I'm just curious about how often do people see cheating occurring at autocross. At one of the local autocrosses this month, I saw blatant cheating such as ESP cars in STX, STX/STU cars in DS and etc. While it shouldn't really matter in the overall picture as it wasn't for points for ProSolo or there wasn't prize money (unless you count the $5 plaque/trinket trophy), it does ruin the spirit of the sport.

How about bringing it to the organizers attention?

You hear all the time 'at local events, it doesn't matter anyways.' right?

Well, your post is the exact reason why some regions are stricter than others.



--kC

Don't worry, I'm sure the Auto-X Rule Weenies will report them. :p

How about bringing it to the organizers attention?

You hear all the time 'at local events, it doesn't matter anyways.' right?

Well, your post is the exact reason why some regions are stricter than others.



--kC

Mmm, explain your experiences please. Your 2nd line was kinda vague.

I would have brought it to the organizers' attention, but I soundly beat the cheaters in my class, so I didn't care. :p But for the other classes, I pitied them. If points or prize money was involved, I'd definitely would have brought it up.

Oh yeah, and my original post wasn't a complaint. Just curious about how often it occurs.

At a local level you've got a whole gaggle of different types. Most people who are in the wrong class don't actually realize they are mis-classed. This is sometimes because they were told incorrectly at registration what class they should be in (often because the "Are you stock?" question seems to be a tough one for the average ricer). Sometimes people know they aren't elligible for the class and run there with an understanding with their competitors that they are all just running for fun and they want some competition. And rarely, at least in most regions, you've got someone who knows they are illegal, has been asked to run the appropriate class, and runs the wrong class anyways because they are an ass. If you've got a problem with it bring it to the attention of those who are running the event, mentioning it here does nothing at all, especially when we don't even know what region you ran with.

As an event organizer I always make it a point to talk to the people who I can recognize are in the wrong class to ask that they either OK it with all of their competitors or change their class for the next event. Usually this isn't a problem, people honestly didn't know, but occasionally I get some argument. Argue with me enough and you don't get to come back, we won't miss you. Many regions won't have someone official do that though unless there is a complaint, it's officially up to the competitors to police their classes.

Ah, so it's mostly just the first-timers/n00bs/ricers who take a liberal definition of the word "stock" as oppose to the SCCA definition. That explains the ST cars in stock classes, but not the SP cars in ST or stock classes. I guess that'd fit your "ass" definition though.

I will go on record here saying...that cheaters...will get it in the end...
Locally it makes no difference...really...unless the 'cheater' is running for points in a class..is knowingly doing just to win a class...then that is wrong...IMO..Bad habits start at local level..and progresses to the top levels...

to me, its like a kid..who hasn't had correct parenting...then when its time..the kid has an attitude and nothing you say or do will change that...

Its the same thing...then when that person gets caught doing something...at a local level..it should be nipped in bud right then and there...not just let him slide...

Bill

I've been cheating all year!!! I didn't know it due to running a car I didn't build. It had an ALK on it and I have been running in SM at every event, simply because I was told it was an SM car.
In any case, I agree with others who have posted that some newbies don't really know the sport, nor their mods list enough to get in the right class. Also, it could be noted that during tech some mods might come up and then changes could be made.

I would also like to point out that maybe you or those who spot the person at fault can bring it up to that offenders attention and "educate" them to what class is correct for them and help them grow in the sport. Scolding someone for being in the wrong class or accusations of "cheating" can rub someone the wrong way. If the approach taken is to provide knowledge then not only does the sport grow, but the you just might make another friend.

Just some random thoughts as I read through the post. I would like to add that I've since removed the ALK and added the interior per SM rules...;)

I didn't know what class to go into. I just ran an autocross for the hell of it. Based on the stock class for my car I thought I was supposed to be in ESP, but I guess that is wrong. Too confusing. Hopefully I didn't screw anybody too bad because I won my class.

I would also like to point out that maybe you or those who spot the person at fault can bring it up to that offenders attention and "educate" them to what class is correct for them and help them grow in the sport. Scolding someone for being in the wrong class or accusations of "cheating" can rub someone the wrong way. If the approach taken is to provide knowledge then not only does the sport grow, but the you just might make another friend.

Trust me, I tried to tell someone about the rules, and the person became irate. I think the driver was just mad that his STU car got beat by pretty much the entire DS class. :lol:

Misclassed cars all start with Novice. A lot of novice just register for stock, stx sts etc because there novice and no one cares, then once they get out of novice they keep there car classed wrong. In my region there isn't a whole lot of competition, the local guys own pretty much each class, so even missed class cars don't win. I don't know how I would react if someone was beating me and I knew they were not supposed to be in my class.

At the local level, I much sooner just approach the owner of the car and discuss the matter with him or her. Let them know the rules in case they aren't aware.

9 times out of 10, this seems to solve the problem.

Trust me, I tried to tell someone about the rules, and the person became irate. I think the driver was just mad that his STU car got beat by pretty much the entire DS class. :lol:


Sometimes it also depends on how you bring it up to them as well. Some people come off very harsh and can bring out a defensive attitude in many people. I have brought it up to many people when doing tech, chairing a event or just in grid about their car and where it belongs. Only once has someone not been understanding and kinda shrugged it off. Once some real competitors came to run in this class (SS - Z06 had no passenger seat, intake, aftermarket rotors) he entered his correct class.

Had a 05 S2K in my stock class last event. Had stock wheels, hoosiers and carbon fiber hood, trunk, sideview mirrors and he could not believe those things took him out. I did not care about it for this event as I knew he had no chance, but advised him for future ones.

Sometimes it also depends on how you bring it up to them as well. Some people come off very harsh and can bring out a defensive attitude in many people. I have brought it up to many people when doing tech, chairing a event or just in grid about their car and where it belongs. Only once has someone not been understanding and kinda shrugged it off. Once some real competitors came to run in this class (SS - Z06 had no passenger seat, intake, aftermarket rotors) he entered his correct class.

Had a 05 S2K in my stock class last event. Had stock wheels, hoosiers and carbon fiber hood, trunk, sideview mirrors and he could not believe those things took him out. I did not care about it for this event as I knew he had no chance, but advised him for future ones.

ding.....winner

ding.....winner

Agreed. I've brought it up to people before and they are generally accepting.

Actually I want to get one of those t-shirts that says "Go ahead and cheat, it's not going to help you at this point anyway."

DM

How about bringing it to the organizers attention?

You hear all the time 'at local events, it doesn't matter anyways.' right?

Well, your post is the exact reason why some regions are stricter than others.

--kC

I hate hearing this. I hear it as much from Noobs to people who really do know better as from more experienced people. I'd say I see it about 1 out of 3 events, and I probably miss it more than I catch it.

I run XP in a very much under prepared car due to weight restriction changes in the class I used to run. I don't complain, I'm just there to have fun. I have further modded my car to be slightly better prepped in XP, but am still way behind the top guys in SM. I still run XP because that's where my car belongs.

In our region, its up to the competitors to police others in their class. If I see someone that is running in the wrong class I'll usually point it out to them. However, I'm not actively looking for cars that are incorrectly classed.

I'd say 95% of the "cheaters" at our local events are noobs that don't know they are classed wrong. Usually if we tell them then they're like "Oh, I didn't know" and they run the correct class at the next event.

I hate hearing this. I hear it as much from Noobs to people who really do know better as from more experienced people. I'd say I see it about 1 out of 3 events, and I probably miss it more than I catch it.
I get ripped a new one on various forums when I have tried telling people that they should run in the correct class... I just gave up. It's not hard.. if you're just in it for the fun of it, it shouldn't matter what class you're in. Run the right one because when you run the wrong one, you're taking away the fun from someone that IS legal per the rules.

--kC

Sometimes people run the wrong class because what they view to be bling mods (ie big wheels, CF hood/trunk, etc) are viewed as peformance enhancing mods by the SCCA. The rules themselves can also be confusing when you try to read through them.

Just to clarify, the new rules allow changes to boost via the AP for ESP when it says that mechancial or electrical boost control systems for turbo charged engines may be altered and the resulting boost changes are allowed....correct?

Had a 05 S2K in my stock class last event. Had stock wheels, hoosiers and carbon fiber hood, trunk, sideview mirrors and he could not believe those things took him out. I did not care about it for this event as I knew he had no chance, but advised him for future ones.

Was it silver? I had the same thing happen in BSP last year locally, I laid the smack down and it's not worth my time while trying to help run an event to police him. If he beat me and the car was illegal I'd rather just dish out the $20-$30 protest fee, and then they get the point when they get DQ'd or moved in the results to the appropriate class.

On another note I finally got in the limited wing, there is a part number that is un-painted for anyone interested and it comes with the 3rd brake light housing, sweet, painted it flat black. I will try to post the PN tonight in the "limited spoiler in BSP" thread..


KC
Review Crew
My Zoints Profile

^ review crew....lol

I work tech fairly regularly for our region and I've noticed that nearly 100% of the time it's simply a case of people being new to the sport and not understanding how the rules work. For the most part I just visit with them a little and give them a quick explanation of which mod they did puts them in whatever class and they're cool with it.

However, being on the small end of a medium region like we are, most of us are willing to allow slight allowances on the rules in certain circumstances just to get other people in our class to run against. I'm usually about the only one in STX, so for example, I'll tech a BMW 3 series with 8.5" wheels, tell him which class he's SUPPOSED to be in but that I don't mind him running locally in STX.

Now the thing that gets me is, last weekend I ran down in another region that typically has a decent sized STX class that has been won by the same 240SX all this year and most of last year. First thing I see when I get down there is the CF hood on the thing. I would think that one of the other regular competitors would have said something about by now. Didn't bother me any, even driving like crap I ended up finishing 2 seconds ahead of anyone else in the class (well, only 1 second over my co driver). Oh well, I guess everone down there wants to let him run in STX it's their perogative...

I would agree that most of the time its a novice driver that doesn't fully understand classing. Those same folks are pretty receptive to change when its brought up properly.
The question is, how many people knowingly cheat?

You also have folks who are hyper-concerned about the rules. I know I tend to look into the rules before I buy a certain part for my car. On top of that compulsive disorder...I have to worry about the rules for 3 different organizations. My club has its own autocross rules. I still concern myself with scca rules(of which I might attend 3 events that use those rules). Then there are the hillclimb rules(which I haven't run since the mini broke).

I know I'd feel like an ass if I realized I was misclassed. I was surprised to find I was misclassed last fall on some reported results(in D-stock, not stx) despite filling out my registration as STX(granted i'm not fully prepped to take advantage of stx). It ultimately would have dropped my one spot. I would have flip flopped with another competitor. I emailed the event chair, as I didn't want to affect anyone's points, seeing as how I was a guest with that club. The results were never changed.

I just find it kind of sad that some folks would intentionally cheat.

i am not SM legal but i don't win so it not an issue
(severely under weight with crossmember change)

I debadged my trunk, which throws me out of ESP. :(


Back on topic, Mechie3, boost is open in ESP. A tune that changes it of a MBC or EBC is just fine.

I debadged my trunk, which throws me out of ESP. :(


Back on topic, Mechie3, boost is open in ESP. A tune that changes it of a MBC or EBC is just fine.



Glue some magnets onto your SUBARU badges and throw them on the car if it bothers you that much. :) That is what I did in case of a weeny protest.

Glue some magnets onto your SUBARU badges and throw them on the car if it bothers you that much. :) That is what I did in case of a weeny protest.

I don't have them anymore, and honestly, I don't care. :) The biggest event I'm doing this year will be the NE Divisional so we'll see if anyone even notices, let alone cares about them.

Considering debadging is ST* legal, and SP* is supposed to "inherit" the ST rules (and build upon them), it would be ridiculous if a emblem deficiency protest is upheld.

Karen

real cheating is to have an EMP installed on your car, then you can set it off when your in one of those tight spots, and everyones ecus will be shut off or fried and ding ding, winnar!

I've never autocrossed before, but why do trunk badges determine classing? Too much weight reduction? :lol:

Snitches get stitches.






















;)

I've never autocrossed before, but why do trunk badges determine classing? Too much weight reduction? :lol:

Was mentioned in another thread but 2 main reasons:
1) Back when the rules were made, and cars were all heavy steel (instead of plastics today), badging was worth 2 pounds
2) No internet meant it was harder to have the knowledge to distinguish various models of various brands (ie Camaro RS vs. Camaro SS)

The rule is probably going to be done away with sooner than later.

I sandbag ALL of my runs, is that cheating ;)

i am not SM legal but i don't win so it not an issue
(severely under weight with crossmember change)

And you'd be one of the people that KC and many of us have a problem with. If it's just for fun why not run the class you're legal in, even if it turns out to be AM? Why not run FP\XP where your car would probably be legal? I'd guess you're beating at least one person who -IS- SM legal at each event if you've got any talent at all and that person wouldn't be a happy camper if they knew that you knew you were illegal for the class and that you were running it anyways.

