Well, actually if you read your warrenty on your subaru, technically you void it if you race. The issue is proving it of course..... Just dont bring your car to the dealership on feathered tires I guess.

What happened to the article about the Impreza vs. M5 over at carzone? it's gone...

Gambit,

the one where the STi beat the M5 by four car lengths? I was looking for it and then I stumbled upon the Japan vs Germany thing. What treasures you can find when you look for something else!!! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Very funny! BMW couldn't face that they don't have the fastest saloon in the world.

I would put my RS up against a damn M5 on a tight track that requires skill. Most people who own the don't know how to drive them. I saw an old woman driving one yesterday. And yes it was an "M"5. In fact BMWs Sporty image is tarnished by a bunch of yuppies driving automatic 328s. If it were not for this I might like them.

Bowel
Movement
Wagon

My first time out on a SCCA course netted a trophy...from a BMW EVENT!!!Choke on it Sheitzkopf!!!

....any questions? Gary

Don't slam the M5 - just slam BMW marketing fools!

The M5 is still the ultimate luxury saloon. Just maybe not quite as ultimate as the marketing types want. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

Oh yes, I've know two BMW Nazis who have to see this.

Funny thing is I've always hated the people who drive Bimmers because they consider everyone else to be inferior in every aspect, and now I have a reason to hate the company as well.

There was a little discussion about this at a BMW M5 site back in July (http://www.bmwm5.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000638.html). They kept talking about how cheap Subarus are compared to their luxurious plush interiors and all.

Totally off the subject that according to BMW's advertising claims, its M5 is "the fastest saloon car on the planet." It's funny how people get off topic.

Well well well....I'll let you come up with your own conclusions.
http://www.carzone.co.za/html/gervzjap2.html

I have nothing to say coz I'm unbiased. Riiiight. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by Snoopy (edited October 02, 2000).]

That is hilarious. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Yuppies drive Beemers cause they can afford them and want to look like they have $$$ of course. I would buy one too after driving one, but right now the IS300 is my fav. for lux cars.

Dont get me wrong, I'd still the the new WRX over anything in any price range exept a 2001 911 Turbo http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/tongue.gif

BTW, what BMW head hancho idiot decided to race the M5 vs. an STi? I mean, people compair the STi to ferraris, lambos, and all the other "fast exotic cars" in the world... and it usually wins too!

Isn't the Mitsu EVO faster than the STi WRX?

This is my favorite part:

"This led to a media
onslaught against BMW by
various motoring journals,
coming to a head when in its
current issue, Cars in Action
magazine proved that claim
was not altogether true in a
test between a standard
BMW M5 and a Subaru
Impreza STi in Johannesburg.
The Subaru, also a saloon
car, trounced the BMW over
the quarter mile sprint and in
a test from 0-160km/h to 0."

Hee.
-S2-

[This message has been edited by Siper2 (edited October 02, 2000).]

Made my day.
God bless impreza... http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Gambit, I've heard it depends on the model of EVO vs the model of WRX. I THINK the Impreza is the fastest with the 22b edging out all of the EVOs Mitsu has. I can't remember for sure, someone want to correct me?

I'm shocked that BMW actually would threaten someone by witholding/denying their warranty if they raced. That can't be legal and secondly, it sounds like they're running scared.

Thank god it was the "lowly" Impreza that shut those damn Germans UP.

Yo, BMW!! Are you listening?? I've owned three of your products in the past and I'll I can say is...your cars have one of the poorest performance/$ values of any car I've owned. Poo-poo on you!!! I'm sticking with Subaru's!!!!!

I found this M3 owner's opinion to be extremely humor http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

"Who wants to sit in a bucket with someone trying to get in using a jack hammer.
I meet one of these things every other day on my way to work, My M3 evo thrashed the pants off it,lets see how he gets on with my M5 when its run in, like the guy said, they need to learn to drive. These rally homologation specials need sevicing every 4000 miles, transmission oil changing every week, they drink fuel like a 747 and they ride like a skateboard. The production versions NEVER perform to spec. and the owners all seem to have total belief in there ability to win an international rally in their lunch hour. Sad car, sad people.

BrianR"

We need to give him a good reality check about what's going on in the world, so he won't think his Ms is all mighty god.

I believe he got one too many spankings from our UK Scooby buds. Poor lad.

