In light of the recent "clarification" it would be nice to have known combos that "work" ie no P0420 cel (and no defeat) even combos that don't might be helpful.

I tried moving the O2 sensor behind the 3rd oe cat (this is w/ a catless shorty) in hopes it might quell the P0420- it lasted a couple of days and then it lit up :(

Chris's combo - a Random cat in a shorty downpipe combined w/ a Random mid-pipe cat w/ the O2 sensor downstream of both cats appears that it will work ( I think he had over 2500 miles and several autox runs w/o any light) http://www.xcceleration.com/itemdetails.cfm83.htm

It would be nice to know if any of the catted downpipes on their own would work or even possibly some of the mid pipe catted pieces on their own- that would trim cost and possibly leave a pony or two on the table.

TIA

Mike

Well I'm all for it. I'm moving into STX class for next season with my wagon.

So the 'clarification' (it's not a take-back *wink*) is going to stick? Is there real action in the works or just rumors of action? Any possibility of a re-clarification? I was really hoping there would be an ST* protest-fest at Nationals because now I'm more confused than before the clarification.

(05 STi in STU)

I put on a stromung divorced wastegate downpipe and a mad dad catted midpipe with the o2 bung after the cat about a month ago, and haven't thrown a CEL yet.

It seems to make good power and it is a full 3" combo.

--
Brian

(05 STi in STU)

I put on a stromung divorced wastegate downpipe and a mad dad catted midpipe with the o2 bung after the cat about a month ago, and haven't thrown a CEL yet.

It seems to make good power and it is a full 3" combo.

--
Brian
What ECU management are you using? And just trying to clarify... any CEL code defeats?

Brian- thanks. If one good cat would do the trick, this could make the clarification a little easier on a bunch of us :)

What ECU management are you using? And just trying to clarify... any CEL code defeats?

I have an access port v2, and have been running the stock base map to see if I will throw CELs.

--
Brian

helix catted downpipe on the STI no cels or defeats.

thank you sir :) that's good news indeed

I think one of your big keys for this is going to be the "Are you REALLY sure that you have no defeats in your map?" for everyone who is using any non-stock ECU tuning, with the follow up question of "Have you used\borrowed a Tactrix cable and actually checked?". I know that Greg's car seemed to be a legal setup until we looked into his map and saw that his CELs were disabled even though the tune had been specifically requested to leave them in.

And I'd like to point out that the RX-8 STILL isn't competitive in STU so you should expect further takebacks in the class. :)

good point, might be worth while knowing how long cel free as well


I know Cobb posted up a new STX map w/ no cel defeat, nit sure on a STU map- also there was some debate about the base map having the cel defeat or not- would definitely be worth checking into that

Phil- would delta dash show if there was a cel defeat? What exactly does the Tatrix cable show?

Delta wouldn't show a thing from my understanding. With the Tactrix you can download the BIN file and look at the actual registers in the image to see if they are disabled or not. ECUExplorer\Enginuity let you see if they're set or not. This also lets you look at boost target and WGDC tables to see if your tune is ACTUALLY ST* legal.

Since I'm not an AP user and don't know all the details I may be wrong on this but I've been told that those registers are part of your basemap and not your realtime map. That means that you can no longer even think about having your ST* legal map as your realtime it's got to be your base map (ignoring the argument over whether it was ever legal to use it only as a realtime).

Cobb catted DP. 20,000 miles without throwing a 420 and suddenly it threw one:furious

I drove 3000 miles to Kansas and back, and the CEL came on twice. I figured out that it only came on if I used the cruise control at very low revs. so I stopped doing that and it did not come on again.

Car was in a cat-ready condition for the actual race:D

I have an APS turboback with the gigantic APS cat. I'm in a very similar situation as Max, the car is fine for months then it will randomly throw a P0420, usually cruising on the highway. (I stood over the shoulder of the tuner as he made the base map, so I know all the CELs are enabled)

James' 06 has the new CARB-certified Perrin double-cat downpipe, and the car has not thrown a CEL with it. (he got CELs with the Cobb that he previously had)

And I'd like to point out that the RX-8 STILL isn't competitive in STU so you should expect further takebacks in the class. :)

I still believe the car has some competition potential in STU, I just think we need a sample size greater than one in order to get a better idea whether that's true.

Since I'm not an AP user and don't know all the details I may be wrong on this but I've been told that those registers are part of your basemap and not your realtime map. That means that you can no longer even think about having your ST* legal map as your realtime it's got to be your base map (ignoring the argument over whether it was ever legal to use it only as a realtime).

Yes, it is the basemap that can enable/disable CELs. The basemap must be STU legal, as well as the livemap (if any). In my case I have a STU base map, and a live map which is the same tune. (just as a way to make sure my 'street' live map is gone)

I use the Cobb OEM basemap. I confirmed with Christian at Cobb that this map did contain any CEL defeats. Indeed, it is a mirror of the Subaru OEM map but with some added code that allows to to be flashed from the AP. Obviously, that is true since I threw a CEL!!

I then have a custom tuned realtime STU map, which basically has some more aggressive timing for 94 octane fuel.

Interesting on the Cobb and the APS downpipes- that would be pretty tough luck if it decided to throw it at the wrong time :(

Just looked at the Perrin offering mentioned above- two cats certainly seem the "safer" option, but it sure would be nice to get it done w/ one.

I think one of your big keys for this is going to be the "Are you REALLY sure that you have no defeats in your map?" for everyone who is using any non-stock ECU tuning, with the follow up question of "Have you used\borrowed a Tactrix cable and actually checked?". I know that Greg's car seemed to be a legal setup until we looked into his map and saw that his CELs were disabled even though the tune had been specifically requested to leave them in.

And I'd like to point out that the RX-8 STILL isn't competitive in STU so you should expect further takebacks in the class. :)

Very true, very true. You need to make sure there not checked if it is indeed a custom tune.

After Phil told me, I had them unchecked, logged 500 miles on a Cobb catted with no 420 code. I think a new o2 has more to do with it than anything. I also had a brand new EGT. I was however getting a random lean code, the car has 80,000 miles, finally changed the MAF and seemed to take care of it.

I will be staying in STX next year and because of that I will be looking for a more reliable set up. I'm going to weld a bigger hi-flo into the cobb downpipe also simulating the stock o2 location see if it's any more or less finicky.

The end result is you could put a cat on big enough for a dump truck and if the rear o2 didn't like it's posistion you're screwed.

For the record I was in ready state with no codes for Nats'. Much ado about nothing. I find it interesting that no one's looking for a solution to the egt (not that I have one, a solution that is). Everyone knows it could at any time trip on limit.

Great thread Big Sky. I will keep updating over the winter. Subscribed!

Greg

FWIW, a clever hacker could defeat the CELs in any number of ways, not just the main (and obvious) CEL switch map. At least I imagine all the major tools only support this.

There is no remotely foolproof or even reliable way to check this.

I'm sure the same is true for any number of other cars.

The rule is really unenforceable in my eyes.

I don't think a protest committee would be concerned if your EGT sensor failed during an AutoX. It isn't like an O2 sensor - which is what they are using to determine legality. How do you check for a "ready-state"? I have a cable and a computer, but I only know how to read OBDII codes.

Very true, very true. You need to make sure there not checked if it is indeed a custom tune.

After Phil told me, I had them unchecked, logged 500 miles on a Cobb catted with no 420 code. I think a new o2 has more to do with it than anything. I also had a brand new EGT. I was however getting a random lean code, the car has 80,000 miles, finally changed the MAF and seemed to take care of it.

I will be staying in STX next year and because of that I will be looking for a more reliable set up. I'm going to weld a bigger hi-flo into the cobb downpipe also simulating the stock o2 location see if it's any more or less finicky.

The end result is you could put a cat on big enough for a dump truck and if the rear o2 didn't like it's posistion you're screwed.

For the record I was in ready state with no codes for Nats'. Much ado about nothing. I find it interesting that no one's looking for a solution to the egt (not that I have one, a solution that is). Everyone knows it could at any time trip on limit.

Great thread Big Sky. I will keep updating over the winter. Subscribed!

Greg

I don't think a protest committee would be concerned if your EGT sensor failed during an AutoX. It isn't like an O2 sensor - which is what they are using to determine legality. How do you check for a "ready-state"? I have a cable and a computer, but I only know how to read OBDII codes.

I bought an Auto Tap program (from summit, the $199.00 version), which shows if you are ready/non-ready. One of the few expenses I incurred prior to nationals. Oh besides the transmission.:lol:


You would have to seperate the EGT from emissions monitoring. Which I don't think you can as it is linked to the OBDII. It still plays a part.

They are using the ODBII as legality, by letter at least. That's my interpretation.

my .02

Greg- will be looking forward to hearing how the "experiment" goes :)

which program did you purchase- Auto Tap lists several on their site- will this work w/ any OBDII connector?

Sears carries Actron OBD scanners also ;)

(or at least they used to...)

basically the scanner gives a thumbs up or thumbs down on the "ready state"?

My Actron tells you which OBD system monitors are ready or not ready.

As long as Nationals is on asphalt and not brushed concrete, I wouldn't worry about the Maxdas. Of course, they could issue a clarification that states the front wheels are not allowed to be connected to the engine....

- Jtoby

Update for my car: '04 WRX with Cobb catted downpipe, new Cobb STX basemap that does not disable CEL's and stock O2 sensor downstream from the cat. My car will give a cat inefficiency code if I drive at less than 70 mph on the highway at a constant speed and throttle position. No problems around town or racing. I can avoid ever getting a CEL by driving at at greater than 70mph or by not keeping a constant throttle position/speed when at 50-70mph. To see if I was just preventing the OBDII test from running, I bought a hand-held scanner and found today that all of the car's OBDII tests were in a ready-state. Therefore, I conclude that my emissions system is SCCA legal.

interesting- any idea if you do throw a code how long until you are OBDII "ready"

just thnking about driving a long way to an event and you inadvertently throw the P0640- what it takes to get int the ready state- obviously the cel needs re-set- how long or what kind of driving is needed to get in the ready state?

TIA

Screw this...I'll just run SM.

BTW: Helix or Titek catted DP on 04 WRX...throws P0420 after two short drive cycles.

^ good to know that- thanks

not sure if it is relevant but I had the turbo xs stealthback (catted of course) exaust on my old 03 wrx for 2 years with no cels. No engine management, no defoulers, etc....

How far do you suppose people will go to enforce the ruling on the O2 sensor? We're not allowed to modify the housing in any way. Do you suppose anyone will go far enough to claim that it has to be in the stock housing? That would pretty much make it mandatory that we all keep the stock 3rd cat pipe.

