http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2007/07/08-prius.html

Toyota is battling with Saturn over the title of the most affordable hybrid on the market. The 2008 Prius reclaims that title with a stripped “Standard” version that will start at $20,950. There will also be the better equipped “Touring” model, which starts at $23,220. Neither price includes a $660 destination charge.

Saturn’s Aura Hybrid isn’t a full hybrid like the Prius, but the Aura enjoyed the honor of being the lowest priced hybrid when it debuted at $22,045 earlier this year.

The 2008 Prius will arrive at dealers in August and, besides the new trim designations, remains basically unchanged from the 2007 model.

forget hybrids, bring over the MINI cooper D

This is an important step. It is going to bring the car more to the mainstream and make it available to more consumers who are more interested in the fuel savings than the image. Maybe it will also shut up those idiots posing as scientists who are trying to say that a Hummer has less environmental impact than a Prius.


But yeah. I really just want a boxer diesel. Just make sure it has at least 170 HP and 280 ft of torque.

There is no one solution to our energy woes.

Diesels are great and all and part of the solution, but hybrids are already here... hell, this is the 2nd-gen hybrid solution.

Waiting for more diesels reminds me of the silly waiting-game that automakers have been playing when it comes to hydrogen cars... according to the automakers they will be here "tomorrow" - unfortunately tomorrow never gets here, so might as well pick the best solution that we have now.

Or just a WRX and drive it like a Grandma. :D

But people should go with whatever works for them and not worry about waiting for the next best thing for too long. I mean people also forget that even a regular civic can get you 40 MPG, if you want it to and you have the patience for it.


That is the thing that appeals to me about diesels. From what I have read, even if you are beating the snot out of a diesel engine it is hard to get bad gas mileage.

Waiting for more diesels reminds me of the silly waiting-game that automakers have been playing when it comes to hydrogen cars... according to the automakers they will be here "tomorrow" - unfortunately tomorrow never gets here, so might as well pick the best solution that we have now.

2 points: hydrogen fueled vehicles are in R&D, diesel fueled cars are more common than gas cars in Europe.

I am personally "waiting" for diesel because I don't need another car yet, my WRX is running great at 100k miles, has been well maintained and I expect to get a few more good years out of her at least. When the time comes for a new car, I'll probably go for gas again anyway simply because there are more choices.

but will this be like the corolla DE (not sure of package) with no AC and not radio and no power door locks and no power windows. Toyota does this to "lower" the price of a car.

I doubt they could get away with it in this segment. They are smarter than that. They probably figured other stuff to take out that people won't notice as much. Like if it has dual zone climate control, it may be gone. Just a guess though.

2 points: hydrogen fueled vehicles are in R&D
And Hydrogen will eternally be in "R&D" if the automakers aren't pushed into bringing it out to market... it's like any other cutting edge technology - if you keep it locked away in the labs waiting to perfect it, it's simply never going to happen. Technology needs to be brought into production to help amortize the costs, trouble-shoot problems and see the true limitations and advantages of the technology. Toyota will soon bring out their THIRD generation hybrid, while almost everyone else is still stuck at the R&D stages.
diesel fueled cars are more common than gas cars in Europe.
Diesels are HUGE in Europe - but you might as well be talking about Pluto, cuz that has next to nothing to do with the US market (unfortunately). Class B (or whatever those ultra-tiny small cars) are popular in Japan, but fat chance seeing them here too. Diesels in the US have only a little more of a chance here now that Mercedes has that Bluetec engine, and Honda and VW have ones in the works. But most of that development is years into the future.

And Hydrogen will eternally be in "R&D" if the automakers aren't pushed into bringing it out to market... it's like any other cutting edge technology - if you keep it locked away in the labs waiting to perfect it, it's simply never going to happen. Technology needs to be brought into production to help amortize the costs, trouble-shoot problems and see the true limitations and advantages of the technology. Toyota will soon bring out their THIRD generation hybrid, while almost everyone else is still stuck at the R&D stages.

Diesels are HUGE in Europe - but you might as well be talking about Pluto, cuz that has next to nothing to do with the US market (unfortunately). Class B (or whatever those ultra-tiny small cars) are popular in Japan, but fat chance seeing them here too. Diesels in the US have only a little more of a chance here now that Mercedes has that Bluetec engine, and Honda and VW have ones in the works. But most of that development is years into the future.

VW is going to have the Jetta in January and Honda in late 2008. Very close.

There is no one solution to our energy woes.