Jewbaru,

The <A HREF="http://www.ralliartuk.com/carsales/EvoVI/Extreme/extcarmage.htm">Mitsubishi Lancer EVO Extreme</a> is the fastest of them all:
340horsepower, 160mph, and 0-60 in 4.0 seconds...

Well I admit the M3 evo guy was a bit arrogant, but that aside, the M3 evo is a sweet car. I also agree that most BMW owners are arrogant, and would probably lose to a good Geo metro driver on an autocross course, due to lack of driving skill. But I have owned 3 BMW's and they are excellent cars. Maybe the M5 isn't the ULTIMATE, but its a pretty sweet car.

Chris

http://www.carzone.co.za/assets/images/2.jpg

Hmmm....that is one sweet looking BMW. But the Impreza looks just as good. But I'm not into plush leather interior.

I'm with Slim.
So BMW's marketing "gurus" messed up BIG time with that statement. However I think BMW makes a terrific car- especially they're
"M" cars.
Where is all this animosity coming from anyways. It's sad that the majority of BMW owners buy them for status and not for the perfomance that they deliver. And yes I have met plenty who were snooby, but I have also heard the same thing about Impreza owners on this very board. If you don't like some of the people driving the car that's one thing, but If I had the oportunity to get an M5 over an impreza, I would go for it in a Second. They are two different cars. I remeber a thread about a GS400 racing an RS. Same thing here IMO.
Like each one for what they are and don't fall into the marketing hype.

I'd like to think that we are smarter then that here.

Later

Dan

Snooper! How the heck did you get that pic?! THe directory access are all denied. Do did you manage to get the article?

Thats funny, then "Ultimite driving machine" getting reamed by a car origionaly designed for backcountry people who needed a cheap and realible 4wd.

Well as for most desirable sallon, I would much rather have a XJR, and its even faster than the M5 in 0-50. Just that 30HP deficency fom the factory and extra wieght make the M5 slightly faster above 50. Hmm exaust and intake would fix the XJR's power problem REAL quick.

Gambit,

Here is the first page of the challenge. You'll find the picture here.
http://www.carzone.co.za/html/gervsjap.html

http://www.carzone.co.za/assets/images/GermanyVzJap_Logo.JPG

[This message has been edited by Snoopy (edited October 03, 2000).]

The only rich man's car I'd trade mine for is the Mercedes 12 cylinder roadster. Drool!

Gary

*cough* 2001 Porsche 911 Turbo *cough*

The Evo Extreme is not a mass production car the STI is, and its faster than the EVO GSR,
0-60
4.6 STI
4.8 EVO VI
put the M5 against the STI in a twiesty road and the STI will vanish leaving the M5 far far far behind,
and don't even try to race an M5 on a wet road,
give me a Lexus for luxary and an STI for fast driving, all for the price of one M5.

Actually the M5 is a little to large for my tastes, give me the new M3, that car just looks sweet. Speaking of sweet cars anyone see the Mazda 626 MPS? There is a picture of it, along with the new Impreza's in Car magazine. That car looks sharp, plus they are saying its going to be AWD with 280 horsepower!!! Please please tell me they are bringing it to America, please!!!

We can Dream http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

And if that doesn't work, we can kidnap Nasser and force them to. So who wants to go to prison for a car http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/wink.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/rolleyes.gif

[This message has been edited by NeedaScooby (edited October 05, 2000).]

Being a BMW owner and member of the BMWCCA, I only have one thing to say...that was GREAT!
I am sooo tired of people looking down on Japanse cars becasue they are Japanese. My wife's 86' E28 is a wonderfull car for what it is, but few can beat the Japanese for raw performance. And no one can beat them at the same price.

-Matt, soon to be WRX owner (my wife said I could get one :^) ).

Cheers!

This is in regards to the other post about the M5 and the Impreza.

When BMW says "Fastest Saloon in the World", back it up or back out.

Wow. It REALLY gives people THAT much pleasure slamming BMW. Well...I guess it's SOMETIMES nice to SHOW what you're capable of, but I'd rather just have fun with what I have and that's it. And I'm going to get a lot of slack for this, but I already put my deposit down for a 2001 M3.

C'mon. It's all in the spirit of competition. If they make a claim, people will test it.

No one REALLY slammed the BMW. We're just praising the Impreza. The M5 just happened to be the competition.

Oh..and i'm NOT slamming ANYONE, or saying that I'm above it, because I KNOW I'm not. nothing more than an observation. And i'd trade my Subie for an M5 in a SECOND!

haha I love it! I'm going to have to show this to my Beemer buddie =P

http://www.stopstart.redhotant.com/smilie/scoobsmile4.gif

There is an Evo6 with 450hp that you can buy from ralliart UK. It's a regular Evo6 with performance mods on it.
Those UK guys are really into their cars...

Evo6 variants:
GSR
RS
RS2
RS Sprint
Extreme
RS450

Jesus, there's a lot of HATE on this board. Particularly from Markus, and burninrubber (from whom I've read little else) - this is the kind of tat you get on Clubsi. And no, Markus, it's not illegal to uphold the law.

MikeYOX: BMW corporate (that's the Germans) probably doesn't give a monkey's about this. The Europeans by and large don't know how to spell Subaru, and by dint of this board being practically all-American I doubt the anti-BMW message of hate would ever get through. They couldn't care less, and will continue to sell M5s by the bucketload (presumably this will have you lot seething and writhing in hate?).

I would certainly deny any warranty claim from someone if I found out the car has been raced, and it was in the warranty - why wouldn't I? Check your own Subaru warranty - I bet it says the same. Mine does.

Andy T
Likes Scoobs, likes BMWs, doesn't like mega-defensive, foul-mouthed haters ("scheisskopf"??)

If I had $45k, I'd get a new M3!
But I dont, so If I had $25k I'll get a 2002 WRX!
But I dont, so ill probably get a Focus ZX3 for $15k!
But I dont, so ill probably keep driving the car I have... oh well

YOu know bmw and subarus play a different niche. Right now I just can't see anywhere which a person who is shopping for a new car and are looking for prestige and performance would want to get a Subaru. On the other hand a person looking for a relatively cheap subcompact that can perform decently is able to afford a new BMW. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/rolleyes.gif
I love how the 3 series evolved. I never could imagine it can can look any better than the previous generation (e36 models) then the new e46 came out and they look awesome. Not many mfg can make their car look perform good with each model iteration. That my friends is why it's BMW and no other.
Having said that, I still want a WRX to tool around. Cus for a cheaper price I can get a better performance car to a 330Ci/i.... also my need for amneties is very modest.

Andy_T,

Have you ever owned a BMW????? Well, let me tell you, when they're running well, very few cars can compare to the overall "feeling" that a BMW can provide. They have simply incredible suspensions and for the most part great cars.

Now a time for a relaity check!!! Have you ever taken your BMW in for a simple oil change and come back later only to be handed a bill for $300??? Well, it happened a lot of times with my BMW's and I just got fed up. If owning a prestigious mark of car means I have to fork over mucho bucks for simple service work then I'm not interested. I'd rather take my wife to Mexico for holidays for the price of 4 oil changes than to have the previledge of driving a BMW.

Oh, and BTW, on a couple of occasions, I had some of the "major" service intervals on my BMW's run well over $1500.

Thus my comment that on a performance/$ value, the BMW gets two thumbs down from me.

IMO, Subaru's provide 9/10ths the overall driving "feeling" that BMW's do, at a fraction of the initial cost and a miniscule portion of the cost to maintain. Just look at the top four reliability marques in a Consumers Report; Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subaru in that order. BMW is WELL down the list.

Also, try driving the new Legacy's and tell me that it doesn't ride as well as a BMW with the benefit of AWD.

If you detected any hostility in my previous post, it was probably all the "flashbacks" I had from the service department at my local BMW dealership.

Peace,
MB

Ummm ... wouldn't an M3 Evo be a factory homologation model as well? This is the first time I have ever heard of it before.

Well... I've owned a BMW before (E36) and thought it was great. A bit lardy, though it had an ability to "come alive" when you drove it hard. I absolutely agree that the car was very expensive, to buy and to run (oil change was 100 quid, or US$150). But then as soon as the warranty was out, I halved my running costs by going to a BMW specialist instead.

BMWs tend to hold their value well - better than most cars. Whether or not this is justified is irrelevant; it was enough to sway a decision as to whether you spend a bit more up front and the depreciation was very manageable.

Notwithstanding financial prudence, here in Oz a base 318i is fifty grand, not counting on-road costs. A 325i is over 70k. No way would I spend that kind of money, regardless of how good it feels on the road (and for a modestly-powered small sedan it's not bad at all). So I bought a Leg' instead - same body control, superior ride, not quite as much balls-out grip but the 4WD allows it to put power down more effectively. Servicing costs are also high but not as high as BMW, but I will be buying another one of these when it's time to change this one, despite the dreadful fake wood on the dashboard.

If I had the money up-front, instead of buying a new M5 I'd buy a late-model old one (E34 shape), and spend the difference on a fun car. But in neither new or old M5 would I go hunting Imprezas or Mitsu Evos on a race track.

Andy T

PS Perhaps the overreaching members of the BMW Club of SA will consider racing a 750iL against an S-class round the track instead - now that would be a hoot

$150??

Where on EARTH are you getting your oil changed guys?! I can't believe those prices. And why did you pay them? I get oil changes on my E30 M3 for about $40, which I still think is over priced. This is from the most highly regarded independent BMW shop in the area. Even the dealerships aren't that much more.

Geez.

Greg.

I saw an M5 commercial today (the one with the M5 filming the land speed record car).

It still said

M5 "The fastest sedan on the planet"

http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

lets see.. if I had money..

20Ks.. RS. (Oh wait, i have one. COOl!)
45K.... Audi S4
60K-100K... Skyline R33-R34 V-spec, budget depending.

Bimmers are cool and all, but what they lack are AWD and a turbo (or two). The two ingredients for a truly great super-car. (ok yah, yah, the Mclaren F1 didn't have either of these, but man.. can you imagine twin-turboing the V12 in that puppy?)

Don

Yes! The legacy IS 9/10th's BMW in terms of feel, and thats why my mom got the GT Limited Sedan instead of paying $5k more to get the 323 (with less rear seat room). AWD was the other reason http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smile.gif

BMW's are great cars and, for the most part, you get your $$'s worth. I, personally, wouldn't own one (except for maybe an E30 M3 EvoIII) because they just aren't my type of car. They do kick ass performance-wise, however.

By the way, the new mazda 626's are crap. It looks like a blatant rip-off. Mazda's tend to be cheap and ill-manufactured (with few exceptions). Mazda will never parallel the 13B RX7.

justin

I just want to know why we don't get the really good Legacy cars over here!!! If we did, I'd have forked over the extra cash!!!
http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

I drove a Legacy. Very, very, VERY nice.
However....... big for the 165hp. engine.
It needs more.

-S2-

Sorry Guys!! I forgot to mention that the prices I was paying were in Canadian dollars. In US dollars it would be roughly 2/3 of that price.

I also took my Bimmer to a BMW specialist to lower the costs, but it still didn't bring the cost down to anything less than C$150 bucks for the basics.

Last Oil Change on my Subie...C$60 (that was with Synthetic). http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/biggrin.gif

Siper,
I completely agree!! My wife's Legacy GT needs at least another 30 horses. If they ever do provide a turbo in that car in a couple of years. I'll sell my Impreza and get one of those.

Cheers,
MB

The new Legacy will have a flat six.

Turbo that sucker and....that sounds like a plan.

*bump*

http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif I love my posts! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

I liked this part
"But the event went on without the M5s, and
with the exception of a
few other lesser BMWs
racing, the only sign of
the company was a BMW
patrol car lurking about
and spying on any
possible M5 curfew
breakers."
Gimme a break!!http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif Funny stuff.

[This message has been edited by STiTkacik (edited April 09, 2001).]

I love the way the hate builds up. Take the really old story that formed the basis of this thread - it's been round several timed before because BMW bashers like hanging on to it. And why not? It's good material. The thread then denegerates into "yo yo yo BMW! Yo listen up g*dd*mn KrAuTz! Your cars are POS! Screw you!" even when the rest of BMW - which probably had very little, if anything, to do with this - has actually harmed no-one.

Good for the Impreza for showing the M5 a clean pair of heels. But then a road-going Caterham Superlight 500R in its highest state of tune will chew up every Impreza in the world, and spit them out for breakfast, in practically every discipline. Why, it'll even beat a MacLaren F1 to 100 mph and back to zero. Not to mention a large number of superbikes. But just because the million-dollar MacLaren got beat by a $60,000 stripped-out racer doesn't make the driver, designer, marketer, salesman or the insurance underwriter of the MacLaren a worthless f**king pr*ck now, does it? Or is that what some of you think?

A major magazine did a test between the P1 and the M5 a while back. The P1 reached the point by 4 car lengths. Not sure what the distance was, 1/4 mile?

that's because the P1 is the best Impreza ever made... hands down...

j.

despite the dreadful fake wood on the dashboard


Actually, when I first sat in a Legacy with that dashboard, I thought it was really nice.

*chipmunk laughter in background*

No, really. I liked it.

*more chipmunk laughter*

Who DOES have the link to this video? I found it a long time ago, before I joined the board. But can't remember where it was.
BTW, SubieGal, I thought you gave the 1st place crown to the RB5 and the P1 got second.http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

-DAN

[This message has been edited by RS2001 (edited May 18, 2001).]

I love the way the hate builds up. Take the really old story that formed the basis of this thread - it's been round several timed before because BMW bashers like hanging on to it. And why not? It's good material. The thread then denegerates into "yo yo yo BMW! Yo listen up g*dd*mn KrAuTz! Your cars are POS! Screw you!" ...
... But just because the million-dollar MacLaren got beat by a $60,000 stripped-out racer doesn't make the driver, designer, marketer, salesman or the insurance underwriter of the MacLaren a worthless f**king pr*ck now, does it? Or is that what some of you think?


whoa... someone is a little bent out of shape, eh? BWM made a check they couldn't cash. They diserve a little embarrasment.

Frankly I am sick of people making comments about how "yuppie BMW drivers" are a bunch of people who buy their cars for the status and generally have more money than sense.

That is a generality and frankly it is incorrect. The BMW is and will always be a drivers car and a huge portion of BMW drivers buy them for that reason. BMW has a legacy that a company like Subaru would die to have.

I don't even understand the comparison between an M5 and an Impreza. Are there really people out there that are trying to decide between these two cars? They couldn't possibly be more different.

True, but I think the basis of this whole controversy is the fact that BMW stated they made the fastest saloon in the world, then proceeded to get their ass handed to them by a Subaru (sorry couldn't help ithttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif ). BMW does make great cars out the box, but they're not necessarily the pinnacle of performance that everyone praises them as. And arguing about interiors is just plain retarded.

Personally, I think BMW made a mistake bringing back the M5. They would've been better off sticking to their original plans of putting the V8 into the M3...that would've been awesome.

It is kinda stupid for them to make a claim like "fastest sedan on the planet."

BMW Patrol car policing warranty breakers?....only in South Africa...http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif

BMW rocks! But when they made that claim about their M5 being the fastest sedan in the world....well they should've also stated, the weight, price, # of cupholders as well.

This whole thing is just music to my earshttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

I'm not trying to fan the flames any higher, but I have to defend BMw a little bit, having owned 4 before my wife wanted to go back to college.
Everybody here seems to be ignoring the difference between "fastest" and "quickest". The M5 may not be the absolutely quickest sedan in mass production on the planet (although it may have been 1-1/2 years ago when that ad first came out), but I would guess that it has a higher top speed than the STi (i.e. "faster"). I think the M5 also holds the record for the fastest lap times for a production sedan at the Nurburgring (sp?), or at least it did when it made it's debut.
Now, "The Ultimate Driving Machine" may be stretching the truth a bit, but BMW makes some of the best all-around performance cars available at any price. They also have great AWD cars like the 325xi, after taking a break from them for about 10 years (the editor of the BMWCCA mag still beats the crap out of his old 325ix at every rally he can find including the AlCan). My wife and I have owned two 318ti's, a 323i Sport, and a Z3 2.3
The 318ti was not particularly quick from stoplight to stoplight, but the factory Sport model had outstanding handling, a fact evident to many a snobby M3 owner who could dash away from a 318ti on every straightaway, only to passed by it again in the twisties. We forked over the extra 5 grand for a 323i rather than the Legacy GT because it was simply more fun to drive.
Yes, a there lot of clueless BMW owners out there. But I can't even begin to count how many I'd be driving along, minding my own business when some twit in his Rustang or Firechicken or Type-R-whatever, or soccer mom in her giant SUV felt like they just *had* to pass me & cut me off to show me how much better their car was than my bimmer.
Well fine, I'd let 'em, that's not why I bought it anyway. I never thought about owning a BMW until I drove one by chance, and once I did never thought I'd by anything else, as long as I could afford them. Well things change, and I have to say the I loved the 323i and the Z3, but I liked driving my 4-banger 138hp lowly-hatchback 318ti ("trunk impaired" as the bmw elitists would say "real Bimmers have trunks") the best. And my Impreza 2.5 RS has that same scrappy attitude that my 318ti had.
So to make a long story even longer, there's a 1000 reasons to love a bimmer, and there's a 1000 reasons to love a scooby. BMW South Africa, like BMW NA, is free to make their own policies regarding warranties, within the laws of their respective countries. Oh, and BTW, in the bmw forums, you'd usually only see the kind of "not-our-marque" loathing and self-righteousness that I've witnessed here, on the M3 sites. 99% of the 318ti owners club were very friendly, unpretentious, respectful, etc. Many were proud owners of other great cars, talked about them, compared them, but always felt there was something special about the ti. And, they didn't even bash ricey civics, LOL!
&lt;flame suit on&gt; http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by BadDog (edited May 21, 2001).]

LOL gambit!!!! thats the one complaint i have with my car, 2 frikkin cup holders, none in the back, n they cheap as hell. after examinin em n tryin to use em, i found that they are perfect for beer cans, what the hell are those germans up to?? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gifhttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gifhttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

anyways, can we stop this "the impreza is supreme over &lt;insert car here&gt;" sentiment? i mean the car being compared is the sti and we dont even get that here, and i dont care how quick the car is, it's not the best frikkin car out there, period. get over it. this arrogance is the same type of thing that most likely prompted bmw marketists to call their m5 the best performing saloon car when its not.

and about bmw drivers (i happen to be one) thinkin they own the roads, in the words of booker t, "dont hate the player, hate the game"

i cant believe somebody revived this thing....

I don't think many of us in here would turn down an M3 or M5 if it cost $25k or less. I personally was thinking about saving up for a 2001 M3, but after reading about the WRX I couldn't justify it. Plus I started to like the idea of having a car that not many people would recognize that could perform as well or better than a S4, etc.

Just my opinion...

Funny, my mom and I opped for the GT Limited over the 323i cause we coulndt justify the 5 grand for the little bit more performance and lack of AWD... But we were THIS _ close to getting the Beemer!

I just love the looks we get from 90% of the 3-series owners who see her White GT Limited Sedan w/ spoiler drive by! (You'd be surprized at the looks and comments we get!) http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Anyway, I wouldnt say "best all around performance" cause that doesnt include off-road http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif Sure, the Xi can do it, but nothing like an WRX, and it costs just soo much more http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif Of course, you dont get the lux, but thats where the money difference comes in.

And I think the "BMW" factor is starting to pale now since a new "Subaru" factor is starting to grow here in America, and fast http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Kostamojen, please note that I said "some of the best all-around performance cars available at any price" http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif
Oh, and as much as I love my Impreza, in the entire time my wife and I owned the 4 bimmers, there were maybe 2 very minor problems among the 4 of them. My '97 318ti had a squeaky (loose) dead pedal when new (fixed in 5 min. by dealer) and the some rubber or plastic in the steering column would creak below 10 F. And in my '01 Z3, a tensioner in the convertible top broke. No problems at all with the wife's '96 318ti or the '01 323i. My scooby has had these issues that the dealership hasn't fixed: cracked windshield (thermal stress, still waiting for replacement part after over 2 months), bad steering alignment since new (dealer still hasn't been able to get me in to fix since March, I waited for the "thaw"), loose heat shields, misaligned driver's side door, rear passenger side brake squeal front air dam/bumper is loose on the passenger side, and of course, the incurable condition of the 1st and Reverse synchros occasionally not working properly without a double-clutch.
But I'm still generally pretty satisfied with the car; it's a hell of a deal for $19,500. If I had paid close to $25,000 for a WRX though, I wouldn't be so happy http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by BadDog (edited May 22, 2001).]

Jatwolf:
If an STI (not regular WRX) thats 280hp, 4.6 sec 0-60, was 25k nobody would turn it down either, so what?
STI costs less than an M3 and its faster and has AWD!

IsraelGT... I did buy the WRX afterall! I was just trying to say that they are both sweet cars and there is no point in putting one or the other down. I would love to have an STI, M3 or M5. At this point though, I just can't wait until my WRX arrives. It will be a while though (close to 2 months)...

You know, I test drove an M3 and was not impressed. I was, however, impressed with the WRX, Thats why i bought it. Please no one tell me i am stupid or wrong because i didnt like the M3. It was a nice car, but to me it didnt justify the extra 10 grand for a used one. Thgats my opinion, and i like telling people that i liked the Subaru better than the M3.
--Adam

I think the difference in build quality between the BMW and the Subaru more than covers the price difference. The build quality of Subarus is frankly, a joke and it is what is stopping me from buying the WRX.

Please don't get me wrong. I own a 2000 RS and I love it. But I got sick of all the squeaks and rattles that developed almost immediately.

I took a 99 M3 out yesterday and I am seriously thinking of getting it while I wait for my new one to arrive. It is a gorgeous car, the power and handling are fantastic and the build quality is head and shoulders above anything Subaru makes.

63 Alpine wrote, " BMW has a legacy that a company like Subaru would die to have".
Is this so?
What is this legacy based on....one F1 drivers championship 1983, before and since then nothing. Compared to Subaru's 3 World Rally championships. Seen any Issetta's lately?

The M5 being the fastest sedan on the planet? Didn't the M5 hand it down to the Impreza (sti?) about a year ago?

The M5 being the fastest sedan on the planet? Didn't the M5 hand it down to the Impreza (sti?) about a year ago?

OK, first of all I want it said that I love my Subaru. I have put a lot of money into it and it is a fantastic racer. With that said, I can't even believe that I would have to explain BMWs incredible history in racing.

Ever heard of a car called the 3.0CSL? It dominated sports car racing for years. Ever heard of a car called the M3? It dominated sports car racing for years and it will dominate sports car racing for years to come. Ever heard of the BMW V12 LMR? It was the only car that could run with and regularly beat Audi. Now the BMW-Williams F1 car easily has the most powerful car on the track. An engine built by BMW. There is a reason that you can not go to a club racing event without seeing BMWs everywhere you look.

I am not saying this to be argumentative. These two car companies are apples and oranges. I love them both but they don't play in the same space and should not be compared. That was the point of my initial post.

Didja know that in Jamaica all the Rastafarians drive BMW's; they think it stands for Bob Marley and the Wailers. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/cool.gif

Let's keep this in perspective, BMW's racing history is second rate at best and can't be compared to Ferrrari, Porsche Alfa Romeo or Mercedes....even Honda has won more F1 races.

BMWs problem one of image, exemptified by your second paragraph which is hyperbole at best and not worthy of a detailed reply....how would you know the BMW-Williams car has the most powerful engine on the track? Maybe there not running as much downforce?

BMWs are fine cars, owned one myself, but Subaru does not have to die for BMW's legacy, it's just fine with the one it has.

What I said about the BMW-Williams engine is generally accepted within the F1 world. That is not the point though. BMW has a great history in &lt;b&gt;sports car racing&lt;/b&gt;. This has nothing to do with F1. Are you saying that the 3.0CSL did not dominate sports car racing? are you saying that the M3 did not win nearly every sports car championship out there? Are you saying that the LMP did not beat Audion a regular basis? Exactly what did I say is hyperbole and not worth a detailed response?

Where did I say that Subaru had to die for BMWs legacy? I have gone out of my way in every single post on this subject to point out that they are two different types of cars. I see no problem that the Impreza beat the M5. Great for Subaru. I'd love an STi. But I am sure as heck not standing there looking at an STi and an M5 trying to decide which one I should buy.

Well, yes, BMW does have an outstanding history (not great) in sports car racing, Hell, they even won Le Mans in 1999 and beat Audi to boot.
So over a period of the last 34 years (1966-2000) BMW has won once, which equals the record of Mazda, Renault and Rondeau (heard of them?). Compare this to Porsche with 17 wins, or Ford with 4. As an excercise in BMW humility, why don't you compare the racing history of Ford and BMW and you will find that Ford has a great record: F1, World Rally Champions, let alone racing in this country every weekend, just like an M3. I could go on, but by now I'm sure you understand the point; BMW's racing history is second rate and should be kept in perpective relative to the acheivement of other makes, and you should be magnanimous, not exclusionary. It's unfortunate that people like you and your ilk perpetuate the myth of BMW superiority. BMW doesn't need it, their record stands, as does Subaru's.
With 3 World Rally Championships, Subaru has a legacy that BMW would die for ( sorry, an exageration).


[This message has been edited by MPH (edited May 24, 2001).]