Hi all,

I installed a 4 guage GND wire between neg. battery terminal and GND distibutor; I then added 2 x 8 guage GND wires to driver side manifold and driver side strut tower. This definitely smoothed out the power delivery, but torque beyond 3500 RPM definitely feels weaker. I haven't timed myself, but I'm almost certain my torque curve has smoothed out.

Next I added more GNDs - an additional 8 guage to the passenger side manifold and another to the passenger side strut. Strangely, the engine became more harsh again. I felt as if I removed the GND mod completely. Torque returned, but not smooth any more.

Now I've removed the GND wires from both of the strut towers and the car feels smooth like my first scenario, but maybe with a tiny bit more torque. Certainly not like stock.

Has anybody else other than Kurrican noticed this? If so, what did you do? I purchased my car last May, just in case there were any revisions to electrical thereafter.

Dave.

I did my grounding mod yesterday and I think I still retained that "stock" look for the most part. I used Monster Cable 8 gauge wire and gold plated ring terminals on the end and two 4 gauge terminals on either side of the battery to accept the four 8 gauge wires. I have not noticed that much of a difference yet, but I have not driven the car that much since then.

The pictures can be seen here. (http://y42.photos.yahoo.com/trdy2k) Just click on "The STOCK Grounding Mod" and let me know what ya think.

There are very good instructions here for this mod. Here it's called the "earthing mod" and it's for a Legacy B4, but I found it to be very helpful to me.

http://www.lumine.net/subaru/legacyb4/tuning/earthing2.html


Sorry if it's been already posted.

I did the mod and I feel that it has helped the problem that I had. Before the mod I had hesitation if I would get off throttle and then get back on. It was present in 2nd and 3rd gear @ about 3k-4.5k. I bought a 4/8 gauge block and some nice wire that make's the mod stand out so that their is no question what the extra wire's crawling around my engine bay are for. I have one ground on each of the front strut towers and two and the block, and damn let me tell you that it help me. No more hesitation and the car seems alot smoother. I post pics when I can. I tried to make every thing look more like it was a kit that was made for the car. If you've got similar problems like me or anyone else on this thread I don think that it would hurt to try it ou. Just my .02:p

Lowering my boost to 16.5+ in 4rth has greatly minimized the overboost in partial throttle, it pretty much has cut it in half.
It looks like when you set the Auxillary Boost Controller too high, the Unichip cannot control partial throttle boost effectively.
Lowering the part throttle overboost has greatly minimized the
stumbling effect at 2500-4000 rpm.
I have also added the one wire grounding mod to the engine.
It's a 4 guage wire from the battery to the intake, 24".
By doing these to things, the car feels 500% better at part throttle!

I find it interesting that no one responded to my thought on soldering the existing connections to see if that helps. Is there something I am missing here?

We're ignoring you;)

Soldering certainly wouldn't hurt but unless there is corrosion, crimped connections have very little resistance.

But isn't that the point? The "little resistance" here and there causing problems? Not getting a good ground and adding more wires to get it? Crimping is a good "physical" connection, but not necessarily a good "electrical" one. I guess no one has tried it. While I don't seem to be having a drivabilty issue (maybe the converter "masks" it?), I'm going to solder the connections (if they are "solderable") and see what happens. NOTE: on the positive terminal at the battery, the large wire to the starter is only crimped, while the smaller lead to "the rest of the car's electrics" IS SOLDERED. I find that interesting.

Is there any possibility that there is a "noisy" sinewave being transmitted through the car's wiring, that is causing the knock sensor(or other equally important sensor) to cause these erratic stuttering problems?

As an aside... I had to have my radar detector modified with what the manufacturer called "the Honda modification"(no joke) They also called it the "airport modification"(although the reason for this eludes me). The unit was seriously falsing on an intermittant basis, which they determined was due to the noisy(electrical) characteristics of Honda alternators. I had a Mazda at the time, but they said that sometimes the alternators will for some unknown reason intermittantly throw out some seriously noisy waves. The mod worked, and the unit has been trouble free for for the last 4 or 5 years.

In the above situation, the problem was being caused in the distribution side(alternator) of the system, and not in the return side(ground).

I may be totally off base here, but hey it's just some food for thought!

Andy

Hmmmm...
I don't have access to an ocilloscope but it would seem very feasable that there could be some noise or ripple in th output and the car would be sensitive to it...
The latest thing I have been thinking of has been a #8 or larger ground deticated to the alternator. I dont have any systems (stereo & subs) in the car yet. I may never get to it either.
In the MY00 Legacy Outback Wagon I had I would notice a severe dimming of the head lights when the bass would hit...
After thinking about the stock grounding on that car it was pitifull.
I had a 1/2 farid cap on the sub in the back (1-12" & 325rms pushing).
I havent checked amp draw accross the #12 I put on factory grounds if any reasonable draw shows up I'll put a deticated ground to the alternator...If I do get my hands on an O'scope I'll probbibly see if there is any output problems. One could always put some filtering on the whole system eg. some caps & or coils.

Did it this weekend.

#10 wire - neg terminal to manifold, also factory ground point to driver side strut tower.

no noticable difference. still have a slight surging hesitation with hard acceleration.

Mods: Vishnu 0 with intercooler hoses.

I would think it would be related to the mod... I think MBC's have been noted for a little boost waver if that is the feeling that your getting... do you have a boost gauge? at its worst do you still make way more power than stock?
Check with the guys who have had MBC's for a while to see what is "normal"

Columbo: It is interesting that the smaller Pos. wire is soldered.

GLwagon: We have a very nice portable digital 'scope at work. When I go back on Tuesday I will check for ripple riding on the DC.

Also check at the battery,main fues panel under hood,& the fuse panel under the dash...
Inductive loss (so minimal) in conjuction with the battery may smooth the output to nothing but pure DC (hypothetically)...
the next question... how many mfarid or ufarid would be needed to smooth the ripple?
A handfull of 4700uf put in parallel may help...or a caraudio grade .25farid hidden under the hood?
the question is if there is a problem how to correct it:confused:
it is up to you I dont have an Oscope...
let me know what you find

Instead of going the route everyone else posted I decided to try something slightly different. I decided to try and atleast clean up the existing grounds from Subaru. I took off all of the bolts at each ground and used a dremel with a wire brush to clean them. Some actually had a nice layer of paint in between. I then coated with dielectric grease and put back together. I have not had a chance to measure the post mod resistance (it was raining hard today) but I feel safe to say there is a much more consistent ground.

I was skeptical at first but when I took the car for a ride the stumbling is gone during part throttle acceleration. It took me about 1/2 hour and a couple bucks for the grease and it seemed to do the same thing as running new cables. I will try to measure it tomorrow if the weather is better and post the results.

But either way this mod is done it is highly recomended.

I've gone to 3 hardware stores looking for "dielectric grease" and all I get is blank stares... what should I be looking for?

Originally posted by Brad B.
I've gone to 3 hardware stores looking for "dielectric grease" and all I get is blank stares... what should I be looking for?

You'll have much better luck locating the grease at an autoparts store :)

I did it, and I didn't notice any difference. I'm going to leave it there though in hopes that maybe it actually does make a difference. One thing I did notice is that my EGT gauge doesnt bounce as much (it used to go up and down 1mm every now and then).

I found something called 'Bulb Grease' at Wal-Mart. It is intended for use with auto bulbs so they don't seize in their sockets. It seems to be silicone dielectric grease.

That said, what I used on my WRX was Kopr-Shield. It is Thomas and Betts #CP8-TB, available at most electric supply stores. It is conductive and prevents corrosion.

Dielectric greese can be purchased from both Autozone and Checker for $.99.

I have started embarking on this grounding mod and I have positive results already. I didn't purchase enough terminals so I have only run one 8ga wire thus far. I have taken it from the negative battery terminal over to the driver's side intake manifold. Already, the car has completely changed for the better. I originally thought it was just my imagination, but after driving around some more the car is much much smoother. Later I'll go ahead and add some more to keep everything consistant but for now it's already fixed my problems.

-Jon
www.nothingserious.net

Don't use dielectric grease between anything you want to coduct electricity. A dielectric is an insulator. You should only put the dielectric grease on top of the connection after it is tightened. Kopr-Kote (I think that's how it's spelled) is a conductive paste which is used as an anti-sieze and rust inhibitor compound. It works with similar and disimilar metals. There are other conductive pastes too, with silver oxide and particles but they are a lot more expensive.

Originally posted by Automaton
Don't use dielectric grease between anything you want to coduct electricity. A dielectric is an insulator. You should only put the dielectric grease on top of the connection after it is tightened. Kopr-Kote (I think that's how it's spelled) is a conductive paste which is used as an anti-sieze and rust inhibitor compound. It works with similar and disimilar metals. There are other conductive pastes too, with silver oxide and particles but they are a lot more expensive.

There is nothing wrong with using Dielectric grease between anything you want to conduct electricity. Dielectric grease is meant to protect electrical connections. If you sand down the paint to bare metal you better do something in order to protect it from rusting. I have never heard of Kopr-Kote but it probably would work as well.

http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?f_call=get_item&item_no=26984

I looked at the PERMATEX Tune-Up Kit. It has two products in it: 1) dielectric grease; 2) anti-sieze lubricant. The dielectric is to be put over various ignition system components to prevent water getting in and rust forming, it is not conductive. The dictionary defines dielectric as: electrical insulator. It is also possible that the anti-sieze lubricant is also not a good conductor. As well, a district service manager for Subaru of Canada who has over 40 years of experience as a mechanic has confirmed that dielectric grease should be used OVER the ground terminations, not between the metal parts through which electricity flows and that its purpose is to prevent corrosion.

I don't have time to read 200+ posts right now, but I did read the first few pages and last page. I figured I would add my own results. I have the following installed right now.


M2 Catless turboback
M2 Catless Uppipe
A/F Ratiometer
Boost (Mechanical)
BPM Silicon Inlet Hose
MRT Intake Filter

I added a 10 or 8 gauge wire from the negative terminal of the battery to the closest intake manifold bolt (it had another ground wire on it) and it appeared to make clutch shudder worse. I am still checking to make sure, but I assure you I am comparing as with as many variables the same as possible.
Could anyone tell me if maybe the clutch shudder is a very slight voltage innacuracy in the TPS that makes a slow takeoff shudder (not enough fuel for the TPS position, thus not enough power to smooth out the clutch shudder?)
Just an idea.
That also made me wonder if you couldn't modify the TPS signal (with resistors or an AFC) so that you could drop the wastegate to EBC transition (and the closed to open loop operation with it) down to a more reasonable 30% or so and solve the whole EGT issue with a MBC.

Clutch shudder is the pressure plate not holding properly and allowing the clutch disk to skip between it and the flywheel. Modifying your grounds should not have any effect on the clutch shudder as it is a mechanical issue, not electrical.

-Jon
www.nothingserious.net

I understand what clutch shudder is, but you can invoke it or prevent it by doing certain things. It was just a shot in the dark.

Originally posted by Automaton
I looked at the PERMATEX Tune-Up Kit. It has two products in it: 1) dielectric grease; 2) anti-sieze lubricant. The dielectric is to be put over various ignition system components to prevent water getting in and rust forming, it is not conductive. The dictionary defines dielectric as: electrical insulator. It is also possible that the anti-sieze lubricant is also not a good conductor. As well, a district service manager for Subaru of Canada who has over 40 years of experience as a mechanic has confirmed that dielectric grease should be used OVER the ground terminations, not between the metal parts through which electricity flows and that its purpose is to prevent corrosion.

So you can not get corrosion between terminals? The TUNE UP Grease is meant to be used in a cap and rotor to protect it from corrosion. Are you saying there is no electricty flowing there? Or how about spark plugs and the boots, again no electricity? This is not going to stop electrcity from flowing THROUGH an electrical connection even if dielectric is defined as an electrical insulator. It will protect electrical connections and wiring from salt, dirt and corrosion.

But up in Canada I think they do things differently, Ehh.:)

OK, what soldering material should I use on a copper/gold surface? i.e. copper wire and gold connector?

I've got a 4x 8 gauge grounding block that accepts a 4 gauge wire to connect it to the battery. The terminals and the grounding block is gold plated but there will definitely be electrolytic reaction which will cause some oxidation of the copper if a good soldering material is not used.

How do stereo shops do it?

Thanks

Mark

Originally posted by Black 2002 WRX


So you can not get corrosion between terminals? The TUNE UP Grease is meant to be used in a cap and rotor to protect it from corrosion. Are you saying there is no electricty flowing there? Or how about spark plugs and the boots, again no electricity? This is not going to stop electrcity from flowing THROUGH an electrical connection even if dielectric is defined as an electrical insulator. It will protect electrical connections and wiring from salt, dirt and corrosion.

But up in Canada I think they do things differently, Ehh.:)

In the case of these items (if the "Tune Up" grease is in fact dielectric) there are parts where metal touches metal or the film of grease is so thin that the current arcs. I’m not sure if your posting is trying to prove that dielectric grease conducts electricity or not. Have you ever worked on an older car with points? The arc occurs when the points are apart. The air is between them is not a conductive material but given the voltage across the points, the electricity will arc. There is a bit of a difference with this voltage and the one at your grounding strap. The dielectric grease will not conduct electricity but there will be a voltage potential across the two pieces of metal…much like a capacitor.

For that matter, if you give a capacitor long enough, current will no longer flow through it. Spark plugs have current running through them at very small periods of time. Your grounding strap will likely have a voltage across it the entire time your car is on. After a given period of time (about 5 time constants of you’ve studied any circuit dynamics) there will only be a voltage across it and it will act as an open circuit. If current does arc through the D-grease then this will cause heat, which will in turn increase the resistance of the connection.

I would go with the metal on metal connection and then some D-grease on the connection. I also use a lot of heat shrink after a good soldering.

Good Luck with whatever you choose to do.:)

Ray

The Gold is very restant to corosion...
The Copper will turn to copperoxide witch is still considered to be conductive. Honestly have you ever seen a carstereo install older than 3 or 4 years...
the copper holds up very well usually the ruber Orings on the in-line fuse holders go to poop though.:rolleyes:

A capacitor is a dielectric sandwiched between to conductive plates. Air, plastic, and other materials are dielectrics. It takes five time constants to charge a capacitor and, once charged, electricity doesn't flow in the circuit until discharge occurs. Metal oxides are conductive. Dissimilar metals should only be conncected together with the use of an anit-oxidant compound otherwise galvanic corrosion will occur. Dielectric grease should only be used on the electrical connection after all the clean metal parts are tightened together. Of the metals, gold, silver, and copper, gold is the least corrodable but copper is a better conductor than gold. The rubber fuseholder parts break down from heat, dryness, and ozone. Covering the rubber parts with dielectric grease may prevent the rubber from drying out and breaking down from ozone.

Originally posted by Automaton
A capacitor is a dielectric sandwiched between to conductive plates.


You're right, but...

A capacitor is actually two conductors seperated by a non-conductive material, not the other way around.

I'm not trying to be a jackass, the only reason I say that is because it makes a big difference when dealing with capacitive affects on something like a transmission line or in filter tuning.

