Well, looks like i spun a bearing on the ol' EJ20K. I'm thinking of just replacing the whole shortblock rather than pulling mine apart and replacing the crank shaft, rods, bearings, etc. What could I put in without tuning other than an EJ20K shortblock? Could I do an EJ207?

ej18 ftw !!

ej18 ftw !!

inflating your post count are you?

are you?

yes you can use one. (207)

make sure its a good one though. you can never really trust anything unless you built it or owned it since new....
there are slight CR changes, not too big a deal

The K has an 8:1 CR; what do the 7's have?

hmm if it were me i might call jhot and ask what is in route buy a ej20k sell the tranny / heads/ blown block
and rebuild it, the part numbers for the gaskets are in pre 2002

i paid 1500 for mine matt paid alot less

or buy a power fc bigger injectors and a ej255/257 block

mmmmm, power fc....

Cobb is just down the road, so I could rebuild it with their crank/rods/bearings, but unless I can get a deal that's going to be a lot more expensive than picking up a used but good condition JDM short block.

EJ20k is 8:1 CR

EJ207 is 8:1 CR

EJ20G is 8.5:1 CR

EJ205 JDM block 9:1

cheers

garrett

i was gonna say 257 but someone else did first.

sorry to hear about your bad luck.

keep us posted as far as details!

--keith

post a request for the rest of the rebuild numbers in par number thread it would be good to have in the open anyway

yeah 257 shortblock would be sweet, but I don't have money in the budget to retune (don't really have lots of money for the block as it is anyway)

Not sure how much he wants but hndatch627 has a good 20G bottom end sitting in his garage. Might be $$$ to ship though.

what is the CC of my heads?

EJ20k is 8:1 CR

EJ207 is 8:1 CR

EJ20G is 8.5:1 or 8.0:1 CR

EJ205 JDM block 9:1

cheers

garrett


fixed

fixed


Which is really irrelevant since the head volume changed with each engine. CR is a combination of block AND heads.

If it were my engine, I would tear it apart and check the condition of the crank before I made any purchases or decisions. If the crank is fine, bearings and gaskets can be replaced along with the proper machine shop work and you can be back on the road for $500 or so.

If you are shopping for a "good used" block, I've got a '95 Ej20H block. PM me and we can chat. They are basically the same as an Ej20G block, but with less piston dish...

i posted the head volume of my K heads a while ago, dunno if its the same for you. gotta be close. 45cc, just checked

EJ20G and EJ20K heads have a cc of about 46, later EJ205 and EJ207 heads have about 49 cc. If you use EJ205 or EJ207 short block with Ej20G or Ej20K heads you need the thicker 11044AA355 head gaskets to compensate the 3 cc difference.

Wouldn't you want to use the thicker HG regardless to keep the timing correct? I know it's probably less than a degree change with a different HG, but it's still "off"...

I saw another thread that said the EJ20K had 47cc heads. Stephen at IAPerformance said the CR with a 207 shortblock would be 8.9:1. He said he could make custom gaskets thick enough to bring the CR back down to 8.0:1 for $185. But he doesn't have a shortblock :(

he must be thinking with 207 gaskets, cause the calcs i did put it at aprox 8:1 i think.

how do you do that calculation?

i derived it so that the volume of the bottom dead center volume was 8 times larger than the volume of the top dead center volume (my varialble was the head gasket thickness to get an 8:1 CR)


it actually came out a bit lower than 8:1 with gaskets i could get, which i was very ok with.


ninja edit: lol, just found this CR calculator. went back, got my old measurements, converted to inches, plugged em in:

with a 45 cc head, its 8:1, while 47cc is 7.8:1
so whoever told you 8.9 is quite frankly, an idiot. :lol: even with .5mm head gaskets (.02") its at 8.6

note: all calcs done with version 7 numbers, version 8 pistons are different, and theres rumors of changed head volume between V7 and 8, so there may be discrepancies between these and version 8+ blocks

i also cross-checked the version 4 measurements i took back then, came out to 8:1, so these are correct.:devil:

Told ya 8:1 ;)

i just dont understand why and how people come up with these rediculous numbers, or why they wouldnt go with the thicker gaskets. id take a bit less compression any day for saftey and later power benefits :devil:

You will want to choose your gasket thickness not only for a certain compression ratio, but also to achieve a certain squish. As a rule of thumb I stick to 1.2mm clearance between piston and head in TDC. Go lower and you will have more detonation at high boost, go more and you will do worse at lower rpm and emission at idle.

BTW, I use an extensive Excel spreadsheat to calculate CR, taking block height, crank stroke, rod length, piston compression height, piston dish/dome cc, piston bore, head cc, gasket bore and gasket thickness into account.

welp, im happy to hear that, i took much less time and by chance have all the benefits of your good numbers :)

note: all calcs done with version 7 numbers, version 8 pistons are different, and theres rumors of changed head volume between V7 and 8, so there may be discrepancies between these and version 8+ blocks




There's the rub--how different is the ver 8 short block?

