So I was reading the BSP Competition thread and decided that us 2.0L need our own for ESP.

How do you think the 2L will hold up in ESP against the Cobras, mustangs, ss cameros, DSMs, etc?

Now that boost isn't regulated in SP, items such as the UTEC are legal and really help out for horsepower, but even modded out to the extent of the rules the WRX is still down compared to the SS Camero (325 stock from the factory). AWD can help but on dry pavement with stickies, I see little benefit.

I'm planning on running in the divisional series and might make a stop at a national tour or two. I've got about 5 years of auto-x experience but only 1 in the wrx and it was all in D-Stock where it was not competitive on the divisional level against the ACR SRT-4.

What do you guys think? What should I be on the lookout for when looking at the other guys in my class?

Fender flares. Wider wheels. Big rubber. No cats. Suspension. Lighten the car up as much as possible, seats, etc...

Then, drop a 2.5L in the '02/'03 WRX (greatest weight savings), then.... UTEC or some tune similar. 100 octane. Water injection.

If I still had my wagon, that's what I'd do. If I had about $20K to buy a used WRX (preferrably with a salvage title... dirt cheap) and then do what needed to be done, it'd be a national contender.

Who knows, some day I just might be back, if I can find some $$ somehow.

--kC

I think the question in everyone's mind is what's going to come of a re-organized SP in the next year or so. Little birdy told me don't spend your money on a WRX ESP build because it will be wasted. Our resident SPAC member might be able to chime in on that.

I too think it could be a national contender in ESP, I'm just not ready to throw the bucks at it and do the irreversable mods like the fender flares.

Pete's been doing fairly well locally. He's our '06 CSCC ESP Champ. He did beat Christine Berry a while back while she drove the Eguina ESP Camaro that her dad Tom co-drove at '06 Nationals. Pete's now on 275 710's. We were looking for an interesting show down with Michael Eguina yesterday, driving the same max'ed out ESP Camaro, but our event got cancelled because of rain(!). Christine is our PAX Ladies '06 CSCC Champ with that Camaro, and Tom is our Open Pax Champ (now driving the BSP Evo).

http://images20.fotki.com/v385/photos/4/43793/4551333/Pete1-vi.jpg

good to see others thinking..:)..

Let me help out here..

Cars that are in ESP:

Street Prepared Class E

AMC
AMX & Javelin (all)

Audi
5000 Turbo & 5000 Turbo
Quattro & 200 & 200
Quattro
A8 & A8 Quattro
V8 Quattro

BMW
2500 & 2800 (all)
3.OS & CS (all)
528 & 530 & 533 (all)
633i & 733i (all)

Chevrolet/Pontiac/Buick/Oldsmobile
Camaro/Firebird (’67-’70)
Camaro/Firebird, all (’70½-’81)
Camaro/Firebird & Firehawk,
NOC (’82-’92) (3rd gen)
Camaro/Firebird & SS &
Firehawk & WS6, NOC (’93-
’02) (4th gen)
Chevelle (’64-’67)
Chevelle (’68-’72)
Corvair Yenko Stage I, II, III (all)
Lumina
Monza V8 & Skyhawk V6
Reatta
Regal V6 & V8 RWD (’80-’88)
Starfire V6 & Sunbird V6 (all)
Trans Am Turbo (’82-’92)
GTO 04-07

Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth
Barracuda (‘65-’69)/Dart/
Valiant/Duster (‘63-’76) [Abody]
Barracuda & Challenger (‘70 -
74) [E-body]
Challenger 6-cyl & V8 (NOC)
Conquest Turbo
Laser all turbo (‘89-’99)
Stealth non-turbo
Dodge
Dakota (‘97-’04)
Dodge / Mitsubishi / Eagle
Colt / Mirage (‘84-’88)
Colt / Mirage / Summit (‘89-
’92)
Colt / Mirage / Summit (‘93-
’96)
Mirage (‘97-’02)

Eagle
Talon all turbo (‘89-’99)

Ferrari
400 America (all)
500 Superfast (all)

Ford/Mercury
Capri Turbo 4
Cougar (’65-’70)
Cougar (’71-’74)
Mustang (’64-1/2-’66)
Mustang & Cougar (‘67-’68)
Mustang & Cougar (’69-’70)
Mustang & Cougar (’71-’73)
Mustang II, all (’74-’78)
Mustang & SVO & Cobra R, V6 & V8 (’79-’93)
Mustang (‘94-’04) all NOC
including Cobra, Cobra R(SN95)
Mustang (‘05+) (S197)
Taurus SHO
Thunderbird & Cougar, all (‘83-’88)
Thunderbird & Cougar, all (’89-’97)

Infiniti
G35
M30
Q45

Jaguar
XJS (all)
Sedans, 6 & 12-cyl.
XK 120 & 140 &150 &160

Lexus
250
400

Mazda
929
MazdaSpeed 6

Mercedes
230SL & 250SL & 280SL (all)
350SL & 380SL & 450SL (all)
173
220 & 230 & 250 & 280
Sedans (all)
280 4.5 Sedans & 300 6.3
Sedans (all)

Mitsubishi
Eclipse all turbo (‘89-’99)
Starion Turbo
3000 GT non-Turbo

Nissan
300ZX non-turbo (’84-’89)
300ZX non-turbo (’90+)

Peugeot
405

Saab
SPG (16V & Turbo)

Saleen
Mustang 302 & 351 nonsupercharged
(’84-’93)

Shelby
GT350 (’65-’66)
GT350, GT500 (’67+)

Subaru
Forester 2.5XT
Legacy 2.5GT(‘05+)
WRX

Toyota
Supra non-turbo (’87-’92)
Supra non-turbo (’93+)
Supra Turbo (pre-’87)
Supra Turbo (’87-92)

Volvo
700 Series (all)
800 Series (all)
S60 & V70

All American inline 6, V6 and V8
sedans and pick-ups not otherwise
classified. Other sedans over 3.0L
not otherwise classified. (See Section
15.1.C for update/backdate
limitations.)

interesting note.....a ESP G35 isnt' the same as BSP Z?????
especially with the track pack...is there significant weight difference between the 2???

ESP in our region has heated up this year...new blood...we have 5 WRX's in ESP trim at our locals....the lone GTO, Mustang, Camaro drivers Swooon over if any of those guys have r compounds....and...let out a sigh of relief when all them are on street tires....:lol:....

but couple of the ESP WRX's are starting to figure out that once they get 'R's they are completly competive..:D

Bill

Cars that COULD Make noise in ESP if Prepped right

Audi Quattro
BMW 528
Chevy Camaro
Ford Mustang/Cobra
Pontiac GTO
Mitsu Eclipe AWD/Turbo
Mazdaspeed 6....
Saab....Swedish iron baby..;)
Subaru...All


That Forester is my hero....my that looks awesome..:)

Bill

I'll let you know how close I can get to Strano at our next event in my mid-prepped 06 WRX with 275 notReallyMadeForAutocrossRcomps

You guys cancel events for rain? You got to be kidding me. Please tell me there was really bad lightning.

That car in the picture doesn't look like a very serious ESP effort. I know how fast KC's STX WRX was, and I know how fast the DSM at nats is when it's not eating turbos. On the new Nats surface, an ESP WRX would eat anything with a live axle.

The power of the camaro is impressive, but the gearing is not. Once you compare the gearing of the WRX to that of the camarostangs you realize that the WRX has a lot going for it.

Of course, with the new "best of breed" philosophy, one has to wait and see what the changes are going to mean to SP. IMO, anyone currently building a new car for SP is nuts.

I'll let you know how close I can get to Strano at our next event in my mid-prepped 06 WRX with 275 notReallyMadeForAutocrossRcomps

Good luck. I saw him demolish everyone's times at the Philly/AI Shootout. Hard to imagine a WRX that could keep up.

Good luck. I saw him demolish everyone's times at the Philly/AI Shootout. Hard to imagine a WRX that could keep up.

Yep I was there (in STU though). Demolish is a good description. Were you there the day he drove Neary's car and smoked everybody too?

Add onto my above list of things to do with "better diffs in the front and the rear". I think a WRX could even do it this year. (And I would *love* to see the traditional ESP people piss and moan about it too). :lol:

And that's probably one of the reasons not to go crazy, because if you do well enough at a national level, you'll get moved out of the class most likely. Pony car people, for the most part, really dislike snails on 4 bangers.

--kC

hmmmmmm...potential....powerful word....;)


2.5 block
Bigger TMIC
Exhaust
Tune
suspension
275+ tires...
front, center, rear Diff
PPG Gear set..;)


KC..sounds awesome...;)
we have a used 02 WRX wagon...in White...

hmmmmmm...potential....powerful word....;)


2.5 block
Bigger TMIC
Exhaust
Tune
suspension
275+ tires...
front, center, rear Diff
PPG Gear set..;)


KC..sounds awesome...;)
we have a used 02 WRX wagon...in White...
See? now yer thinkin'!

I saw this years ago and was hoping to just run the wagon in ESP. In 2004, I started the season out in ESP as a matter of fact...
http://www.ner.org/solo/results/04/solo2004_event1_class.pdf (anyone recognize that talon?)
http://www.ner.org/solo/results/04/solo2004_event2_class.pdf

Then went back to STX when I saw cubic dollars starting to add up and just said the heck with it.

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/668692_41f8d/8W69A54S3D48MCA.JPG

:devil:

--kC

You guys cancel events for rain? You got to be kidding me. Please tell me there was really bad lightning.

That car in the picture doesn't look like a very serious ESP effort. I know how fast KC's STX WRX was, and I know how fast the DSM at nats is when it's not eating turbos. On the new Nats surface, an ESP WRX would eat anything with a live axle.

The power of the camaro is impressive, but the gearing is not. Once you compare the gearing of the WRX to that of the camarostangs you realize that the WRX has a lot going for it.

Of course, with the new "best of breed" philosophy, one has to wait and see what the changes are going to mean to SP. IMO, anyone currently building a new car for SP is nuts.


That would be me in the pictured Forester.
I am curious on what does not look so serious in the picture?

I can go into detail of my 1.5 years worth of tuning and modding if need be. The biggest areas still stock(not serious) in my case are diffs and intake system, i.e. intercooler and TGV's and the like. I have a gutted R160 waiting for a cusco diff., just not certain I want to spend the time or money to do all of the diffs. Do you think it would be stupid to just try out the rear diff upgrade without the center and front?? My biggest issues in putting down power is just that, I spin both inside wheels mid corner when trying to power out of the corners, mainly on tightish med. speed type corners. LFBing has helped, just started that about 2 months ago. Also, the wider rubber seems to help some too. Went from 245's to 275's just in the last month.

Stupid rain this weekend messed up my suspension tuning plans. I am basically using the same formula of spring rates and sways and the like as other Nationally cometitve WRX's from our area. I am just not as high dollar in the damper department as they are. I am rolling on Megan Racing Track dampers in the rear, just added a week ago and Track versions in the front, 8K/10K F/R respectively. Looking to tryout 10/12 soon. This being my DD, those choices are tough, on my azz of course... :):)

Yep I was there (in STU though). Demolish is a good description. Were you there the day he drove Neary's car and smoked everybody too?

No, I missed that.

I am curious on what does not look so serious in the picture?

Stickers. You need a lot of stickers to be serious :)

Stickers. You need a lot of stickers to be serious :) :lol:

--kC

A serious ESP effort =

'02 Sedan
2.5l swap
315's at all four corners
Flares to fit monster wheels and tires
etc.

Oh, and stickers. A forester on stickies with some suspension and bolt on's doesn't equal serious to me. That would be a car that is anywhere from 2-5 seconds slower then the build KC is talking about.

How in the world would the PPG gearset be legal? You can't touch the gears in the box, and the box has to have started out as a legal through ud/bd original. Short of changing the diff, you can't touch anything else. And right there is the big achilles heel to a WRX, though it seems the newer 2.5l cars aren't having as much trouble with the gearbox going kablooie.

Stickers. You need a lot of stickers to be serious :)




I was hoping no one would point out the two cones, one under the front right and the smallish part showing behind and under the chassis :rolleyes:

This was a "private" session, no stickers or numbers needed.....

Not to take anything away from you, it could be a serious effort by your standards.

However, as solo-x stated, a full on assault for national level supremacy starts with an '02/'03 WRX sedan, then go from there. It's the lightest of them all.

And it needs a wing. A big wing. BIIIG ricerific wing.

--kC

^^^ I noticed that....but good on ya anyways...:)..(I don't know...looked Serious enough to me)...

Oh..and I think 315's on Subaru Forester would be crazy.
I just don't think thats the optimum tire size for that car....Tooo wide...and your hitting gates with the tires...have wheel bearing issues, adding unescesssary weight...and slowing down steering response...

275 or 295 is about perfect ....more nimble...and narrower...to navigate the tight stuff...

Bill

Not to take anything away from you, it could be a serious effort by your standards.

However, as solo-x stated, a full on assault for national level supremacy starts with an '02/'03 WRX sedan, then go from there. It's the lightest of them all.

And it needs a wing. A big wing. BIIIG ricerific wing.

--kC


Actually the XT Forester is lighter by about 50lbs..;) Forester XT weighs in at: 3040 lbs curb weight...;)

Bill

Not to take anything away from you, it could be a serious effort by your standards.

However, as solo-x stated, a full on assault for national level supremacy starts with an '02/'03 WRX sedan, then go from there. It's the lightest of them all.

And it needs a wing. A big wing. BIIIG ricerific wing.

--kC


In race trim, I am around 3000lbs(no Driver) now. Give or take 10.
Looking at the OE specs, the delta is 65 lbs compared to the 2003 WRX sedan. That difference is mainly in the fact that I have a FULL size Steel spare weighing in at a hefty 50 Lbs.
Not sure how much the dinky one weighs in the sedan to compare further.

I do follow your thoughts on the serious comment though.
Just trying to dispell the weight difference assumptions.
Most people think that a Forester has to be 200+ lbs heavier than a sedan.

My gearing will be fun at the upcoming El Toro Pro Solo.
The 2004 Forester has the shortest first gear of all Subarus on the road possibly.
On 615's at the 2006 Atwater pro I pulled a 1.76 60 foot:)

Oh yeah...that too....Gearing...4.44 vs 3.90

Actually the XT Forester is lighter by about 50lbs..;) Forester XT weighs in at: 3040 lbs curb weight...;)

BillThan the '04 and up, you'd be right. The curb weight of the '02/'03 WRX sedan is 3085 (Wagon was 3165). The curb weight of the 1st Forester XT in '04 is 3210. That's a 125lb advantage to the WRX sedan right there.

In race trim, I am around 3000lbs(no Driver) now.My wagon was down to around 2875 IIRC, still with stock seats and a whole bunch of other things in STX trim. You;d be hard pressed to get a Forester down to that weight in STU trim, never mind ESP. It's the glass in the rear and extra sheet metal up top that's a killer. Where it helps for rotation, it's still dead weight.

--kC

The power of the camaro is impressive, but the gearing is not. Once you compare the gearing of the WRX to that of the camarostangs you realize that the WRX has a lot going for it.
:huh:

The gearing is excellent in an LT1 Camaro, and on most courses, an LS1 Camaro too. Having driven plenty of Camaros and plenty of Subarus, I'm trying to figure out what your perspective with this comment is.

Karen

Since I can't afford to dump the 06 engine in my 02 daily driver, this is what I have in mind for a divisionally competitive 02 sedan:

TXS TMIC
TXS Intake
TXS Catless TBE
TXS UpPipe
TXS RPV
TXS UTEC (custom tune by TXS) - ::keeps fingers crossed::
100 Octane
AGX's
ProKit's (spring/shocks will be replaced w/ CUSCO Z2 coils before Sept)
CUSCO sways
CUSCO rear strut brace
17" Rota attacks (17x7.5?, 14.9lbs ea)
225/45/17 Kumho v710s (yes, these are coming to the US on April 2nd due to "Kumho sponsoring the MX5 cup and that's their spec tire" - Vilven Tire)

I want to go wider on the wheels/tires obviously but since I might sell this thing in a couple of years I don't want to do the fender flares. The wheels/tires are legally able to stick out from the bodywork so I can't see how this would be necessary. I'm not opposed but that's just one more thing I would have to do myself. I'm on a strict budget and do 90% of the work myself with the help of a good friend so that is limiting what I can do as well.