Diesels are great and all and part of the solution, but hybrids are already here... hell, this is the 2nd-gen hybrid solution.

Waiting for more diesels reminds me of the silly waiting-game that automakers have been playing when it comes to hydrogen cars... according to the automakers they will be here "tomorrow" - unfortunately tomorrow never gets here, so might as well pick the best solution that we have now.

So have you purchased a hybrid yet?

But yeah. I really just want a boxer diesel. Just make sure it has at least 170 HP and 280 ft of torque.

Subaru will have one available in Europe soon. 2.0, 170 hp, 250 ft-lb, 40 mpg IIRC

Hazdaz: this engine could also come to the US if Subaru thinks it will sell

I though Subaru is going to sell a diesel next summer?

Accord Diesel for me in 2009. :)

And Hydrogen will eternally be in "R&D" if the automakers aren't pushed into bringing it out to market... it's like any other cutting edge technology - if you keep it locked away in the labs waiting to perfect it, it's simply never going to happen. Technology needs to be brought into production to help amortize the costs, trouble-shoot problems and see the true limitations and advantages of the technology. Toyota will soon bring out their THIRD generation hybrid, while almost everyone else is still stuck at the R&D stages.

Diesels are HUGE in Europe - but you might as well be talking about Pluto, cuz that has next to nothing to do with the US market (unfortunately). Class B (or whatever those ultra-tiny small cars) are popular in Japan, but fat chance seeing them here too. Diesels in the US have only a little more of a chance here now that Mercedes has that Bluetec engine, and Honda and VW have ones in the works. But most of that development is years into the future.

I see your point about keeping it in the lab, however, I'm also quite certain that no auto manufacturer will roll out technology that is not going to work. The transmission and distribution system for hydrogen as a fuel is a big hurdle today. I think the next step in terms of R&D is going to come from gas turbine power plants. These engines can burn a 90/10 blend hydrogen/natural gas with no modifications, and they burn a lot of fuel...like $150 million a year for a 2X1 combined cycle plant of ~500MW. These installations will provide the beginnings of infrastructure and we will learn a lot about how to create, store and transport hydrogen as a fuel.

As far as diesel goes, I strongly disagree that we are talking about Pluto. The thing that's been holding the European's from exporting their technology has been the high sulfur content of US fuel oil - like 2 orders of magnitude higher than European fuel. US standards have finally caught up, and with urea injection, we will have oil burners here in a matter of months.

Finally, the unfortunate reality is that very small cars are just not safe here in the US because of the large number of pick up trucks and large SUV's on the road...

Toyota will soon bring out their THIRD generation hybrid, while almost everyone else is still stuck at the R&D stages.


Ford has hybrids, GM has hybrids, Nissan has hybrids, Honda has hybrids (all in production/for sale) and Chrysler is introducing hybrids. Only the small manufacturers are lacking hybrids, and due to it's cost they'll likely buy it from someone else.

Tom

As far as diesel goes, I strongly disagree that we are talking about Pluto. The thing that's been holding the European's from exporting their technology has been the high sulfur content of US fuel oil - like 2 orders of magnitude higher than European fuel. US standards have finally caught up, and with urea injection, we will have oil burners here in a matter of months.


We'll get a couple diesels, but they are much more expensive to produce. They won't show up in cars competing on price until CAFE forces the issue, methinks.

Tom

Ford has hybrids, GM has hybrids, Nissan has hybrids, Honda has hybrids (all in production/for sale) and Chrysler is introducing hybrids. Only the small manufacturers are lacking hybrids, and due to it's cost they'll likely buy it from someone else.

Tom

Yes but Ford and Nissan both use Toyota's hybrid technology.

So what's missing in the stripped version?

Ford has hybrids, GM has hybrids, Nissan has hybrids, Honda has hybrids (all in production/for sale) and Chrysler is introducing hybrids. Only the small manufacturers are lacking hybrids, and due to it's cost they'll likely buy it from someone else.


Like was mentioned above - Nissan uses Toyota technology, and Ford has licensed Toyota's patents and is supplied by a division of Toyota. GM has only been doing 'mild' hybrids up until this point. Honda is the only other maker with a real serious attempt. Who else is there? Mitsu? Chrysler? VW? BMW? Mercedes? Nope.

It's much more than just the "small manufacturers" that are lacking. This could easily become a cash-cow for Toyota, where it supplies nearly the entire industry - including it's fiercest rivals - with hybrid technology.

I don't get the hybrid fad.

