when you are taking a corner and you are at 4th gear, the corner needs 2nd gear to turn, do you do heel/toe from 4th to 3rd to 2nd OR you nail the brake then just before the turn you heel toe into 2nd? and skip the 3rd gear heel/toe????? which one will give you a better lap time?

The method you personally are most comfortable with will give you your lowest laptime.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.garysheehan.com

I don't have any racing experience I find 4th to 2nd to be much quicker; especially if you're running nice brakes; utilize them! :)

the proper way is 4th 3rd to 2nd but make sure to hit your breaking point just right.

but going from 4-3-2 won't it be slower then nailing the brake at 4th and just heel/toe to 2nd as you turning into corner?

Just for the sake of argument, if I were doing 100mph in 5th approaching a square right, I would be on line, car in 5th, hit the braking point, brake HARD, wait for speed to drop to 50mph, clutch in, neutral, clutch out, heel-toe a BIG LONG blip (cause of how the DBW is retarded when the car is in neutral), clutch out, into 2nd, clutch in (possibly with a smaller heel-toe throttle blip if necessary), off the throttle, reach turn in speed and point, turn in while backing off brakes as I turn more and more, then once I get to no brakes start rolling into the the throttle to neutral-to-slightly-positive throttle, apex, then roll into the gas as I roll out of steering.

For me, that downshift timing and technique is very much related to how I corner. Due to the way I drive and how my car is easiest to drive, I do the downshift as part of the braking so that I'm ready to go to positive throttle as soon as I'm off the brakes. The double clutching is the only way I've found to get that large of downshifts done without upsetting the car or having to separate the downshift and the braking into two different stages, which was WAY slower. That's largely predicated that my car turns in better slightly on the brakes and is most neutral through the steady-state of the corner on slightly positive throttle.

If I didn't double clutch, I think I would be inclined to come down 5-4-3-2 to make that rather than jumping 5->2.

but going from 4-3-2 won't it be slower then nailing the brake at 4th and just heel/toe to 2nd as you turning into corner?

If you shift faster than you brake then it doesn't matter.
If you can't then do the 4 to 2.

The method you personally are most comfortable with will give you your lowest laptime.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.garysheehan.com

Listen to this guy. :)

Just for the sake of argument, if I were doing 100mph in 5th approaching a square right, I would be on line, car in 5th, hit the braking point, brake HARD, wait for speed to drop to 50mph, clutch in, neutral, clutch out, heel-toe a BIG LONG blip (cause of how the DBW is retarded when the car is in neutral), clutch out, into 2nd, clutch in (possibly with a smaller heel-toe throttle blip if necessary), off the throttle, reach turn in speed and point, turn in while backing off brakes as I turn more and more, then once I get to no brakes start rolling into the the throttle to neutral-to-slightly-positive throttle, apex, then roll into the gas as I roll out of steering.

For me, that downshift timing and technique is very much related to how I corner. Due to the way I drive and how my car is easiest to drive, I do the downshift as part of the braking so that I'm ready to go to positive throttle as soon as I'm off the brakes. The double clutching is the only way I've found to get that large of downshifts done without upsetting the car or having to separate the downshift and the braking into two different stages, which was WAY slower. That's largely predicated that my car turns in better slightly on the brakes and is most neutral through the steady-state of the corner on slightly positive throttle.

If I didn't double clutch, I think I would be inclined to come down 5-4-3-2 to make that rather than jumping 5->2.

A question since we have the same car, why would you be in 5th gear at 100MPH? That is almost squarely in the prime power band although quickly approaching redline. There is still speed and acceleration left there that you may be wasting by going from 4th to 5th.

I am assuming you are talking about on the track, right?

I personally would go from 4th -> 2nd.

I personally would go from 4th -> 2nd.

+1. IMO you're just wasting energy, the possibility of a botched shift, and tranny wear by doing extra downshifts. If your equipment will let you smoothly go from 4th to 2nd with a nice heel-toe downshift, I'd do it. Of course, that's just my opinion, and what I do on the track.

+1. IMO you're just wasting energy, the possibility of a botched shift, and tranny wear by doing extra downshifts. If your equipment will let you smoothly go from 4th to 2nd with a nice heel-toe downshift, I'd do it. Of course, that's just my opinion, and what I do on the track.

Yeah. At VIR Full I go from 6th -> 4th going into the Roller Coaster. Much smoother than trying to go 6th -> -5th -> 4th.

On Pavement - listen to Gary.

On Dirt (Rally) - Brake trumps Clutch and Clutch trumps Gas.
Meaning you need to have the brakes on the entire time you are slowing the car - to keep the weight on the front of the car. You should not let the down shift do any of the 'slowing' - it's all brakes.

but going from 4-3-2 won't it be slower then nailing the brake at 4th and just heel/toe to 2nd as you turning into corner?
No. In these cars, there is enough time during the braking event to leisurely double-clutch downshift 4-3-2. It doesn't lengthen the braking event.