Whattayathink?

:huh:

The gearing is excellent in an LT1 Camaro, and on most courses, an LS1 Camaro too. Having driven plenty of Camaros and plenty of Subarus, I'm trying to figure out what your perspective with this comment is.

Karen

I was thinking along the lines of that thread on sccaforums that compiled a list of torque output at the wheels for various ESP cars. The original discussion in that thread was about EVO/STi, but I (maybe erroneously?) remember the effect being similar, though not as large, for the lesser WRX's. My only point is that, even though the Camaro has 325hp stock, that doesn't really tell the whole story. One has to look at torque and torque multiplication, power gain potential, weight, etc. to get a real picture.

Speaking of which, what kind of power should the 2.5l be able to make with unlimited boost, 112+ octane and water injection? Full bore engine, .047 overbore, SP mods to the head, catless, etc. How durable IS the trans that comes on the 2.5l cars? What about for the LS1 camaro?

If you guys notice, there was a DSM in 3rd this year at nats. And we all know even a 2.0 liter GD is going to be a better platform.

I really think a well prepped 2.0 liter WRX could take the win. Throw the 285/30/18's on it. ZZYZX suspension, the basic power mods and some weight reduction and you'd be right there. I don't even think you'd have to go crazy on the build.

And who needs fender flares, just bust out the sawzall.

As far as the competition. The ESP class is pretty well concrete. I think the pony guys will police themselves just fine. As far as who to look out for.

Well, check out the results!

I was thinking along the lines of that thread on sccaforums that compiled a list of torque output at the wheels for various ESP cars.
Okay, torque output isn't necessarily the same thing as gearing. In my experience, the gearing in a Subaru requires a lot more shifting -- usually 2-3, then 3-2 at least once -- than in a Camaro. Camaros generally require a shift into second, and that's it, except in extremely tight corners. And the NA nature of the Camaro along with the fairly flat torque "curve" starting just below 2000rpm for an LT1 and right around 2K for the LS1 means that you have more leeway when you do that initial 1-2 shift (which is extremely short in a Subaru). Shifting costs time. If you don't have to shift as much, it can only help.

How durable IS the trans that comes on the 2.5l cars? What about for the LS1 camaro?
Well, I'm not sure about the Subaru trans in the 2.5L cars (though that is something I would like to know more about), but I can say the transmission in the LT1/LS1 cars (the T56) is pretty hardy.... What else would you call 378K on a daily driven/autocrossed hard/dragraced/opentracked stock unit?

Karen

Digi ... you've got to at least put 245/40/17 R's on (Hoosier A6's) ... they'll fit without fender flares ... if you have stiff springs. Here on a narrow wagon.

http://images9.fotki.com/v165/photos/4/43793/1961534/MakoFat-vi.jpg

If you guys notice, there was a DSM in 3rd this year at nats. And we all know even a 2.0 liter GD is going to be a better platform.

I really think a well prepped 2.0 liter WRX could take the win. Throw the 285/30/18's on it. ZZYZX suspension, the basic power mods and some weight reduction and you'd be right there. I don't even think you'd have to go crazy on the build.

And who needs fender flares, just bust out the sawzall.

As far as the competition. The ESP class is pretty well concrete. I think the pony guys will police themselves just fine. As far as who to look out for.

Well, check out the results!

That DSM only ran good one day. They lost the turbo on first runs second day and both drivers jumped into pony cars. So, one day of runs in a familiar car, one day of runs in a completely different animal they had never driven before. That gives you just a little better idea of how quick that DSM is. And I agree, a WRX is going to be quicker. Possibly a lot quicker.

Karen, what is top speed in 2nd gear for the LT1/LS1 cars? Anyone have the 1st and 2nd gear ratios and final drive ratios for the LT1/LS1 cars and the WRX's?

Agreed, the T56 is a stought gearbox.

Digi ... you've got to at least put 245/40/17 R's on (Hoosier A6's) ... they'll fit without fender flares ... if you have stiff springs. Here on a narrow wagon.

Read his build. He doesn't have stiff springs or shocks. I'd suggest getting a more serious suspension first/next. As KC found out with his car in STX trim, a good suspension is worth quite a bit of time.

Read his build. He doesn't have stiff springs or shocks. I'd suggest getting a more serious suspension first/next. As KC found out with his car in STX trim, a good suspension is worth quite a bit of time. I can only imagine what the car would have been like with Konis or some such suspension (Zyzzx) specifically valved for the surface in Toepicker. *shudder*

I'm getting the willies just thinking about setting up one for ESP.

I would have to say that a WRX (and those saying only with a 2.0L could be correct) could take ESP in both ProSolos (as long as you have the '06 gearbox) and nationals.

Dammit, someone gimme some money. :lol: Like I said earlier, $20K would suffice and I'll guarantee coverage and a podium finish at nationals. Maybe I might wok on this for my '08 plan. I know I've talked to solo-x at length about it, and it's quite doable.

--kC

I would have to say that a WRX (and those saying only with a 2.0L could be correct) could take ESP in both ProSolos (as long as you have the '06 gearbox) and nationals.
kC,

You saw my post about corner weighing my '06 WRX TR in the DS thread? Came in at 3,056lbs with a 1/3 tank of gas on my heavy stock wheels & RE070 tires. With my racing wheels and victoracers my car will be in the 3,020lb range and I could see a fully prepped DS '06+ WRX TR dipping below the 3,000lb mark.

In SP* trim, a TR should get down to the low 2,800lb range - maybe even crack into the high 2,700lb range.

If you guys notice, there was a DSM in 3rd this year at nats. And we all know even a 2.0 liter GD is going to be a better platform.

I really think a well prepped 2.0 liter WRX could take the win. Throw the 285/30/18's on it. ZZYZX suspension, the basic power mods and some weight reduction and you'd be right there. I don't even think you'd have to go crazy on the build.

And who needs fender flares, just bust out the sawzall.

As far as the competition. The ESP class is pretty well concrete. I think the pony guys will police themselves just fine. As far as who to look out for.

Well, check out the results!

I know just such a bugeye with Zzyzx bits who I'm trying hard to convince removing a few upgrades that have him in SM to go to ESP. Plus we know a great tuner who can maximize the TD04. He's got all the other bits... except for wider wheels tires.

I'll keep pushin' on him for doing this before '08... but he's happy with his non-nationally-competitive SM car. :p

kC,

You saw my post about corner weighing my '06 WRX TR in the DS thread? Came in at 3,056lbs with a 1/3 tank of gas on my heavy stock wheels & RE070 tires. With my racing wheels and victoracers my car will be in the 3,020lb range and I could see a fully prepped DS '06+ WRX TR dipping below the 3,000lb mark.

In SP* trim, a TR should get down to the low 2,800lb range - maybe even crack into the high 2,700lb range.I think that high 2700s are doable.

But since I would have to start from scratch, the '02/'03 would be the cheapest to start with. ;)

Again, dropping a 2.5L powertrain into an '02/'03 would be the ultimate way to do it, lighter chassis to start with. Yes, the 2.5L and tranny weighs more than the outgoing unit it would replace, but the weight savings would still be there.

Like, if anyone were to build the ultimate WRX for ESP.

--kC
(2nd request... send me money)

I think that high 2700s are doable.

But since I would have to start from scratch, the '02/'03 would be the cheapest to start with. ;)

Again, dropping a 2.5L powertrain into an '02/'03 would be the ultimate way to do it, lighter chassis to start with. Yes, the 2.5L and tranny weighs more than the outgoing unit it would replace, but the weight savings would still be there.

Like, if anyone were to build the ultimate WRX for ESP.

--kC
(2nd request... send me money)
Gotcha. However, I'm not sure if the TR is much heavier than a 2.0L. It seems like the WRX models have added ammenities over the years, but these were all thrown out in the TR package. IMHO, the TR is probably within 40lbs of an '02-'03 WRX (remember Edmunds weighed a TR at 3,122lbs and that one came with an upgraded audio system [bigger amp, more speakers] which my TR doesn't have).

Okay, torque output isn't necessarily the same thing as gearing. In my experience, the gearing in a Subaru requires a lot more shifting -- usually 2-3, then 3-2 at least once -- than in a Camaro. Camaros generally require a shift into second, and that's it, except in extremely tight corners. And the NA nature of the Camaro along with the fairly flat torque "curve" starting just below 2000rpm for an LT1 and right around 2K for the LS1 means that you have more leeway when you do that initial 1-2 shift (which is extremely short in a Subaru). Shifting costs time. If you don't have to shift as much, it can only help.


Well, I'm not sure about the Subaru trans in the 2.5L cars (though that is something I would like to know more about), but I can say the transmission in the LT1/LS1 cars (the T56) is pretty hardy.... What else would you call 378K on a daily driven/autocrossed hard/dragraced/opentracked stock unit?

Karen

STis often need to go into 3rd gear. But they aren't in ESP ;) WRX gearing is far different, and you'll only need to get into third if you plan on breaking 65 mph for a while. If not, just tap the limiter for a second and you're fine. I've never hit the limiter in second in my car even in ESP trim. It still doesn't have the low end TQ or instant throttle response of a camaro, but I still believe it has massive potential.

The 2.5L cars are MUCH better about trannys. I've heard 3rd gear is now the one to break, which obviously shouldn't be a problem on an auto-x course. I easily have 200 launches on my car, many with R-comps, and the tranny is just fine :) Granted it's not the 509509 that you have on your green car though!

If $20k is going to anyone, it's to someone who already has a 2.5L. ME. So, I'm putting in my bid. I feel I only need $15k to go trophy in ESP. I'll even give you your money back if I don't!!! haha.
:disco:

How in the world would the PPG gearset be legal? You can't touch the gears in the box, and the box has to have started out as a legal through ud/bd original. Short of changing the diff, you can't touch anything else. And right there is the big achilles heel to a WRX, though it seems the newer 2.5l cars aren't having as much trouble with the gearbox going kablooie.

He was kidding about the gearset. The torque of an ESP 2.5L WRX, combined with the grip of 285s R-comps, would crush the 02-03 WRX tranny in no time. IMO you COULD run the 2.0L tranny, but you'll be replacing it constantly. I'd use the reinforced tranny from the 2.5L along with the engine.

Our resident SPAC member might be able to chime in on that.



Honestly it's just a bunch of ideas right now. Nobody knows any more than anyone else...

How in the world would the PPG gearset be legal? You can't touch the gears in the box, and the box has to have started out as a legal through ud/bd original. Short of changing the diff, you can't touch anything else. And right there is the big achilles heel to a WRX, though it seems the newer 2.5l cars aren't having as much trouble with the gearbox going kablooie.

He was kidding about the gearset. The torque of an ESP 2.5L WRX, combined with the grip of 285s R-comps, would crush the 02-03 WRX tranny in no time. IMO you COULD run the 2.0L tranny, but you'll be replacing it constantly. I'd use the reinforced tranny from the 2.5L along with the engine.

wow...you thought I was serious...;)..:lol: Sorry...But Joel is Right...
I will throw some other tidbits for a 06/07 out...
we are getting some problems with 3rdgear breaking now here at the dealership...we have had about 4 in the last couple of monthes....and...it seems the stock clutch is weaker also than that of a 2.0 car...we have replaced 4 clutches under 10000 miles so far...


You look at the cars in ESP....most of them are frekkin Dinosours..so ANY new blood of technology in the class is already going to be a HUGE advantage...
Oh yeah..I forgot one important car thats missing...a Cadillac CTSV...seems one actually entered the San Diego tour last year....and it was basically stock with some hoosiers...Since it has the various computers...traction dontrol...and all that...its probably the most advance car in the class...followed by the Subaru's, the GTO, the new Mustangs..and the Mazda 6...


Bill

Well, after the SM thread.... :disco:

Well, after the SM thread.... :disco:

touche':lol:

and...it seems the stock clutch is weaker also than that of a 2.0 car...we have replaced 4 clutches under 10000 miles so far...Clutch is a non-issue in ESP.

Oh yeah..I forgot one important car thats missing...a Cadillac CTSV...seems one actually entered the San Diego tour last year

In F-Stock, not ESP, along with Kevin Youngers in a 5 Series BMW (Dunno if it was an M) 2 CTS-Vs both co-driven and a Merc C55 AMG.

--kC

We have a guy locally piloting what we affectionately call the Black Wagon of Doom and he won the class this year. We need to do some tuning as he just got a UTEC and he needs some new stickies next year. He's running 255's on his wagon. So I say go for it!

http://www.autoxphotos.com/gallery/Steel%20Cities%20SCCA/2006/2006-08-13/IMG_5158.jpg

X ... didn't sound like he had any suspension yet ... "ProKit" to be followed with expensive to rebuild Cusco's ... so the advice was to get stiff springs together with much wider the 225 tires. Pretty much need both it you are going to do one.

He was kidding about the gearset. The torque of an ESP 2.5L WRX, combined with the grip of 285s R-comps, would crush the 02-03 WRX tranny in no time. IMO you COULD run the 2.0L tranny, but you'll be replacing it constantly. I'd use the reinforced tranny from the 2.5L along with the engine.

:huh: Reinforced tranny? The 2006+MY trannies are more prone to breaking. The mechanical nature of having a 3.7 final drive means the tranny gears receive more torque.

I think KC pointed out the 2006+MY tranny because the 3.7 F.D. allows for someone to stay in 2nd gear all the time.

I was under the impression that the 5 speed tranny was "reinforced" when the 2.5L came along. Is that not the case?

yeah, CUSCO coils are to come but it's all about the budget. I can't drop $3k on coils and tires right now (or before July). I'm going to the Evolution Driving School (hopefully) first and will be more helpful (IMHO) in the long run than wider tires or stiffer springs at first. Once I'm out of the school then I can focus on bigger/better stuff.

The 245 v710 fits (according to tire rack) on the 7.5" wheel. That's the minimum width and I'm a little weary of putting a big tire and mix hard turning and -3.5 degrees of camber (once coils are on) on the minimum width. I've heard that is not ideal. However, if it's feasible and SAFE then I can do that. I can't get new wheels this year unless I go the used route. Then, I'd prefer something like a 17x9 or maybe 18 if there was an advantage of going taller.

Shouldn't the sway bars and bushings/endlinks do the trick on the body roll thing? Isn't that why they're called "anti-sway" bars? :confused:

I was under the impression that the 5 speed tranny was "reinforced" when the 2.5L came along. Is that not the case?

The only changes were a 3.7 final drive and a double-cone syncrho on first gear. The reinforcing of the 5MT for the 2.5L came from a myth because someone reasoned that since the torque increased, SoA must have done something to the 5MT. Then another person took that logic to hold it as truth. I can actually almost mentally recall the thread where it started from.

So then why are people breaking 3rd gear in '06s and NOT 1st and 2cnd? Even those running 20gs and the like.

:huh: Reinforced tranny? The 2006+MY trannies are more prone to breaking. The mechanical nature of having a 3.7 final drive means the tranny gears receive more torque.

I think KC pointed out the 2006+MY tranny because the 3.7 F.D. allows for someone to stay in 2nd gear all the time.

I was under the impression that the 5 speed tranny was "reinforced" when the 2.5L came along. Is that not the case?

The only changes were a 3.7 final drive and a double-cone syncrho on first gear. The reinforcing of the 5MT for the 2.5L came from a myth because someone reasoned that since the torque increased, SoA must have done something to the 5MT. Then another person took that logic to hold it as truth. I can actually almost mentally recall the thread where it started from.

So then why are people breaking 3rd gear in '06s and NOT 1st and 2cnd? Even those running 20gs and the like.

nope....STOCK TURBO'd no mods....cars is what we are having issues with...
(Basically, Kids that think the standard, drive it like a Honduh and all is good mentality)..
then theres the problem with the 06 aluminum Control arms...Breaking when you put Bigger Bars on (DS thread)...

Oh and KC...I realize that on the clutches;)

hmmmm...wonder if the "Bigger hoodscoop" is legal????

Well yes, people that don't know how to drive will break cars. But that's not my point. Throw a 20G on an 02 and what happens? Well, a lot of lag and 1st or 2cnd gear goes kablooey. What happens on an '06? 3rd. There has to be some change there.