I did a search for 11044AA355 and it looks like it's a 1.37mm gasket. Is that out of the box or squished? What p/n and thickness are the 207 gasket?

(ps when you do a search for that p/n, Marnix, you're name comes up a lot!)

EJ205 and EJ207 head gasket is 11044AA483 (was 482) which are 0.8 mm thick.

So the thicker head gasket is the stock EJ20K gasket (according to the EJ20K/G part number thread)--can I just reuse the ones I have?

new is always better

not for $27

Even for 27 bucks a piece new is better.

:lol:

Seriously, you're not considering re-using your head gaskets, are you?

yeah thats what i meant don't reuse when they are only $27

Having some trouble pulling the engine (I've only done engine+tranny pulls before). I have the block up where the motor mount bolts are free from the cross member and there's about a 1/4" gap between the top of the block and the tranny--but it's not moving. Any tips on getting the block to come forward?

sounds like its binding. those studs at the bottom need to be straight in the holes (as well as thranny input shaft).

you may need the front of the engine to come up.

ps, did you take the clutch fork out?

clutch fork is as out as it will come.

Front of the engine needs to come up, not front of the tranny?

yeah you need to jack up the transmission so the motor mount bolts will clear the crossmember

I have the block up where the motor mount bolts are free from the cross member ...

yeah you need to jack up the transmission so the motor mount bolts will clear the crossmember

i would assume that its just jammed then, try to take a look at the studs at the bottom to see if theyre jammed.

try rocking it a bit too

Got it out, took off the oil pan, and took a peek inside. Everything looks fine except there is play between the crank and the #4 connecting rod, as expected. So does that narrow it down 100% to spun bearing? If so, what are possible causes of spun bearings--is it definitely oil related or is there another possible cause?

Oil starvation. But why?

why do I want to know what happened to my engine? Well, that influences the path I take to fix it and prevent it in the future.

Oil starvation. But why?

and why so many inside 2 weeks?
you running 5-30 or 10-30 has it been really cold?

Got it out, took off the oil pan, and took a peek inside. Everything looks fine except there is play between the crank and the #4 connecting rod, as expected. So does that narrow it down 100% to spun bearing? If so, what are possible causes of spun bearings--is it definitely oil related or is there another possible cause?
Which way is the play?
Up and down play on a rod is bad, front to back play could just be rod side clearance which is OK.

you guys realize this motor came with a RWD tranny.... ie it was used and probably heavily abused as a drift car.

its time was up. Ks love to shed bearings. **** happens.

just get a new oil pump and have the block hot tanked if you are worried

hot tanked? is that like hot boxed?

5w-30 mobil 1. play is up-down, but not side to side or back in time.

its how a shop cleans a block

So if the K's love to shed bearings (proven in the last month or so) is it worth a rebuild?

is there a good guide for breaking down the motor? I thought it would be straightforward but looking at it I don't really know where to begin.

i would suspect that the 96/97 legacy 2.5 would be close

but i have only taken one apart .. never back together

RTFM and improvise on the rest.
http://carfiche.com/manuals021/cars/

L.I.B. The K is an open block. Who knew? And look at those deep dishes.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a96/Lachlanus/Block011.jpg

weve been over this long ago.

its good that ur getting into though

I guess this is just a thread of self-discovery then

http://techinfo.subaru.com/html/index.jsp

^^^ All the manuals you need are right there. The Subaru block is really pretty easy to take apart. A few of the bolts are hidden down in the bottom of the cooling passages but it's covered well in the manual.

<edit>Those pictures came up while I was typing. If all the pistons and bores look fine why don't you have the crank refinished, rods inspected, and put in new bearings and seals. The total bill should be well under $1000 and you'd know what was in there and exactly how good the overall motor is.

--Kevin H.

well that's certainly an option, but if the K fundamentally has a poor design, is it worth the rebuild?

Or I could get an EJ205 and put in forged rods and pistons...

well that's certainly an option, but if the K fundamentally has a poor design, is it worth the rebuild?

Or I could get an EJ205 and put in forged rods and pistons...
Not to hijack but I keep hearing rumors of a design flaw in the main bearing area of the EJ20K and Phase I DOHC EJ25...I have a bunch of mechanics coming through the machine shop, they usually flap their gums about someone they know that has a fix for the main bearing problem....WTF is the fix/preventative measure????:confused:

Don't know, but main bearings don't seem to be the problem. All the K's spinning bearings are spinning rod bearings.

i remember a guy spun one over a year ago, and he rebuilt and i havent heard anything since.

i assume it runs and has been.
the oem bearing material just may be bad on 97-98 engines.
i honestly think rebuilding it is a good option for now. you can use it as more time to get a good bottom end started while you have a running car if youre worried after that.

theres this treatment called WPC, its like mini shot peening, good stuff. im going to have bearings done when i get my next block

is it worthwhile to convert to phase II style? and create essentially a 207 from our old block?

im thinking about bang for the buck right now, and debating between 207/257 and a rebuild. if its an easy machining job, im for it. otherwise, i'll drop in a new SB.

--keith

is it worthwhile to convert to phase II style? and create essentially a 207 from our old block?

im thinking about bang for the buck right now, and debating between 207/257 and a rebuild. if its an easy machining job, im for it. otherwise, i'll drop in a new SB.

--keith

tis what i decided to do over a year ago. (new style SB)

and you can have them machine a new area for new style thrust. the 2.2 closed deck blocks for one of the companies that does shortblocks is converted to PhaseII style.

I am hearing the same kind of things... the mains are OK, it's the rod bearings that are failing due to poor oiling at certain RPMs. I have elected to go with OEM bearings and a juiced up new oil pump.
Of course I have no desires for 400hp, so if you want the big powa, a rebuild may not be the best plan.
I was surprised by how 'open' the open deck is I thought there would have been some bracing on the top and bottom.

what oil pump did you get?

what oil pump did you get?

Sorry, I don't know that. My mechanic is ordering it from the same place he is getting the wiseco pistons. Maybe it's wiseco, but could be a reseller. Pump is shimed for more pressure and touched up for more flow. $225 US. I dithered a bit over it, but all this K failure talk lately...

^^^^sounds like the cosworth one

Why is a high pressure pump better?
It seems to me that if bearing oil clearances are setup properly, and measured properly, pressure wouldn't be an issue especially with a thinner oil. I could see some cooling benefits from volume but that could also be a benefit from running looser rod side clearances.
:confused:

its not. you want more flow. if youre running out of oil, you need more. ie more volume = more flow

The oil pump stuff just reminds me of the old school hot rodders and their Melling high volume pumps on BBCs & SBCs. They'd take a short block with big nasty bearing oil clearance, freshen it up with a high volume pump and run big oil (20w-50). The result was usually a couple good races and then a cam, distributor gear or rod/main bearing failure. The higher pressure & volume would side load the cam/distributor gear, then one of these would give or worse yet the fact that most of these guys ran stock capacity oil pans and the hi po oil pump would suck the oil up faster than it could drain down.
My question is are the Phase I rod bearings running out of oil?

I got a version 8 shortblock, should be coming shortly. What are things I need to get to put it back together? I know I need 12 new cylinder head bolts, what else? do I need new gaskets for the oil/water pumps?

subarugenuineparts gave me a price of $1.12 per head bolt--does that sound right?

You can re-use the head bolts, they don't stretch (since they're going into aluminum alloy).

ah the eternal debate

heres the deal:
seems like you want to go the cheapest route, so:

cheap: reuse. its been done over and over again by many many people.

not cheap: ARP. its been done over and over again by many many people.

kinda like this thread

I reuse 1x per set, then I toss them...

I stripped four of them, so I have to replace at least that many. Is it ok to mix old and new, or would that put uneven pressure on the heads?

PS are they studs or bolts?

IMO, just get some ARP studs and call it a day. Its a once time expense and you know you won't have any issues down the line. I would be consirned with the "new" ones to have more "grip" or something over the old ones. But really I am not a mechanic, just someone whom can afford to hire someone to make these decisions for me.

not for $27

is that $27 for the pair or just for one?

each i believe look in the parts thread

ARP studs run about $200 a set. So cost wise, you are about there already, the extra $100 gets an upgrade that you can rely on.

how does one clean out the oil pan of the copper shards? Take a hose to it?

how does one clean out the oil pan of the copper shards? Take a hose to it?

Kerosene or something like that. Your best bet is to find someone with a parts washer. You need to make sure any parts that you reuse are clean enough to eat from. I really dont like reusing ANY parts from an engine that spit a rod bearing. You need to completely disassemble your heads and brush and clean every passage, blow them out and repeat. You need to remove your buckets and clean the bucket bores with crocus cloth. This will remove all the metal fillings that were hammered into the soft aluminum. The tolerances there are tight and they need to be 100% clean. Same deal with the cam journals.

OK- time to revive an old thread.

I'm putting a closed-deck 20G block between my version 6 STi RA 207 heads. If i use the 20G headgaskets (11044AA463), does anybody know what my compression ratio would be (approximately)? I'm trying to find out if i would be safe running the stock boost levels until i can get a PFC and tune it.

Thanks

also, will i be safe to say that my pistons and valves won't meet at 8200 rpm w/ the 20G block/rotating assy, and 207 heads (with 20G HG)? Or should i get a thicker HG if possible?

yes, you need to use the HG for the block, not the heads. the G pistons pass the top of the deck