I went on a little tuning trip to Reno last weekend and figured I'd post my favorite car of the weekend.

This is an 05 STI with an FP Green (8cm, 3" inlet), Deatschwerks 850cc sidefeed injectors (soon to be released), walbro, APS inlet pipe, APS 70mm CAI, APS TMIC, Hallman MBC, Perrin EL headers, Catless TBE, Tial 44mm EWG, AP V2.

Tuning at elevation is very interesting and educational. Its tough to get decent spool up there and you really have to take a bit of a different approach to optimize overall power.

We started with a mild 91 Octane tune at 20psi peak. This map was very quick and lots of fun to drive. There is certainly more lag at 5k feet but as long as you're above 4k RPM, throttle response is excellent and there is absolutely no lag between gears. I attribute this mostly to the free flowing intake and TMIC. Here's the plot for 91 Octane:
http://www.eqtuning.com/dynos/reno/jm05sti91.png


We then put in 5 gallons of C16 and started dialing in the race gas map:
http://www.eqtuning.com/dynos/reno/jm05sti116.png

We ended up with a peak of 25psi tapering off to about 20psi by redline. The turbo actually wouldn't make any more boost at this elevation even with the EWG completely shut. I set a/f around 11.8-11.9 under full load and started advancing timing. The car kept taking more and more advance without any hint of knock. In fact there wasn't a single knock event during the entire C16 tune. We kept testing extremely hard and quick shifting, very high loads in 5th gear and there was never a single knock event.

After a while the additional advance wasn't making the same huge gains, so we decided to leave it at that. We could have likely hit 400whp, but the car was already scary fast and having this kind of performance with such a safe and consistent tune is just awesome. 1st gear kicks hard and is over extremely quickly, a quick shift to 2nd doesn't chirp, but actually lights up the tires, and another quick shift chirps 3rd gear! In general 1st-4th are gone in a fury before you know it and 5th just pins you in the seat for as long as you dare stay on it. I was extremely impressed that we could get this level of performance at altitude and still maintain great throttle response above 4k RPM. And all this on a TMIC :).

Thanks
-- Ed

so since on your dyno 330whp gets one into the mid-high 11's, dare I saw this car at sea level might be whooping some major arse?

Ed IS the man!! :D

i like your aps set up....goign to copy :)

In general, wouldn't you be able to squeeze more power out of a FMIC setup?

what kind of dyno is this on? I know a dyno is just a tuning tool, but the #s' seem low. I am just saying this as my car has a similar set up, except internally gated and a dr525 fmic, put down 392/390 @ 2000' and the temp was 114 degrees....on 100 octane. My car also had a problem holding 25psi on the 100 map, but the culprit seems to have been a weak waste gate actuator.... wouldn't hold the waste gate closed and would taper boost as well.
Funny thing is the 91 map is comparable to mine, minus loss of hp/trq due to altitude 342 whp.

BTW .... i know all about altitude and bad gas unfortunately since I live in Vegas. I could only imagine what double the altitude would do to my car

lol the low numbers is always gonna be a losing battle since everyone is used to see higher reading dynos. this dyno reads low, stock stis do 215-225whp tops.

what kind of dyno is this on? I know a dyno is just a tuning tool, but the #s' seem low. I am just saying this as my car has a similar set up, except internally gated and a dr525 fmic, put down 392/390 @ 2000' and the temp was 114 degrees....on 100 octane. My car also had a problem holding 25psi on the 100 map, but the culprit seems to have been a weak waste gate actuator.... wouldn't hold the waste gate closed and would taper boost as well.
Funny thing is the 91 map is comparable to mine, minus loss of hp/trq due to altitude 342 whp.

BTW .... i know all about altitude and bad gas unfortunately since I live in Vegas. I could only imagine what double the altitude would do to my car

As has been stated, this software reads almost dead on with the lower reading mustang and DD dyno's. Stock STI's make 215-225whp, 270whp is good for 107-108mph traps and 330whp is good for 115-117mph traps.

Thanks
-- Ed

lol the low numbers is always gonna be a losing battle since everyone is used to see higher reading dynos. this dyno reads low, stock stis do 215-225whp tops.

thats why I asked, the dyno I was tuned on base lines a sti @225whp

Killer Ed!

Was there an AWD dyno in Reno last weekend??? I was under the impression that the closest dyno was is Sac-town... Just curious..

Ed's dyno is software.

What kind of timing were you able to run at that altitude on the c16 map? Being able to hold 20psi at 5k ASL, is strong....do you think it was due to the ext. wg? Would say an 8cm internally gated Green hold similar psi?

And this dyno software of yours, is it available publicily? How does it work, off of acceleration?

Very nice Ed! What gear were your plots done on?

Shame you can't hold boost on the top end!

-Jorge

What kind of timing were you able to run at that altitude on the c16 map? Being able to hold 20psi at 5k ASL, is strong....do you think it was due to the ext. wg? Would say an 8cm internally gated Green hold similar psi?

And this dyno software of yours, is it available publicily? How does it work, off of acceleration?

It's most likely going to work like other commercially available road dyno software out there, working off of an RPM pickup. Then you feed in atmospheric information, barometric pressure, coefficient of drag, gear ratio's, weight, etc. and it will be able to spit out a very faithful and accurate HP number, no less consistent then any other dyno. The key is in getting the inputs right.

Years before I started working here I actually used a very similar product that yielded similar results http://www.roaddyno.com/ <-- was cost effective and repeatable.

-Jorge

Was there an AWD dyno in Reno last weekend??? I was under the impression that the closest dyno was is Sac-town... Just curious..

This is from my road dyno software that reads very almost dead on with lower reading mustang dyno's. It works off any log that has RPM data and a time reference and using parameters such as tire size, weight, gearing, aero data, etc, it calculates the car's on-road acceleration and determines the whp and wtq from that. Its extremely consistent and repeatable and the numbers have been backed up by track times many times.

Thanks
-- Ed

What kind of timing were you able to run at that altitude on the c16 map? Being able to hold 20psi at 5k ASL, is strong....do you think it was due to the ext. wg? Would say an 8cm internally gated Green hold similar psi?

And this dyno software of yours, is it available publicily? How does it work, off of acceleration?


On the C16, the car is running 21-22* on spoolup and as much as 28* by redline. The amazing part is that it was still taking more and more without a single knock event, we just didn't feel the need to push it any further.

I actually would have expected this turbo to hold more boost, but I suppose 20psi is good at 5k ft. I'm not sure if the EWG is helping in that regard... all it was doing was staying completely closed :D.

As far as the road dyno software, this is something I developed about 4 years ago for my own personal use. I started with some other road dyno options available but was unhappy with some of their shortcomings so I decided to write my own. I don't make it available to the public mainly to keep the numbers and results consistent and trustworthy. Its just too easy for someone to do a pull down hill or fudge some of the parameters to get higher numbers. Once that happens enough, my own numbers will start to mean very little. Anyway, for the time being I have decided to keep this as a proprietary tool. I have offered services to people where they e-mail me some logs along with the necessary data, then I plot and send them the power curves.

-- Ed

Very nice Ed! What gear were your plots done on?

Shame you can't hold boost on the top end!

-Jorge

All my STI plots are done in 4th gear. I know what you're thinking... a bit laggy ;). This was definitely laggier than I generally expect for a Green, but considering the non-coated headers and elevation, I think its right on. I generally find that bigger turbo cars spool up a good 400-500 RPM later up there. Once they spool, however, you can really make the torque even on our 91 octane which is sometimes very difficult to do down at sea level.

-- Ed

All my STI plots are done in 4th gear. I know what you're thinking... a bit laggy ;). This was definitely laggier than I generally expect for a Green, but considering the non-coated headers and elevation, I think its right on. I generally find that bigger turbo cars spool up a good 400-500 RPM later up there. Once they spool, however, you can really make the torque even on our 91 octane which is sometimes very difficult to do down at sea level.

-- Ed

Honestly, no I wasn't thinking anything bad, having done some stuff up there myself, I think it's a pretty damn good job for that housing.

I can give credit where it's due ya know. ;)

-Jorge

On the C16, the car is running 21-22* on spoolup and as much as 28* by redline. The amazing part is that it was still taking more and more without a single knock event, we just didn't feel the need to push it any further.

I actually would have expected this turbo to hold more boost, but I suppose 20psi is good at 5k ft. I'm not sure if the EWG is helping in that regard... all it was doing was staying completely closed :D.

-- Ed

Dear lord:eek: ....that is some timing even on c16! I would think on the 91 they would be lower, but even taking the usual 6* or so off, that is still some impressive timing advance. I wonder if the thinner air allows some additional timing....

...
Years before I started working here I actually used a very similar product that yielded similar results http://www.roaddyno.com/ <-- was cost effective and repeatable.

-Jorge

Thanks for the link Jorge...I'll have to check into it:)

Honestly, no I wasn't thinking anything bad, having done some stuff up there myself, I think it's a pretty damn good job for that housing.

I can give credit where it's due ya know. ;)

-Jorge


:lol: I really wasn't taking it in any negative way. The boost threshold actually surprised me as well because smaller turbo cars tend to not be nearly as heavily effected. The nice thing is that even though the threshold is relatively high, boost and throttle response is excellent above about 4500 RPM. There is almost no lag on quick throttle tip-in and quick shifts.


Also, I almost forgot to mention one of my favorite parts about this car. It holds a completely stable and effortless idle at 750RPM and drives completely like stock. Looking at the idle and drivability you would never guess that its running 850cc injectors and a big MAF intake. I attribute this to the combination of the APS 70mm which is the best big MAF pull-through intake I've worked with and of course the soon to be released Deatschwerks 850cc sidefeeds. These injectors were just awesome. Extremely easy to control at idle and low flow rates and completely consistent and linear operation. While in Reno I also tuned a couple cars with PE850's and the straight comparison really hit home how well these injectors run. These days I can get the PE's idling and running pretty well with enough time, but there is still an occasional jump or stumble at idle and unsightly drivability issues. With the Deatschwerks I spent all of 5-10 minutes getting them to idle just like the stockers and the rest of the fuel map fell into place quickly. This is by far my favorite 850cc offering available.

Thanks
-- Ed

Dear lord:eek: ....that is some timing even on c16! I would think on the 91 they would be lower, but even taking the usual 6* or so off, that is still some impressive timing advance. I wonder if the thinner air allows some additional timing....

The 91 map is running about 13-14* on spoolup and about 19* by redline. I found that the knock threshold is definitely improved at altitude and allows for significantly more advance. Of course you actually have to run that additional advance if you want to optimize power at elevation.

Thanks
-- Ed

...I generally find that bigger turbo cars spool up a good 400-500 RPM later up there...
I see exactly the same thing here in Bend. I'm tuned at sea-level, and everything happens significantly slower and lower once I'm back up here. Power, spool, you name it. It's just the way it is.

Ed, I find it so relieving that in a world where so many tuners let people go with tunes that are are basically altered base maps you take the time to do really work with your customer. If I was still going with my sti I know I would take it to you.
I do have one question, and I know you covered it with UltimateLurker's thread, and my many aim convos, but this customer is using a mbc. Will he need a retune when he comes to sea level or if temps change dramatically as they do in reno. I am just confused because on one hand all the dsm world and evos use mbc for their amazing spool up, but its such a stigma on these forums. Do you think if someone drove through a lot of elevation and temperature changes, would a mbc be a bad idea? Thanks so much!

Ed, I find it so relieving that in a world where so many tuners let people go with tunes that are are basically altered base maps you take the time to do really work with your customer. If I was still going with my sti I know I would take it to you.
I do have one question, and I know you covered it with UltimateLurker's thread, and my many aim convos, but this customer is using a mbc. Will he need a retune when he comes to sea level or if temps change dramatically as they do in reno. I am just confused because on one hand all the dsm world and evos use mbc for their amazing spool up, but its such a stigma on these forums. Do you think if someone drove through a lot of elevation and temperature changes, would a mbc be a bad idea? Thanks so much!

Thanks for the comments.

As far as the MBC, it will not need to be adjusted for temperature variances. Its true that boost will be slightly higher in colder weather, but that's totally appropriate and even desired IMO. The elevation issue, however, needs a bit more attention. In general when I do these high elevation tunes I advise the customer that I would like to at least check the car out before they drive it hard at sea level. Once you truly optimize the tune for elevation, the tune will not necessarily be appropriate for sea level and vice versa. The same goes for the MBC. Boost levels will likely rise as the car gets closer to sea level and this needs to be taken into consideration. Either the MBC needs to be adjusted or the tune needs to be set up for the variance in boost levels. Ideally the ECU would have trims available for fuel and timing based on baro pressure, but that's not the case (or we just don't have access to those parameters yet). Such trims are available for boost control but of course those are useless when using an MBC or EBC.

Thanks
-- Ed

I see exactly the same thing here in Bend. I'm tuned at sea-level, and everything happens significantly slower and lower once I'm back up here. Power, spool, you name it. It's just the way it is.

That's very true, but I'm actually surprised how much of the power you can make back by optimizing the tune for the elevation. Having a turbo helps overcome the thinner air, but again, you really have to tune it specifically for that.

One other thing to note is that most tuned done at sea level will actually lean out at higher elevations. This is something very important to consider.

-- Ed

can't wait to do this @ 600ft

That's very true, but I'm actually surprised how much of the power you can make back by optimizing the tune for the elevation. Having a turbo helps overcome the thinner air, but again, you really have to tune it specifically for that.

One other thing to note is that most tuned done at sea level will actually lean out at higher elevations. This is something very important to consider.

-- Ed



i thought the air was thinner at higher altitudes, wouldnt that make the cars run rich??

i thought the air was thinner at higher altitudes, wouldnt that make the cars run rich??

That's definitely the initial intuition. However it seems that the MAF sensor is effected otherwise at altitude and the cars end up leaning out.

-- Ed

...the MAF sensor is effected otherwise at altitude and the cars end up leaning out.
This has been documented by other tuners as well. It's fairly small, but it's there. You'd think it would "learn" most of it back, but it doesn't seem to get it all - it makes you wonder what the ECU knows that perhaps we don't. :lol:

Ed,
Thank you so much for tuning my car i do agree we had some fun driving that car around with the race gas...I also what to say i am glad my car was your favorite car of the weekend. I do try hard to get this thing ready for you when you to come up so there is no problems i am going to the track on Tuesday 21st and hoping for the 11's like you said ..And of course the new set-up will be coming soon and that's were we are going to have the most fun..To everyone on here i just want you to know if you don't already this Ed is a great tuner and he is very easy to work with i would recommend anyone who is close or willing to drive to him to be tuned by him. Ed i can't thank you enough for your help and look forward to seeing you up here again soon. Remember the shop opens Mid Next month so we might keep you busy.....:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ed,
Thank you so much for tuning my car i do agree we had some fun driving that car around with the race gas...I also what to say i am glad my car was your favorite car of the weekend. I do try hard to get this thing ready for you when you to come up so there is no problems i am going to the track on Tuesday 21st and hoping for the 11's like you said ..And of course the new set-up will be coming soon and that's were we are going to have the most fun..To everyone on here i just want you to know if you don't already this Ed is a great tuner and he is very easy to work with i would recommend anyone who is close or willing to drive to him to be tuned by him. Ed i can't thank you enough for your help and look forward to seeing you up here again soon. Remember the shop opens Mid Next month so we might keep you busy.....:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Jason Your car is amazing and I can't wait for Ed to tune my car once again. You pretty much covered everything that needs to be said about him and It's all true.Ed is "THE MAN"
I have met other tuners and have never had as much fun and been able to speak to a tuner like Ed. I also recommened him as " the tuner to go to" even if it's a 4-5 hour drive!!:)

I too got my car tuned by Ed on this trip. Although my numbers were no where near Jasons, the car is much smoother and holds power all the way to redline. I learned I need to learn how to drive to optimize my mods. I hope Jason can organize another Tuning trip soon. Thanks to Ed and Jason.

Another great tune by Ed! Congrats on your newfound power bro.

We need to get those injectors in there for you call me when you get a chance Mike so we can set something up..thanks for coming back the same day so we could get your car done..i hope you enjoying it :)

I too got my car tuned by Ed on this trip. Although my numbers were no where near Jasons, the car is much smoother and holds power all the way to redline. I learned I need to learn how to drive to optimize my mods. I hope Jason can organize another Tuning trip soon. Thanks to Ed and Jason.

Nice numbers. Hope I can pull that much power out of my green setup!

Thanx For Post

WOW those are great numbers Jason!! I cant wait till I get my car tuned!

We got to get Ed back up here....It might take alot....:D

WOW those are great numbers Jason!! I cant wait till I get my car tuned!

We got to get Ed back up here....It might take alot....:D

I'll be happy to come back up if there are enough cars.

-- Ed

Nice Graph ED... The numbers are a little deflated though.. :D :p
The power band on the c-16 looks sick!!
What were you seeing peak boost at with the elevation?

Nice Graph ED... The numbers are a little deflated though.. :D :p
The power band on the c-16 looks sick!!
What were you seeing peak boost at with the elevation?

I like em deflated :p

Peak boost was around 25psi and tapered off to about 20. The turbo simply wouldn't make any more boost up there with the EWG completely shut. This was a bit of a surprise to me but it seems like the power is there anyway. The powerband on the C16 tune is pretty wicked... every time you shift you land very close to peak torque which just kicks you in the ass really hard.

-- Ed

DAMN...

nice tuning again ED
nice set up man

if im goin to upgrade turbo FPgreen is the way to go
im goin to try to pursuit that next summer to run very low 11s or maybe 10.999 on FPGREEN
thats IF ED its up for the challenge

damn congrats on the power man
and have fun with it

Thank you ..very much bro it means alot to have that coming from you. I copied you at first but i found out that its your driving thatis making you really fast and i can't copy that..:) . Ed is the man what can i say and i am sure when i get to sea level we should have some fun...And i think ed would be up for that challenge...:)

DAMN...

nice tuning again ED
nice set up man

if im goin to upgrade turbo FPgreen is the way to go
im goin to try to pursuit that next summer to run very low 11s or maybe 10.999 on FPGREEN
thats IF ED its up for the challenge

damn congrats on the power man
and have fun with it

:D It's nice seeing some nice #'s with a TMIC, for some reason I like the look of when you open the hood and see a big TMIC.:D I think I might one day do something along this root. Once money and time premits.Also is it normal to have the torque levals about the whp??? Or is that what you get when you run a good TMIC and an aftermarket turbo?

Thank you ..very much bro it means alot to have that coming from you. I copied you at first but i found out that its your driving thatis making you really fast and i can't copy that..:) . Ed is the man what can i say and i am sure when i get to sea level we should have some fun...And i think ed would be up for that challenge...:)



thanks for the giving respect man. yea theres quite handfull of people goin to the same route as me. but really tho. my driving didnt do nothing. aslong u can run my stock sti into 1/4 very low 13s. you can drive my car into 11s
its ALL ON EDs on this pass. i was jus there to drive it.

im def thinking a new way to up the standards.. im sure ED will be ready to take on any challenge hahaa.

drive here to sacramento
ill help at the track best i can if your having the itch to track it
im also curious how that feels
thats if your willing to let me ride passenger hahahaha

Passenger..i let you drive then damn thing...lol i do want to make it there but i need ed to look at it first before i do any racing just to make sure everything is good and i am not goingto blow it up..nobody wants that :). Also i heard you are a great driver so maybe you can give me some tips on how to use this launch control thing..lol..

thanks for the giving respect man. yea theres quite handfull of people goin to the same route as me. but really tho. my driving didnt do nothing. aslong u can run my stock sti into 1/4 very low 13s. you can drive my car into 11s
its ALL ON EDs on this pass. i was jus there to drive it.

im def thinking a new way to up the standards.. im sure ED will be ready to take on any challenge hahaa.

drive here to sacramento
ill help at the track best i can if your having the itch to track it
im also curious how that feels
thats if your willing to let me ride passenger hahahaha

Passenger..i let you drive then damn thing...lol i do want to make it there but i need ed to look at it first before i do any racing just to make sure everything is good and i am not goingto blow it up..nobody wants that :). Also i heard you are a great driver so maybe you can give me some tips on how to use this launch control thing..lol..

Sean only needs his feet for "launch control" :D

Ed i knew you were going to say that..damn..lol.i forgot to say that you get to make the first pass with it at the track by the way ..then sean :D

Sean only needs his feet for "launch control" :D