How far do you suppose people will go to enforce the ruling on the O2 sensor? We're not allowed to modify the housing in any way. Do you suppose anyone will go far enough to claim that it has to be in the stock housing? That would pretty much make it mandatory that we all keep the stock 3rd cat pipe.
I seriously doubt we'd be required to run the stock 3rd cat piping. Why? That would be a true takeback. The rules in that apply in this case:


13.10 ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN
E. Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the
header/manifold or catalytic converter, if so equipped, may be
substituted provided the system meets the requirements of 3.5.
Stainless steel heat exchangers are permitted only if the physical
dimensions and configuration remain unchanged.
Modifications of any type, including additions to or removal of,
the catalytic converters, thermal reactors, or any other pollution
control devices in the exhaust system are not allowed and the
system must be operable. Replacement catalytic converters must
be OE if the vehicle has not exceeded the five-year/50,000 mile
warranty period as mandated by the EPA. Converters must be of
the same type and size and used in the same location as the
original equipment converter(s). This does not allow for a high
performance unit. If the vehicle has exceeded the five-year/
50,000 mile warranty period, replacement catalytic converters
must be OE-type as per Section 13.
Exhaust hangers which are bolted or welded on the car are considered
part of the body and may not be changed or removed.

14.10 ENGINE
D. Exhaust manifolds and headers may be replaced with alternate
units which are emissions-legal. Relocation of the oxygen sensor
on the header is permitted. Alternate oxygen sensors, including
heated types, are permitted. This allowance does not permit
relocation of the catalytic converter (see 13.10.E). Exhaust heat
shields may be modified the minimum amount necessary to ac
commodate allowed alternate exhaust components.

14.12 STX
6. High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach
within six inches of the original unit. Multiple catalytic converters
may be replaced by a single unit. The inlet of the single replacement
converter may be located no further downstream than 6"
along the piping flow path from the original exit of the final OE
converter.

How far do you suppose people will go to enforce the ruling on the O2 sensor? We're not allowed to modify the housing in any way. Do you suppose anyone will go far enough to claim that it has to be in the stock housing? That would pretty much make it mandatory that we all keep the stock 3rd cat pipe.

It's a valid question, thus far the answer seems to be that if you "relocate" it via a antifouler to "fool" the ecu, then that is not allowed. Simply moving up or downstream seems to be OK. This entire "calrification" seems to have the complete opposite effect of clarifying anything :)

^^ looks like the turboxs stealthback downpipe would be workable- good to know thanks

Since I'm not an AP user and don't know all the details I may be wrong on this but I've been told that those registers are part of your basemap and not your realtime map. That means that you can no longer even think about having your ST* legal map as your realtime it's got to be your base map (ignoring the argument over whether it was ever legal to use it only as a realtime).


Good point. I would say that a large percentage of the access port base maps out there are NOT ST legal. When I had my car retuned following the clarification, Jorge made two custom basemaps for me, both STX legal (One for 93 octane the other for 100 octane). The basemaps had the CEL defeats removed.

Commentary:
Until recently all of the accessport off the shelf base maps (which is what most tuners use as a starting point for "protuning") had some of the CEL's defeated. Protuning usually consists of writing a realtime map to tweak some of the parameters of the tune, but many of the basemap parameters can't be adjusted in the realtime map.

I believe that COBB may be producing a basemap with all the CEL's enabled now (anyone confirm this?). If that is true and they didn't do anything else to affect boost then that would be a better alternative; allowing people to get protuned and have multiple realtime maps while still remaining legal. So people don't have to reflash their basemaps before and after each event when they run 100 octane fuel.

As we get into the cold season it may be increasingly difficult to keep the P0420's at bay. Fliz mentioned this in one of his previous posts, so keep in mind the ambient temperature and your cat's temperature before you do any steady state cruising. I don't believe that some of the CEL's would be occurring if it were the middle of summer. The cat's are just less efficient at colder temps...

So I recently swapped in a full APS turboback with their high-flow cat. I need to get back to the local shop and have my engine map modified to enable CEL's to see if this will work. I'll give everyone an update when I figure it out.

James' 06 has the new CARB-certified Perrin double-cat downpipe, and the car has not thrown a CEL with it.
Got a link? I don't see this on Perrin's website.

it's two seperate pieces it looks like (both catted)

the rear (Perrin) piece looks like the O2 sensor is BEFORE the cat, like oe- I would think it would be better to have the O2 sensor after the 2nd cat (not including the uppipe in my numbering :)) if your goal is to defeat the cel ????????

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/products/303/201_large.jpg

Got a link? I don't see this on Perrin's website.

Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/products/list?category=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James

Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/products/list?category=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James
Cool, thanks. I think this is the cheapest 2-cat solution so far so I am definitely interested :)

john

In the above example, if one were to move the rear O2 sensor behind the second cat, how would you do it? I don't think the wire is long enough.

In the above example, if one were to move the rear O2 sensor behind the second cat, how would you do it? I don't think the wire is long enough.

Buy stainless bung from jegs or something, drill hole where needed, weld it in, and plug the old opening.

The wires may be long enough to get to the engine side of the flange, you can get some slack if you take it off the trans clip.

If not, extend the o2 wires.

Seb, send some of that sunshine over here!

I think it would reach without extending the wires. Our PDE puts the sensor pretty far downstream and it reaches without an issue with some slack leftover.

Buy stainless bung from jegs or something, drill hole where needed, weld it in, and plug the old opening.

The wires may be long enough to get to the engine side of the flange, you can get some slack if you take it off the trans clip.

If not, extend the o2 wires.

Seb, send some of that sunshine over here!

You make it sound so simple! I suck at electricity and am scared to tear in to my brand new rear O2 sensor wiring. I'm in good with my local exhaust shop, so moving the bung is no probelmo.

Is the trans clip before or after the little harness thingy?

What's up Greg? It's not sunny here, but still pretty nice.

It's been a while since I pulled the rear O2 out but from memory: The rear O2 sensor has a clip that holds it in a loop to the transmission cross-member between the sensor and it's plug. Pull the clip and you've got all the slack the loop had in it which -should- be enough to move the sensor as far back as the flange if you wanted to I think.

I don't think Toledo is much nicer than here and it's currently 22 degrees here. There are a very few times when I think moving south makes sense and days when I get in the truck at the train station after work and it says it's 28 and it is raining are one of them.

It's been a while since I pulled the rear O2 out but from memory: The rear O2 sensor has a clip that holds it in a loop to the transmission cross-member between the sensor and it's plug. Pull the clip and you've got all the slack the loop had in it which -should- be enough to move the sensor as far back as the flange if you wanted to I think.

This is correct.

You can also clip a few of the zip ties further up from where the plug is (on the part that goes up to the main wiring harness) and get some more slack for the whole rear O2 sensor. This is in the TurboXS exhaust install instructions and works well. The TurboXS exhaust has the O2 sensor much futher back than OEM and there was plenty of slack for it to go in.

Now that I have my APS exhaust there is too much slack. :)

^ your experience w/ the APS unit and cels? Funky earlier in the thread said he would occasional get a cel crusing on the highway (often months in between)

^ your experience w/ the APS unit and cels? Funky earlier in the thread said he would occasional get a cel crusing on the highway (often months in between)

I currently am running it with a mechanical CEL fix. No CEL of course.

I carried that CEL fix over from my catless TurboXS setup and it was golden. I did remove it for a while and ran without it for most of the spring/summer. At first it was great, didn't have a single CEL but then I started to get a CEL off and on, usually when I was doing 80 crusing on the highway.

However my car burns oil like whoa (pretty sure it's the turbo which is about to be replaced) so I'm pretty sure the CEL is due to my cat being shot from being coated with hot oil over and over for such a long time. So don't take anything I say as gospel at all.

I'm hoping to get this all resolved and a new cat in there soon and then I can report back on how it works w/o the mechanical CEL fix.

^ where exactly is the APS cat located (and where is the bung for the O2 sensor)?

thanks

^ where exactly is the APS cat located (and where is the bung for the O2 sensor)?

thanks

http://solberg.umd.edu/STi/aps/IMG_2805-800.JPG

The cat is just about where the 1st cat is in the stock exhaust. It's just after the cast iron part of the downpipe or "turbo outlet" as APS call it.

The O2 sensor bung is just after the cat. (it's actually much closer to the turbo then in the stock downpipe.)

As you can see in the photo this is when I had the mechanical CEL fix installed. This is just after I had installed the exhaust last year.

Another pic of just the cat: http://solberg.umd.edu/STi/aps/IMG_2807-800.JPG

ahhh- thanks

you'd think w/ the cat that far upstream (ala oe) it should be pretty effective in regards to "cleaning"- interesting they move the O2 sensor forward :)

^ thinking about this a bit- is having the 02 sensor that close to the cat the "best" place to be- obviously the oe bung is further down stream

any chance that moving it further downstream (closer to the oe location) might help w/ the occasional cel the APS setup sees? or would that make it more likely to go off?

I've run a Helix catted downpipe for three years and never had a CEL. On both an 04 STI and an 07 STI - same downpipe.

^ looks like it might have been discontinued- no longer on Helix's site either :(

Maddad's dual cat setup with the o2 bung after the cats should get the job done.

http://www.daddysscp.com/dcart4/product.php?productid=149&cat=10&page=1
http://www.daddysscp.com/dcart4/product_image.php?imageid=191

I recently emailed Buschur about my catted turboback exhaust. I have only run in local events so far, and I have the technically illegal cobb accessport setup with a stage 2 basemap with CEL defeat, and the STU 100 octane map as a realtime.

I asked Buschur if they had any CEL complaints from customers running the catted turboback without any CEL defeats. They claimed they had never received a CEL-related complaint for that exhaust. The Buschur downpipe has the cat up near the turbo, and the O2 bung in the back at more or less the stock location.

I could theoretically switch the accessport to run the 100 octane STU map without CEL defeat as the basemap, and run the stage 2 91 octane map as a realtime for the street. I can then load the STU map as a realtime at events and be 100% legal, as well as test for emissions CELs while driving on the street. I will need to call Cobb to see if there will be any unintended consequences, though.

I recently emailed Buschur about my catted turboback exhaust. I have only run in local events so far, and I have the technically illegal cobb accessport setup with a stage 2 basemap with CEL defeat, and the STU 100 octane map as a realtime.

I asked Buschur if they had any CEL complaints from customers running the catted turboback without any CEL defeats. They claimed they had never received a CEL-related complaint for that exhaust. The Buschur downpipe has the cat up near the turbo, and the O2 bung in the back at more or less the stock location.