The only bar to have a problem breaking control arms is the addco/strano bar. Sam is working to alleviate this problem, but it would also be solved once you leave DS. The main problem that causes the breakage is the bar compensating for a lack of spring. Up the spring rate, and you don't break the tabs off. You ALSO probably don't want to run quite that large of a bar with ESP rates, but that's subject to debate.

Chiming in a little late here but i wanted to add my 2 cents.
I drive an ESP prepped wagon that seems to be competitive enough in my region, I just need to 'drive' it better. So far i am usually in top 3 withing 1 sec the most of the winner who is driving a Steeda Mustang. The car is not fully prepped for ESP and can still have alot to do, and my stock clutch is slipping kinna bad so thats an excuse to go in with a new clutch and flywheel which is legal.

Only thing that sucks for me in the wagon is that i have less track than the WRX sedan and i am about 75-90lbs heavier, plus the weight is all up top increasing my center of gravity. Still those factors are miniscule and i think WRX wagon or sedan can be really competitive in ESP.

One thing i would like is to put the whiteline 27mm front sway bar on the car , i remember seeing a thread where they confirmed it fits on the wagons using sperical endlinks, so money willing after i replace my clutch(which im not sure when that will be) that and a bigger rear sway bar as well should be in the future.

Well yes, people that don't know how to drive will break cars. But that's not my point. Throw a 20G on an 02 and what happens? Well, a lot of lag and 1st or 2cnd gear goes kablooey. What happens on an '06? 3rd. There has to be some change there.

The only bar to have a problem breaking control arms is the addco/strano bar. Sam is working to alleviate this problem, but it would also be solved once you leave DS. The main problem that causes the breakage is the bar compensating for a lack of spring. Up the spring rate, and you don't break the tabs off. You ALSO probably don't want to run quite that large of a bar with ESP rates, but that's subject to debate.
He speaks the truth folks. There's quite a few threads where people are making 300-350whp on 20g turbos and 1st and 2nd gear are standing up to repeated launches on the '06 trannies - however, if/when the trannies break, 3rd is the one that shatters to pieces. I'm not sure what Subaru did, but they did something to reinforce the first 2 gears.

Btw, I'm not sure if the '06 clutch is truly weaker - as it makes more torque, a bad driver is apt to wear it out more quickly than the one on the 2.0L. Besides, tuners such as Christian @ Cobb and David @ Buschur Racing have been able to run tuned vf39'd '06 WRXs on the stock clutch with no slippage.

hmmmm...wonder if the "Bigger hoodscoop" is legal????

No, a bigger scoop is not ESP legal (putts you in SM) yet a larger IC is. :rolleyes:

No, a bigger scoop is not ESP legal (putts you in SM) yet a larger IC is. :rolleyes:

I think he means the scoop from the 06+ models which you could get via UD/BD.

That reminds me...did the WRX scoop get bigger or did the STi scoop get smaller or both (since the WRX and STi appear have the same size scoop on the 06 models).

That reminds me...did the WRX scoop get bigger or did the STi scoop get smaller or both (since the WRX and STi appear have the same size scoop on the 06 models).
Correct - both happened. WRX and STI have the identical hood scoop for the '06-'07MY. Aerodynamics were redesigned with the new front-end to make the scoop more efficient.

Correct - both happened. WRX and STI have the identical hood scoop for the '06-'07MY. Aerodynamics were redesigned with the new front-end to make the scoop more efficient.

And I'm under the impression that the scoop will not retrofit to '05 and earlier, is that right?

--kC

And I'm under the impression that the scoop will not retrofit to '05 and earlier, is that right?

--kC
Correct Keith. Someone did the measurements in a thread and the opening the scoop covers is a completely different shape - the entire front end, headlight assembly and hood would need to be changed inorder to run an '06+ hood scoop.

Chike

The 245 v710 fits (according to tire rack) on the 7.5" wheel. That's the minimum width and I'm a little weary of putting a big tire and mix hard turning and -3.5 degrees of camber (once coils are on) on the minimum width. I've heard that is not ideal. However, if it's feasible and SAFE then I can do that. I can't get new wheels this year unless I go the used route. Then, I'd prefer something like a 17x9 or maybe 18 if there was an advantage of going taller.


Someone ran them last month on stock 06 WRX wheels and they looked fine actually.

Oh I almost forgot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/waktasz/IMG00081.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/waktasz/IMG00085.jpg

Granted, they aren't the absolute best autocross tires, but they were cheeeeap and will be my daily tires once it warms up outside.

and what are those fitted on?

They will be on Team Dynamics 17x9 et45 if they ever arrive :(. I've had them on order since November but they finally shipped from England, I'll have pics in a few weeks.

Karen, what is top speed in 2nd gear for the LT1/LS1 cars? Anyone have the 1st and 2nd gear ratios and final drive ratios for the LT1/LS1 cars and the WRX's?

Agreed, the T56 is a stought gearbox.
Top speed for the LT1 is 68mph, and I think the LS1 is just a touch faster (only because it has a touch higher redline). I have the ratios somewhere, and for the '94+ cars, "2.88" is what comes to mind for first gear. It's different in the '93 transmission, which is why one of the UD/BD changes is to a '93 trans.

And Justin, you're right about me not remembering the gearbox differences between an STi and a regular WRX. Yours is the first WRX I've driven in literally years, and that was only 2 (frustrating) runs ;) . The whole glass transmission issue is a real problem (at least in the earlier cars), and I don't necessarily think it's fair to blame all of it on the drivers. There are a couple of earlier WRXs with broken trannies that were the reason I stopped driving that model because I knew those drivers didn't dog the cars like certain other drivers did.

Karen

There are a couple of earlier WRXs with broken trannies that were the reason I stopped driving that model because I knew those drivers didn't dog the cars like certain other drivers did.

Karen

You can go ahead and mention Tom by name if you want to Karen, you don't have to call him "certain other drivers". :lol: It's simple really. If you do Pro Solo with a WRX 5-speed you will eventually get to experience the joy and cost of replacing a tranny. And that's running in STX with less power and street rubber, I'd budget at least one tranny a year if doing ESP.

I shouldn't pick on Tom, in his defense he did keep trying to get rebuilds instead of just buying a new transmission which had a lot to do with why he kept blowing them I think.

Wasn't there an issue with his gearbox case that kept causing some of those breaks and rebuilds.

I'd budget at least one tranny a year if doing ESP.


I think that may be on the low end. At least STi drivers only need to carry around spare rear axles to events...

Wasn't there an issue with his gearbox case that kept causing some of those breaks and rebuilds.
I remember hearing about that... Who knows though - I think Tom had several issues with the car's reliability which eventually led him to sell it.

Oh, I know the earlier ones were a real problem. Time will truely tell if the '06s are stronger or not, I suppose.

I think that may be on the low end. At least STi drivers only need to carry around spare rear axles to events...

I can't wait till you start blowing tranny's and the rest of us only break axles...just kidding..I too can't complain that my only thing so far is 1 axle replaced because of racing..

Digi ... Sway bars help control lean in cornering but not under braking. One problem with WRX's is that they lift their inside rear wheel in corner entry. Stiffer springs help in that regard ... but ... this a big issue. Lots of old threads covering these things. You also need proper droop with your struts, etc. But, for instance Tein Flex's have won a number of National Championships and they are typically over damping and do not have much travel. Excellent driving over came those "problems." But the bar has been raised and better suspension components are being used.

Typically people start off with big bars and softer springs ... then go to stiffer springs and softer bars. 27 Whiteline is the way to go at first. Save yourself time and money and go with Poltec adjustable end links ... rather then trying three other types of endlinks first.

The winner of the STU National Championship used 245 tires on his thin'ish oem 7.5" wheels, while others where using up to 10" wheels ... so extra wide isn't absolutely necessary. 18" wheels are not the way to go. They are typically heavier, create more centrifugal forces (making for worse braking and turn in) and limit tire choice. Note that F1's don't use low profile tires.

Good for you to go to EVO School ... best Mod.

Good for you to go to EVO School ... best Mod.
I'm doing the Evo School mod in April '07! :banana: :banana: :banana:

Redi ... a Wagon has won the STX National Championship.

My wagon was a good bit under 3,000 ... but that was in a mild SM trim. But try to save everywhere, hollow sway bars, lite weight battery, racing seats, WHEELS, etc.

You can fit wider Sedan A arms to your wagon ... and use adjustable lateral links in back to increase your track ... along with Spacers. If you don't change out your axle stubs to the slightly longer Sedan ones ... be careful going over big bumps, etc. There have been a few cases of people dropping out their short axle. I never had any problem. Spacers might decrease your bearing life, but AX'ing is going to do that anyway. R tires will definitely shorten your bearings life. Make sure your axle nuts are kept tight, even if the brass safety indent ring doesn't show movement. I developed cracked axle receivers, which can happen sooner if those axle nuts aren't kept properly torqued.

Oh, I know the earlier ones were a real problem. Time will truely tell if the '06s are stronger or not, I suppose.
Agreed...time will tell. However, posts like these do indicate that in some cases, they have been able to withstand a good deal of abuse/power:
Running 348/348 with a 20G on a TR. No issues yet and I drive it like I stole it. :)
This post was taken from the 20g with 06 tranny (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1152956) in the Transmission forum.

Shots from our last Evo School: http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/2007-solo-solo-2-au/evo-school-el-toro/

We had the first Evo Extreme school where the cars were fitted with GPS and Inertial something tracking units, plus Chase Cam solid state cameras. After your session, a racing data acquisition engineer would compare your runs with the instructors runs in your cars. You could overlay the runs ... and would have irrefutable evidence that typically Tight Is Right, etc. You could see that you might be faster in a corner then the instructor, but your longer line put you behind at corner exit. AX doesn't have long straight aways where highest exit speed is of paramount importance, like in road racing. It was very cool to see how linked corners need to be taken. You might be very fast in a particular element, but that would completely screw you in the next two elements, putting you behind time wise.

I'm pretty excited about the evo school. I'll be on my victo's but it should still be fun and educational. And...the best mod. :)

I've heard about the glass tranny thing, a friend of mine warned me of that issue way before I got mine. His was an 02 as well and he went through at least one; but he also went through two engines :rolleyes: so I took it rather lightly. Most courses are designed so you shouldn't have to hit first more than once so shifting back and forth won't be that bad, but the transition from brakes to power and at 100% throttle eventually takes its toll. If I haven't mentioned it already, this is a daily driver and will be driven 4hrs on average to divisional events.

I don't want to let too much out of the bag but I will not be going with any other new suspension components other than one particular brand, with the exception of the end-links; sounds like I'll go with the Poltec adjustable end links since this company doesn't make them (that I know of). I'm all about being adjustable!

I figured the 18" wheels weren't going to be better. I ran my crx with 13x8 many years ago. Since I can't change the size of the brake rotors, would a real low profile 16" tire with light wheels be better than the 17? If the physics are to a smaller wheel then in theory it would be better. Just a thought...


I would also like to know what makes the camaro so dominating and apparently the car of choice for most individuals in ESP? It's got to be more than gearing. I've never driven one but I've driven a (stock) cobra and it didn't feel very big; the camaro looks so big with that front end seems like it would be a handful to get around the course. Do they make computer systems similar to the UTEC for camaros and stangs or do they all just reflash? Ignition (or whatever brand), exhaust, and a reflash is about all you can do for power right?

Shots from our last Evo School: http://public.fotki.com/makofoto/2007-solo-solo-2-au/evo-school-el-toro/


:eek:

What happend to the ferarri? That doesn't look like healthy smoke!

I need you to take pictures of my events, those are all some very nice shots!

The steering fluid top gasket didn't seat properly ... fluid was getting onto the exhaust headers.

16" wheels ... again, less choice of "best" tires and sizes.

My 2nd gear stripped from being very on and off the gas while racing with R tires. That finally got me to smooth out my inputs!

. 18" wheels are not the way to go. They are typically heavier, create more centrifugal forces (making for worse braking and turn in) and limit tire choice. Note that F1's don't use low profile tires.


That is impossible to say, it depends completely on car, class and the best that is available. F1s dont use bigger wheels because its against the rules.

Digi ... Sway bars help control lean in cornering but not under braking. One problem with WRX's is that they lift their inside rear wheel in corner entry. Stiffer springs help in that regard ... but ... this a big issue. Lots of old threads covering these things. You also need proper droop with your struts, etc. But, for instance Tein Flex's have won a number of National Championships and they are typically over damping and do not have much travel. Excellent driving over came those "problems." But the bar has been raised and better suspension components are being used.

Typically people start off with big bars and softer springs ... then go to stiffer springs and softer bars. 27 Whiteline is the way to go at first. Save yourself time and money and go with Poltec adjustable end links ... rather then trying three other types of endlinks first.

The winner of the STU National Championship used 245 tires on his thin'ish oem 7.5" wheels, while others where using up to 10" wheels ... so extra wide isn't absolutely necessary. 18" wheels are not the way to go. They are typically heavier, create more centrifugal forces (making for worse braking and turn in) and limit tire choice. Note that F1's don't use low profile tires.

Good for you to go to EVO School ... best Mod.

Agreed on the EVO school...I am using Cusco 21 front, and the adjust cusco 20-24 rear...in the 22 position...running 12k springs int he front.. and 8k in the rear...Every once in while...I lift the inside tire....but not tooo often now...and I am on 17's....

The steering fluid top gasket didn't seat properly ... fluid was getting onto the exhaust headers.

16" wheels ... again, less choice of "best" tires and sizes.

My 2nd gear stripped from being very on and off the gas while racing with R tires. That finally got me to smooth out my inputs!

thats a HUGE statement right there...me...I try to get to 3rd gear(STi) as soon as I can so the car isn't so peaky...lower RPM makes me more smooth by default....and I am in the torque band alot more..;)

Bill

Redi ... a Wagon has won the STX National Championship.

My wagon was a good bit under 3,000 ... but that was in a mild SM trim. But try to save everywhere, hollow sway bars, lite weight battery, racing seats, WHEELS, etc.

You can fit wider Sedan A arms to your wagon ... and use adjustable lateral links in back to increase your track ... along with Spacers. If you don't change out your axle stubs to the slightly longer Sedan ones ... be careful going over big bumps, etc. There have been a few cases of people dropping out their short axle. I never had any problem. Spacers might decrease your bearing life, but AX'ing is going to do that anyway. R tires will definitely shorten your bearings life. Make sure your axle nuts are kept tight, even if the brass safety indent ring doesn't show movement. I developed cracked axle receivers, which can happen sooner if those axle nuts aren't kept properly torqued.

yeah i am expecting to change our my bearings sometime in the middle of this year when i do the subaru 4-pot/2-pot. I never heard of the problem that you are talking about but it is definielty good to know and i will have to keep a check on it!! Thanks.

ps Im assuming when you say axle stubs you mean housing for cv joints side, ie splined part
also i was told before, never investigated, that if i wanted to run sedan A arms i would have to basically swap over the entire fron suspension from the sedan. your saying i can just swap arm without a problem ?

I would also like to know what makes the camaro so dominating and apparently the car of choice for most individuals in ESP? It's got to be more than gearing. I've never driven one but I've driven a (stock) cobra and it didn't feel very big; the camaro looks so big with that front end seems like it would be a handful to get around the course. Do they make computer systems similar to the UTEC for camaros and stangs or do they all just reflash? Ignition (or whatever brand), exhaust, and a reflash is about all you can do for power right?

Well, some of it is obviously the pervasive lemming mentality of National level autocrossers -- if it's winning, it must be the car to have, right? Yes, they are big, but they aren't the pigs too many people think they are, unless you overdrive it. Driving a Camaro well will teach you a lot about driving overall, because it will bite you so badly if you aren't patient. Joel Fehrman can tell you a little bit about that, after he took my FS car out for a couple of runs at a practice day. :lol: Driven impeccably, a third gen Camaro (82-92)is damned hard to beat, and a fourth gen (93+) isn't too far behind. Yes, they are completely different beasts.

The usual computer "mods" for a Camaro are done using the LT1 or LS1 edit programs (or similar, like Hypertech). There's a lot to be done with headers and intake. Keep in mind though that these cars are pretty powerful in stock form, and their biggest problems with that power in stock trim is that they can't use it due to traction problems. The stock limited slip is very limited, and one of the first mods any serious ESP competitor will do is to upgrade to a Torsen T2R. The next thing is to put meatier tires on it so they can run 315s. The power mods aren't as crucial until you can actually use it.

