15#video

This is not to say that a properly designed progressive pump kit is bad, they work great when set up properly. I dont believe that every progressive pump based kit on the market is setup properly.

CM.

does anyone know about this kit personally ?

http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=8

my friend just bought it for his NA-T Supra project, and not having control makes me weary, and the dripping!

Should he be thinking about sending it back or adding anything to the kit?

It is not necessary to send the system back. Snow is offering an inline solenoid valve that will solve the dribbling problem.

Not having total control is not the the end of the world, you can tune your fuel map around it. It may not be ideal but will work.

Over the past few years, people somehow got convinced that a checkvalve is more reliable than a solenoid valve. I personnally disagree on this but no point arguing if we don't offer a PPS (progressive pump speed) system.

Over the past few years, people somehow got convinced that a checkvalve is more reliable than a solenoid valve.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13941564#post13941564

That was a memorable, hot discussion.

I am not sure if the perception has changed since...