That's more of an FYI than a correction.

If you think about what I wrote about what a capacitor is, you will realize you are describing the same thing; a dielectric sandwiched between two plates is two conductors separated by a non-conductive material. The circuit's negative voltage connects to one plate, the positive voltage to the other plate.

Originally posted by Narcisse91



You're right, but...

A capacitor is actually two conductors seperated by a non-conductive material, not the other way around.

I'm not trying to be a jackass, the only reason I say that is because it makes a big difference when dealing with capacitive affects on something like a transmission line or in filter tuning.

That's more of an FYI than a correction.

Sorry Black WRX. The point I was trying to make is that maybe it doesn't take 5 time constants for the spark plug to spark, but the car will be turned on for, in effect, an infinite number of time constants and the connection with your grounding straps may act like a capacitor...oen curcuit...at t=infinity.

Ray;)

I agree with everything you said *except* your statement that dielectric grease should only be used AFTER a connection is made, on the outside.

The 'bulb grease' I mentiomed above MUST be non-conductive because it is designed to be used in sockets. If it were conductive there would be a very good chance that it would cause a short between the pos. and neg. terminals.

Although it is counter-intuitive to use a NON-conductive grease on an electrical connection before making that connection, that is exactly how dielectric grease should be used. For example, many automotive electrical connectors are assembled this way. You might have noticed this when replacing a headlight bulb.

The way it was explained to me was that the mating metal terminals or connectors simply push the grease out of the way--it does not prevent good contact. What it does do is fill in any small gaps or irregularities in the surfaces thereby eliminating most oxidation.

With contacts which "wipe" across each other, the non-conductive dielectric grease will be scraped off, hopefully. I thought that this thread is about grounding connection which is not a "wipe" type contact; it is a compression type where all the conductive surfaces are stacked on top of each other and compressed and no scraping off of anything would occur. I would put the metallic (conductive) compound on the bare metal parts to be grounded, tighten everything, then thoroughly cover with the dielectric grease.

Your advice is good, and as a matter of fact (as posted earlier) I used Thomas&Betts 'Kopr-Shield' which is conductive and anti-corrosive.

That said, if the only anti-oxidant available were dielectric grease, it would certainly be better than nothing. On a compression fitting, it's easy enough to snug up the terminal, twist it a little, then tighten completely.

Putting dielectric grease on the *outside* only, would not provide complete protection. It assumes that the initial connection is dry, the mating surfaces are *perfectly* smooth and that the initial application of grease forms a total seal and will remain undisturbed.

If you doubt that using dielectric grease on a compression connection is ok, it is relatively easy to devise a test. For example, you could connect a decent load to a battery making one connection with grease, the other without. Then check the voltage drop across each.

The 'Kopr-Shield' is anti-corrosive consequently the dielectric grease is just the icing on the cake.

A consumer ohmmeter is not sensitive enough to determine the absolute electrical integrity of a connection's conductivity. When low level electrical signals are conducted, as there are in late-model cars, there are many detrimental effects of even a slightly poor electrical connection; that is what appears to be ocurring with Subarus.

I would bet serious money that the electrical conductivity of a connection without dielectric grease applied between the compressed parts is superior to one, with the same parts and prepared the same, where dielectric grease was put on between the compressed parts.

By the way, I am an electrician with over 30 years of experience including 15 years teaching electrical and electronic theory, lab, and shop to electrical and electronic technicians and technologists and electrical apprentices. I also design electrical and electronic equipment.

Originally posted by sajohnson
Your advice is good, and as a matter of fact (as posted earlier) I used Thomas&Betts 'Kopr-Shield' which is conductive and anti-corrosive.

That said, if the only anti-oxidant available were dielectric grease, it would certainly be better than nothing. On a compression fitting, it's easy enough to snug up the terminal, twist it a little, then tighten completely.

Putting dielectric grease on the *outside* only, would not provide complete protection. It assumes that the initial connection is dry, the mating surfaces are *perfectly* smooth and that the initial application of grease forms a total seal and will remain undisturbed.

If you doubt that using dielectric grease on a compression connection is ok, it is relatively easy to devise a test. For example, you could connect a decent load to a battery making one connection with grease, the other without. Then check the voltage drop across each.

Well I'm not an electrical engineer, but I play one on TV.:cool:

Actually, I am an electronic technician with over 20 years experience. Of course, that doesn't mean I am necessarily correct on this issue.

I don't think either one of us know the answer beyond a doubt.

I'll try and get some solid data one way or the other.

In the mean time, we seem to both agree that the best procedure is to use conductive anti-oxidant like "Kopr-Shield for the 'grounding mod'.

OK, I asked the 'guru'. Without discussing any details I posed the following question:

Given two choices when making a compression type connection--applying grease *after* assembly (on the outside only as a seal), or *before*, to the mating surfaces (as well as around the outside)--which would you say is better for initial and also long-term conductivity?

This is the response I received:

Applying grease to the mating surfaces of connectors before assembly may
lower initial conductivity by an insignificant amount, but maintain long-term
conductivity by inhibiting oxidation of the connection.

Granted, this is only one technician--but he is about the smartest person I've ever met. I've never known him to be wrong.

I will continue to search for a definitive answer.

Just a little update here:

I initially ran the ground from the driver's side intake manifold to the battery. This cleared up most of the hesitation. A week later I added a 3" ground from the battery terminal to the fender. This readded all the hesitation and then some. I'm going to play with some of the other grounds later but for some reason, reinforcing the already existant battery ground is bad on my car.

-Jon
www.nothingserious.net

After experimentation, I cured all my hesitation by connecting one 4 guage wire from the passenger side manifold to the battery neg. terminal. I'm theorizing that this is because the engine is not properly grounded under stock conditions. By connecting the engine more directlly to ground, I have also grounded all of the intake electronic components more effectively to ground. What do you other electrical engineers think about this and have any others tried this simple, one connection mod. to see if you have received the same benefit that I have?

Ed

electrical engineers???where?:confused:
I'm just curious, how many amps are you pulling through a hunk of #4 under "normal" operating conditions? (headlights, a/c & blower on high, stereo, etc)
just curious...

I have a request of the electrically curious who have a multimeter. I need these measurements to prove something about the electrical system to Subaru.

Please set your multimeter to DC volts, attach the leads to the battery terminals and, while the car is idling in neutral (make sure the parking brake is on), note the voltage and engine RPM. Then, turn on all of the electical loads including wipers, air-conditioner, fan at #4 position, headlights, etc. and note the voltage and engine rpm. Then, have someone slowly increase engine rpm until the voltmeter reading increases to 13.5 volts and note the engine RPM. If you do this, would you please post the results including the Subaru model and year of manufacture and whether your car has an automatic or manual transmission.

I havent done this "test" yet but I can tell you what will be a likely outcome.
NO load = low amps = good voltage at low RPM
High load = more amps = higher sustained RPM to equal same voltage output due to alternator designs & other stuff...
(I won't go in to details)
my WRX headlights don't dim at Idle (or I don't notice).
my Old MY00 Outback would dim at idle... also my VW, Chevy, & others...
Alternators put out Voltage varying with RPM, but it is regulated before it leaves the alternator its self. usually near 14.4v max
what are you trying to show subaru???
the ground problem is a unique problem in its self.

I have a decent Fluke meter calibrated to NIST standards.

I'm game, but what exactly are you trying to show SOA?

I think that Subaru has generally neglected the quality of the electrical system; poor/inadequate grounding is just one of the problems. I proved to Subaru that the electrical system on an automatic transmission 2002 Impreza TS was inadequate and got a full refund of the car's purchase price. They gave the refund because they don't want to replace the alternator with a better one as that would be admitting there is a problem and trigger a recall. Consequently, to force Subaru to deal properly with the problem, I am trying to prove that the electrical system in many or all Subaru cars is inadequate to operate the electrical loads and charge the battery when the engine is at low RPM such as at idle, in cities where traffic is stop-and-go , in slow moving traffic, and traffic jams. Low voltage causes various loads to underperform and can also cause poor engine performance, premature wear of the battery and alternator. I think that Subaru should recall their Imprezas and other models with the problem and replace the alternator with one that puts out higher voltage and current at low rpm. They did have an alternator replacement recall a few years ago for Legacy models, why shouldn't they do it now for Impreza models? As well, many people have proven that the grounding in Imprezas is faulty; that's one of the cuases of the hesitation problem and the reason for the "grounding mod". Why should Subaru owners put up with these problems; Subaru should fix them.


Originally posted by sajohnson
I have a decent Fluke meter calibrated to NIST standards.

I'm game, but what exactly are you trying to show SOA?

Automation,

Way to go!:D That is the way to get things handled. The factory obviously knows there are electrical issues that need to be addressed, and it is much cheaper to cut you a check for your car than have recall (again) on alternators. The fact of the matter is that the "grounding mod" would not work so well if the electrical system was up to snuff. It makes good sense that if the cars are coming with more power options that the alternator, grounding set up, and entire electrical system would be improved to handle the increased load on the system at all rpms. How much more would it cost them to put a better alternator in anyway? Whatever the price, It would certainly be worth the cost to Subaru to keep their loyal customers happy.;)

BTW,

Thanks for all of the good info on electrical systems. I will do the load test on my car today and post the results.

I've been following this "Grounding Mod" thread with much interest....
One question for you guys: does Subaru assemble cars in North America? or are they fully imported from Japan?

AFAIK, all in Japan, except for port-installed options like carbon fiber interior, maybe boost gauges and stereo upgrades:confused:, and dealer-installed options.

You apply dielectric grease to the inside of a spark plug wire before you put it on the plug. This would be a "before" method.


OK, I asked the 'guru'. Without discussing any details I posed the following question:

Given two choices when making a compression type connection--applying grease *after* assembly (on the outside only as a seal), or *before*, to the mating surfaces (as well as around the outside)--which would you say is better for initial and also long-term conductivity?

This is the response I received:

Applying grease to the mating surfaces of connectors before assembly may
lower initial conductivity by an insignificant amount, but maintain long-term
conductivity by inhibiting oxidation of the connection.

Granted, this is only one technician--but he is about the smartest person I've ever met. I've never known him to be wrong.

I will continue to search for a definitive answer.

Most, if not all, of the Subaru lineup is assembled in Indiana. No matter where the cars are built, they are being built with the parts supplied by Subaru (bad grounds, alternators and all). :(

All the Imprezas are built in Japan. Besides the electrical system deficiencies, the car I got a refund for also had: engine mount misalignment; gas leak smell; transmission upshift hesitation at 2,000 RPM. Because of that "lemon" Impreza, I don't believe that Japanese manufactured cars are any better built than those made in North America. As well as deficient design, parts, and manufacturing quality control being problems, Subaru's head office was very reluctant to do anything until l and others with defects, repair and other problems, posted our complaints on the Internet. Other manufacturers are beginning to compete with Subaru's AWD, horsepower, etc., so, if they don't get their act together, Subaru might begin to have problems selling their cars like they used to when their cars had rust and other problems. The only way we will get Subaru/Fuji Heavy Industries to do anything is by holding them accountable through exercising our freedom of speech and legal rights. I want to replace that Impreza TS they refunded the purchase price for but I want one which doesn't have these inherent problems such as poor grounding, inadequate electrical system, etc. I am hoping the 2003 model Impreza TS will be better.

Originally posted by outback2.5HO
Most, if not all, of the Subaru lineup is assembled in Indiana. No matter where the cars are built, they are being built with the parts supplied by Subaru (bad grounds, alternators and all). :(

Because of that "lemon" Impreza, I don't believe that Japanese manufactured cars are any better built than those made in North America.
I didn't mean to infer build quality issues when I asked where they're built, I was thinking more about the scope of the problem...ie: if ALL Subaru's are built in the one factory then FHI/Subaru have a global problem.....If locally assembled then there will be a certain "local content" of parts (I guess?), these MAY include electrical components such as alternators & looms.....food for thought......:)

If Automaton is saying the alternator is not up to snuff, then a Vishnu underdrive pulley would worsen the situation...

Originally posted by peczenij
If Automaton is saying the alternator is not up to snuff, then a Vishnu underdrive pulley would worsen the situation... More appropriately, *any* underdrive pulley would worsen the situation. As the Vishnu crank pulley is much less underdriven than most underdrive pulleys out there (around 10% underdrive, IIRC), it would be the best choice if you still wanted an underdrive pulley.

The way I figure, it's six of one and half a dozen of another.

You want to generate more current from the alternator at low RPM? Alright, well then your load on your engine shaft will have to increase at low RPM, where we all know the WRX needs more torque. Check up Lenz' law of magnetic induction. The current produced is proportional to the load, the number of winds, and a few other parameters like mu (magnetic permeability I think), size of iron core, yadda yadda yadda.

The point I'm trying to make is there are rarely black and white answers in life or in engineering; I suspect it wasn't just the cost factor that prompted the engineers to choose this particular alternator, despite all of its apparent disadvantages.

I'm not trying to be closed-minded, but I would be interested in hearing about the performance differences an alternator upgrade would make to otherwise stock WRXes. They're not very expensive.

Dave.

OK Automaton, here you go:

* Static voltage: 12.70 VDC
* No Load Idle: 14.33 VDC, 800 RPM
* Full Load Idle: 12.10 VDC, 600 RPM
* RPM required to generate 13.5 VDC: Approx. 1,000 RPM

Full load does not include fog lights (used high beams).

I used two meters, a Fluke 27 and a Fluke 8060A. They were within a couple hundreths of a volt of each other.

It would seem you are correct: The WRX has a lame alternator, or at least it is underdriven. At the very least, the WRX should maintain a min. 800 RPM idle, and possibly use a smaller alternator pulley.

I assume your car has a manual transmission. My Impreza TS had an automatic transmission, it also had daytime running lights but no fog lights. The electrical system voltage, while fully electrically loaded, was 11.5 VDC (ocassionally as low as 11.2 VDC).

There are higher output at low rpm alternators available. One such alternator is the Propower from Mechanical Man (www.mechman.com). There is also a device the police use, Trooper Charger (www.micro-tech-auto.com) which monitors the electrical load, battery, alternator output, and engine RPM, which varies engine RPM to increase or decrease alternator output according to electrical load. I told the dealer's service manager and Subaru district service manager about these remedies to the Impreza's alternator deficiency. The dealer's service manager would have used either remedy but Subaru wouldn't authorize it.

I can't stress enough that Subaru knows that their cars are faulty electrically and doesn't want to fix the problems, including poor grounding which would be the easy to remedy through better quality control at the factory. The alternator problem could also be fixed easily too.

Although many people probably think that these problems are fairly trivial, just think about being stuck in a serious snow storm or a traffic jam or slow traffic, when the battery is progressively being discharged because the alternator output is insufficient. The snow storm scenario is the scariest.


Originally posted by sajohnson
OK Automaton, here you go:

* Static voltage: 12.70 VDC
* No Load Idle: 14.33 VDC, 800 RPM
* Full Load Idle: 12.10 VDC, 600 RPM
* RPM required to generate 13.5 VDC: Approx. 1,000 RPM

Full load does not include fog lights (used high beams).