Karen

what suspensiona/tire/wheel combo is on this?

http://images20.fotki.com/v385/photos/4/43793/4551333/Pete1-vi.jpg[/QUOTE]


Thanks

- Megan racing Track Coilovers(WRX)9.5K Fr/12K Rear
(My next setup will be this spring rate combo, currently 8K Fr. 10K Rr)
- Kumho 710's 275-40-17
- Enkei RPF1's 17 x 8.
The tires are a bit bulgy sidewall wise but just fine.

what suspensiona/tire/wheel combo is on this?

http://images20.fotki.com/v385/photos/4/43793/4551333/Pete1-vi.jpg


Thanks[/QUOTE]

Those foglights aren't legal....

--kC
:lol: :lol:

Well, some of it is obviously the pervasive lemming mentality of National level autocrossers -- if it's winning, it must be the car to have, right? Yes, they are big, but they aren't the pigs too many people think they are, unless you overdrive it. Driving a Camaro well will teach you a lot about driving overall, because it will bite you so badly if you aren't patient. Joel Fehrman can tell you a little bit about that, after he took my FS car out for a couple of runs at a practice day. :lol: Driven impeccably, a third gen Camaro (82-92)is damned hard to beat, and a fourth gen (93+) isn't too far behind. Yes, they are completely different beasts.

The usual computer "mods" for a Camaro are done using the LT1 or LS1 edit programs (or similar, like Hypertech). There's a lot to be done with headers and intake. Keep in mind though that these cars are pretty powerful in stock form, and their biggest problems with that power in stock trim is that they can't use it due to traction problems. The stock limited slip is very limited, and one of the first mods any serious ESP competitor will do is to upgrade to a Torsen T2R. The next thing is to put meatier tires on it so they can run 315s. The power mods aren't as crucial until you can actually use it.

Karen

Thanks Karen, this was exactly what I was wanting to know! I'll start asking about LSDs at the events to see what to expect from their runs. The SS that runs in my region doesn't have anything serious other than some upgraded suspension, intake, and some headers. I was about 1.5 seconds behind with no power mods (except TBE) and victos.

What about the mustang/cobra's? I'm fimiliar enough with the DSMs (eclipse, etc); they tend to have all the same stuff as the WRX for the most part.

Those foglights aren't legal....

--kC
:lol: :lol:

1. I need an emoticon for "weenie protest" :D

2. Adding ballast in my book.

3. Neither is my aluminum skidplate. Heavier than the plastic one. Refer again to comment 1 and 2.

Isn't the picture great though. Can't thank Makofoto enough that day.
He took tire temps for me and took great photos!!

Thanks again. :disco:

Just to add some more perspective...

I've been prepping an LS1 Camaro for ESP this year. After driving Sam's LS1 and Brian Burdette's LT1 last year, I decided it was the right move for me. It's amazing how much these cars force you to drive. Take a look at the pedigree of people that come from ponycars: Ames, Daddio, Kozlaks, Strano, Jr, etc. There's a reason - and it's why I bought one. It's sort of unfair to say it's dinosaur technology. Some of it certainly is, but hey, it works! And the front suspension works very well. For it's massive size, these things are surprisingly nimble on their feet. I'll also add, having come from a BMW, that simpler technology is really a plus on your wallet.

I've driven what is probably very close to a national level prep STX WRX (John Willemin's) as well as many Subaru's, and I used to own an FXT. A hybrid WRX is potentially an ESP class killer. Fedja in the DSM is gonna be really tough too. Anyway, There's 3 things I think that prevent it.. or have thus far.

1. It takes a lot of money
2. It takes someone interested in ESP, as most would just go start with an STI
3. Even after you build it, reliability is questionable: see STX and DSMs

As for the Camaro's, here's some specs for comparison purposes.
Mine stock made 307whp/306wtq
With 315s, 2nd goes to ~69-70 mph
With bushings, camber is -2-2.5
Weight is about 3400 lbs, if I can get under that I'll be happy.

I liked the feel of Brian's LT1 more, but hopefully I'll grow to like the LS1 too.

How much power can you make with engine mods in the Camaro? I could make 300+ hp with water injection and stock everything else, I'm sure. Certainly not going that route this year, though.

I'll go with the Rolls Royce answer: "Adequate" :)

Seriously, power is not an issue. It's an LSx motor, like Karen said, with intake/exhaust there's a good bit of power hiding under there. Don't see any reason it wouldn't be closer to 400 crank from what I know.

The issue is putting it down. Thus 315s. Thus full tank of gas. Etc.

great info....^^^ thanks...a tuned 2.5 can match it in torque...but not HP...
It could be argued that a fully prepped ESP WRX could actually contend for the title...on the other side of that...is the driver..:)...some might have the car...and could pay say....Mark Daddio to run it...then it might have a fight'n chance...;)

Bill

I think a well prepped WRX in ESP (not fully prepped) with a fairly decent top 10 national trophy level driver can beat Strano in the camaro, etc... especially on the Heartland Park surface. What I mean by fairly prepped... Good suspension, fender flares, wide tires, boost.

But that's just me.

--kC
(Gimme money to do this build for '08)

great info....^^^ thanks...a tuned 2.5 can match it in torque...but not HP...
It could be argued that a fully prepped ESP WRX could actually contend for the title...on the other side of that...is the driver..:)...some might have the car...and could pay say....Mark Daddio to run it...then it might have a fight'n chance...;)

Bill
A tuned 2.5 running C16, water injection and a good amount of boost, could definitely match the torque of an *SP LS1 Camaro AND I wouldn't be surprised if it'll match the power-to-weight ratio as well!

My D-stock '06 WRX TR weighed in at 3,056lbs w/o driver on my heavy factory wheels, 225/45/17 RE070's (27lbs a piece!) and just over a 1/3 tank of gas - a fully prepped DS 2.5 could probably just dip below 3,000lbs. Do *SP legal weight reduction/mods and a TR could dip down into the low 2,800lbs maybe even the high 2,700lbs range!

If the *SP Camaros have a racing weight in the 3,400lbs range, then a WRX could probably be down 50-60hp to one, but still have an equal power-to-weight ratio.

Good for you to go to EVO School ... best Mod.

This thread is making for interesting reading, as I am going to be competing this year in an FXT in ESP.

While I am a complete novice (I have yet to go to any AutoX), I just attended an Evolution school (Phase I and II), and I have a feeling it would have taken me a VERY long time to learn what I did in those two days.

My first real event is next weekend and I am raring to go.

I think a well prepped WRX in ESP (not fully prepped) with a fairly decent top 10 national trophy level driver can beat Strano in the camaro, etc... especially on the Heartland Park surface. What I mean by fairly prepped... Good suspension, fender flares, wide tires, boost.

But that's just me.

--kC
(Gimme money to do this build for '08)

Paypal addy????? $1 comin your way big boy..:)

A tuned 2.5 running C16, water injection and a good amount of boost, could definitely match the torque of an *SP LS1 Camaro AND I wouldn't be surprised if it'll match the power-to-weight ratio as well!

My D-stock '06 WRX TR weighed in at 3,056lbs w/o driver on my heavy factory wheels, 225/45/17 RE070's (27lbs a piece!) and just over a 1/3 tank of gas - a fully prepped DS 2.5 could probably just dip below 3,000lbs. Do *SP legal weight reduction/mods and a TR could dip down into the low 2,800lbs maybe even the high 2,700lbs range!

If the *SP Camaros have a racing weight in the 3,400lbs range, then a WRX could probably be down 50-60hp to one, but still have an equal power-to-weight ratio.

hmmmmmmmm...thats runnin mighty lean....I don't see it getting down that low....even with all the weight...I know a 04 WRX in STX trim...(Seats, no wing...pretty much every weight reduction thing available including SSR's and 245 Kumho' MX's...came in @ 2917 @ national's...(Superman's car)...I think it could be a contender...for sure...
most 06/07 WRX's with tune..is getting about 240ish hp...and right at 300 lb torque on our Dyno..(DynoPak) with nothing more than a Turboback...a tune and intake...some decent suspension...17x9's and at least 275's...oh and some LSD's in the tranny...I think I would micropolish and cryo treat the stock gears...No rule against that...:)...a lighter flywheel...better clutch...and a couple of spare axles...for the season...just need some Execution of this brilliant plan..;)...Oh..I forgot...a Tom Hoppe special Stock Turbo...;)

KC


Bill

hmmmmmmmm...thats runnin mighty lean....I don't see it getting down that low....even with all the weight...I know a 04 WRX in STX trim...(Seats, no wing...pretty much every weight reduction thing available including SSR's and 245 Kumho' MX's...came in @ 2917 @ national's...(Superman's car)...I think it could be a contender...for sure...
most 06/07 WRX's with tune..is getting about 240ish hp...and right at 300 lb torque on our Dyno..(DynoPak) with nothing more than a Turboback...a tune and intake...some decent suspension...17x9's and at least 275's...oh and some LSD's in the tranny...I think I would micropolish and cryo treat the stock gears...No rule against that...:)...a lighter flywheel...better clutch...and a couple of spare axles...for the season...just need some Execution of this brilliant plan..;)...Oh..I forgot...a Tom Hoppe special Stock Turbo...;)

KC


Bill
Bill,

I'm not sure about earlier WRX model years, but I do know that given time and money, I could get my DS WRX TR to dip below 3,000lbs - I'm currently at 3,025lbs on my racing wheels & tire combo (30+lbs less than my street wheels & tires). If I add *SP legal mods to my TR, weight reduction would be as follows :

lightweight catless TBE (i.e. titanium) = 30+lbs
coilovers = ~40lbs (over factory springs & struts)
lightweight battery = 15-20lbs
racing seats (driver & passenger) = 40lbs
a/c system removal (take out condenser, compressor, control unit, plumbing, etc) = 40-50lbs
17x9 SSR wheels w/ 275 or 285 rubber = ~10-15lbs (less than my current setup)
lightweight flywheel = ~10lbs
hollow swaybars f&r = 5-10lbs
This would put my theoretical *SP class TR in the 2,820-2,835lbs range (starting at my current 3,025lbs racing weight). And this is just getting started - I know once I crack open the rule book, there would be other areas where I could lose weight and 2,800lbs should be very attainable.

In regards to power, I've seen dyno plots of stock turbo '06 WRXs making 260-265whp on C16 with alky or water injection (~240whp on C16 alone), while also making over 300wtq! 260-265whp with a 20+% driveline loss would be 325-330hp at the crank.

As Mhyrr mentioned earlier, ESP LS1 camaros generally can make ~400hp at the crank but weigh 3,400lbs in racing trim.

3,400lbs / 400hp = 8.50 lbs/hp (LS1 Camaro)
2,800lbs / 330hp = 8.48 lbs/hp (ESP WRX TR)

Chike

Power band of the two?

Bill,

I'm not sure about earlier WRX model years, but I do know that given time and money, I could get my DS WRX TR to dip below 3,000lbs - I'm currently at 3,025lbs on my racing wheels & tire combo (30+lbs less than my street wheels & tires). If I add *SP legal mods to my TR, weight reduction would be as follows :

lightweight catless TBE (i.e. titanium) = 30+lbs
coilovers = ~40lbs (over factory springs & struts)
lightweight battery = 15-20lbs
racing seats (driver & passenger) = 40lbs
a/c system removal (take out condenser, compressor, control unit, plumbing, etc) = 40-50lbs
17x9 SSR wheels w/ 275 or 285 rubber = ~10-15lbs (less than my current setup)
lightweight flywheel = ~10lbs
hollow swaybars f&r = 5-10lbs
This would put my theoretical *SP class TR in the 2,820-2,835lbs range (starting at my current 3,025lbs racing weight). And this is just getting started - I know once I crack open the rule book, there would be other areas where I could lose weight and 2,800lbs should be very attainable.

In regards to power, I've seen dyno plots of stock turbo '06 WRXs making 260-265whp on C16 with alky or water injection (~240whp on C16 alone), while also making over 300wtq! 260-265whp with a 20+% driveline loss would be 325-330hp at the crank.

As Mhyrr mentioned earlier, ESP LS1 camaros generally can make ~400hp at the crank but weigh 3,400lbs in racing trim.

3,400lbs / 400hp = 8.50 lbs/hp (LS1 Camaro)
2,800lbs / 330hp = 8.48 lbs/hp (ESP WRX TR)

Chike
Header/uppipe will drop at LEAST another 20-30lbs.

--kC

Bill, are you joking again? There is no rule against cryo/REM'ing the gears, but there is also no rule allowing it. You might be able to shot peen the gears and you could certainly get away with cryo'd/REM'd gears, but I myself wouldn't feel particularly good about it. Probably won't solve the problem either. Near as I can tell from looking at pictures of popped trannies, the problem isn't the gears being weak it's that the case is flexible. Start pounding on the tranny and the gears will push each other apart. This puts a great deal of strain on the gear teeth, fatigue sets in and they gear teeth eventually fail.

One could avoid catastrophic failure by rebuilding the gearbox and replacing the gearsets on a regular basis. A tight build on the tranny might also keep the gears meshing as designed more consistently. IE, blue print the tranny and use the tight side of the tolerances.

Going back to the legality of cryo'd/REM'd gears, you might have some leeway in the "OEM equivalent" wording. My concience wouldn't let me do it, but you could source aftermarket gears of the same ratio that are stronger, REM'd, cryo'd, and shot peened. Maybe try tempering/hardening the gears yourself (may backfire if the issue is brittleness and not hardness in which case you could try to soften the gears and trade off a couple thousand miles of wear for keeping the teeth on the gear). Either way, it sounds like a seriously expensive way to play in SP. Too bad Subaru couldn't make a tranny like Honda. Nothing like a stock trans holding 600+hp and slicks at the drag strip...

How exactly are you saving weight going to a 275/9" combo? :confused:

I'm a little leary of presuming sub 2800lbs is possible, but I guess that's b/c I don't have a TR :lol: At any rate, like someone said way earlier in this thread, I think we have enough advantages over the DSM (that could've won this year) that a partially-prepped car could do very well nationally.

Give me money :)

How exactly are you saving weight going to a 275/9" combo? :confused:
17x9 Gram Lights (1lb lighter than SSR's) weigh ~15lbs each and 275/40/17 Hoosiers are 24lbs each which will equal 39lbs a corner.

My current 17x7 SPT wheels are 18.5lbs a piece and my 225/40/17 Victoracers are 23lbs each, which will equal 41.5lbs a corner.

Difference is 2.5lbs a corner x 4 = 10lbs.

Side note: The 245/40/17 Hoosiers I'll run at the Pro Solo are 21lbs a piece, so with those on my SPT wheels, the weight savings of a lightweight 275/9" combo will only be 2lbs total (0.5lbs a corner).

What about the mustang/cobra's? I'm fimiliar enough with the DSMs (eclipse, etc); they tend to have all the same stuff as the WRX for the most part.
The Mustangs aren't too much different from the F-bodies. In stock form, they are also traction limited, though their diffs are a bit better (and can be rebuilt, whereas the F-body cars have to just replace theirs). The mods you see on a Camarobird are what you'd see on a Mustang -- headers, intake, etc. -- but again, the first two for any serious ESP driver would be wider rims and a diff.

The Mustangs and Camaros handle differently -- mostly due to the softer springs on the stock Mustang and the fact that you sit a little higher in the Mustang -- but they are very evenly matched. Honestly, I'm surprised there aren't more Mustangs in the trophies in ESP. I think the only three SN95 chassis cars that I've seen regularly do well are Marcus Merideth's (nice car, and it's only gotten better since I drove it), Mark Jorgensen's and Dave Feighner's. There are a heck of a lot more Camaros out there, and again, I think it's just the lemming mentality. Since Ames won with the LT4 car now owned by Steve Eguina, it's pretty much been all about the Camaro (well, with that little rally car burble in 2005 ;) ). Considering there are some people who say that the new ('05+) Mustang is better than the F-bodies and the SN95s, it would be interesting to see someone prep one of those for ESP.