If you're concerned about gas mileage a diesel can get the same mileage as the current hybrids.

If you're concerned about the environment, the hybrid may get slightly lower emissions than the diesel but a diesel doesn't require nearly as much energy to produce, doesn't require strip mining the earth for precious metals and then producing the chemicals for the batteries. Doesn't require disposal of said chemicals at the end of it's lifecycle.

Besides if you're really concerned with the environment you're better off buying a used 5-10 year old diesel VW or high MPG Civic or something. A lot of energy, pollution, and wasted resources are created from people purchasing new vehicles every couple of years.

Best hybrid ever: the bicycle with an electric motor. :lol:

Yes but Ford and Nissan both use Toyota's hybrid technology.

http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/RT2005FordEscapeHybrid.htm

Rumor on the street is that Escape Hybrid is using the hybrid system out of Toyota’s Prius. This is absolutely false. Ford Motor Company developed and engineered the hybrid system and possesses 100 patents on the design. The Atkinson engine is an adaptation of the 2.3 Liter Duratec I 4 found in Ranger, Escape, and 2005 Focus. The eCVT is manufactured by Aisin AW specifically for Escape.

Of the 351 patents covering the hybrid drivetrain, Ford did feel compelled to pay license fees to Toyota on 21 of them. This was done simply to avoid any patent infringement controversies.


Ford licensed some of the tech (& Aisin, the trans mfr, is part of the 'Toyota group'), but Ford designed thier own system.

I'd say there is a lot of hybrid know-how in a lot of other companies besides Toyota.

Tom

Besides if you're really concerned with the environment you're better off buying a used 5-10 year old diesel VW or high MPG Civic or something. A lot of energy, pollution, and wasted resources are created from people purchasing new vehicles every couple of years.

Because old diesels are crappy and Civics are tiny. Batteries are recyclable FYI. I'd gladly drive a Prius if I had room for two cars.

http://www.gulfcoastnews.com/RT2005FordEscapeHybrid.htm

Ford licensed some of the tech (& Aisin, the trans mfr, is part of the 'Toyota group'), but Ford designed thier own system.

I'd say there is a lot of hybrid know-how in a lot of other companies besides Toyota.

Tom

I said technology not system. There is a big difference in cost and risk to the company between the two.

Because old diesels are crappy and Civics are tiny. Batteries are recyclable FYI. I'd gladly drive a Prius if I had room for two cars.


Yea batteries are recyclable, but they don't turn them into new batteries. They recover the metals from the batteries for use in producing different steel alloys. We've got strip mines for when new batteries are needed. A little over half the weight of the battery is recyclable, everything else is waste. Plus it requires a lot of energy to recycle batteries.

The late 90's through present diesel VW's are good and get great gas mileage. It doesn't even have to be a high MPG diesel VW though. From an environmental standpoint it would be much better for a person to buy a used late 90's civic that gets 30 some MPG than to go out and buy a brand new Prius.

Yea batteries are recyclable, but they don't turn them into new batteries. They recover the metals from the batteries for use in producing different steel alloys. We've got strip mines for when new batteries are needed. A little over half the weight of the battery is recyclable, everything else is waste. Plus it requires a lot of energy to recycle batteries.

I'm sure the recycling process will improve as everything does with time.

The late 90's through present diesel VW's are good and get great gas mileage. It doesn't even have to be a high MPG diesel VW though. From an environmental standpoint it would be much better for a person to buy a used late 90's civic that gets 30 some MPG than to go out and buy a brand new Prius.

It would be even better if people stopped buying Hummers and bought used Civics but unfortunately we are constrained by reality.

I'll go out on a limb and say Hummers are good for the environment in a sense. We're going to burn all our fossil fuels sooner or later. If we all switched over to high MPG vehicles tomorrow, there would just be more fuel to burn in industrial plants, ships, trains, trucks, aircraft, etc, all of which have less emission controls and electronics for efficient combustion than a hummer. ;)

I don't think we should all be driving Hummers, just playing devils advocate.

We will never burn all of our fossil fuels--its pure economics. A tweak if someone's analogy: Let's say you love to drink beer (oil) and I gave you a football stadium (planet) full of beer and told you that you could drink all you want with one catch--you have to throw all of the empty bottles back into the pile. The point would come (other than you'd die or be really drunk :) ) that it would be too much if a pain in the ass to find some full bottles. The point being that one day the cost of exploration will FORCE us to a new technology. But that day is WAY off by using coal and other carbon derivatives for fuel.