I could theoretically switch the accessport to run the 100 octane STU map without CEL defeat as the basemap, and run the stage 2 91 octane map as a realtime for the street. I can then load the STU map as a realtime at events and be 100% legal, as well as test for emissions CELs while driving on the street. I will need to call Cobb to see if there will be any unintended consequences, though.

When AP's first came out, I had one. I asked about that very same thing (running a 'lower' stage base and a 'higher' stage realtime). They said "don't do that". I can't recall whatever the specific reason was, but that was directly from Cobb... I posted on their forum and got an answer from one of their folks. The gist was: the basemap needs to be >= whatever realtime maps you want to run.

If something has changed since, what was it... 2004?, then who knows.. just repeating what I was told.

So, yeah, definitely call Cobb first, then report back here for everyone else's benefit :) I don't run an AP now (or any EM)... stock as a rock, mostly b/c I'm both too lazy to mod the car anymore, and don't wish to muck with all the hassle and whining in ST (and I don't even go to Nats). Considering that John Hale kicks everyone's asses in all of TX in a virtually bone-stock car (in STU), I got no reason to think I need EM yet! Not sure exactly what that says about us or him!,... :alien: :lol:

Here you go!

http://www.perrinperformance.com/products/list?category=6&model=2

I have both the front and rear peices. The rear cat is downstream of the O2 so I don't think it's necesary. Jeff (Perrin) was pretty confident that the first cat will be enough to keep the ecu happy. I will likely remove the second one this winter. It must have something to do with the cat being closer to the turbo and therfore getting more heat.

James


If your factory catalysts are tired, broken or missing PERRIN™ now offers a replacement catalytic converter that is approved for all states that do not require CARB approval.


I've never claimed to be terribly smart :alien: , but someone clarify what I'm reading in that quote... "approved for all states that DO NOT require CARB approval".

It sounds like it's saying it's not CARB approved to me, only '49-state'... but again, maybe I'm just reading it wrong? Wasn't the recent re-re-clarifica-rule-changX0Rz invoking the CARB bits as well?, or am I just mis-remembering something?


cliffs: I thought any replacement setups had to be CARB approved.

AFAIK, the rule-ification is "can't throw a CEL, can't do anything that hides a CEL"

I don't think it's linked to CARB and it's definitely not linked to actual federal law since you are not allowed to remove a functioning catalytic converter without explicit permission, ever.

john

AFAIK, the rule-ification is "can't throw a CEL, can't do anything that hides a CEL"

I don't think it's linked to CARB and it's definitely not linked to actual federal law since you are not allowed to remove a functioning catalytic converter without explicit permission, ever.

john

So, was the bit about the cat having to have 'the stamp' only w/respect to STS?

I swear I read something like that, just can't remember exactly... that whole argument on sccaforums is retarded-long and such.. it sent me scurrying for beer and pretzels a few times.. which lead directly to unconsciousness :lol:

the STS change was more stringent- "oe" replacement cat IIRC

When AP's first came out, I had one. I asked about that very same thing (running a 'lower' stage base and a 'higher' stage realtime). They said "don't do that". I can't recall whatever the specific reason was, but that was directly from Cobb... I posted on their forum and got an answer from one of their folks. The gist was: the basemap needs to be >= whatever realtime maps you want to run.

If something has changed since, what was it... 2004?, then who knows.. just repeating what I was told.

So, yeah, definitely call Cobb first, then report back here for everyone else's benefit :) I don't run an AP now (or any EM)... stock as a rock, mostly b/c I'm both too lazy to mod the car anymore, and don't wish to muck with all the hassle and whining in ST (and I don't even go to Nats). Considering that John Hale kicks everyone's asses in all of TX in a virtually bone-stock car (in STU), I got no reason to think I need EM yet! Not sure exactly what that says about us or him!,... :alien: :lol:

I just talked with Cobb about this. They said it would not be a problem to run the STU map as a basemap and the stage 2 as the realtime, keeping in mind that losing battery power would revert you to the STU map, which could be bad. They did suggest driving the car conservatively with the stage 2 as realtime.

With this information, I would probably reflash like this a couple of weeks before any national level event, so the car gets driven long enough to report emissions ready. Also, it would be a way to test out a TBE to see if it throws any CELs. You could do that by uninstalling the accessport as well, but you'd have to drive the car conservatively with that setup too.

I just drive with the "Stock" map as base, and flash on the STU map as realtime.

I just talked with Cobb about this. They said it would not be a problem to run the STU map as a basemap and the stage 2 as the realtime,
They did suggest driving the car conservatively with the stage 2 as realtime.
:confused:

It's not a problem, but you have to drive conservatively when you have the Stage 2 map on there? That sounds like a problem to me.

I've been scouring some older threads in the engine section and folks are talking about passing emissions testing w/ one cat and a cel delete (ecu)- if the ecu deletes the cel (or fools it w/ a signal?) does this show up as not "emissions ready"? You would think that part of the testing (come from a non-testing state) in addition to any sniffing would be is the car "emissions ready"

My question boils down to- does a ecu "fix" show up as non OBDII compliant- has anyone checked this? Not looking away around the disabling of the cel, just curious if it can even be detected.

:confused:

It's not a problem, but you have to drive conservatively when you have the Stage 2 map on there? That sounds like a problem to me.

I didn't expect anything else, other than that CYA response. I seriously doubt they would ever say doing something like this is 100% guaranteed OK.

I would like to see what the maps actually have in them. My feeling is that the basemap features of the STU map will be identical to the stage 2 map. All the real tuning is in the realtime part of the maps anyway. This is what always bugged me about the decision that it's not legal to run stage 2 basemap with STU realtime (excepting the CEL defeat of course). All the boost tables are in the realtime part of the map. Running stage 2 base plus STU realtime retains stock boost settings. Somehow, it was decided this was not good enough.

I'm going to ask my local shop if they can open the maps with the protuner software and compare them. I want to see what differences there actually are between stage 2 and STU for the basemap specific values. If the basemap specific values match, than it will not matter what order the maps are run. If they are different, I can at least tell what is changed.

You can use the stock map as a basemap, but you would be missing out on some tuning done to closed loop tables that are included when running the 100 octane as a basemap. I don't know how significant these changes are. Cobb implies in the release notes that there is a big difference, but I don't understand the details.

^^ looks like the turboxs stealthback downpipe would be workable- good to know thanks
FWIW - when I had my catted stealthback on with a Prodrive muffler and the stock uppipe/header back in 03, I was getting P0420's under similar conditions as others (extended cruising at fixed speeds/throttle).

One of the options I'm thinking about for next year is to get TXS to fabricate something either with the cat in a different location closer to the turbo or two cats (since TXS is local and can do these sorts of things). The Buschur is another one I'm looking at coz it's so light. It's just scary to think of spending $900+ on something that might end up not being legal :(

john

^ I hear ya! I just bought a used Prodrive catted downpipe and catless center piece. I talked to a couple of guys who have run this combo sans any cel fix and (knock on wood) they haven't gotten any. If I were to throw one- I'll go to plan B and pick up a catted center pipe (O2 sensor rearward of the cat)

FIt's just scary to think of spending $900+ on something that might end up not being legal :(

john

That's the rub. You really can't guarantee ANY exhaust, other than stock, will be legal. I bought my Buschur just before all this hullabaloo started, so I'm stuck with it now. Even if I ran mine with no CEL defeats, and had no problems, that doesn't mean it will do the same for others with different model year STis or WRXs.

IMO, since the rules are "competitor enforced" the whole clarification just doesn't make any sense. Seriously... if everyone is finding it to be a complete PITA - then why should we care? People in my region don't really care about super minor technicalities, and we just run our cars in the spirit of the class. For instance, my friend drives a Saturn with upgraded disc brakes in the rear... which is technically not STS legal. But, the discs were available on a later model year. So.... it really is legal, in the spirit of the rules.

IMO this whole OBDII clarification is so bogus. All it is doing is making people ditch their old setups and redo something for lots of $$$. In the end, either setup is probably netting the same horsepower in the end... there is such a small difference that I really don't think it makes any difference. Even at a national level.

I'm just running what I have for next season. It has a cat, and I checked with the people running STX next season with me and they don't care. I also am completely untuned so I am sure I am making way less power than anyone else's setup that has some form of tuning. I'm not planning on running nationals any time soon, but I would be very sad if someone put in a complaint about me, because I know there is truly no unfair advantage I have, as my car isn't even maxed out.

If we all think this is bogus then we should just go with the "old" rules and continue on like before. I personally don't have the money or time to redo my entire exhaust just to meet some silly rule that really doen't change anything about the car's capabilities.

If we all think this is bogus then we should just go with the "old" rules and continue on like before. I personally don't have the money or time to redo my entire exhaust just to meet some silly rule that really doen't change anything about the car's capabilities.

define 'we'.

It only takes one person to set the pile of perched rocks tumbling.


I'm speaking on a national level, mind you. I don't think anyone should care about the impact upon local events.

define 'we'.

It only takes one person to set the pile of perched rocks tumbling.


I'm speaking on a national level, mind you. I don't think anyone should care about the impact upon local events.


I guess "we" the people who are frustrated having to re-do their entire setup based on the clarification. I don't see how anyone here on the boards can possibly be overjoyed to scrap their entire setup and redo it... if so I can't imagine why. It seems like the clarification doesn't really help anyone get any sort of advantage.

^ believe me the clarification was not brought up by anyone driving a Subaru :)

but obviously it's the Subaru's (and a few others) that it impacts most, I think it was an attempt to level a playing field that probably wasn't that unlevel to begin w/, either way it appears we are stuck w/ the "clarification" :(

:confused:

It's not a problem, but you have to drive conservatively when you have the Stage 2 map on there? That sounds like a problem to me.

+agreed

I didn't expect anything else, other than that CYA response. I seriously doubt they would ever say doing something like this is 100% guaranteed OK.

...

You can use the stock map as a basemap, but you would be missing out on some tuning done to closed loop tables that are included when running the 100 octane as a basemap. I don't know how significant these changes are. Cobb implies in the release notes that there is a big difference, but I don't understand the details.


When running a stock base back in '04 on my WRX, my car would ping running that stage-2 realtime map. The realtime maps do not (or, back then at least, could-not) modify the OL/CL crossover point, it's duration, or whatever else needs to be done with it ( don't ask me the technical details, I don't know ).
Actually, I recall a post by Trey stating something to the effect of: "if I fixed the stock basemap to handle OL/CL better, it would no longer be a 'stock' basemap". :alien:

If the STU basemap fixes the OL/CL stuff, then that may indeed be an 'approved' setup. I did not know that about the STU map.

All I'm saying is, my car pinged an uncomfortable amount doing the stock-base w/staged realtime. I just wouldn't suggest doing it.


So! I suppose the modified 'advice' I would dispense should be: "make sure whatever basemap you run contains the fix for OL/CL lean-out issues". :)

I still wonder about their whole statement to the effect of "take it easy" though, hmmm.

agreed- w/ any 04+ WRX (might not apply to the STi's??) you definitely want the OL/CL taken care of for day to day driving

I recently emailed Buschur about my catted turboback exhaust. I have only run in local events so far, and I have the technically illegal cobb accessport setup with a stage 2 basemap with CEL defeat, and the STU 100 octane map as a realtime.

I asked Buschur if they had any CEL complaints from customers running the catted turboback without any CEL defeats. They claimed they had never received a CEL-related complaint for that exhaust. The Buschur downpipe has the cat up near the turbo, and the O2 bung in the back at more or less the stock location.
FWIW: Buschur is having a sale:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1411416

10% off all Subaru parts and free shipping on orders over $800 so this would be $810 shipped with the cat and the quiet muffler.

john

The Buschur DP looks a lot like the same layout as the Helix catted pipe that I'm using, which does throw codes for me. Is there some other big distinguishing factor?

Damn. Yeah going back and reading the thread for whatever reason the Helix appears to be fine on the STi, but not on the WRX. The code you're getting is the P0420 right? I guess I am too trusting of their claim that they've never gotten a CEL with it.

john

Probably would better to get the info firsthand from someone that ran the Buschur setup- he might not have any complaints, but many folks know how to "fix" the cel so it's possible folks are getting them.

It is possible Bushchur is using a different (more efficient) cat than the Helix ?????

Just so y'all know, I get 0420's on an '04 STi with a Helix catted DP.

Or, at least I did before I put an Invidia DP on and put BSP on the doors...

Truth be told, the only exhaust on ANY OBDII car that is known to be legal is the stock one. (and even then, don't spin/stall your car during the event)

Stock exhaust and stock ecu(no flash) for me. I don't think being down on hp will be why I won't win.

Wow... 4 pages and no answers, this has the potential to be a costly decision/set of decisions.

Can anyone comment on this guy:
http://www.daddysscp.com/dcart4/product.php?productid=122&cat=6&page=1

Thanks,
Chip

interesting- the divorce comes in behind the cat- also looks like a fake cat at the rear

Wow... 4 pages and no answers, this has the potential to be a costly decision/set of decisions.

Can anyone comment on this guy:
http://www.daddysscp.com/dcart4/product.php?productid=122&cat=6&page=1

Thanks,
Chip
It appears to be "it depends"

The WRX's that are expecting an uppipe cat appear to be more sensitive than the STi's. That design is similar to the Helix (one cat really close to the turbo) which has worked for some and not for others.

john

Sorry if this is a long-answered question, but what are we supposed to be doing with the uppipe sensor to be compliant there?

ButtDyno, to answer your last question, yes, the Helix was giving me the P0420 code. Usually pretty quickly after a reset.

I think the egt probe just needs to needs to be hooked up and run cel free- I just gutted my stocker (the STi one I'm currently has no provision for the egt)- wasn't the most fun two hours I've ever spent :)

I found a thread where several folks have run gutted uppipes and never removed the probe- years later they are still cel free.

I've got an 05 STi (difficult to have guessed that). I'm running the Cobb DP. Now the rules say this:
All emissions monitoring
system hardware and software must be operationally functional as
originally intended by the manufacturer. Tampering with emissions
system software and/or hardware to create or cloak non-compliance is
not permitted. Some examples of emissions system tampering are O2
foolers, disabling or deactivating Check Engine Light (CEL) code indication,
backdating ECU internals from OBD2 to OBD1, etc.
So, I measured my stock DP, and the distance from the O2 sensor bung to the far wall of the exhaust pipe is about 3 1/2". On the Cobb DP, this distance is only 3 1/4". So if I install a spark plug anti-foul (mechanical cel fix), and that pulls the O2 sensor a further 1/4" out of the flow stream, am I not operating the "emissions monitoring system hardware as originally intended by the manufacturer"?

And then my further question is, what is the difference between a mechanical cel fix and a custom DP with a long O2 sensor bung that is welded on it? Why would one be legal and the other not. Doesn't make sense to me, but I'm only a simple monkey.

I put this question forward to Doug on the scca forums, and he responded favorably.
http://www.sccabb.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5670&PN=1

After a long day I did some exploring online and found this:

http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1022_1035_1069&products_id=70&osCsid=29956e5ea7e4e07246f8581488ba5e8f

http://solberg.umd.edu/~kts/j-o2.jpg

Basically a J-shaped O2 sensor bung you can weld into your exhaust. Since it's welded on and becomes part of the exhaust would this possibly be legal?

Or from what I think I read in the link that 05STiDan posted would it be legal to buy a normal O2 sensor bung and weld it in my current exhaust (APS) at the same spot where the O2 bung would be if I had the stock exhaust? (The APS exhaust moves the cat to just after the turbo and the O2 bung is just after that cat, probably about a foot closer to the turbo then where the stock exhaust puts it.)

good question, it's kind of a shame that they made things so complicated that's it's difficult to determine what's "legal" and what's not :(

Yea it is annoying how vague this "clarification" is. :(

I guess we won't really know until there is a protest. Ugh.

It may or may not be considered a mechanical defeat of the emissions system. We'd need a protest to clarify it's legality.

I'd say run it, but have printed documentation in your car justifying it's legality with references to the solo rules. Analogies don't help a case. Documented facts do.

I have an APS turboback with the gigantic APS cat. I'm in a very similar situation as Max, the car is fine for months then it will randomly throw a P0420, usually cruising on the highway. (I stood over the shoulder of the tuner as he made the base map, so I know all the CELs are enabled)

James' 06 has the new CARB-certified Perrin double-cat downpipe, and the car has not thrown a CEL with it. (he got CELs with the Cobb that he previously had)

Same for me, I am running the APS 3" turbo back with the big cat. Once in a while I will throw a 420 and it always happens on long trips on the highway. So I will go months with no cels and then after a few hours (well more than a few hours, more like 6-8 straight) of highway cruising driving, pop, on it goes.

-Paul

That welded on J is essentially exactly the same way that the PDE downpipe is and was specifically used as an example of what was "never legal and crazy to think it ever was" in the original thread before the clarifichange.

how about his question- the egt probe has been deemed necessary emissions equipment/sensor (correct?) is there anything preventing it from being relocated?

here's why the ?- the Prodrive downpipe has a bung for the egt probe (evidently a UK emissions concern) like so

http://www.toddbeckerphoto.com/prodrive/content/bin/images/large/_MG_1813.jpg

Well here's my report - SUCCESS!

vibrant header/uppipe
EGT stock location
prodrive downpipe with hi-flow
catless mid pipe

1100 miles/20 runs - No CEL

^ good to hear as I have a Prodrive catted downpipe too :) Prodrive mid pipe?

^ good to hear as I have a Prodrive catted downpipe too :) Prodrive mid pipe?

yessir.

Well, the car threw a pending P0420 (code is stored, but no CEL, as the fault had not occured frequently enough). Then the car deleted the pending code on it's own. I though I was good to go. Not.

Tonight, while cruising at about 3k in 4th gear for a while, it threw a P0420 and turned on the CEL. This is after 1500 miles of driving.

So, it's hit or miss with one cat. What a ****ty rule.

damn- not what I was hoping to hear :(

it's really looking like sustained "cruising" is what triggers the cel more than anything- of course if your car is untrailered like most- that's generally how we get to the events :(

But, I crusied at 3200 in 5th from Knoxville to Valdosta, GA - which is 6.5 hours each way. I just don't get it.

I don't really care to run another cat in the midpipe, as I don't think there will be much power loss, really, but I just don't have the cash for it right now. An extra $300 is enough to keep me from being able to attend one of my scheduled "big" events this year.

Too many variables is the problem. The temperature, the humidty, altitude, brand of gas, quality of gas, and dozens of other variables can all be the trigger.

TurboXS called yesterday to say that my two-cat downpipe was done... so I should have some "data" on that (meaningless though it may be) soon.

Did they make it using their huge 4" downpipe?

I think, and I can't remember why, that it's based off a 3" downpipe. I'll take pics when I pick it up.

Picked up my exhaust from TurboXS on Friday.

http://tinyurl.com/2l8bwd

It weighs about 8-8.5 pounds according to my super accurate bathroom scale measurements. It has two metal cats, and they are actually stamped:

http://tinyurl.com/39yylk

According to Andy Hollis's STS/2 "legal" cat thread:
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/274202.aspx

It looks like they are Magnaflow cats (because of the CE). I didn't actually tell TurboXS that I needed EPA legal cats, just that I was trying not to throw a CEL, but it's a nice bonus that they are stamped (in case I move to CA or something, I guess!). Now, I don't know if it's certified for my vehicle type and all that junk, because reading that thread on SCCAForums makes my head hurt (again). I figured that the rules were at least somewhat intuitive for STS/2 but I am struggling to see the "easy" way to figure out if my cat is certified for my car.

Fortunately I am not in STS/2 so I don't care.

Anyhoo, once I get this installed and my car running again I will flash back to the stock basemap and DD the car again for a little while (65 miles a day most days) so that I can see if I am slightly less federally illegal than I was before.

One nice thing is that it doesn't require me to change the whole damn turboback, since my catback pieces will just mate up to the end of the TurboXS race pipe (not pictured). The bummer, however, is needing to get the car re-tuned - I don't think I want to blindly throw it on there with my existing ProTune and see what happens :)

edit: OK, looks like it's legal? Magnaflow 59959 information:
http://www.performance-curve.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1212
Coverage EPA / Federal OBDII

* Function - 3 Way
* Engine Limit - 5.2L / 322 CID
* Test Weight - 4500 lbs.
I know I'm fine on engine limit and test weight, but function? eh?

According to ls1tech (http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491141) the Magnaflow 59959 was tested to flow 570 CFM. According to Chris's thread (http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/261774.aspx) last year, the Randomtech ones flow 613. Not bad considering the xcceleration turboback costs about a bajillion dollars. Actually, the xceleration site says that the 3" cats only flow 502 cfm? (http://www.xcceleration.com/itemdetails.cfm83.htm) I dunno.

The bung is, IIRC, right at the beginning of the race pipe:
http://www.turboxs.com/uploaded_images/251.jpg

I'm hoping for the best. Will post details as they are available :)

john

John- nice :) I was thinking jdm length downpipe w/ two cats- didn't even know they could get two in a "normal" length dp- very interesting!

Mike

Another 300 miles and I'm back to 0 codes, all monitors ready, No CEL.

AutoX rules are awesome!

which reader do you have? it show "ready" status etc?

I have a delta dash (which shows cels and the like), but it doesn't show the OBDII compliance stuff

also did you test to see how long it takes to go from cel to ready status- I'm guessing simply re-setting the ECU does not equate to "ready"?

thanks

I have an Actron pocket scan - it was only $49 on ebay. It will show the ready status of each individual monitor, peding codes, etc.

From what I've been able to tell, it doesn't take me long to go to ready status, but I haven't done a "scientific" investigation. I cleared the cel one evening and checked it the next day after driving 40 miles to work round trip, which is mostly interstate, but some back roads. It was ready.

If I clear the cel with the scanner, it put 3 of my monitors into "not-ready" mode.

I am going to try to get the car to throw the light by cruising in 4th gear again. Cruising in 5th doesn't do it.

i'll have to pick up one of those scanners- thanks for the tip on it

interesting-almost all of my "cruising" is in 5th (Interstate) but occasionally on some of the lesser highways/biways it is 4th

Just got my exhaust all put together; gutted UP, Stromung shorty DP, Mad Dad 3" HF cat w/O2 sensor post cat and 3" mid pipe. Still gotta get my front suspension back together before I can find anything out, maybe by this weekend.

Well, cruised around in 4th at 3k as much as I could yesterday - no CEL.

So frustrating.

hmmmm- I guess that's good- kind of :)

would you mind posting the model # of your scanner- turns out there are a bunch of them (actron)

tia

Looks like it is the CP9125

It took 20,000 miles for mine to come on - keep trying:D

My CEL has only come on once since removing all CEL defeats in early February. It happened on a long stretch of open road where I was cruising in 4th gear at 47-48 MPH for a few miles, then slowed to 43 MPH for a slower speed limit. The CEL came on shortly after reaching the slower speed.

I have a Cobb stainless steel uppipe, a ceramic-coated Stromung divorced wastegate downpipe, and a Stromung 3rd cat pipe.

Picked up my exhaust from TurboXS on Friday.

man, that looks awesome!!!

I can't wait for the results!

if you don't mind me asking... what did that cost???

I'm using the Random tech/xcelleration set-up now.. with Zero problems. ~10K miles.. no Po420 codes..

I check for codes often usign both my Tatrix cable, and my V1 AP..

Well, about 80 miles put on around town now and 1 event. At about 60 miles my OBD I/M test on the Actron scanner showed every monitor ready EXCEPT the O2 sensor, even catalyst came up as ready, and at this point, at almost 90 miles, the O2 sensor is still coming up "not ready".

Checking the OBD I/M system after every drive is really beginning to become a bummer, from what I can tell so far, anyone that shows up at Nationals with a WRX that has less than 90 miles on the trip meter is, potentially, easy protest bait.

:(

that's not good news- all the WRX guys yawning in the morning from driving around at night to get the sensors "ready" :(

I finally had the ECU reflashed and CEL's turned back on. I'm up around 300 miles on the APS turboback w/ single cat. No lights yet.

I have something to run by you scrutineers:

At the beginning of the thread my intention was to weld a second cat (magna flow universal) into my Cobb DP. Well I'm lazy and the end result is there are some packaging considerations that limit the ability to actually do this. And you still wouldn't know if it was benificial.

1. There's only around 7.75 " of flat between the first 2 bends in the DP. The cat has an overall length of 9"
2. Even though I could cut the cat down, as there is ~ 3" of useless extention on it, I fear my A/C condensate hose would become a firey mess due to O.D.

Prior to Nationals last year I welded in an additional o2 bung ~ 4" behind the one supplied on the Cobb DP. My thinking at the time was, I needed to replace the one I had been using with the resistor with a new one and I'd try to get it further back so it was not so directly in the exhaust stream.

So here's my revalation:
I have 2 o2 bungs in my DP
I have a new o2 without a resistor
I have an old o2 with a resistor

I run both sensors. Resistor when not at an event. Non-resistor when in competition.

I could even install a switch to toggle between them. Simply ready state at all times, I'd bet. Is there a rule as to how many o2's you can have?


So here's the questions:
Shady?
Suspect?
Protest Bait?
Legal?
Illegal?
Laughable?
Genius?
Super Genius?


Believe me I've been in the box and out of the box with this clarification. So i'm not posting this to be a jerk.

If there is interest, I have a source for a short body 100 cell cat that can be welded in anywhere there there is an ~5.25" section available, even on a curve.
Lightest wt. and best flowing cat out there, would also make a good aux cat.

The race cats were on the top finishing STX/U cars at the recent SCCA Tour and ProSolo cars. Of course it was on the winning Super Challenge car also - horn toot! :banana:

Let me know as I'm making an order soon.

Rick

Randomtech? What CFM?

So here's my revalation:
I have 2 o2 bungs in my DP
I have a new o2 without a resistor
I have an old o2 with a resistor

I run both sensors. Resistor when not at an event. Non-resistor when in competition.

I could even install a switch to toggle between them. Simply ready state at all times, I'd bet. Is there a rule as to how many o2's you can have?


So here's the questions:
Shady?
Suspect?
Protest Bait?
Legal?
Illegal?
Laughable?
Genius?
Super Genius?


Hmm, somewhere between genius and super genius? Actually, no, I'd like to make a write in vote for Evil Genius.

OTOH, the thing I'd be concerned with is the IIDSYCYC idea behind the solo rules. There's nothing in there that says YOU CAN add a second O2 sensor and a switch, so there may be some ground to stand on there if someone really wants to protest you. IMO the safe way would be to run a single O2 sensor and switch it out at events. If I remember correctly, this is what Chris was doing, or at least was planning on doing with his EGT last year.

The race cats were on the top finishing STX/U cars at the recent SCCA Tour and ProSolo cars.


Hold on there... they weren't on my STX car. :p


-Greg

Randomtech? What CFM?

Same core manufactuer as RT but in a different SS housing, also the only 100 cell available that I know of. CFM is tough to compare as there are different testing methods. This cat will out flow any of the other cats mentioned in this thread. MF's is a 300 cell and Helix uses a 200 cell/inch.

Send me your email and I'll send you a dimensioned CAD drawing you can post. I don't think my post count is high enough to do it yet.

Rick

Hold on there... they weren't on my STX car. :p


-Greg

Well one of the Blue cars has one, and it was on the car right behind you :)

Also the cat was on the #1,2 and 4 STU cars at the SD tour.

Congrats on the win!

Congratulations to you!!!

If I didn't already have a high-flow cat (Stromung pipe with some metal cat), I'd buy one of yours.

not to throw any more fuel on a fire that IMO is still a wee hot :) but there was talk on one of the ecu threads floating around (maybe a different site???) about the ecu's ability to fool the ready states- didn't read the entire thread but that thought that was interesting, not even certain that it could be done, but it does somewhat point to the folly of this "exercise"

<---- caveman who fully understood the old rule that you maintain one cat :)

Chris Shenefield on the STAC said they were going to have a call in April, so maybe my proposal will come up :(

we can hope :)

not to throw any more fuel on a fire that IMO is still a wee hot :) but there was talk on one of the ecu threads floating around (maybe a different site???) about the ecu's ability to fool the ready states- didn't read the entire thread but that thought that was interesting, not even certain that it could be done, but it does somewhat point to the folly of this "exercise"

<---- caveman who fully understood the old rule that you maintain one cat :)

I posed this question to an acomplished tuner and the answer was: that it is possible to read the value/s that the o2 sees under a 1 cat condition, and make those the value/s that the ECU maintains as acceptable or ready.

So the answer is yes you could re-program the ECU to make it fit the condition. I think that was what you were eluding to Big Sky, maybe I read the post wrong.

The issue would become you've used the ECU allowance to skirt the EPA requirements. :sadbanana: But who would know besides you and your acomplished tuner?

Damn treehuggers!

I posed this question to an acomplished tuner and the answer was: that it is possible to read the value/s that the o2 sees under a 1 cat condition, and make those the value/s that the ECU maintains as acceptable or ready.

So the answer is yes you could re-program the ECU to make it fit the condition. I think that was what you were eluding to Big Sky, maybe I read the post wrong.

The issue would become you've used the ECU allowance to skirt the EPA requirements. :sadbanana: But who would know besides you and your acomplished tuner?

Damn treehuggers!

Yeah. Local tuner suggested the same thing to me. Just adjust the scaling such that the voltage it reads is the voltage it thinks it needs to be "happy".

But can you just go in with your handy Tactrix cable and hex editor and flip a bit from Not Ready to Ready? Reset the ECU before the event and then flip all the bits to Ready and the car will never have time to hit a Fault state before the event is over but will read Ready on all tests.

The old rule was easy to enforce and well understood by everyone except the SEB and STAC apparently. It's easy to come up with a half dozen nearly undetectable ways to cheat under the new rules.

So here's my revalation:
I have 2 o2 bungs in my DP
I have a new o2 without a resistor
I have an old o2 with a resistor

I run both sensors. Resistor when not at an event. Non-resistor when in competition.

I could even install a switch to toggle between them. Simply ready state at all times, I'd bet. Is there a rule as to how many o2's you can have?

Believe me I've been in the box and out of the box with this clarification. So i'm not posting this to be a jerk.

Hey,
Hope all is well. Here is my $0.02 on your idea.

I think the dual set up with switch would be protestable. So, only the legal O2 sensor (without foolers) should be on the car during an event. So if you were to go this route you would need to physically switch them before, but it should keep the CEL off and ECU in ready state.

Really not the intent of the rule, but it would work.

Hope you have a great season!
Chris

If I remember correctly, this is what Chris was doing, or at least was planning on doing with his EGT last year.

That is true.

I was planning to do this with the EGT last year if I found the EGT failure rate to be a concern. What I found was that the EGT (that originally came with my car) never failed after I switched to the dual cat setup. So I never had to exercise that portion of my "plan".

Just a little background-
The reason I did the rework (with two cats) was to see if I could keep the P0420 code satisfied (which is in my mind the true OBD2 measure of emissions). So I really didn't want to swap O2 sensors before and after events. What would that have proved? I wanted to meet (in my mind) the intent of the rule.

I wasn't as concerned about swapping the EGT before the events. The EGT sensor has nothing to do with the emissions of my vehicle, so I didn't really care if I had to swap to a different sensor at the event site. In addition, if I had to go that route there was nothing illegal about it. I don't believe that keeping the EGT satisfied is the intent of the rule, just collateral damage...

I know that this won't change what each of you is planning to do this year, just wanted to explain my thought process.

Thanks for listening,
Chris

I know that this won't change what each of you is planning to do this year, just wanted to explain my thought process.

Thanks for listening,
Chris

Well, for now my plan is to start off simple and basic; one cat, O2 sensor behind the cat, gutted stock up pipe, and see what problems arise (hopefully none :) ) and then figure out what needs to be done from there...

Speaking of plans, what are your plans for the year now that the car is parted out?

I plan to run CS this season with Erik (from Chicago). We will be co-driving his MX-5 with the MS-R package. Should be different (and fun).

P.S. My Enkei's are still available if anyone wants excellent STX wheels.

Take care,
Chris

I plan to run CS this season with Erik (from Chicago). We will be co-driving his MX-5 with the MS-R package. Should be different (and fun).

P.S. My Enkei's are still available if anyone wants excellent STX wheels.

Take care,
Chris
I do! but Wisconsin is far! Can you send me a PM with what your asking for them?

I plan to run CS this season with Erik (from Chicago). We will be co-driving his MX-5 with the MS-R package. Should be different (and fun).

P.S. My Enkei's are still available if anyone wants excellent STX wheels.

Take care,
Chris

I do! but Wisconsin is far! Can you send me a PM with what your asking for them?

California's to far. What's your mid-west price?

:D

California's to far. What's your mid-west price?

:D
You've already got some.:diaf:

Scanned the I/M system again after last weekends event, 5 runs on the car, plus a quick trip back to my house (about 2 miles one way) and STILL not ready on the O2 sensor monitor.

I'm not even going to bother posting mileage any more, no sense in giving any curious, trolling non-WRX drivers some protest bait. :(

Sorry guys, I still haven't gotten my TurboXS two-cat gizmo mounted. I am going to have to do it before the 20th, tho (first points event) and I will report back ASAP with readiness/CELs.

john

It seems like there is no real good way of knowing when the car is in ready state. I remember when my car was initially tuned a year ago the CEL's were left on and it took all of two days for the P0420 to show up. Now that they are turned back on I'm just staring at the cluster every day waiting for it to turn back on. Its been two weeks and a little over 700 miles and no CEL's yet. But since everyone seems to be getting them (even with my same APS exhaust) I'm beginning to wonder if the ECU was reflashed properly and the defeats were actually turned off. I suppose the easy thing to do is disconnect the EGT probe and see if it throws a code.

Another update for everyone...

APS 3" TBE with high flow cat. Over 1100 miles with no CEL. Disconnected EGT probe to force a CEL to show up just to verify that they are correctly enabled in the ECU. CEL came on. Plugged EGT probe back in and the light went off.

So far its looking like a 1 cat setup that is "legal". My first auto-x for the season is this coming weekend. We'll see if I get a light at the event.

^ they must have a "good" cat in their setup- encouraging to see a one cat setup working :)

Its pretty big and looks like it flows pretty well. I should be getting a new engine tune sometime in the next 2 or 3 weeks. We'll see if it makes more power than the old setup.

Here are some pics of the APS cat.
DP assembly
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z297/bwithorn/Car%20Photos/IMG_0235.jpg
Looking at the catalyst
http://i191.photobucket.com/albums/z297/bwithorn/Car%20Photos/IMG_0236.jpg

it bolts up directly behind the cast bellmouth? that might be part of the "secret"?????

it bolts up directly behind the cast bellmouth? that might be part of the "secret"?????

Yeah. Top picture is order of assembly. You can see the O2 bung in the pipe that attaches right below the cat.

I've seen many of the single cat setups w/ the cat much further downstream- while one could argue that might make more power???, I can't help but think the further the cat is upstream the more effective it's going to be???

I've seen many of the single cat setups w/ the cat much further downstream- while one could argue that might make more power???, I can't help but think the further the cat is upstream the more effective it's going to be???

Fantastic thought!

This is entirely possible as it takes heat to get the catalyst working. The further you go back in the system the longer it takes to start working and the less likely it is to be hot enough to work properly.

One of my college professors did some case study to determine the length of time it takes an catalytic converter to start working. IIRC he determined that it takes 10 minutes of driving around to get the catalyst up to temp and working. This doesn't directly apply as it was a case study, but I think its relevant. The question is how long does it take our high-flow cats to warm up while idling before our runs?

Pending how long it truly takes for one of our high-flow converters to get up to temp, we may need the car on and idling for a good 10-20 minutes before our runs to keep from throwing a code. And then I wonder how long the emissions system is programmed to wait before taking readings? Is that the real purpose of the EGT probe? Measuring temp and time and estimating when to let the O2 sensor start feeding back into the ECU?


Did we just make this more complicated? :unamused:

Did we just make this more complicated? :unamused:


What is there to complicate? No CEL, no problem.

it's been complicated as soon as they came out w/ the "clarification"- the only way to make it uncomplicated is go back to the old one cat rule (my guess is that's a long shot)

What is there to complicate? No CEL, no problem.

I thought "ready state" went along w/ that as well

we had no cel's in the past, they changed the rules (sorry clarified) a wee bit on HOW you arrive at no cel's

I meant making the selection of components and putting together a "legal" exhaust more complicated...not the rules.

I thought "ready state" went along w/ that as well

we had no cel's in the past, they changed the rules (sorry clarified) a wee bit on HOW you arrive at no cel's



Sure, drive around with no CELs long enough and your car should be in "ready state."

As some people have posted in this thread, they've found single cat exhaust combinations that will not give them a CEL, or maybe not for many many miles or under certain conditions. So far, I don't think I've seen any single cat solution that is guaranteed to prevent CELs under all conditions for all users. The APS solution was already ruled out - someone posted earlier in this thread that the APS exhaust did eventually throw the P0420 CEL:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19676298&postcount=13
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21126711&postcount=94

^ that's probably not going make Scooby921 very happy

drive around long enough w/ no CEL's * and your car should be in ready state

* w/ no cel defeats/overrides/or other TomFoolery :)

It's not too hard if you have one of those one CEL in many many many miles setups. Or as McCance and Fenter were discussing a few posts ago, drive around with CEL defeats to stay CEL-free in a ready state and switch out the defeats at events. That's an option.

question- has anyone checked "readiness" whilst running any kind of cel defeat (mechanical or ecu)?

question- has anyone checked "readiness" whilst running any kind of cel defeat (mechanical or ecu)?
I don't have any cel defeats, but I run a STX legal tune:

I bought a scanner check for "readyness". You can attain readiness without 55-70mph steadystate highway driving. My observation is that the system is a little bit sensitive in that range if you don't vary your throttle position. As a result, I've concluded that my car will never throw a emission code during an autoX, but may during my highway drive if I get trapped in the sensitive speed range with a constant throttle for a minute or two.

Does anyone know what the magic combination is to achieve ready status?

^ that's probably not going make Scooby921 very happy

drive around long enough w/ no CEL's * and your car should be in ready state

* w/ no cel defeats/overrides/or other TomFoolery :)

The longest trip I've made with this exhaust has been a little over 2 hours. We'll see what happens when I make a 3 hour drive to South Bend this weekend. If it doesn't throw a code then, the next test is my drive to Atlanta for the Nat'l Tour.

What are the scan tools everyone is using? I suppose I need to buy one and figure out how long it takes my car to get into ready state. I may have to reset the ECU on my way to Atlanta to clear CEL's and then drive just long enough to get back into ready state.


I'm not giving up hope until my car shows me a code that I didn't intentionally create.

I will be found this year unclicking all of your o2 sensors in grid.


Cheers and happy motoring:D

What are the scan tools everyone is using? I suppose I need to buy one and figure out how long it takes my car to get into ready state. I may have to reset the ECU on my way to Atlanta to clear CEL's and then drive just long enough to get back into ready state.


I'm using an Actron CP9135, available from Amazon for ~$70, I got mine as part of my wedding registry at Sears ;) .

http://www.amazon.com/Actron-CP9135-AutoScanner-Diagnostic-Definitions/dp/B00009RAX7

Most of the monitors with be ready within just a few miles (less than 30) it's that O2 monitor thats a b*tch. I forgot to check mine again after last weekend's event, would have been a good time to check it too, 2 drivers and a long course (me running 68 seconds, other guy driving 70-72 seconds). I guess that whole me spinning out in a wide open slalom and taking out a chain link fence thing kinda threw off my concentration for the day... :rolleyes:

I will be found this year unclicking all of your o2 sensors in grid.


Cheers and happy motoring:D

Good, you'll be busy then when the rest of us stop by to do the same to your car (AND unscrew your gas cap, AND unhook your EGT) :p

I will be found this year unclicking all of your o2 sensors in grid.


Cheers and happy motoring:D

I will hopefully NOT be found disconnecting your throttle linkage :devil:








Gotta slow a guy down somehow :p

Picked up my exhaust from TurboXS on Friday.

http://tinyurl.com/2l8bwd
FWIW, I got my car (AFAIK) legal this weekend:
-Swapped to new Cobb STX base map (1.32) w/o CEL defeats
-Reinstalled EGT sensor in uppipe
-Put new TXS downpipe w/ TXS race pipe on

120 miles so far, no CELs yet. I need to get one of those scanner gizmos to test my readiness I guess, but I would say that easily 100 of those miles are freeway cruising between 45-65 mph. *crossing fingers*

john

Well I put my car back on the road last monday. More due to the fact that it gets better gas milage than the Excursion. Although I'd hate to get rear ended in my Auto-x car.

At the time I'm running a single cat Cobb DP. It was fine last year at nationals and I had logged ~ 1000 miles prior to the event with no issue. I did move the o2 about 3" further back and put a new one in.

I've now got another 250 on it since last monday, mixed driving, and haven't seen a light yet. The battery has been dead a couple times over the winter.

I have a pro-tune with the CEL's enabled.

:banana:

FWIW, I got my car (AFAIK) legal this weekend:
-Swapped to new Cobb STX base map (1.32) w/o CEL defeats
-Reinstalled EGT sensor in uppipe
-Put new TXS downpipe w/ TXS race pipe on

120 miles so far, no CELs yet. I need to get one of those scanner gizmos to test my readiness I guess, but I would say that easily 100 of those miles are freeway cruising between 45-65 mph. *crossing fingers*

john

Hey John. Can you please update now that a month has passed?

Oh yeah. Last time I checked I had well over 1000 miles and no CEL's yet. I am getting dyno'd today with the OTS Cobb map and will update after that for sure.

Oh yeah. Last time I checked I had well over 1000 miles and no CEL's yet. I am getting dyno'd today with the OTS Cobb map and will update after that for sure.

Mine are still hit and miss based on gas and weather, I think. I cleared the CEL before the drive from knoxville to ATL for double cross (May 17), and it hasn't come on again (yet). This has now been about 1000 miles of total driving.

I'm beginning to think there may be a relationship between no CEL's and the ethanol blended gas, because that's about all you can get now. I don't know.

Although it's not ideal, I have a solution that has me 2k+ miles and is still clean.

I've currently got the invidia Catted 1piece pipe, and the OEM up-pipe (isn't gutted yet).

Sure, it's got an OE cat, and sure i'm starving myself, but i'm CEL free.

Up-pipe is getting swapped soon, so i'll just be using the Invidia, havn't heard reports of it throwing CEL, so i'm crossing my fingers.

-Chip

I have a factory egt probe in my uppipe and have had no problems with it dying yet.

I'm beginning to think there may be a relationship between no CEL's and the ethanol blended gas, because that's about all you can get now. I don't know.

Well, that might explain some things since thats all I've ever been able to run.

BTW, reset the ecu a couple weeks ago, no cel's but had run some crap gas through. As of that time all the IM checks were good EXCEPT the O2 sensor. I don't even wanna say how many miles were on it... :(

Got the car dyno'd today. 225 whp, 224 ft/lb, with these mods:

Cobb STX basemap, no realtime
PDE uppipe
Borla header
K&N Intake
Samco inlet
TurboXS dual high-flow downpipe
Scoobysport axleback

My old STX ProTune (with the regular TXS bellmouth and only one cat) was 237 whp, and IIRC 232 ft/lb. (Both today and my ProTune were on a DynoJet) I figure I can get most of that back with another ProTune, just a question of finding time and stuff. Doesn't look like the OTS STX map does a whole lot.

And still no CEL's for me, 1100 miles so far.

john

Although it's not ideal, I have a solution that has me 2k+ miles and is still clean.

I've currently got the invidia Catted 1piece pipe, and the OEM up-pipe (isn't gutted yet).

Sure, it's got an OE cat, and sure i'm starving myself, but i'm CEL free.

Up-pipe is getting swapped soon, so i'll just be using the Invidia, havn't heard reports of it throwing CEL, so i'm crossing my fingers.

-Chip

Any updates from you about running just the Invidia DP?

Sorry to butt into the thread, btw. It's just that I was kinda thinking about getting into AutoX, but I also want to go stage 2, so naturally I will end up in STX. I figured a custom STX map without defeats and one high-flow cat ahead of the rear o2 bung should do nicely, but clearly that isn't the case...it is kinda odd to me that the STi and 06-07 WRX would throw an MIL with a cat in the dowpipe, since the arrangement of o2 sensors is around only one cat in the first place...I guess the OEM is just that much more effective at cleaning the exhaust...

Another update for everyone...

APS 3" TBE with high flow cat. Over 1100 miles with no CEL. Disconnected EGT probe to force a CEL to show up just to verify that they are correctly enabled in the ECU. CEL came on. Plugged EGT probe back in and the light went off.

So far its looking like a 1 cat setup that is "legal". My first auto-x for the season is this coming weekend. We'll see if I get a light at the event.

I can add that I put 6000 miles on a 2004 STU STi with the APS 3" single cat TBE and no EM without a single CEL. This was at altitude in CO FWIW...

I can add that I put 6000 miles on a 2004 STU STi with the APS 3" single cat TBE and no EM without a single CEL. This was at altitude in CO FWIW...

I'm up to 4000 miles now without any codes.

Updated on the MadDad high flow 3rd cat w/ relocated O2 sensor...

All is good finally! Slapped on the muffler and took a road trip out to Denver last weekend, checked the I/M statuses on the way back and everything checked out in a ready state :)

Again, the setup is a gutted stock up pipe, Stromung catless dp, and the MadDad high flow 3rd cat.

Updated on the MadDad high flow 3rd cat w/ relocated O2 sensor...

All is good finally! Slapped on the muffler and took a road trip out to Denver last weekend, checked the I/M statuses on the way back and everything checked out in a ready state :)

Again, the setup is a gutted stock up pipe, Stromung catless dp, and the MadDad high flow 3rd cat.

On my STU STi, I have a Perrin catless DP, Maddad 3rd cat and 800 miles, mixed, with no codes.

Looking for a recommendation;

I'm currently running a catless uppipe and helix catted dp (its been said this may or may not throw a CEL), but my uppipe has no EGT bung, so it's not currently legal.

Is anyone running a single catted dp and a highflow catted up, I'm wondering if this will do or if you need 2 cats in the dp to be sure.

I only plan on running local events and improving my driving for now, so if it's going to take a lot of $$$ to be "legal" I'll just see if the STX'ers are ok with me running my stock map to be fair.

No, you don't need two cats in the downpipe, and running a high flow catted up pipe and a single catted downpipe would probably be more than sufficient to keep the sensors happy.

No, you don't need two cats in the downpipe, and running a high flow catted up pipe and a single catted downpipe would probably be more than sufficient to keep the sensors happy.

thanks, I'll see how far I get with the catless/EGTless up for a while but this good to hear.

The cheapest way (though I don't know if anyone has tried it) would be to run a normal one cat downpipe, use an antifouler to keep it out of the exhaust stream (thus not throwing CELs) and then, before your autox event, remove the antifouler, run your runs, and then put it back in.

Not really the intent of the rule but I think that would be the easiest solution that would keep you "impound legal" ;)

I don't think by the ruleset that you can run egt-less in the upppipe, my understanding is "they" consider the egt probe part of the emissions system

Oh, yeah, not trying to say you don't need the EGT in the uppipe. But if you took care of that, you can get around the downpipe part.

The cheapest way (though I don't know if anyone has tried it) would be to run a normal one cat downpipe, use an antifouler to keep it out of the exhaust stream (thus not throwing CELs) and then, before your autox event, remove the antifouler, run your runs, and then put it back in.

Not really the intent of the rule but I think that would be the easiest solution that would keep you "impound legal" ;)

Definately not the intent but seeing how hit-and-miss things are that might be the way to go.

Right now it seems completely left to luck since some people have run a single cat clean and some trigger CELs, I think a rule allowing the switch to highflow cats along with the removal of ONE of multiple stock cats would fit the intent and keep us all safe from CELs. The only problem I could see with this is that it might affect other cars differently, but if it's only wrx's with this issue I would be happy with that rule (a little ticked that I'd have to get a 2nd cat in there but at least it would be clear that I need to do that). Has something like this already been proposed?

Now is anyone having problems with the EGT throwing a CEL, or is it pretty much just the O2 sensor? I guess that could muddy the waters some more.

btw since it isn't clear that I NEED two cats I would feel fine fixing the EGT and running the antifouler (and this solution would make me and my wallet happiest), i'd expect a little animosity from anyone who switched over to a "legit" exhaust system that doesn't need it though...

Right now it seems completely left to luck since some people have run a single cat clean and some trigger CELs, I think a rule allowing the switch to highflow cats along with the removal of ONE of multiple stock cats would fit the intent and keep us all safe from CELs. The only problem I could see with this is that it might affect other cars differently, but if it's only wrx's with this issue I would be happy with that rule (a little ticked that I'd have to get a 2nd cat in there but at least it would be clear that I need to do that). Has something like this already been proposed?Trust me... the rules are not going to change in any way that will make our 2.0L WRX's lives easier. I wrote a 17 page proposal full of logic and facts and stuff and it pretty much bounced off. Even suggestions to close loopholes for other cars (i.e. OBD-0 cars) have so far been ignored.

For local events I think this is a fine solution. If you were running national stuff and doing well people might look at you more skeptically but as long as there isn't a CEL and you're not hiding one, I don't see how anyone could protest you.

To add a little more headache to the issue, at least for myself, I've recently discovered that brand of gasoline has an effect as well.

Sunoco 93 or 94 - OK
Shell 93 - OK
Mobil 93 - OK
BP 93 - CEL

To add a little more headache to the issue, at least for myself, I've recently discovered that brand of gasoline has an effect as well.

Sunoco 93 or 94 - OK
Shell 93 - OK
Mobil 93 - OK
BP 93 - CEL

That's something I've been wondering about. I never threw codes, even when I was running a catless dp with the stock 3rd cat and O2 sensor in place, with the O2 sensor right in the raw, uncatalyzed exhaust stream. In Iowa the only gas you can buy that's not 10% ethanol is 87 octane. I've wondered if that's had an effect.

I know that I'll be playing it on the safe side and bringing a can of gas from home to Topeka.

Am I assuming correctly that the Injen catted downpipe wouldn't be legal because of the senser tube design?

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/shop/images/SES1202DP.jpg

good question- clearly "we" can't add a tube like that, but what if it comes w/ one already- what if the manufacturer designed another way around the cel and was incorporated into the design?

I think there's much debate to be had there.

On one hand, you could consider antifoulers legal if downpipes that came with out-of-stream tubes are. The reason is, you could add the antifouler, tack weld it on, and call it a BigSky Downpipe, making YOU the manufacturer. At that point, you might as well just make antifoulers legal again.

On the other hand, any downpipe that changes the O2 sensor location from stock could be considered illegal since that location will also change how it reads, just like an antifouler does. The problem here is that the stock DP has the O2 in a swirl chamber, and no other DP does. This means EVERY aftermarket DP alters how and where the O2 sensor is located compared to stock, thus "fooling" the ODBII system just like the antifoulers do.

Of course, back to the 1st hand, if any aftermarket DP's are considered legal (since they ALL alter the O2 location), then any device that relocates the O2 sensor on a DP must be as well.

I still say if they wanted the cars to have to run their stock DP's, they should have just said so, endured the whining, and come out with at least an comprehensive rule instead of this anamorphic mess they have now.

Of course, you could look at it as - if the competitors don't understand the rule, they likely would never file a protest on it.

good points

new debate now on "turbo" heat shields vs exhaust shields- clearly every bellmouth/divorced aftermarket downpipe needs some trimming of the heat shield :(

I wouldn't touch your heatshields until a Fastrack or two. Max said in the other thread that the STAC was aware of it and was not trying to ban downpipes :)

good deal :)

Oh are things still up in the air as to what is legal and what isn't for next year? :confused: I will say that I have just not kept up with things and quit worrying about it because I don't have the time nor money to futz with changes every 6 months for clarifications and the like.

Heat shields: I thought that the clarity of cutting one's heat shielding was solved a few years ago? :confused:

O2 sensors/downpipes: So, if I read the previous comments correctly, it's legal to have a downpipe with a form of extension on it, but the antifoulers are not legal? (Who makes those downpipes by the way? I knew someone did but don't know who.) :)

-Biggly

Downpipes - I've been told that the downpipes with the O2 extensions built-in are NOT legal (despite there being a rule allowing you to relocate the O2 sensor). Of course, ANY DP has O2 extensions, just some are long, some are really short, but NONE mount it like the stock one does. I really don't know how to reconcile the existing rules with this regard. Either we're allowed to move the O2 sensor or we are not. If so, bring the antifoulers back. If not, put your stock DP back on.

Heat shields - I've been told this was a mess-up in wording. They meant to make removing the heatshields attached to parts you are allowed to replace legal so you would be forced into putting the stock heatshields on your new DP. However, this doesn't make sense to me since they specifically mentioned the turbo heat shield in excluding it from the rule allowing you to remove or modify it. It's more likely to me that, again, more bad backlash is going cause a retraction and the turbo heatshield will be allowed to be modified, but not removed.

I'm not prone to conpiracy theories but, if they aren't trying to force stock DP's back onto these cars, they're doing a great job of making it sound like they are...

Ah. Clear as mud. :lol:

Downpipes: I have to change the one on my car eventually, so I was going to make an attempt to be legal while I was at it. No point in even making the attempt since 2 full years after the clarification, nothing is any clearer.

Heat shields: I think that they may go for the 'minimum amount necessary' wording, a la brake dust shields? At least that's what they should aim for...it would seem lightly consistent. Oh wait, that's not their goal at all. :lol: The turbo heat shield is a stupid item to focus on; no good can come of fooling with that to be honest (i.e. it offers no actual competitive advantage to futz with it...the only reason to focus on this is to try and force a change from an incorrect perspective....say use the turbo heat shield to force stock downpipes for example.) It's cutting away at most a few ounces of thin metal; less than the weight of a beer that they serve at awards. :)

-Biggly

Don't take what I say as "It's useless to do anything"...

I now think that folks in the class know better what is ok and what is not. I don't normally say stuff like that, I usually have more confidence in those who volunteer their time to do a job I don't envy. BUT, when they take something simple, then make it so convoluted that a year later, there can still be debate about it, there comes a point where the folks in a class will simply just stop worrying about complying with it and stop worrying about protesting it.

I think the same of the heat shield issue. I believe most in the class think that trimming it to fit is ok, but removing it is not. Why, if they were going to bother to specifically mention the Subaru turbo heat shield in the first place, they did not simply say it like that, I will never know.

Heh, it's much like having a rule that says we can reprogram the ECU, but you can't turn off the ODB codes in said program. However, you CAN alter the O2 sensor parameters in the program to be within the limits of activating the CEL.

Or, having the clarification about ODBII, not allowing resistor mods, but allowing you to replace your O2 sensor with ANY O2 sensor. So, what if I took an O2 sensor, made the resistors a part of it, and sold it as a Splashy O2 sensor? It would still be legal because the words ANY O2 sensor means just that... ANY O2 sensor.

OBD is a relative system. It depends on a sensor that reads a certain range, and a ECM that is programmed to test that signal to make sure it is in that range. Since we are basically allowed to futz with either end, using the CEL for enforcement is a moot point.

I harken back to the day (and it wasn't that long ago) that everyone understood the STX rules :(

to think that a "clarification" is what has totally muddled the entire situation seems very ironic

Really, the clarification itself wasn't that complex. It's the ramifications of it that make it so.

Still, I harken back to the day when you could tell whether a car (or part) was illegal or not just by looking at it. DP not have a cat? Illegal. The cat nowhere near the original ones? Illegal. Simple, easy. The problem with this new stuff, is that seeing it isn't enough. It would be possible for every STX/U car at nationals to be illegal and nobody would know unless they were tested for the exact condition desired.

Back in the day, it was pretty simple to see something that might/should be/is illegal, and a protest would then be justified almost immediately. Now, you have to protest first and take a wild guess as to what exactly to file the protest for. THEN you find out if you were right. This change alone might make protesting for this stuff a non-worthwhile venture.

If anything, it opens the door for non-sportsmanlike protests. Imagine the poor sucker who has a battery or battery cable problem, fixes it for the 2nd day, just to get protested for ready-state because the protestor just so happened to walk by and see the battery disconnected and KNEW it would never be in ready state before the end of the event.

The reality at Nationals this year (and last), was that we were all so confused by the rule, that we all just went with what we thought was reasonable. Downpipe, check. High flo cat, check. Heat shield, who cares (the winners in 07 and 06 did not have one at all).

Whilst the rule maybe a joke, the competitors in STU are all reasonable people:D

Actually, a few of discussed protesting the winner's lack of heatshield, but since Mr. Pinkie Punk's wife was super hot, we let him off:D

Really, the clarification itself wasn't that complex. It's the ramifications of it that make it so.

Still, I harken back to the day when you could tell whether a car (or part) was illegal or not just by looking at it. DP not have a cat? Illegal. The cat nowhere near the original ones? Illegal. Simple, easy. The problem with this new stuff, is that seeing it isn't enough. It would be possible for every STX/U car at nationals to be illegal and nobody would know unless they were tested for the exact condition desired.

Back in the day, it was pretty simple to see something that might/should be/is illegal, and a protest would then be justified almost immediately. Now, you have to protest first and take a wild guess as to what exactly to file the protest for. THEN you find out if you were right. This change alone might make protesting for this stuff a non-worthwhile venture.

If anything, it opens the door for non-sportsmanlike protests. Imagine the poor sucker who has a battery or battery cable problem, fixes it for the 2nd day, just to get protested for ready-state because the protestor just so happened to walk by and see the battery disconnected and KNEW it would never be in ready state before the end of the event.

Amen to that. I find it hugely stupid that for example Phil & Jen Croy had real, actual emissions tests with exhaust sniffer and could pass, yet were considered illegal from the SCCA's emissions standpoint because a light in the dash was considered more authoritative. :lol:

Plus I didn't know that folks were still considering the 'ready-state' nonsense. I mean really, that's an allowable protest? Or is that more Internet protesting? :)

-Biggly believes that SCCAforums is really just the home of the Internet Protest Committees

If anything, it opens the door for non-sportsmanlike protests. Imagine the poor sucker who has a battery or battery cable problem, fixes it for the 2nd day, just to get protested for ready-state because the protestor just so happened to walk by and see the battery disconnected and KNEW it would never be in ready state before the end of the event.

Tuesday morning at Nationals this year. Went to start to car to warm it up and it was dead. We rolled it out of the way for someone else in our camp on monday and turned the key to unlock the steering, never turned it back :(

That was the ONLY good thing I could say about not getting a single good clean or major mistake free run in between my co-driver and I. (at least on the first day, Ron ended up saving face and getting a decent run in on day 2)

I'm not prone to conpiracy theories but, if they aren't trying to force stock DP's back onto these cars, they're doing a great job of making it sound like they are...

I'm pretty much convinced they're not intentionally doing anything. That's the confusing/frustrating part.

It's just a willy/nilly kneejerk reaction to someone saying yeah that was/is the intent of ST*.:disco:

Scenario:
APS long intake, creates lean condition when installed on car. Pops cel if driven without tuning. Tune car chance of CEL is gone, and it's obviously safer for the engine.

Same thing as the o2, latent chance of CEL is there. You've used one legal mod to perform something that is illegal, you've masked it or reduced the chance of occurence. That's the issue with the CEL thing as other have mentioned, battery, gas cap, maf sensor....etc, etc, etc.

I think Seb said it best last year. "It's the new 800 lb gorrila in the room everyone will just try to ignore" :lol:

Ultimately I see it more as trying to keep cars off of trailers (*SP). But that's just my opinion.

Some more weird data....My STX car has been retired, but it still has the STX exhaust which consists of a gutted uppipe, a Bosal divorced wastegate shorty DP, and custom from there back, with the single high flow cat AFTER the second O2 sensor.
After the clarification, I took out the EGT resistor and never threw a code because the car never got into ready mode (trailered).

I've been daily driving it for the past few months, and now it throws the EGT code sometimes, but still has not thrown a PO420.:confused:

This is using crap 91oct California gas.

The ready-state debate came up because, during the initial reactions to the "clarifichange", someone suggested they just reset the ECU before your runs. It would take a while for any CEL to re-appear under such conditions.

As a result, they responded with statement that said ready-state condition was considered part of OBD compliance. In other words, should some protest you for emissions non-compliance, there would be two conditions you would have to meet.

1) status of the CEL light. If it's on, yer done (irregardless of what really caused it).

2) they'll check the ECU to make sure it's in ready state, which could have been used to mask a CEL-causing condition. If it's not in ready state, you fail.

I really hope this never has a chance to actually get tested, it will be a colossal mess if it does. There are 50 ways to test, and 51 ways to counter/get around them. In the end, the whole sh'bang would end up getting decided by the opinion of the Protest Committee, or then by the Appeals Committee. Either way, it's a bad situation.

Great post....

Any updates to CEL's? any success with single cat DP's? Any new dual cat DP's that are working out?

Also, has anyone ever thrown a CEL with a single catted DP and still had their catted uppipe?

I get a misfire every once in a while. I think it happened twice last year. I have new plugs now and I don't think it's related to emissions.

My custom TurboXS downpipe is still going strong. I'll post the dyno charts when I get em.

APS 3.5" turboback with MIL.SPEC 100 Cell Race cat and no CEL's after two events and about 500 miles of driving.

Do you have an uppipe?

Do you have the APS high flow cat and the mil.spec cat or just the mil.spec???

Any updates to CEL's? any success with single cat DP's? Any new dual cat DP's that are working out?

Also, has anyone ever thrown a CEL with a single catted DP and still had their catted uppipe?


STI, but I've had a MadDad 3rd cat and a non-catted downpipe for 6 months now and have yet to throw a CEL.

My old exhaust (with the o2 sensor in front of the only cat) threw a CEL at least once a week.

Do u have an uppipe?

Do u have the APS high flow cat and the mil.spec cat or just the mil.spec???

2006 STi, stock uppipe. The APS 3.5" turboback is catless, so I'm running just the MIL.SPEC cat in the downpipe shortly after the turbo.

http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/18/l_f0e08913652d4610809a54ffc04fd350.jpg
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/33/l_0e1ee53f1ca34cd8a58dfee22607ae7a.jpg

STI, but I've had a MadDad 3rd cat and a non-catted downpipe for 6 months now and have yet to throw a CEL.

My old exhaust (with the o2 sensor in front of the only cat) threw a CEL at least once a week.

Been running the MadDad 3rd cat, catless dp, and gutted stock up since last spring. Threw 2 cel's in the last year, one after last years co-driver borrowed the car and filled it up with gas from some small town station, and one after switching from the stock airbox to a K&N typhoon (but there were more problems than just a cel that time...)

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/penderperson/WRXcat-CELspreadsheet.jpg

have those people running a protune with uppipe and only one cat gotten the same number of CEL's? How about anyone who knows they have good gas??


So, since no one with a stock uppipe has had a problem, y is everyone running an uppipe?