well we at GrimmSpeed listened to your concerns and decided to get the ball rolling on these bad boys. a first of its kind for the subaru crowd...TRUE phenolic tgv/head spacers. these arent those tonka toy plastic ones you see made by other companies...these are the real deal.

for those of you that dont know what these bad boys are....what they are used for is to lift the intake mani/tgv's off the super hot engine so the heat of the engine doesnt transfer straight to the inlet air(which you want to keep as cool as possible). real phenolic lessens the amount of heat transfer between the two. never before have these been offered....but the time as come.

we just got the protoypes in today so the testing will start tonight. its a rather simple product so i dont expect any issues.

enjoy!!!

Justin
www.grimmspeed.com (http://www.grimmspeed.com)

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/IMG_2893small.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/IMG_2891small.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/IMG_2895small.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/IMG_2894small.jpg

Very nice Justin. I'd be willing to test a set :).

Any expected date for these to be out? expected price range?

Any expected date for these to be out? expected price range?

i'd like to run them for a bit on the test car then if all is well the manufacturer has a quick turnaround time so i'd say soon.

my motor goes together this weekend

how fast can you get me a set :)

Can you PM some sneak-preview pricing?? :)

I was thinking about going with some "fake plastic ones", but will definitely be holding out now...

Can you PM some sneak-preview pricing?? :)

I was thinking about going with some "fake plastic ones", but will definitely be holding out now...

pm'd you. also reworded my intial post. lol

pm'd you. also reworded my intial post. lol

Hilarious! :) PM'd you back.

any chance these will be available within two weeks as my intake mani goes back on then.

any chance these will be available within two weeks as my intake mani goes back on then.

may be pushing it.

Yummy. Me likey. :)

looking forward to the results

If they're anything like the results some of the VW guys see, it'll be pretty significant...

pretty nice write up i found.







Why it Works



While many avenues exist for boosting the power output of an engine, most approaches focus on ways to increase the volumetric efficiency of the system. Ported heads, larger diameter exhausts, headers, and bigger throttle bodies serve to decrease the resistance to airflow through the engine. The modification shown here, however, does not increase the volume of air flowing through an engine, but rather increases its mass flow.

Cold air is more dense than hot air and takes up less space. So if your engine can ingest cooler air, more air can be mixed with more fuel, which gives more power. An additional benefit is that cooler air has a higher resistance to knock, allowing more ignition timing advance - or boost in supercharged applications. Either way, they both equal more power! This is the theory behind cold air intakes, ice on the manifold, and intercoolers.

The intake air in EFI engines is drawn through the airflow meter and throttle body, and then into an alloy intake manifold. During its residence in the intake manifold casting, the air charge picks up unwanted heat from the manifold, increasing its volume and lowering the resistance of the engine to knock.

One of the possibilities for reducing the intake air temperature is to install a cold air intake. However, another possibility is to reduce the heat conduction from the hot engine to the intake manifold by thermally separating the two. By replacing the steel intake manifold gaskets with an insulating spacer, heat conduction to the manifold can be greatly reduced. The best material for the spacers has a low thermal conductivity, high compressive strength, is able to withstand up to 300 degrees F (~150 degrees C), and is affordable. Phenolics, with excellent insulating properties, high stiffness, and the ability to withstand 500+ degrees F (260 degrees C), are commonly chosen for similar applications. Additionally, the coefficient of thermal expansion of a phenolic is similar to that of aluminium, which helps to reduce sealing problems in this particular use.

When compared to the 0.025 inch steel gasket it replaces, a quarter inch thick phenolic insulator will conduct 200-1000 times less heat! Although the insulation benefits increase with thickness, ¼ inch (6.4mm) sheet was chosen because this is the thickest that can generally be used with stock mounting studs and bolts.