And Greg? I agree with you... I like Burdette's LT1 car better than Sammy's LS1. But I think part of that is just that Brian's car is set up a little tighter than Strano's, and I don't like extremely loose cars. I also like Brian's car better than Phil's SS. But then again, I have a thing for LT1s, wouldn't you say? ;)

Karen

If the *SP Camaros have a racing weight in the 3,400lbs range, then a WRX could probably be down 50-60hp to one, but still have an equal power-to-weight ratio.
If an ESP Camaro has a racing weight of 3400lbs, they've done nothing to take weight out of it. My optionless cars weigh in just over 3400lbs (on the Summit Point scales) in FS trim. And my "racing rims" are the OE 16x8 alloys. LS1 cars weigh about the same with minimally better distribution due to the aluminum LS1 block.

Greg's car is the one previously owned by Tommy Pulliam, and it was "barely" ESP trim. There was no weight reduction done on that car, so it's no surprise it still weighs in at 3400ish.

Karen

I think there's also something in the notion that it takes a bit less money to fully prep a Camaro than a Mustang.. at least for an LS1. That's probably not true for an LT1 w/ an LT4 swap.

As for weight reduction, I'm actually basing that number off of other people, not my particular car. Thing is.. there's not a lot of places to lose weight moving to ESP. Seats? Nope, stock ones are the same weight. Headers? Maybe a touch. Flywheel/Clutch drops a bit. Battery? Nope. Wheels/tires actually weigh more. Oh, and I'm planning on running a full tank of gas to get more weight over the drive wheels. AC is staying in to start with until I determine defrost possibilities. Since the Scirocco, I've been a weight Nazi, and it worked with the BMW. This car is different. There are some other little, slightly more trick things I'll do eventually.. but it's hard to justify a kart passenger seat for ~12 lbs when that's .3% of the car :) So it's just not as big a thing.

The other thing is, I'm not terribly worried. Strano one, and his car and he aren't light.. and he beat Motonishi (150 lb guy) in probably the lightest LS1 out there. It's just a big car.

And yes Karen, I do agree you have a unhealthy thing for LT1s ;)

So what do you guys recommend for Camber plates? I'm getting ready to run ESP and can't decide what plates to get, I'm currently using stock top hats on Koni/GC dampers/springs. I was looking into the RCE but they're really expensive, and I can't seem to find any info on anything else. I know theres Noltec, Whiteline, Cusco and possible GC out there. What do you guys think?

Ground Control top mounts are nice (of course I haven't used anything else, so I can't compare)

I'll be moving to CUSCO coils so I'll be using their tops.

I have a set of CUSCO fronts hats that I can sell to you but you need to make sure the struts will fit the top hat. That's why I don't have them on now, my agx's don't fit them.

You know, I got to thinking yesterday, as tempting as ESP may be, building an 'STi Lite' out of a bugeye WRX, I think this could be a bad year for anyone to start a new *SP build.

Remember, the BMW DSP -> BSP move got shot down in favor of a larger shake up for '08. I don't think a rally car specific SP class could be out of the question, it may be better idea to wait and see what unfolds next season before anyone starts to drop cash on a build up.

So what do you guys recommend for Camber plates? I'm getting ready to run ESP and can't decide what plates to get, I'm currently using stock top hats on Koni/GC dampers/springs. I was looking into the RCE but they're really expensive, and I can't seem to find any info on anything else. I know theres Noltec, Whiteline, Cusco and possible GC out there. What do you guys think?

I have the noltec camber/caster plates and so far so good.

You know, I got to thinking yesterday, as tempting as ESP may be, building an 'STi Lite' out of a bugeye WRX, I think this could be a bad year for anyone to start a new *SP build.

Remember, the BMW DSP -> BSP move got shot down in favor of a larger shake up for '08. I don't think a rally car specific SP class could be out of the question, it may be better idea to wait and see what unfolds next season before anyone starts to drop cash on a build up.

Already mentioned at least twice in this thread. Everyone is pretty much in agreement. I doubt you'll see many new SP cars being built this year. You also won't see many moving very quickly that are for sale.

I have the noltec camber/caster plates and so far so good.

I also have the Noltec race version top hats and haven't had any problems. They're the ones Steve recommended with his coilovers so I didn’t even consider any other ones.

Already mentioned at least twice in this thread. Everyone is pretty much in agreement. I doubt you'll see many new SP cars being built this year. You also won't see many moving very quickly that are for sale.

I guess that's what I get for only checking in every few days :p

Hey, can we talk rules for a second? I'm looking at what can be done and am I reading it correctly that I can get a bigger TMIC, but not a bigger hood scoop (ie JDM STI)?

Hey, can we talk rules for a second? I'm looking at what can be done and am I reading it correctly that I can get a bigger TMIC, but not a bigger hood scoop (ie JDM STI)?
Correct.

So there's really no way around it despite it being standard equipment on the sti model, even though it obviously sold in the US?

And just to add another question. It says no side skirts are allowed. Now I'm assuming since I have stock thats fine, but would that imply me putting STi side skirts on would be illegal?

So there's really no way around it despite it being standard equipment on the sti model, even though it obviously sold in the US?
The STi and WRX are not on the same *SP line. STi is in BSP, WRX is in ESP. You could go through the expense of swapping an '06+ WRX front end & hood to get the larger hood scoop. However, for a short 45-60 second run, heat soak is the least of your worries with a stock '02-'05 WRX scoop... ;)

But still take the time to spray down your IC with that garden sprayer that you're using on your tires ... it DOES make a Difference.

The STi and WRX are not on the same *SP line. STi is in BSP, WRX is in ESP. You could go through the expense of swapping an '06+ WRX front end & hood to get the larger hood scoop. However, for a short 45-60 second run, heat soak is the least of your worries with a stock '02-'05 WRX scoop... ;)

Exactly. For short aggressive runs (like autocross), a great majority of the function of the IC is as a heat-sink rather than a heat exchanger. Just make sure to cool it off between runs so you get your "heat sink capacity" back. :lol:

As for the brake pad topic...I always had great luck with the Carbotech Bobcats on my 99RS (with stock brakes). I had great luck with the Panther Plus pads as well when I started doing track stuff (Carbotech has now replaced the Panther Plus with the "AX6" compound, which I haven't actually used yet, but I'll be putting them on my 89 MR2 since it will see track duty).

I was looking at swapping to the jdm scoop as to max out the rules but as mentioned above, it is not legal as it is considered aftermarket because it was not an option in the US. Disappointing being that you can put a jdm front end or any front spoiler/bumper on but not a hood scoop. I can see where they are coming from but if the car already has a scoop, I see no advantage really in going bigger except for looks.

Let me ask this question, since my adjustable shocks are adjusted at the top I have to remove the back of the rear seat to adjust them. Locally, nobody will challenge me because I keep the bottom of the seats in so technically there is still seats, just no back. Is this SP legal? I want to know before someone challenges me at a divisional because they hate subarus. :)

It isn't legal in Street Prepared. However, if you are just trying to access the adjuster without removing the seat each time, in Stock class there is an allowance to make minimal modification to interior panels to accomodate strut/shock adjustment, so you could do something along the lines of a hole in the rear deck instead (if you don't have a problem with putting a hole in your rear deck that is).

"13.5.F: A hole may be added to an interior body panel to provide access
to the adjustment mechanism on an allowed adjustable shock
absorber. The hole may serve no other purpose, and may not be
added through either the exterior bodywork or a strut bar. Interior
panels are defined to be those pieces which cover the interior of
the vehicle and are accessible from inside the vehicle. They do
not include structural panels, such as wheel wells or inner fenders,
which may also be accessible from inside the car but which
actually form part of the body of the vehicle."

I was looking at swapping to the jdm scoop as to max out the rules but as mentioned above, it is not legal as it is considered aftermarket because it was not an option in the US. Disappointing being that you can put a jdm front end or any front spoiler/bumper on but not a hood scoop. I can see where they are coming from but if the car already has a scoop, I see no advantage really in going bigger except for looks.

Let me ask this question, since my adjustable shocks are adjusted at the top I have to remove the back of the rear seat to adjust them. Locally, nobody will challenge me because I keep the bottom of the seats in so technically there is still seats, just no back. Is this SP legal? I want to know before someone challenges me at a divisional because they hate subarus. :)

Mine are in the same place...I mount the seatback without "hooking" it in on each side...there is still a center hook that can be latched..that way you can "pull" the seat back enough to reach the adjusters...:)

Bill

My strategy (read laziness) is to just rest the back seat up and buckle the seat belts....

My strategy (read laziness) is to just rest the back seat up and buckle the seat belts....

I've been doing the same for about 3 weeks pending taking my car in for alignment. Too lazy to bolt it back up right now :) They aren't going anywhere.

I can see where they are coming from but if the car already has a scoop, I see no advantage really in going bigger except for looks.There is an advantage. It allows more air over the heat sink.

--kC

Mine are in the same place...I mount the seatback without "hooking" it in on each side...there is still a center hook that can be latched..that way you can "pull" the seat back enough to reach the adjusters...:)

Bill

I put the bolts in their repective locations, rotate the heads of the bolts so the seat attachments fit over the bolt head but not underneath it. This way the seat is completely loose in there. I have had it this way for 2 seasons and the seat has never budged during a run.

Ohlins has a nice rear compression adjustment knob that is connected through a cable from above the rear seat to underneath. I've heard of a couple folks locally doing the same with their KWs (cept for its rebound) with some fabricated stuff. I don't adjust rebound as much as compression, so having inverted struts makes is a tid bit less usefull, but its nice to leave the seat hooked in all the way. So it's possible to be convenient and legal, you just have to be crafty or have a heavy wallet too.

Ok, I'm back with another annoying proposition!

I was reviewing the SP rules and noticed something. 15.1c pretty much says you can interchange parts from different year/model cars as long as it was stock equipment on that car. Therefore I have to come to the conclusion that bugeyes can have JDM STi hoodscoops!

Now, tell me why I'm wrong...

^
I'm not following your logic? Was the USDM bugeye ever sold in this country with the JDM STi hoodscoop? If the answer is no, then you cannot use it in SP.

My thinking is that it doesn't specify that the model from which your replacing parts has to be from this country (or maybe it does somewhere else?). And since the STi scoop is stock on the JDM STi from 01-02 then it should be allowed.

My thinking is that it doesn't specify that the model from which your replacing parts has to be from this country (or maybe it does somewhere else?). And since the STi scoop is stock on the JDM STi from 01-02 then it should be allowed.
The JDM Impreza isn't eligible for stock class in the SCCA. All stock class cars must be sold in the USA.

Someone made a post a while ago about where an imported Skyline GT-R would be classed in SCCA autox. The answer was AM.

My thinking is that it doesn't specify that the model from which your replacing parts has to be from this country (or maybe it does somewhere else?). And since the STi scoop is stock on the JDM STi from 01-02 then it should be allowed.

It does say that if it does not say you can then you cant.

15. STREET PREPARED CATEGORY
Cars running in Street Prepared Category must have been series
produced with normal road touring equipment, capable of being
licensed for normal road use in the United States, and normally sold
and delivered through the manufacturer’s retail sales outlets in the
United States. Cars not specifically listed in Stock or Street
Prepared Category classes in Appendix A must have been produced
in quantities of at least 1000 in a 12 month period to be eligible for
Street Prepared Category.

Damn... I really want the stupid scoop but having to change it every event will drive me nuts. Oh well...

Ok, I'm back with another annoying proposition!

I was reviewing the SP rules and noticed something. 15.1c pretty much says you can interchange parts from different year/model cars as long as it was stock equipment on that car. Therefore I have to come to the conclusion that bugeyes can have JDM STi hoodscoops!

Now, tell me why I'm wrong... Read the 1st sentence in the street prepared rules. The very 1st sentence.

--kC

Even still, does it say that parts used from other cars have to be from US cars? Obviously I'm not using a JDM car, just a part off of one...

These rules are starting to get really annoying...

If you're going to "swap" parts from one car to another through update backdate, both the donor car and car you're modifying must have been available through dealers in the US AND Listed in Appendix A on the SAME line.
My thinking is that it doesn't specify that the model from which your replacing parts has to be from this country (or maybe it does somewhere else?). And since the STi scoop is stock on the JDM STi from 01-02 then it should be allowed.
You're looking to use a JDM Scoop from a JDM car that was never sold here under the guise of update/backdate (15.1.c) , right? Well, that JDM car is not, nor was it ever, sold here in the US... so no, you cannot use any parts from JDM cars unless the modifications you wish to make are specifically allowed through the rules such as: "Changing of hoodscoops is open".

Any updating or backdating of parts has to be from US cars as listed in Appendix A. Again, the 1st sentence. Besides, An STi and a WRX are on different lines in different classes ANYWAYS. It *STILL* wouldn't be legal even if you *could* update/backdate JDM cars. WRX != STi. 2 Different classes. (And at that, the STis listed in BSP are '04+ so even further making what you want to do... not doable.)

These rules are starting to get really annoying...Actually, they're rather simple. You shoudl see the rule book my wife got in from the US Equestrian Foundation... yikes.

--kC

Even still, does it say that parts used from other cars have to be from US cars? Obviously I'm not using a JDM car, just a part off of one...

These rules are starting to get really annoying...
You're beating a dead horse...

IMHO, the only way you can run a larger hood scoop legally in SP is to do a full exterior conversion to the '04-'05 front end or the '06-'07 front end.

You're beating a dead horse...

IMHO, the only way you can run a larger hood scoop legally in SP is to do a full exterior conversion to the '04-'05 front end or the '06-'07 front end. He's got a WRX... did they even have STi scoops as a factory option?

--kC

He's got a WRX... did they even have STi scoops as a factory option?

--kC
He has a bugeye WRX which has a tiny hood scoop. The '04-'05 WRX scoop is larger, and the '06-'07 WRX scoop is the same size as the STI for these model years.

You shoudl see the rule book my wife got in from the US Equestrian Foundation... yikes.

--kC

You're beating a dead horse...

Is that forbidden in the rulebook :)

^
LMAO! :lol: :lol: :lol:

He has a bugeye WRX which has a tiny hood scoop. The '04-'05 WRX scoop is larger, and the '06-'07 WRX scoop is the same size as the STI for these model years.

OK then. :)

Ugh, well I know now you guys are right, but you can't blame me for trying! As for the rule book, simple and annoying are two entirely different things :)

Not sure if anyone tried this angle yet.

The hood scoop is a functional part of the intake system, intakes are pretty much wide open in SP classes. Just because our intercoolers are on top of our motors doesn't mean we should be limited in the amount of air getting to it based on the scoop being deemed a JDM body mod. EVO's with front mounts are able to get better cooling by swapping in a bigger intercooler.
Why should TMIC's be penalized?

I know, I know, this is a bit weak, just trying another angle....

And yes, I put my OE one back on.
Last picture around here showed me with the JDM one.

does air through the hoodscoop go anywhere other than into the engine? Its clearly part of the hood, not the intake.

Not sure if anyone tried this angle yet.

The hood scoop is a functional part of the intake system, intakes are pretty much wide open in SP classes. Just because our intercoolers are on top of our motors doesn't mean we should be limited in the amount of air getting to it based on the scoop being deemed a JDM body mod. EVO's with front mounts are able to get better cooling by swapping in a bigger intercooler.
Why should TMIC's be penalized?

I know, I know, this is a bit weak, just trying another angle....

And yes, I put my OE one back on.
Last picture around here showed me with the JDM one.

So when you get protested and you open your factory shop manual to show the PC that the hood is part of your induction system it will be in that section? They wont find the hood in section under bodywork? If someone was to call an order the complete "induction system" for your car or any year you claim to be doing an update/backdate with it will come with a hood?

Explain to me how a hood scoop that only feeds are to an inter-cooler has anything to do with induction? Does that air some how find its way into the intake system as well?

This is the reason the rule book is so big and full of crap now, they have to cover every angle for guys that cant work with the rules and think they need an edge.:rolleyes:

So when you get protested and you open your factory shop manual to show the PC that the hood is part of your induction system it will be in that section? They wont find the hood in section under bodywork? If someone was to call an order the complete "induction system" for your car or any year you claim to be doing an update/backdate with it will come with a hood?

Explain to me how a hood scoop that only feeds are to an inter-cooler has anything to do with induction? Does that air some how find its way into the intake system as well?