If you shift from 4-2, you still have to brake for the same amount of time. You've just completed the downshifting in less time, with the added risk of not matching revs properly because of the larger ratio jump from 4-2 instead of 4-3-2.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.garysheehan.com

Yes. One thing I am aware of when doing the "skip a gear" method is to do the the downshift/throttle blip later in the braking event so as not to over-rev the engine. And remember, I'm just doing track days, no racing here. Not saying it's the best way, just what I'm comfortable with.

A question since we have the same car, why would you be in 5th gear at 100MPH? That is almost squarely in the prime power band although quickly approaching redline. There is still speed and acceleration left there that you may be wasting by going from 4th to 5th.

I am assuming you are talking about on the track, right?

Honestly, I just blew a speed out of my ass. I wasn't really putting too much effort into making that part of it realistic.

No. In these cars, there is enough time during the braking event to leisurely double-clutch downshift 4-3-2. It doesn't lengthen the braking event.

If you shift from 4-2, you still have to brake for the same amount of time. You've just completed the downshifting in less time, with the added risk of not matching revs properly because of the larger ratio jump from 4-2 instead of 4-3-2.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.garysheehan.com

In my Formual Continental, I go 4-3-2. There is enough time to accomplish it and I do a better job matching the revs. Going from 4-2 just gets me out of rhythym.

I've know people who do both and are very fast. I prefer consistently going down the gears. And once you get to some faster racecars, many are going to sequential so you have no choice but grab all the gears.

I go through all the gears as it is easier to match revs and a little easier on my brakes, but if you have better luck with going 4-2 then keep at it.

I go through all the gears as it is easier to match revs and a little easier on my brakes, but if you have better luck with going 4-2 then keep at it.


How is it easier on the brakes? Are you actully doing engine braking? I tried to avoid that, but again, it's just track time for me. I can replace brakes. Replacing an engine and/or tranny is a little more worrisome since I still have to drive home. :)

How is it easier on the brakes? Are you actully doing engine braking? I tried to avoid that, but again, it's just track time for me. I can replace brakes. Replacing an engine and/or tranny is a little more worrisome since I still have to drive home. :)

The engine can account for up to 5% of the braking. Not much but still a little bit and in enduros where brakes are used for such a long time it can help, especially in teh heavier cars which eat up brakes.

The engine can account for up to 5% of the braking. Not much but still a little bit and in enduros where brakes are used for such a long time it can help, especially in teh heavier cars which eat up brakes.

Interesting. :)

The engine can account for up to 5% of the braking. Not much but still a little bit and in enduros where brakes are used for such a long time it can help, especially in teh heavier cars which eat up brakes.


while this may be true its an 8+ hour job to do a clutch on my 944 (yea it sucks) there is no way I'll use the engine to slow the car for more than a split second. Brakes are always cheaper than a clutch.

Personally i dont skip gears down shifting, nor do i engage each gear as i go though them. I simply like the rhythm of shifting from 5 > 4 > 3. Is it quicker? i have no idea, but i like it and I've been doing it for some time and it works for me. I've been in cars where people skip gears and it works for them.

The engine does a slight bit of the braking going 4-3-2, but I am more concerned about cooking my brakes than using the clutch one more time in a corner. Maybe it is time to go up to a BBK. The other thing for me is that it is a lot smoother for me and easier to match the revs. Then again, all the racecars I watch at Road America go through all the gears when they downshift so maybe there is something to this after all.

The majority of racecars have sequential boxes where you HAVE to go 4-3-2 wither you want to or not. In the classes where there are H-boxes, the drivers are probably still used to sequential boxes.

The majority of racecars have sequential boxes where you HAVE to go 4-3-2 wither you want to or not.

I'm not sure about the majority...the majority of race cars are club cars running a street transmission. Even in Pro stuff not everything is sequential (there are H-patterns in World Challenge, Koni Challenge, Rolex, and the BMW's that ran in ALMS were H-pattern as well).

I prefer to hit each gear on the way down, some don't. I've come from Formula cars where shifts are made without the clutch, so it's easier to hit each gear.

Um, engine braking doesn't wear your clutch unless you are doing it wrong. You aren't using the clutch to pull the motor up to transmission speed, you're using engine compression after the clutch is engaged to help with braking.

The engine does a slight bit of the braking going 4-3-2, but I am more concerned about cooking my brakes than using the clutch one more time in a corner. Maybe it is time to go up to a BBK. The other thing for me is that it is a lot smoother for me and easier to match the revs. Then again, all the racecars I watch at Road America go through all the gears when they downshift so maybe there is something to this after all.

The amount of braking done by the engine should be very negligible compared to brakes. I prefer going through all the gears because I find its easier to match revs. I'm almost always off jumping from 4 to 2.

The amount of braking done by the engine should be very negligible compared to brakes. I prefer going through all the gears because I find its easier to match revs. I'm almost always off jumping from 4 to 2.

Should be negligible however in non-purpose built racecars that experience brakefade the amount of braking that is done by the engine becomes more important. Since most people here drive 3000+ pound cars with dinky little brakes it does help a bit.

That being said, there are those who are all about using the mantra "do as little as possible while in the car" Skip shifting falls under that category.

But going back to what Gary said, whatever is most comfortable for you will often times give you back the best lap times.