Manifold Temperature Data

The basic function of the insulators is to reduce intake manifold temperatures, so what better way to test than to record and compare temp data before and after the install? I took the temperature readings from the front centre intake runner using a professional quality CPS T200 temperature sensor with a time constant of the order of 5 seconds. The sensor was mounted on the front middle intake runner for all tests and the vehicle was driven as close to 60 mph (~100 km/h) as traffic would allow. After the driving test, the engine was allowed to idle for a sufficient time to show the maximum temperature.

The data is shown as a temperature change above ambient. As you can see, the temperature of the intake manifold reached a steady state of approximately 30 degrees F (17 degrees C) lower - 40 degrees F versus 70 degrees F - with the insulators than without during 60 mph cruising. During the idle test (the higher temps at the right end of the graph), the non-insulated engine was 52 degrees F (29 degrees C) hotter and still climbing when the test was aborted. A non-quantitative comment: I can place my hand on the intake after a drive with the insulators installed, whereas I would have burned myself previously!

….

Summary



Having seen many people shell out hundreds of dollars for performance mods of dubious value, I wanted as much data as possible to show that this intake manifold insulator thing really worked. I was able to show that:

The intake ran 30 degrees F (17 degrees C) cooler at cruise and at least 50 degrees F (28 degrees C) cooler at idle;
According to my dyno plots, I gained up to 7 horsepower and 11 ft-lbs of torque over the major portion of the power curve.
My best time at the track was ~0.1 seconds quicker and ~1 mph faster

Gonna run any specials on PnP of the intake manifold + phenolic spacers? :devil:

any chance these will be available within two weeks as my intake mani goes back on then.

Very nice Justin. I'd be willing to test a set :).


i'm going to be handing out a few sets for free for those of you willing to do some testing and some writes ups and what not. i should be ordering them this week and we will have them in 2 weeks. i'd be more than happy to hook both of you up with them.

Just curious, but how much are they going to be...PM me:)
-Joe

Just curious, but how much are they going to be...PM me:)
-Joe

haha...you dont know how many times i've been asked this the last two days. we dont have a price point yet but i'd like to stick around the price of the hondata ones that are plastic.

SAWEET! PM me the price, PLEASE!!!

I just wish it was possible to put these on without removing the manifold. oh well.

I just wish it was possible to put these on without removing the manifold. oh well.

actually i think it is possible. i know people have put the other spacers in without completely taking the mani off, instead just took off the mani bolts and popped up the intake a few inches and slid them in. i havent personally done it...maybe someone that has will chime in.

Any issues with height clearances yet?

Any specials with these spacers + chrome plated blingy TGVs?

I have been debating the hondata spacers for years.... I would like for you to confirm that these are spacers and that you will need a gasket on each side of these.

I also would love a set to tinker with....

Any issues with height clearances yet?

you are referring to the bolts? if you go any bigger than the 1/8 you may need longer bolts.

Any specials with these spacers + chrome plated blingy TGVs?

you really want that dont you. maybe when i'm bored sometime i'll spray some up in chrome for ya.

I have been debating the hondata spacers for years.... I would like for you to confirm that these are spacers and that you will need a gasket on each side of these.

I also would love a set to tinker with....

personally i'm trying to figure that out right now but i think its been proven on here that it is the best idea to have the oem gasket on at leaset one of the sides. also could atv gasket maker might be smart too.

Really nice quality looking spacers Justin. Unless you say otherwise I suggest against using the stock metal gaskets with any spacers. With the Hondatas I was suffering a serious vaccum leak on the passenger side head. Poor idle, CEL, and forced me to do the install twice.

Really nice quality looking spacers Justin. Unless you say otherwise I suggest against using the stock metal gaskets with any spacers. With the Hondatas I was suffering a serious vaccum leak on the passenger side head. Poor idle, CEL, and forced me to do the install twice.


ok thanks for the input. i was hoping some guys would speak out about past experiences. so you ran perfectly fine with no gaskets at all? did you put gasket sealant on it?

Oh, oh! Me too! Me too! PM me a price!!! :p

j/k... I can wait :D *subscribed*

FYI ~ based on some reading, I've found that TRUE phenolic spacers (not "fake plastic" ones ;)) have been good for up to 25% heat reduction on VW/Audi engines. It's pretty obvious that Suby drivers are sporting significantly different motors; however, I wouldn't be surprised to see similar results...