This is the reason the rule book is so big and full of crap now, they have to cover every angle for guys that cant work with the rules and think they need an edge.:rolleyes:

Just keeping the thread lively here, didn't think my stab at this would hold any water. I never did state that I thought the air went into the engine some how through the hood scoop, duh. But, it does serve a systemic function to the effective density and temperature of the air charge on boost. That's the link I was trying to establish.

Just keeping the thread lively here, didn't think my stab at this would hold any water. I never did state that I thought the air went into the engine some how through the hood scoop, duh. But, it does serve a systemic function to the effective density and temperature of the air charge on boost. That's the link I was trying to establish.


Wow I never thought of it that way. :rolleyes:

We should start to allow aftermarket radiators in SP now because almost every car has a coolant line to the throttle body, but fuel injection is open and a replacement throttle body might not have the coolant passage and that would leave you with no place to hook up the coolant line which would leave you with an unsafe leak. Plus the heat of the motor is directly related to the density of the intake charge so the radiator should fall under the intake and fuel injection allowances. :lol:

So the season has begun and I snagged a few pics of the build in action on course. I posted in the picture section...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1251725

So the season has begun and I snagged a few pics of the build in action on course. I posted in the picture section...

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1251725

Cool man, what tyres will you be on?

It will definitely be the v710, I can't afford hoosier and my loyalty won't let me :D

The real question is if I can afford some custom 17x9/10 and some 275s :(


anyone want to donate a light set of 17x9 or 17x10 that will fit the bugeye? I'll return them after September... :)

I don't remember seeing, but are you going to stuff a 2.5L in the car?

not unless you're going to donate one! :D

The 2.5 is definitely what is needed for some extra power, but the eclipses are only 2L and one placed third last year. I don't think that extra half liter will help, I need to focus on the driver mod. I'm waiting on a few things to clear the ol' account and then I should be registering for the Evo school in St Louis next month.

Well, this weekend was my first time in ESP. Did ok for the conditions I think. First, my 17x8.5 Advans won;t arrive until June, so my 255's are in the basement. That said, I found a good deal on some brand new Z211's on wrx wheels and bought them the morning of the autox. For my first run I was pretty slow, 63.xxx (FTD 55.75). On my second run I was able to drop to my best of 60.222, and had consecutive 61s for the rest of the day. Oh yea, 2 cones on all runs lol. Yes, I got beat by the fbody's...but I was only about .5seconds behind the guy in front of me, and maybe 1-1.5 off the leader.

The course wasn't 2L friendly, 3 places where you could have dropped 1st. I was dying in those spots. But overall, for my first time on R compounds I was happy. After a few events I think I'll have the tires down pretty good.

Now my concern is, what will I like better, 225 R comps or 255 Azenis?

pics:
http://solopix.flr-scca.com/2007/4-29-07/img_8607.jpg
http://solopix.flr-scca.com/2007/4-29-07/img_8606.jpg

The Rs make a world of difference man.

How are you liking your z211's? They are my first set of R tires and I like them a lot, but don't have much to compare them to. They are surely MUCH better than any of the hi-perf street tires I ran last year in STU.

They're amazing. I had Azenis last year when I ran STX and I can't believe the difference. I've never had so much grip before, I can only imagine what 275's feel like. I'm pretty excited to get to the next event now that I know how fast I can go on them. One thing I noticed too, braking is so much better, I have hawk hp+ pads and with these tires I'm stopping on a dime. So happy I decided to buy them.

This thread seems dead lately...

Anyway, FLR event #2 was this weekend and I had another go at it. Ended up placing first in ESP, beating out 2 Camaro SS's on 275 r comps :)

Car felt good, we did a little last minute tuning and setup me up to hold the wastegate closed till 10psi, turned out awesome as it was a really fast course and I never found myself out of full boost.

Have a few questions about camber though. I'm running Koni/GC suspension with stock tophats. I have some GC camber plates yet to be put on but will do shortly. I noticed on my front tires, the inside edges are barely worn (in comparison to outside edges) and they are noticeably colder to the touch that the outside edge. Now, is it possible to know if this is caused by tire pressure or by lack of neg front camber without a pyrometer? I plan on buying one but for now, would you guys agree that this is definetly because of lack of neg camber?

My rear tires are more even, but they too are more worn on the outside than inside.

Hopefully I'll be getting the Whiteline 27mm front sway next week also, I'm looking forward to that. What endlinks are you guys using for it?

one pic for the hell of it...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/218/497195282_e0c09f8028_b.jpg

I'd wager it's definitely camber and not tire pressure. There's not enough camber adjustability in the stock front to get enough to make your R tires happy.

More negative camber! Until you get to at least -3deg don't even ask if it's because of camber or pressure :)

I use whiteline's spherical adjustable units...but I'm not sure I'd get them again. They just look trashy after only a year. The dust boots are all messed up and the links never seem to stay positioned quite right.


edit: damn he beat me to it! :lol:

? ... of course that's why you need camber plates, to get the tire flat on the ground under cornering. With Camber Plates, the front insides should typically be a bit warmer then the outsides, with the center between the two. Inside should be about 10 degrees warmer then the outside. The Inside of the inside tire gets dragged across the corner. Even a cheap Sears infrared pyrometer can be a help if used immediately after coming in. Obviously a needle pyrometer measures deeper in, so it's more accurate to get carcass temperatures as opposed to just surface temperature which is more greatly effected by the last corner or two.

Definitely the lack of camber. I can't wait for my 2r's to go on in a couple of weeks. I'm aiming for -5* up front as long as the toe doesn't get too messed up going from street to track setting.

I used the PolTec endlinks that were recomended in this thread. They're noisey but seem to hold well so far and defiitely compliment the cusco bars.

I'll toss a pic in for hell of it too: :D
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n230/digitalseance/dsracing/FH010032.jpg

OK, I definitely thought it was camber and you guys confirmed it. The ground control plates are going on Saturday, although I won't have a chance to test them out until mid June!

I'll check out the poltec endlinks, I read somewhere that certain types of links weren't good for the big bars so I wanted to make sure I get the ones that are ok.

Ok, I'm bad at interpreting the rules I guess. Would a STi v2 front lip be considered a front spoiler, and allowed in esp? Would the OEM rear kit be ok then as well?


ya I know I'm lame....

I think it would be legal as it would be in ST and those body rules carry over to SP.

your not lame, legit question, the lame one is the one not asked :P

Good to know, I'd like to get them after I finish my suspension work, which is nearly done. Just wanted to make sure its legal despite no one really caring in my region, unless I keep winning (cross fingers).

Now I have to work on not hitting cones and breaking the lip. 13 in 2 events so far....

Just remember, when in doubt, try the scca forums

13 in 2 events? Slow in, fast out... :D

13 in 2 events? Slow in, fast out... :D

I always forget scca forums for some reason, I have to visit more often.

Yea, I am too slow in the slaloms, I turn to late, hence the cones....:)

I'll let you know how close I can get to Strano at our next event in my mid-prepped 06 WRX with 275 notReallyMadeForAutocrossRcomps

Any word on how close you came? I've got a guy in my local region that called up Strano and mimicked his entire setup (coilovers, spring rate, etc). the only thing he didn't mimic was the wheels as he likes to use 19s in the front to increase steering response to his driving style. :(

I'm over a second slower on most days. I didn't realize I was loosing tires so that could be a consideration. I used jbracingtires and have some Hoosiers on the way so that should help some.

He hasn't been to any Philly region events yet, and I haven't been anywhere else yet this season.

He hasn't been to any Philly region events yet, and I haven't been anywhere else yet this season.
How well did you do time-wise at the last Warminster event in comparison to Mike Hoyer in his DS '06 WRX?

I don't want to talk about it :) I'm putting that event behind me. In fact, I've already purged it from my mind, thanks for brining it up.

Since this thread hasn't been touched in a couple of weeks, I figured I'll bring it back to life yet again.

I've gotten my Cusco Zero-2Rs installed with 11kg/mm front and 9kg/mm rear spring rates and the shocks set on 4 up front and 5 in the rear. I didn't go with the v710s as you can't get the 245's anymore and I couldn't afford new tires at the time. So, I called JBRacingTires and got 2 slightly used 245/40/17 A6s and two same size R6s. I'm using the A6s up front and the R6s in the rear. With the cusco rear sway bar set to the largest as the Poltec endlinks in combination with the R6s, the car is tail happy when you lift slightly but I like it like that so I can steer with the throttle a little more than the agx setup. I'm loving the high spring rates and shocks. I'm about to rattle my teeth out while driving anywhere but it comes to life on the course and really plants itself through the sweepers and hard turns.

I got first place at the first divisional event beating out a two driver z28 but it is nowhere near fully or even partially prepped. This next weekend I'll be at the national tour event and seem to be up against 2 strano z28s, a mach 1, and a '70 trans am. I guess it will be a good sample of what could be seen at Topeka this year if I make it out there.

Here's a couple of vids from the divisional:
Run 7 (outside view from a spectator): http://www.myscca.com/community/video/video.do?method=videoDetail&svideoId=IwMDcw
Session 1 quickest (1.2s lead): http://www.myscca.com/community/video/video.do?method=videoDetail&svideoId=IwMDgw
Session 2 quickest (ended w/ .6s lead): http://www.myscca.com/community/video/video.do?method=videoDetail&svideoId=IwMDkw

It was mentioned in Vikingmoose's thread, but the last slalom of your videos look like DNFs. Here was your explanation:



Nice Launch.
Was that run a DNF? it looked like you missed the long curved slalom on the way back?

No, the ideal route back was different than going in; it was the opposite way so you cut a cone going out vs cutting one coming in. It put me in 1st ahead of 2 z28s by 1.2s


I don't see anything signifying that you're allowed to skip that first slalom cone of the last slalom coming back. How does your region inform the competitors of this? Is it announced or noted on a course map? Unless it's not even a slalom cone. If that's the case, it looks really confusing!

I'm confused as I think it must not be a slalom cone you're talking about. I'm about to leave work and get the trailer packed for this weekend's event but if I get a chance, I'll draw the first half of the course in photoshop or something and upload an image of the first half leading into the 90* turn going onto the runway. The first slalom was optional in direction...

I'll nail a cone if I'm going to DNF! time+cone is better than DNF

I noticed the same thing. The red line is the line you took and the blue line would seem to me to be the correct line.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/waktasz/wrongline.jpg

I agree too.

The red line would be faster for sure....

AHHHH, I SEE...

That's a gate that you think is a slalom cone. In the picture here, it's where I have the box:

http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n230/digitalseance/divisionalslalom.jpg

Ah, that makes sense. Seems like they should've used double cones or something to signify that it was a gate.

2.5 block
Bigger TMIC
Exhaust
Tune
suspension
275+ tires...
front, center, rear Diff
PPG Gear set..;)
Quick question Bill - is the PPG gearset legal for *SP? Also, typically what front and rear diffs are best suited for the 5spd WRX trans & R160 rear diff?

My car now has 36,001 miles on the odometer and is officially out-of-warranty. I'll definitely stay in DS for another season or two, but I'm *thinking* about turning her into an *SP car in the coming years (maybe even spend a season in STU after I get a good suspension installed).

Top on my list for a decent ESP effort in an '06 WRX:
-285/30/18 A6's (all the meaty 17" A6's raise the gearing too much)
-1.5 way rear diff & a decent front lsd
-Solid set of coil-overs, camber plates & strut bar (zzyzx, etc.)
-Titanium TBE
-Alky kit & tune
-Largest TMIC I can stuff under the hood
-Hollow front and rear swaybars (probably 24-25mm bars)

Chike

P.S. Just thinking out loud here. Not sure what I'll do next. Once the kids are out of daycare, I'll have copious amounts of disposable income...

P.P.S. What items are generally legal to remove for *SP weight reduction? Swap front seats to racing seats, smaller battery, remove a/c...

^^ You can't run alky...water injection only.

^^ You can't run alky...water injection only.
Gotcha. Any idea what a properly tuned TD04 on either race gas, E85 or water injection can do? Would be awesome if they brought E85 to VA - I'd skip the water injection kit and just get a tune on that alone. :devil:

Not sure, but it would be fun :)

Not sure, but it would be fun :)
Looks like I found my answer in this thread - ~250whp & ~350wtq!!! :devil:

http://walloftvs.org/images/tuning/combined%20%20pulls.JPG
http://walloftvs.org/images/tuning/pull%203.JPG

249whp / 347wtq (lol!) :banana: :disco:

2006 WRX wagon

stock td04 turbo
100% e85 fuel
TXS catless stealthback, Prodrive axelback
Crucial uppipe
STi tmic + splitter & boot
GM BCS

....& finally some ecu trickery by yours truely. :devil:

For some reason my first run didn't hit target boost; the next two were about a half pound under target from what I'm tuned for on the street according to the datalogs I pulled from the runs.

There was a stock '06 STi there that did a pull, but I forgot what the number was (I'll report back when I get a hold of him). Also, there were a pair of '06 TRs with vf39s that both put down ~300wtq/250whp. There were also several stage 2 WRX (2 liter) that put down numbers in the 200whp/225wtq range. Hope that provides a good reference.

Yes, my car is fun to drive, lol. And yes, sometimes a little booze in the gas tank is a good thing. :Dhttp://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1268278

In that tune, his TD04 peaked at 19psi...tapering to just 9psi at redline! :lol:

One more question: I know you can legally program in a 2-step launch control system in your ECU for *SP, but what about an anti-lag system? While the TD04 is small, having no lag whatsoever would be nice when you're tying to chase down someone like Strano in his ESP Camaro. :cool:

Joel always told me that the Mustang dyno reads.... "optimistically," so take that FWIW.

Looks like I found my answer in this thread - ~250whp & ~350wtq!!! :devil:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1268278

In that tune, his TD04 peaked at 19psi...tapering to just 9psi at redline! :lol:

One more question: I know you can legally program in a 2-step launch control system in your ECU for *SP, but what about an anti-lag system? While the TD04 is small, having no lag whatsoever would be nice when you're tying to chase down someone like Strano in his ESP Camaro. :cool:

I have my car tuned to 18.4 psi peak with 93 octane :devil:

Inaccurate road dyno plot to follow

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/waktasz/mydyno.jpg

Joel always told me that the Mustang dyno reads.... "optimistically," so take that FWIW.
Gotcha, but from my experience Mustang dynos aren't as high reading as Dynojets.

The owner of the above tuned '06 wagon with E85, did state the following about comparative dyno numbers for other cars on that dyno:
Stock STis put down ~215-220 on this dyno according to the operator and a pair of protuned vf39 '06 WRXs put down ~300wtq/250whp on the same day as my pulls. One of them was tuned by Clark - it put down 302wtq/254whp about an hour after my car was on the dyno.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=18155314&postcount=40

I have my car tuned to 18.4 psi peak with 93 octane :devil:
I'd be interested in seeing a dyno graph if you ever get the car dyno'd at Agile or Altered Atmosphere. :cool: From the road dyno numbers though, your car looks quite 'peppy'!!! ;) :devil:

P.S. Just thinking out loud here. Not sure what I'll do next. Sell it and get a better car? :lol: I'm looking at the cubic $$ that's going to have to be spent to the WRX to make it nationally competitive and even back 3 years ago, it was something I considered before I decided to sell the wagon. Heck, in '04 I ran the 1st couple local events in ESP and ran out of $$. Take your budget, and your mod list and don't forget to add in 2-3 sets of Hoosiers or Kumhos per year if you want to do Pros and Tours and locals.

It's not like you can say "$1200 for tires for the year". Ain't gonna happen. At least triple it. NOW how much are you gonna pay for your mods? It was then and there I said "SP in a car that's going to not only need,m but eat up, big tires ain't for me." $3,600 in tires/year. Ummm... I bought, modded and whatnot my Civic for less than that one year tire budget. It really opened my eyes up on that one!

Once the kids are out of daycare, I'll have copious amounts of disposable income... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Yeah.... RIGHT! I'll believe that when I sees it.

--kC

^^ I'm the same way...In 12 more years when I don't have a mortgage payment worth of college loans a month, I'll be so rich!