I used two meters, a Fluke 27 and a Fluke 8060A. They were within a couple hundreths of a volt of each other.

It would seem you are correct: The WRX has a lame alternator, or at least it is underdriven. At the very least, the WRX should maintain a min. 800 RPM idle, and possibly use a smaller alternator pulley.

Hey guys. I think this is all very useful information, and I personally would like to continue reading about it, but I think that we got off track from what the thread is about. The fact that Subaru’s alternator doesn’t provide the current needed at idle…I’m not positive that it would have any bearing on the sensors while the car is accelerating. I could be wrong though. This could be compounding the sensor problem that is causing the stumbling at gentle acceleration.

At any rate, may be we should move this information to a new thread?

Ray

Although the alternator problem is not strictly on topic for this thread, I think that engine performance problems, including hesitation, can be generally caused by electrical system problems.
Consequently, I think there should be an electrical and electronics forum with the "grounding mod" and the alternator problems as two separate threads.

Originally posted by Rumplestilzchen
Hey guys. I think this is all very useful information, and I personally would like to continue reading about it, but I think that we got off track from what the thread is about. The fact that Subaru’s alternator doesn’t provide the current needed at idle…I’m not positive that it would have any bearing on the sensors while the car is accelerating. I could be wrong though. This could be compounding the sensor problem that is causing the stumbling at gentle acceleration.

At any rate, may be we should move this information to a new thread?

Ray

I agree, this is a good issue but it should be a separate thread.

Has anyone here actually takin an Ohm meter to points around the bay and recorded the readings... then added a ground and checked to see if there was a diffrence and if so by how much..


One thing i would check first is the coil pack grounding point..
I have not purchased my WRX yet, so I don't know what its grounded to. But from reading it seems that by grounding the intake you are seeing better results.. I would check the stock grounding strap to the engine.. on both ends.. and also check the resistance of the wire..

Checking the resistance isn't much help.

The best tests are:

1) With all loads on, measure the electrical system voltage at various engine speeds.
2) With all the loads on, measure the voltage drop from one end of the connection to the other at various engine speeds;
3) Use an oscilloscope to view the electrical noise and measure the signal to noise ratio at various engine speeds.

#1 will reveal a deficient alternaor and/or battery and/or regulator.
#2 will reveal excessive voltage drop.
#3 will reveal if sensor signals are getting swamped by noise or if noise is causing the ECU to react erroneously.

I'll take door #3 Montie...

This may be un-scientific but I've got a stereo system in my car with 4 (count 'em, 4!) amplifiers. 150 watts per side RMS plus a 300W RMS sub. I can crank it up with lights on, stock alternator, stock battery and have absolutely no problems. Couldn't say that for the Honda it came out of - and it only had 3 of the 4 amps running! In the honda I needed a big alternator and Optima battery to handle it. Seems OK to me!

Chris

So far I have tried this "mod" with 3 different Guages of wire. 16, 12, and finally 4 guage. I have tried several variations of grounding points. At one time i thought I had it but soon realized that the hickups had returned once the car had warmed a bit. Does anyone think that this problem could be caused by a faulty Turbo or its control? Finally one last question. Don't we have a warranty that should cover this problem?

Ray: Checking noise with a 'scope is a good idea that has come up before. I had meant to do it and got side tracked. I will try to remember to check it tomorrow at work.

WRXuser: YES!, we do have a warranty that should cover the stumble/hiccups. Being the fanatics that we are we try to fix things ourselves sometimes;) .

Your experience is common. People have had varying degrees of success with the grounding mod. Personally, I experienced a dramatic improvement although the engine still is not as smooth as my old '93 NX2000, and the cold stumble at 4K rpm from the tumble generator valves is still present.

I don't think anyone has really solved this problem yet. I think SOA has learned from the computer software industry and is letting us do their troubleshooting.:(

In reguards to all these different gauged wires that I-Clubbers are using...If all we are trying to do is to improve upon the faulty/painted grounds that the car arrives with, then why are we using such large gauge wires? Shouldn't thin wire such as home speaker wire or something similar do the same job as the Monster Cable that some people are using? We're not carrying huge current, just looking for a better path to ground. If I'm wrong, please educate me! ;)

Andy

Originally posted by andygold
In reguards to all these different gauged wires that I-Clubbers are using...If all we are trying to do is to improve upon the faulty/painted grounds that the car arrives with, then why are we using such large gauge wires? Shouldn't thin wire such as home speaker wire or something similar do the same job as the Monster Cable that some people are using? We're not carrying huge current, just looking for a better path to ground. If I'm wrong, please educate me! ;)

Andy

If you are replacing major ground points then a heavy gauge would be best.. That is that it would be the path with least resistance and no problems with it burning out.. But with that said.. all the parts that you are adding wires to are already grounded so there is no big worry..

It seems that all the wires are doing is messing with noise under the hood.. Until someone starts actualy doing some testing with Scopes & meters there will be no real way to tell whats being changed

My plan is to get some 0 and 2 gauge wire and replace the stock grounds and alternator wires.. And go and redo the major ground strap points with dieletric grease..

First off, yes I must be lazy. Has this information been homologated & summarized in a more concise manner than these 13 pages? If so, please point me in the right direction. :)

VV

Using heavy gauge ground wires is important because they carry the combined current of many electrical loads back to the battery.

A Subaru mechanic told me that Subaru knows that their cars have electrical deficiencies but won't admit it publicly due to potential recall costs. In addition to bad/poor grounds, the wire sizes are too small, the alternator is inadequate at idle and low speeds, sensor wiring is not adequately shielded, the battery should be upgraded, some sensors' qaulity is poor, electrical noise interferes with sensor signals and the ECU. All of the preceeding affect the car's performance.

Don't use dielectric grease on any of the metal surfaces being connected to each other as it will interfere with electrical conductivity. Put it over the connected parts to protect them from corrosion. Prepare the metal surfaces which are to be connected together by making sure they are completely clean and dry and, if you want to improve conductivity, use a CONDUCTIVE compound sucha as Kopr-Kote, on those surfaces. Kopr-Kote is also anti-corrosion protection.

Originally posted by VSOP


If you are replacing major ground points then a heavy gauge would be best.. That is that it would be the path with least resistance and no problems with it burning out.. But with that said.. all the parts that you are adding wires to are already grounded so there is no big worry..

It seems that all the wires are doing is messing with noise under the hood.. Until someone starts actualy doing some testing with Scopes & meters there will be no real way to tell whats being changed

My plan is to get some 0 and 2 gauge wire and replace the stock grounds and alternator wires.. And go and redo the major ground strap points with dieletric grease..

Originally posted by WizardBlackWRX
You apply dielectric grease to the inside of a spark plug wire before you put it on the plug. This would be a "before" method.


OK, I asked the 'guru'. Without discussing any details I posed the following question:

Given two choices when making a compression type connection--applying grease *after* assembly (on the outside only as a seal), or *before*, to the mating surfaces (as well as around the outside)--which would you say is better for initial and also long-term conductivity?

This is the response I received:

Applying grease to the mating surfaces of connectors before assembly may
lower initial conductivity by an insignificant amount, but maintain long-term
conductivity by inhibiting oxidation of the connection.

Granted, this is only one technician--but he is about the smartest person I've ever met. I've never known him to be wrong.

I will continue to search for a definitive answer.

That is correct sir!

I wasn't going to bring it up again since I have no additional info to share but the portion of the above post by "Black 2002 WRX" that is in italics was originally posted by yours truly, SAJohnson

I still believe it to be true.

Originally posted by Automaton

Don't use dielectric grease on any of the metal surfaces being connected to each other as it will interfere with electrical conductivity. Put it over the connected parts to protect them from corrosion. Prepare the metal surfaces which are to be connected together by making sure they are completely clean and dry and, if you want to improve conductivity, use a CONDUCTIVE compound sucha as Kopr-Kote, on those surfaces. Kopr-Kote is also anti-corrosion protection.



You are 100% wrong! about not putting dielectric grease in between electrical connections.

I am not saying that Kopr-Kote will not work (I have never seen it before) but you need to put something in the connection. Here is a link to what Kopr-Kote is used for.
http://www.jetlube.com/NewFiles/eng.html

From what I can see it is an anti siezing compound.

Why not use something that is recomended for electrical connections.

The statement:



"Originally posted by WizardBlackWRX

Applying grease to the mating surfaces of connectors before assembly may lower initial conductivity by an insignificant amount, but maintain long-term conductivity by inhibiting oxidation of the connection. ",

is contradictory. Anything which "may lower initial conductivity" is bad for an electrical connection. This is not rocket science, logical thinking leads to the conclusion that the integrity of the connection is best when first made and that anything that interferes with it, or doesn't enhance it, is inferior. It is illogical to expect that a connection with "lower initial conductivity" will improve. The anti-oxidant qualities of the dielectric grease will also ensure that the less than optimal conductivity of the connection is maintained. If someone wants to use dielectric grease on the electrically conductive surfaces being connected, then go ahead and waste your effort to improve the electrical performance of your car and possibly worsen it.

As well, Kopr-Kote is an electrically conductive anti-sieze compound used in the electrical industry for bolting together high current electrical bus bars. It is also used on the threads of electrical conduit to maintain electrical conductivity and prevent oxidation in explosion-proof installations. Alternatively, other electrically conductive compounds which contain either copper or silver could be used.

Whereas:
http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?f_call=get_item&item_no=22058

If it's designed for light bulb sockets, might one assume that it's not something that would impede a good metal-to-metal electrical connection ... like a ground?

The light bulb socket application of dielectric grease was addressed in an earlier post I made to this thread.

As well, think carefully about the use of that dielectric grease. It is used on the NON-CONDUCTIVE ignition parts to prevent them from deteriorating because a dielectric is non-conductive. If the grease were conductive, it would cause ignition system problems.

If a dielectric is an electrical conductor then someone should get busy proving it and, when they do, they will win the Nobel Peace Prize in Physics.

Read the product info, it clearly states "Prevents voltage leakage around any electrical connection" which indicates that it is
NON-CONDUCTIVE.

PERMATEX® Dielectric Tune-up Grease

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protects electrical connections and wiring from salt, dirt and corrosion. Extends the life of bulb sockets. Prevents voltage leakage around any electrical connection. Also prevents spark plugs from fusing to boots. Required for modern high energy ignition systems.

It also mentions battery terminals. What about them?:confused:

Dielectric grease on the battery terminal connections AFTER the cables have been properly connected.

Originally posted by Automaton
The statement:



"Originally posted by WizardBlackWRX

Applying grease to the mating surfaces of connectors before assembly may lower initial conductivity by an insignificant amount, but maintain long-term conductivity by inhibiting oxidation of the connection. ",

is contradictory. Anything which "may lower initial conductivity" is bad for an electrical connection. This is not rocket science, logical thinking leads to the conclusion that the integrity of the connection is best when first made and that anything that interferes with it, or doesn't enhance it, is inferior. It is illogical to expect that a connection with "lower initial conductivity" will improve. The anti-oxidant qualities of the dielectric grease will also ensure that the less than optimal conductivity of the connection is maintained. If someone wants to use dielectric grease on the electrically conductive surfaces being connected, then go ahead and waste your effort to improve the electrical performance of your car and possibly worsen it.

As well, Kopr-Kote is an electrically conductive anti-sieze compound used in the electrical industry for bolting together high current electrical bus bars. It is also used on the threads of electrical conduit to maintain electrical conductivity and prevent oxidation in explosion-proof installations. Alternatively, other electrically conductive compounds which contain either copper or silver could be used.

actually....there's nothing wrong w/wizardblackwrx quote....what he quoted is true....he did state that it will lower conductivity(which is true), but the amount it which it lower is INSIGNIFICANT.

in this case, let's assume for argument that w/o dielectric, your connection yields a .001 ohms...but w/dielectric, your resistance is now up to .01(ten times greater).....but it is still small enough to where it's not going to make a difference in the end design
in this case, it's true, the sacrifice in less conductivity is INSIGNIFICANT

however, if the dielectric raises your impedance to some astronomical value, then yes, it would be counter intuitive

in any design, there's a give and take factor, you just have to find the correct comprimise......what's more important? how much of a sacrifice can you make before the something fails? etc. etc. etc.

in this case, you sacrafice an insignificant amout of conductivity for longevity...and that's the purpose of a dielectric

There is nothing inuitive about this, just facts and logic. Why would anyone want to compromise the electrical conductivity? As well, corrosion would occur because of moisture and contaminants attacking the connection from the outside, not inside the electrical connection unless the connection of parts was initially improperly made; that's why the dielectric grease goes on the OUTSIDE, not inside.

OK, I've got a lot of experience using dielectric grease to waterproof the electrics on Enduro bikes - telephone wiring too!. You apply it to the insides of the connectors liberally (yes, you could use it on battery terminals too) then push them together, then pack the connection with grease too (at least for waterproofing purposes). It does not significantly interfere with conductivity as it is largely squeezed out of areas where metal contacts metal.

Now, I doubt it will help your system in the short term, but the long-term effect is the inhibition of corrosion and inhibition of moisture entering the connection. It also inhibits arcing across spaces where metal doesn't quite touch metal. While this may inhibit a tiny amount of conduction across the connection, this arcing can lead to corrosion and electrical frequency interference (noise) in the system. This stuff is also sometimes used in telephony network wiring for all of the same reasons (especially noise) - though "icky-pick" is more commonly used for waterproofing and corrosion prevention in these systems. You don't see any drop in power after applying the dielectric grease.

All that being said, I didn't use it when I did my grounding mod - it just isn't necessary IMHO. The connections just won't be exposed to a lot of moisture where they're located. If I did one underneath the car, I'd certainly pack it with grease.

Also, I just thought of this. With the ground, plain grease should work fine and have most of the benefits (save arc protection). It doesn't really matter that it's non-conducting since all of the ground wires and connections are exposed anyway. I've always used it on connectors so that you can tie all the connectors together and pack the whole thing with grease with out worrying about shorts. With the ground it doesn't really matter. While I disagree with the rest of WizardBlack's post, he's right that a highly conductive grease could be used. I doubt it would help much though - if you scrape the paint underneath the connectors, you'll get a good metal to metal contact. It would still do the job of inhibiting corrosion and moisture - both detrimental to electrical conductivity.

Chris

edit: just realized that I wholly agree with WizardBlack's post, it's Automoton's that I disagree with except about the conductive grease. Scary that I actually agreed with that guy on something - better re-check my logic! :rolleyes:

I wish dielectric grease could cure stupidity too!

Get out and do something instead of sitting around theorizing and calling people stupid. Dielectric grease is used in all forms of motorsport where water is a potential problems. Enduro, X-Country, Hare and Hound, and rally-raid/dessert bikes, Rally, rally-raid and dessert trucks and cars, etc. etc. It is also used anyplace electrical connections are exposed to moisture. It's not like somebody just pulled this out of their ass. You're so worried about tiny, barely measurable voltage drops that you don't even realize the major long-term effects moisture and corrosion have on the electrical system of your car. Oh, sorry, I forgot, you don't even have a Subie to experiment on! :monkey:

Originally posted by Automaton
I wish dielectric grease could cure stupidity too!