Another interesting thing I noticed while reading up on these is that some guys running similar plastic pieces actually experienced melting, which resulted in some "not-so-good" performance... Not to say that this will happen with ALL plastic spacers, just kind of scary to think that it could happen!

FYI ~ based on some reading, I've found that TRUE phenolic spacers (not "fake plastic" ones ;)) have been good for up to 25% heat reduction on VW/Audi engines. It's pretty obvious that Suby drivers are sporting significantly different motors; however, I wouldn't be surprised to see similar results...

Another interesting thing I noticed while reading up on these is that some guys running similar plastic pieces actually experienced melting, which resulted in some "not-so-good" performance... Not to say that this will happen with ALL plastic spacers, just kind of scary to think that it could happen!

yeah they must have used the wrong material in whatever those spacers were. i just got back from testing the max temp the heads get and the highest i could get with a thermocoupler on an 02 wrx was ~190*F. Max operating temp for these phenolic spacers are 265 so we are well within the range.

i'm going to be handing out a few sets for free for those of you willing to do some testing and some writes ups and what not. i should be ordering them this week and we will have them in 2 weeks. i'd be more than happy to hook both of you up with them.

PM Sent

ok thanks for the input. i was hoping some guys would speak out about past experiences. so you ran perfectly fine with no gaskets at all? did you put gasket sealant on it?

I used RTV Red hi-temp gasket sealant on top of and on bottom of the hondatas. Also be sure to take a flat edge razor and scrape off the left over paper gasket residue that will be seated on both heads. PM sent Justin.

Justin. Heres my post to remind you about test fitting when the time comes.

.......

I don't want some rattle can Tenessee Chrome, we are talking the real-deal-Holyfield chrome plated here. :)

a couple pics. one showing it on the car...they are the same layout as the gasket so it will match up perfectly. another showing that there are enough threads left to tighten it down nicely.

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/product_images/spacer004small.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/images/product_images/spacer003small.jpg

Looks really nice - I already ordered my RTV Red Hi-Temp Gasket Sealant that B16A2NR recommended above. I'm definitely looking forward to getting a set! :)

looking good.

does anyone have a pic out the outlets of a jdm tgvless intake manifold?

might be a dumb question but do these replace the gaskets then?

It'll replace the gaskets, but you'll still want to use some sort of gasket sealant or "instant gasket", such as the RTV Red gasket sealant that B16A2NR mentioned above.

It'll replace the gaskets, but you'll still want to use some sort of gasket sealant or "instant gasket", such as the RTV Red gasket sealant that B16A2NR mentioned above.

my initial response would be that this will more than likely be the best option. i know in the past sometimes certain people have better luck with no gaskets and some people have better luck with gaskets. We will really start to know for sure once we get the testing sets out to all the guys.

Justin

........

I am definitely interested in a set. I tried Cometic's but they were coming apart and Cometic decided to no longer make them due to the problems they were having with them.

Let me know when they are availible. I have tons of datalogging equipment so I can give accurate before and after results. Let me know if you need someone else to help you do testing on them.

-Matt

I have a JDM Ver.7 RA motor with the hollow TGV/less inlets. They match up with any factory intake gasket, either JDM or USDM engines. It looks like your gasket will fit just fine.
May I ask why the need to add sealant ? I wouldn't and won't. The gasket should have some compressability within it so sealant should not be needed. Both mating surfaces on the head and lower inlet are very smooth. I currently have the hondata's without sealant and do not have a boost leak as tested with a intercooler hose pressure gauge. The factory paper gaskets do not include sealant either.

As mentioned earlier let me know when I can buy a set.

TR

yeah, i'm guessing different people will try different things. the first way i'm going to personally test them is with nothing like you stated. then i'll go from there.

I am definitely interested in a set. I tried Cometic's but they were coming apart and Cometic decided to no longer make them due to the problems they were having with them.