Sell it and get a better car? :lol: I'm looking at the cubic $$ that's going to have to be spent to the WRX to make it nationally competitive and even back 3 years ago, it was something I considered before I decided to sell the wagon. Heck, in '04 I ran the 1st couple local events in ESP and ran out of $$. Take your budget, and your mod list and don't forget to add in 2-3 sets of Hoosiers or Kumhos per year if you want to do Pros and Tours and locals.
LOL! Looking at what it'll cost to truly build a nationally competitive ESP car, 10K would just be cracking the tip of the iceberg for what I'd want to do. I'm not ruling it out as a possibility, as my wife and I get year-end bonuses in that range, but we'll see what the future holds. Maybe an STX bugeye is in my future... :cool:

Btw, I spend $1,800 a month in daycare and pre-school! ;)

Holy schnikies!

Yeah, wow. Really? Yikes.

--kC

Holy schnikies!

Yeah, wow. Really? Yikes.

--kC
100% honest. My 4yr old goes to a private pre-school where he's taught by a teacher with a Master's degree ($$$). My newborn goes to a regular daycare that's *only* 800/mo - and once she's 2.5yrs old, she'll be going to that the same preschool that my son's attending. :eek:

I like Scoobies, and I'll like to try my hand in another class with my '06 WRX in another 1-2 seasons. Maybe I'll give STU a crack or do a trade with someone for an STX bugeye. :lol:

Quick question Bill - is the PPG gearset legal for *SP? Also, typically what front and rear diffs are best suited for the 5spd WRX trans & R160 rear diff?

My car now has 36,001 miles on the odometer and is officially out-of-warranty. I'll definitely stay in DS for another season or two, but I'm *thinking* about turning her into an *SP car in the coming years (maybe even spend a season in STU after I get a good suspension installed).

Top on my list for a decent ESP effort in an '06 WRX:
-285/30/18 A6's (all the meaty 17" A6's raise the gearing too much)
-1.5 way rear diff & a decent front lsd
-Solid set of coil-overs, camber plates & strut bar (zzyzx, etc.)
-Titanium TBE
-Alky kit & tune
-Largest TMIC I can stuff under the hood
-Hollow front and rear swaybars (probably 24-25mm bars)

Chike

P.S. Just thinking out loud here. Not sure what I'll do next. Once the kids are out of daycare, I'll have copious amounts of disposable income...

P.P.S. What items are generally legal to remove for *SP weight reduction? Swap front seats to racing seats, smaller battery, remove a/c...

Well...not sure on the rule on that...."suitable replacement parts are authorized....".....sooo its left to rule interpitation...

Cusco, Kaz or the Helix Diffs are what most that I know use...if your into exotic...then maybe the Gymkana STi Diffs...

Bill

Well...not sure on the rule on that...."suitable replacement parts are authorized....".....sooo its left to rule interpitation...

Cusco, Kaz or the Helix Diffs are what most that I know use...if your into exotic...then maybe the Gymkana STi Diffs...

Bill
Awesome. Thanks Bill. :)

Chike

One more question: I know you can legally program in a 2-step launch control system in your ECU for *SP, but what about an anti-lag system? While the TD04 is small, having no lag whatsoever would be nice when you're tying to chase down someone like Strano in his ESP Camaro. :cool:

Is this type of thing that scares me for *SP. Let's say you have both fuel cut and spark cut going on to control these things. I don't think either of them adds up to longevity.

lean/rich lean/rich lean/rich, blammo, the lump done blow'd up.


But then again it'd be like a racehorse, it can only run that way so long.;)

Now that I have a spare trans, you can put me in the hunt for ESP. Maybe I can be illegal there too. :lol:

when I don't know. It's up to the CFO.

I highly doubt PPGs would be considered acceptable in ESP :p

I may be making an honest attempt at ESP next year with my current neon codriver. We'll see how it plays out, but he really wants to, and we're young and wreckless (ie we don't have wives and kids to waste money on!) 285/30/18? No, no Chike. We have something MUCH smaller in diameter in mind. *cough 2" shorter than stock*

I may be making an honest attempt at ESP next year with my current neon codriver. We'll see how it plays out, but he really wants to, and we're young and wreckless (ie we don't have wives and kids to waste money on!) 285/30/18? No, no Chike. We have something MUCH smaller in diameter in mind. *cough 2" shorter than stock*
275/35/15 A6's. ;) I thought of that, but the 285/30/18 seems to be a set-up that John Tak, Andy Lieber and Mark Daddio have all gone with on BSP/SM Evos. I don't see why that set-up couldn't work on a 2.5L WRX/STi...

LOL! Looking at what it'll cost to truly build a nationally competitive ESP car, 10K would just be cracking the tip of the iceberg for what I'd want to do.

From stock to ESP then I know that $10K is truly just cracking the tip of the iceberg. I probably said this same thing earlier in the thread: I know a lot of us have looked into it and we've all come to the same conclusion, to be nationally competitive in ESP take what we've already spent on our STX car and add another $15K to it plus $4K a year in tires plus $3K per year in transmissions because the PPGs are not legal in SP. We've got to source that 2.5 though for an ESP build so that adds some to the cost but keep in mind that I feel that's on top of the cost of a full STX\STU build. I'd expect to get at LEAST another 35+HP over that dyno shown with a proper header and intake manifold and Doug's tuning, even on a Mustang dyno. Why would you run E85 in a SP car? I just don't understand that one at all even if I could understand why you'd ever do it in a street car (which I don't). Race gas and water injection if needed but never E85. You're going to have to haul your fuel to events anyways why not haul good high octane fuel instead of something that is high octane but low energy like E85?

STis and EVOs because 15's won't clear the calipers. Only some barely will on the 4 pot wrx. Also, you wouldn't want to make the STi's gearing any shorter than it already is lol

275/35/15 A6's. ;) I thought of that, but the 285/30/18 seems to be a set-up that John Tak, Andy Lieber and Mark Daddio have all gone with on BSP/SM Evos. I don't see why that set-up couldn't work on a 2.5L WRX/STi...

I doubt it's even an option for an Evo or an STi to use 15s that are wide enough for the 275s with the Brembos. With stock 02-05 brakes an ESP WRX probably could fit some sort of 15x9.5 or 10s.

Too slow I guess.

Also, who feels like a ground control conversion to a set of konis is up to the task of a _fast_ ESP car? Obviously a revalve is in order, and upwards of around 500 and 600 lb/in F/R, but is it simply adjustable enough? Or am I looking at Racecomp's tarmacs at a minimum and zyzzxs as the pimpmobile suspension?

My priority list (in this order):
Suspension first, duh:
Already have- Konis and Whiteline 29 front bar, Ferodo DS2500 pads
- Solid Coilover or koni revalve/GC and adjustable plates
- Whiteline big rear bar and endlinks
- 15*9/10 (probably custom...) and 275/35/15 V710s
Then a little power as I own it already:
- Cobb catted DP
Lay down the power:
- 2 way diffs, F/R- cusco is leading the list
After the good base is there to HANDLE a ton of power, then I'll make it with an EFFICIENT TMIC. My goal will be minimal pressure drop across the core that will still cool the peak charge our tiny little turbo will make. That's really the theme of everything I will do is make the best use of the little boost that thing will make. Then if it comes to it I'll start stripping weight out of the car where I can find it. But the damn stereo stays in the car lol

edit: tuning/more boost/ launch control duh. There are a bazillion things I can do to make power and I wasn't about to list them all

The racecomps aren't going to be any better, and you'll have to pay extra for different springs. The zzyzx setup uses more or less the same parts as the GC/Koni DA setup, although the GC setup doesn't have a threaded strut body.

From stock to ESP then I know that $10K is truly just cracking the tip of the iceberg. I probably said this same thing earlier in the thread: I know a lot of us have looked into it and we've all come to the same conclusion, to be nationally competitive in ESP take what we've already spent on our STX car and add another $15K to it plus $4K a year in tires plus $3K per year in transmissions because the PPGs are not legal in SP. We've got to source that 2.5 though for an ESP build so that adds some to the cost but keep in mind that I feel that's on top of the cost of a full STX\STU build. I'd expect to get at LEAST another 35+HP over that dyno shown with a proper header and intake manifold and Doug's tuning, even on a Mustang dyno.
Building a strong ESP WRX will definitely take some serious dough. That's one reason why I may spend a season or two in STU in order to spread the cost over a couple of seasons...
I doubt it's even an option for an Evo or an STi to use 15s that are wide enough for the 275s with the Brembos. With stock 02-05 brakes an ESP WRX probably could fit some sort of 15x9.5 or 10s.

Too slow I guess.
Not too slow, but a viable option worth exploring. I've seen some 15" rally rims that clear the 4pot/2pot '06-'07 WRX brakes.

Also, who feels like a ground control conversion to a set of konis is up to the task of a _fast_ ESP car? Obviously a revalve is in order, and upwards of around 500 and 600 lb/in F/R, but is it simply adjustable enough? Or am I looking at Racecomp's tarmacs at a minimum and zyzzxs as the pimpmobile suspension?

My priority list (in this order):
Suspension first, duh:
Already have- Konis and Whiteline 29 front bar, Ferodo DS2500 pads
- Solid Coilover or koni revalve/GC and adjustable plates
- Whiteline big rear bar and endlinks
- 15*9/10 (probably custom...) and 275/35/15 V710s
Then a little power as I own it already:
- Cobb catted DP
Lay down the power:
- 2 way diffs, F/R- cusco is leading the list
After the good base is there to HANDLE a ton of power, then I'll make it with an EFFICIENT TMIC. My goal will be minimal pressure drop across the core that will still cool the peak charge our tiny little turbo will make. That's really the theme of everything I will do is make the best use of the little boost that thing will make. Then if it comes to it I'll start stripping weight out of the car where I can find it. But the damn stereo stays in the car lol

edit: tuning/more boost/ launch control duh. There are a bazillion things I can do to make power and I wasn't about to list them all
A very simple and straight-forward plan. If you and Pete do it, I'd be keen to see the final result. Setting the car up properly after all the upgrades are on the car is going to take some time as well...

One question, I know the WRX and FXT are both classed in ESP - are they on the same line? i.e. can you run a 4.44 geared FXT trans and rear diff in an ESP WRX?

Water inj only
PPG = no
FXT gears = no
FXT diff = legally yes (diffs are unlimited)
The engine and tranny must be replaced "as a unit" and update/backdate from that model only (in 09, I'll be dumping a 2.5L in an 02 body *hopfully)

My 2L tune is 218whp/208wtq on 93 and only about 17psi - done at P&L

I'm easy $10k in and I get parts on the low...

IMHO 17's = yes; 18's, eh I don't think it's worth it...tires are more expensive, more outside mass to rotate vs being closer to the center

next for me are 17x10.5's w/ 315s up front and 17x10's w/ 275s rear (currently rocking 245 A6s), then after I get a fourth job, cusco diffs front and rear...

good luck to all you guys...i was 5th of 7 at Peru and well behind the leaders. I have cusco suspension and txs power adders. I just need the 2.5L, wider wheels and tires, and diffs and I'll be at the extent of *SP rules...could be driver but don't seem to be having any issues locally or divisionally.

Also, who feels like a ground control conversion to a set of konis is up to the task of a _fast_ ESP car? Obviously a revalve is in order, and upwards of around 500 and 600 lb/in F/R, but is it simply adjustable enough? Or am I looking at Racecomp's tarmacs at a minimum and zyzzxs as the pimpmobile suspension?

My priority list (in this order):
Suspension first, duh:
Already have- Konis and Whiteline 29 front bar, Ferodo DS2500 pads
- Solid Coilover or koni revalve/GC and adjustable plates
- Whiteline big rear bar and endlinks
- 15*9/10 (probably custom...) and 275/35/15 V710s
Then a little power as I own it already:
- Cobb catted DP
Lay down the power:
- 2 way diffs, F/R- cusco is leading the list
After the good base is there to HANDLE a ton of power, then I'll make it with an EFFICIENT TMIC. My goal will be minimal pressure drop across the core that will still cool the peak charge our tiny little turbo will make. That's really the theme of everything I will do is make the best use of the little boost that thing will make. Then if it comes to it I'll start stripping weight out of the car where I can find it. But the damn stereo stays in the car lol

edit: tuning/more boost/ launch control duh. There are a bazillion things I can do to make power and I wasn't about to list them all

Just a heads up Justin. Those spring rates are WAAAAAYYYY to low for an
R-compound SP car. They'll barely get you a trophy spot in STU.:p You'd be looking at 700lb fronts and 900-1000lb rear springs to get the car to handle like you'd want it to.

Dave Mac

Also, who feels like a ground control conversion to a set of konis is up to the task of a _fast_ ESP car? Obviously a revalve is in order, and upwards of around 500 and 600 lb/in F/R, but is it simply adjustable enough? Or am I looking at Racecomp's tarmacs at a minimum and zyzzxs as the pimpmobile suspension?

I'm thinking outloud here but: I think I would do the zyzzxx's for the added tire to strut clearence. May give more options down the road.

Just a heads up Justin. Those spring rates are WAAAAAYYYY to low for an
R-compound SP car. They'll barely get you a trophy spot in STU.:p You'd be looking at 700lb fronts and 900-1000lb rear springs to get the car to handle like you'd want it to.

Dave Mac

haha thanks. It's still too early to know specifics, but I assumed with huge bars the spring rates would go down a bit. Shows how early it is I guess :lol:

I'm thinking outloud here but: I think I would do the zyzzxx's for the added tire to strut clearence. May give more options down the road.

I have never done the conversion, but I thought that a GC conversion yielded close to the same overall diameter? They both use 2.5" springs, and you cut the rest of the stock perch off, right?

I have never done the conversion, but I thought that a GC conversion yielded close to the same overall diameter? They both use 2.5" springs, and you cut the rest of the stock perch off, right?

I, not having researched the GC's, do not know if they also offset the lower machined ears that Steve uses.

Off for some reaearch!

Just a heads up Justin. Those spring rates are WAAAAAYYYY to low for an
R-compound SP car. They'll barely get you a trophy spot in STU.:p You'd be looking at 700lb fronts and 900-1000lb rear springs to get the car to handle like you'd want it to.

Dave Mac

What he said...^^^^^^


14k front and 10 K rear...for me....

Water inj only
PPG = no
FXT gears = no
FXT diff = legally yes (diffs are unlimited)
The engine and tranny must be replaced "as a unit" and update/backdate from that model only (in 09, I'll be dumping a 2.5L in an 02 body *hopfully)

My 2L tune is 218whp/208wtq on 93 and only about 17psi - done at P&L

I'm easy $10k in and I get parts on the low...

IMHO 17's = yes; 18's, eh I don't think it's worth it...tires are more expensive, more outside mass to rotate vs being closer to the center

next for me are 17x10.5's w/ 315s up front and 17x10's w/ 275s rear (currently rocking 245 A6s), then after I get a fourth job, cusco diffs front and rear...

good luck to all you guys...i was 5th of 7 at Peru and well behind the leaders. I have cusco suspension and txs power adders. I just need the 2.5L, wider wheels and tires, and diffs and I'll be at the extent of *SP rules...could be driver but don't seem to be having any issues locally or divisionally.

don't agree with the PPG's as long as its all the stock ratio's....Rules does not say OEM....just OEM ratio's...and I would think PPG's are suitable replacements.....

My Opinion...


bill

IMHO 17's = yes; 18's, eh I don't think it's worth it...tires are more expensive, more outside mass to rotate vs being closer to the center
I'm all for 17's but unfortunately, all meaty 17" A6's & V710's raise the final gearing from stock. That's why the 285/30/18 or 275/35/15 are better choices IMHO. It's a shame that no 275/30/17 or 285/30/17 meats are available...

I, not having researched the GC's, do not know if they also offset the lower machined ears that Steve uses.

Off for some reaearch!

Yeah these are what the lower ears look like. GC's don't offer that.

http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/pics/2007/20070209/pic5.jpg

http://zzyzxmotorsports.com/pics/2007/20070120/sample.jpg

don't agree with the PPG's as long as its all the stock ratio's....Rules does not say OEM....just OEM ratio's...and I would think PPG's are suitable replacements....

If that's the case that would make ESP more appealing to me.

don't agree with the PPG's as long as its all the stock ratio's....Rules does not say OEM....just OEM ratio's...and I would think PPG's are suitable replacements.....

My Opinion...


bill
Bill,

I was thinking this over last night and pulled out my '07 Solo Rule Book and did a little reading. As *SP is technically built off of the stock classes except for the upgrades specifically mentioned, any other replacements parts in SP must either conform to the update/backdate rule or to the stock class rule (i.e. similar size and weight as stock with no performance advantage).

I know PPG gears wouldn't technically give you a *performance edge* (other than having a trans that could reliably hold the extra power), but under the current solo rules, I can't see a stock class car being able to run them legally and as a result, no SP car could as well... :(

Chike

P.S. Paging kC. What's your $0.02 on this???

I've looked again and can't find any mention of transmissions or gears outside of the fact that you must update/backdate the transmission as a unit. So I just can't see how anything other than the diffs can be swapped to allow for something like the PPGs no matter how nice it would be to do that, yeah you could argue that a transmission is a wear item on a WRX (it basically is) but even if you source alternate parts the stock rules (which allow the alternate source parts) state that they must be the same hardness which would rule out the PPGs. WRX is on a line by itself in ESP so no swapping parts with the Legacy GT or the Forester.

don't agree with the PPG's as long as its all the stock ratio's....Rules does not say OEM....just OEM ratio's...and I would think PPG's are suitable replacements.....


I don't buy it...SP says nothing about transmissions so it falls back to stock's rule. Stock does just say you must have the stock diff and tranny ratios, but on the other hand, it *doesn't* explicitly say you can replace tranny parts with non-OE/non-OE equivalent parts, and if it doesn't say you can...well you know the rest. :lol:

Now, personally I think it *should* be allowed, as restricting it to OE gear ratios only removes the competitive advantage that could possibly make it a "necessary-to-win" mod, and for those with weak gears it saves competitors money, instead of costing them more, so it doesn't make the classes more expensive...rather the opposite. However, I'm not so sure it *is* technically allowed given the current rule wording.

How would someone go about having getting a change in the transmission rule in SP considered? Would you just send an e-mail to Doug Gill on the SEB?

Rule 13.0

Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered
replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets,
filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors, clutch discs,
pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain mounts, etc.) may
be used provided they are essentially identical to the standard parts
(e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight, material etc.), are
used in the same location, and provide no performance benefit.

it does say hardness....but other than that 'small' issue....:lol:...

But I will go on record to say that even 'stock' Gears have different hardnesses.....but I see no Tolerance levels....so who's to say that the PPG wouldn't fall into a given "level" if need be...;)...:lol:

seriously...its a reliability issue...

I am going thru the same thing with my PS....I don't see any allowance for anything PS/ rack related stuff....so what do I do...

and besides that....who the hell is gonna know unless you tell someone...;)..not that I would do that...I am just sayin..

Bill

I see it as the availabilty of them. Now if we were driving MG's I could see your point.

I do not see how the PPG's would be legal. Hope they are.

It also doesn't mention anything about how many gears, but I don't think I can remove 4th and 5th, to save weight.

seriously...its a reliability issue...Too bad. If a car has a known weakness, it's a weakness it must run as many would consider it something that levels the playing field. Just like the old motor mounts with the neons in how they had to replace them after 2-3 events... it's a limitation of the car.

There's nothing in the rules that state "if it's a reliability issue, you can replace X." It's not really a reliability issue, it's a LONGEVITY issue. They can be reliable for 3 runs, 6 runs, whatever... you just have to replace the stock ones more often, and it'll cost more.

And yeah, it's the 'hardness' qualification in stock that nails you, possibly. How does the SCCA define 'hardness'? ;) THAT would be something to ask Doug.

--kC

^^^ exactly^^^^Oh well...

maybe I will email Andy Hollis...:lol:....:lol:


Bill

Too bad. If a car has a known weakness, it's a weakness it must run as many would consider it something that levels the playing field. Just like the old motor mounts with the neons in how they had to replace them after 2-3 events... it's a limitation of the car.

There's nothing in the rules that state "if it's a reliability issue, you can replace X." It's not really a reliability issue, it's a LONGEVITY issue. They can be reliable for 3 runs, 6 runs, whatever... you just have to replace the stock ones more often, and it'll cost more.

And yeah, it's the 'hardness' qualification in stock that nails you, possibly. How does the SCCA define 'hardness'? ;) THAT would be something to ask Doug.
Though, they have relaxed the reliability thing and allowed stock class cars to replace clutches with "OE equivalent" instead of requiring them to use "OE." Now, if you could make the case that alternate gears are "OE equivalent" and not "performance," you might be able to get the rule passed for *SP. For instance, Richmond Gear sets for the Camaro are about 1/3rd of the price of the GM/Motive (OE) gear set, but are functionally the same, and don't weigh any less, nor are they necessarily "harder." It's just a set of 3.42 gears. Why shouldn't I be able to use them as a replacement if a bad pinion bearing munches my ring and pinion an unacceptable amount?

Karen

After doing some research, wouldn't the PPGs be not legal as they're not cut the same as stock? They're not even OE equiv. They change the tooth profile.

--kC

After doing some research, wouldn't the PPGs be not legal as they're not cut the same as stock? They're not even OE equiv. They change the tooth profile.

--kC
That's true - the PPG gears come either straight cut or helical IIRC. FWIW, at scooby meets, I've heard WRXs with both types of PPG gears and the gear whine is quite significant. I'm sure someone could strongly suspect that the stock gears aren't in the car...

Are there any other aftermarket options for gear replacements besides PPG's? RA gears are a waste of time from what I hear...

That's true - the PPG gears come either straight cut or helical IIRC. FWIW, at scooby meets, I've heard WRXs with both types of PPG gears and the gear whine is quite significant. I'm sure someone could strongly suspect that the stock gears aren't in the car...

Are there any other aftermarket options for gear replacements besides PPG's? RA gears are a waste of time from what I hear...


cryro.;)

cryro.;)
Cryo treated gears... Any idea how much they'll increase the strength of the metal? That's an interesting suggestion - and they definitely would be OE quiet and exactly the 'same' shape & design as the factory pieces.

It was said in a SOA press release that the '08 WRX 5spd has evolutionary changes. This is a pic taken of the '08 WRX tranny by a NASIOC member at the NYIAS:

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~jjl306/wrxengine3.jpg

Not sure if the autoshow car was a running prototype, but that off-white spacer/plate just behind the dipstick is something new. Some say that the weakness in the '02-'07 WRX tranny isn't in the gears, but the transmission case which flexes under stress causing the gears to move around ever so slightly. Perhaps the '08+ WRX 5 speed will be stronger??? :)

^^^^^ They need to do some QC because it appears to already be falling apart.


Note bolt on Rt. shock tower.

Note bolt on Rt. shock tower.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

After doing some research, wouldn't the PPGs be not legal as they're not cut the same as stock? They're not even OE equiv. They change the tooth profile.

--kC
I thought they had a OE replacement set.....only a harder metal....that was my understanding...if not...My bad...but I know MRT/Chalak has a set that just like stock..


and I totally agree with Karen...:)

and yes cryo....I thought of that along time ago..;)

This would be my Plan....

Start with a 06 WRX....TR....
NO wing....no sideskirts....std int...

-Extrude hone (http://www.extrudehone.com) the Exhaust manifolds, uppipe and crossover pipe...
-larger Ebay TMIC
-Tune
-SPT or K&N Intake
-fuel pump
-light weight pully's stock sized
-TBE
-Fluid Change to synthetic all around
-Front, Ctr and Rear Diffs. cryo treated gears....
-Whiteline FSB, Whiteline RSB both Adjustable
-Custom DA Koni's or K&W Variant 3's with Plates 14k front/ 10 k rear to start with....
-Bushings thruout
-steering rack bushings
-18x10 wheels
-Extended wheel studs...
-285/35/18 Hoosiers
-Race seats....
-std weight savings stuff...
-MaxQdata Data Aq...with Trackvision

race weight target 2800lbs...

I would really like to do this in a wagon...that way I can fit Sedan fenders for the extra room...:)


I think this combination would put terror into the ESP camp....and depending on who's driving it....it WOULD win..and put the pony cars another step back...:)...

Bill

Has anyone weighed the TR vs '02/'03 sedan/wagon? Is it the tranny/engine in the TR that caused the weight to go up over the '02/'03? I know the '04/'05 was heavier than the '02/'03. ;)

I'd start with an '02/'03 and then UD/BD using the '06/'07 2.5 and go from there. ;)

Who knows... if the '08 engine/tranny is better and on the same line... :lol:

--kc

*subscribed*

Only because I would try it if the ST* classes got bamboozled by the turbos-cheat fear monger crowd. I just finished replacing the last of the significant rubber bits in my car with poly last weekend... :D

edit: I don't think the TR has an advantage in weight that one couldn't better with a no-option '02/'03. :)

-Biggly

Has anyone weighed the TR vs '02/'03 sedan/wagon? Is it the tranny/engine in the TR that caused the weight to go up over the '02/'03? I know the '04/'05 was heavier than the '02/'03. ;)

I'd start with an '02/'03 and then UD/BD using the '06/'07 2.5 and go from there. ;)

Who knows... if the '08 engine/tranny is better and on the same line... :lol:

--kc
I corner-weighed my D-Stock '06 TR w/ wing and got down to roughly 3,020lbs with a 1/3 tank of gas. With lighter wheels, no wing, and lighter-than-stock struts, I could see my car dipping just below 3,000lbs. From what I've read, the '02-'03 WRX sedans are within 20lbs of this weight. So, I'm with Bill on starting with an '06 TR rather than the '02 - that way you get the 2.5L engine AND all of the STi aluminum suspension pieces (which the '07 TR doesn't get).

This would be my Plan....

Start with a 06 WRX....TR....
NO wing....no sideskirts....std int...

-Extrude hone (http://www.extrudehone.com) the Exhaust manifolds, uppipe and crossover pipe...
-larger Ebay TMIC
-Tune
-SPT or K&N Intake
-fuel pump
-light weight pully's stock sized
-TBE
-Fluid Change to synthetic all around
-Front, Ctr and Rear Diffs. cryo treated gears....
-Whiteline FSB, Whiteline RSB both Adjustable
-Custom DA Koni's or K&W Variant 3's with Plates 14k front/ 10 k rear to start with....
-Bushings thruout
-steering rack bushings
-18x10 wheels
-Extended wheel studs...
-285/35/18 Hoosiers
-Race seats....
-std weight savings stuff...
-MaxQdata Data Aq...with Trackvision

race weight target 2800lbs...

I would really like to do this in a wagon...that way I can fit Sedan fenders for the extra room...:)


I think this combination would put terror into the ESP camp....and depending on who's driving it....it WOULD win..and put the pony cars another step back...:)...

Bill
I like that plan Bill - and I agree with the 18x10" wheel choice (18x9.5" could also work) wrapped in 285/30/18 Hoosiers. Put Jonathan Roberts/Mark Daddio behind the wheel and it would clean up in ESP!!! That set-up would just be killer!!! :devil: :devil: :devil:

Given the weight of my D-stock TR, I think if it was fully prepped for *SP, a racing weight in the 2,750lbs range would not be out of the question - especially if the a/c, stereo, etc are all pulled.

Chike

I corner-weighed my D-Stock '06 TR w/ wing and got down to roughly 3,020lbs with a 1/3 tank of gas.Ok, good starting point. The curb weight of a WRX Wagon was 3165 and the sedan was 3085. The '06 TR is 3140. I'd consider that all engine and drivetrain weight. So really, the chassis itself is now negligible.

Price-wise, you can pick up a used '02/'03 for cheap ($8-$9K), and swap in the 2.5L engine/tranny ($3-$5K) and still come out under the price of a used TR, seeing as I can't find any under $20K on autotrader within 300 miles (in New England).

That's quite a bit of money freed up right there. ;)

BUT... if you all ready got one.... :devil:

--kC

Quicky calculation....your looking at $15K just to prep whatever car...

06 advantages-

-2.5L stock
-4 Pot Brakes
-different style axles
-different gear ratio (62MPH in 2nd)taller, especially with the tires...so no shifting
-straight up 3.90 ratio...no stepup in the tranny from 3.65
-Sparse interior already
-no wing option

disadvantage
-small weight increase
-PIGNOSE...;)

I would also do Brake lines, Pads and fluid...that I forgot on my original list...:)

We get waaaay more than 62 in second. :p Try 68ish.

I weighed my car at about 3080ish with the heavier street wheels and tires on the car. That was before the ARP wheel studs which probably added about 40 pounds :lol: That was with over half a tank of gas.

I corner-weighed my D-Stock '06 TR w/ wing and got down to roughly 3,020lbs with a 1/3 tank of gas. With lighter wheels, no wing, and lighter-than-stock struts, I could see my car dipping just below 3,000lbs. From what I've read, the '02-'03 WRX sedans are within 20lbs of this weight. So, I'm with Bill on starting with an '06 TR rather than the '02 - that way you get the 2.5L engine AND all of the STi aluminum suspension pieces (which the '07 TR doesn't get).

I'm trying to remember Hoppe's nationals weight in 04...I think it was just a few hamburgers over 2900lbs. That's with heavy wheels too. I'm still not sure that the TR is actually lighter; I wonder what he was down to in DS?
I know that I have weighed the aluminum control arms next to the steel ones and they were within 1lb. (The bigger difference is the bushings in the two; but no big deal, easily fixed in ESP.) Plus aren't the suspension bits update/backdate allowable like the control arms and brakes? Just mix/match. :)

-Biggly

We get waaaay more than 62 in second. :p Try 68ish.

I weighed my car at about 3080ish with the heavier street wheels and tires on the car. That was before the ARP wheel studs which probably added about 40 pounds :lol: That was with over half a tank of gas.


Even better.......:)

We get waaaay more than 62 in second. :p Try 68ish.



Oh yeah, I was going to comment on this; no gearing advantage with the newer 'tall' gears in my opinion; just up the redline a few hundred RPM and it won't be an issue I don't think. :)

-Biggly already gets much quicker than 62 in 2nd

I'm trying to remember Hoppe's nationals weight in 04...I think it was just a few hamburgers over 2900lbs. That's with heavy wheels too. I'm still not sure that the TR is actually lighter; I wonder what he was down to in DS?
I know that I have weighed the aluminum control arms next to the steel ones and they were within 1lb. (The bigger difference is the bushings in the two; but no big deal, easily fixed in ESP.) Plus aren't the suspension bits update/backdate allowable like the control arms and brakes? Just mix/match. :)

-Biggly


Yes.......:)

Ok, good starting point. The curb weight of a WRX Wagon was 3165 and the sedan was 3085. The '06 TR is 3140. I'd consider that all engine and drivetrain weight. So really, the chassis itself is now negligible.

Price-wise, you can pick up a used '02/'03 for cheap ($8-$9K), and swap in the 2.5L engine/tranny ($3-$5K) and still come out under the price of a used TR, seeing as I can't find any under $20K on autotrader within 300 miles (in New England).

That's quite a bit of money freed up right there. ;)

BUT... if you all ready got one.... :devil:

--kC
Exactly - with a zero option TR, the only difference in weight will be engine/drivetrain related. This could very well be the road I'll head down in 2-3 years when my car is paid off (I owe just under 14K on it now due to 7K down at signing).
06 advantages-

-2.5L stock
-4 Pot Brakes
-different style axles
-different gear ratio (62MPH in 2nd)taller, especially with the tires...so no shifting
-straight up 3.90 ratio...no stepup in the tranny from 3.65
-Sparse interior already
-no wing option
One thing - the '06 actually have a straight up 3.70 final drive. As a result of that on our stock 215/45/17 tires, 2nd is good to ~67mph.

Chike

I'm trying to remember Hoppe's nationals weight in 04...I think it was just a few hamburgers over 2900lbs. That's with heavy wheels too. I'm still not sure that the TR is actually lighter; I wonder what he was down to in DS?
So that was Hoppe's nationals weight with his car in STX trim?

So that was Hoppe's nationals weight with his car in STX trim?


http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7578303&postcount=10

My car with 225/45/17 Azenis and stock seats - 2959lbs
My car with 245/35/17 FKs with 3lb each heavier wheels and kirkey (15lb loss) pass seat - 2924lbs

I was around 2980 in the wagon... stock seats and a whole bunch of other stuff that could have been done.

--kC