Hello Everyone,

Thanks to the hard work by my tuner Master2192 (Sean, who passed away in a tragic accident with his WRX) I've acquired the MAPs from his girlfriend which a lot of you have been eagerly awaiting.

These maps were used to tune my car w/ various mods and I would not recommend using them as is (unless your car is remarkably similar). With some tweaking they should be quite nice.

I will not be providing any support for these maps and it comes as-is. These are free to all, so please don't go posting them elsewhere asking for $$.

Noteworthy mods when maps were taken:
Genuine Borla UEL Headers
Highflow Cat
2.5" 1 piece magnaflow exhaust w/ resonator
LW Crank Pulley
Injen Cold Air Intake

DOWNLOAD: http://rapidshare.de/files/38768737/2007_2.5i_-_Manual.zip.html

All credit goes to the man who made it possible and to who was immensely respected in the NASIOC community: Sean, (Master2192)

You have been 'mastertuned.'

Hats off to the man who did N/A Tuning
My condolences.

At the same time, I'm sure we could all use this with great appreciation.

When I first found out that he passed I was really upset because I was emailing back and forth with my map asking him to modify it for me. I never knew him, wish I had. Am at a loss for words.

Yeah, that is a huge bummer. I remember reading a bunch of posts by him and thats part of what got me into OpenSource tuning, our loss for sure. Thanks a bunch for the maps, i cant wait to look @ them.

sad to hear :(....so i can got to any performance place give them the map but tune it so its works right for my car?

Actually, if you wait a little bit, one of my friends here in town who worked closely with Sean is setting up a website that will contain every tune Sean ever did. His girlfriend has given the laptop to someone with the knowledge to hunt down and extract the ROMs and correlate them to the car they belong to (for a mod list). All that will end up on the site.

Frighteningly, if you have NA tuning questions, it looks like I'm the person to ask with Sean no longer with us.

:gulp:

williaty, that will be a great website to put together. I'd like my car to be "Mastertuned".

RIP Master2192

wow good lookin out to seans gf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !
masters work while not nasa or anything ment and means alot to alot of people. so thanks seans girlfriend.

so whats up i had similar mods to this guy i have an intake lightwieght crank pulley mostly stock exausht except for wrx axleback . how much tweeking do you think it would take to make this rock for my ride .

man i wish master was around.

can anyone lend a hand? im new to tuning , have all the goods (romraider/ecuflash/tac cable/ current defs/)to get it done , just dont have the knowlege yet can anyone help ?

i know wility threw down on another post about tuning the ecu good lookin out dude. hey is it possible you could offer more help? you seem to be the man right now as far as n/a tuning goes

Well, what do you want to know?

well id like to know pretty much like ok , im looking at all these parameters right. explain this to me , how do i know what the the target # should be ? like im lost . i understand how to use the software just dont understand what im supposed to tweek. its like if i had a calculator and understood that you push a # a # apears and you can change the #'s and stuff but i dont understand math . thats how it is with me and ecu tuning . also should i reflash my ecu with this map or just wait untill that website comes up you were talking about. and do you have knowledge of when thats going to be up. i want my ecu tuned so bad. maybe you know whats up , i could log like mad if you are into tuning it out for me?

Actually, if you wait a little bit, one of my friends here in town who worked closely with Sean is setting up a website that will contain every tune Sean ever did. His girlfriend has given the laptop to someone with the knowledge to hunt down and extract the ROMs and correlate them to the car they belong to (for a mod list). All that will end up on the site.

Frighteningly, if you have NA tuning questions, it looks like I'm the person to ask with Sean no longer with us.

:gulp:

I have two (89 and 91) maps that Sean provided for us '05 guys. I'll throw them out there if they aren't already available/provided. Also, I'd be willing to share my own ROM as well, although I think thats better suited to a ROMraider thread. You are a self-proclaimed n/a expert Ty, congrats! :D

well id like to know pretty much like ok , im looking at all these parameters right. explain this to me , how do i know what the the target # should be ? like im lost . i understand how to use the software just dont understand what im supposed to tweek. its like if i had a calculator and understood that you push a # a # apears and you can change the #'s and stuff but i dont understand math . thats how it is with me and ecu tuning . also should i reflash my ecu with this map or just wait untill that website comes up you were talking about. and do you have knowledge of when thats going to be up. i want my ecu tuned so bad. maybe you know whats up , i could log like mad if you are into tuning it out for me?

In short there is no 'target #' per say for most of the parameters you can to tune. The parameters depend on many factors such as mods/climate/fuel etc. Two identical cars could individually perform better with custom tunes.

Here's a starting point:
http://www.romraider.com/Documentation/RomRaiderFAQ

The two books at the bottom of that page are great for those with little background. It takes studying, time, and patience if you really want to understand your car and what the heck you are tuning.

would have to buy this>> http://tunertools.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TAC%2DOPSUBDBW <<then use the maps that you have?

would have to buy this>> http://tunertools.com/proddetail.asp?prod=TAC%2DOPSUBDBW <<then use the maps that you have?

thanks dude ive gotten that far

In short there is no 'target #' per say for most of the parameters you can to tune. The parameters depend on many factors such as mods/climate/fuel etc. Two identical cars could individually perform better with custom tunes.

Here's a starting point:
http://www.romraider.com/Documentation/RomRaiderFAQ

The two books at the bottom of that page are great for those with little background. It takes studying, time, and patience if you really want to understand your car and what the heck you are tuning.


ive accually allready bought the jeff hartman book and have been reading it . i ve also been on the opensource forums and have been trying to learn , but im such a noob at ecu tuning . im more of like ohh my water pump is shot let me fix it and upgrade it while im at it . but looking at some of the dynos of tuned 07 2.5i's man thats some untapped free power . i realize that in modern cars its all about the ecu . ive managed to pull my stock rom . and ive been checking out how to use the software , i feel comfortable using it i just like i said dont know what i should be tweeking and why

ive accually allready bought the jeff hartman book and have been reading it . i ve also been on the opensource forums and have been trying to learn , but im such a noob at ecu tuning . im more of like ohh my water pump is shot let me fix it and upgrade it while im at it . but looking at some of the dynos of tuned 07 2.5i's man thats some untapped free power . i realize that in modern cars its all about the ecu . ive managed to pull my stock rom . and ive been checking out how to use the software , i feel comfortable using it i just like i said dont know what i should be tweeking and why

A good starting point might be to compare the timing map, fueling map, and OL/CL parameters between your base ROM and the ROM's available above. This will allow you to gain insight on one tuner's (SEAN-RIP) strategy. Again, every car is different, but this be helpful starting point provided you understand the ECU and it's knock control strategy.:cool:

Frankly there isn't alot of 'untapped free power' available without bolt on modifications and moving to a higher octane (89-91). Even with bolt ons and higher octane you don't have unlimited freedom in adding timing. You'll find knock sooner than later with pump gas. Understand the ECU and you'll find an answer to your 'why' questions

What are your mods and goals for the car? Are you willing to settle on a higher octane fuel? What is the fuel quality in your region?

well right now i have a lightwieght crank pulley cosmo short ram intake that i put a k and n x stream filter on. , wrx axle back but im putting on a sti axle back this week ,ive done up all the brakes and im working on suspention right now. stainless steel clutch line , ive changed out mad bushings and stuff but i think thats it as far as performance mods go.
im down with the higher octane. i can get 93 all over. used to be able to get 94 but sunoco doesnt sell it anymore. the 2.5i block is too thin to turbo so i just want this one to breath right .

as far as goals for the car i just dont want to get rear ended by a tractor trailer while trying to change lanes in traffic. i think ill be happy with the power i have once the ecu is tuned right.