Let me know when they are availible. I have tons of datalogging equipment so I can give accurate before and after results. Let me know if you need someone else to help you do testing on them.

-Matt

pm'd you

Replied. Thanks!!

I'm definitely interested in seeing some #s from the data logs... These pieces will definitely make a difference in the intake temps, but it'll be interesting to see how much those temps can affect other areas. I'm sure we'll be pleasantly surprised.

My hondatas required no RTV, they sealed right the first time.

Then again when I had to remove the manifold, they looked good after 30,000 miles and were reused.

I'm interested in the tests of these as well

PM'd you about the spacers, but also interested in your hood struts!

i want dibs on this too, and some TGV deletes.

i want dibs on this too, and some TGV deletes.

Get in line, buddy... I've got dibs on TGV deletes and hope some will be available to ship with my Phenolic Spacers, PnP Intake Manifold, PnP Exhaust Manifolds along with the Hi-Flow Crossover Pipe (all coated, of course).

Man that just made me realize how broke Justin's going to make me... Anyone looking for a spare kidney!?

damn, how long is this line getting

and for the PnP Intake mani as well, shoot, for the price I can't not get it, esp. if i'm going in and puttin in the tgv deletes

wish i could take mine off and send them in. hmmm, what kind of a turn around time would i be looking at if i sent mine in??

PM Justin, he may be able to turn it around pretty quick... Don't quote me on it, but I believe getting their hands on cores is where the problem lies.

damn, how long is this line getting

and for the PnP Intake mani as well, shoot, for the price I can't not get it, esp. if i'm going in and puttin in the tgv deletes

wish i could take mine off and send them in. hmmm, what kind of a turn around time would i be looking at if i sent mine in??

we could do a rush order if you needed them back asap. the fastest we could probably do it would be 2-3 days because we have so many orders in line right now.

Justin
www.grimmspeed.com (http://www.grimmspeed.com)

any date as to when these will be availible yet? and price?

any date as to when these will be availible yet? and price?


i should have the first batch early next week and then i'll be sending them out to a select group of testers. when they report back on their findings then we are good to get crazy.

Bump for those lucky testers. ;)

.....

Bump for those lucky testers. ;)


yes...free parts ftw!

wish you would of had these before i got my hondata ones since these are nicer.

ok, two day delay. testing pieces will be here thursday...confirmed with tracking number. w00t

Sweet deal! :)

PM'd you.

looks niceeeee!

thanks for the compliments guys!

Man, I sure could use a set of these...

Man, I sure could use a set of these...

I walked up to a hot chick at the mall with a nice rack, grabbed them and said the same thing... and all that landed me was a slap across the face and her yelling about how I needed to get in line and pay like everyone else...

I think that it may work the same here. :devil:

Man, I sure could use a set of these...

I walked up to a hot chick at the mall with a nice rack, grabbed them and said the same thing... and all that landed me was a slap across the face and her yelling about how I needed to get in line and pay like everyone else...

I think that it may work the same here. :devil:



hahah...fighting over them already, i can handle that.(ps- you both are actually getting them at the same time since you are testers)


GOOD NEWS!!!

they came in tonight and boy do they look HOTT. so you testers be expecting an email/pm from me tomorrow with more details. I'd like to get a few of these bad boys on the test cars asap so we can get some results back and then we can get them to all of you.

Justin
www.grimmspeed.com (http://www.grimmspeed.com)

t-shirt pics!!

t-shirt pics!!

haha ok..let me find a couple and i'll sneak them into this thread too...


EDIT: they are to big and i dont have photoshop on this comp...go to our website www.grimmspeed.com and there is a pic on the front page

I saw them I want to order, PM'ed u!

shots from our first shipment yesterday...

thanks to evan for the pics...


ps-thats not our coating..just some crinkle black from a can.

http://www.grimmspeed.com/misc%20pics/IMG_0789.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/misc%20pics/IMG_0790.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/misc%20pics/IMG_0791.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/misc%20pics/IMG_0792.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/misc%20pics/IMG_0793.jpg

http://www.grimmspeed.com/misc%20pics/IMG_0794.jpg

PM Sent

you guys think this will require a gasket on either side?

Read page 1 posts. RTV Gasket maker not the OEM.

Man, I'm so psyched to get mine (along with all of the other stuff I'm having done!) - they look great!

you guys think this will require a gasket on either side?

Read page 1 posts. RTV Gasket maker not the OEM.

honestly guys...this is something i'd like to find out when i ship all the testing pieces to you guys. i want some to try with no gaskets and rtv and some to try with oem gaskets.

well i can tell you that the competition that sells these (not to bash justin bc i love his products) recommends oem gaskets and his kit comes with them. So i also am waiting on the testers for the scientific evidence so i can order from justin.

http://www.grimmspeed.com/misc%20pics/IMG_0792.jpg

yeah, exactly what i want, all of it

waiting patiently for the results of testing

honestly guys...this is something i'd like to find out when i ship all the testing pieces to you guys. i want some to try with no gaskets and rtv and some to try with oem gaskets.

I already picked up some RTV, so I can definitely be in the "Both" group...

Wow, that combo with the coated intake manifold, coated tgv deletes and phenolic gaskets looks aweseome!

where can i sign up???? :banana:

Wow, that combo with the coated intake manifold, coated tgv deletes and phenolic gaskets looks aweseome!

where can i sign up???? :banana:

Once you start, you can't stop - these guys have great prices! I got all of the above and then some...

Dern it...I have Hondata gaskets and an install coming up in a few months. They have a good rep of being effective versus the other version out there (I bought both to compare...pics posted a few months ago) but I suspect these will be more and now I need to order them.

Thanks for bringing these to market...it will save people from buying three sets like me :)

I received my test set in the mail today and these things look DAMN nice. I can't wait to get them installed to see what kind of difference they make!

I'm guessing we should see some good results. :)

How can I get my hands on a set of these? Are they available yet?

pricing?

I don't think you guys are the first manufacturer of the phenolic spacers ...

http://www.kstech.biz/servlet/the-Real-Phenolic-Thermal-Intake-Spacers/Categories

In fact, you can order these right now. Also, with the ones above you can also get an 8mm variant to use with FMIC setups and REALLY insulate the intake manifold.

t

just got my set in the mail today. they look awesome Justin. they're more than i actually expected to see. i can definately see RTV being a good idea between the spacer and the IM....although personally, i'm going to roughen up the surface a bit to give the RTV something to stick to (smooth and shiny plastic surfaces are rarely great for pressure-resisitant seals)

motors coming out tomorrow, new cometic HG's should be here monday or tuesday, and hopefull reassembled this week. i'll post my full write-up/review then.

Too bad you can't insulate the bolts as well.

why?


the bolts wont transfer enough heat to make a difference any way you look at it.

Yeah, nothing even worth mentioning will come through those bolts... Not even enough to heat up the surrounding metal, let alone any runners that air passes through.

I saw several people mentioning that they did not use a gasket with their hondata spacers and effectively making a seal. This is because the hondata's are a gasket, not a phenolic spacer. I will wait to see what the test results show, but I personally think that running an OEM gasket on either side of the spacer is the way to go, and I believe the OEM TGV gaskets are extremely thin so it shouldn't raise the intake up too much.

Thus far, the plan is to run OEM gaskets between the heads and the phenolic spacers and RTV between the top-side of the spacers and the TGVs.

Provided this tests out, I'm sure GrimmSpeed will likely recommend this method; otherwise, we'll report to them what we found to be the most successful method for a creating a reliable seal and they'll make other recommendations based on these findings.

Thus far, the plan is to run OEM gaskets between the heads and the phenolic spacers and RTV between the top-side of the spacers and the TGVs.

Provided this tests out, I'm sure GrimmSpeed will likely recommend this method; otherwise, we'll report to them what we found to be the most successful method for a creating a reliable seal and they'll make other recommendations based on these findings.

You want to run an OEM gasket on BOTH sides of the phenolic spacer. In this manner, you can easily remove the spacer at a later time (if you need to). The phenolic spacers from kstech include new OEM gaskets for the install (or you can opt out and pay less).

t

and i'm back from vacation to get back to the daily grind....


How can I get my hands on a set of these? Are they available yet?

they will be very soon..once we get our test results back from our large test group.

pricing?

no exact price point yet but comparable to they hondatas.

You want to run an OEM gasket on BOTH sides of the phenolic spacer. In this manner, you can easily remove the spacer at a later time (if you need to). The phenolic spacers from kstech include new OEM gaskets for the install (or you can opt out and pay less).

t

seriously dude..i dont know if you are the owner of kstech or what, but this is the 3rd time one of your chronies has crapped in my thread. could you kindly please leave.

Justin

seriously dude..i dont know if you are the owner of kstech or what, but this is the 3rd time one of your chronies has crapped in my thread. could you kindly please leave.

Justin

I am not the owner of KSTech. I moderate on IWSTI. I am lending info to this post on Phenolic spacers. Sorry if that offends you. It's the internet.

t

I am not the owner of KSTech. I moderate on IWSTI. I am lending info to this post on Phenolic spacers. Sorry if that offends you. It's the internet.

t

this is the third time someone has promoted this other companys product in our announcement thread.

thanks..


guys...any of you get these installed over the weekend when i was out?

this is the third time someone has promoted this other companys product in our announcement thread.

thanks..


guys...any of you get these installed over the weekend when i was out?


Sorry. I didn't know that. I did a search for phenolic spacers and found this post. Didn't really realize it was your product announcement thread. That's the problem with searches - too easy to find a related topic and post (without the full context). Sorry.

t

Sorry. I didn't know that. I did a search for phenolic spacers and found this post. Didn't really realize it was your product announcement thread. That's the problem with searches - too easy to find a related topic and post (without the full context). Sorry.

t

no worries...sent you a pm back.


Justin

I am N/A.....but i can sure use one of these...

I'm intrested!

any idea how thick these are?

Sweet,

I have been waiting for some of these.

When they are available I am in.

They ought to work on a Forester XT, they use the same engine as an STi.

Sweet,

I have been waiting for some of these.

When they are available I am in.

They ought to work on a Forester XT, they use the same engine as an STi.

Ben,

I'm installing mine this weekend (among a ton of other stuff) and have an open-invite out to anyone that wants to stop by.

If you want to check them out prior to the install, hit me up via PM and I'll give you my address - I'm in Macomb Township.

alright guys... we've had great luck with using no oem gaskets at all. it looks like these may compress just enough to make it work perfectly. if your mating surfaces are damaged i'd say probably use gaskets but if they are perfectly fine you shouldnt need to.

Justin

awesome! So can we buy them yet?

awesome! So can we buy them yet?

Sweet,

I have been waiting for some of these.

When they are available I am in.

They ought to work on a Forester XT, they use the same engine as an STi.

right now!!

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1255931

just wanted to check back in this thread and let everyone know that the spacers are still holding up strong

mmhmm

i went with the OEM gaskets on either side of the spacer - method. so far, worked well with factory torque specs.

justin: oh em gee cams sound good w/ a prodrive. i need to find a video camera.

mmhmm

i went with the OEM gaskets on either side of the spacer - method. so far, worked well with factory torque specs.

justin: oh em gee cams sound good w/ a prodrive. i need to find a video camera.

awesome, thanks for the update jasper :)

i will paypal you for them this week.

i will paypal you for them this week.

no worries youpers.

Justin

did a bit of "testing" tonight.

manifold (w/ thermal dispersant coating) remains lukewarm to the touch after FLOGGING the car. hotside FMIC charge pipes are uncomfortably hot. heads are VERY hot. they seem to do their job rather well :devil:

and yea, i gotta recirc the EWG. holyshart loud.