I said technology not system. There is a big difference in cost and risk to the company between the two.

You should read the article he linked. Ford developed the technology/system completely on their own.

We will never burn all of our fossil fuels--its pure economics. A tweak if someone's analogy: Let's say you love to drink beer (oil) and I gave you a football stadium (planet) full of beer and told you that you could drink all you want with one catch--you have to throw all of the empty bottles back into the pile. The point would come (other than you'd die or be really drunk :) ) that it would be too much if a pain in the ass to find some full bottles. The point being that one day the cost of exploration will FORCE us to a new technology. But that day is WAY off by using coal and other carbon derivatives for fuel.

Yea, that's what I meant, but I didn't feel like going through the explanation that you did. Point is we're going to get to that point one way or the other. We can burn the fuel in hummers with emission controls, or in industrial plants in China with no emission controls.

I'm sure the recycling process will improve as everything does with time.
Power companies are starting to look for the old batteries as usually when a pack goes bad, it's just a couple cells that make it work poorly. They then either jumper the dead cells or replace them and use them for battery backup power where even tired cells with reduced capacity still function very well. That is pretty much the ultimate in recycling.

Once LiIon batteries go mainstream in the next couple years, you won't have to worry about strip mining for nickel used in NiMH any more.

stil have no info as to how "stripped" this car will be.

my guess is no screen, no power windows, locks, AC, manual tranny.

might actually do better on economy. but who'd want to drive it. Toyota has been making cars of this spec for years, in low volume, to get people in the door. Then they turn them to cars that are thousands more with the features they want. People would rather buy whats in front of them than comparison shop.

There is no way to put a manual tranny into a Prius.

I also highly doubt they'll sell a $20,950 car without power windows or locks. There's no way I'd spend that much on a car without power windows and locks. Well, OK, maybe if it got 100mpg instead of 50, but then for another $1200 I'd likely pay for the convenience (and power windows/locks aren't likely to cost that much).

I would guess that steel wheels would be the first thing to go on to save money. I could see the screen going, too, but if I were buying a Prius (and I might) getting the screen is half the fun of driving the thing.

The late 90's through present diesel VW's are good and get great gas mileage. It doesn't even have to be a high MPG diesel VW though. From an environmental standpoint it would be much better for a person to buy a used late 90's civic that gets 30 some MPG than to go out and buy a brand new Prius.

Well diesel still uses fossil fuels, which is what we are trying to avoid. Biodiesel using sources such as corn is not the way to go as it costs a lot more to grow/harvest/convert the corn than what we get out of it. I'm sure that there are better biodiesel being R&D but whether it makes it compared to corn-based I'm not sure (a lot of support for the corn industry etc).

Hybrids are available now, and have the extra benefit that you have no emissions on a stop (perfect for city and rush hour traffic). Their biggest "downfall" is that they are not great for highway driving.

Hybrid (non-corn based) biodiesels would be great, but I think a fully electric car would be best (environmentally wised).

Regardless, I think it's great that there is this push for more environmentally friendly cars and that based on the numbers, they are being fairly well received. Sure diesels are great, but I liked to see less reliance on fossil fuels (or corn).

Hybrids are available now, and have the extra benefit that you have no emissions on a stop (perfect for city and rush hour traffic). Their biggest "downfall" is that they are not great for highway driving.

This really is only true when looking at the EPA numbers. How it works out in real life depends on your situation. In our case, we've found that it's easy to get the EPA numbers on the highway - between 50-52mpg - and absolutely ****ing impossible to get the EPA numbers in town. The upshot is that we end up getting better highway numbers than city. Saying Hybrids are "not great" on the highway is misleading. 52mpg is "great" on the highway, imo.

This really is only true when looking at the EPA numbers. How it works out in real life depends on your situation. In our case, we've found that it's easy to get the EPA numbers on the highway - between 50-52mpg - and absolutely ****ing impossible to get the EPA numbers in town. The upshot is that we end up getting better highway numbers than city. Saying Hybrids are "not great" on the highway is misleading. 52mpg is "great" on the highway, imo.

What do you typically get in the city with the car? Do you use the AC a lot, little, etc? What kind of roads do you drive on? I just want to know out of curiosity for real world numbers.

What do you typically get in the city with the car? Do you use the AC a lot, little, etc? What kind of roads do you drive on? I just want to know out of curiosity for real world numbers.