For local events where Jen and I help organize and Jen is chief of timing and scoring I know we've taken to just changing the results to move people to the appropriate classes where they are easily identified. In each case I've spoken to the person to let them know that they need to move themselves to the appropriate class for the next event and have usually gotten a positive response. At the last event she was actually able to do some of this before the trophy presentation which prevented the win in STS from being awarded to the RX-8 that someone had told the owner was an STS car. It didn't matter to the RX-8 guy (he won STU as well), but it sure seemed to matter to the guy who ended up 3rd in STS and would have been 4th and out of the trophies that he got to get a shot glass to take home for his 3rd place finish. Many of us don't give a crap about the little local trophies but a lot of people do, that little trophy that I don't even bother to take anymore means a lot to someone who is new to the sport.

And you'd be one of the people that KC and many of us have a problem with. If it's just for fun why not run the class you're legal in, even if it turns out to be AM? Why not run FP\XP where your car would probably be legal? I'd guess you're beating at least one person who -IS- SM legal at each event if you've got any talent at all and that person wouldn't be a happy camper if they knew that you knew you were illegal for the class and that you were running it anyways.

For local events where Jen and I help organize and Jen is chief of timing and scoring I know we've taken to just changing the results to move people to the appropriate classes where they are easily identified. In each case I've spoken to the person to let them know that they need to move themselves to the appropriate class for the next event and have usually gotten a positive response. At the last event she was actually able to do some of this before the trophy presentation which prevented the win in STS from being awarded to the RX-8 that someone had told the owner was an STS car. It didn't matter to the RX-8 guy (he won STU as well), but it sure seemed to matter to the guy who ended up 3rd in STS and would have been 4th and out of the trophies that he got to get a shot glass to take home for his 3rd place finish. Many of us don't give a crap about the little local trophies but a lot of people do, that little trophy that I don't even bother to take anymore means a lot to someone who is new to the sport.

+1. Jaxx- please run your car in XP. It's legal there, and you'll have just as much fun.

For the most part when you approach a fellow competitor about illegal mods/or bad classing they typically listen. Most of the time its out of ignorance.
Running illegally locally is just as bad as running illegally nationally. Not everyone can make it to nationals or do the tours.

theres also a point as to how important or effective that 'illegal mod' is. like the debadging or something. i have a wagon, so say if i put wide body fenders on the front from a sedan, but didnt use those fenders to modify what size tire i could run and didnt change anything else about my car then my stx legal wagon would become sp i believe (esp?). technically it would be cheating, but i doubt a local event or possibly even a regional event would care much. hell, it probably would put more weight on my car. am i wrong?

and to add to that, since i am kind of considering putting sedan fenders on the front, but not changing tire size, if i ran locally in what i think it *should* be in esp(?) i wouldnt have any competition locally and would win my class at every event by default. why not give myself competion in where my car would otherwise be. of course if someone in stx protested me then i would have to run my technically legal class.

Bassplayer, I've been there. Believe me. I spent my first season running in FP ALL BY MYSELF. If STX had existed back in 2000, my BMW 325i would have been legal for it (that is, back when ST had UD/BD). And compared to any 50% STX car, would have been woefully underprepped. It WAS woefully underprepped for CSP, which is where I felt my car "belonged". But the local rulemakers felt that my "coilovers" were illegal for CSP, even though I tried pointing out that the mounting points didn't change. So I ran by my ever-so-lonely-self in FP and just compared my times to the CSP times, to get an idea of how I was doing.

So I've been there and I know it's not as much fun. But my opinion is: run in your legal class. If the wide body fenders mean that much to you, then put them on and run ESP. If there are no competitors in ESP, consider running in SM so you have someone to run against. But if being competitive is more important to you and you don't want to do that, then keep your OE fenders.

I debadged too, but that's about the only thing on my car in question (I did graphics on the car so the weight difference is negligible). Once you do realize you should diligently prepare your car to the rules it makes things easy. It's not a question any more, you just "know" that you should do it right. Who wants to put that much work into something like a SP car and then loose a title or placement because you didn't read the rules. Sometimes even the experienced people need a general consensus opinion because the rules are written by humans and thus are subject to possibly be written confusingly, lol.

If someone doesn't have a MAJOR advantage with the illegal mods in question, it's much more fun to just put your energy into to beating them, then worrying about them being illegal. ;)

If someone doesn't have a MAJOR advantage with the illegal mods in question, it's much more fun to just put your energy into to beating them, then worrying about them being illegal. ;)
Oh, I certainly do! :) I take that tactic with basically all illegal cars, even the ones that DO have a major advantage. But I think it's disingenious to say "I know XYZ is illegal in my current class, and I haven't even done it yet, but I think I'll do it and stay in my current class anyway, because I don't think it's a big deal." That's just not remotely fair/polite to your competitors, current or future.

I would also suggest that folks in this predicament investigate if their local region has a 'PAX' class where the heavy hitters run against each other directly. In Houston, we have the 'X' class, which is a class where we find many of the really fast folks who are tired/bored of beating up on the 'rest of us' in the regular open classes. They run against each other on PAX, and being that the bulk of them are all fast drivers, then someone with a few 'worthless, but illegal' mods for a regular open class is not going to upset the apple cart. There are no trophies, so no one is getting rooked out of anything if an 'illegal' car beats someone else.. well, outside of any bent feelings, of course.

So, you basically pick your PAX and run in that class... and it runs in the morning and the afternoon, and there's always at least 10 cars to run against.

People looking to run 'for the fun of it', but not wishing to run alone, can thus run against top-notch competitors.

And you'd be one of the people that KC and many of us have a problem with. If it's just for fun why not run the class you're legal in, even if it turns out to be AM? Why not run FP\XP where your car would probably be legal? I'd guess you're beating at least one person who -IS- SM legal at each event if you've got any talent at all and that person wouldn't be a happy camper if they knew that you knew you were illegal for the class and that you were running it anyways.

For local events where Jen and I help organize and Jen is chief of timing and scoring I know we've taken to just changing the results to move people to the appropriate classes where they are easily identified. In each case I've spoken to the person to let them know that they need to move themselves to the appropriate class for the next event and have usually gotten a positive response. At the last event she was actually able to do some of this before the trophy presentation which prevented the win in STS from being awarded to the RX-8 that someone had told the owner was an STS car. It didn't matter to the RX-8 guy (he won STU as well), but it sure seemed to matter to the guy who ended up 3rd in STS and would have been 4th and out of the trophies that he got to get a shot glass to take home for his 3rd place finish. Many of us don't give a crap about the little local trophies but a lot of people do, that little trophy that I don't even bother to take anymore means a lot to someone who is new to the sport.

2 reasons
1. if your in sm your experienced enough its not the same people that are running stock/st-classes or even sp
2. no competition in local regions for xp/fp .. for that matter no one in prepared

the rule i am referring to is silly as if i put my stock cross member in and bashed it with a hammer/torch so the uppipe would clear it would be 100% legal - i am not gaining any advantage other than supporting my lazyness

i just looked and the weight is very close at 2600
this is my 93 w/ ej20k fwiw

do i have a weight advantage over and wrx running sm .. yes but my chassis is so much softer that it makes up for it
i also can't fit wide enough tires to be competitive

If you want to be competitive, run in the right class, THEN compare your times to the class you *think* you should be in.

--kC

if some one local feels they are being wronged/taking it too seriously ill comply but otherwise i will just have a good time

2 reasons
1. if your in sm your experienced enough its not the same people that are running stock/st-classes or even sp
2. no competition in local regions for xp/fp .. for that matter no one in prepared

With item 1, are you saying that if someone is a competitor in SM, then they are experienced enough to not worry about getting beat/competing with someone with an illegal mod? What you wrote isn't quite translating, so I apologize if I mis-stated your comment.

If you're saying what I'm summarizing, then "that does not follow". A lot of the local SM guys are in fact people running in that class b/c they were told they are illegal for some ST class they tried to be in. So, many times, it winds up being very inexperienced people.

IOW: don't assume that b/c the class is 'high' that this means everyone in it is experienced.


the rule i am referring to is silly as if i put my stock cross member in and bashed it with a hammer/torch so the uppipe would clear it would be 100% legal - i am not gaining any advantage other than supporting my lazyness


I actually understand your rationale there, and I gotta say, it would probably not tick me off if that is your only "illegal" mod. I don't make the rules though, and surely for divisional/national competition, you understand that you are in fact 'non-compliant', yes?

Maybe a rule needs to be in place dealing with situations where an alternative factory-made crossmember is available to help someone swap in a 'same make' motor? This still prohibits crazy 'one-off' crossmember fabs that seem to be what the rule is trying to forbid.

I don't study such rules, so I admit to not thinking terribly much about it. There is probably a good reason for the rule (b/c usually, there is), but if not, maybe a re-think is in order?

if some one local feels they are being wronged/taking it too seriously ill comply but otherwise i will just have a good time

Here's a part you're not getting... If you're finishing ahead of someone (or ANYONE in the class for that matter) that has put a bit of effort into making SURE their car was legal for the class, and they have 'done without' that next mod that would push them out of the class, you are diminishing THEIR fun, just so you can satisfy your own whims. As I've said in many more threads like this... "It's all about how much fun YOU have, not everyone else, right?"

I would bet you're not talking to everyone in the class saying "hey everyone, here's the mods that make me illegal for the class.... (If they find out about them, then I'll say something)"

--kC

I ran my first autox last friday and I cheated...but not really. When i registered i wasn't asked any ?s regarding modifications, if i had been asked i would have gladly told them. But I don't really care what class im placed in, since i am a complete novice and not competing for points and have no goals of winning a class. I just wanted to try autoxing and drive. Next autox i go to ill make sure I let them know, so i can make sure how slow my driving really is :p haha But it is pretty sad to know that cheating goes on at such a grassroots level...not a good example for us novices.

edit: read post #46 wow i feel like an ass bc that is very true good thing i didnt beat anyone else but novices

By the large, I would say the folks who are there FOR THE FUN of it would like to know they are illegal/in violation of the approved rules for the club. When I started I was still not sure if my car is classed right, and found later than some of the mods had put me in a much stronger class.
Not that I cared, I changed it. But I was then running with much more "prepped" cars than my lowly civic.

Now when I raced in my civic, I wasn't much of a threat, and simply did it for the giggles. I wouldn't care if I was against Z06's or the nissan beater truck that was running on slicks. I was going for time, and against myself.

There probably are the d*&^s that try to circumvent the rules simply to "win", but they are the minority. Most folks who are racing at the local club level never aspire for anything higher; they simply want to run their car at the level and see what happens. So if they are breaking the rules, why would they care if someone changed their class? Seems to me the pricks would be the ones who made it to the uber competitive level and get upset with the fact that someone finally noticed, or they were too lazy to confirm their class.

Most folks who are racing at the local club level never aspire for anything higher; they simply want to run their car at the level and see what happens. So if they are breaking the rules, why would they care if someone changed their class?

Again... when you have people that make sure they *ARE* correctly classed, and then get beat by someone not classed properly (intentionally or unintentionally)... how fun is it *for them*? Whether its intentional or unintentional shouldn't matter.

There are rules. There are people that go out of their way to make sure they are classed properly, and there are people at every event that will HELP people become classed properly. As the participant and competitor, this is one of the few sports where everyone else relies on (generic) YOU to be upfront with what you've done. Competitors shouldn't have to be asking 'what have you done?' You should be more forthcoming in the 1st place. It's the nature of the grassroots of this where everyone expects everyone to be honest and straightforward UP-FRONT... not having to be like NASCAR or whatnot trying to find out every little thing you may have done. There's nothing in place for that on the local level (to a point). National events are a different deal.

Those that have been saying 'only if they ask' ALREADY KNOW they are not classed right (or else you wouldn't be saying 'only if they ask'). What's stopping you from putting yourself in the right class in the 1st place?

--kC

Those that have been saying 'only if they ask' ALREADY KNOW they are not classed right (or else you wouldn't be saying 'only if they ask'). What's stopping you from putting yourself in the right class in the 1st place?

--kC

A spine?

Again... when you have people that make sure they *ARE* correctly classed, and then get beat by someone not classed properly (intentionally or unintentionally)... how fun is it *for them*? Whether its intentional or unintentional shouldn't matter.

It's the nature of the grassroots of this where everyone expects everyone to be honest and straightforward UP-FRONT... not having to be like NASCAR or whatnot trying to find out every little thing you may have done. There's nothing in place for that on the local level (to a point). National events are a different deal.


--kC
That is a good point. In my case, I asked for the rule book, was given it, and when I tried to decipher all the classes, finally gave up and asked somebody "what should I be in" with these mods. They tell me STP. Then when we got a bit further, me and some guys got to talking, and found out I should be STM. Wasn't the fault of the competitor whom I asked, nor mine, but simply a breakdown in communication. I could have asked at the reg table, and waited for the 150 people to filter out, but I didn't have the chance. Do I think anybody who was in SP was pissed at the fact that I beat them? No.
I later found a superb SCCA club who had it laid out in an EXTREMELY intelligent fashion, and confirmed that I was SM. I believe that the rules that were written many eons ago could go with a "facelift" to make them more accessible to the novice. Maybe help the younger guys out with a spreadsheet or pie chart?:lol:

I guess my point is, this is one of the only sports where there is no way to police it. If everybody at my local events needed that type of help, tech/registration would be an 8-10 hr ordeal. If folks are that anxious about the fact that someone could be improperly classed, help with the educational process. Make a flyer that says YOU ARE THIS... Make it tougher on the cheaters to cheat. I can guarantee that a club who has the uber level racers, has the information so well interpreted, did that to eliminate the "I didn't knows" or "What am I?". At the clubs where its kind of "show up and run" I have a feeling that 90% of the competitors are not threats to the "real" racers in that class. And many might be in the wrong class even then, and still not impact that driver's standings.

Not everyone has a strong sense of ethics, or in my case, the rules are so poorly written that you err in your class. And most local events (atleast everyone I have been at) are so overwhelmed that you can't take that time to get that info. That does not make it right, but if you want to make it more like a controllable and regulated sport (a-la NASCAR, WRC), it requires more than what I have seen. Heck, I don't know if you COULD do that at a local or even regional level. Fees would be like ridiculous per race, and defeat the very purpose of what I see this to be. Which is running to better yourself, not beat the guy in the Mini. You want that, race on a track wheel to wheel. Maybe that is anathema to the hardcore; but I simply state the general concensus. SCCA/Auto-X is you against a course and against time.
You are right, competitors should not have to ask what mods do you have. But until you eliminate the wiggle room, and make people accountable for the info they provide, errors can occur whether intentional or not. Rules will be broken. For the ones whom cheaters affect, you just have to be able to outdrive the true cheaters and stop them from continuing to do so.

KC I read what you're saying, and I am in no way saying that rules should be broken, or that rules are conditional. How do you eliminate the responses much like sigma kid's, and stop those who would willingly break them?

Considering debadging is ST* legal, and SP* is supposed to "inherit" the ST rules (and build upon them), it would be ridiculous if a emblem deficiency protest is upheld.

Karen

Karen,
Were you being sarcastic? That's not true. I (and some others on the board) are trying to remove as many of the stumbling blocks in the ST to SP progression as possible, but the fact of the matter is that SP rules were in place a long time before ST started creating allowances that were inconsistent with SP allowances. In this case nobody is going to protest over plastic badges, but things like BBKs and body kits are examples of allowances that exist in ST but not in SP. The SP charter is not "to "inherit" the ST rules (and build upon them)" as you suggested.

Joel

I guess my point is, this is one of the only sports where there is no way to police it.I thought "policing" the sport was the responsibility of the participants. If one believes another competitor is cheating or classed inappropriately, it becomes their responsibility to correct the offender and/or submit a protest. I agree with all the others who have stated that autocross participants should play by the rules and class themselves appropriately, regardless of the level. Like somebody said earlier, don't class yourself inappropriately and take away a trophy from somebody who has worked to class themselves appropriately -- that's just mean!!

Edit:
(I'm one of those who sutocrosses only several times a year for the fun of it, and to improve my driving. I probably won't ever become competitive, even on a local level, so it doesn't really matter whether my car is an STX car or an SM car, as long as I'm classes appropriately. Currently, I have an under-prepped STX car, but one of these days, I know my desire to make my car more "fun" will probably move me to SM, for which I will surely be even more underprepped. For the fun and enjoyment of all, I will make myself some new class letters.)

Karen,
Were you being sarcastic?
No, I was just trying to make my argument as short as possible. You know that I know not all of the ST allowances are even close to SP legal.
The SP charter is not "to "inherit" the ST rules (and build upon them)" as you suggested.
The ST rules have evolved a lot since the category's inception (and the original "intent" of ST is a huge debate in and of itself), and SP's rules have become increasingly.... stagnant at the same time. It would be nice to know what exactly what the intent of SP is any more, but that's an argument for another time.

Karen

I think a distinction needs to be made real quick here before too many people start to get discouraged from even trying autox for fear of transgressing the rules.

Autox requires the car owner to self-class. For a RANK NEWB, this -can- be daunting if their car is 'highly modified' as described by SCCA rules. I don't think many people are going to freak out if you enter your first autox and have mis-classed yourself b/c you just couldn't decipher the rules. It is unfortunate that this happens, yes... but it -should- only happen, at most, one time. That sucks that it happens at all, but if the people running in the class with this mis-classed car are just a little pro-active, then the situation gets resolved before any need for bloodshed arises :lol:

What the autox-illuminati here are more upset about is the folks who KNOW they're mis-classed and continue to remain mis-classed "b/c it's more fun for me", so to speak.

There will always be the new folks who are just unsure of what class to run that first event or two before they either find the rules and have them interpreted, or someone approaches them to guide them, or some such. It's an imperfect process, but totally livable IMHO.

What the autox-illuminati here are more upset about is the folks who KNOW they're mis-classed and continue to remain mis-classed "b/c it's more fun for me", so to speak.Exactly! Most of us go out of our way to try to help out the folks that are misclassed. We know the vast majority of the misclassings are unintentional. For the most part, we were all there at one point or another ourselves. :)

I think a distinction needs to be made real quick here before too many people start to get discouraged from even trying autox for fear of transgressing the rules.

Autox requires the car owner to self-class. For a RANK NEWB, this -can- be daunting if their car is 'highly modified' as described by SCCA rules. I don't think many people are going to freak out if you enter your first autox and have mis-classed yourself b/c you just couldn't decipher the rules. It is unfortunate that this happens, yes... but it -should- only happen, at most, one time. That sucks that it happens at all, but if the people running in the class with this mis-classed car are just a little pro-active, then the situation gets resolved before any need for bloodshed arises :lol:

What the autox-illuminati here are more upset about is the folks who KNOW they're mis-classed and continue to remain mis-classed "b/c it's more fun for me", so to speak.

There will always be the new folks who are just unsure of what class to run that first event or two before they either find the rules and have them interpreted, or someone approaches them to guide them, or some such. It's an imperfect process, but totally livable IMHO. Eloquently put. I wish I could convey thoughts in this fashion sometimes. Poifect. :)

--kC

Again... when you have people that make sure they *ARE* correctly classed, and then get beat by someone not classed properly (intentionally or unintentionally)... how fun is it *for them*? Whether its intentional or unintentional shouldn't matter.

--kC

100% fun thats what solo is about - you and your car -thus solo
there is no $
there is no parade
the might be a jacket or helmet bag at the end of the season.. if you abandon your family for 10+ weekends a year to make enough events and/or drive all over the country so you can be the best-ist driver

solo is about getting drivers hooked and educating them about car control and having a good time. if it was truly about competition 4 30 sec runs would never suffice

its the people that get all uppity about it and their elite driving skills being better than everyone else that is its biggest detraction

fwiw i am not the only car thats not sm legal in my region i would estimate that 7 of the 11 entrants at our last event weren't.

i lost all respect for the scca pax/classing system a long time ago. i think it was about the time that i realized that $5000 shocks and tires that cost $5 per run were legal for "stock" but $100 sway bar wasn't if you want to try and compete in this $ game go ahead but your missing the point

^^ You won't follow solo rules and so it's no suprise you won't follow punctuation rules either. Competitive "sports" have rules to follow and if you can't or won't follow them, then don't compete. One less illegal participant I have to corner work for.

Jaxx, what is happening here is YOU are missing the point. Why is YOUR fun more valuable then SOMEONE ELSE'S fun???? So, you have fun just putzing around in your car. Good for you. Someone ELSE might have fun competing on a level playing feild. By ignoring the rules, you have the potential for ruining someone else's fun. Who gave you THAT right????

you guys are missing the "not a competition driving event" point

Jaxx, what is happening here is YOU are missing the point. Why is YOUR fun more valuable then SOMEONE ELSE'S fun???? So, you have fun just putzing around in your car. Good for you. Someone ELSE might have fun competing on a level playing feild. By ignoring the rules, you have the potential for ruining someone else's fun. Who gave you THAT right????

Exactly.

Jaxx,
If you don't like the rules for this playground, go play somewhere else. Don't respect it? No problem; bash away on the Internet. But don't show up to events and expect to be accomodated. There are other sanctioning bodies and forms of racing.

-Biggly

100% fun thats what solo is about - you and your car -thus solo
there is no $
there is no parade
the might be a jacket or helmet bag at the end of the season.. if you abandon your family for 10+ weekends a year to make enough events and/or drive all over the country so you can be the best-ist driver

solo is about getting drivers hooked and educating them about car control and having a good time. if it was truly about competition 4 30 sec runs would never suffice

its the people that get all uppity about it and their elite driving skills being better than everyone else that is its biggest detraction

fwiw i am not the only car thats not sm legal in my region i would estimate that 7 of the 11 entrants at our last event weren't.

i lost all respect for the scca pax/classing system a long time ago. i think it was about the time that i realized that $5000 shocks and tires that cost $5 per run were legal for "stock" but $100 sway bar wasn't if you want to try and compete in this $ game go ahead but your missing the point

^ Disgruntled much? Since when has being able to spend money never helped in any other hobby you've seen. It happens. Guess what, it doesn't matter. A sucky driver could have a stock classed car with $10k worth of legal mods and get beat by a good driver. Sounds like this has happened to you and you need to use that as an excuse. Plenty of people have gone to national level events and upset the balance when they do well on "cheaper" setups. And guess what, it feels good.

Excuses are like ********...and ******** stink.

It just seems like you are prolonging an argument that there is no way for you to win. There are rules. That's it. Simple.

you guys are missing the "not a competition driving event" point

Every autox I have ever been to was a competition..where did you get that idea? :confused: Not a competition driving event would be HPDE, school, track day, etc.

The level of preparation for autox is no different than any other level of amateur racing for the more serious competitors. Just because it is billed as entry level and educational does not take away from the ferocity of the upper echelons of competition. Furthermore, the short amount of seat time also does not reduce the time nor money involved for the more serious competitors.

Sure, one can compete with little money and 'run what they brung' for fun; that has always been one of the best things about the sport. But don't confuse a very liberal and open policy to accept nearly all who come with a complete lack of competition. :)

-Biggly

you guys are missing the "not a competition driving event" point

It absolutely is a competive event for many of us.

You may choose to have fun just improving your skills and that's fine. However, some people, even low down in the ranks, are trying their hardest to beat the next guy.

"Competing" at a local autox may seem lame to someone with opportunities to do bigger and better things, but for some of us these local events are the big thing.

I "cheat" at autox all the time - including two weeks ago when I ran my 2.5RS rallyx car in Street Modified, with 360 treadwear all season tires (I was there to kill them, and the damn things survived it! :furious: ) and an ALK. Also, I had removed some weight in various places other than the rear seat (which was still in the car). And I really don't give a ****. :p

You guys need to pull your panties out of your ***** and let people's direct competitors decide what's fair. Although it is funny to read all this stuff you come up with. :lol:

I've heard people say that it would make them feel like they didn't deserve a trophy or whatever if they were missing the most minor item on their car, and that they take pains to make sure the car is 100% legal for parking lot racing. That just makes me smile and shake my head.

you guys are missing the "not a competition driving event" point
I think you're confusing that with "Auto-x isn't racing".

It's a wholly competitive CONTEST while it's not 'racing'.

From the Rule Book: A Solo Event is a non-speed driving skill contest such as, but not
limited to, autocrosses and slaloms.

--kC

I "cheat" at autox all the time - including two weeks ago when I ran my 2.5RS rallyx car in Street Modified, with 360 treadwear all season tires (I was there to kill them, and the damn things survived it! :furious: ) and an ALK. Also, I had removed some weight in various places other than the rear seat (which was still in the car). And I really don't give a ****. :p

You guys need to pull your panties out of your ***** and let people's direct competitors decide what's fair. Although it is funny to read all this stuff you come up with. :lol:

I've heard people say that it would make them feel like they didn't deserve a trophy or whatever if they were missing the most minor item on their car, and that they take pains to make sure the car is 100% legal for parking lot racing. That just makes me smile and shake my head.


So, you're saying there are no rules at rallyx. Good to know.

I "cheat" at autox all the time - including two weeks ago when I ran my 2.5RS rallyx car in Street Modified, with 360 treadwear all season tires (I was there to kill them, and the damn things survived it! ) and an ALK. Also, I had removed some weight in various places other than the rear seat (which was still in the car). And I really don't give a ****.

So you knowingly cheated - I'd bet your rally competitors will be taking a good hard look at your car at your next event.
There is a big difference between an accidental screw up by a newbie and intentional misclassification of your car.

Rally drivers are notorious for rule infringements/protests and the competition here is not exactly world class.

unsubscribing to save my sanity..

it is my back yard, local region, local events .. not a regional or national -where its is take too seriously -they are just not any fun. my car is close enough for local events which is all i will ever do

a car with 10k in mods being labeled as "stock" is to show that the current way of classing cars with modification are completely unfair anyway - (i have never driven a stock car)

i am saying that the auto-x illuminati (love that BTW) detract greatly from the sport for the rest of us

the rule that i am breaking was put in place to prevent the engine from being lowered in the car (specifically BMW iirc) which i am not doing. its 16.1.P interpretation could go either way
car was built under the 2003/2004 rules and that is where it has stayed

So, you're saying there are no rules at rallyx. Good to know.

Yeah, I guess I can run non-DOT studs on my Rally-X car then and if anyone complains, I'll say "it's only a local event, why does it matter?"

--kC

it is my back yard, local region, local events .. not a regional or national -where its is take too seriously -they are just not any fun. my car is close enough for local events which is all i will ever do

a car with 10k in mods being labeled as "stock" is to show that the current way of classing cars with modification are completely unfair anyway - (i have never driven a stock car)

i am saying that the auto-x illuminati (love that BTW) detract greatly from the sport for the rest of us

the rule that i am breaking was put in place to prevent the engine from being lowered in the car (specifically BMW iirc) which i am not doing. its 16.1.P interpretation could go either way
car was built under the 2003/2004 rules and that is where it has stayedYour problem is with the rules. I think everyone understands that. However, as the rules have changed (for better or worse) one who enters ANY competition should be aware of the rules and how they effect the competitor.

--kC

No KC, the ALK doesn't matter because it's not as big of a thing as tires. What Fred is saying is that so long as you have things that only improve the car a _little_ you can cheat all you want. It's not like these little things can add up and make the whole car faster. I mean, crash bolts on a stock class WRX that allow it to get -3 of front camber aren't going to make the car much faster. Adding a rear bar wouldn't make it much faster either. Nor would adding 3lbs of boost, or 30% stiffer springs, or a carbon fiber hood, or an RA gearset, or a .5" wider set of wheels with .3" wider offset, or lowering the car 1", or taking out the rear seat, or removing the front bumper support. Oh, no, wait. All of those combined WILL make the car faster! A LOT faster! Crap, I just killed my whole theory...

anybody have a towel? I think some sarcasm just dripped on me...

i am saying that the auto-x illuminati (love that BTW) detract greatly from the sport for the rest of us
You show up, class your car correctly(and can get help if you're unsure) and drive. How does that change your whole experience for the day from showing up and classing your car incorrectly and driving? The effort to cheat or not cheat seems about the same to me. Sadly, I'm sure this reasoning carries on to other things in your life as well.

you guys are missing the "not a competition driving event" point
:huh: Maybe you just need to petition for a "non-comp" class in your area then, since you're not in it for the competition.

Hmm, all this talk of correct classing reminded me: I did the H6 rear brake upgrade over the winter and removed a good portion of the rear brake dust shields. I guess I better make myself a couple of magnetic letter M's this weekend (STX to SM). I'll still have fun next weekend.

:huh: Maybe you just need to petition for a "non-comp" class in your area then, since you're not in it for the competition.

^^^^ Yes!

The effort to cheat or not cheat seems about the same to me.
Unfortunately, the more I see in this thread, the more I think that it's not "cheating" that's the problem, it's apathy. Jaxx, for instance, apparently isn't doing this to get an upper hand. It's because he doesn't care, and doesn't see autocross as a competitive event anyway, so it doesn't matter to him.

In which case, he should just run XP or EM or whatever, since it does matter to some people.

Now Fred (aka Kevin) knows better than to cheat (at least I hope he does), and again, I'm seeing his comments about the subject as apathy. He doesn't care about autocross, and as far as he's concerned, the fact that he's on street tires means that the other "little things" he's done to the car are negated anyway.

What I don't understand is why more groups don't have "Non-comp" or "time only" classes so that the apathetic, casual driver who doesn't want to worry about car class can just run, work, and not worry about mods or classification or anything like that. Atlanta Region does it. Autocrossers, Inc. offers it (though it's not publicized). I know Appalachian Sports Car Club used to have it (not sure if they still do).

Cheating to me is a conscious effort to get an advantage over the competition. What some of these guys are saying isn't that they are consciously attempting to beat their competition, but that they are too lazy or apathetic to make the effort to adhere to the rules. Cheating is more insidious because the offenders tend to make an effort to not be noticeable with what they are doing. One particularly infamous case of cheating on the national level involved forgery of Honda documents to make the parts on the car in question appear legit. What we have going on here appears to just be ignorance (which in many cases is quickly rectified by just talking to the person), or, as I said, apathy (which can't be so easily dealt with). If the person is winning, and still doesn't care enough to change the problems, then look into protesting him/her or talk to the event organizer about the problem and see what can be done. Laziness can sometimes be "fixed" by the proper motivation.

Hmm, all this talk of correct classing reminded me: I did the H6 rear brake upgrade over the winter and removed a good portion of the rear brake dust shields. I guess I better make myself a couple of magnetic letter M's this weekend (STX to SM). I'll still have fun next weekend.

You're still STX legal. If I recall correctly, you can modify/remove the brake dust shield to use alternate brake kits.

Eloquently put. I wish I could convey thoughts in this fashion sometimes. Poifect. :)

--kC

:lol: if only I could drive as well as I blather on!

You're still STX legal. If I recall correctly, you can modify/remove the brake dust shield to use alternate brake kits.

14.12.7
Brake backing plates (dust shields) may be modified the minimum amount necessary to accommodate allowed alternate rotors and calipers.

In which case, he should just run XP or EM or whatever, since it does matter to some people.

Now Fred (aka Kevin) knows better than to cheat (at least I hope he does), and again, I'm seeing his comments about the subject as apathy. He doesn't care about autocross, and as far as he's concerned, the fact that he's on street tires means that the other "little things" he's done to the car are negated anyway.

I feel part of the time it's because on the off-chance they do win, they can feel better about themselves since they feel their car isn't faster or isn't much faster than the car in the class they chose, regardless of the rules. I guess an exaggerated point would be 300 hp WRX (using increased boost) with a stock suspension beating a WRX with just adjustable coilovers, both in STX. Less so would be an Integra GSR with a Type R win and half-inch wider wheels with oem rubber beating an Integra GSR, just because the wing doesn't do anything and the wheels are shod with the oem rubber.

One particularly infamous case of cheating on the national level involved forgery of Honda documents to make the parts on the car in question appear legit.

Can you tell the rest of the story? This sounds like an interesting read.

I actually signed up for SM because I didn't know and didn't care what class the ALK and weight removal - oh, yeah, I also had the rear subframe lock bolts in (and still do) - would put me in. And I knew that none of the regular guys in our local SM class were having a bad menstrual cycle, so they wouldn't mind. And if anyone who would actually mind showed up and they didn't beat a slow car with all-season tires, well, I think you can guess my opinion of their opinion. :lol:

Wanna know what our local rallyx rules are? The rules for the class I run in, which is called "NO4," are:

1. AWD
2. Rally tires
3. ... oh, wait - those are the only rules for this class. :banana:

For rallyxes with DC Region of SCCA, I run in M4, which allows just about anything. And I would do this even if the car was legal for the stock class. :p

If (or when) rallyx ever gets this anal, I'll be moving on to something else. :rolleyes:

I actually signed up for SM because I didn't know and didn't care what class the ALK and weight removal - oh, yeah, I also had the rear subframe lock bolts in (and still do) - would put me in. And I knew that none of the regular guys in our local SM class were having a bad menstrual cycle, so they wouldn't mind. And if anyone who would actually mind showed up and they didn't beat a slow car with all-season tires, well, I think you can guess my opinion of their opinion. :lol:

Wanna know what our local rallyx rules are? The rules for the class I run in, which is called "NO4," are:

1. AWD
2. Rally tires
3. ... oh, wait - those are the only rules for this class. :banana:

For rallyxes with DC Region of SCCA, I run in M4, which allows just about anything. And I would do this even if the car was legal for the stock class. :p

If (or when) rallyx ever gets this anal, I'll be moving on to something else. :rolleyes:

Do realize that people in SM probably don't care because you probably pose 0% threat to them. In stock and ST classes, even small mods might provide an overwhelming advantage. One example is how I saw a 2002 WRX with a ej25 swap running in STX. Considering that a EJ255 was swapped, I don't think the guy swapped in a stock ECU either. I bet that extra power makes a big difference in ST as oppose to say if it was a EJ257 (US-spec STI engine) swapped into a 2002 WRX for ESP, where handling is a much bigger part of the equation.

Just because an illegal modder is at the back of the pack, technically he's still screwing however many people who's slower. It doesn't matter how many slow, legitimate people are in said class; there is no good reason to screw the legit people since they follow the rules.

Unfortunately, the more I see in this thread, the more I think that it's not "cheating" that's the problem, it's apathy. Jaxx, for instance, apparently isn't doing this to get an upper hand. It's because he doesn't care, and doesn't see autocross as a competitive event anyway, so it doesn't matter to him.


exactly thank you

exactly thank you
If it doesn't matter, then why not class your car correctly?

I admit I ran SM "illegally" in my VW (The street car, which is missing front carpet). I knew I wasn't going to win a trophy, and I would rather be trophy fodder for similar SM cars than some organizer-decided index class where I wouldn't even know who I was driving against until after the event finished.

In my WRX (SM) and rally VW (Prepared), I steer away from our indexed street tire classes (local classes, not national) because there's always at least one "stock" car with springs, CAI, or some other illegal mod that out-indexes my correctly classed car.

wow, there are some sorry people out there.

If it really doesn't matter and it is a bs sport, 1-why do you go and 2- why do you choose to not run in the proper class.

Because 1. you enjoy it, and 2. you don't have the balls/skills/integrity to try to win fair and square

I guess the saving grace for sanity is that 99% of the time any combination of driving ability, seat time and tire choice beat out all cheater mods combined - and the cheaters almost always lose to people who play by the rules in UNDERPREPARED cars. I feel for people who are properly classed and just learning, and get bumped down by a55hats like you.

BTW, isn't drifting cooler anyway - why don't you go over there - I hear they have less rules :devil:

racing is just a competition of who is cheating the most and not getting caught... try this... go run in the SCCA spec miata class with a car that comply's 100% with the rule books and go out there and try to win a race... you'll get run over

Fred,
You only run autox with a private club so that does make things a bit different. Private clubs can have allowances that SCCA clubs have a lot harder time doing to be honest. (e.g. Remember the steering wheel/airbag/helmet debate? Yeah, TH could have avoided that entirely by simply ignoring the nonsense. Thankfully the SCCA found the error in their ways of publishing a poor recommendation for F1 cars and trying to apply it to autox...but that's for another thread.) Private clubs are not bound by the SCCA's rules even though most follow their classing structure.

The fact that you basically head the rallyx program and own the most important rallyx site might give you some leverage anyway. Here is a question for you though: Do you think that within your club the folks that run both rallyx and autox have taken a more lax view of autox 'rules' as a result of being involved in something with nearly no rules? :)

-Biggly

Speaking of cheating....I met Tom Hoppe last weekend, now I know why we never see Biggly at National events.:lol:
He gave me some great ideas.:devil:
I'm kidding, my car is 100% STX legal.

I want to win at the national level, but not so badly I feel the need to cheat. I mean seriously folks we drive around cones in a parking lot, grown up driver's ed, cheating seems a little rediculous.

Exploiting the rules to the maximum is another story, that's not cheating, in a way I think it adds a whole other competitive dimension to the sport.

Can you tell the rest of the story? This sounds like an interesting read.

Long story short, guy running a CRX swapped some stuff out (IIRC, springs and gears were the main things), and then forged documentation from Honda stating that it was part of a "towing package." Well, a competitor who is very knowledgable about all things Honda got suspicious, and called around, asking for more information from his Honda dealer, the district rep, etc., etc. Obviously, it soon became very, very clear that it was a clever scam.

Keep in mind that at the time (about 15 years ago), there was a lot of money in Honda contingency, tire contingency, etc. So, when the little plot finally unraveled, the guy had to pay a crazy amount in fines to SCCA, was suspended from SCCA competition for 10 years, etc., etc.

Look around online for references to a "towing package" and you should be able to discern who this person is.

Funny how the worst cheaters become the biggest rules folks later. Kinda like born again fanatics.

Funny how the worst cheaters become the biggest rules folks later. Kinda like born again fanatics.

Kind of like when Nascar had Gary Nelson, sometimes the best way to catch them is the have the biggest one in charge. :lol:

I just go to autoxes to see how sideways I can get the car without spinning it at this point. It was a lot more fun with the STi than the RS, so I'll probably see if I can co-drive something next time I go to one (not very soon).

Biggly - the other rallyxers usually don't have many good things to say about autox after doing several (or even one) rallyx. It's mostly about how much standing around there is at autoxes, how few runs you get, how simple autox technique is compared to rallyx technique, how much more entertaining it is to watch rallyx, and how stupid the autox rules are.

Autoxes can be fun if the courses are designed right, but in general they just suck compared to many other forms of entertainment. :)

Speaking of cheating....I met Tom Hoppe last weekend, now I know why we never see Biggly at National events.:lol:

If you're implying that I am cheating...uh, no. All seriousness aside, did he tell you to buy a house and be house poor? That's my formula.
:p

-Biggly

Someone please let me know what cheats I need in STU to pick up 4-5 seconds :lol: Tired of getting beat by a stock STi.

Someone please let me know what cheats I need in STU to pick up 4-5 seconds :lol: Tired of getting beat by a stock STi.

There are only 2 things capable (well one really) of helping that much.
1) Evo school. The more the n00b, the more the gain. I've seen folks come back 4 seconds faster. Literally.
2) Brand new tires. Though the gain is usually only like 2 seconds...but can be 4 if going from basic street tires up to full R-compounds. This is of course class dependant.

Nothing else will make that much time difference...there are no cheats that can help you near that amount.

-Biggly

Speaking of cheating....I met Tom Hoppe last weekend, now I know why we never see Biggly at National events.:lol:
He gave me some great ideas.:devil:

Now THAT made me giggle.

I've got to admit I am always stunned by the number of people who are quite happy to stand up and announce "I'm an ******* and don't care about anyone else" when the subject of rules comes up. If you don't like the rules don't play. Don't give any of us any bull**** about how it's just for fun. If it were just for fun you'd run the class you were legal for and have fun. When we first started Jen ran her car at several events in FP, being the only FP car and in fact the only P car at several events. What mattered more than beating someone else was actually having fun and we had a blast and got hooked, four years later we owned a car that had the potential to be at the top of it's class and started prepping it to it's limits.

Biggly - the other rallyxers usually don't have many good things to say about autox after doing several (or even one) rallyx. It's mostly about how much standing around there is at autoxes, how few runs you get, how simple autox technique is compared to rallyx technique, how much more entertaining it is to watch rallyx, and how stupid the autox rules are.


A good driver would be able to win at both.
To knock the technique in one, would lead me to believe that your skills on sealed surfaces are limited.

You may note that rallying is not an all gravel affair, and if you know much about rallying, you'd know that a good autocross technique tranfers directly to tarmac stages.

If the autocross technique is so simple, why not try to win a few, if you are making the effort to go in the first place.

There are only 2 things capable (well one really) of helping that much.
1) Evo school. The more the n00b, the more the gain. I've seen folks come back 4 seconds faster. Literally.
2) Brand new tires. Though the gain is usually only like 2 seconds...but can be 4 if going from basic street tires up to full R-compounds. This is of course class dependant.

Nothing else will make that much time difference...there are no cheats that can help you near that amount.

-Biggly


Darn, the new tires aren't helping :banana: Will have to get in a EVO school at some point. Not much of cheats though :lol:

If you're implying that I am cheating...uh, no. All seriousness aside, did he tell you to buy a house and be house poor? That's my formula.
:p

-Biggly
No, I'm not implying that you are cheating I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was just some fun because we know how "creative" Tom is. Actually I applaud his ability to maximize the ruleset.

A good driver would be able to win at both.
To knock the technique in one, would lead me to believe that your skills on sealed surfaces are limited.

You may note that rallying is not an all gravel affair, and if you know much about rallying, you'd know that a good autocross technique tranfers directly to tarmac stages.

If the autocross technique is so simple, why not try to win a few, if you are making the effort to go in the first place.


:eek:

Oh, snap - you got me there. I suck at both - that's why I just do it for fun.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

A good driver would be able to win at both.
To knock the technique in one, would lead me to believe that your skills on sealed surfaces are limited.

You may note that rallying is not an all gravel affair, and if you know much about rallying, you'd know that a good autocross technique tranfers directly to tarmac stages.

If the autocross technique is so simple, why not try to win a few, if you are making the effort to go in the first place.

Fred is fast at whatever he does: Autox, rallyx, you name it. He's won more autox trophies in a fiercely competitive club than plenty of folks ever have. I've watched him drive on many occasions and he's a great driver; even taken a ride-along with him a time or two. His whole thing against autox is a focus shift away from the ruleset and more about running in a relaxed atmosphere... such as one would find in rallyx. It's just that autox isn't really a relaxed-with-hardly-any-rules type event, even though I know he (and plenty of others!) would like for it to be. If you think autox is relaxed as far as competition and worrying about equipment, etc...then you have never been to a good rallyx because it is truly a different experience.

He runs an underprepared car at every rallyx event and still runs away from folks with ease. He's all about letting the driver talent sort it out, not the theoretical 0.001s gain from a bushing replacement. It just doesn't come across quite well because it's the Internet. So he runs hideously underprepared at the autox though technically 1 part is lightly illegal. *shrug* Let the local club sort it out...but I promise they already know. :cool: (Plus I think he likes advocating to all of the rule nazis to lighten-the-hell-up-and-why-bother-with-rules just to ruffle some feathers.) :lol:

No, I'm not implying that you are cheating I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was just some fun because we know how "creative" Tom is. Actually I applaud his ability to maximize the ruleset.

Glad I caught this; you had me bothering Tom going "Dude, what the heck did you say to those guys???" Honestly, while it's creative, I still always looked at it like 'well why didn't I think of that?' rather than a 'wow, that is really pushing it.' :)

-Biggly

:lol:

I'm full of grey area stuff, cause if I see something that can be stretched I stretch it, but I don't outright "cheat" on stuff. Unless you consider a bolt missing here or there :)

-Tom

racing is just a competition of who is cheating the most and not getting caught... try this... go run in the SCCA spec miata class with a car that comply's 100% with the rule books and go out there and try to win a race... you'll get run over

Well, speaking for myself... no, that's wholly inaccurate.

I not only don't cheat, I am woefully underprepped for my class as it is. I happen to be winning anyway b/c our resident STU 'fast guy' (also legal) migrated to another class this year to co-drive and I'm the next fastest guy who regularly bothers to show up and collect points.

I don't doubt some cheaters are out there, just don't agree with your absolutist, broad-brush statement is all.

Besides, we're talking about cheating at autox, not Spec Miata. :)

Yea, cheating at autox and cheating in Club/Pro racing are two COMPLETELY different things.

Most of the top guys in Showroom Stock/Touring are "cheating" in one way or another. Whether its general, break the rule cheating, or the gray area cheating.

-Tom

Yea, cheating at autox and cheating in Club/Pro racing are two COMPLETELY different things.

Most of the top guys in Showroom Stock/Touring are "cheating" in one way or another. Whether its general, break the rule cheating, or the gray area cheating.

-Tom

Agreed,
This is a whole different level and not germane to the autox discussion at hand. :)

-Biggly

Plus I think he likes advocating to all of the rule nazis to lighten-the-hell-up-and-why-bother-with-rules just to ruffle some feathers.)

That's how I roll, bitches. :p

Yeah, it's partially because I don't give a **** and partially because it's entertaining to read what the parking lot rules nazis have to say. :lol:

Oh, btw - you rules nazis don't exceed the speed limit even by 1mph or accelerate hard enough to spin tires ever, right? Because that would be... ummm... ILLEGAL. :banana:

Glad I caught this; you had me bothering Tom going "Dude, what the heck did you say to those guys???" Honestly, while it's creative, I still always looked at it like 'well why didn't I think of that?' rather than a 'wow, that is really pushing it.' :)

-Biggly

:lol:

I'm full of grey area stuff, cause if I see something that can be stretched I stretch it, but I don't outright "cheat" on stuff. Unless you consider a bolt missing here or there :)

-Tom
HAHA I got in your head!:lol:

I agree; understanding and maximizing the allowances is part of the game, especially so when you approach National level prep.

:lol:

I'm full of grey area stuff, cause if I see something that can be stretched I stretch it, but I don't outright "cheat" on stuff. Unless you consider a bolt missing here or there :)

-Tom

Bolts fall out all the time, the world is an imperfect place :devil:

I'm full of grey area stuff, cause if I see something that can be stretched I stretch it, but I don't outright "cheat" on stuff.

Oh, REALLY? :huh:

Don't worry, I won't tell... :devil:

That's how I roll, bitches.

Yeah, it's partially because I don't give a **** and partially because it's entertaining to read what the parking lot rules nazis have to say.

You don't have much time for autocross, with your "simple technique" and "autocross is stupid" quotes.
Fine, you don't like the rules - don't do it. Plenty of others out there run it, and treat it as a competitive event, and having people come along with their own interpretation of the rules is not a way to run an effective event. And when you start making allowances for small variances of the rules, where do you draw the line.

Part of the reason rallyx has less rules, is that far far fewer people compete in rallyx. Turn up to a competitive rally event anywhere else in the world, and the rule book is far bigger than any autocross rule book.

Rallycross and rally, while great fun, is a minority sport here, and even then, people at the higer levels are grumbling when joe moneybags turns up with better equipment.

I love doing both, but effective classing and rules have to be there to run a sport - if people started turning up in WRC's impreza at rallyx, you'd see the rule book getting awful fat awful quick....

Thanks for all the very helpful advice, fastfreddy - I now see the error of my ways, and will start doing things your way toot sweet. :lol:

And I would LOVE for somebody to bring a WRC Impreza to one of our events. (I don't think my 2.5RS would mind, either.) I don't see us changing any rules if that happens, though. If Sebastien Loeb was driving it, we might have to start using an "X" class based on the driver, though. :lol:

That's how I roll, bitches. :p

Yeah, it's partially because I don't give a **** and partially because it's entertaining to read what the parking lot rules nazis have to say. :lol:


Which is worse, wasting your time posting juvenile elitist BS on a subject you admit to not caring about, or being passionate about a sport you care about? :disco:

nate

And I would LOVE for somebody to bring a WRC Impreza to one of our events. (I don't think my 2.5RS would mind, either.) I don't see us changing any rules if that happens, though. If Sebastien Loeb was driving it, we might have to start using an "X" class based on the driver, though

Fred - just trying to highlight why the rules are the way they are. In ireland, where I am from, national competitors are always grumbling when 10 WRC cars turn up and steal their thunder. There is a movement to ban them at national level.

BTW - if you want to see loeb getting a run for his money by a bunch of amateurs, the donegal rally is on in the next couple of weeks.

http://www.rally.ie/article.php?article_id=070101/205657


Grohdholm was being beat by a bus company manager in one of the last events in galway.

Once rallyx takes off here, the rulebook will be as big, if not bigger than autox.

But knocking autox, and trying to incite arguements does yourself a disservice.

:lol:
Unless you consider a bolt missing here or there :)

-Tom

How much weight do you save by replacing a bolt with a zip-tie or piece of duct-tape? Hmmmm...? :lol:

How much weight do you save by replacing a bolt with a zip-tie or piece of duct-tape? Hmmmm...? :lol:

None when you add back anti-protest lead weights. :p :)

-Biggly

None when you add back anti-protest lead weights. :p :)

-Biggly

Leave Tom's beer belly outta this!

Well, I did run a couple of events in X class with AMod pax index, until somebody told me that my STi technically wasn't legal for AMod. Then I just decided that if people are going to be anal enough to point that out, I should stop giving a ****. So I just stopped giving a ****. :lol:

:banana:

Part of the problem could also be your local region. Regions are as different as you and I are.

Just a thought. It would be stupid to cover them all with the same broad brush.

I've been cheating all year!!! I didn't know it due to running a car I didn't build. It had an ALK on it and I have been running in SM at every event, simply because I was told it was an SM car.Well, technically a Whiteline ALK should be legal for SM. The original intent of the rule was to prevent people from converting strut suspension to wishbone, or non-IRS to IRS, etc... not to prevent basic alignment changes from an offset bushing bracket. That's a ridiculous abuse of the rule system in my opinion, and probably is the result of people being intentionally obtuse about the rule.

Well, technically a Whiteline ALK should be legal for SM. The original intent of the rule was to prevent people from converting strut suspension to wishbone, or non-IRS to IRS, etc... not to prevent basic alignment changes from an offset bushing bracket. That's a ridiculous abuse of the rule system in my opinion, and probably is the result of people being intentionally obtuse about the rule.

Actually you are really close, but it wasn't intentional in nature. Someone pushed the issue and asked for clarification so that they could be sure they were legal as it sat in a gray area for a while and when the clarification came back, it came back as a OMG an offset bushing that is otherwise legal but the housing is altered?? You've modified the whole suspension! No SM for you! ruling. Or something to that effect. :)

-Biggly

Well, I did run a couple of events in X class with AMod pax index, until somebody told me that my STi technically wasn't legal for AMod. Then I just decided that if people are going to be anal enough to point that out, I should stop giving a ****. So I just stopped giving a ****. :lol:

:banana:

Wait, someone actually pointed that out to you? Unbelievable.

KC: He's running with a private club that likes to do things by the rules...but how he ended up like this is just ridiculous. Whomever said he can't run an AMod PAX needs to be kicked out of the club.

-Biggly

Private club.. their rules. Maybe they didn't like Subarus. :lol:

--kC

Well, it was more like

"I saw you're running in X class with AM pax - why?"

"Because I did like 50 course testing runs yesterday to tweak the flow & to play around, I had my fun, and I wanted to be fair today, while having a little more fun. AM/X will eliminate any unfair advantage I may have gained by running the course that many times."

"Oh. Well, your car is actually not legal for AM because of blah blah, so you should actually run with the blah blah pax if you want to do that."

"Wow. You have way too much time on your hands." :huh:


I do think it's ok to take autox seriously if you're really competitive and really enjoy it. What's not ok is to start calling people a-holes for things like running in SM at a local event (that you were hundreds of miles away from) with very minor illegal mods such as an ALK and rear subframe lock bolts when the car is on all-season tires... and the course is called "slalomania." :eek: :lol: Anybody who actually gives a crap about winning SM should be able to beat a guy who's on all-seasons. If he can't, then I really don't care about his opinion, because he obviously shouldn't be taking it that seriously at this point. He should be focused on driving better. :lol:

This thread has been a little like some guy coming by the house to tell me why I'm going to hell and what I need to do about it, when I don't even agree that there is a hell. Although if there is, I'm sure the SCCA Solo2 rulebook is involved. :lol:

Wow, you have issues.

--kC
"Tell me about your mother..."

This thread has been a little like some guy coming by the house to tell me why I'm going to hell and what I need to do about it, when I don't even agree that there is a hell.FWIW, I think your analogy is fundamentally flawed. IMO, this thread is closer to you going to a church and stating "I don't think there is a hell" and then getting pissy that the churchgoers then take that opportunity to explain to you why there is one.

Edit: to fix typo.

I guess you guys just take driving around like an idiot in a parking lot way too seriously. :lol: There was a time when I took it too seriously, too. I'm much better, now - thanks to taking a step back and getting some perspective. Maybe you should try doing the same. :)

There are a lot more important issues in the world to get worked up about than this.

You can have your thread back, now - I'm through playing with it. :)

I don't know why you can't figure this out.


It's the same as ANY other form of amateur or even professional competition.


I participate in shooting sports, and the mods you can do to your piece are very much regulated in the same way. There's even an open class where you can run big sights and almost 30 round magazines, and 3/4 pound triggers, but even the open class has limits of what is TOO much.

If you don't want to play, DON'T PLAY, or run non-comp against yourself if you club allows it.

There are a lot more important issues in the world to get worked up about than this.Who's worked up? I'd venture to say not a one of us who have argued "against you" is "worked up". All we're saying is: just sign up for whatever class you're actually legal for and be done with it.

I'm curious - do you encourage kids to cheat at other sports too?? "You should sign up for the 12-13 year old baseball league, even though you're 14, because you don't have as good of a throwing arm as most of the 14-year olds, so it all evens out." :p

I'm curious - do you encourage kids to cheat at other sports too?? "You should sign up for the 12-13 year old baseball league, even though you're 14, because you don't have as good of a throwing arm as most of the 14-year olds, so it all evens out." :p


lol45

I guess you guys just take driving around like an idiot in a parking lot way too seriously. :lol:


Imprezzabuhl! ... it r teh moar srsly thn All!


There are a lot more important issues in the world to get worked up about than this.


such as? ... 'climate change' ?.. 'illegal immigration'? .. oh, I know... 'which beer really DOES taste best!' Yep, you're right!

c'mon man.. that's such a cop-out, it's really not even funny... "more serious things to worry about?" ... well YEAH, of course there are. I'd say that most of societies -true- ills (people being asses to each other, en masse) are more important than pretty much anything invented since shortly after the stone-age (gotta draw a line somewhere, I figure learning what rocks are is pretty good, but outside of that... meh).

'Important Issues' has zero to do with maybe just trying to play by the rules.

Don't make me bust out a Godwin-worthy statement! :lol:


<-- off to go investigate that whole beer-tasting thing.

<-- off to go investigate that whole beer-tasting thing.

I'm currently enjoying sampling a couple of new ones. The Ellacott Blueberry wheat was quite refreshing and the Magic Hat #9 was pretty good as well. The Magic Hat Mystery Summer beer seems to be a rather heavy Maibock which seems a strange choice for a summer beer but hey I'll drink it. About to open the Hocus Pocus now. :lol:

I'm currently enjoying sampling a couple of new ones. The Ellacott Blueberry wheat was quite refreshing and the Magic Hat #9 was pretty good as well. The Magic Hat Mystery Summer beer seems to be a rather heavy Maibock which seems a strange choice for a summer beer but hey I'll drink it. About to open the Hocus Pocus now. :lol:What brewery is that? I just came back from Rock Bottom myself and had a nice Oatmeal Stout on nitrogen, and a Strong Ale on hand pull. Yes, it's a chain, but we have a great brewer from Scotland that's running four specialty beers all the time that have all been fabulous since it opened three months ago. Maybe we take our beer too seriously too and should be happy with Bud and Lite, whose marketing tastes better than their beer(pi$$). Think I'll open a Bell's Two Hearted Ale, cheers!

I think that one of the fundamental problems with autox classing is that half of the people are running purpose built cars to compete within a class, and the other half want great street tuned performance for their daily driver and small parts that don't help much at all put them in a class that they clearly don't fit into because they lack other much more important parts necessary to be competitive in that class. That's like a guy with sway bars and winters running against a guy without sways but with R-comps... I know that this doesn't exactly work out right with real class rules but you understand the point. I don't think that people should cheat, but do you expect some random guy to uninstall certain parts to fit into a class or get put in some class that he is running lap times 10 seconds slower than? It's tough.... I wonder how classing would look if parts were worth points and a class was a certain group of cars with X,Y,Z number of points allocated to engine.. suspension... etc.

so then you just have people under estimating their prep points.

the Canadians run a point system for their national classing. with our classing, and allowances it is relatively easy to prep a car, just take all the allowances. Fine details of spring rates etc, take some fine tuning, but the general setup is pretty straight forward. With the point system you have to balance the benefits of different improvements based upon the point. Is it better to upgrade swaybars or add a race seat or is a supercharger better than coilovers, both are 4 points for Street Prepared.

with our classing, and allowances it is relatively easy to prep a car, just take all the allowances...With the point system you have to balance the benefits of different improvements based upon the point.Exactly! While a points-based system is probably better at grouping together pre-existing cars, it would really stink IMO for a full-out autocross effort (such as you get with national SCCA competition).

I don't think that people should cheat, but do you expect some random guy to uninstall certain parts to fit into a class or get put in some class that he is running lap times 10 seconds slower than?The latter.

He can still *compare* his times to the class he *wants* to be in to measure performance once the event is completed.

He's STILL going to be behind whether in Stock, ST or SM against a decently/nationally prepped car. (One will be 10 seconds, and the other two probably 6-7 seconds either one). But he'll still be a good distance behind no matter what in *any* class. This is why we've been saying... class yourself where your mods put you... you can still compare your times later to where you think you should be. This way, it doesn't detract from the times others are running legally.

As far as a points based system.... :lol:

It's the same thing. You run tiers, right? Say hypothetically you can have 30 points on your car before you're pushed up to the next tier/class.

One can generally look at the mod list if they have any experience and choose the modifications that will put them right at the 30 points before they're bumped up to the next tier.

Now, if you come to the event with 31 points in mods, you are now a backmarker in the next tier, right? Wholly underprepped... and you're back to the same issue that SCCA type classing has.... Now, you need more points/mods to be added to your car to make it competitive again, or just suffer and be a backmarker.

That is no different than a classing structure that the SCCA uses. If anything, it means one needs to throw more money to test and swap out parts to find the exact combination that will give them the edge in the tier so they stay right at the max in points for the tier, "without going over Bob"... whereas the SCCA classing says "everyone can only do X, Y, Z." All cars can do the same thing, without having to pick and choose what might give them the edge over the other car in the class.

--kC

I'm currently enjoying sampling a couple of new ones. The Ellacott Blueberry wheat was quite refreshing and the Magic Hat #9 was pretty good as well. The Magic Hat Mystery Summer beer seems to be a rather heavy Maibock which seems a strange choice for a summer beer but hey I'll drink it. About to open the Hocus Pocus now. :lol:

:jaw-agape-smiley: :D

Most of those I've only ever heard about, on sites like beeradvocate.com. I have to drive 40 miles to one of the big liquor stores downtown to get stuff like that, and ya know, it's just too far! I am lucky enough to have a store nearby that carries St. Arnold's (local micro-brew) and a slew of more widely spread micro-brews, and that gets me by :) Also, so long as I can get my Dogfish Head varieties, I'm good. I still have one DFH 120 sitting in my fridge. I'm hoarding it for 'the right day'... you know how that goes! "man, I need to pick the exact right day to bust that beer open.. don't want to just drink it for -no- real reason, its too good to do that with it!" :lol: Yeah, I have a problem! .. it's that I'm almost outta 120s!

Hmm, 'mystery summer', is the mystery that it is heavier than you'd expect? :alien:

/threadjack complete?

I still have one DFH 120 sitting in my fridge.Yum. I love the 90 Minute, but have never had the 120. We're hoping our local store is able to get some of this year's batch of 120. We requested it the last time we were in there, and he was going to see what he could do.

(We're lucky in that there are 3 different stores within 10 minutes of us that all carry many unique microbrews! And an even-closer brewpub, Brew Kettle, where we can get quite a few of them on tap!)

Actually you are really close, but it wasn't intentional in nature. Someone pushed the issue and asked for clarification so that they could be sure they were legal as it sat in a gray area for a while and when the clarification came back, it came back as a OMG an offset bushing that is otherwise legal but the housing is altered?? You've modified the whole suspension! No SM for you! ruling. Or something to that effect. :)

-Biggly
So what you're saying is that the people on the board at that time were TOO ****ING STUPID to understand the wording of their own rule book?

So what you're saying is that the people on the board at that time were TOO ****ING STUPID to understand the wording of their own rule book?

Uh, no. Upon clarification they went with the exact letter of the rule rather than the intention of it. So that's why the offset bushing in a stock housing is considered kosher over the non-offset bushing in the offset housing instead. :)

-Biggly

I'm just curious about how often do people see cheating occurring at autocross. At one of the local autocrosses this month, I saw blatant cheating such as ESP cars in STX, STX/STU cars in DS and etc. While it shouldn't really matter in the overall picture as it wasn't for points for ProSolo or there wasn't prize money (unless you count the $5 plaque/trinket trophy), it does ruin the spirit of the sport.I have a question for you.

My WRX has 48mm offset wheels. I'm allowed 0.25" (about 6.36mm) offset variation from stock. But 7mm = 0.273".

Should I "cheat" and run in Stock, or be honest and run in a modified class?

I have a question for you.

My WRX has 48mm offset wheels. I'm allowed 0.25" (about 6.36mm) offset variation from stock. But 7mm = 0.273".

Should I "cheat" and run in Stock, or be honest and run in a modified class?

Stock offset is 55, right?

55-6.35 (.25in) = 48.65

48 < 48.65.

What do you think? I agree, we're talking mm here, and a fraction of one at that... but there's a defined limit as to the what the SCCA thought was acceptable. How about shaving/machining the back of the wheel mounting surface (where it contacts the hub) that extra .65 mm?

Then it's legal. Any machine shop should be able to shave it off, and .65mm won't comprimise the wheels integrity.

--kC

Just out of curiosity what class would my car run?

It's an 07 STI with the following:
accessport
Turbo back
Meth Injection
Front and rear sways
Engine and Tranny mounts
Spearco Intercooler
CAI
TGV deletes

Just out of curiosity what class would my car run?

It's an 07 STI with the following:
accessport
Turbo back
Meth Injection
Front and rear sways
Engine and Tranny mounts
Spearco Intercooler
CAI
TGV deletes
We have other threads for that in the auto-x specific forum.

--kC

Sounds legal to me......Painted rotor hats might throw you over!!! :eek:

Jay
Stock offset is 55, right?

55-6.35 (.25in) = 48.65

48 < 48.65.

What do you think? I agree, we're talking mm here, and a fraction of one at that... but there's a defined limit as to the what the SCCA thought was acceptable. How about shaving/machining the back of the wheel mounting surface (where it contacts the hub) that extra .65 mm?

Then it's legal. Any machine shop should be able to shave it off, and .65mm won't comprimise the wheels integrity.

--kC

Just out of curiosity what class would my car run?

It's an 07 STI with the following:
accessport
Turbo back
Meth Injection
Front and rear sways
Engine and Tranny mounts
Spearco Intercooler
CAI
TGV deletes

None. Meth injection is expressly prohibited.

We have other threads for that in the auto-x specific forum.

--kC

Sorry

None. Meth injection is expressly prohibited.

I have a map without meth, what would it be then?

A-Mod

Stock offset is 55, right?

55-6.35 (.25in) = 48.65

48 < 48.65.

What do you think? I agree, we're talking mm here, and a fraction of one at that... but there's a defined limit as to the what the SCCA thought was acceptable. How about shaving/machining the back of the wheel mounting surface (where it contacts the hub) that extra .65 mm?

Then it's legal. Any machine shop should be able to shave it off, and .65mm won't comprimise the wheels integrity.

--kC

heh heh

A-Mod

Thanks, you're a big help. :unamused:

Sounds legal to me......Painted rotor hats might throw you over!!! :eek:

Jay

They shouldn't because the rotor hats aren't part of the wheel. There may be some other rule that makes them not eligible, but this shouldn't.

being that I autox for fun rather than to compete, I just puy myself in the "do anything I want to the car" class (EM) so I don't have to worry about it. Plus some of the random mods I have kind of force me into it.

I wonder what tolerances are allowed for in the rules. IIRC there are a number of rules based on dimensions: in stock, wheels must be same width as OE, spring perches must be in same position, replacement component weights must not be significantly less than OE, etc.

Let's say I replace my 6.5" WRX rims with another set of rims marked as 6.5" but the actual measured width was 6.55"?

I'm not sure what manufacturing tolerances are for some components. Maybe it goes my stamped size not measured size?

I supposed it's a bit academic, but when we're saying 0.65mm too much offset is cheating, it made me wonder whether all my wheels fall within those tolerances for width and offset.

They give tolerances, and that tolerance was 1/4". you're asking for a tolerance on a tolerance. Now, would anyone locally care? Probably not. Would someone at nationals purposefully push the limit so that it allows the installation of another part? Probably.

I've never seen significantly less weight, only "must not weigh less than original". i've ony ever seen "no significant effect at solo speeds" when talking about cosmetic aero parts.

I don't think 1/4" is a tolerance, it is an allowance.

What if one manufacturers 6.5" width rims are really 6.55" wide. What if their 49mm offset measures in at 48.5mm? What if I buy a replacement part that actually weighs 10 grams less than the original part?

I know this is a bit too silly even for Solo rules, so I'll stop :)

Just out of curiosity what class would my car run?

It's an 07 STI with the following:
accessport
Turbo back
Meth Injection
Front and rear sways
Engine and Tranny mounts
Spearco Intercooler
CAI
TGV deletes

If he changes his Meth to water injection i dont see why he wouldnt be in BSP? Unless he has cusco tranny mount....everything else seems okay to BSP class.

AP = rule 15.10.C.4F
TBE = rule 15.10.I
Change meth to water = rule 15.10.G
F&R sways = STU legal
Intercooler = 15.10.C.3
CAI = STU legal
TGV's = 15.10.F
Engine mounts = rule 15.10.J
Tranny mount = rule 15.10.N

Am i reading the rules correctly?

you guys are missing the "not a competition driving event" point

one of the few reasons I keep autocross is due to the fierce competition that I have experienced in the different autocross clubs that I compete in.

I totally agree with what KC is trying to tell you. However, in your defense, it is up to your competitors to step up and say something. You say that some of the other SM competitor are not legal to the class. Why not get them to run the correct class? or get them to run XP so you can have some cometition in your correct class? Then you really know how fast or slow you are to your competition.

Personally, only noobs with mis-classed cars do the majority of the "cheating". any good driver that cheats is usually skirting the grey areas of the rules a little or in some cases, a lot :rolleyes: When caught, the problems are quickly corrected.

If he changes his Meth to water injection i dont see why he wouldnt be in BSP? Unless he has cusco tranny mount....everything else seems okay to BSP class.

AP = rule 15.10.C.4F
TBE = rule 15.10.I
Change meth to water = rule 15.10.G
F&R sways = STU legal
Intercooler = 15.10.C.3
CAI = STU legal
TGV's = 15.10.F
Engine mounts = rule 15.10.J
Tranny mount = rule 15.10.N

Am i reading the rules correctly?

New rules this year allow for metal engine mounts by removing certain verbage. Trans mounts must still not increase the total amount of metal in the bushing.

I will go on record here saying...that cheaters...will get it in the end...
Locally it makes no difference...really...unless the 'cheater' is running for points in a class..is knowingly doing just to win a class...then that is wrong...IMO..Bad habits start at local level..and progresses to the top levels...

to me, its like a kid..who hasn't had correct parenting...then when its time..the kid has an attitude and nothing you say or do will change that...

Its the same thing...then when that person gets caught doing something...at a local level..it should be nipped in bud right then and there...not just let him slide...

Bill

I disagree. Google Andy Hollis.

I disagree. Google Andy Hollis.

I assume youre referring to last year, no?

I assume youre referring to last year, no?

I'm referring to the fact that he's still around, autocrossing, period, after the "tow package" incident, and even more so after last year. Especially "around" in the capacity that he is.

I've been denied a lot of podium finishes due to people classing their near-race-modded cars in the stock classes. I may be a relative n00b with only 2 full seasons of AutoXing under my belt, but I'm very competitive and I enjoy running against people with stock-class cars. When you see other STI's, Evos, and 3 series cars with suspension, r-comps, and lightening, it puts us stock runners in the stock classes on the back marker. That's what Prepared, Modified, and Race classes are for.

Liars, cheaters, and people who are too lazy to know better rub me the wrong way. Perhaps that's why I've stopped AutoXing. I'm sick of dealing with those people who have no regard for others.

with suspension, r-comps, and lightening, it puts us stock runners in the stock classes on the back marker. That's what Prepared, Modified, and Race classes are for.

1) R-Comps are legal in Stock as they are DOT legal.
2) Adjustable Shocks/struts are almost open (with some limitations) in stock. (not springs or other suspension bits like camber plates, or adjustable coilovers. Spring must be in the same position as stock).
3) Lightening is an issue if it's not a legal stock part.

--kC

I've been denied a lot of podium finishes due to people classing their near-race-modded cars in the stock classes. I may be a relative n00b with only 2 full seasons of AutoXing under my belt, but I'm very competitive and I enjoy running against people with stock-class cars. When you see other STI's, Evos, and 3 series cars with suspension, r-comps, and lightening, it puts us stock runners in the stock classes on the back marker. That's what Prepared, Modified, and Race classes are for.

Liars, cheaters, and people who are too lazy to know better rub me the wrong way. Perhaps that's why I've stopped AutoXing. I'm sick of dealing with those people who have no regard for others.
Ummmm. R-comps are legal for stock class. So are front swaybars and many brands of adjustable struts, if that's what you mean by "suspension." Granted, springs are not legal, neither are rear sway bar changes, nor any other part of the suspension (control arms, lateral links, etc.).

I was once accused of cheating at a local event by some ignoramuses because I was running a 1LE Z28, which is and always has been completely legal for the class (1LE is the code for an upgraded suspension from the factory -- essentially it's slightly stiffer springs, harder bushings, a bigger FSB and Koni DAs). What was even better was that those same morons had been condenscending towards me before we ran, saying, "Awww, look, the girl is changing her own tires!" :furious: Then they got pissy because they got beat.... badly.

Liars, cheaters and lazy people rub me the wrong way too. But so do people who cry "cheater!" when such a claim is false and based only on the crier's inability to give credit where credit is due.

Karen

[edit] KC was teh f4st3r! ;)

Well turboback exhausts or ECU modifications, or a sum total of points accumulated based on the number of mods made to the car (http://www.motorsportsne.com/2008/rules/MSNE2008_rulesclass.htm) will bump someone out of stock class, and those cars definitely had it. Nonetheless, someone must've got a hold of those drivers and they are now running in classes where they belong.

They were very good drivers to begin with, but can they please pick on people their own size and leave us lowly peons with stockish cars?

If there's one benefit I got out of that whole experience is that their misclassification inspired us to drive faster and push our limits further than if we had been competing only with drivers who legitimately compete in stock class. But this kind of thing can be disheartening for aspiring noobs who want to take AutoXing seriously.

(http://www.motorsportsne.com/2008/rules/MSNE2008_rulesclass.htm)

NASA, for the uninitiated.

NASA, for the uninitiated.

Jesus H. Christ NASA. Although...

NASA... You know the folks in SCCA that regard "Stock" class as just another prep level and that the name shouldn't be taken literally? It's that x100 there.

With 19 points worth of mods before you get upped from your base class, there is no such thing as anywhere near a "stock" car there.

Hmmm 19 points. What would I do that's allowed to a WRX...

Wing: Free.
R-Compounds: Free
Brake Pads: Free
Braided Lines: Free
Single Brake booster (HUGE performance potental alone): Free
Remove ABS: Free
Racing Steering Wheel, remove AirBag: Free
Remove stereo: Free
Remove Sunroof: Free
Add Front Spoiler: Free
All Susupension bushings: Free
Strut Tower Brace: Free
Short Ram intake: Free
DOT-R Compounds: Free
X Brace (Chassis Stiffener): Free
1/2" wider wheels: Free
Cat-back exhaust: Free
Koni Adjustables: 5 Points
Stiffer springs: 5 points
Camber Plates: 5 points
Lighter, Racing Seats: 4 points.
Any lightening allowed by the rules as "free"

Total: 19 points.

There's my build for what you consider 'STOCK' in NASA.

I bolded the only items that are allowed in SCCA stock.

Now, you tell me... which seems more fair as 'stock'?

Your problem is there is no NASA 'stock class' per se. Just as the SCCA's Stock class is the 1st level of preparation (they can call it anything really), NASA's 1st level of prep allows MORE to be done to the car that will annihilate anything remotely 'stock' that shows up.

SCCA seems to be more fair in comparison. :lol:

--kC

I'm cheating at auto-x now, it's cool. :)

I'm cheating at auto-x now, it's hellacool. :)

Fixed.

I just threw up a little in my mouth.

What NASA allows is anyone to show up with their riced out ride that would otherwise be "penalized/moved to a higher prep class" in the SCCA (very common complaint against the SCCA). Great for the show up and drive types because they're going to more than likely remain in the lowest prep class, making them feel all juicy inside that they didn't get bumped.

But what pete noticed...they also provide an outlet to spend tons more $$ and allows MORE modifications for the lowest level of prep than the SCCA to the serious auto-xer, the one that's going to maximize what one can do and still stay within their level of prep.

So, when you get a showup and drive type person, they're going to get decimated more in NASA than SCCA... but either, they're still going to be hella beat vs. a prepped car by a serious autoxer (who also more than likely has hella copious seat time.)

--kC
(Hella)

Heck, 19 points worth of modification is enough to surpass ST and get well into SP-land in SCCA Solo. In some cases, it may even get you booted from SP...

Did I miss R-comps being free? Who's the genius behind THAT?

Who takes NASA autocross seriously anyway?

I found it convenient for me to run with them when we had the Giants Stadium lot, which was 5 minutes away from my house.

Other than that... :unamused:

It's different, that's all... If that ruleset is introduced into a SCCA region, it would definitely show you who the drivers really are because NOBODY's car would be properly prepped. It would take some time to try out the different point combinations to arrive at the optimal selection of mods for your particular car.

In fact, part of me likes the ability to address a particular car's weaknesses, as opposed to the SCCA "one rule fits all" approach. Just don't go into it thinking there is a place for stock (or near-stock) cars to compete.

A lot of folks think that ruleset would eliminate most of the rules arguments we're prone to, while I think they would just get replaced with base class arguments and how many points certain mods are worth arguments.

Hmmm 19 points. What would I do that's allowed to a WRX...

Wing: Free.
R-Compounds: Free

DOT-R Compounds: Free


There's my build for what you consider 'STOCK' in NASA.

I bolded the only items that are allowed in SCCA stock.

Now, you tell me... which seems more fair as 'stock'?

Your problem is there is no NASA 'stock class' per se. Just as the SCCA's Stock class is the 1st level of preparation (they can call it anything really), NASA's 1st level of prep allows MORE to be done to the car that will annihilate anything remotely 'stock' that shows up.

SCCA seems to be more fair in comparison. :lol:

--kC

Those must be some extra sticky tires if you get to use them twice. :lol:

Those must be some extra sticky tires if you get to use them twice. :lol:

Front axle and rear axle. DUH!

--kC

Catbacks, or complete removal of, are allowed in stock as well. You didn't bold that.

Mccannix is cheating! I'm calling you out tomorrow after you beat me! I'm going to go make a giant BS flag so I can wave it tomorrow.

:unamused:

(please don't hurt me too badly :))

Great thread - I have enjoyed reading everyone's opinions on this!

Full disclosure: I am a cheater. :( It isn't meant to be hurtful, but there it is.

I run a handful of local events every year as a BSP STi. I'd run more, but family and work conspire against me. My trunk is debadged and wingless. I broke a ringland late last year at a HPDE, and now have forged drop-in after-market pistons. These technically make me an SM car.

I'm not trying to fool anybody, I just like running BSP against regulars & serious competition, rather than SM against whatever "ricer" showed up that week. The regulars all know they can protest me. However, they let me run as-is for the following reasons:

1) I am a friendly, nice person :)

2) My "offending" modifications are not purposed to offer a competetive advantage

3) I have semi-regular attendance, and enjoy helping the organizers

4) I am an advocate for the benefits of AX

and most importatnly,

5) I never win. :lol:

Maybe this isn't the correct thread for this, but why are all of the Noobs placed into the same noob category and made to compete aginst easch other? Last season I was racing against several highly modded WRX's and EVO's putting down 3x as much power as me. I drive a 100hp Legacy wagon auto. I don't understand why we would be classed t he same just because we are noobs. Those guys should have beaten me based on power alone.
It didn't matter, as I was still placing but a few times I would have been first instead of
3rd.

It was like we all had our respective classes on our car (STS, SM, BSP etc) but we placed a "N" at the end (STSN, SMN, etc). This put us all in the same class because there were only 1 set of noob trophies. So the guy racing SMN who beat the guy running STSN got the 1st place position.

Still a blast, and I am not complaining. I am just wondering why it is done that way. It makes me just want to jump into the regular mix (STS) that way I am not racing SM EVO's with 380hp and coilovers.

I say kill the cheaters!

HAHA nah just kidding, but if it is a problem and they are winning classes and likewise taking away trophies from people who should be getting them even if just locally, it should be stopped. Yes, most of the people probably don`t know that they are misclassed, but it would be wise to inform them to stop it before it gets out of hand

Maybe this isn't the correct thread for this, but why are all of the Noobs placed into the same noob category and made to compete aginst easch other? Last season I was racing against several highly modded WRX's and EVO's putting down 3x as much power as me. I drive a 100hp Legacy wagon auto. I don't understand why we would be classed t he same just because we are noobs. Those guys should have beaten me based on power alone. // In NER SCCA, Novice trophies were based on the spread between your time and either the fastest time in the class or the average of the top 3 - I forget which. And you competed in Novice until you won a Novice trophy.

I've been sticking to the NESHOC high speed events at Devens because they're fun - even in an 06 3.0R wagon. As they say, no cops, no speed limits....

YouTube - Subaru Outback Wagon Autocross

Maybe this isn't the correct thread for this, but why are all of the Noobs placed into the same noob category and made to compete aginst easch other?

A few reasons..

1) Autocross is an experience sport. The more experience you have the better you will do no matter what car you are in. A novice in a 300hp Evo competing against a novice in a 100hp Subaru is better than a Novice in a 100hp Subaru competing aginast a regular in a 100-hp subaru, the times will be closer, and the novice won't feel so discouraged.

2) Most regions will run PAX - which is a handicapping index (like golf or bowling) to make each class "equal" so even if you are in the 100hp car and competing against 300hp cars it "shouldn't" matter.*

3) A slower car is easier to drive than a high-hp unsorted car - if given the choice between a stock Civic and a "400-whp STI on $900 coilovers" I would pick the civic every time, it's going to be easier to get the most out of. Because of that, most novices end up pretty close to the same times anyway. (I had a turbo Corvette ZR1 driver take a swing at me cause he thought that I, as an organizer, cheated to make the girl in the stock saturn outrun him.. )


*South Carolina Region SCCA had been running PAX class for novices for a few years, but, PAX is hard to explain to the first-timer, so we went back and did research over five years and found that the difference between raw times vs PAX times in novice class would have only made a half dozen place finish differences, and no differences in the winners/class champions - so we did away with PAX in novice class and only run raw times now. We also did away with the novice championship totally.



Jon K

A few reasons..

(I had a turbo Corvette ZR1 driver take a swing at me cause he thought that I, as an organizer, cheated to make the girl in the stock saturn outrun him.. )

Jon K

Someone's insecure about his manhood. Stuff like this is why I sympathize with the AX veterans and organizers as well. Sure, retaining fresh blood is important, but some of them just don't belong in motorsports.

A few reasons..




Jon K

Thank you. That was good explanation, and wasn’t belittling (like most replies on NASIOC).

I didn't mind racing against the faster cars it made me push myself. Usually the times between the top 3 are pretty close anyways, and we enjoy frazzling each other. In my region, (Wilmington/Jacksonville, NC) every race is pretty much the same people, so we all like to compare times, talk smack, and congratulate each other like a big dysfunctional family LOL.

Last year was my first season, but was cut short due to a deployment, and some problems with a few mods. I might switch sometime next season to a regular class though. I didn’t race at all this year because I have been gone.

I say kill the cheaters!

HAHA nah just kidding, but if it is a problem and they are winning classes and likewise taking away trophies from people who should be getting them even if just locally, it should be stopped. Yes, most of the people probably don`t know that they are misclassed, but it would be wise to inform them to stop it before it gets out of hand

I used to go to autocrosses and road racing with my Dad in the 70's. People cheated then and people will cheat now. Some people just don't realize they are cheating, some people go to great lengths to concele their cheating, some people just don't care and don't take it serious, some rationalize that a minor variation doesn't give them an advantage and being bumped to the next class would put them at the back of the pack. Some guys locally have gone to the competitors in their class and let them know what part was illegal and let them decide if they wanted him to bump to a different class or stay so they could have more drivers in a given class. Some times they change rules or "clarify" rules making a car or modification illegal and on a regional level they just ignore it because it's stupid (like the CEL delete bs in STU a couple years ago). In the end, a vast majority of us run regional events for fun and it will be up to your local members to figure it out. On a national level, the rules can be so vague or contridictory that it comes down to interpretation. I look at it like this, I don't make my living off of autocrossing and it is more of a social sport than a competitive one at the local level. Obvious cheating is easy to detect and correct, but it gets harder when someone is trying to cheat, they aren't going to make it easy to detect. In an 08 STI I could drive up to the line with a legal boost map, switch it at the line and switch it back before I get back to my place on the grid. For that matter you could flash your car back to stock even if you don't have an 08+ if someone protests you, it takes 30 seconds.

Maybe this isn't the correct thread for this, but why are all of the Noobs placed into the same noob category and made to compete aginst easch other? Last season I was racing against several highly modded WRX's and EVO's putting down 3x as much power as me. I drive a 100hp Legacy wagon auto. I don't understand why we would be classed t he same just because we are noobs. Those guys should have beaten me based on power alone.
It didn't matter, as I was still placing but a few times I would have been first instead of
3rd.

It was like we all had our respective classes on our car (STS, SM, BSP etc) but we placed a "N" at the end (STSN, SMN, etc). This put us all in the same class because there were only 1 set of noob trophies. So the guy racing SMN who beat the guy running STSN got the 1st place position.

Still a blast, and I am not complaining. I am just wondering why it is done that way. It makes me just want to jump into the regular mix (STS) that way I am not racing SM EVO's with 380hp and coilovers.

I never bothered with novice and jumped straight in. I think I got better faster and won my class my second year.

NASA, for the uninitiated.
Since when are DOT-R's "zero points" in NASA?

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/nasa-x/NASA-X_Classes.pdf
1.3.A. TIRES:
1) DOT-approved R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 40 or less (ex. BFG R1,
Hankook Z214, Hoosier R6/A6, Kumho V710, etc.--note: G.A.C. & VRL Hoosiers OK) +10
2) DOT-approved R-compound tires with a UTQG treadwear rating of 50 to 130 (ex. Kumho
V700, Michelin Pilot Sport Cup, Nitto NT01, Pirelli PZero Corsa, Toyo R888,
Yokahama A048, etc.—note: see exception below in 3)) +7
3) Toyo RA-1 and Nitto NT555RII +5
4) Non-DOT-approved racing slicks +30 (of any origin--re-caps and re-treads are not permitted)
5) The following tire sizes will be used as the base tire size for each Base Class for all
vehicles regardless of their OEM tire size(s). All vehicles in a given base class may use
this tire size (or smaller) without a points assessment:

NXR: 335mm, NXU: 315mm, NXS: 305mm, NXA: 295 mm, NXB: 265mm, NXC: 255mm,
NXD: 245mm, NXE: 235mm, NXF: 215mm, NXG: 195mm, NXH: 175mm

That's more like what I remembered NASA's tires rules to be...

In NER SCCA, Novice trophies were based on the spread between your time and either the fastest time in the class or the average of the top 3 - I forget which. And you competed in Novice until you won a Novice trophy.

I've been sticking to the NESHOC high speed events at Devens because they're fun - even in an 06 3.0R wagon. As they say, no cops, no speed limits...

Oh god, NESHOC is gonna get Devens shut down for everyone. Please, ask the NESHOC organizers to a) not setup a course that I would run out of 3rd gear on and b) don't park cars 15 feet off the runway. I've spun off at Devens at 50mph and stopped an easy 80 feet out in the weeds, far past where those cars are parked.

I signed up for this NESHOC event at devens. I've never run with them before. Are these guys really going to get 'crazy'?


I've spun once, in quite a few places, several times at devens at those speeds, and never made it past the "warning track".

I'll be at the next NESHOC event in the S2000, and should have the suspension on by then also.

Nate, S.Haz is running it and I do believe he knows the 'guidelines' after what happened with Wey. Garandman didn't get out of 2nd, even with the off course(s) he had. That course looked to be pretty decent and tight enough to keeps speeds rather reasonable for Devens.

--kC

Oh god, NESHOC is gonna get Devens shut down for everyone. Please, ask the NESHOC organizers to a) not setup a course that I would run out of 3rd gear on and b) don't park cars 15 feet off the runway. I've spun off at Devens at 50mph and stopped an easy 80 feet out in the weeds, far past where those cars are parked.Do you want the organizers emails? There is a small group of people who run most of the events there.

I used to go to autocrosses and road racing with my Dad in the 70's. People cheated then and people will cheat now. Some people just don't realize they are cheating, some people go to great lengths to concele their cheating, some people just don't care and don't take it serious, some rationalize that a minor variation doesn't give them an advantage and being bumped to the next class would put them at the back of the pack. Some guys locally have gone to the competitors in their class and let them know what part was illegal and let them decide if they wanted him to bump to a different class or stay so they could have more drivers in a given class. Some times they change rules or "clarify" rules making a car or modification illegal and on a regional level they just ignore it because it's stupid (like the CEL delete bs in STU a couple years ago). In the end, a vast majority of us run regional events for fun and it will be up to your local members to figure it out. //I drove a 79 Scirocco in the Solo II series back in the day. Of the six Sciroccos that competed regularly, none were remotely legal. It was so ridiculous that I usually referred to them as "Volkswagon-based kit cars." But the justification for most of the changes for most of us was actually to make the cars durable for the time trials at NHMS.

Ironically the most important change - bigger tires on wider wheels - was legal.

My 09 has a lower strut bar and the wheels have 0.65mm too much offset.

its just parking lot racing, who cares?

its just parking lot racing, who cares?

Obviously the people racing. Autocross is mostly a social sport, if someone is cheating to get an advantage it can strain the social relationships. If someones car isn't legal but doesn't have an advantage, no one gets upset.

My trunk is debadged and wingless. I broke a ringland late last year at a HPDE, and now have forged drop-in after-market pistons.

FWIW, debadged is OK. Forged pistons are ok if they aren't lighter and you don't change the quench area (ie, same compression ratio). The only thing bumping you is being wingless...maybe. I don't remember the removal rules, but you can add a spoiler in *SP but not a wing. I think you'd be a solid BSP car.

5) I never win. :lol:

;) There was an ESP car I competed against yesterday with CF hood, trunk, and a PnP'd stock turbo (all illegal). I didn't care because his best time was only 2 seconds faster than my worst time and 5 seconds slower than my best time. If I see him again I'd probably comment just to be fair to everyone else that is competing (ie, a friend got bumped from AS to STU with just an intake).

I think the problem for most of the "starting out" autocrossers is that the typical modifications for the street != autocross mods. Whereas an intake is typical for the street racing crowd, we wouldn't think about it until it became necessary. Deleting cats, etc, same way. Then these people approach the event with "why does my intake matter, you're still beating me!" attitude, to those of us who run in stock class with Hoosiers, custom-valved shocks, that they see give "us" an "unfair" advantage, then are upset when they're approached for being illegal when still losing the class by 10+ seconds.

Their mentality is, win stoplight races first, go autocross second. They want the solo crowd to cater to them.

Hell, I was DQ'ed years ago at one of my first SCCA events. Local HS guy (who due to lack of competition had been dominating in his Corolla on Hoo-Hoos) gets beaten by my stock, automatic 318i on all-seasons. Then he points out my clear corner lights, and my debadged trunk. Disqualified. I ran STS for the rest of the season. I accepted pretty quickly that well, this doesn't make sense, but rules are rules. Future car purchased from then on were taken with solo competiton in mind. Most of the "weekend" autocrossers just show up because they want to go nuts in a parking lot legally. So be it, but stick to my rules.

I know it was brought up already but I'm going to restate it. Its all in how you approach it. "hey are you aware you might be classed wrong, would you like some help?" is a decent approach. I noticed an sts miata with dot-r's he had no idea. He changed to csp and shook my hand and thanked me for letting him know.

You mean... Hey! You're in the wrong ****ing class. Protest! Is the wrong way? Whodathunkit.

--kC

This thread is why I decided to not make a SM car and move on..... I'd have to hand make so much bull**** for a swap (which in itself could be illegal) when the other part I'd possibly use from a newer model would be safer and easier to install without giving any distinct advantage. Again no advantage. IE cross member, but some ***** would make the stink and get their little 3rd place trophy.

Hell, I was DQ'ed years ago at one of my first SCCA events. Local HS guy (who due to lack of competition had been dominating in his Corolla on Hoo-Hoos) gets beaten by my stock, automatic 318i on all-seasons. Then he points out my clear corner lights, and my debadged trunk. Disqualified.
That had to have been a while ago, since those things would fall under the comfort/convenience/appearance clause in Stock now. I think enough people finally pointed out how ridiculous the debadging thing was, and it was finally allowed.

That had to have been a while ago, since those things would fall under the comfort/convenience/appearance clause in Stock now. I think enough people finally pointed out how ridiculous the debadging thing was, and it was finally allowed.

It was in 2005. I didn't care enough to make a fuss about it, either.