Automaton, I think it is time you admit that you were wrong and to prove it this is what I am going to do for you. I am going to run out to the store and buy some dielectric grease. I am then going to apply it to the ends of a voltmeter and test how much the resistance changes. I will also try to find a rusted screw or something similar and test the resistance through the corrosion. We will then show you how much the insugnificant initial drop will protect you in the long run.

Originally posted by chmoorewrx


All that being said, I didn't use it when I did my grounding mod - it just isn't necessary IMHO. The connections just won't be exposed to a lot of moisture where they're located. If I did one underneath the car, I'd certainly pack it with grease.

Chris

If you removed paint and have any bare metal you really should use something, it can not hurt.

Cool your Jets guys, it's just a little grease...:D

Nothing to get your knickers in a bungee over!!!:lol:

Let's not forget, The Grounding Mod works with or without grease...;)
(how well and how long seems to be the topic of debate)

That being said,
Chill Out!!!:lol: :) ;) :D

I did have a new 2002 Impreza TS for which I received a refund from Subaru after I proved that the Impreza's electrical system is poorly designed and unable to charge the battery while the car is at idle or low speed and the electrical loads used during mid-winter or mid-summer are on (voltage dropped to as low as 11.5V). Subaru couldn't refute the proof because the Subaru district service manager, who has over 40 years automotive mechanic experience, witnessed the measurements during a test drive. They also couldn't fix it and admitted that all the automatic transmission equipped Impreza TS had the same problem (I think they ALL have this problem).

Anyway, this topic is getting ridiculous. This thread started out with trying to solve the Subaru's hesitation problem through improving the car's electrical grounding. Anything that interferes with the electrical system's ability to conduct electricity, no matter how small, is a potential problem. I do have the qualifications to back up my assertions which, indicated by the ridiculous ignorance of what I have read here, others don't have. At the least, read the dictionary definition of dielectric. If you still aren't convinced then go ahead and use the dielectric grease inside and outside your electrical connections but it would be better if you just use it on the outside to cover or encapsulate the clean and dry electrical connections.

A good intellectual discussion is good for the soul! Of course calling some of the people around here intellectual may be stretching things a bit.....

That last point is a good one, but the connections are bare metal anyway, so it probably doesn't matter. I did think of it though - the truth is I just couldn't lay my hands on my tube of di' grease when I did mine!

Since dielectric grease is an anti-oxidant, it would be a great anti-aging cream to smear all over one's body, especially the face which shows aging the most (my unqualified opinion).

Yes, yes, we've all heard how you got a refund on your Subie becasue EVERYTHING was wrong with it. How Subarus are poorly designed and poorly built by a poorly managed, unethical company, but you're just waiting for the new model year to buy one. Still don't quite get that....call me stupid or crazy but good design and good build is just something I look for in a new car.

The point is, and you would know this if you knew anything about what you're talking about, that the small spaces inside where moisture gets trapped and causes corrosion is the problem. The outside can corrode quite badly, but as long as the innards are in good shape, the connection will be just fine. You don't want whatever tiny amount of conductivity you might get from arcing across small spaces - a lot of noise and corrosion potential for a very tiny gain.

I'd be willing to bet that Prodrive packs the connections under the hood of the WRC cars in the same manner I described. It's just standard practice for any electrics that might be exposed to water. Ever work on a boat motor? Dielectric grease is very common. Either every professional (heck amateur too - it's the first thing they tell you if you ask about prepping an Enduro bike) off-road and aquatic racing team in the world is wrong or you are Automoton. Not to mention all sorts of manufacturers of electrical devices that could be exposed to rain or surf.

From the Clymer 1991-1994 Honda CBR600 service manual:

"When reconnecting electrical connectors, pack them in dielectric grease compound. Dielectric grease is especially formulated for sealing and waterproofing ellectrical connectors and will not (their italics, not mine) interfere with current flow through the electrical connectors. Use only this compound or an equivalent designed for this specific purpose. Do not use a substitute that may interfere with the current flow within an electrical connector. Do not use silicone sealant.
After cleaning both the male and female connecters, make sure they are thoroughly dry. Using this (sic) dielectric compound, pack the interior of one of the connectors prior to connecting the two connector halves. On multi-pin connectors pack the males side and on single-wire connectors pack the female side. Use a good-size glob so that it will squish out when the two halves are pushed together. For best results, the compound should fill the entire inner area of the connector. On Multi-pin connectors, also pack the backside of both the male and female side with the compound to prevent moisture from entering the connector. After the connector is fully packed, wipe the exterior of all excess compound.
Get in the practice of cleaning and sealing all electrical connectors every time they are unplugged. This may prevent a breakdown on the road and also save you time when troubleshooting a circuit."

That was the first few paragraphs of the electrical system chapter. My KDX200 XR200, Honda Civic, Honda CRX, Craftsman Lawnmower and Isuzu Amigo service manuals all contain similar, but less thorough, advice.

Who looks stupid now?

That's all I have to say about that.

This is way off topic for this thread but, read the latest J.D. Power report about how "great" Subaru is. Seems that I am not the only one who had problems. As well, read the rest of the threads on this board about warranty denials, transmission problems, and on and on. Why would I give Subaru another chance? It is because I hope the 2003 Impreza will be improved over the 2002 model; am I being foolish?

SAJohnson, sorry I didn't respond earlier as this thread is long, but I was going to post to correct whoever quoted me that I quoted you. :)

Anyhoo, the conductivity thing is RELATIVE. Everything will conduct electricity to some point. Look it up in your physics book. When you make an electrical connection (spark plug to boot or battery wire to terminal) you have two kinds of connections taking place:

metal to metal
metal to air to metal

Over time this will turn into three

metal to metal
corroded metal to corroded metal
metal to air to metal

The air will let the metal corrode, which will get into the metal to metal portion and decrease the overall conductivity of the connection. Using grease turns the two connections into

metal to metal
metal to grease to metal

The conduction of electrons occurs over the metal to metal portion (almost completely). The grease is there simply to stop the microgaps from allowing corrosion to occur and long term reduction in the area of metal to metal contact. If you don't believe me, take the windshield wiper motor's electrical connector off. You will see grease inside the connector. That is what that stuff is for. The mere act of pushing the connectors together will push the grease out of the way of the areas that will become metal to metal, primarily. On an atomic level, you will still get at a minimum, a few atomic layers of grease between the metal contacts in many areas, wherein before it was merely AIR. The electrons can still travel between them easily.

When the dielectric grease is between the conductor surfaces, it makes a capacitor. Capacitors are not conductors. This is getting tedious, I wish someone else with a bonafide physics, electrical or electronic background would take over and teach this stuff here.

Read the info at this link:

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci211945,00.html

Do some of your own research too.

oh man 14 pages:eek:
yawn...
http://www.jvlnet.com/~halls/auto/wrx/xground/wrx_ground.html

any one looking for the easy way, start some where near pg.10

Wow.. I bring up dieletric grease and everyone goes crazy..

All I was saying is that all the stock ground straps (which I'm not using any new wire) I'm going to remove and clean the surface with some metal sand paper, then Use some conductive cleaning spary that I use when setting up studio equipment(Its just a spray that cleans/preps the surface) then put the strap back and cover the connection with grease And bolt down..

And I'm also replacing the main wires in the power system with a higher grade. Most cars come with really crappy wires connecting the alternator and battery/fuse system

ok...
not taking in to account the metal content or composition...
steel/anti-oxident/steel hypothetically could be considered a cap...
however it sounds like more of a bi-polar cap.
and will only be "hi-impedance" if there was frequency involved.
the microscopic layer of "low-conductive" materal is so minor it realy isn't an issue.
when we tighten the connections down it squishes the exces out... it isn't like we have a gap & a meidum between the two surfaces...
The G-mod works.
The Anti-oxident helps maintain connection quality.
we arent dealing with rockets & atom smashing...
It is "good enough" & works (look at people who buy Dodge products:lol: )
sorry I don't have any real answers I'm not well schooled only self taught.:devil: honest

I am not self-taught and anything that reduces conductivity at any frequency is a potential problem. Don't forget that sensor and other non-DC signals of various frequencies are also flowing through the electrical system.

To add to Automaton's comment: if you have current flowing with no frequency , you have DC by definition. This metal /dialectric/ metal capacitor arrangement that I've been reading about will then become an open circuit (EE101). Therefore, find a grease that is conductive and you have no conductivity problem :)

OIC. Y'all are smarter than the engineers who design the things. Though they do know that DC has a frequency of zero.

Org.Post by Automaton "anything that reduces conductivity at any frequency is a potential problem."

yes this is true...
In WI they love to dump salt here in the winter... granted any crosion would be minimal but any thing left un-checked would go bad...
here is another fun fact...
I took my junkie set of tester leads,set my meter to highest sesnitivity & zeroed my meter...
dipped the leads in my bottle of "Nolox"...
yup the stuff is pretty nonconductive...
BUT if I touched the leads directly together and pressed my meter would return to 0.
I did this on a cheep meter... I will run it on my fluke & amprobe meters when I get time...
nomatter what the turn out is can we agree that a microscopic layer of goo has little or NO effect on the outcome of the desired results?

To CHMOOREWRX:

And your point is.......?:lol:

FINALLY, someone who knows what they are talking about!

"To add to Automaton's comment: if you have current flowing with no frequency , you have DC by definition. This metal /dialectric/ metal capacitor arrangement that I've been reading about will then become an open circuit (EE101). Therefore, find a grease that is conductive and you have no conductivity problem"

And to the following:

"nomatter what the turn out is can we agree that a microscopic layer of goo has little or NO effect on the outcome of the desired results?"

No, I cannot agree. Even a microscopic layer of goo is not desirable. No dielectric goo between the parts that are to be connected together is better than any. The desired result is to have the best possible electrically conductive connection.

OK, why do all major car makers use dielectric grease to pack electrical connections? I believe all - Toyota, Honda, BMW, VW, Subaru, Ford, GM and Dodge all do. Plus bike makers Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha and Ducati. Lemme guess, 'cause they don't know as much as you do, right Atomaton?

As far as the best possible connection, is that today, or over a period of years?

BTW GLWagon, you, of course, got the expected result. Your instrument probably just isn't sensitive enough. There was probably SOME change. I doubt your Fluke will pick it up either I don't know what model it is, but mine isn't that sensitive. You're looking for extremely small effects - the metal-to-metal contact is just too strong in relation.

If you want to talk EFI, dielectrics are PROVEN to reduce noise in bad connections. If you're looking for a real engineer, you've found one in this department. I hold a Master of Engineering in Telecommunications. RF communications are my specialty. Poor connections are extremely noisy due to arcing across the connection and RF ingress at the break. Now, I've always been under the impression that basic DC communications are used from sensors back to the ECU. E.g. if x current is present on wire y, then z condition is present. Surely they're not using analog RF communications across the car's common power system. What a FUGLY RF environment! I wouldn't even attempt it without digital spread-spectrum. I've put telephone lines across barbed-wire, but a car's power system just wouldn't work! F1 cars use optical links for communications in the car because of this (well, probably security too - those guys are paranoid!).

Anyhoo, in RF communications, dielectric grease is used to "quiet" noisy connections by preventing arcing and RF ingress. There's even a Telcordia (Bell Labs/Bellcore) standard on it (you know, the guys who have more patents to their name than any other company and designed the communications gear you use to talk to this forum?). Don't ask me to look it up - those things are a nightmare! Give me a lower noise floor any day - much better than trying to turn up the power!

Chmoorewrx, you are correct that Subaru, at least, doesn't know what good electrical design is and I proved it to them; consequently, a refund.

You obviously got poor marks in your training about resistance, reactance and impedance, otherwise you would not make the ignorant comments you do. You are a good example of the Peter Principle. We should all be thankful you didn't become a neurologist because you would have really messed up. I suspect you would have put dielectric grease on the EEG electrodes too. Good enough just ain't good enough.

Automaton:

I've got to hand it to you, you don't give up easily!:p

Let's say for the sake of the longest arguement in the history of the i-club, that dielectric grease does reduce *initial* conductivity to some degree. What would you have us do--make all connections 'dry', then disconnect and clean all connections periodically and then reassemble them and apply more grease?

I would like to point out that we do both agree that *conductive* surface compound like "Kopr-Shield" or "Kopr-Kote" are ideal in this application.

I had a chance today to check my WRX's electrical system for noise.

What I found is that there are periodic pulses of anywhere between 1-2 V(p-p) up to about 8.8V(p-p)!

I used a Tektronix digital 'scope set to AC coupling, 2V/division, and 1 micro sec./division.

The pulses were <1micro sec. and did not appear to have any pattern. Increasing rpm seemed to decrease their amplitude.

For reference, the noise without the engine running was <1/2 volt, maybe 200-400mV p-p.

sajohnson,

I would like you to measure and record the engine rpm, and the DC voltage, current of your electrical system under increasing electrical load, up to and including all available loads, at idle then increase engine RPM until the voltage is 14 VDC. If you can't measure the current, the voltages and rpm will suffice. When I did this with the 2002 Impreza TS I owned, I found that the electrical system is inadequate for the car.

alrighty then...
what solinoid (sp?) or relays would be randomly cycling causing spikes...
(I say this only because of the amount of voltage created when the magnetic feild colapses and if you say it doesn't happen then you havent made a "shock box" have you:devil: )
How much of a spike is acceptible to the ecu...one would think that there would be filtration & regulation on the board of the ecu, but that would be a happy world:rolleyes: .
I definatelty am not puting regulators under the dash... but a cap or two here & there on constant power leads wouldn't bother me.
But realy...at what point are we entering the point of diminishing returns?

did the car ever stop running?
was the battery ever completly discharged (deep cycle) and damaged?
what on the TS wasn't working...
stereo? wipers? engine management? horn? starter?
I relize that it may not be puting out the ideal 13.8-14.4v
but if the car had 99% functionality how i sthat a problem?
I supose the 1% is at idle when the blower motor slows slighty, head lights dim slightly...
I could see a posible problem in bumper to bumper trafic for hours on end...
You should be honored that the factory would give you a performance part (underdriven pully) right from the factory at no extra charge:lol:

In the case of Automoton's car I would guess everything stopped working. If you look
A car's electrical system is an extremely noisy environment. That's just a fact of life.

Automoton has been presented with advice from electrical engineers, examples of standard automotive industry practice, and even experimental evidence. He is by his own admission self-taught. He uses his feeble knowledge to try to support a theory that has no basis in real-world data. He keeps looking for a complicated engineering solution, when really the answer is quite simple. He is bitter at Subaru, and even when they are following standard engineering practice, he says that they are incompetent. He has no idea why these engineering practices are used, rather falling back to EE101 concepts of resistance, capacitance and conductivity. The fact is that engineering electrical systems that last is far more complicated.

The real-world FACTS are as follows:

1. Packing electrical connectors with dielectric grease is standard industry practice. EVERY major manufacturer does this. This practice extends to all vehicles - motorcycles, airplanes and spacecraft to name a few.

2. This practice is used to eliminate corrosion and keep moisture out of the connection, thus keeping a consistent, trouble free connection for the life of the vehicle.