Really, the only thing you've got that you can tune for (and you need to) is the Cosmo intake. Follow my MAF Scaling tutorial on here or just use the MAF tool in the alpha 785 build of RomRaider.

hey Williaty, i cant find the alpha 785 build on the romraider website. You have any links to it?

v 785 here:

http://www.assembla.com/spaces/files/bpcJ-CWjar3k3babIlDkbG

thx LT

where can i read how to use the MAF tool in the 785 build? Im running the 785 build but havnt found the MAF scaling tool. just curious how my rescale using williatys HOWTO and the MAF scaling tool compare. thx.

but i still dont fully understand how to do it i read it all....

do what? read what all?

Search on RomRaider's forum, there's a thread about the MAF tool. Actually, I think there's at least 2 threads about it on here.

It's pretty much plug and play, but you should probably read what the dev has to say about it.

k, thanks. Ill try the search on romraider again, i didnt log in the first time and the search wasnt in the forum.. duh! much better results this time.

Actually, I can't even find the post I'm talking about, so:

1) Open RomRaider
2) Open a saved copy of the ROM currently loaded into the ECU
3) Launch the RomRaiderLogger
4) Select the MAF tab
5) Set the values along the left side to reasonable values
6) Click Record Data
7) Drive around for about an hour moving your right foot as slowly as possible
8) Click Record Data to stop collecting data
9) Disconnect the laptop from the car but DON'T close the logger or the MAF tool tab
10) Select an order and click Interpolate.
11) Try each order for the polyfit (clicking Interpolate after each change of order) to figure out which one best fits the data you have
12) Set the MAF Scaling update range (left side) to the voltage range you want to update
13) Click Update MAF (and tell it you're really sure)
14) Close the logger
15) Save the now-modified ROM under a new name
16) Flash this new ROM into the ECU
17) Repeat steps 1-16 until you're satisfied with your scaling

Actually, I can't even find the post I'm talking about, so:

1) Open RomRaider
2) Open a saved copy of the ROM currently loaded into the ECU
3) Launch the RomRaiderLogger
4) Select the MAF tab
5) Set the values along the left side to reasonable values
6) Click Record Data
7) Drive around for about an hour moving your right foot as slowly as possible
8) Click Record Data to stop collecting data
9) Disconnect the laptop from the car but DON'T close the logger or the MAF tool tab
10) Select an order and click Interpolate.
11) Try each order for the polyfit (clicking Interpolate after each change of order) to figure out which one best fits the data you have
12) Set the MAF Scaling update range (left side) to the voltage range you want to update
13) Click Update MAF (and tell it you're really sure)
14) Close the logger
15) Save the now-modified ROM under a new name
16) Flash this new ROM into the ECU
17) Repeat steps 1-16 until you're satisfied with your scaling


Thanks! I found some more data on the romraider forum and checked here before going to try again and viola! a step by step by Williaty! simply outstanding!

i didnt realize this tool was in the logger, thought it was just used on the rom image data, not while driving. makes total sense. k, im off to burn a tank of gas!

nice man by doing this process and reduing the maf values will i throw anything else out of wack?


Actually, I can't even find the post I'm talking about, so:

1) Open RomRaider
2) Open a saved copy of the ROM currently loaded into the ECU
3) Launch the RomRaiderLogger
4) Select the MAF tab
5) Set the values along the left side to reasonable values
6) Click Record Data
7) Drive around for about an hour moving your right foot as slowly as possible
8) Click Record Data to stop collecting data
9) Disconnect the laptop from the car but DON'T close the logger or the MAF tool tab
10) Select an order and click Interpolate.
11) Try each order for the polyfit (clicking Interpolate after each change of order) to figure out which one best fits the data you have
12) Set the MAF Scaling update range (left side) to the voltage range you want to update
13) Click Update MAF (and tell it you're really sure)
14) Close the logger
15) Save the now-modified ROM under a new name
16) Flash this new ROM into the ECU
17) Repeat steps 1-16 until you're satisfied with your scaling

also hey whats up so how do i upgrade to like 93 octane then? i find it hard to believe that this maf tool will give me an all around awsome tune?? learn me something my friend. or is it like i should be logging with 93 octane and adjusting for those values its creating? wouldnt i need to adjust the timing as well ? im reading your maf scaling tutorial right now

i didnt realize this tool was in the logger, thought it was just used on the rom image data, not while driving. makes total sense. k, im off to burn a tank of gas!

Best of luck with the MAF tool, please post your results. I had to rerun it twice (an hour of driving each time) to get less than +-3% fuel trims (my target for now). Curious to see how it works for others.:cool:

also hey whats up so how do i upgrade to like 93 octane then? i find it hard to believe that this maf tool will give me an all around awsome tune?? learn me something my friend. or is it like i should be logging with 93 octane and adjusting for those values its creating? wouldnt i need to adjust the timing as well ? im reading your maf scaling tutorial right now

Did you read those tuning books front to back yet (as well as all of the tuning FAQ on here and ROMraider)? Do you understand what the MAF is and why you'd want to rescale it? The MAF is one sensor and rescaling it won't give you an 'all around awesome tune.' We can't 'learn you' unless you do a little homework first my friend. You don't upgrade to 93 octane, it may allow you to run more timing with a well maintained and properly tuned car as a result of decreased detonation tendencies. Seriously, you have to fully understand how your car works before you go reflashing the ROM. There are alot of really knowledgable (like Williaty :D) and patient people on this forum that are willing to help provided you have a basic understanding of your ECU and tuning.

Best of luck with the MAF tool, please post your results. I had to rerun it twice (an hour of driving each time) to get less than +-3% fuel trims (my target for now). Curious to see how it works for others.

I was @ +-4% in CL after manually rescaling, depending on outside temp's and such, before running the MAF tool and im not too sure what I'm @ now. Id like to get close to 1% ultimately. maybe thats not realistic, though. I don't think i got good data or something. Ill be doing a bunch more logging with the MAF scaling tool, though. Ill post my results here, ASAP.

nice man by doing this process and reduing the maf values will i throw anything else out of wack?
Re-scaling your MAF values will change the calculated load (in theory making it more accurate). This will change where you are on any load-referencing table (primarily timing and fueling). You may need to tweak the overall tune to reflect the new load points.

also hey whats up so how do i upgrade to like 93 octane then? i find it hard to believe that this maf tool will give me an all around awsome tune?? learn me something my friend. or is it like i should be logging with 93 octane and adjusting for those values its creating? wouldnt i need to adjust the timing as well ? im reading your maf scaling tutorial right now

All MAF scaling does is to make the ECUs calculation of the amount of air entering the engine more accurate. It doesn't magically tune any other part of your car.

Before trying to tune for higher-octane fuel, you need to make sure you're not already tuned for it. For instance, my 05 came tuned for 93 even though it called for 87. It used the knock control strategy to handle the difference.

Also, you need to learn A LOT more before you adjust anything. If you go in with your current level of knowledge, you WILL blow your engine.

Best of luck with the MAF tool, please post your results. I had to rerun it twice (an hour of driving each time) to get less than +-3% fuel trims (my target for now). Curious to see how it works for others.:cool:

The MAF tool is an iterative process. It's very possible that you'll have to run it many times to get it dialed in. Don't expect to only run it one or two times.

I was @ +-4% in CL after manually rescaling, depending on outside temp's and such, before running the MAF tool and im not too sure what I'm @ now. Id like to get close to 1% ultimately. maybe thats not realistic, though. I don't think i got good data or something. Ill be doing a bunch more logging with the MAF scaling tool, though. Ill post my results here, ASAP.

Most of the guys seem to be shooting for <5% for AFL B and C with AFL D being as close to 0 as possible. Some people are recommending AFL A be ~-5% with AFL B also being slightly negative. In the event of an O2 sensor failure, this would cause the car to idle slightly rich, which is much better than idling lean. Supposedly it also eases the transition when you stomp it near idle too.

seriously no doubt i dont want to blow my engine!!!!!!!!!! i am learning and an admited noob when it comes to ecu tuning, and dont even realize what exactly is happening. i understand how an engine works and all , internal combustion turning a crank and all that , no i havent done all my homework yet . i will read and come back when im done most likely with plenty of questions. thanks guys

Most of the guys seem to be shooting for <5% for AFL B and C with AFL D being as close to 0 as possible. Some people are recommending AFL A be ~-5% with AFL B also being slightly negative. In the event of an O2 sensor failure, this would cause the car to idle slightly rich, which is much better than idling lean. Supposedly it also eases the transition when you stomp it near idle too.

Yes, that makes good sense to error on the side of caution. I will probably get my AFL's as good as I can, and then adjust AFL A to be slightly rich, if it isn't already. thanks Williaty.

Any suggestions aboput where to get an WB O2 @? Im putting my HFC and headers and catback on in a couple days here and might wait to put a WB O2 @ the same time since it should require adding a bung.

Get an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 from a local shop if they'll offer good pricing (mine did) or tunertools.com with the discount code "enginuity" if you can't find a good deal locally.

You're going to want to mount your exhaust once before you tell the shop where to weld your bung as some of the best looking locations turn out to be blocked by the tranny. Wherever you do mount it, make sure that you have room for the body of the sensor plus the stiff part of the cable without running into anything.

seriously no doubt i dont want to blow my engine!!!!!!!!!! i am learning and an admited noob when it comes to ecu tuning, and dont even realize what exactly is happening. i understand how an engine works and all , internal combustion turning a crank and all that , no i havent done all my homework yet . i will read and come back when im done most likely with plenty of questions. thanks guys

Im in the same boat @ you for the most part, and i found that trying to learn everything @ once about your ECU and engine is impossible for me. Instead, i decided which "system" i want to learn about and go fourth learning about the ECU itself and how it controls the engine (what sensors give it data, what type of data [volts, ohms, hertz, etc], what the data means with respect to what its sensing [+volts @ MAF sensor mean more air being measured] and very importantly, how the data inputs from the sensors are deciphered by the ECU with respect to what package of engine parameters will be modified) i guess what im saying is i found it easy for the most part to concentrate on one "system" and learn it well, ask some ?'s on it, and then you should know it solidly. I started with the MAF system and the AFR's and how they relate to it.

hope i didnt just confuse you more.

www.romraider.com has a great forum for ECU tuning related issues and i have gotten good answers every time i posted a ?. much is turbo related stuff, but they seem cool about helping out whoever they can.
Engine management forum here is pretty good too.

Get an Innovate Motorsports LC-1 from a local shop if they'll offer good pricing (mine did) or tunertools.com with the discount code "enginuity" if you can't find a good deal locally.

You're going to want to mount your exhaust once before you tell the shop where to weld your bung as some of the best looking locations turn out to be blocked by the tranny. Wherever you do mount it, make sure that you have room for the body of the sensor plus the stiff part of the cable without running into anything.

Yeah, i was going to mock fit it first so i knew where i had clearance, but ill be doing all the welding and hope to knock it out in one day. Thanks for the LC-1 info, ill check around.

Race, Engine Management: Advanced Tuning by Greg Banish is the perfect book for what you just talked about.

Excuse my newbness. What are you guys expecting to gain from all this tuning on intake and exhaust mods on our NA's? A few HP? Making the engine run better? No offense, just seems like a lot of work.

yes a few HP. And the knowledge of the ECU and how it controls the engine. Why would you want to pay $$$ for bolt on's and get only half the performance out of them compared to spending another $60 for a tactrix cable and getting the rest of the HP in addition to making the car run better, stronger, how you want it to, save a bit of gas and know more. a LOT more. No offense, just seems stupid and lazy to not tune after certain bolt on upgrades.

guess if you just want to spend the $ and have "mods" to have "mods" then thats cool too.

Excuse my newbness. What are you guys expecting to gain from all this tuning on intake and exhaust mods on our NA's? A few HP? Making the engine run better? No offense, just seems like a lot of work.
The engine not exploding.

are you guys not worried about messing up the ecu? and if you tune the car with only cai and exhaust that is a waist of money. im sorry but i would never mess with my ecu when i have no training on tuning. if you had cams to then i could see why you would tune. then you run into needing alot more money to have them installed...and at the end of the day you have 30 to 35 hp for a crap load of money. if i had a few 1,000 to throw at my car..i think i would rather just save for a swap. dont get me wrong i would love 30 more hp..but i would then want more and realize that i could get more if i had a turbo motor;)

i talked to the guys from pacific import auto here in wa the owner worked for subaru for 30 years..him and his team know alot. i talked to them about both tuning and cams and they all told me that it would be a waist of money...alot of money for little power that you get. they also said open source is risky;)

They said that open source is risky because they're greedy capitalists.

Self-tuning is only as risky as your ability to understand the material and follow the scientific method. If you're willing to take several months of constant studying of the base concepts and couple that will small, incremental changes and detailed record keeping, you can safely arrive at a much more drivable and potentially more powerful car.

In addition, you really need to tune for the intake on any MAF-based car. Not doing so is playing russian roulette with your engine and likely only isn't fatal to the engine due to the fact that the stock tune takes a trip to crazy rich town on the top end.

Furthermore, stay the hell out of the discussion until you learn something. For that matter, stay out until you learn English.

are you guys not worried about messing up the ecu? and if you tune the car with only cai and exhaust that is a waist of money. im sorry but i would never mess with my ecu when i have no training on tuning. if you had cams to then i could see why you would tune. then you run into needing alot more money to have them installed...and at the end of the day you have 30 to 35 hp for a crap load of money. if i had a few 1,000 to throw at my car..i think i would rather just save for a swap. dont get me wrong i would love 30 more hp..but i would then want more and realize that i could get more if i had a turbo motor;)

i talked to the guys from pacific import auto here in wa the owner worked for subaru for 30 years..him and his team know alot. i talked to them about both tuning and cams and they all told me that it would be a waist of money...alot of money for little power that you get. they also said open source is risky;)


dude stop it what the hell do you think we are talking about? we want to blow up are cars!!!!!!!! flames mother hos . havent you seen us on the news yo? we blow up are mutha f in cars for the f of it!!!!!!!! **** looks hot flames shooting up the windshield .

its not about the hp!!!!!!!! its about blowing up your car cause your engine likes to make boom boom in the combustion chamber!!!!!!

Fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i like how you attack me man. and my english for that matter. didnt know i was back in school, and i was being graded on these forums??lol i think i listen to these guys over you haha. i have never heard of anyone telling me i " have to get my car tuned or my cars not going to be reliable.." i have had my cai on for over 40,000 miles..no problems. ill ask the guys at pia..see what they say since they would know more about subaru engines than you do;) cuz thats all they work on. and to call them greedy is funny. there telling me not to do these things..if they were greedy then they would tell me " oh ya do well do it..and hey lets throw a turbo on there to":devil: i have a right to state my view. just as you, so get off your high houses. even if i could have a pro tune my car i would rather save my money on so big hp and not waist it on hopes and dream...

dude stop it what the hell do you think we are talking about? we want to blow up are cars!!!!!!!! flames mother hos . havent you seen us on the news yo? we blow up are mutha f in cars for the f of it!!!!!!!! **** looks hot flames shooting up the windshield .

its not about the hp!!!!!!!! its about blowing up your car cause your engine likes to make boom boom in the combustion chamber!!!!!!

Fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sorry man you lost me at "
mother hos" wish i could understand all that...

The reason they told you open source is risky is that they don't tune with it. Otherwise, their answer would have been "yeah, we can work on that with you!" They're in it for the money.

If no one has ever mentioned to you that there's good reasons to tune a car with mods for reliability reasons, you haven't been talking to very knowledgeable people. It is, however, entirely possibly that they're simply ignorant of modern developments. MAP-based Imprezas (02-04 and most of the older ones) didn't require tuning for an intake considering that they're MAP-based. With a MAF-based Impreza (05-07), changing the intake tract is A LOT more risky. Every change you make has the possibility of making the MAF sensor voltage to mass airflow relationship change drastically. If it changes in a way that just makes it go richer, you're probably just leaving HP on the table. However, if it makes the car run lean, you're risking your engine. Now, the stock tune does have quite a bit of headroom for the MAF scaling getting messed up. The stock tune runs the car down to about 9.7:1. Even if you lean that out 3 points, you're probably not going to blow up. However, if your car is already running towards the lean side of the spectrum and then you toss a part that runs leaner, well... you get the idea.

Well ill lookin to that man. I'm open to new things. I just never heard anything about the 05+ need tunning. Ill ask them and see what they say. I just don't wanna spent a lot of money =(

Dear watchunglava,

You have received a warning at NASIOC.

Reason:
-------
Being a Tool

Ok man, time to relax. This post wasn't needed, along with some other people's in the thread.


I think its funny how you like to call people tools sanji, over a computer. while trying to be all rightious. ill smack you if you call me another name . now im warning you!!!!!

sorry man you lost me at "
mother hos" wish i could understand all that...

wow dude seriously did you just walk off the boat ? its a joke dude!!!!!! haha wtf you accually think we are all about blowing a cars up? i think my post was hilarious.

Statement retracted due to asshattery.

before i get kicked off the site let me just say I'm Master Tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:sadbanana: thanks master


i reflashed with masters map because honestly i had really similar mods . the car feels awsome , it needs to be tweeked. but not like its bad or anything. no knock what so ever, there was 1 point were the ecu advanced the timing like 1 degree , so it looks like only better thngs to come. too bad masters not around im sure he'd be all about tweeking it.

after installing my intake i had lost engine braking. ive had this explained as being a loss of torque. i didnt have the time to learn everything about tuning before i flashed.i had to take a chance , it was either ruin my engine because of the intake or reflash with masters map. i did check with a tuner friend in alabama who said i should not have insane problems and also told me to flash the last map of the series because it would be the one that had most everything worked out. im logging everytime i drive and my friend is supposed to tweek it while im learning , because seriously im not touching anything until i know what everything does.

this map is awsome though and i have no maf voltage spikes from my intake at all even without the snorkus or airbox. anyone want to see my first log? the car now feels stock as far as engine breaking goes if not accually more extreme!!!!!! this engine is compressing some air !!!!!

like i said it definatly needs to be tweeked. i can just feel it when im driving. but over all it seems like a solid base map for my set up , and now that my engine is now running closer to how it should i need to learn so much . ill attach the first log i ran. i went up the road and back just to have some log data to study after flashing .

ohh i cant add attatchments if anyone wants to check out the logs message me ill send em to you

wow dude seriously did you just walk off the boat ? its a joke dude!!!!!! haha wtf you accually think we are all about blowing a cars up? i think my post was hilarious.

well sorry i dont know you, or your "super funny humor". next time ill be on top of it!:lol: ....riiight

This thread makes baby jesus cry.

But he'll be happy to see that Master's ROMs are being collected HERE (http://bamb.ohiogaming.net/thorne/Maps/).

However, we're having trouble finding the NA tunes we know he did. If anyone had an NA car tuned by Master (including the OP of this thread), could you please get me the ROM plus a description of your cars mods, ROM ID, what you tuned for, etc?

Thats pretty badass thats his girl has time in her grieving to think... "oh hey, i bet those subaru guys want this info off his PC to tune their cars with..."

This thread makes baby jesus cry.

But he'll be happy to see that Master's ROMs are being collected HERE (http://bamb.ohiogaming.net/thorne/Maps/).

However, we're having trouble finding the NA tunes we know he did. If anyone had an NA car tuned by Master (including the OP of this thread), could you please get me the ROM plus a description of your cars mods, ROM ID, what you tuned for, etc?

I have two '05 ROMS (a 89 and 91 octane) tuned for a CAI, UEL headers, high flow cat, catback, etc that master provided me. PM your email if you want them via email.

watchunglava - you are on super thin ice.


that is all.....

are you guys kidding around with me ?so its cool for moderators to just be like insulting people and stuff? cause this guy callin me a tool is just uncalled for .

i mean if you want to kick me off your site then do it , i dont know what your problem is with me subie gal , but ever since ive had any contact with you , even in different forums you have not been very cordial with me.

you in fact constantly give people like really false information , its painful to watch in fact.i guess you need to make your boss money at the dealer or something. but in saying that you give alot of good advise as well. i just wish you would stop being so self ricious .

im sure youll get all like angry or something because ohh no im challenging you or something .But to the contrary i am just engaging in a discourse about your campain against my character.

i see how it is though ,your buddies can stoop to name calling to insult me but when i stand up for myself i am now on thin ice? and recieved 8 points?

listen everyone doesnt live in oregon ok, so most people arent like so toucy feely. i can tell that you are a little toucy feely so whats up ? seriously this is major b.s. so either kick me off or stop bustin my balls. i didnt do anything wrong .

watch, shut up and do your teenage drama queen bull**** in OT where it belongs. It has no place in this thread.

^ goes and microwaves a bag of popcorn for the finale.:rolleyes:

ohhhh

this gonna be good

subiegall where are youuu

*grabs some popcorn*

IBistopcaring

Dear watchunglava,

You have received a warning at NASIOC.

Reason:
-------
Being a Tool

Ok man, time to relax. This post wasn't needed, along with some other people's in the thread.


I think its funny how you like to call people tools sanji, over a computer. while trying to be all rightious. ill smack you if you call me another name . now im warning you!!!!!

"Being a Tool" is one of the warning/points items on NASIOC, and you deserved more than the warning I gave you. Trust me.

Back to the topic in the thread, does anyone know if the '07 2.5i maps are the same as the '06 2.5i ones?

IBTDrama

O wait, its long past that point :rolleyes:

No, there were some changes. As a safety percaution, everyone should always pull their own ROM from their own car and then modify that (even if you're just mimicking what someone else did to their ROM), rather than downloading someone else's ROM and flashing it in.

No, there were some changes. As a safety percaution, everyone should always pull their own ROM from their own car and then modify that (even if you're just mimicking what someone else did to their ROM), rather than downloading someone else's ROM and flashing it in.

Thanks williaty, I'll be logging soon then :D Oh, and I bought that book you recommended ;)

Wow at the drama and the info on tuning for N/A. Might have to steal my gf's car for a weekend and let my tuner take a look lol. Crap, I hope she doesn't see this.

Actually, if you wait a little bit, one of my friends here in town who worked closely with Sean is setting up a website that will contain every tune Sean ever did. His girlfriend has given the laptop to someone with the knowledge to hunt down and extract the ROMs and correlate them to the car they belong to (for a mod list). All that will end up on the site.Whatever happened with this?

Actually, yeah. I've just been starting to really examine the stock map in the last few weeks, and would LOVE the map which used to be available at the beginning of this thread.


Anybody have a copy of it? I'd like to see how things were changed.




On a side note: Why does the stock map appear to be WOT, depending on the conditions, with as little as 35% on the TPS?

The original Link to get the maps is coming up unavailable to me. Is there a different link I can get them from?

Have it? Yo I'm running it! And have logs

I have an 07 2.5i and need the map also. I can't make the link from OP work. "File deleted?" :(

Holy crap!
I have the exhaust same mods as the OP.. besides the magnaflow, I have the Espelir JGT500..
Would love to take a look at this.
I've NEVER, touched on tuning AT ALL. Wheres a good place to start?

Nobody has a copy of this map?

watchunglava, you said you're running it. Did you get tuned, or did you use that map?

i have the Master2192 maps for an 07 2.5i manual trans only. Dont know which ECU differences there are between the MT and AT but there are some that are significant, I know that. If you would like them, please PM me. dont forget to include your email as i cant attach files on the nasioc message service. It will be a WinRAR zipped file. please be patient as I will be out of town this weekend for a mountain bike race and dont frequent this board daily, but i try to. tuesday-wed at the latest. also, keep in mind, these are not good to go maps for anyone with an intake and headers/exhaust, so use them at your own risk and with extreme caution. 99% of you will require some additional tweaks to make it best for your vehicle. EVEN if you have the same exact mods as the tuner vehicle. I havnt looked at these maps in depth, but im almost positive that they are tuned for a high octane fuel, at least 91, probably 93-94. good luck

im rockin the master map its sweet. read the entire thread

Watchunglava - not useful if you don't share. ;)
Are you running 89, 91, or 93 octane? Can you send me your logs?

RaceFace, thanks! That's a damn plethora of maps. I'll post up if i find something interesting.

the map was made for 87 . you a good tuner sniper ? cause i suck and would love to have this map tweeked. nasioc wont let me post attatchments i think cause i get warned so much or something. i do live like an hour away. mabe two depending on where in ma . you ever go to the boston meets?

87, eh? sweet.

Looking at the maps, this was done mainly for throttle response and a bit more pep at high loads and low/mid RPM (IE, it was made for when you stomp on it from a roll). Right?

Also, have you run the maps with the flattened throttle? I'm curious as to it's fidelity at wide throttle angles (does it feel like it runs out of go at ~60% throttle?).



No, i'm not a good tuner. I'm a pretty good engineer, though i say it myself, but this is my first foray into engine management.




And please excuse the profile, i live in minnesota for the winter.



EDIT: What do you want changed? I can certainly try to learn how, but i don't think i'll be touching any of the fueling/timing for now.

Guys, for the love of god, you need to realize that you can't just share custom tunes like you're all excited about. For one thing, the ROMs are different from car to car. If you've got an early 06 and they've got a mid 07, there's no guarantee that your car will even start if you flash their map. Beyond that, you have no way of knowing what internal changes Subaru may have made to the engine. For all you know, that map that runs fine on his car will cause yours to die. Finally, there are significant car-to-car variations. A map that is perfectly safe on Car A may cause Car B to grenade. There's only two ways to safely flash your engine: 1) get it custom tuned by an experienced tuner 2) pull your own ROM, spend a couple of months learning tuning theory, and then carefully tune if yourself.
Basically, if you want to get some advice on a specific tuning issue post and say "I identified this issue. Here are some logs demonstrating it. How have you all solved this issue?" At that point, take the theory the other person used to solve the problem and apply it to your car. DON'T USE THEIR EXACT NUMBERS!


If you all keep running around stupid, one of you WILL eventually blow an engine and it'll be your own dumbass fault.

The only way you can potentially share ROMs is if the tune is a "staged" map tuned to account for the worst possible condition your car could be in. I promise you, on 99% of the cars you flash that generic map into, it'll run worse than stock. NA's aren't like turbos guys.

On a side note: Why does the stock map appear to be WOT, depending on the conditions, with as little as 35% on the TPS?
I'm assuming you mean pedal sensor, not throttle sensor for this answer...

Without looking at your specific ROM, I can only make a pretty good guess at what's going on. First of all, read my article on DBW tuning. You'll see that they "pump up" the throttle response to make the car feel more sporty. Additionally, there's multiple DBW input and output tables in the ROM. This is how the fancy-pants cars do SI-Drive. All the "Sport Sharp" mode does is open the throttle too damned fast to be useful to make you feel like a hero. Similarly, the Economy mode leaves you unable to floor it. All of the 32bit ROMs that I've looked at have had multiple maps. However, without a button to switch between them, the cheap cars just only use one. If you saw one that went to 100% throttle opening at 35% pedal angle, my guess is that you looked at the unused "Sport Sharp" table.

Guys, for the love of god, you need to realize that you can't just share custom tunes like you're all excited about. For one thing, the ROMs are different from car to car. If you've got an early 06 and they've got a mid 07, there's no guarantee that your car will even start if you flash their map. Beyond that, you have no way of knowing what internal changes Subaru may have made to the engine. For all you know, that map that runs fine on his car will cause yours to die. Finally, there are significant car-to-car variations. A map that is perfectly safe on Car A may cause Car B to grenade. There's only two ways to safely flash your engine: 1) get it custom tuned by an experienced tuner 2) pull your own ROM, spend a couple of months learning tuning theory, and then carefully tune if yourself.
Basically, if you want to get some advice on a specific tuning issue post and say "I identified this issue. Here are some logs demonstrating it. How have you all solved this issue?" At that point, take the theory the other person used to solve the problem and apply it to your car. DON'T USE THEIR EXACT NUMBERS!


If you all keep running around stupid, one of you WILL eventually blow an engine and it'll be your own dumbass fault.

The only way you can potentially share ROMs is if the tune is a "staged" map tuned to account for the worst possible condition your car could be in. I promise you, on 99% of the cars you flash that generic map into, it'll run worse than stock. NA's aren't like turbos guys.


wility knows his shoot. i have an 07 but bought it in 06 . this guys map worked great for me . and after logging i have no knock or anything. and it appears that i can push it even further at points because the computer is still advancing the timing at points. in saying that my has never felt better. im allmost finished changing every single bushing on the suspension and gear shifter . feels groovy!!!!!

anway wility dude why dont you write me a nice map . maybe we can work something out . id love to have a map for my stock rom. your the man at this dude dont you see that no one else knows wtf your talking about!!! haha and when you finnally get a little clue ou blow it out of the water !!!!!! dude write me a map!!!!!!!

Watchung, you went the lucky way. The car that map came from obviously was more knock prone than yours, so you got off safely (though without making as much power as you could). However, imagine if it had gone the other way. The tuner made the map for your car and then you gave it to the other guy. The tune that's totally safe on your knock-resistant engine would have caused his knock-prone engine to grenade. That's the problem, you just never know what you're going to get.

I'm not willing to tune other people's cars because of the legal liability. However, I'm willing to discuss any aspect of tuning theory with anyone who starts a thread.

Guys, for the love of god, you need to realize that you can't just share custom tunes like you're all excited about. For one thing, the ROMs are different from car to car. If you've got an early 06 and they've got a mid 07, there's no guarantee that your car will even start if you flash their map. Beyond that, you have no way of knowing what internal changes Subaru may have made to the engine. For all you know, that map that runs fine on his car will cause yours to die. Finally, there are significant car-to-car variations. A map that is perfectly safe on Car A may cause Car B to grenade. There's only two ways to safely flash your engine: 1) get it custom tuned by an experienced tuner 2) pull your own ROM, spend a couple of months learning tuning theory, and then carefully tune if yourself.
Basically, if you want to get some advice on a specific tuning issue post and say "I identified this issue. Here are some logs demonstrating it. How have you all solved this issue?" At that point, take the theory the other person used to solve the problem and apply it to your car. DON'T USE THEIR EXACT NUMBERS!


If you all keep running around stupid, one of you WILL eventually blow an engine and it'll be your own dumbass fault.

The only way you can potentially share ROMs is if the tune is a "staged" map tuned to account for the worst possible condition your car could be in. I promise you, on 99% of the cars you flash that generic map into, it'll run worse than stock. NA's aren't like turbos guys.

Williaty said it better but this is what i was getting at when i said that these maps are not good-to-go and to use at your own risk, etc etc. Im all about sharing them and studying them to see what changes were made and understanding why, but if you just flash it to your ECU and go, you are rolling the dice. not a good idea. and watchunglava, these have got to be maps for 91-93 octane at least. there is some significant timing added in a couple places. the stock rom is already "over timed" for 87 to be honest.

Williaty:

Believe me, i'm not planning on using these maps. I just wanted to look at them, to see what he did and how. I'm excited because i was sent several revisions of the maps, so i get to see the changes in sequence. The fact that it's the same basic car is just a plus, because it makes the theory more directly applicable.

Could i have a link to your article? And, for that matter, anything else you might have handy that i should look at?

Regarding the throttle - i was confusing myself with the target throttle plate map. The "requested torque" map is much more linear with pedal angle. my bad. Should both of these maps be retuned with power adders, so the "requested torque" and "target throttle plate position by requested torque" maps match up with actual available output?




RaceFace: when i was looking at the maps last night, i noted the most of the timing i noticed was at mid/high load and low/mid RPM, where the rest of the map was relatively unchanged. Wouldn't the advance in these ranges be limited primarily by the position of the piston, rather than the octane of the fuel?

That is to say, because the relative speed of the flame front is so high compared to the speed of the piston, only minimal changes in timing will be available with a given increase in knock resistance, and large changes would be available with extra fuel or mis-timing to begin with (the second being unlikely). As we discussed, it looks like his primary goal was more to richen the car up earlier to promote a more eager engine, trading off fuel economy. This could be done without a change in octane, IMO. It's also a more realistic goal, since the compression isn't available to really take advantage of high octane fuel, and the stock ecu is already timed to the max, but for fuel economy.

i have run this car on 87 but ussually run it on 91 , and it does feel better when i do. there were two threads dealing with masters map. the first accually had input from master and he claimed he made these maps for 87 octane. that thread is like unfindable .it was called like 2.5i 87 octane map or something.

(postion of piston) i swear to god i ran this very impreza with the spark plug wires 3 and 4 switched for like 6 months without even knowing it! no code no nothing . except the smallest bit of bucking at low low revs like revs that are never seen.

i definatly lucked out!!!!! this map feels awesome on my ride though, and on my ride at least can be tuned out even further in spots.

fuel economy has suffered greatly with this map but that could have been from the plug wire too! we will see.

found it http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403206&highlight=87+octane+map

(postion of piston) i swear to god i ran this very impreza with the spark plug wires 3 and 4 switched for like 6 months without even knowing it! no code no nothing . except the smallest bit of bucking at low low revs like revs that are never seen.


Certainly possible if these cars are wasted spark ignitions. If you flip the correct pair of wires, nothing will happen, since both plugs are sparked simultaneously. In fact, any bucking or problems with that situation were probably in your head. ;)


No, fuel consumption is definitely the result of the map. You are burning tremendously more fuel almost all the time outside of closed loop. I'll check the CL/OL transition and see how much change there was.

anyway so in the file there are a bunch of revisions. 5 and the 5th has 2 one just says 5 one just says 5 flat throttle. whats the difference? i think i flashed the one that says 5

it could have been either or . i would have to pull it to check. but whats the difference?

The one that says flat throttle changes how the throttle plate reacts to your pedal position. He basically made it so that at all times the pedal exactly corresponds to the throttle position in your DBW throttle.

IMHO, it's not a very good idea, since maybe 90% of your power is made in the first 60% of the throttle's throw. That crams most of your sensitivity into the first half of your pedal throw. *shrug*

He basically took a 3D map and forced it into a linear 2D map. I'd run the regular one.


EDIT: in the regular map, you're pedal tells the computer how much torque you want, and the computer figures out the best way give it to you.

For another attempt, look at my article on DBW programming in this forum. It's a good read.

good food for thought , but to answer my origional question is the flat throttle his take on modifying the dbw? cause i dont think i flashed that revision. but if it what i think then i should flash that one and tweek it no to my style no?

Certainly possible if these cars are wasted spark ignitions. If you flip the correct pair of wires, nothing will happen, since both plugs are sparked simultaneously. In fact, any bucking or problems with that situation were probably in your head. ;)


No, fuel consumption is definitely the result of the map. You are burning tremendously more fuel almost all the time outside of closed loop. I'll check the CL/OL transition and see how much change there was.

what would happen if it wasnt a wasted spark igniton? would it just stall out?

It probably would never start. Not with two misfire CELs and 50% loss of cylinders.

"wasted spark" means two plugs tie to one coil - therefore. each cylinder's plug fires once per revolution. However, each cylinder is only fueled every other revolution, so half the sparks are "wasted" on a cylinder in its exhaust stroke.



Yes, the flat throttle is his take on the DBW. I don't think it's a very good take. I wouldn't flash it. williaty has a good plan in his other thread.

The one that says flat throttle changes how the throttle plate reacts to your pedal position. He basically made it so that at all times the pedal exactly corresponds to the throttle position in your DBW throttle.

EDIT: in the regular map, you're pedal tells the computer how much torque you want, and the computer figures out the best way give it to you.

If what you say is correct, does the flat throttle program respond to your foot input quicker? (not waiting for the computer to figure the the plate position based on the torque you request)

If this is true, I will love to try it. Since I have the master's maps (thanks RaceX!) I want to see what change made a ECU "flat throttle?" Does anyone know?

Jerry

Changing the mapping of the DBW system will have absolutely no effect on the speed of the reaction between moving the throttle pedal and the throttle plate hitting the target position. No matter how you map it, the DBW system runs exactly the same program and takes exactly the same amount of time.

Mapping the pedal and plate together 1:1 (the "flat throttle") you're talking about is a bad idea. That's how the 05 RS comes stock. If you read my article on DBW tuning, you'll see the problems with it.

The "Flat throttle" 1:1 map is still better than the stock 06-07 maps in the way that is uses more of the pedal stroke... but its far from being good. i started with the 1:1 map and massaged it to my liking. its very sensitive early in the accel pedal stroke, it felt like even more so than the stock 06-07 maps. but it uses almost the entire pedal stroke, instead of saving the last 30% ore so for nothing. williaty write up on the DBW tuning is great and explains the ECU's logic for determining what the actual throttle plate position will be so you can modify the input table(s) so it will do what you want.

Weird, my 05 (which had a 1:1 map) used less of the pedal travel than our 06 (which had a "progressive" map). Strange that you felt that the 05 was better than the 06 since both she and I are definitely convinced the 06 map was better than the 05 map.

if you look at the pedal angle % vs engine load % graphs that you posted in your DBW thread you can see that the 05 map and the 06(07) map get very near 100% engine load about the same pedal position, but the 06(07) map had virtually zero modulation above 60% pedal position... anything past 60% pedal position will go from 60% engine load to very near 100% engine load in about the next 10% of pedal travel and then after that its all done... like a virgin. but on the 05 map, you have that last 40% of engine load spread over almost 70% of the throttle pedal range... and it doesnt hit the ceiling so hard like the 06(07) maps... but in either case, both are poor, for some of the same reasons and some different reasons.

I'm sorry for his passing I know he's tearing up rally courses in heavem...does anyone know if his girl is looking to get rid of any of the parts...I'd love to have the engine the ndress it up with his signa on the motor that would be tight.

He died as a result of crashing his car.. i dont know the details of the collision but i bet the car is no longer around. if the vehicle was salvageable, the insurance company probably parted it out and sold it. If it wasnt salvageable, the insurance company probably did the same thing since they are all about $.

Anyone in the MN area able to tune my 06 2.5i?
PM me

I have a hard time scaling the MAF according to the following procedure. I am new to this, trying to get some help and see what I did wrong... Anyway,

I left the Max air temp at 35, Williaty was questioning this, is that F or C?
With cable connected, I can log to a file. But after I clicked the record button (after getting into in the MAF tab), no data is showing up on the large graph area to the right, that doesn't seem normal to me.
Any help from those who have done it is appreciated.
Jerry

Actually, I can't even find the post I'm talking about, so:

1) Open RomRaider
2) Open a saved copy of the ROM currently loaded into the ECU
3) Launch the RomRaiderLogger
4) Select the MAF tab
5) Set the values along the left side to reasonable values
6) Click Record Data
7) Drive around for about an hour moving your right foot as slowly as possible
8) Click Record Data to stop collecting data
9) Disconnect the laptop from the car but DON'T close the logger or the MAF tool tab
10) Select an order and click Interpolate.
11) Try each order for the polyfit (clicking Interpolate after each change of order) to figure out which one best fits the data you have
12) Set the MAF Scaling update range (left side) to the voltage range you want to update
13) Click Update MAF (and tell it you're really sure)
14) Close the logger
15) Save the now-modified ROM under a new name
16) Flash this new ROM into the ECU
17) Repeat steps 1-16 until you're satisfied with your scaling

I have a hard time scaling the MAF according to the following procedure. I am new to this, trying to get some help and see what I did wrong... Anyway,

I left the Max air temp at 35, Williaty was questioning this, is that F or C?
With cable connected, I can log to a file. But after I clicked the record button (after getting into in the MAF tab), no data is showing up on the large graph area to the right, that doesn't seem normal to me.
Any help from those who have done it is appreciated.
Jerry

I think the max intake air temp being F or C depends on what def's you are using (standard or metric) Standard = F and metric = C... i just raised mine to 120 so it would not affect my data either way. That was the only thing i had to change to get data to plot. Also, the min coolant temp will keep it from logging/plotting data until the engine is warmed up.. so keep that in mind. The following tips will not be necessary if you follow the list of steps that Williaty posted exactly, but i had problems with the things i am about to mention, so i bring them up so you understand what the problems are and hopefully no one else has the same problems. When you get a good useful collection of data plotted on your graph, before you update the MAF table, make sure you specify the range of the plotted data that you want it to use.. if you just leave the data range alone, it will use bad data as well as the good data that you gathered on the plot... and that will just mess up your MAF scaling everywhere else. One more thing.. you have to open the ECU editor and then open the logger through the editor or it will not be able to find the MAF table when you want to update it. probably a good idea to open the map you want to update before logging, too. Hope that helps.

You want to set the max intake temp just above your cruising IAT on that specific day. Basically, you need to use the max IAT variable to let cruising data through but gate out the data while you heatsoak at a stoplight.

Thanks guys!!!

After changing the Max temp I was able to plot np. Turned out that my new intake made the MAF off (underestimated) by as much as 18% at low MAFv's, and 6% at high MAFv's. After several updates, the car felt smoother with more torque. I am so happy. If I am correct, 6% more fuel is like another 10hp at least. I have Master's files, however, none of them seem to have MAF rescaled.

PS: I just found out that if I don't close the logger program, and cable connected, I can continue to get data (from multiple trips) even if I turn off the car in between.

Now, how to monitor and improve timing???

Nope, you didn't gain any airflow or torque or power. You don't understand the data you're looking at.

The MAF scaling tab collects the amount of fueling error at each MAFv. So when you were off by 18% at lof MAFvs, the ECU had polled the MAFv, looked up how much air that was supposed to be, calculated how much fuel that air required, injects the fuel, then uses the O2 sensor to determine the amount of error, and decided that it had been 18% rich or lean. On the next cycle, the ECU uses that 18% measured error to compensate the calculation of fuel step. So the total airflow doesn't change. After sampling tens of thousands of cycles of this, the MAF tool allows you to then find the most frequent error at each MAFv and apply that typical correction to the MAF Scaling map.

All you're doing with the MAF scaling is making sure that the ECU looks up the correct amount of air and therefore gets the fueling right on the first try.

Jerry, got your pm and replied, but i cant stress enough that you do not want to make any changes to fueling or timing until your MAF scaling is just about perfect.

Thanks guys!
I rescaled the MAF 6 times by now. I was able to get the fit curve to 2-3% from 0 throughout the range, except for may be the MAFv's of 1.1-1.2 where the data is a little unsettled.
Williaty, thanks for the information. It is sad to know that I got no more power. The car felt smoother, sounds less rough, and drove stronger--maybe a placebo effect. RaceFaceXC, thanks for the reply. If the car gets another 5-10hp it will be perfect for the daily driving I do.

Jerry

Power comes from timing. I'm loving the cold weather because of all the timing I can add to the tune :devil:

Power comes from timing. I'm loving the cold weather because of all the timing I can add to the tune :devil:

+1, even here in FL its in the 50's when im on the road and im making great power. much better than IAT's being 110+.

i wish i had a clue about any of this open source tuning

pros/cons anyone?

+1, even here in FL its in the 50's when im on the road and im making great power. much better than IAT's being 110+.

Yeah, I've been able to add 8* of timing over the last two days. I'm doing it in little bits each time I go out, looking for the point at which the car is going to say enough. The three things I've noticed so far:

1) The place where I do 3rd gear WOT pulls used to only fit 2 pulls plus a little extra run off. Now, I can do 3 pulls in that distance if I cut it tight on the safety margin.

2) A place where I used to Vmax it for the fun of it now sees me 20mph faster 200yds sooner before I chicken out and get off the gas.

3) It's much harder to shift smoothly or launch gently due to how much more aggressively the car builds torque. I may "feather" the timing into the low-load cells to make the onset more smooth.

Yeah, I've been able to add 8* of timing over the last two days. I'm doing it in little bits each time I go out, looking for the point at which the car is going to say enough. The three things I've noticed so far:

1) The place where I do 3rd gear WOT pulls used to only fit 2 pulls plus a little extra run off. Now, I can do 3 pulls in that distance if I cut it tight on the safety margin.

2) A place where I used to Vmax it for the fun of it now sees me 20mph faster 200yds sooner before I chicken out and get off the gas.

3) It's much harder to shift smoothly or launch gently due to how much more aggressively the car builds torque. I may "feather" the timing into the low-load cells to make the onset more smooth.

wow, thats quite the change. i would have never thought a temp drop would cause changes that drastic. What kind of IAT difference are you experiencing to get those changes?

When I pulled out into traffic this morning i would have been usually getting on it hard and having the car behind me coming up in my rear view closer than id like but i found myself getting up and going violently.. it gave me a little rush that i hadn't gotten in a while. love it. also noticed when i pull onto the main road after work that there is a cop @ the next cross street and if im WOT through 2nd gear im still under the speed limit b4 i get to the cop that is always there in the same place... was almost 5 mph over the limit today. Where are you adding timing (rpm range)? And are you having to adj fueling along with the added timing or are you getting pure advance without AFR adjustment? I only have added 3* at some load/rpm cells but have not started to get any complaints from my ECU in terms of knock. looks like i need to try another * or two.

1) Fueling should never change because of timing. Fueling needs sorted out before timing.

2) I've added the timing literally to every cell in the entire map. On this last round, there were 2 spots where I added the timing to the whole map, then took the increase back out in those spots (easiest way of doing it). So the whole map is up 8* and 95% of the map is up 9* and rising.

3) Yeah, the car definitely feels more frantic. Everything happens sooner than I expect. I keep bouncing off the damned fuel cut.

4) Right now, I'm seeing about an 80F change from the worst steady-state IATs I saw during the summer. I expect to get another 30-40F colder than this over the winter.

i think my target AFR's are a little leaner than they should be in some areas, but im not knocking anywhere and i have added a bit of fuel to a few cells when adding timing. i need to spend a lot more time with my new WB O2 and get it gravy everywhere i guess. Do you just tune fuel for max torque @ any given ingition timing? Seems like you would need a dyno to do that well. i wish i was in Michigan again, with 30* weather.

Well, 13.5 AFR is MBT. I try to run at 12.5 AFR just to allow a little room for error. Without a dyno, that's the best you can do. Then I add all the timing the car will tolerate.

i see... i guess i just didnt think it was that straight forward. Do you run MBT at all cells near WOT? how do you judge which loads need that much fuel and when to taper off... I just adjusted the base map here and there little at a time, seeing what the changes made. very slow an tedious but so far its going ok. using the factory trend for enriching as a guide, and just using my own target values to follow a similar "delta" from stoich based on load, etc. staying reasonable, because factory AFR's are stupid rich near the top, as you are aware.

No, I don't run MBT at all. MBT is 13.5. I stay richer of that just in case I spike lean for some reason. IIRC, my fueling map is stoich from idle to 4kRPM and then 12.5 from 4kRPM to redline for all loads under 0.9g/rev. From 0.9g/rev to max, it's stoich from idle to 2kRPM and then 12.5 from 2kRPM to redline. On each of the "borders" between stoich and 12.5, there's 1 cell of 13.6 in between to provide a taper.

No, I don't run MBT at all. MBT is 13.5. I stay richer of that just in case I spike lean for some reason. IIRC, my fueling map is stoich from idle to 4kRPM and then 12.5 from 4kRPM to redline for all loads under 0.9g/rev. From 0.9g/rev to max, it's stoich from idle to 2kRPM and then 12.5 from 2kRPM to redline. On each of the "borders" between stoich and 12.5, there's 1 cell of 13.6 in between to provide a taper.

My bad, i meant 12.5 i just wrote MBT. Its so cool to see how simple your map is, mine is all over the place relative to yours. I just got my WB a week ago and after getting the win vista kinks out and getting it working right with RR im just starting to use it. So far im just corrolating my maps AFR's to what im actually getting on my WB and adjusting my maps accordingly to get the actual afr's (WB afr's) that i want. so do you get a consistant AFR on your fuel map for your desired AFR (12.5, etc)? its late and i cant even clearly write what im thinking, so im out. thanks for all your advice, williaty.

The best way to go to get things sorted out in the beginning is to make it even more simple than what I have. Make everything to the left of some load point (I used 0.9 g/rev) stoich and everything to the right 12.5. Then you use the MAF tool a couple of times to get the CL MAF scaling close and then prefect it with the manual scaling method I posted. Once you're down to stable <2% AF Learning D, and 0 is better but stable is the most important, move on to OL. Go do a dozen 2k-redline WOT pulls. Bring the data home and do the method we talked about to calculate the corrections. Rescale the MAF and then do another dozen pulls. Crunch the numbers, rescale the MAF, do more pulls. Repeat until you're happy with the OL MAF scaling. Then set your Primary OL Fueling table to what ever values you really want it to be long-term. BTW, make sure that you don't apply your OL calculations to MAFvs that get seen in CL. For whatever reason, CL and OL scaling isn't identical in the MAFvs where they overlap. It's better to have a accurate and stable CL scaling so AFL D doesn't change and then finnese the actual AFRs in OL a little if you have to.

There are like 6 timing tables. Which one do you adjust or all of them. These tables different value...?

For each table with the same name, I set the tables to the same thing (A=B=C). Which table I adjust depends on what I'm trying to do.

Today, I updated my ECU Master's timing tables revision 5 together with my latest MAF table. Drove around. Didn't feel any improvement in power. Amazing. IAM value dropped from 1 to 0.5.

IAM starts at 0.5 after an ECU reset. You need to get the car to pump the IAM back up to whatever it wants to be at. I've detailed how somewhere on this forum.

you can adjust the IAM initial setting with RR, and if you are using the Master 2.5i maps in any form, he did have the IAM set to 1.000 on many of them. so if your starting @ 1.000 and dropping to .500 then you should switch back to a known good map and tweak the new map as required to avoid knock. starting @ .500 IAM is a good idea because it lessens the chance of severe knock due to overly advanced timing... if you get your IAM up to 1.000 and then flash a new map with slightly higher timing, using initial IAM of .500 will start you off with less timing than you dialed in for the new map, but allow it to rise to the full advance that was dialed in IF there are no problems with it in terms of knock. At least thats how i understand it.

you can adjust the IAM initial setting with RR

but you shouldn't

but you shouldn't

I agree.. for exactly the reason i explained in my previous post. just one more reason why flashing an unknown map to your car is a very bad idea. If the IAM was .500 then only half of the advance would have been applied to start, which could be the difference between seeing a problem and adjusting timing to fix it or seeing a problem and paying for engine repairs.

Yeah, I just wanted to make that god-awful clear on a post all to itself. With how little people are willing to work to understand this, I'm almost looking forwards to the first guy who blows up his engine so that maybe people will realize how important it is to be careful and understand what's going on.

Thanks guys.
Even with the stock timing, my IAM normally would climb up to 0.650-0.750 and stop there. I saw 1.000 a few time, but it retreated to 0.700 after a while of normal driving anyhow. Does this mean we should stay away from even the stock map since the IAM is less than 1.000? Does that also mean that there is just not enough room left for improvement unless one uses 93 octane or enriches the AFR tables.

Master's revision 5 has very mild timing advancement (from stock), together with fuel enrichment. In fact, in tables D and E, he had most cells timing retarded (I was hoping that these tables are not normally used, compared to Tables A-C). After trying (any monitoring the Knock), I have to say I didn't feel noticeable power gain. The gain, if any, was much less than the intake mod I did to this car.

I hope one of you can share the secret that can keep the IAM high and have advanced timing at the same time.

I hope one of you can share the secret that can keep the IAM high and have advanced timing at the same time.Simple - increase fuel octane.

Does that also mean that there is just not enough room left for improvement unless one uses 93 octane or enriches the AFR tables.
In a lot of tuners' opinions, this is exactly the case. The stock tune is too aggressive. It's pretty obviously targeted at returning the maximum MPG while keeping the engine alive just long enough to get it out of warranty. I've yet to see any tune for a 05+ RS that didn't reduce timing compared to stock if they stayed with 87oct gas.

I have to say I didn't feel noticeable power gain. The gain, if any, was much less than the intake mod I did to this car.
Everyone who's tuned an NA has been VERY up front that there are NO power gains to be made by tuning on a stock NA. It's only with substantial mods to the engine that you can start making more power.

I hope one of you can share the secret that can keep the IAM high and have advanced timing at the same time.
First of all, what you said doesn't make sense. You said "Keep the advance high while advancing". IAM is Ignition ADVANCE Multiplier.

But, to answer what you thought you were asking, you can't. The engine, on a given octane, will only allow so much timing. To get the IAM high and stable, you have to reduce the base timing in the rough correction evaluation range.

I am grateful to your answers but disappointed of your answers.

I am grateful to your answers but disappointed of your answers.
Hey, all everything I wrote was available on at least 2 different forums. Diligent research before you started tuning would have turned up the fact that you weren't going to gain any power plus the answers to all the questions you've asked both in the forum and in PMs.

It's pretty obviously targeted at returning the maximum MPG while keeping the engine alive just long enough to get it out of warranty.

How many properly maintained stock EJ253's have failed before hitting 100k? IMHO the engine has established itself as highly reliable and capable of 200K+. Subaru is pushing timing the same way other manufacturers are. After all why not: more timing = more power, more economy, and less emissions. A win-win provided it is done safely. When I was running stock with 87oct I averaged IAM of .7, that leaves room for IAM correction (rough) and fine learning correction. The result is more than enough timing correction to compensate for a horrible tank of gas...

...or maybe the gas is just better in MN. :devil:

It's not the lack of overhead to accommodate a tank of worse-than-average gas that worries me, it's the continuous knocking that many of these engines suffer. I think it will be interesting to see how many 05-07's are still on their first engines 5 and 10 years, 150k and 300k miles, etc from purchase.