Yeah, it's hard to generalize since all the things you mention can have a profound effect on performance (see my post in OT on our recent problems with the Prius). We used to see between 48-50mpg with my wifes 45 minute commute on well-paved backroads with rolling hills. As we've moved into the city and her commute is more like 10 minutes, mileage has dropped significantly in the summer since the car spends so much energy on cooling off the cabin that it can't use that energy for the drivetrain - so we've hit a rock-bottom of around 38mpg recently. :eek: That should improve greatly while the weather gets better, but it will be interesting to see if the short commute also doesn't allow enough time for the battery to get a good charge going independent of the AC.

Yeah, it's hard to generalize since all the things you mention can have a profound effect on performance (see my post in OT on our recent problems with the Prius). We used to see between 48-50mpg with my wifes 45 minute commute on well-paved backroads with rolling hills. As we've moved into the city and her commute is more like 10 minutes, mileage has dropped significantly in the summer since the car spends so much energy on cooling off the cabin that it can't use that energy for the drivetrain - so we've hit a rock-bottom of around 38mpg recently. :eek: That should improve greatly while the weather gets better, but it will be interesting to see if the short commute also doesn't allow enough time for the battery to get a good charge going independent of the AC.



I just saw your post in OT before coming back to this thread. That answered my questions. Your C/N's for that post were right on with my conditions. Miami, FL (hot as hell) with shorter commutes and not using the AC is not a option. That is why I bought a 88 CRX for $1500 with mid 30's mileage. It is flat terrain, but lots of stop and go all over the county really.

Yeah, sounds like you made the right call.

Yeah, sounds like you made the right call.

Plus the maintainence and insurance costs are really low and I can do almost all the work on the car. My budget could not afford the prius or similar newer hybird/high mileage car really and still keep the STi for autox/track/etc.

Well diesel still uses fossil fuels, which is what we are trying to avoid.

Uh, so do hybrids. There are diesels that get the same MPG as the hybrids, which means they are burning the same amount of fossil fuels. Less actually if you take biodiesel into account.

And fully electric cars are still getting their energy from the power grid that is for the most part fossil fueled.

This really is only true when looking at the EPA numbers. How it works out in real life depends on your situation. In our case, we've found that it's easy to get the EPA numbers on the highway - between 50-52mpg - and absolutely ****ing impossible to get the EPA numbers in town. The upshot is that we end up getting better highway numbers than city. Saying Hybrids are "not great" on the highway is misleading. 52mpg is "great" on the highway, imo.

Wow that's pretty interesting and good to know - is this the same in general (year round)?, or do you find the poor city mileage happens moreso in the summer than the winter months?

Eby:
Oh definitely, I can't say that I agree w/ coal burning plants either. But running off the power grid is more efficient than burning gasoline or diesel.
I do hope that a viable biodiesel solution becomes popular. Are diesels better than gasoline hybrids?, possibly - but I do like the fact that in a hybrid there is zero emissions during a stop. Why no diesel hybrids so that you get the best of both worlds?

My dad has a Prius and has found that the biggest killer to fuel economy is cold starts. To improve emissions on cold starts, the engine runs a lot more so fuel economy is reduced until the engine warms up.

So if all you do is short trips which start with the engine cold or the weather gets cold, mileage will go down. Once the engine warms up, city mileage goes up.

Regular cars suffer from the same thing but the effect doesn't appear to be as drastic since you don't have a nifty digital MPG gauge telling you how bad it is.

A common trick to improve cold weather economy in the Prius is to block the grill using pipe insulation slit in half and stuffed into the grill, it speeds up warmup time significantly. It's only a matter of time until they start making a mechanical grill which opens/closes depending on coolant temps, that would improve economy on all cars.

For those touting diesel, while diesel engines are more efficient, part of the apparent efficiency comes from the fact that diesel is ~13% more energy dense than gasoline and therefore a diesel with the same economy as a gas engine still emits 13% more CO2 and still aren't as clean at the tailpipe as the gas car (though by the time the new clean diesels get on the market here in the USA in the next couple years they will be much better).

Using biodiesel as an argument that diesels are better for the environment doesn't hold since you can always use ethanol as a fuel in gas cars - more and more cars are being built flex-fuel capable.

IMO hybrids are a great stepping stone towards fully electric cars. Plug-in hybrids from a major manufacturer will be on the market in the next 3 years or so. Toyota is testing them on the road in Japan right now. An electric car running on electricity generated by dirty coal is still a lot more efficient and cleaner than a gas/diesel powered car and in a lot of places that energy is renewable/clean and more renewable/clean electricity is put online every day.