3. The voltage drop when using dielectric grease to pack connectors is negligible due to the overriding strength of the metal-to-metal connection. While this is common knowledge, you have also been presented with experimental data in this forum.

4. Dielectric grease has proven its value in other industries. I've cited the telecom industry but dielectric grease is used in many applications for the same purposes.

5. Re-packing connectors with dielectric grease after they've been disconnected is standard industry practice when performing maintenance - ask any certified mechanic.

Call me all the names you want, the fact is you have been presented evidence against a theory you really know little about. You are really up against the entire automotive industry and the collective engineering genius of the engineers employed in this industry. If you really think you know more than them then you are delusional and may be in need of psychiatric assistance.

I will waste no more words on this close-minded fool.

GLwagon, I appreciate some of your humour. The electrical system problem was serious enough that Subaru admitted that they couldn't/wouldn't fix the Impreza's electrical system deficiency and offered to refund the purchase price immediately after I proved the problem. They admitted that the problem was endemic to all Impreza models with the automatic transmission and may even affect those with manual transmissions. I would rather have had Subaru fix the car instead of dodging the issue with a refund. I am certain they bought back my car because it was cheaper than issuing a recall and fixing the problem for me and everyone else. Subaru had a recall recently and replaced all the alternators on Legacy models because of potential alternator failure. Maybe, with enough pressure, Subaru will do the same for the Impreza. I find it very difficult to understand why anyone who has paid out a lot of money for a supposedly good quality and reliable car would tolerate dimming lights, slowed down wipers, slowed down fan, underperforming air conditioning, engine performance problems, potential starting problems, potential dead battery, etc. when they could be remedied with an alternator which could put out adequate voltage and current at low rpm. I also cannot understand why Subaru hasn't improved the quality of grounding in the Impreza especially since so many Impreza owners have proven that the grounds were poorly installed and may even be undersized to the point of needing supplementary grounding.

Being sentimental about a car is foolish. Criticism of Subaru deficiencies is a good thing because it may eventually cause improvements. Nothing improves without critically examining weakness as well as strengths. Ralph Nader in the U.S. and Phil Edmonston in Canada helped every car owner through hounding the car manufacturers and governments to improve vehicles. If anyone wants to accept crap that's their business but I won't. Subaru would probably love it if I would just shut up, as I am sure some others who sell or own Subarus would, but I won't until Subaru remedies the Impreza's electrical defects.

OK just a couple more words. If you look at Auto's other posts in these forums, you will see that this supposed electrical defect was far from the only defect present in his car. Lessee, the motor was supposedly in crooked......oh fuggit. This guy's a bitter fool who is so utterly stupid that he can't wait to buy another car from this company that he says designs very poor cars, builds them extremely poorly, and is unethical in its public dealings. Would buying a product from a company you think these things about be a rational decision taken by an intelligent and sane person? No.

chmoorewrx, you haven't presented any credible facts. I am not self-taught but, as you stated, you are. Standard automotive industry practises are notorious. The telephone industry is irrelevant to automobile performance unless you mean the effects of a driver talking on a celll phone in a moving car. Your are so obtuse.

As a electrical connector guy, grease or lubricants can be quite beneficial to improving electrical connections. However, this can only be the case with proper "normal force". Normal force is the pressure exerted at the metal to metal interface. The lubricants are normally *not* conductive and do not need to be as explained below. The type of lubricant should be a type recommended for electrical connections so as not to introduce an additional chemical reaction. What do the instruction say on the container?!?

In any electrical separable connection the metal contact area is made up microscopic contact areas. Contact lubricants are "squeezed" out of those areas. That (actual) area remains the same for a given normal force irregardless of the shape of the contacts! (Like pressing a sponge on the kitchen counter.) Soft metals have greater contact area for a given normal force than hard metals. A contact lubricant prevents external contaminants from penetrating the (microscopic) voids surrounding the contact areas & thereby prevents corrosion or dirt from interferring with those contact areas.

So, as long as you are tightening the botls with enough torque, the contact lubricant improves the longevity of the connection.

come on now... keep it nice.
I deal with real world problems...
this "looks good on paper" garbage is not reality...
(look at some archtect's plans for buildings...garbage)
yes you can get realy close on paper but in the end it needs to usually be adjusted...
Grease-yes
Underdriven alt in auto- bad but it works
Alt in manual - good (why???)
because when I drive stick the rpm's never get below 1750-2000rpm I dont lug the engine down it doesn't feel right.
in an auto the rpm's can drop considerbly into the "idle" range very easly (yes I have had an auto Subaru)
each its own...
?Isn't this the G-mod thread?:confused: :lol:

Has anyone checked a car as sajohnson has, but on one without the grounding mod?

I have had concerns (& expressed them early in this thread) about applying the grounding mod to points on the car where an electrical connection of any quality already exists ... such as though the car body ... and is prolly everywhere!!

Adding point to point wires of sufficient guage undoubtedly improves DC and AC connection to those areas. However, for AC signals of any frequency you are inherently creating a ground loop. Ground loops are a notorious source of noise. AC signals are those where any kind of switching occurs whether it is with slow relays, electronics (like the ECU), or audio to RF.

When I had the Impreza, I installed a #4 AWG from the negative terminal of the battery to the driver's side manifold and another to a driver's side strut bolt. The electrical noise I had coming through the radio was eliminated.

Not a surprise, ground loops do not *always* create detectable problems. More interestingly, what was the clue to do that? Or, was it just luck?

I did the testing you requested (minus the current mesurements) and posted the results above.

I agreed with your position that the stock WRX electrical system is a little weak.

Originally posted by Heepfan1
To add to Automaton's comment: if you have current flowing with no frequency , you have DC by definition. This metal /dialectric/ metal capacitor arrangement that I've been reading about will then become an open circuit (EE101). Therefore, find a grease that is conductive and you have no conductivity problem :)

Nooo!!! It can't be that easy.:lol:

I make my connections with a grease that is conductive. Wouldn't that slove the entire problem of worrying about conductivity and corrosion.

Very good point. It never occured to me to mention it myself.;)

Originally posted by Automaton
I am not self-taught and anything that reduces conductivity at any frequency is a potential problem. Don't forget that sensor and other non-DC signals of various frequencies are also flowing through the electrical system.

Let's also not forget that it is suspected that the miniscule variations in voltage that are causing the problem in the first place.

It isn't possible that the alt's output is causing the stumbling problem is it? Mine occurs at a fairly high RPM (lick GL Wagon said).

I have the gauge package in my car and the voltmeter measures at least a volt less while at idle. How accurate are the Subaru gauges?

Why are some having luck with the grounding mod for only a short time? Could it have something to do with the ECU adapting to whatever changes were made?

Ray

Originally posted by Rumplestilzchen
I have the gauge package in my car and the voltmeter measures at least a volt less while at idle. How accurate are the Subaru gauges?

Why are some having luck with the grounding mod for only a short time? Could it have something to do with the ECU adapting to whatever changes were made?
At idle the alternator output is less, pretty typical for any vehicle. Voltmeter output will drop to that of the battery under load ... if the alternator's output drops off enough. But, I doubt it goes that low. Quick check; what is indicated on the voltmeter with key in "on" before the engine is started; what is indicated after the engine is started & idleing?

I haven't monitored this thread for a while, but has the location of the other end of the wire attached to the approx. middle of the firewall been determined? I *only* have a suspicion that it runs to the ECU. If it does and some are lifting the wire intentionally or inadvertantly to attach an additional wire apart of the grounding mod, then maybe that is resetting the ECU? *That* could easily be felt by the butt dynos. Just asking ..:confused:

"The fix" lasts until the ECU finds itself again. Of course there is broad range of issues getting "fixed" with the grounding mod. Some problems *must* be permately taken care of.

The problems with forums is that is difficult to create an easily accessed central table with which to reference. So we end up with "the never ending story" obscuring actual facts. I can't find the forest for the trees!?!? :confused: :confused:

To see an actual example of automobile electrical corrosion and tarnish repair done by someone go to:
http://www.intelab.com/swem/gastight.htm#Deoxit%20D5

You will read that he uses a CONDUCTIVE anti-corrosive paste, NOT a dielectric grease.

I quote:

"The last area of concern is the spade terminal connections to the fuseblock of 122s (or just about anywhere else for that matter!). In both of these cases, the GTJ strategy applies...but since we can't solder these connections, a different implementation is needed. Simple! It is just a dab of anti-corrosive** paste (not to be confused with insulating dielectric grease), on all of the spade terminals and fuse ends after clean-up to protect and prevent new corrosion. (If loose, a slight squeeze with a pliers will restore good spring action to the terminal on the wire.)"

I now rest my case in favour of using conductive anti-corrosion paste to enable and enhance electrical connections with or without the use of dielectric grease on top of the tightened electrical connection.

The problem with the Impreza I had was that the alternator voltage dropped "that low" to 11.5VDC and occassionally lower. It would be interesting to have a Subaru electrical measurement event at a Meet and post the results.

Originally posted by jlw
At idle the alternator output is less, pretty typical for any vehicle. Voltmeter output will drop to that of the battery under load ... if the alternator's output drops off enough. But, I doubt it goes that low. Quick check; what is indicated on the voltmeter with key in "on" before the engine is started; what is indicated after the engine is started & idleing?

I haven't monitored this thread for a while, but has the location of the other end of the wire attached to the approx. middle of the firewall been determined? I *only* have a suspicion that it runs to the ECU. If it does and some are lifting the wire intentionally or inadvertantly to attach an additional wire apart of the grounding mod, then maybe that is resetting the ECU? *That* could easily be felt by the butt dynos. Just asking ..:confused:

"The fix" lasts until the ECU finds itself again. Of course there is broad range of issues getting "fixed" with the grounding mod. Some problems *must* be permately taken care of.

The problems with forums is that is difficult to create an easily accessed central table with which to reference. So we end up with "the never ending story" obscuring actual facts. I can't find the forest for the trees!?!? :confused: :confused:

Originally posted by Automaton
The problem with the Impreza I had was that the alternator voltage dropped "that low" to 11.5VDC and occassionally lower. It would be interesting to have a Subaru electrical measurement event at a Meet and post the results.



This should be intresting.. when I go to pick up my car i'm going to take my multimeter and plug it into the lighter socket and take some readings before I Sign the papers for the car...

I'll see if I can find my datalogging one and bring that on the test drive.. (Only thing is thats its been MIA for a while, its either in a box somewhere or a friend borrowed and never returned it)...


Either way I will not buy the car if the alternator cause the car to run off the battery..

What is the make and model number of your datalogging multimeter. I would like to get one if it isn't too expensive. As well, I think the 2002 Legacy has a higher output alternator than the one in the Impreza.

Its a fluke 189, but its just under $400...
I got it cheaper with a student discount..
But its so expensive because it has internal datalogging, There are external units that can be connected through the serial port on some fluke models

I have a couple of older Flukes, before the datalogging capabilities. They are high quality and rugged. $400. is a bit steep for me. I am thinking of building my own multiple input datalogging device as an add-on for my laptop. I could write the program to do the datalogging and use a spreadsheet for analysis.

If all you need is to measure AC/DC voltage and on occasion current you can buy Radioshack meter with data logging capability (serial port to pc) for < $70.

Originally posted by Automaton
To see an actual example of automobile electrical corrosion and tarnish repair done by someone go to:
http://www.intelab.com/swem/gastight.htm#Deoxit%20D5

You will read that he uses a CONDUCTIVE anti-corrosive paste, NOT a dielectric grease.

I quote:

"The last area of concern is the spade terminal connections to the fuseblock of 122s (or just about anywhere else for that matter!). In both of these cases, the GTJ strategy applies...but since we can't solder these connections, a different implementation is needed. Simple! It is just a dab of anti-corrosive** paste (not to be confused with insulating dielectric grease), on all of the spade terminals and fuse ends after clean-up to protect and prevent new corrosion. (If loose, a slight squeeze with a pliers will restore good spring action to the terminal on the wire.)"

I now rest my case in favour of using conductive anti-corrosion paste to enable and enhance electrical connections with or without the use of dielectric grease on top of the tightened electrical connection. I read the article & followed the links. I used "edit->find" searching for the word "conductive" ... it is not there! Additionally I drilled into his references (only one worked) and all products mentioned are non-conductive. They are cleaners and corrosion preventive agents.

The subject of the article does appear to be about cleaning contacts and prevention of corrosion. It is full of psuedo-science. For example, soldering to gold as he mentions in the article is asking for trouble. Just as any gold to tin contact is. Gold & tin migrate over time to form a thin non-conductive compound. Causes one to think about all of those "Monster Cables" with gold "low noise" terminations doesn't it. What is the likelyhood that they are being mated to gold? Most likely it is tin or a tin compund.

He indirectly mentions increasing normal force or contact pressure, "a slight squeeze with a pliers ...". That is good as long as the contacts are not gold plated & you end up scraping off the gold/gold contact area. Gold works with gold and a few other, but definitely not tin/lead solder.

Lastly, the use of a conductive grease/lubricant/paste will result in unreliable electrical connections as there is uncertaintly as to how long it will remain present Of great concern is that it is dangerous where any amount of electrical power is present, i.e. shorts & high resistance.

That guy was battling the "prince of darkness" for control of an ancient Volvo. Who knows what kind of voodoo mojo might work on those old Lucas systems! Chants and incantations are valid diagnostic and repair tools for those crazy things. Some of the Lucas links from that page are pretty funny though.

From one of the links I followed from there:

Recommended procedure before taking on the repair of Lucas equipment:

1. Check position of the stars.
2. Kill a chicken.
3. Walk around your car three times at sunrise chanting, "Oh, mighty prince, protect your unworthy servant . . . "

Good post. You are correct about gold and tin.

Although a conductive, anti-corrosion, surface compound like "KOPR-SHIELD" is appropriate for the grounding mod, I would definitely NOT use it on multi-pin connectors where shorts would be a problem.

I continue to maintain that dielectric grease is better than nothing, and preferable with multi-pin connectors.

I don't agree with your statement that conductive compound should not be used in high power applications. I work for the subway system in D.C. We routinely use "KOPR-SHIELD" on the traction power return conections. These are 1,000MCM cables carrying *thousands* of amps at 750 volts. The connections are subject to some of the worst environmental conditions you will find--heat, cold, vibration, de-icing chemicals, water, etc. This stuff works! I have disassembled connections that were 20 years old and found them clean.

I thought the focus of this thread IS grounding, NOT mult-pin connectors. No one in their right mind would use either Kopr-Shield or dielectric grease on multi-pin connectors' conductive parts. The right product to use is available from: http://www.caig.com/index1.htm Try to stay on topic!


Originally posted by sajohnson
Good post. You are correct about gold and tin.

Although a conductive, anti-corrosion, surface compound like "KOPR-SHIELD" is appropriate for the grounding mod, I would definitely NOT use it on multi-pin connectors where shorts would be a problem.

I continue to maintain that dielectric grease is better than nothing, and preferable with multi-pin connectors.

The links worked for me and the link: http://www.caig.com/index1.htm
is the one to follow for anti-corrosive contact treatment products. That site has technical info about galvanic corrosion, gold contacts, etc.

Originally posted by jlw
I read the article & followed the links. I used "edit->find" searching for the word "conductive" ... it is not there! Additionally I drilled into his references (only one worked) and all products mentioned are non-conductive. They are cleaners and corrosion preventive agents.

The subject of the article does appear to be about cleaning contacts and prevention of corrosion. It is full of psuedo-science. For example, soldering to gold as he mentions in the article is asking for trouble. Just as any gold to tin contact is. Gold & tin migrate over time to form a thin non-conductive compound. Causes one to think about all of those "Monster Cables" with gold "low noise" terminations doesn't it. What is the likelyhood that they are being mated to gold? Most likely it is tin or a tin compund.

He indirectly mentions increasing normal force or contact pressure, "a slight squeeze with a pliers ...". That is good as long as the contacts are not gold plated & you end up scraping off the gold/gold contact area. Gold works with gold and a few other, but definitely not tin/lead solder.

Lastly, the use of a conductive grease/lubricant/paste will result in unreliable electrical connections as there is uncertaintly as to how long it will remain present Of great concern is that it is dangerous where any amount of electrical power is present, i.e. shorts & high resistance.

Perhaps my edit of my previous post will mitigate your wrath.

The reason I mentioned multi-pin connectors is that not everyone here has an electronics background. I would hate for someone to assume from your posts that conductive anti-corrosion compound is the stuff to use with all connections.

SAJOHNSON, I assume you're a transit system electrician. Among my qualifications are: construction and maintenance electrician; industrial electrician; electronics specialist. I am also a member of the IBEW (31 years).

Um, "no one in their right mind would use dielectric grease on multi-pin connectors conductive parts". EVERY major manufacturer packs their non-waterproof multi-pin connectors with dielectric grease. That's just a fact.

So you say. Prove it! Where are the facts? It is unfortunate that your inflated ego, as evidenced here through your need to be right when you are wrong, overwhelms your logic and acceptance of the facts which disprove your exagerated and wrong assertions.


Originally posted by chmoorewrx
Um, "no one in their right mind would use dielectric grease on multi-pin connectors conductive parts". EVERY major manufacturer packs their non-waterproof multi-pin connectors with dielectric grease. That's just a fact.

How about you, chmoorewrx?

Pretty well speechless! The facts come from a representative sample of service manuals from Honda, Toyota, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, BMW, Ford and GM. Sure, that's not ALL, but it does probably cover, what?, 80 or 90% of worldwide auto production? Good chance if these guys are using it, so are the rest. You can go get the manuals yourself - I already quoted one word for word on the subject.

Your statements are hearsay because you have not provided the traceable source references. As well, you are now adding qualifiers such as: "representative sample", "probably" and "good chance", to the outrageous assertions and claims you previously posted. You continue to demonstrate and prove your incompetence.


Originally posted by chmoorewrx
Pretty well speechless! The facts come from a representative sample of service manuals from Honda, Toyota, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, BMW, Ford and GM. Sure, that's not ALL, but it does probably cover, what?, 80 or 90% of worldwide auto production? Good chance if these guys are using it, so are the rest. You can go get the manuals yourself - I already quoted one word for word on the subject.

There we are--BACK ON TOPIC!!

After a multi-page detour, we have reurned to the original topic:

************THE GROUNDING MOD****************

We do have some unfinished business, such as:

* Has anyone tried installing (or uninstalling) one wire at a time and then checking performance/driveability?

I just installed 5 wires at once, noticed a major improvement and left it alone.

* Has anyone checked to see if the noise riding on the 14VDC supply is affected by the extra grounds?

I will check this next week at work where I have access to a digital 'scope. In addition I intend to install a capacitor to filter out some of the noise spikes. I will report any changes in the noise and driveability.

* Has anyone simply cleaned the factory ground connections and reinstalled them using conductive surface compound?

I did this but unfortunately it was at the same time I added the 5 extra gnd. wires.

* ANY OTHER IDEAS WELCOME!

Finally this thread can get on with its founding topic.

SAJOHNSON, thanks for going ahead with your investigations. I am looking forward to what you discover particularly anything about what happens at hesitation. Try to determine the sources of the AC riding on the DC supply.


Quoted from one of SAJOHNSON's previous posts to this thread:

"Noise Riding On 12VDC Supply!

I had a chance today to check my WRX's electrical system for noise.

What I found is that there are periodic pulses of anywhere between 1-2 V(p-p) up to about 8.8V(p-p)!

I used a Tektronix digital 'scope set to AC coupling, 2V/division, and 1 micro sec./division.

The pulses were <1micro sec. and did not appear to have any pattern. Increasing rpm seemed to decrease their amplitude.

For reference, the noise without the engine running was <1/2 volt, maybe 200-400mV p-p."

sajohnson ... what problems are you experiencing? Sorry to ask at this point as I am sure you must have stated them earlier, but I cannot find them.

I think one of the concerns is a stumbel/hesitation. I vaguely remember someone else commenting about an acceleration "dip" at some high rev. Stumble implies to me low engine RPMs. Hesitation implies high engine RPM.

a) my thought (to get me to shut up & off this issue) is to first re-work the one connection on the center of the firewall by itself.

My assumption is that by lifting the original wire coming from parts unknown, but might be the ECU, could be resetting the ECU. How to prove that? Without the wiring diagram for the car, I don't know. Perhaps a OBD-2 device can indicate a reset has occured. Otherwise, how do you know.

I have the hesitation or an acceleration dip at slightly over 5K. I have not had it dyno-ed, but do have a date on 7/12 at TurboXS. If you check out http://www.turboxs.com/ & follow "NEW! STAGE 4 Package! Click Here", the 1st dyno curve of "a" stock WRX shows a torque dip at about 5K. I am assuming that is what mine will look like. I have harassed my dealer to harrass SOA ... no movement there as yet. I spoke to Mark at TuboXS & he indicated that he sees that & worse on many stock WRXs; but, not on all. I asked about improving the grounding system ... he did not feel it worthwhile.

For *facts* about electrical connections, go to http://www.connectorconsultants.com/Apex/Connector_Consultants_papers.htm will lead you to papers written by fellows that have worked in the same building (!?!?!?) and specializing on these issues longer than automaton has been in the IBEW.

Look at the info at this URL: http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/oct2000/techtotech.htm
for a brief explanation of measuring electrical noise in automobiles. There are other interesting automotive tech articles on that site as well.

JLW, there is no information on that website about electrical connections which is directly relevant to what we are discussing in this thread.

I remember you asking about the ground wire on the firewall below the IC in an earlier post. I have the SOA WRX electrical shop manual (as well as 'General' and 'Engine'). I had meant to check out where the other end of that wire goes but I got sidetracked. I will try to figure it out.

I did clean that connection and used KOPR-SHIELD during assembly. Unfortunately, I did the rest of the mod at that time, so I'm not sure what actually cured the full-accel. hesitation.

Stumble and hesitation are subjective terms that may mean different things to different people. To me, either can occur at any rpm. A stumble might be compared to a temporary misfire (roughness). Hesitation is more like a dip in the power curve (as if you lifted the trottle some while accelerating).

I still notice a stumble during moderate acceleration. The grounding mod seemed to eliminate any hesitation during hard acceleration though.

As I said above, I'm now curious about the 'ringing' type of noise spikes riding on the DC. If anyone else has access to a 'scope please check your vehicle and others for comparison. It may not be a problem, but 8-9vp-p seems excessive.

Originally posted by Automaton
JLW, there is no information on that website about electrical connections which is directly relevant to what we are discussing in this thread. It is relevant and your earlier insistance for facts is the reason I am responding to this. It will take you time & possibly some money to understand facts on a complex topic. They are consultants & won't give out too much for free! You will have to approach them for more detail. There is no better source of information on seperable or permanent interconnects for any application than that group of consultants. Check out the bios. Or are you no longer interested and the attitude is, "don't confuse the issue with facts"? :confused:

sajohnson ... I wonder how you routed your ground mod wires? And what guage? I think I remember you saying you used something large. If the mod was added in a star configuration from the neg. battery term, then the wires might be long & not touching anything inbetween?
Long runs are inductive and offer resistance to high freqs. They also act as antennas picking up noise. If that is the case, then maybe tying the wires down (temporarily to test) to anything metallic (engine, fender, etc.) at several points along their length ought to at least make a change. Prolly best done while watching your scope.

It would be very useful to know what frequency range or bandwidth the noise is. That could indicate the source. I wonder if your scope has the ability to capture the noise for download to a computer? I've done "forensic" analysis in the past & even had generally useful results! It can take awhile at times to understand what we know!

Just to clarify, even though Mark at TurboXS was less than enthusiastic about the ground mod. It does not mean that it is no good. It means that they haven't looked into it. I don't want to imply more than there is!

Originally posted by Automaton
GLwagon, I appreciate some of your humour. The electrical system problem was serious enough that Subaru admitted that they couldn't/wouldn't fix the Impreza's electrical system deficiency and offered to refund the purchase price immediately after I proved the problem. .

Automaton, If you were as persistant with Subaru about your problem as you are on this thread I would assume that they figured giving you your money back was better then listening to you any longer. I sure as hell know that is what I would do if I were in their shoes.

It's obvious that no matter how many engineers, specialists or even God tells you and proves to you that using dielectric grease in an electrical connection is the right thing to do you will not agree. I feel sorry for people like you that can not admit they were wrong as to something so minor as this.

Anyway I was curious of two things. First off why do you still follow the NA Subaru Imprezza OWNERS Board when you not only don't own one but seem to hate them so bad. And secondly I am curious as to what car you purchased as a replacement for the Impreza?

Originally posted by Rumplestilzchen

Why are some having luck with the grounding mod for only a short time? Could it have something to do with the ECU adapting to whatever changes were made?

Ray

Whoever has had luck with this mod for only a short time did you use something (dielectric or otherwise) to protect the connections? If not it could be corrosion.

JLW,

I did thoroughly review the references on that website you directed me to. They have nothing to do directly with this topic. As well, most of the publications are quite old and are probably outdated. I think that empirical study of the hesitation and/or stumbling problem(s) and their possible relationship to the electrical system is where our effort should be focused. So let's just put all the other stuff behind us and move forward on finding the source(s) of and solution(s) to the problem(s).

Black 2002 WRX,

You need all the help you can get.

jlw:

I believe when this all began, I posted a picture(s) showing how I routed the wires. I used (5) 12 guage wires with THHN insulation. They all terminate at a copper terminal on the neg. battery terminal. I used ring terminals on the ends and Kopr-Shield on all connections. I also cleaned all factory grounds that I could see and used Kopr-Shield on them as well. The wires are connected as follows:

* One on each strut tower
* One on each existing factory gnd. on either side of the manifold
* One to the existing gnd. point on the firewall

I have no idea as to whether there is a preferable way to route the wires.

It is possible as you suggested that the wires are the source of some or all of the noise. I guess the next test will be to disconnect them at the battery and check again with the 'scope.

The noise I saw looks like 'ringing' and total duration is about 1/2 micro sec. It is a typical ringing waveform with each subsequent spike or cycle significantly smaller than the preceeding one. There are maybe 6 cycles before the spike blends into the background noise.

The Tek Scope is a (xx)720A. It is a portable digital storage 'scope and does have an RS232 port for connection to a computer. I was all set to do just that and installed the Tektronics software that came with the 'scope, only to find out that it was some sort of non-functioning demo. :( Any ideas?

Automaton ... I did say that they are consultants. So don't think that they would actually something immediately useful away! But, fair enough.

sajohnson ... I love the net, I hate the net; I will investigate to see what I can come up with. There is the "dark" side of the net where everything can be found, just not very easily. A quick check of the tek website has brought up a bunch of references in other languages, doh! :eek: :eek: :mad:

SAJOHNSON,

You can get extremely well-qualified answers to any electrical/electronic automotive questions from Jeff Bach. He is the owner of CRT Auto Electronics, an ASA-member shop in Batavia, Ohio. He is published in AutoInc Magazine.
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/autoinc.htm
http://www.autoinc.org/


CRT Auto Electronics
390 South Riverside Drive
Batavia, Ohio 45103
Phone: 513-732-3965
Fax: 513-732-9632
Email: bachj@choice.net

His web site is at http://www.currentprobe.com.

sajohnson ... go to ths700 (http://www.tek.com/Measurement/cgi-bin/framed.pl?Document=/Measurement/Support/scopes/software/&FrameSet=oscilloscopes). There is a section on "THS Oscilloscopes" that i think you have. I can only read through the stuff, but did read thsimage.zip which looked like one to start with. For the advanced, read "desperate", there is tekfft12.zip.

tekfft12.zip is a dos program (not sure I remember what those are!) that sounds like it would do the time domain to freq domain transform. It could also be just smoke & mirrors for another way to get frustrated.

thsimage.zip uses windows terminal to grab images from the scope. Getting that to work may well be cause for celebration! But, it will give you something to show to others that may be able to interpret it. That might be you though. Assuming that this scheme works, get a reference plot on your computer & then start experimenting with one thing at a time. A poor man's storage scope! Well, maybe ... do you know what it cost?

Thanks for the link. Guess I could've thought of that myself! I asked them to contact me. It looks like the WaveStar software is not a free download though. Any idea where I might get it (or something similar) for free?

The 'scope isn't mine, and I can't see buying software that I won't have much, if any, oportunity to use.

I just noticed that WaveStar comes with a 30 day demo. Now if I could only get it to download...:(

OK, it's downloaded to my computer. Now, if I can just copy it to CD and install it at work...(we don't have Internet access at work).

I just did this, it was a well-spent $34. Acceleration feels much smoother.

Well, it wasn't night and day, but I did notice some difference in acceleration--definitely more linear.

I used 8-gauge THHN cable from Home Depot (6 feet at .18/ft) and 8-gauge terminals from Best Buy (2 pair at $5/pair). Total was around $6.

I made two connections:

1. One from the negative battery terminal to the driver's side intake manifold ground

2. One from the negative battery terminal to the driver's strut bolt

I recommend this mod for anyone looking to smooth out their acceleration. It's also a LOT cheaper than the HKS Earth Ground System.

people have been complaining that ground mod is not what's remedying the jerky motion or smoothing out the acceleration but it's rather a ecu reset. I did the ground mod three days ago and it surely has helped tremendously. People say that after three weeks similar symptom will come back.... I will have to wait and see.

Hi,
I was reading through this thread, but after noticing it has over 15 pages, I decided to ask.
My WRX has only about 800 miles and it has a rough idle. I have not noticed the accelaration jerks or hessitation, but I'm going to start looking for it tomorrow. Will this mod help with rough idle? It really feels like it has a missing engine mount!! :eek:

Thanks for helping a new subby owner :)
Dennis

Originally posted by mightbewrx
Hi,
I was reading through this thread, but after noticing it has over 15 pages, I decided to ask.
My WRX has only about 800 miles and it has a rough idle. I have not noticed the accelaration jerks or hessitation, but I'm going to start looking for it tomorrow. Will this mod help with rough idle? It really feels like it has a missing engine mount!! :eek:

Thanks for helping a new subby owner :)
Dennis
Hey Dennis, I have a little over 1500 miles and I DID notice a difference with the mod. It wasn't night and day, but it was noticeable. The acceleration from 3-5K feels more smooth and linear.

Originally posted by sajohnson
OK, it's downloaded to my computer. Now, if I can just copy it to CD and install it at work...(we don't have Internet access at work).

Have you had a chance to take any further noise measurements?

I have access to a Fluke 867B, and could take some measurements on the stock ground system, at least for noise. What points were you measuring between?

I didn't have time to read this entire thread, but out of curiousity, has anyone tried the grounding mod with flat ground braids instead of just heavy gauge wire?

There is actually a reason besides cost why most automakers use ground braid instead of round wire for their major grounds. Any round wire acts as an inductor at certain frequencies and will let the high frequency "noise" pass through the wire. A flat braid has much lower inductance, though, and filters out high frequency noise. Also, since all of the current in a wire is carried in the outer skin, a decent size braid has the same current-carrying capacity as a pretty large wire.

It might be worth a try as an experiment. The only disadvantage to the braids is that they corrode faster than insulated wire. But you can use the same crimp-lug connectors on the ends as you would use on a round wire.

So in the end, this issue of grounding is still inconclusive... :lol:

Why not use a accelerometer with data logging and small sampling rate to determine the differences in acceleration? This would clear any subjectivenes to results. I would propose a fixed (fixed meaning you do not change it's position throughout the testing) accelerometer like the new generation G-Tech with data logging at the smallest sampling size. A few baseline runs with no mods, a few runs with a reset ECU and a few runs with the grounding mod and reset ecu. Then convet the data to charts like acceleration vs rpm's. The charts will tell the story. I have a AP-22 performance meter and could do it but I have very little time. If anyone is interested I could help developing a test plan

I have done this grounding mod on my Australian delivered MY00 WRX and it has done nothing :) Well, slight difference - my car idled at 14.2-14.3V before and now it idles at 14.3-14.4V

Mind you though, I did not have any aforementioned stuttering/hesitation/bad-idle problems so in a sense there wasn't any problems to fix - I just wanted better overall grounding.

It might just be the quirks of the standard ECU - I noticed slight hesitations when I still had the standard ECU, I've been running an Autronic ECU for a year now and haven't noticed anything since it was fitted.

My setup:
8ga cable from -ve terminal on batter to distributor block
4ga cable from distributor block to -
#LHS strut tower
#RHS strut tower
#Intake manifold
#Ground bolt under driver's side dash

http://www.modacar.com/products/Acura/Integra/GROUNDK/

Take a look at this page. They have a "A'PEXi Super Ground System". Does anyone think this would actually work to remove the "Noise Problem" our subarus seem to have?

Oh and some more reading for your plesure if you like;

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701019477&highlight=earth+grounding

i dont think i will do that, and even if it did, you can either make one for cheap, or check ebay for cheap (but good) one also. there is one guy selling wrx grounding kit designed for your car on there too :D
Shane

Just some more info I found;

"Concept of Earth Grounding System
On a normal system, electric current flows from a positive terminal to a negative terminal through the car body. But there are much resistance at connectors of body, engine and transmission. The resistance disturbs this flow of electricity to a degree that electrical components such as computer, lamp and spark plugs cannot perform at their peaks. In order to get the highest performance out of any automobile, it is necessary to achieve a maximum electricity flow with the least resistance along its electrical circuit.
In short, a grounding system does to your electrical circuit like a high performance intake & exhaust system does for the gas. We believe such system is the basic of all tune-up if you want to unleash the maximum performance of your car.

Voltage (V) Current (A) Resistance (Ohms)
Battery Measurable
Quantity Measurable
Quantity Whole Electrical
Equipment Body Body Amount
Ratio
No Ground 14.2 13.1 9.4 1.51 1.39 0.12 7.7%
Ground 14.2 14.2 10.2 1.39 1.30 0.00 -


While making sure that the operational circumstance is the same, the above table indicates a 7.7% of total resistance which originates from the car body & the same 7.7% of battery voltage which is being wasted due to the absence of a grounding system.


What does the Earth Grounding System do?
EGS can achieve an extreme improvement on electricity flow and stability by providing a direct ground path from the body, chassis and engine components to the battery negative.

What's its history?
This theory has been known & such system has been used among Japanese WRC (World Rally Championship) racing teams for years. Since 2000, it has become the hottest modification performed by car enthusiasts in Japan. Its effect on automobile has been proven by dyno tests again and again. 1st image: an increase of torque from 3500 rev. 35kg to 4800 rev. 40.9kg (see upper line). 2nd image: an increase of horsepower from 280ps to 305.9ps (see upper line).


What benefits does it provide?
Faster engine start-up :
You can feel the difference even with A/C on and at maximum fan speed. This system reduces the loss of electricity to nearly zero at ignition coil and produces better ignition spark. This oscillograph indicates how voltage resistance drops at start-up with the EGS installed (right pic.).
More stable idling :
You will hear your car engine noise quieter than before. This oscillograph shows the minimized resistance resulting from the installation of the EGS. Note the smaller waves & lower trace in the right pic.
Smoother and faster throttle response
The upper green lines in both charts below has the Earth Grounding System installed. They indicate a higher torque & horsepower gain. Car used for this dyno test was a Lancer Evolution VI. A max. horsepower gain of 5hp and up has been achieved on a Honda Integra TypeR.
Increase low & middle engine torque
It helps to achieve a close-to-perfect combustion at low or high revolution of engine, resulting in faster acceleration. A max. torque gain of 0.5kg-m and up has been achieved on a Subaru Legacy BH5.
Top image: Red line = no ground / green line = with gound / blue line = with ground + muffler silencer removed. Bottom image: This is done on a Honda Integra Type R. Actual effectiveness varies by vehicle and personal drivability.
Better milage
In particular city driving. So this system does not just save you money on gas, but very ecological, too. One test even shows an MPG increase of up to 22% on a 1800c.c. test car.
Better CPU operation :
Cleaner exhaust gas :
Lower density of HC and CO.
Brighter headlight output :
Improvement that you can see. Thanks to a better alternator performance.
Improve car audio sound quality :
Improvement that you can hear. Thanks to an overall enhanced equipment performance including but not limited to: Car audio, power windows, power sunroof, etc.
How good is Hyper Ground System?
Sun's Hyper Ground System enables ultimate maximum flow of electricity by using the best wire & connectors that are available. These vital components must have durability against high voltage use while providing minimal resistance. They have 10 times less impedance than factory ground systems resulting in immaculate conduction to prevent electrical power loss. This system uses thick gauge 99.99% pure copper wire and connects directly from the cylinder head and other points under the hood to the battery to provide an ultra low resistance connection. Fabricated in Japan."

http://www.sigmaautomotive.com:8080/EGS/egs.asp

I think the cable they use for this groudning kit would help with any addition noise problems due to the route of the cable!

yea, that is about what everybody says about the grounding kits. as for the wire they use, yea, it does have some extra sheilding, but you wont notice a difference between that and some ol 10ga wire from home depot. i would build it your self.
Shane

Humm, thats funny. I'm a cable whole saler and importer (http://www.computercablestore.com) and I can pretty much guarentee you that the sheilding will make a diffrence. Since it seems our cars have a noise problem as is this would defintly be a good way to reduce it. You might have to replace all the stock grounds as well (since there would be noise induced through them as well). But hey what ever floats your boat. Just trying to help.

P.S. By no means did I mean to suggest that anyone buy those kits for such rediculous prices. But I'm sure I could source the wire (directly from china) for a very cheap price!

Not that anyones cares about this mod anymore, but I tried it this weekend out of sheer bordem.

I picked up three 4-gauge battery cables at PepBoys. It was like $11 total.

I wired both grounds on the intake manifold and the drivers side strut tower back to the negetive battery terminal.

At first I thought this helped and gave me a stronger idle... but after a weekend I pretty sure it hasn't done jack.

My $.02

http://members.cox.net/alandang/groundmod.JPG

Umm they are daisy chained. That will create problems?

nope, it should be fine
Shane
www.paranoidfabrications.com

Welding cable is great for making these wires. Cheap, flexible, tough.

Don

Heya guys, I know this is an old request, but I'm making it again because it seems like some of the old pictures have been taken down. Can someone post some pics of the grounding mods (wires in parallel?), and it would be even better if it is for an N/a engine.

Thanks in advance

Wow it looks like no one has checked this post in a long time so i guess i probably won't be getting a response but its worth a try. I just bought a 2005 wrx it only has 1000 miles on it. On full throttle in 1st or 2nd and sometimes third gear it has a terrible hesitation, someone compared it to a mis and thats what it feels like to me. Its very jerky and not smooth at all, im very disappointed with it because it feels literally like crap. I tried doing the grounding mod with 1 12guage wire from the neg battery to the drivers side manifold and nothing happened. has anyone taken their car to Subaru for this problem? DId they fix it? THe car accelerates like CRAP.

If you have a brand new 05 and it feels that bad when accelerating, just take it back to the dealer and have them look at it. There may be something wrong that needs to be corrected.

I agree, thats what a warranty is for. Just bring it in. They'll find it. a miss or something like that is easy to diagnose with an OBDII car.

Wow it looks like no one has checked this post in a long time so i guess i probably won't be getting a response but its worth a try. I just bought a 2005 wrx it only has 1000 miles on it. On full throttle in 1st or 2nd and sometimes third gear it has a terrible hesitation, someone compared it to a mis and thats what it feels like to me. Its very jerky and not smooth at all, im very disappointed with it because it feels literally like crap. I tried doing the grounding mod with 1 12guage wire from the neg battery to the drivers side manifold and nothing happened. has anyone taken their car to Subaru for this problem? DId they fix it? THe car accelerates like CRAP.

I haven't done this mod, but I'm thinking about it... My car (MY05) bogs a bit under 3k, and then it really surges until about 4k. Not sure if that's normal. What's a "mis?"

I took my WRX into the dealership yesterday to get some work done but I couldn't get the hesitation/stutter to happen with the mechanic in the passenger seat so I guess I'll have to try the grounding mod.. Seems silly that I should have to fix the problem on my own..

Oh, does a miss refer to bad timing/misfiring/etc? How can one diagnose timing issues without going to a dealer, shop, or dyno? Would the UTEC or AccessPort help? I've read about them a little bit, but I'm not sure if they'd be beneficial (in general). As you can tell, I'm pretty new to car tuning. :D

This is what I found but not sure will it helps:

I have a turbo timer tapped on the power wire going into ECU, with the key turned to ON but without actually starting the car, voltage monitor showed 12.58v steady, then I connected the battery negative to strut tower without turning the key off, voltage monitor showed 12.74v steady. Whatever that means...

I did the grounding mod this past weekend and it doesn't seem to have made any difference. Used 8 AWG stranded wire soldered into copper lugs. Daisy chained one from passenger strut tower to rear passenger manifold ground point. All others (front passenger manifold ground and driver's strut tower are direct. Any other ideas...? :confused:

TIA

What did you expect.

btw - good thinking msun. Real quantatative info. Next ? is whether it actually makes a difference in how the electronics behave.

I'm of the opinion that its snake oil. Harmless, but useless. All though I do not have any data to support that. Just opinion

Don

Just compleated my grounding mod and I did feel a diffrence, car desn't stutter as much as before. Also I did notice teh injectors a tid bit quieter. But I bet you foo's didn't think of running a wire through your strut brace! I'm glad I did it looks so clean. Oh and before I get flamed for drilling into my Strut bar, it's only a $25 Ebay Sti "clone" bar, so it really doesn't matter to me.
I ran a 8 gauge wire from negative battery terminal to passenger strut then from there to passenger fender and intake. Then another 8 gauge wire from neg terminal to driver side intake. I think I'll add 1 more here soon to the firewall.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/03wrxwagon/19Sep040172.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/03wrxwagon/19Sep040162.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/03wrxwagon/19Sep040202.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/03wrxwagon/19Sep040222.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v393/03wrxwagon/19Sep040232.jpg

I hope you folks are scraping the paint away when you do these grounds... otherwise you just have pretty cables that don't conduct much. The one in the post above with the strut tower bar doesn't seem to be making any contact there. Remember, the studs sticking up from the strut assembly are anchored in rubber, not metal.

would this mod make much of a difference on a 2.5L motor?

I hope you folks are scraping the paint away when you do these grounds... otherwise you just have pretty cables that don't conduct much. The one in the post above with the strut tower bar doesn't seem to be making any contact there. Remember, the studs sticking up from the strut assembly are anchored in rubber, not metal.


....and THIS has been MY point all along.....the strut top studs are just about the WORST possible grounding points and I believe that MANY people who use them get poor results and then say that the 'grounding mod' does not work......

People are too damned lemming.....

Grounding will make a difference on any motor with crappy stock grounds, or any motor that is getting old and the stock points are wearing out.

EDIT: While you can buy a new strut bar from EBAY for $50 with shipping, drilling one of those isn't going to warrant a replacement.. From the looks of those knockoffs the strut mounting bracket would bend under heavy load before the bars would really get any weight on them. So I doubt drilling holes in the bars is going to matter. :devil:

....and THIS has been MY point all along.....the strut top studs are just about the WORST possible grounding points and I believe that MANY people who use them get poor results and then say that the 'grounding mod' does not work......

People are too damned lemming.....

Actually this I do know. Tis why I didn't run one to drivers side. The passenger side works as a ceterpoint from which i run my other wires from. I do however need to run a wire to the firewall.

My comment was general, rather than specific to an individual, in nature.... but is still is amazing to me that so many people can be lemming'd into making the same stupid mistake time and time again and the bloody bleeding logic of it is so bloody bleeding simple.

My comment was general, rather than specific to an individual, in nature.... but is still is amazing to me that so many people can be lemming'd into making the same stupid mistake time and time again and the bloody bleeding logic of it is so bloody bleeding simple.

Aye , that it is. Someday we'll all be as smart as you (j/k) , but until then keep up the good fight Uncle Scotty! :lol:

I know this is an old posting, however, people still don't seem to understand what the groudning mod does... as an EE student here at UCSD perhaps I can shed just a little light on the topic...

The electrical system on your car is a circuit... not unlike a computer circuit... you've got a power supply(battery/alternator) and wires running to and from components supplying them with power. (ie. the ecu, headlights, stereo, fans, or any other electrical component) In an ideal world, the wires running to and from these components would have no resistance and would flow current perfectly, however, this is the real world. Current does not flow through wires with no resistance and one of the purposes of these wires is to try to help the flow of current from the poisitive terminal of the battery to the components of your car and back to the negative terminal thus completing the circuit. Being that this is the real world, the paths that the current flows through and that the components put a load on the circuit (any component that takes power puts a load on the car ie-stereo, headlights-etc.) the path that the current flows is often obstructed by high resistance and heavy load thus making your motor work harder. (This can be analogus to running your a/c: when you turn your a/c on, it activates the compressor which will place a larger load on your engine which will make your car slower)

The same can be said of the alternator- when you turn on your headlights, stereo, windshield wipers, they all place a load on your car which in turn makes it harder for the engine to turn the alternator(with higher resistance comes the need to flow more current to do the same amount of work- compared with a low resistance wire and component which will not require as much current to do the same amount of work) which will infact rob you of precious hp. This in conjunction with the needs of Subaru to keep cost controll under controll (by this i mean Subaru doesn't seem to ground their cars very well because it would infact cost more money) lead to a waste of hp due to bad grounding.

Now- the purpose of the grounding wires. In order to relieve the load placed on the electrical system, you can do one of two things- either don't turn on your headlights/stereo or other electrical systems (this won't do much since the circuit is still full of resistance) or you can try to help the circuit flow better by bypassing the factory chassis ground(not a very efficient way of grounding the electrical systems in your car) by using these wires.

Some tips for the install:

First of all you must have good electrical contact- ie when you do bolt these wires in to place, you must make sure that the ground wires that you are installing are in contact with the metal of the engine/chassis. To do this, you must get rid of the paint underneath the bolts. This will ensure a good electrical contact with the wires.

Secondly it would be wise to coat the outside of the bolt with grease or something like that to make sure that the contacts on the wires and the metal underneath does not become corroded.

Third: make sure that you connect these to the negative (black one) terminal of the battery (not the positive terminal (red one) because this will short out the battery and may cause explosion... not good) (this is also one reason why when you jump start a car you must not connect the battery of the jumper car directly to the dead battery of the car that needs a jump(i've seen people do this all the time)(the battery that needs a jump may be shorted out which will in turn short out the jumper car's battery and may cause damage to the electrical system of the jumper car: you must always go from red to red and then from black on the jumper car to chassis ground of the car that needs a jump - because while the battery may be shorted out, the car's electrical system itself will most likely not be shorted out.)

And for those of you who complain that the mod did not do anything-you may have either been expecting too much or did not properly install the grounding kit (ie. not scraping the paint off or connecting it to points which would not have helped grounding)- while this mod has been shown to give an increase of hp (Apexi super grounding system gave 8 extra hp on a subaru wrx -dyno proven) you probably won't feel it with your butt dyno, and this mod was more of to fix an existing problem -ie the suttering problems around 3.5-5k which I myself had until I installed the Apexi super ground system which smoothed out the stutter, will make your headlights slightly brighter (theoretically-I can't reallly tell but they should be getting better current flow) althought the apexi kit is actually more than just a grounding system and it incorporates capacitors and a few other components to smooth out the DC current output produced by the alternator which helps even more. personally I like this one a lot, however it isn't cheap -180$ but it is well worth it and looks great too!

Anyways I recomend a grounding kit (Apexi super ground system) or just simple heavy gauge stereo wires will do the trick too.

btw I'm not an english major so don't tell me that I can't spell or my grammar sucks I can't write an essay well to save my life and these damn ERC MMW (english/history) GE's will be the end of me... :(

oh yeah and to all the other 20+ wrx owners at UCSD - I salute you and put in a grounding kit!

...I don't believe that putting an additional ELECTRICAL load on the system makes it harder for the alternator to turn, robbing you of precious horsepower. :rolleyes:

I believe the alternator is turning all the time the engine is turning (unlike the a/c compressor which can be on or off). The alternator certainly doesn't speed up when an added electrical load is required.

My understanding of the purpose of the grounding mod is to reduce resistance in the circuit as well as to clean up electrical noise, thereby making it easier for the engine to respond properly to the signals from the ECU, eliminating stumbling and other problems.

I'm not an EE or electrical wizard. I just play one on NASIOC! ;) :p

...I don't believe that putting an additional ELECTRICAL load on the system makes it harder for the alternator to turn, robbing you of precious horsepower. :rolleyes:


It doesn't matter what you believe, it's a fact, the higher the load required from a generator (alternator), the higher the energy input has to be. Conservation of energy. output=input-energy loss. So if your demand on current is higher, the power required to spin the alternater will increase.

And, you can verify this if you have a vacuum/boost gauge. As the electrical load is increased (turning on lights, defogger etc.) you will see a decrease in vacuum as the alternator puts a heavier load on the engine.

Please research before you decide to post what you believe in the future NETWRX... I've been studying EE for 2 years and have a bit of knowledge in the field- I'm pretty sure that if I post something that I know what I'm talking about or I won't post at all. Thanks

"It is better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and confirm the fact"

NETWRX...you could not possibly be more wrong.

NETWRX...you could not possibly be more wrong.


....uuummmm yeah....I guess some peeps never really understand or were taught basic electrical principles...

Just a bit of info. I talked to a shop forman at a Subaru Repair Station about these grounding mods. He said that in his opinion extra ground cables wouldn't make a difference. What would is to make sure that the existing grounds are good. I used sand paper to remove the paint and corrosion on the factory ground points. So far it's been 100 miles and hesitation are not noticable yet. I'll wait till the ECU learnes again.
I also relocated the knock sensor closer to the starter. There was a threaded hole there. That is working well too.

I also relocated the knock sensor closer to the starter. There was a threaded hole there. That is working well too.

how do you know it's working well?

why did you move it in the first place?

:confused:

ken

....uuummmm yeah....I guess some peeps never really understand or were taught basic electrical principles...

Really...have you ever added a BUNCH of lights to....say...a 1994 Toyota truck and flipped them all on at night. The engine WILL kick up as the alternator draws more current. This is all I was saying. Depending upon the alternator as it draws more load this may sap a *few* hp from the engine.

And...yes....during the course of life I have learned a few things about electricity.

But thats OK because I am gonna make sure to add my grounding wires to my strut tops...that way I can be sure to get the best ground possible.... :p

....a big alternator running lots of stuff may take 10-15hp to turn....we used to get the alternators off the old pig cars 'cuz they were extra HD....and yes....I've had to wire in whole extra fuse panels for radio's and lights and stereo's....I even ran a whole home stereo system with a Teac reel-to-reel, and 12" Cerwin Vega's in the back of a Dodge van...black lights and all....;)

reel to reel, eh scotty?

you're dating yourself! ;)

a large portion of the members on this site don't even know what a CASSETTE is! :lol:

I doubt those same people have a clue what TEAC used to be....funny part is that is all I used to buy! That and Marantz.

Mitsubishi dual monaural amp, too :eek: ;)

oh yeah? well i build tube amps... and i even listen to them. :lol:

...tubes....cool....er warm ;)....I'd love to have some of my old audio junk back(not the speakers, though....well the Klipsch's, I guess).....If I only knew...:rolleyes:

how do you know it's working well?

why did you move it in the first place?

:confused:

ken

Well Ken,

I did the ravensblade mod with two resistors. The hesitation went away completely, but the car pinged under load. I took the mod off and the car still ran fine. The only thing changed in the process was the position of the knock sensor. I tried to see if that was it so I moved it around and the problem came back. That's it I thought. So I tried different positions and the car ran different but still not right. Then I read some where that technitians were having good luck relocating the sensor so I tried, and may be coincidence but no more hesitation. I cleaned the grounding points before the relocation and that did not make a lot of difference. I did reset the ECU after the relocation.

well at least you have a reason! ;)

i only ask because the knock sensor is obviously a very critical part of the EMS's ability to keep your engine in working order, and modifying it should not be taken lightly. if the ECU still seems able and willing to pull timing around knock prone areas, then i'd say it's working, which is the bottom line.

ken

I ran a 10 guage wire from the neg terminal to the top of the passenger sied strut tower. off of that I ran a wire to the front driver side head, intake mifold, and next to the alternator. I didnt notice any difference though. My car has always had a problem accelerating. the rpm's would increase a few hundred rpm, pause, go up a few more, pause from about 3k on up. going up hills it has a big problem and barely will accelerate. If I take off the grounding wires I put on and just run two (one to the strut tower and one to the intake manifold) and have them both go directly to the battery, would this help? I know this thread has been dead for a while, but I just thought I'd ask

A grounding mod either does:
1) nothing
2) some smoothing of idle

Other than that, even the vendors don't say its a power mod.

If your car "has a problem accelerating". Why not bring it to the dealer. Its got a 60K mile warranty.

Don

I was trying to avoid taking it to the dealership because its my only way to get to work, but I might have to take it there and have them look at it, and then bring it back when they are ready to work on it...not the best way to start out with a new car (new for me atleast)

I had an interesting grounding experience, ending doing 7 grounding points. Didn't like how it worked, removed 3 of them. Now I'm going to add one more the the alternator bolt to see how that works.

My only problem is the increased electrical noise accompanying my engine revs. I've read a lot of this thread and I haven't found much info on it yet. Hopefully, when I totally remove my wires from the passenger/driver strut towers and the firewall grounding point (behind intercooler) the noise will go away. If it doesn't, maybe someone on here will have answers for me.

Pop,
do a google search on the term "ground loop". and you 'll probably find the cause of your noise

Don

mbasile,
I don't get your logic. What you're fabricating is surely more involved than a simple trip to the dealer. Make your apptment and line up a loaner. Also plan to take a ride with a technician (or better yet, the service manager) to demonstrate this problem. Get him to acknowledge the problem, then leave the car. Take the loaner and have them call you when its fixed. Simple, and easy for you.

Don

mbasile,
I don't get your logic. What you're fabricating is surely more involved than a simple trip to the dealer. Make your apptment and line up a loaner. Also plan to take a ride with a technician (or better yet, the service manager) to demonstrate this problem. Get him to acknowledge the problem, then leave the car. Take the loaner and have them call you when its fixed. Simple, and easy for you.

Don

I did take my car in, got a call about 2 hours later saying they couldnt find anything wrong with it...so I was like "what about that pulsing?" and they were like "oh, ummm, its supposed to do that" When I can, I'm going to make an appoint ment to have a service tech ride with me.

Pop,
do a google search on the term "ground loop". and you 'll probably find the cause of your noise

Thanks Don, that seems to be the problem. Looks like I'm going to have to fashion a bracket, figure out where to mount it, get all new wire, and re-route the connections to that bracket.

Anyone have pictures of their engine bay that show off examples of the single mounting / grounding point method?

I have had engine misfires come up on my car at high RPMs for the last few months. Hence, I have been living with a CEL. I cannot definitely say that I feel the engine misfire or stumble, but apparently the computer can. I suppose adding an extra ground wouldn't take anything but my time to do. Would this have any affect on my engine misfire CEL?

I completed the ground between the intake manifold and the negative terminal on the battery and I think that I can indeed feel a slight difference at high RPMs, smoother I think, but maybe it is just wishful thinking. Now to see if the CEL stays off.

I noticed my 05 had grounds wired to both of the forward intake runners and one to the passenger side fender, do the older WRX's have these?

best cheap mod i ever did, MUCH smoother ride, idle is much smoother, throttle response has increased. All i did was take left over 4 guage wire i had from my old stero system, bought some end peices and went to town. I removed both stock ground wires and replaced them with the 4 guage in the same places, then added a ground to each strunt tower and to both sides of the intake manifold. Its cheap, its easy, and it makes the car run much better. No reason what so ever not to do it. (on a side note the wire under the hood looks awesome for partly engine dress up, i have a WRB car and put in blue wires.)

I just did the grounding mod on my lunch break. Went to Advanced Auto Parts, bought one 20" 4 gauge cable for $3.79, then installed it in the parking lot. I installed the cable from the intake manifold to the neg terminal on the battery. I was only able to get a couple of miles of driving in after, but it really felt like the partial throttle hesitation was gone, no negatives yet... It was so simple and easy....why did I wait so long to do it!

The best ground point is from the block. If you follow the neg cable from the battery it goes to the block. When I did mine I ran 2 0 guage cable from that point to each side of the engine bay to two distribution blocks. From the distribution block I ran 4 guage to the top of the manifold and to the factory ground location on the driver's side. Then on the passenger side distribution block I ran more 4 guage to the alternator bolt, the other factory ground location and another on the top of the intake manifold.
Plus I ran another 0 guage ground line from the same point at the block to the trunk where a light weight battery replaced my ic sprayer resevior. The power side is 0 guage going from the alternator to a battery isolator, then a 100 amp circuit braker to the trunk routed to the battery with another circuit braker 100 amp.

calib17A: I know this is OT but I've been looking for someone who is running dual batteries without issue.

Is this picture a good diagram of how you have your dual battery system wired?
http://skiddog.ca/unrelated/altlayout.JPG

Also are you using the stock ALT for this or did you find someone who can supply a HO alternator?

Thanks!!

I'm not running two batteries, but just using the isolator to connect the alternator to the battery in the trunk so I didn't have to cut the oem ring off. I have the alternator connected to the middle, then battery connected to the top stud and bottom stud is empty. Then grounds all go to the factory location at the block in front of the firewall. I can connect a secondary battery to the bottom one in the future, but I don't want the extra weight.

I just completed the 'grounding mod'. Man, what a difference!

My WRX had a bad stumble or hesitation between 4 and 6,000 rpm even when fully warm. After adding several ground wires the stumble is gone!

I added 5, 12 gauge, THHN ground wires: one to each strut tower, one to each side of the intake, and one to the firewall. The last 3 are existing factory ground points. All 5 wires terminate at a two-piece solid copper lug on the neg. battery terminal. I used "Copper Shield" anti-oxidant on all connections. Also, I found that the factory ground at the firewall was done over painted metal (lame), so I cleaned that up.

wait, you added 5 wires...pics? Seems like a lot of wires spread about in the engine bay.

I only added one wire. Battery terminal to intake manifold. Picked up a 4 gauge (i know, huge right?) 24inch battery cable from autozone and put it on in 10 min . I never expected it work and was skeptical at first - but i figured what the hell, 4 bucks might fix this problem I've had for 3 years...and unbelievably, it did. There is no surge anymore, just straight on power. THANK YOU GROUNDING MOD!!! It really works. :banana:

buddy of mine did this mod this weekend. Way better! Buying my wire tomorrow to do the same. Great mod!

Just figured I would update this thread. I just did this grounding mod on my car and it's absolutely worth it. Smoother idle and much more responsive throttle. Total cost was about $10. Best cheap mod out there, hands down.

Has anyone done this to a 08? I have my grounding kit from my Honda Civic SI I traded in for my WRX. It was made for a SI but looking at the pics I think most of the wires would work.

On my Honda in the 6 years I had it I never had any kind of build up on the battery. I still had the OEM battery in the car after 6 years. It was still testing just fine. I had friends with the same car and not grounding kit. They had build up on their grounds and had gone though at least 1 battery.

most likely the person. there shouldn't be any correlation between grounding kit and gunk build up. if your wires are long enough and terminals match the bolt then use them.

pictures!

just did this to my 03 with nothing but a K&N drop in and snorkel delete

deffffff smoothed out shifting and got rid of the bog down from a 5-10mph

def worth the 10 bucks i spent

Pictures would be greatly appreciated at this point. I want to do this mod but not exactly sure where Im adding or what Im adding. Thanks for the help.

Pictures would be greatly appreciated at this point. I want to do this mod but not exactly sure where Im adding or what Im adding. Thanks for the help.

you didnt READ the thread

did you......

and as long as you dont use the strut top mounting studs as grounds---the arent......you almost cant go wrong unless you try to ground the battery POS to the battery NEG

dont do that :unamused: