There's a company called Full-Race in AZ that R&D's the best manifolds for a whole bunch of factory and aftermarket turbocharged cars. I have one of their exhaust manifolds and turbo kits on my acura. It's the best you can get in my opinion.

There aren't any exhuast manifolds better built, more reliable, fluidly effecient, and perfectly engineered- the closest would be Hytech in the Honda/acura world, which requires bracing for daily drivin cars and they don't reccomend street driving their headers even with additional bracing(Hytech, that is). The Full-Race exhaust manfolds are simply the best engineered exhaust manifolds- but they aren't cheap! That's (again) just my opinion.

Ever since I bought my STI, I've told myself that I would buy a Full-Race manifold if they came out with one for my suby.
So, with out making you read more- as I don't know any more:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g113/sleeperinseattle/FullRace/fullracemani.jpg

UpPIPE
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g113/sleeperinseattle/FullRace/fullraceuppipe.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1098&osCsid=1c7ca315ca63a066285fc8b7d0a6b463


I don't know how much it will cost, probably about as much as the Ohlin struts I want, hopefully less. The supra manifolds are $2,300, and ours is almost as complex....

Here's a link for a supra manifold and downpipe pic just for kicks:
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g113/sleeperinseattle/FullRace/fullracesupraT6exhaustmani.jpg
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=495&osCsid=b1e02f6baea8153bf27786d366024ef7

I'm really excited about this product and can't wait till I have enough money to buy it!

I'd just thought I'd share. Hopefully, I didn't do anything wrong by posting about this new product that's coming out soon for us!!!! I have no affiliation with Full-Race- just a lot of respect becuase of results I've personally experienced.

:wave:

James

UPDATE:
Here's the first dyno chart with a comparison of the FULL-RACE vs APS manifold this was just using the APS tune and swapping to the Full-Race manifold and adding fuel (but no timing or boost) to make it safe:
Dotted Line = Full-Race Turbo Manifold
Solid Line = APS
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g113/sleeperinseattle/FullRace/fullracedynoagile52307-1.gif


Here's the Dyno chart comparing the conservatively tuned FULL-RACE vs STOCK manifold keeping as many tuned parameters identical a/f, timing, and others beyond my comprehension:
Dotted Line = Full-Race Turbo Manifold
Solid Line = Stock STi Manifold
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g113/sleeperinseattle/FullRace/fullracevsstockhptq.gif
:banana: :banana: :banana:

looks good but, it looks like an aftermarket turbo would go on that particular header. I like it.

i was actually there and saw it in person. looks very nice but very pricey. I just want to see some dyno plots with it.

nice i want :D

I have seen this header. It looks to be very nice but heavy. I would choose this header over any other......especially since my APS is cracked and since it was "wrapped" probably I'm screwed.

Hope they release an equal lenght for stock location turbos. Robotically tig-welded ftw.

Looks nice, but I'd like to see it mounted either with in engine or (even better) in car. I can't tell, but is the flange T3 or T4?

Also, does anyone know if they're going to manufacture a down pipe, too? (I would imagine the angle of the turbo probably won't match other rotated down pipes.)

They rotated the turbo a whole 90*. thats the first Ive seen that on a Subie.

^^^You need to get out more :-p
This has been out for awhile
http://www.forcedairtech.com/turbokits_wrx_stage2.html

^^^You need to get out more :-p
This has been out for awhile
http://www.forcedairtech.com/turbokits_wrx_stage2.html

They dont count with their 2 turbos and a belt driven supercharger. :lol:

They rotated the turbo a whole 90*. thats the first Ive seen that on a Subie.

Actually it isnt rotated at all it looks straight according to the flang on it.

Actually it isnt rotated at all it looks straight according to the flang on it.

+1
It looks suspiciously straight to me as well.

Another vote for a stock-mount T3 setup.

But I fail to see an ext. wastegate, bleh.

Yea my bad. For some reason I thought the T3 flanges went the other way.

looks like a twin scroll

But it's not. Look at the engles of the entry pipes and no division inside the flange. Also, almost every twin scroll would have external wastegate(s).

full race makes some of the best manifolds. good to see they're giving some suby love now.

not equal length, is this a problem?

Full-race makes the best manifolds, they are expensive but they produce great results and won't crack like the cheap manifolds. I'm getting one for my ride, too bad they cost a grand.....
Glad to hear ther are jumping into the subaru communtiy!

Hey Guys -- the manifold in the pictures on our site is simply one of our old designs. We have actually been through 12 design changes since then, and are just about ready to start production on the final iteration

the manifolds WILL have (2) external wastegates, and are available in T4 twinscroll orientation ONLY (single scroll loses so much power/spool as compared to twinscroll its not an option worth considering IMO). The lower manifolds all use stepped primaries.

any questions feel free to email me via PM as i dont get on here too often. thanks

not equal length, is this a problem?

designing around "equal length" according to a tape measure is meaningless, the proper way to design a manifold is according to the pressure drop from the head port to the turbine inlet. Rather than match lengths, you want to match pressure drops.

Nice.

Is that a downpipe or a whales c0ck on the supra turbo?

Is that a downpipe or a whales c0ck on the supra turbo?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

designing around "equal length" according to a tape measure is meaningless, the proper way to design a manifold is according to the pressure drop from the head port to the turbine inlet. Rather than match lengths, you want to match pressure drops.

I didn't know you did that. Fantastic! I look forward to the results.

I didn't know you did that. Fantastic! I look forward to the results.

thats why they make awesome manifolds.

hmmm.....do i smell a possible group buy when the final product is out:devil:

Im Down!!!!!

That looks nice but I like my new one better at half the cost :D

yes, its a twin scroll and equal length. The uppipe is setup for EWG..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/shefflk/DSC01643.jpg

yes, its a twin scroll and equal length.

is it thickwall stainless, tig welded and not going to crack?

is it thickwall stainless, tig welded and not going to crack?

it's not going to crack :cool:

who makes it and what is the material? is the up-pipe twinscroll too?

who makes it and what is the material? is the up-pipe twinscroll too?

Sean at GPmoto made it, everything is stainless. The up-pipe is indeed twin scroll and is seperated all the up to the EWG which is rerouted back into the downpipe.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/shefflk/DSC01646.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/shefflk/DSC01647.jpg

they clearly know how to make good power on a boxer platform, the general design is quite good. Unfortunately it is unlikely it will last thousands of heat cycles. It appears to be a good design from a flow standpoint, just not structural (material looks like 0.065" 304 stainless?) . Please dont take offense to what i am saying, I dont mean anything bad by this or against GPmotors just telling you from what i see, cracks are hard to stop and this design is almost inherently going to crack. it is possible it would last, but i would be very surprised looking at those pictures

designing around "equal length" according to a tape measure is meaningless, the proper way to design a manifold is according to the pressure drop from the head port to the turbine inlet. Rather than match lengths, you want to match pressure drops.

I gotta say Full-Race is top notch. Their ram horn manifolds for the Honda world are the best often others try to duplicate, but never close to the same quality or performance.

You'll never see such nice welds and quality then a Full-Race manifold....They will never crack period...

Altohugh GPMoto definitely know their **** too, but I have no experience with any of their products 1st or 2nd hand.

Friend was a former Turbo GSR owner his car was FAST...Got one of your first kits...

Matt

I was just salivating the other day over the S2000 manifolds Full Race makes.... they are the most beautiful I've seen.... if beauty = power Full Race's will make a ton of power :lol:
Funny because I was telling my buddy that Full Race should make a manifold for the WRX and now here it is.

It sure looks like the labor & design time it takes to make their manifolds is alot more than most others. That's why they cost so much. But most of us can not afford upwards of $1500 for a manifold. That's the price of a large turbo.

Worth the money if you have it !

engineerx - yo roland I was telling Full-Race Geoff about your car a couple weeks ago. He was looking for a car in the socal/Az area to fab everything up on. I was going to give him your name but I saw you had just purchased the UR kit. Hit him up if you want to go for a ton of quick spooling power :)

For the record I have a cracked APS header and they will not warranty it because it was wrapped. F**K APS. I need a manifold by Yesterday. I have money in hand to buy this manifold NOW.

Sending you a pm, Geoff.

Looking forward to updates/test data....

they clearly know how to make good power on a boxer platform, the general design is quite good. Unfortunately it is unlikely it will last thousands of heat cycles. It appears to be a good design from a flow standpoint, just not structural (material looks like 0.065" 304 stainless?) . Please dont take offense to what i am saying, I dont mean anything bad by this or against GPmotors just telling you from what i see, cracks are hard to stop and this design is almost inherently going to crack. it is possible it would last, but i would be very surprised looking at those pictures

No offense taken and I dont know the exact material size etc, but I do know that several other people had this style header on their car for over a year and over 10,000 miles with no issues.

I had the previous gen GPmoto EQL header on my car that I bought used from my friend, that header has over 3 years of use and 30,000 miles on it with no cracking at all....I'm not worried though, GPmoto told me that they stand by their product and any issues would be fixed/replaced.

Your product looks top notch, nice to see more hig end options for our cars. I hope you continue to develop more products for our platform..I'm always looking for more things I can put on my car :)

Looking forward to updates/test data....

its coming! :D

Do either of you back purge the tubing while welding it?

why not use v-bands on the intersection between the header/up-pipe?

are you going to brace the (up-pipe) exhaust to the block in any manner to help prevent cracking (that is one big-ass turbo up there on it's exhaust pedestal)?

just a few ideas to help build a better exhaust.

Full race has a great product, but its meant for really big power, not your average daily drive makin 400 on this. How much is that mani? 1500?? something like that?
Spend that money where it will make more of a difference.

Also, the way the flange is positioned it looks like the turbo is pointing straight forward and the intake will point in the stock position. Is this the case?

Also, the way the flange is positioned it looks like the turbo is pointing straight forward and the intake will point in the stock position. Is this the case?

Are you talking about my turbo? if so then no, the CAI faces how you would expect a rotated style setup to be..here is a pic: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/shefflk/DSCN2638.jpg

Are you talking about my turbo? if so then no, the CAI faces how you would expect a rotated style setup to be..here is a pic: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v728/shefflk/DSCN2638.jpg

No, I was talking about the full-race product. Nice intake manifold though!

Bet yall this is gonna be one pricey metal! lol.

hmmm.....do i smell a possible group buy when the final product is out:devil:
I'll be getting in on that for sure.

I have a couple of friends running various stg Full Race Kits on their boosted RSXs and it is always top notch quality with tire shredding power, and the number one tubro kit talked about on the crsx boards.

why not use v-bands on the intersection between the header/up-pipe?

Heck, what not also go with a V-band turbine inlet?

http://www.tialsport.com/p_images/ss%20gt33%20sm.jpg

type-o all fixed on page 3

so theres no way i would be able to get a uppipe with a tial 38....i have the element gt65 rotated kit...but a real garrett gt35r on it...with a tial 38....will this uppipe house my turbo with the twin scroll pipes or do i have to change my exhaust housing...and i would have to change my dp....either to vband or if i keep my exhaust housing...reuse my 4bolt flange.

im impressed with the knowledge on this forum, these are some great questions! ... this is going to be a long response

Also, the way the flange is positioned it looks like the turbo is pointing straight forward and the intake will point in the stock position. Is this the case?

The manifold pictured on our online store is nothing like the production part, but it was the only picture we had in the database. Images will be updated as soon as we are closer to production. We have kept quiet about this for some time as we dont want to give too much away just yet.

Here are some sneakpreview pics of our final design for the T3 Twinscroll Rotated-Mount turbokit. This particular setup is using a single tial 60mm wastegate for maximum flow and accurate backpressure control. The turbo is a bit lower than most other kits on the market to maximize flow and optimize the lowest CG possible.

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/T3turbokit.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/frontview.jpg


Heck, what not also go with a V-band turbine inlet?

Our manifolds will be available with the TiAL vband turbine inlet as soon as those housings are available! They are not for sale quite yet, the only ones we've seen here are for testing only. The big advantage of staying on a t3 or a t4 footprint (over a vband tial inlet or traditional garrett 4 bolt) is the fact that you can use a true twinscroll tangential turbine housing. This is one area where you can find massive spool and power/tq gains over the traditional subie setups ive seen (at least 100+whp/tq and 500-1000rpm spool gains)

T3 twinscroll vband outlet
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/T3%20twinscroll-2.jpg


Do either of you back purge the tubing while welding it? why not use v-bands on the intersection between the header/up-pipe?



1) back purge -- YES!!! our welds are always purged whether its a charge pipe, a downpipe or a manifold -- If you want a steel to live in a high temperature, high vibration, and high oxidation (on both sides) environment and not crack, there must not be any imperfections or microscopic cracks that are just waiting to propagate, and the material must be rock solid. Cracks can and will grow when given the chance (high vib/temp/heat). On a turbo car, a cracked manifold can lose anywhere from 80-200whp/wtq.

heres a shot of the inside and outside of a sample weld i just did without purge (just for the sake of a picture) and 3 sample welds we did this morning with the purge

no purge (you can see the thousands of microscopic cracks that form on the surface):

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/FRmaterial/nopurge.jpg

with purge (the weld looks as good on the inside as it does on the outside):

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/FRmaterial/insideweld2.jpg

cross sectioned tube that was purged to show the exact inner surface of the weld, and zero chance of cracking:

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/FRmaterial/insideweld.jpg

and finally, a comparison the thickness of our 8 gauge forged stainless elbows compared to the average exhaust manifold material- 16 gauge 304 tube

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/FRmaterial/thickVSthin.jpg

2) why not vbands at the pipe junction? Great question, and as much as we love vbands here, there are a lot of reasons -- The 3bolt flange has much more surface area than a vband, which results in a better sealing surface that is much easier to surface if it ever warps (and stainless pipe does warp!). The flange results in a stronger manifold/uppipe than if it were to have vbands, because the flange acts as a brace for the mani and up pipe. The flange provides a better/stronger weldment for both sets of primaries. The flange also allows people who use the APS manifold or up pipe to switch to ours, and for any one who uses our setups to upgrade form the stock turbo to a t3 turbo to a t4 turbo, all with a simple change of an uppipe. This is really designed to be the last manifold you will ever need for a subaru.
3) braces are not necessary for most applications, but we do recommend them. We will have one available shortly, but it is really intended more for the rally/offroad applications more than street driven vehicles.
Full race has a great product, but its meant for really big power, not your average daily drive makin 400 on this. How much is that mani? 1500?? something like that? Spend that money where it will make more of a difference.
Honestly, if you are looking to heavily upgrade the turbo side of a subaru, it will be hard to find a better place to spend money than on an optimized turbocharger exhaust manifold. Our manifolds are deisgned for stock turbos to 1000whp drag cars and everything in between. Anyone who uses this design will realize significant gains and great reliability whether they are on the stock flange internal gate turbo or a twinscroll GT4088R
edit: this is a picture of our stockturbo uppipe. note the seperate twinscroll runners... it makes a big difference, particularly if you compare it to the restrictive runners/uppipe found on some of the other "high end" turbo manifolds out there

FR up pipe
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/stockturbouppipe.jpg

APS up pipe
http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/stock%20turbo/APSstockturbouppipe.jpg

the tial 38mm gate is MUCH too small for the GT35R. the only reason its working right now on your turbo kit is likely due to the fact that you have excessively high backpressure, and that is probably holding you back 60-80whp.

How would a 38mm gate be too small? Depends on the boost levels, does it not?

so theres no way i would be able to get a uppipe with a tial 38....i have the element gt65 rotated kit...but a real garrett gt35r on it...with a tial 38....will this uppipe house my turbo with the twin scroll pipes or do i have to change my exhaust housing...and i would have to change my dp....either to vband or if i keep my exhaust housing...reuse my 4bolt flange.

the tial 38mm gate is quite a bit too small for the GT35R. More than likely, the reason its working right now on your turbo kit is due to the fact that you have excessively high backpressure (which is probably holding you back 60-80whp). If you used it on our manifold, it would have severe boost creep problems due to the high efficiency of our manifold and the corresponding VE increase. Boost creep means you would probably have problems running under 18 psi boost

you can keep the same turbo and turbine housing you have now, but you would see huge performance gains if you decided to go to a true twinscroll housing on your 35R.

the DP will definitley be different.

How would a 38mm gate be too small? Depends on the boost levels, does it not?

WG sizing depends on manifold design and back pressure levels. Boost is just an indication of compressor restriction in the intake path

If you have high backpressure, you can use a small wastegate (which is unfortunately very bad for power, but good for emissions).

If you have low backpressure, and you use a small wastegate, you will have problems at low boost. This is called "boost creep" and no matter if you set your boost controller to 7 psi, you will see the bost climb to 16,17,even 20psi, no matter what. you simply can not turn the boost down. This is of course dependant on how small the gate is, how low the pressure is, and how well the system works (everything from charge pipe layout, endtank design and turbine housing size/config/layout play a role in this)

The reason a full-race kit will make more power at less boost than a comparison kit is becuase we run so much less backpressure than everyone else. if you think of the wastegate as a "valve", then the size of the valve dictates how much air can pass through it.

So, to clear my confusion up. Back purging is basically welding the inside, also?

sort of but not really... backpurging simply makes the weld perfect on both sides. if you dont backpurge it can only be good on one side, which in all reality, is not very strong

will the manifold section bolt up to the OE twinscroll manifold to use the factory twinscroll u/p or will you be making one for the OE twinscroll? thanks.

Material is 321 SS?

unfortunately i have not yet seen the factory twinscroll so i dont know if it would work or not, and we do not have anything planned as of yet. If there is some info please link me.

the material used for our manifolds is 8 gauge 316H. The thickness is 0.145"

we are just finishing up the GT4088R twinscroll setups, if anyone is interested ill post pics

So, to clear my confusion up. Back purging is basically welding the inside, also?

Back purging = Running Argon through the piping you will be welding to purge the oxygen. This works b/c Argon is heavier than oxygen.

Post all the pics ya got Geoff!

we are just finishing up the GT4088R twinscroll setups, if anyone is interested ill post pics

yes please do post pics. this is the setup i've been waiting to see from you guys ;)

designing around "equal length" according to a tape measure is meaningless, the proper way to design a manifold is according to the pressure drop from the head port to the turbine inlet. Rather than match lengths, you want to match pressure drops.

What!!!!
I think it would be pretty hard to adjust "pressure drops" by changing pipe length
for one thing the pressure in the pipe is never static

looks to me like they are more likely different length because of convenience and aesthetics....

pressure drop differences should be taken care of with the head work (on a flow bench)

tuned length headers by nature should give you the same relative port pressures over the exhaust cycle

tuned length headers are for propogation of sound pressure waves and should be the same "mean" length.. (from the valve) this means on subie you need to also allow for the slightly longer length of the dogs leg ports on the head...

damn fine looking welding/pipework though...

yes please do post pics. this is the setup i've been waiting to see from you guys ;)

+1:devil:

and finally, a comparison the thickness of our 8 gauge forged stainless elbows compared to the average exhaust manifold material- 16 gauge 304 tube

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/FRmaterial/thickVSthin.jpgCan you please clarify what the gauge of the main tubing will be? Is it ALL 8ga or is it just the elbows? Also, expected availability?

OMG. I am at a loss for words. This would certainly appear to be the next level, and what i will replace my green/tial38 with.

sigh. I'm going to be thinking about this all day.
Hunter

Back purging = Running Argon through the piping you will be welding to purge the oxygen. This works b/c Argon is heavier than oxygen

that is correct, argon has more mass than oxygen, but more additionally argon is an inert gas, so oxidation can not take place

yes please do post pics. this is the setup i've been waiting to see from you guys ;)

here ya go dan! some preliminary pics until we can assemble everything on an engine stand

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/GT40R/STIGT40R-1.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/GT40R/STIGT40R-2.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/GT40R/STIGT40R-3.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/GT40R/STIGT40R-4.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/GT40R/STIGT40R-5.jpg

Can you please clarify what the gauge of the main tubing will be? Is it ALL 8ga or is it just the elbows? Also, expected availability?

our manifolds are constructed ENTIRELY of 8 gauge thickwall. The only thing we use thinwall material for is the downpipe and exhaust.

availability is realistically about 4-6 weeks away

What!!!!

I think it would be pretty hard to adjust "pressure drops" by changing pipe length for one thing the pressure in the pipe is never static, looks to me like they are more likely different length because of convenience and aesthetics.... pressure drop differences should be taken care of with the head work (on a flow bench). tuned length headers by nature should give you the same relative port pressures over the exhaust cycle. tuned length headers are for propogation of sound pressure waves and should be the same "mean" length.. (from the valve) this means on subie you need to also allow for the slightly longer length of the dogs leg ports on the head...damn fine looking welding/pipework though...

lots of things to mention in your thread:

-it is hard to adjust pressure drops, that is why so few mfg do it. It has very little to do with "convenience and aesthetics" as im sure you notice how many extra welds our manifold has vs the other one posted in this thread. Welding takes time and costs money, we do it for a reason.

-pressure drop in the head should be taken care of on a flow bench, that is a given. The pressure drop from the valve to the flange has aboslutely nothing to do with the pressure drop from the flange to the turbo. these are two entirely different control volumes (incase youve ever taken a thermo or fluids course)

-what is a "tuned length header"? that phrase has never really been clear to me. are you tuning for a helmholtz resonance peak or an exhaust note? What are you "tuning" and how are you tuning it?

-thanks for the compliments!

OMG. I am at a loss for words. This would certainly appear to be the next level, and what i will replace my green/tial38 with. sigh. I'm going to be thinking about this all day.

haha sorry to distract you

Geoff, did you get me PM? :confused:

do you mean this one?

Geoff, PWEEESE make a full 3" non-catted downpipe!!!

ahead of you on this one ;)

Yes, that one!!!

When do you think it will be available?

wow... can't wait for it to hit the market. I was gonna order a header for my STi yesterday, but I guess I'll wait :D

That turbo kit is simply awesome! cant wait to see it hit the market...impressive!

the tial 38mm gate is quite a bit too small for the GT35R. More than likely, the reason its working right now on your turbo kit is due to the fact that you have excessively high backpressure (which is probably holding you back 60-80whp). If you used it on our manifold, it would have severe boost creep problems due to the high efficiency of our manifold and the corresponding VE increase. Boost creep means you would probably have problems running under 18 psi boost

you can keep the same turbo and turbine housing you have now, but you would see huge performance gains if you decided to go to a true twinscroll housing on your 35R.

the DP will definitley be different.

Just to back this up:

My buddy that had a full-race manifold on his turbo gsr with a GT30R had to upgrade from a 38 to a larger wastegate because of boost creep. And as everyone knows Honda's stock flow very well, so you can see this example when you add a Full-Race manifold to a Honda how much more is flows cause the Wastegate could not keep up.

Actually it may have been my other buddy that had a Turbo Si that had to upgrade from a 38 to a larger wastegate. He also had a Full-race manifold & a larger turbo not a garret series though.

It easy for me to show examples cause Full-race has been in the Honda world forever and my buddy was one of the 1st bunch of high HP GSRs did 515WHP.

Wish I had money right now for your Full-Race manifold for dsms/evos. I just got a 91 GSX with a few goodies:devil:

Wish I lived in Az I'd have offered to be your test mule with the STi

Matt

Yes, that one!! When do you think it will be available?

conservative estimates are 4-6 weeks. This kit design is extremely difficult and time consuming to manufacture, so we are working hard on trying to revise the design so that man hours/weld times can be reduced, improving leadtimes and costs. not at all an easy thing to do

wow... can't wait for it to hit the market. I was gonna order a header for my STi yesterday, but I guess I'll wait :D

thanks for your patience, i will try to make it worth the wait

my buddy was one of the 1st bunch of high HP GSRs did 515WHP.

is your buddy Mike from PA? hes the only person i remember making 515 whp in a GSR, i think it was 3 years ago? tell him i said hi

It will mate up right to the VF39?

It will mate up right to the VF39?

we are not making downpipes for internally gated turbochargers.

We will only be making downpipes for 4 bolt and Vband outlet turbine housings

So, I could buy the Manifold and Up-pipe for my stock location Turbo now (when it's available) and then just buy a new Up-Pipe (and Down-Pipe, etc.) when I'm ready to go to a Rotated Twin-Scroll setup?

P.S. - Subscribed for more updates. I'm very interested and excited about this!

Looks good Goeff! As always perfect welds.

Clark

So, I could buy the Manifold and Up-pipe for my stock location Turbo now (when it's available) and then just buy a new Up-Pipe (and Down-Pipe, etc.) when I'm ready to go to a Rotated Twin-Scroll setup?

That is correct. This design is engineered to be the last you will need to buy as it can adapt to almost any desireable configuration.

You can start with a stock turbo. Then go to a twinscroll t3 rotated mount for up to 600+whp. Then go to a twinscroll T4 rotated for up to 850+whp.

is your buddy Mike from PA? hes the only person i remember making 515 whp in a GSR, i think it was 3 years ago? tell him i said hi

Yes I will tell him. He has an Evo MR now and one of our buddies bought his gsr.

The gsr now made over 550whp with Type R cams everything else the same...

I told him to chime in and say hi...He may make an apperance.

Matt

looking forward to prices. . hopefully not over a thousand..

looking forward to prices. . hopefully not over a thousand..

:lol: :lol: :lol:

looking forward to prices. . hopefully not over a thousand..

Are you talking about £1000? :p

Geoff--what are your thoughts on thermal coating your exhaust manifold?? Also, would there be any additional benefits in running a 3.5 inch downpipe/exhaust. Thanks in advance for for reply.

Great design guys, cant wait to see what Full-Race has to offer for the subarus i was looking at the APS headers i now know i have something great to wait for!

Will there be an EWG option for the stock mount turbo location?

I hope to see the 60MM tial V-Band style !

Are you talking about £1000? :p


hey one can hope..lol

Geoff --

Can you comment on fitment for us 2006 WRX owners? Has this been tested yet?

Geoff--what are your thoughts on thermal coating your exhaust manifold?? Also, would there be any additional benefits in running a 3.5 inch downpipe/exhaust. Thanks in advance for for reply.

I am a firm believer in coatings. My current favorite is the HPC black (their silver just doesnt last) Many header manufacturers void their warranty if you coat their products, but not us. Coatings not only help reduce heat transfer, but they also reduce oxidation at both surfaces, a major factor in increasing durability. Swaintech also does some great coatings but they are UGLY lol. thermal wrpas help with heat, but actually harm the material from a corrosion standpoint as they seem to accelerate oxidation. We still honor warranties of wrapped headers, but they are often the most abused.

We really dont do much in 3.5" here, usually only 3" or 4". The 3.5" material tends to cost even more than 4" and doesnt offer much benefit. For most turbos tho, i like to go to 4" in the tunner and through to the exhaust. it will often times lean your tune out a bit and decrease backpressure depending on the size of the turbo. On a gt40R and bigger 4" exhaust should be considered mandatory


Will there be an EWG option for the stock mount turbo location? I hope to see the 60MM tial V-Band style !

To be honest, we hadnt planned on an Eexternal wastegate option for stock turbos. All the stock turbos we've seen have used internal gates. What turbo are you using that you would want to use a 60mm tial to control?

Can you comment on fitment for us 2006 WRX owners? Has this been tested yet?

The only WRX we have tested for fitment was a 2002. Assuming your '06 has the same oil pan, our header will not clear the oil pan. If your '06 has the STI pan there should be no problems

looking forward to prices. . hopefully not over a thousand..

its definately going to be over a thousand, but not sure by how much. We're working on cutting costs without sacrificing anything.

Yes I will tell him. He has an Evo MR now and one of our buddies bought his gsr. The gsr now made over 550whp with Type R cams everything else the same...I told him to chime in and say hi...He may make an apperance.

tell him im sad to hear he got rid of the GSR! hopefully his MR will be just as fast :)

Geof. Tubular designs almost always spool later than logs(not always) and won't help keep backpressure in the ex manifold that helps to build torque.
on a daily driver car most everyone would be suited better buy having a log or short tubu design. Obviously the suby is gonna have long runners so here is a situation where your mani will shine.

Looks great guys. I love FullRace stuff..

P.S. count on this thing being $1500(TONS of man hours). pricey, but worth every penny,,, if you have all those pennies :). My fabricator takes SOOOO long to do things but when you watch how picky good fabricators are you really learn to appreciate it.

Full-Race is the best hands down.

my brother used 2 of thier manifolds on 2 diffrent setups(b series and sr20)...quality is top notch and the power gains are worth every penny.

i wish i could afford badass parts..i have to settle for good parts though

To be honest, we hadnt planned on an Eexternal wastegate option for stock turbos. All the stock turbos we've seen have used internal gates. What turbo are you using that you would want to use a 60mm tial to control?



Geoff,
the wastegates on the stock turbo suck. that is reason enough right there.

also there are a lot of larger "stock mount" turbos that could really use the external gate. the FP red and FP green both come to mind when i think of this.
there is currently only one Up pipe that incorperates the 60mm v band external gate that i can think of. it would be nice to have this as an option on your header.
Good job with a great product, and keep cranking out more for the Subarus i think it will help your business grow as subarus can cross a lot of parts from year to year.

Hey Geoff long time no talk!! I see you've made it over to the subie camp to
show them what Full-Race is all about. You subie guys are in for a real treat.
I really can't say enough good things about full-race. The fact that they
engineer their product, use the best materials and their welds are the best in
the business is one thing. I would be willing to bet when this debuts it will
make more power then any other subie manifold on the market is the other.
I'm not a bandwagon guy and you don't have to be cause full-race has
proven themselves time and time again. Lets see, best kit in the honda world,
then they make the best bolt in manifold for the evo's (only one that made
real power) then they engineer a kit to turn a 240 into a skyline. It is a very
impressive resume and apprently they will add to it with this subie venture.
Like PA04Sti (Matt) said I had a turbo gsr and it made 515whp and the
manifold and kit is now 3 years old with never one problem! I'll be getting the
stock replacement manifold for my evo at some point and hopefully matt will
pony up the money for one of these...lol Geoff I was sad to see the GSR go
and I don't think the evo will be as fast but it will have traction!!..lol

Best Regards,

Mike

What size ID is the tubing you are using for the primary and secondary tubing?

Where are you locating the O2 sensor on stock turbo Up-pipes and twin scroll up-pipes?

Are the flex sections internal and external braid?

The first O2 sensor in the stock twinscroll setup is in the downpipe, not in the manifold or uppipe.

The only WRX we have tested for fitment was a 2002. Assuming your '06 has the same oil pan, our header will not clear the oil pan. If your '06 has the STI pan there should be no problems

I believe that the '06 WRX has the same oil pan as the STi. However, the oil cooler/filter location is different which causes fitment problems with some aftermarket manifolds.

If would be awesome if you guys could get a chance to do a test fitting and verify the results. Heck, if you need a test car, hit me up, hehehehe. :D

Full-Race buiding Subi products, NICE!!!

Geof. Tubular designs almost always spool later than logs(not always) and won't help keep backpressure in the ex manifold that helps to build torque. on a daily driver car most everyone would be suited better buy having a log or short tubu design.

some interesting food for thought regarding what a properly designed tubular manifold does,as compared to a log or poorly designed tubular:

-A good tubular manifold will keep backpressure high when you want it high, and low when you want it low. (ie: full-race)

-A log manifold will keep backpressure high when you want it high and WAYYYYY too high when you want it low. (ie: stock manifold with afermarket up pipe)

-A bad tubular manifold will keep backpressure too low when you want it high, and moderate to high when you want backpressure low. (ie: aftermarket up pipe w/aftermarket equal length lower manifold)


I really can't say enough good things about full-race...I'll be getting the stock replacement manifold for my evo at some point and hopefully matt will pony up the money for one of these...lol Geoff I was sad to see the GSR go and I don't think the evo will be as fast but it will have traction!!


Hey mike -- great to hear from you! good to see your screen name is still the same haha. before you decide on the evo stock replacement hold out until you see our next generation evo turbo kits. Weve been coming up with a major redesign over the past few months and will have the prototypes ready by the end of summer. The new designs will really change alot of peoples minds in the evo community, shouldnt be a problem smoking your GSR :devil: lol thanks again for the kind words sir!


I believe that the '06 WRX has the same oil pan as the STi. However, the oil cooler/filter location is different which causes fitment problems with some aftermarket manifolds. If would be awesome if you guys could get a chance to do a test fitting and verify the results. Heck, if you need a test car, hit me up

that is what i thought too? i think it will work, but if you wanted to bring a car to us, we'd be happy to test fit! it would make a bit more sense to try to find a local car, but if you want to come for the drive we're down

The first O2 sensor in the stock twinscroll setup is in the downpipe, not in the manifold or uppipe.

ours is also located in the downpipe. It would not work properly in the runners as the twinscroll pulse width would not agree with what the o2 is expecting to see. it must be post-turbine to get a proper reading

the wastegates on the stock turbo suck. that is reason enough right there. Also there are a lot of larger "stock mount" turbos that could really use the external gate. the FP red and FP green both come to mind when i think of this. There is currently only one Up pipe that incorperates the 60mm v band external gate that i can think of. it would be nice to have this as an option on your header. Good job with a great product, and keep cranking out more for the Subarus i think it will help your business grow as subarus can cross a lot of parts from year to year.

your wish has been granted (just in time!). Today we got the design for the external wastegate on stock turbo finished and it came out very well. I am particularly happy with the dump tube configuration. Ill have some pictures ready by the end of this week. Thanks for the kind wishes!

your wish has been granted (just in time!). Today we got the design for the external wastegate on stock turbo finished and it came out very well. I am particularly happy with the dump tube configuration. Ill have some pictures ready by the end of this week. Thanks for the kind wishes!

Good to hear cant wait to see the pics of this bad boy!

Subscribed, I don't even have my green on yet, but I already think I know what my NEXT turbo setup will be :)

Stupid question time. What is a log manifold?

It looks like a log...

http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/s14man2.jpg

thats correct, the stock subie manifold is simply (2) log manifolds connected together.

they give you high backpressure at low rpm to spool the turbo quickly, but high backpressure at high rpm for good emissions and dismal power production. They are also by far the cheapest to manufacture

Geoff any chance of seeing this car on Pinks! LOL.

Stupid question. What is weld purging?

It means flushing the welding area with an inert gas to eliminate oxidation of the weldment while it is liquid/hot. Without the inert gas shielding, you end up with weak welds that fail early and don't resist corrosion well.

What are the tube ID's for the primary and secondary tubes?

What are the tube ID's for the primary and secondary tubes?Also very interested!

So is the Full-Race going to locate the turbo lower than other kits other there? Which also means the header must be used with a Full-race specific downpipe only or would it fit other avaliable kits such as Ultimate-Racing gt35r.

I am asking because for those with a UR 35r or 30r kit should choose to upgrade to your header, what parts would needs to be replaced? Uppipe, downpipe, dumb tube if wastegate location is changed, intake if turbo location is changed...so basically the whole UR kit is abandoned...

I would think the majority market of your header is for those already with bigger turbo or rotated setups so I am very interested what your thoughts on compatibility of header-rotated kits since I am currenty in the market and making decisions on if I should purchase a rotated kit based on header compatibility.

really looking foward to seeing numbers from this bad boy..ewg set up on full race manifold for gt52 ftw!!!!

So is the Full-Race going to locate the turbo lower than other kits other there? Which also means the header must be used with a Full-race specific downpipe only or would it fit other avaliable kits such as Ultimate-Racing gt35r.

I am asking because for those with a UR 35r or 30r kit should choose to upgrade to your header, what parts would needs to be replaced? Uppipe, downpipe, dumb tube if wastegate location is changed, intake if turbo location is changed...so basically the whole UR kit is abandoned...

I would think the majority market of your header is for those already with bigger turbo or rotated setups so I am very interested what your thoughts on compatibility of header-rotated kits since I am currenty in the market and making decisions on if I should purchase a rotated kit based on header compatibility.

I would have no problem selling my Perrin rotated uppipe and downpipe (and inefficient T31 housing :rolleyes: :p ) to purchase the Full-Race setup if it proves to show good gains over what I currently have. Plus that twinscroll T4 uppipe is screaming my name too. :D

Stupid question. What is weld purging?

purging is the best way to ensure a good TIG weld on a tube. When you are TIG welding, your torch emits argon gas (inert gas means it will not react with anything). Argon is what allows us to weld on the outside. Purging is adding argon to the inside too. It results in a strong high-purity high-quality weld with minimal to no oxidation -- provided the welder is skilled enough to take advantage of the purge.

What are the tube ID's for the primary and secondary tubes?

sorry barge, i dont want to disclose that just yet



So is the Full-Race going to locate the turbo lower than other kits other there? Which also means the header must be used with a Full-race specific downpipe only or would it fit other avaliable kits such as Ultimate-Racing gt35r.

I am asking because for those with a UR 35r or 30r kit should choose to upgrade to your header, what parts would needs to be replaced? Uppipe, downpipe, dumb tube if wastegate location is changed, intake if turbo location is changed...so basically the whole UR kit is abandoned...

I would think the majority market of your header is for those already with bigger turbo or rotated setups so I am very interested what your thoughts on compatibility of header-rotated kits since I am currenty in the market and making decisions on if I should purchase a rotated kit based on header compatibility.

You are correct, our kit places the turbo much lower than most other kits. As a result, your ultimate downpipe and ultimate dumptube will not fit. However, i expect your intake pipe and charge piping to both work.

Our design is for optimal flow in and out of the turbo, on both sides. In order for this design to fit existing downpipes and dumptubes, it would compromise the performance, and that is not something we are willing to do. Rather than simply upgrade the manifold on your kit, you may want to consider selling the kit as a whole once you see the complete kits w/ front mount intercooler and ultra-efficient charge piping.

I would have no problem selling my Perrin rotated uppipe and downpipe (and inefficient T31 housing :rolleyes: :p ) to purchase the Full-Race setup if it proves to show good gains over what I currently have. Plus that twinscroll T4 uppipe is screaming my name too. :D

what do you currently have, and what power are you currently making? Id like to take you up on the offer, assuming of course you arent going to make the jump to a T4 just yet

sorry barge, i dont want to disclose that just yet


Hey... as long as we know once they're finalized I'm fine with that. I prefer not to just blindly buy what people say works.

what do you currently have, and what power are you currently making? Id like to take you up on the offer, assuming of course you arent going to make the jump to a T4 just yet

Geoff - PM'd you

Let me know if you're looking for any 02 WRX to test on :devil:

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/T3%20twinscroll-2.jpg

hmmm. What cold sides can this t3 twin entry be used with? I don't think I've ever seen that.

Nice stuff. i like the thick tubing and weld quality.

Hey Geoff, PM sent.

Thanks a lot.

Hello Geoff is Gadiel from Puerto Rico check your PM

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/T3%20twinscroll-2.jpg

hmmm. What cold sides can this t3 twin entry be used with? I don't think I've ever seen that.

Nice stuff. i like the thick tubing and weld quality.

this particular housing is setup for a Garrett GT30R, so it would work with a 3071R, a 3076R or a 3082R. We can configure these to work with the GT35R as well, but it requires slightly different machining

Geoff,
Any updated pictures?

The more and more I read/research about Full-Race, the more and more I like them. This manifold is going to be incredibly nice. Only problem is - I am thinking that it is going to be about $2000+. The Supra manifolds are $2400. The honda civic one is about $1400. Given that the honda manifold is $1400, there is no way that this header is going to be $1500 or less. It's gotta be substantially more than the civic header. There is a LOT more material/flanges and I *think* more welds too.

t

really looking foward to seeing numbers from this bad boy..ewg set up on full race manifold for gt52 ftw!!!!
It's funny you mention that because that is exactly what I plan on running.;)

any updates? EXTREMELY interested.

its sunday afternoon, we're here working on it! trying to get it 100% right is not easy. this is a very difficult platform to work with! sorry for the long waits but we are getting close. it will definately be worth the wait

thanks for the update geoff!!

I can't wait for this to come out.

Not sure if anyone here will make it to Englishtown Raceway Park this weekend for the D1GP/NHRA Event, but we will be on display there and the STI manifold will also be there :)

will that STI Manifold be making it's way back to AZ - or on someones STI for some testing... ;) :disco: :banana:

purging is the best way to ensure a good TIG weld on a tube. When you are TIG welding, your torch emits argon gas (inert gas means it will not react with anything). Argon is what allows us to weld on the outside. Purging is adding argon to the inside too. It results in a strong high-purity high-quality weld with minimal to no oxidation -- provided the welder is skilled enough to take advantage of the purge.



sorry barge, i dont want to disclose that just yet





You are correct, our kit places the turbo much lower than most other kits. As a result, your ultimate downpipe and ultimate dumptube will not fit. However, i expect your intake pipe and charge piping to both work.

Our design is for optimal flow in and out of the turbo, on both sides. In order for this design to fit existing downpipes and dumptubes, it would compromise the performance, and that is not something we are willing to do. Rather than simply upgrade the manifold on your kit, you may want to consider selling the kit as a whole once you see the complete kits w/ front mount intercooler and ultra-efficient charge piping.



what do you currently have, and what power are you currently making? Id like to take you up on the offer, assuming of course you arent going to make the jump to a T4 just yet

My rotated t3/t67 turbo also sits pretty low... and to get a 4" cone filter to fit, We had to relocate the coolant resovoir and flip the fuel rails...

Are the same modifications necessary with your manifold?

I know you don't want to disclose tubing inner diameters, but will the primaries be stepped?

I know you don't want to disclose tubing inner diameters, but will the primaries be stepped?

yes the primaries are stepped

My rotated t3/t67 turbo also sits pretty low... and to get a 4" cone filter to fit, We had to relocate the coolant resovoir and flip the fuel rails...

Are the same modifications necessary with your manifold?

i cant imagine needing to flip the fuel rails, but the coolant res will need to be moved

Not sure if anyone here will make it to Englishtown Raceway Park this weekend for the D1GP/NHRA Event, but we will be on display there and the STI manifold will also be there :)
I might be down there on Sunday, if so, I will def check this out.

Wow, amazing work!! Bump for updates.

to those that are going - try to take a bunch of pictures of the manifold for the rest of us!

Not sure if anyone here will make it to Englishtown Raceway Park this weekend for the D1GP/NHRA Event, but we will be on display there and the STI manifold will also be there :)

Did anyone make it out this weekend to this? If so did anybody take pics?

It looks pretty nice, but I'll stick to my Perrin. I loves mah Perrin!

^^ this guy is not in what we call the "know"

still waitng for the manifold.

come on geoff its enough :)

and also i have a suggestion from you. if you are going to you flexy in the manifold please be very careful. because i used all cusco,aps,borla,helix,gtspec vs manifolds and the which have flexies are all blown from the flexies;)

and also i have a suggestion from you. if you are going to you flexy in the manifold please be very careful. because i used all cusco,aps,borla,helix,gtspec vs manifolds and the which have flexies are all blown from the flexies;)

i love it when you say flexie lol..








full-race has nice shiz but they're prices are over the top! its not like they even do most of the work, its ROBOTIC TIG! lol wtf?!

full-race has nice shiz but they're prices are over the top! its not like they even do most of the work, its ROBOTIC TIG! lol wtf?!

I dunno if you're joking or not. But I'm pretty sure the Robotic TIG welder wasn't free or cheap.

I dunno if you're joking or not. But I'm pretty sure the Robotic TIG welder wasn't free or cheap.

yeh i understand that, but they've also been around for a long time and they sell more Honda stuff than idk who. They also have sold countless turbokits for Nissans as well.. so im sure most of that stuff is paid for already.

-alan

So will the twin-scroll uppipe work with a stock locale VF39? Also, would the twin-scroll uppipe require two EWGs?

How would a twin-scroll work with a single entry turbine housing like the VF39?

And true twin-scrolls should use separate wastegates IMO, but you could get away with a single if done right.

yeh i understand that, but they've also been around for a long time and they sell more Honda stuff than idk who. They also have sold countless turbokits for Nissans as well.. so im sure most of that stuff is paid for already.

-alan


There is A LOT of research and development time that goes into these products someone has to pay the engineers for their time, and good engineers dont come cheap.

To be twin scroll you need a divided turbine housing... If you use a single wastegate you are no longer twin scroll. The pipes leading off each phase will mix at the point of the flange on the external gate. This would allow the pulses to mix and negate any gains of seperate pulses to the turbine wheel.

Clark

To be twin scroll you need a divided turbine housing... If you use a single wastegate you are no longer twin scroll. The pipes leading off each phase will mix at the point of the flange on the external gate. This would allow the pulses to mix and negate any gains of seperate pulses to the turbine wheel.

Clark

Unless you do what APS did and put in a splitter that seals up to the Wastegate valve. then your pulses are devided unless the wastegate is open.

Yes. But then on boost its not twin scroll. Major power loss. Do it right or dont do it. I hate compromises.

C

still waitng for the manifold. come on geoff its enough :)

we're almost ready. pricing will be released this week :) thank you for your patience!


and also i have a suggestion from you. if you are going to you flexy in the manifold please be very careful. because i used all cusco,aps,borla,helix,gtspec vs manifolds and the which have flexies are all blown from the flexies;)

thank you for the heads up! The flexes we are using are very high quality, but as you have pointed out, they do have a possibility of failure. The initial manifolds are all going to have flexes on them for expansion and gasket sealing reasons, however if any of our customers have failures at the flex, we will repair the mainfolds, and eliminate the flex section, free of charge.

its not like they even do most of the work, its ROBOTIC TIG! lol wtf?!

did you think the robot just runs itself, builds manifolds and just spits them out? I assure you it does not! It requires a full-time trained robotic tig welding technician to run it, maintain it, and calibrate it. It is really just like a normal welder but takes any possibiity of human error out of the equation. The machine was not cheap to design (we designed it ourselves, as you can not purchase somthing like this) and certainly not cheap! Additionally, the manifolds are entirely hand built by expert fabricators. There is a reason no other manifolds look anything like ours!

So will the twin-scroll uppipe work with a stock locale VF39? Also, would the twin-scroll uppipe require two EWGs?

the twinscroll up pipe is available for the stock turbo. It is not available with two EWGs, only one EWG, which uses a true 100% divided wastegate runner.

How would a twin-scroll work with a single entry turbine housing like the VF39?

And true twin-scrolls should use separate wastegates IMO, but you could get away with a single if done right.

the single entry VF39 turbine housing is by definition single scroll. The manifold and up pipe are twinscroll, but to take full advantage of twinscroll the housing must also be twinscroll. That is why we so strongly recommend the garrett twinscroll 30R, 35R and 40R over any of the stock based turbos like the FPs or anything else. they really arent worth it as compared to the garrett

To be twin scroll you need a divided turbine housing... If you use a single wastegate you are no longer twin scroll. The pipes leading off each phase will mix at the point of the flange on the external gate. This would allow the pulses to mix and negate any gains of seperate pulses to the turbine wheel.

You make some great points, but are slightly incorrect on the single wastegate note. It is possible to completely divide the pulses with a single gate, and eliminate any mixing!

Unless you do what APS did and put in a splitter that seals up to the Wastegate valve. then your pulses are devided unless the wastegate is open.

thats one of the things they got right on their design :)

Yes. But then on boost its not twin scroll. Major power loss. Do it right or dont do it. I hate compromises.

on boost, when the wastegates are open, it doesnt matter what the wastegate tube is doing, its bypassing the turbine!



thanks for all the discussion guys!

Welp i guess I wasnt the only one to post this haha

we're almost ready. pricing will be released this week :) thank you for your patience!




thank you for the heads up! The flexes we are using are very high quality, but as you have pointed out, they do have a possibility of failure. The initial manifolds are all going to have flexes on them for expansion and gasket sealing reasons, however if any of our customers have failures at the flex, we will repair the mainfolds, and eliminate the flex section, free of charge.



did you think the robot just runs itself, builds manifolds and just spits them out? I assure you it does not! It requires a full-time trained robotic tig welding technician to run it, maintain it, and calibrate it. It is really just like a normal welder but takes any possibiity of human error out of the equation. The machine was not cheap to design (we designed it ourselves, as you can not purchase somthing like this) and certainly not cheap! Additionally, the manifolds are entirely hand built by expert fabricators. There is a reason no other manifolds look anything like ours!



the twinscroll up pipe is available for the stock turbo. It is not available with two EWGs, only one EWG, which uses a true 100% divided wastegate runner.



the single entry VF39 turbine housing is by definition single scroll. The manifold and up pipe are twinscroll, but to take full advantage of twinscroll the housing must also be twinscroll. That is why we so strongly recommend the garrett twinscroll 30R, 35R and 40R over any of the stock based turbos like the FPs or anything else. they really arent worth it as compared to the garrett



You make some great points, but are slightly incorrect on the single wastegate note. It is possible to completely divide the pulses with a single gate, and eliminate any mixing!



thats one of the things they got right on their design :)



on boost, when the wastegates are open, it doesnt matter what the wastegate tube is doing, its bypassing the turbine!



thanks for all the discussion guys!

Thanks for the helpful updates Geoff!

Full-Race Geoff
the material used for our manifolds is 8 gauge 316H. The thickness is 0.145"


First of all i want to thank you guys for the work you are doing .

Its great to see that finally a true high quality twin-scroll manifold in the market, and real quality materials are being used , I have never seen anyone using 316H specially in 8 gauge .

I`m very impressed that you guys are not cutting cost in the materials like many other companies that use 304ss and 321ss with a 16 gauge (no wonder they crack when coated and are driven hard)

All i can say that you guys will have a new custumer soon ;)

Ive had full-race kits on both of my hondas and they are the best!

i don't know if this has been answered, but do you dyno test your products?

If they don't, I will :)

Anyone thinking about this kit will be in very good hands... they are great designers and fabricators. My Evo is in there getting "similar" work done and I've seen a lot of their operation. Let me assure you they take the utmost pride and care in their work. This isn't a small office that comes up with a design, builds a prototype, and sends it to China to be produced. Everything is designed and built in the shop. The robotic welder is no joke and it shows in every one of their products... the repeatability of the bead is awesome. Glad to see you giving the Suby's some proper love. :)

Yes. But then on boost its not twin scroll. Major power loss. Do it right or dont do it. I hate compromises.

C

Could you explain this? Why would it matter? The gasses are venting, none of it is mixing and going back to the turbine.

Geoff,

Please consider a stock location manifold for EWG. Preferrably designed to plumb back.

If you do, I'll replace my header. I've got an APS with an EWG welded and plumbed back. The money I spent modding my header for an EWG is probably the same as your header will be.

Already replaced one cracked header. Reliability is a must for me.

Geoff,

Please consider a stock location manifold for EWG. Preferrably designed to plumb back.

If you do, I'll replace my header. I've got an APS with an EWG welded and plumbed back. The money I spent modding my header for an EWG is probably the same as your header will be.

Already replaced one cracked header. Reliability is a must for me.

I let jeff know earlier that we would be interested in a tial 44mm v band external wastegate option and he stated that they would have this option!

also definately interested in a v-band options for a 44mm Tial. i'm running the UR uppipe right now, and DO want to go rotated in the future, but ive never been overly impressed with any manifold i've EVER seen come out of a major company. Full-Race has had my attention for YEARS. we used one of their manifolds on a 240sx we built ~ 5 years ago that put down over 650whp on a GT40 (bored 2.0, 2.2L, forged everything + cams)


so we'd be able to run basically ANY t3 flanged turbo? (cause i'm a huge sucker for PTE turbos, goal on my old b13 was an SC61 and ~ 30psi on boost :devil:...)

Geoff or Clark,

In this thread

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1106146&page=7

Clark says "You have paired the wrong cyl's into the twin entry to the turbine housing" to fobiawrx. According to the pics provided by you (Geoff) of your manifold, it's paired the same way fobiawrx paired his. From all the manifolds that I've see their paired the same way fobiawrx and you (Geoff) have paird them. I dont understand why Clark is saying fobiawrx did it wrong, but didnt mention anything about it being paired wrong in this thread about your manifold.

Also for the intercooler piping, are you guys gonna reverse the intake manifold?

Gasp. Full Race Twin Scroll Header/UpPipe w/ Twin TiAL 44mm WasteGates (atmospheric dump :devil:) and TwinScroll GT3582R, Full Race 3" DownPipe. Full Race Big Ass FMIC and Rotated Intake Manifold. Oh my that would be fun.

Geoff or Clark,

In this thread

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1106146&page=7

Clark says "You have paired the wrong cyl's into the twin entry to the turbine housing" to fobiawrx. According to the pics provided by you (Geoff) of your manifold, it's paired the same way fobiawrx paired his. From all the manifolds that I've see their paired the same way fobiawrx and you (Geoff) have paird them. I dont understand why Clark is saying fobiawrx did it wrong, but didnt mention anything about it being paired wrong in this thread about your manifold.

Also for the intercooler piping, are you guys gonna reverse the intake manifold?

Clark has made it clear that he can't share what he is thinking or learned.
Subaru, ultimate racing, fobiawrx, and now full race are all doing it the same way.
There is alot of talent, R&D, and money wrap up here ^^^.

The facts:

Clarks twin scroll header, what ever it is, is not trapping higher than the boys down in PR using the ultimate header design.

Clark has not produced and sold his header design.

Typically if you find some unique and superior way to do stuff, you end up doing it the best and then sell the stuff. Clark has done neither.

very well said :lol:



Clark has made it clear that he can't share what he is thinking or learned.
Subaru, ultimate racing, fobiawrx, and now full race are all doing it the same way.
There is alot of talent, R&D, and money wrap up here ^^^.

The facts:

Clarks twin scroll header, what ever it is, is not trapping higher than the boys down in PR using the ultimate header design.

Clark has not produced and sold his header design.

Typically if you find some unique and superior way to do stuff, you end up doing it the best and then sell the stuff. Clark has done neither.

Wow. Someone finally making a turbo exhaust manifold out of something other than NA materials.

TwinScroll GT3582R

who makes this? Is this an off-the-shelf piece from Garrett?

who makes this? Is this an off-the-shelf piece from Garrett?

Yes, but I'm not sure it is an 82 hot side and i don't think they come in the 'R' ball bearing version but a twin scroll gt35 is an off the shelf Garrett turbo.

It's also a T3 flanged turbo and if you read Full-Race's posts, they will only be making a twinscroll for T4 flanges. I wouldn't be surprised if you could twist their arm / order a custom piece though...

Edit: never mind, you can get a gt35 with a T4 twin scroll
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GT35-84TRIM-118AR&Category_Code=GTNBB

pricing will be released this week :)

Bump for price!

t

i don't know if this has been answered, but do you dyno test your products?

absolutely. Every product we manufacture is thoroughly tested on real-world applications (both dyno and track) to get accurate data and results. Reputable, 3rd party Dyno results are on the way :)

I let jeff know earlier that we would be interested in a tial 44mm v band external wastegate option and he stated that they would have this option!

that is correct; the stock turbo up-pipes are available as an IWG setup for the stock based turbos, or with a 44mm EWG and dumptube as an upgrade. We will not offer the dump tube recirculating back to the downpipe, it is only available as a dump to atmosphere EWG configuration.

Gasp. Full Race Twin Scroll Header/UpPipe w/ Twin TiAL 44mm WasteGates (atmospheric dump :devil:) and TwinScroll GT3582R, Full Race 3" DownPipe. Full Race Big Ass FMIC and Rotated Intake Manifold. Oh my that would be fun.

we're working on it! We expect the complete kits with rotated intake mani charge pipes, Full-Race intercooler, oil lines, couplers/clamps and hardware to be ready mid to late summer.


According to the pics provided by you (Geoff) of your manifold, it's paired the same way fobiawrx paired his. From all the manifolds that I've see their paired the same way fobiawrx and you (Geoff) have paird them...Also for the intercooler piping, are you guys gonna reverse the intake manifold?

i checked the thread out a little bit, but im not sure that i agree with the odd cyl pairing. I havent read the whole thread (im super busy today) but i am confident that our design is sound. If there is power to be gained by changing to this firing order i would be very surprised.

also definately interested in a v-band options for a 44mm Tial. i'm running the UR uppipe right now, and DO want to go rotated in the future, but ive never been overly impressed with any manifold i've EVER seen come out of a major company. Full-Race has had my attention for YEARS. we used one of their manifolds on a 240sx we built ~ 5 years ago that put down over 650whp on a GT40 (bored 2.0, 2.2L, forged everything + cams) so we'd be able to run basically ANY t3 flanged turbo? (cause i'm a huge sucker for PTE turbos, goal on my old
b13 was an SC61 and ~ 30psi on boost :devil:...)

You can use almost any t3 flanged turbo with our rotated mount kit. There are some exceptions to this when using non-garrett T3 turbochargers but for the most part, any t3 4 bolt will work. I strongly recommend sticking with 100% garrett turbochargers. The PTE stuff is decent, but 100% garrett is the best way to go in my opinion. The garrett turbos use the best housings, the best wheels and the best center sections. Thats hard to beat! Thanks for your kind words tho, there arent too many SR20s out there making 650+!

who makes this? Is this an off-the-shelf piece from Garrett?

This turbocharger is a true GT3582R and uses only 100% garrett components. This particular turbocharger is not available from garrett north america, however. It is a custom turbocharger that is only available through us at Full-Race. Lead times are 3-5 weeks.

Yes, but I'm not sure it is an 82 hot side and i don't think they come in the 'R' ball bearing version but a twin scroll gt35 is an off the shelf Garrett turbo. It's also a T3 flanged turbo and if you read Full-Race's posts, they will only be making a twinscroll for T4 flanges. I wouldn't be surprised if you could twist their arm / order a custom piece though...Edit: never mind, you can get a gt35 with a T4 twin scroll
http://www.atpturbo.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GT35-84TRIM-118AR&Category_Code=GTNBB

Our T3 and T4 up pipes are ONLY available in twinscroll. A twinscroll T3 is a regular production item, not a special order item. The turbo you posted is the GT3571. It is not ball bearing, its not meant for a high performance application, and it does not have the 82mm compressor wheel. I strongly recommend not using that turbocharger for an STI!

Bump for price!

we are not advertising sponsors.

we are in production now. here are some pics of the first production Twinscroll T4/single 44 manifold and uppipe (ideal for a GT40R on a built motor)

http://full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/productionT4/STImani-1.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/productionT4/STI40R-44up-2.jpg

Man, that's flippin' nice! I've always admired, respected, and drooled over all the Honda/Acura products over the years, and now that they're involved in Subaru I can't wait to see what comes out of that shop! Makes me want to sink thousands and thousands more dollars into my Wagon...maybe later. :)

1) back purge -- YES!!! our welds are always purged whether its a charge pipe, a downpipe or a manifold -- If you want a steel to live in a high temperature, high vibration, and high oxidation (on both sides) environment and not crack, there must not be any imperfections or microscopic cracks that are just waiting to propagate, and the material must be rock solid. Cracks can and will grow when given the chance (high vib/temp/heat). On a turbo car, a cracked manifold can lose anywhere from 80-200whp/wtq.


looks great and I can't wait for it to be fully released, but quick question: I know you guys back purge the welds but what about the tack welds ? and do you guys do multiple passes or just one single root pass ?
also I've always wondered why do all of your manifolds beads look bronzish in color as compared to other manifold manufacturers that look bluish/gold ? thanks in advance

http://full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/productionT4/STImani-1.jpg

http://www.full-race.com/prototype2/subaru/productionT4/STI40R-44up-2.jpg

My god.:eek:

Since you said your Manifolds are Equal Pressure Drop but not Equal Length, do we lose the Boxer Rumble?

boo for nazioc mods...I wanted to see the price :(

Nice looking product tho...do you have a pic of the uppipe for stock location turbos?

I would love to keep the boxer sound. I cannot wait for this piece to be available!

boo for nazioc mods...I wanted to see the price :( Are YOU trying to get this thread deleted? Respect the rules or DO NOT PARTICIPATE.

My god.:eek:

Since you said your Manifolds are Equal Pressure Drop but not Equal Length, do we lose the Boxer Rumble?

I also want to know the answer to this question. Boxer Rumble = :D

sorry to cause such a stir, we'll work on becoming vendors.

In the meantime, if anyone has any questions please email me at geoff@full-race.com so as not to tie up the forum. thank you!

Bump for a hopefully new vendor.

im working on it!

Will there be an option for an EGT bung? Sorry if I've missed mention of it somewhere in this thread. The headers looks so damn nice I wouldn't want anyone else drilling and welding on it.

Oh yeah, and anybody that's crying about price, if these are priced less than 1500, they'll be a steal. GP Moto wants 1200 (http://www.gpmototech.com/msrp.htm)for their rotated twin scroll header, and it looks to be no where near as nice and definitely not as strong. So anybody crying about price can DIAF:devil:

The headers are around (A APS 3.5" TurboBack), the UpPipes, depending on the option you want, are (An Invidia N1 Flex CatBack)-(Cusco 6-point Bolt In Cage)

You can find the prices for the items I posted above on RallySportDirect.

There is a thread on IWSTI with pricing and more pics.

Oh yeah, and anybody that's crying about price, if these are priced less than 1500, they'll be a steal. GP Moto wants 1200 (http://www.gpmototech.com/msrp.htm)for their rotated twin scroll header, and it looks to be no where near as nice and definitely not as strong. So anybody crying about price can DIAF:devil:

I got prcing from Full-Race email Lloyd@full-race.com

I'm not quite sure what I can post, but if your eager then you have probably already contacted Full-Race anyways and if your just thinking about it then I'm sure it'll be on their page shortly.

The headers are around (A APS 3.5" TurboBack), the UpPipes, depending on the option you want, are (An Invidia N1 Flex CatBack)-(Cusco 6-point Bolt In Cage)

You can find the prices for the items I posted above on RallySportDirect.

There is a thread on IWSTI with pricing and more pics.

That is not a bad price at all!

The price for the Rotated 3" Catless DownPipe is in the middle of the UpPipe Options.

See, now people know what they cost and FR didn't have to break any nasioc rules :)

The headers are around (A APS 3.5" TurboBack), the UpPipes, depending on the option you want, are (An Invidia N1 Flex CatBack)-(Cusco 6-point Bolt In Cage)

You can find the prices for the items I posted above on RallySportDirect.

There is a thread on IWSTI with pricing and more pics.

Will the Up-Pipes with external gate flanges include an exhaust dump for the wastegate?

that was so hard... lol

I have a headache.

I would love to keep the boxer sound. I cannot wait for this piece to be available!

If you want to keep the boxer sound, this is not the product for you, or any equal length manifold for that matter. You have different goals than they do... these manifolds are designed to make the most power possible from the most optimal design, you just want it to sound neat.

If you want to keep the boxer sound, this is not the product for you, or any equal length manifold for that matter. You have different goals than they do... these manifolds are designed to make the most power possible from the most optimal design, you just want it to sound neat.

But according to Full Race these are *NOT* Equal Lenght.

But according to Full Race these are *NOT* Equal Lenght.

Correct, Geoff clearly said that these are equal pressure drop and that that does not necessarily correlate to equal length.

designing around "equal length" according to a tape measure is meaningless, the proper way to design a manifold is according to the pressure drop from the head port to the turbine inlet. Rather than match lengths, you want to match pressure drops.

But according to Full Race these are *NOT* Equal Lenght.

Correct, they are equal pulse, so the exhaust pulses will merge and arrive at the turbo at the same time, eliminating the boxer sound, the sound you hear is created by un equal exhaust pulses if you equal them out than it will eliminate the sound.

in short, you will loose the boxer sound, but you will gain power, take your pick.

Will the Up-Pipes with external gate flanges include an exhaust dump for the wastegate?

IDK but the price jump from the UpPipe for the Stock Turbo to the UpPipe for hte Stock Turbo with an EWG is about (A set of Ferodo DS2500 STi Pads)

I will deff get the stock turbo up-pipe with external gate.

I wanna see 50whp out of these.........

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the GT35R with the split T4 housing will be the new hot setup.

Call me impressed - I thought they were going to try and stuff the 35R's junk inside the 32's twin inlet like some other places...cough ATP...cough. But check out their site....this 35r looks like the real deal. This thing just might fill the gap between the regular 40r/t04z and the off the shelf 35r.

Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go rob a bank...

Will there be an option for an EGT bung? Sorry if I've missed mention of it somewhere in this thread. The headers looks so damn nice I wouldn't want anyone else drilling and welding on it.

EGT bungs are available. Just make sure you tell us when you place your order exactly what port and where you want the bung to go, we can take care of doing it right

The headers are around (A APS 3.5" TurboBack), the UpPipes, depending on the option you want, are (An Invidia N1 Flex CatBack)-(Cusco 6-point Bolt In Cage)

rally sport direct must love you!! haha

See, now people know what they cost and FR didn't have to break any nasioc rules :)

as of june 1st we wont be breaking the rules anymore!

I wanna see 50whp out of these.........

We have our first stock turbo customer with an FPgreen and APS downpipe/intercooler going to Agile Automotive next week for tuning. The installation went well, no surprises or problems.

I expect to see significant power gains as they will dyno this manifold and up pipe vs stock. I expect this to be in the neighborhood of 35-45whp.

If you want to see huge gains (100+whp) that will be easily done by dynoing our setup vs something like a stock manifold with an aftermarket t3 or t4 up pipe. The stock turbo really doesnt allow the manifold to work to its potential becuase it is essentially a single scroll turbine

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the GT35R with the split T4 housing will be the new hot setup.

Call me impressed - I thought they were going to try and stuff the 35R's junk inside the 32's twin inlet like some other places...cough ATP...cough. But check out their site....this 35r looks like the real deal. This thing just might fill the gap between the regular 40r/t04z and the off the shelf 35r.

I would love to agree with you, but the current holdup with the twinscroll 35R turbochargers is due to the rarity of the turbine housing. There just arent very many of these in the world, as we have a very hard time obtaining them

EDIT: WE CAN CONSISTENTLY SOURCE THE TWINSCROLL 35R now!!

rally sport direct must love you!! haha

Haha I was already there and thought "Hmm..I must figure a way to get these people prices without getting Geoff in trouble!" :lol:

the test car is at agile automotive. the APS tune required quite a bit more fuel to even drive, so far good news :)

the test car is at agile automotive. the APS tune required quite a bit more fuel to even drive, so far good news :)
can you tell us anything about the test car in advance? Extensive mod list would be cool.

Here's the test car:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1266405

Unfortunately that^^^^^^^^^^ thread is now locked. I'll post up results as soon as I can find them! Or if anyone else finds the results, please show or leave a link on this post.
Thanks!

The locked thread links back here, so hopefully the results will be posted here.

It's my car and here are my current mods:

2006 STI
• FP Green Turbo
• Cobb Turbo back Exhaust
• Cobb AccessPORT ProTuned by Agile Auto
• APS Turbo Inlet
• APS CAI
• APS DR525 FMIC
• Helix 860cc Injectors
• Go Fast Bits Hybrid BOV
• Snow Performance Water/Meth (50/50) Injection Kit w/Safe Injection + Wastegate Solenoid Upgrade
• Spec C 12l Intercooler (Water/Meth) Spray Tank
• TurboSmart E-Boost controller
• One Step Colder Spark Plugs
• HKS DLI II
• Walbro Fuel Pump
• Exedy Twin Plate Clutch

PPhilthy,
What was the sound like?

It's my car and here are my current mods:

2006 STI
• FP Green Turbo
• Cobb Turbo back Exhaust
• Cobb AccessPORT ProTuned by Agile Auto
• APS Turbo Inlet
• APS CAI
• APS DR525 FMIC
• Helix 860cc Injectors
• Go Fast Bits Hybrid BOV
• Snow Performance Water/Meth (50/50) Injection Kit w/Safe Injection + Wastegate Solenoid Upgrade
• Spec C 12l Intercooler (Water/Meth) Spray Tank
• TurboSmart E-Boost controller
• One Step Colder Spark Plugs
• HKS DLI II
• Walbro Fuel Pump
• Exedy Twin Plate Clutch
wow - that's a nice test bed for sure.

The cool thing would be if you run out of fuel (maybe not cool for you...but you know) :devil:

How will the comparison be made (if any) to your last header/up-pipe combo?

PPhilthy,
What was the sound like?

I kept the car out of boost and high revs - at idle and crusing speeds the best way that I can discribe the sound was like the APS header only three notes deeper...

wow - that's a nice test bed for sure.

The cool thing would be if you run out of fuel (maybe not cool for you...but you know) :devil:

How will the comparison be made (if any) to your last header/up-pipe combo?


It would be optimistic to think their would be a fuel issue with only a FP Green but it would be cool and I'll have Hill install a twin pump ASAP if that happens :D

I would have loved to have a direct (same day) comparison to the APS header, but wouldn't you know it - the one I have is cracked!

t would be optimistic to think their would be a fuel issue with only a FP Green but it would be cool and I'll have Hill install a twin pump ASAP if that happens

cool. i'm just going by the 40+ HP figure that Full Race expects out of the change - that extra HP takes extra fuel. It's a good problem to have!

cool. i'm just going by the 40+ HP figure that Full Race expects out of the change - that extra HP takes extra fuel. It's a good problem to have!

Yes, I would love to have that problem... I thought the 40+hp that Full Race stated was vs stock manifold and moderate-to-small turbo - and a 100+hp on a big turbo :confused: