Hey Guys,

What are your opinions on the Bilstein PSS9 coilovers? The car is a street car but I plan on running many autox's next year (regional and national) in STU class.

I have never really heard anyone run these in ST* class (except at the El Toro ProSolo where an EVO won the super challenge but didn't really pax so well in regular competition) and didn't find anything in the motorsports topics when I searched.

Do you suspension gurus believe in Bilstein?

The set I found for sale comes with 300/250 spring rates. These seem too soft for autox. Do you think the adjustability will be suitable for higher rates without a revalve? Where do you think I should go with the sping rates on these?

These are single adjustable with adjustments changing both compression and rebound. Is that a serious compromise?

Thanks!

Please call the Bilstein office in San Diego / Poway and ask to talk with Bret Norgaard. He has developed the PSS9 and newer (and much better) PSS10 applications for autocross Subarus, from the GC chassis and earlier WRX sedan and beyond. This is from a product engineer and top-level National caliber autocrosser, so I would listen to what he tells you to do :)

The spring rates change, as does the valving as I recall, neither the 9 or 10 were particularly great about anything other than the Bilstein build quality and quick turn-around time for service work. He's got everything logged and worked out already, so just call him with your setup and he can lay a great baseline for you.

IIRC, revalves are only $65/each and includes shock dyno time, and they are VERY fast, in some cases just days, if they are not busy. I think Dyno alone is only $25, still a fantastic value.

Please call the Bilstein office in San Diego / Poway and ask to talk with Bret Norgaard. He has developed the PSS9 and newer (and much better) PSS10 applications for autocross Subarus, from the GC chassis and earlier WRX sedan and beyond. This is from a product engineer and top-level National caliber autocrosser, so I would listen to what he tells you to do :)

The spring rates change, as does the valving as I recall, neither the 9 or 10 were particularly great about anything other than the Bilstein build quality and quick turn-around time for service work. He's got everything logged and worked out already, so just call him with your setup and he can lay a great baseline for you.

IIRC, revalves are only $65/each and includes shock dyno time, and they are VERY fast, in some cases just days, if they are not busy. I think Dyno alone is only $25, still a fantastic value.

Thanks for the contact. I will surely reach our to Bret.

FWIW Their website says $125 per adjustable shock for a revalve.

Oops, then the $65 may have been for the non-adjustable Monotube....to be honest I have never used their adjustables, only raced on them in other people's cars :) I don't like turning knobs, only steering wheels, when things need to be "adjusted" (read: revalve and forget).

The spring rates change, as does the valving as I recall, neither the 9 or 10 were particularly great about anything other than the Bilstein build quality and quick turn-around time for service work.

Do I read this as, "Bilsteins valving is not particularly great." ?

From what I've heard, they are one of the few firms whose tolerances are actually respectable by motorsports standards.

I guess I need to dyno the shocks and judge for myself though. I am just basing that statement on something someone posted once online.

The off-the-shelf valving on the PSS9 and PSS10 is in no way to be misconstrued to be an autocross or race-specific valving. It is for "street use" and is definitely a compromise valving, what I have been told. That being said, for national-level autocrossing, it is highly recommended that it be revalved for such. That doesn't mean it won't be okay for 90% of people as it comes out of the box however, but YMMV.

As far a product quality etc etc etc I am hard-pressed to find an affordable European-based shock as good as the Bilsteins, I would put them in everything I own or have owned if they made them for them. I really would.

Hey Guys,

What are your opinions on the Bilstein PSS9 coilovers? The car is a street car but I plan on running many autox's next year (regional and national) in STU class.

I have never really heard anyone run these in ST* class (except at the El Toro ProSolo where an EVO won the super challenge but didn't really pax so well in regular competition) and didn't find anything in the motorsports topics when I searched.

Do you suspension gurus believe in Bilstein?

Stock, they sell with 300/250 spring rates. These seem too soft for autox. Do you think the adjustability will be suitable for higher rates without a revalve?

These are single adjustable with adjustments changing both compression and rebound. Is that a serious compromise?

Thanks!Are you thinking of these because of ride quality or budget or something else?

Are you thinking of these because of ride quality or budget or something else?

Because they are not Taiwanese garbage like a lot of the other stuff on the market. Ride quality and quality valving go hand and hand. You can have superior levels of grip from a coilover without sacrificing ride quality. I hope this coilover will provide both better ride quality and better grip than my current set up. Lastly, these are fairly reasonably priced when compared to other "euro" quality coilovers.

Look, I don't want to convince myself these are good. I would really like to hear from people who have experienced them personally.

JamesWilson, you said you have driven on a set of these. Later you endorsed them. What specifically about the ride/handling did you notice when driving on them?

I have them they're great

They're very, very comfortable on the street. Definitely the best track prepared c/o if you're going to drive it on the street also (I live in downtown Washington DC)

Are you sure they're 300/250?

My PSS9's are 440/380 iirc, but I know the newer ones are softer. But still I remember they were like around 400 in the front now.

edit: can't find it but look into the spring rate... that really doesn't sound right

edit edit: here ya go via Z1automotive (where I bought mine heavily discounted. Adam = the man.)... "Spring rates are 400 lbs/inch front, 285 lbs/inch rear."

I also have them on the street they keep the wife from complain too much, quality is top notch i just need to grow a set and start playing with the nobs or find a a guru to school me up some day. I am only 15 min from poway hmm... lol

Although they are a capable street coilover if you're planning on doing track/auto-x and are set on coilover options I'd look at either RCE T2's or the TIC AST units. More spring options with a great range of adjustability to compensate.

Although they are a capable street coilover if you're planning on doing track/auto-x and are set on coilover options I'd look at either RCE T2's or the TIC AST units. More spring options with a great range of adjustability to compensate.

Why???? Objectively what makes them more autox track capable.

Fwiw I have looked at them.

TIC AST's have serious stroke, custom valved and matched to Swift Springs (I believe linear rates as well), and are a nice single adjustable (12 adjustment points) unit. Lot's of R&D went into them that's for sure.

RCE T2's are independent rebound/compression adjustable (near infinite adjustments as no set adjustment points within the range), SS body for corrosion resistance, linear spring rates, multiple spring rate options, custom valved which results in excellent street riding and track/auto-x settings etc... Myles and his crew did a great job on designing these units, which is nice with the limited lifetime warranty.

The PSS9's are progressive spring rates, single adjustable (9 settings) units that are MSRP more expensive than both the T2's and the TIC units. They're good units, very good for street and decent for tracking/auto-x, but I'd go with one of the other units due to the extra features based on price points as well.

Also, because I know ButtDyno is going to ask, have you considered a good strut/spring combination as well?

I have considered just about everything over the past year of so.

So, why don't you tell us why you've singled out the Bilsteins? Easier to agree/disagree with your reasoning when we know what it is ;)

I found a set used for sale. Much more affordable then new TIC or RCE or Ohlins or KW.

So it sounds like you've made your decision.

I'm still on the fence.

I would definitely get in touch with them first and tell them your intentions as far as revalving goes. You're going to run stiffer springs, right? By the time you factor the cost of upgrading the PSS9's in, you might be near the cost of the TiC/AST/KW/RCE stuff.

Oh yeah, and I still love my Koni/GC setup ;)

I see this situation all the time. Its normal for the OP to have a "favorite" choice. Many things can contribute to his or her wanting his favorite. But.I say to the Op: get the Bilsteins, run them and work on driving. All the choices are good, so you cant loose. I personally have had Bilsteins on all of about 15 cars in the last 20 years, except my old 280Z from the mid eighties. Anyway..get the Bilsteins and focus on all the other things you have on your plate like driving, tires, pressure, courses, rules etc. Biggest factor will always be ...YOU.

Lets not obsess over the details. Good drivers are fast no matter what the shock.

So here again....GET THE BILLIES and call it a day. You wont be dissapointed.

Myles

By the time you factor the cost of upgrading the PSS9's in, you might be near the cost of the TiC/AST/KW/RCE stuff.


This is really what I don't want to happen with a used set. In addition to the money, there will be much more time and effort into piecing these together and shipping them out and waiting for revalving.

Lets not obsess over the details. Good drivers are fast no matter what the shock.
+12345 Myles is on the money. You can have the best set-up in the world, but at the end of the day you gotta drive.

Unfortunately, that statement isn't entirely true. I've hit a brick wall with the capabilities of my stock STi shocks. I was fast all year, even trophied in STU at a ProSolo and a National Tour event on the stock shocks, but they are just not fast enough.

Ok, so what's the price on the Bilstein deal you're looking at? Does it include tophats/camber plates? Total rebuild costs (shipping etc)? Easy to see how much money you're truly saving.

Unfortunately, that statement isn't entirely true. I've hit a brick wall with the capabilities of my stock STi shocks. I was fast all year, even trophied in STU at a ProSolo and a National Tour event on the stock shocks, but they are just not fast enough.Hey Myles isn't saying a top driver could win on ANY strut, but they would be fast nonetheless. If Ridgick, Hayter, Fielder, Otis or Paulson jumped into your very ride, do you think they'd go no faster?

IIRC, in '07 an STU driver finished just outside the trophies (maybe 14th) on the stock suspension with camber bolts & swaybars. Brandon Burkhart won 2 years in a row on Teins.

Yeah - Jake stepped into a well prepped STU car at the 10-25 Philly event and beat the car's owner, and was a half second off Corey, finishing above a lot of fast people. I don't think he could have done that in his car with the prep level it's at (IIRC just lowering springs on stock struts). In other words, I think he knows that he has to drive fast :)

Ok, so what's the price on the Bilstein deal you're looking at? Does it include tophats/camber plates? Total rebuild costs (shipping etc)? Easy to see how much money you're truly saving.
+1 I'm looking to run in STX in 2010, and I've heard there's a PSS9/PSS10 system for the RX-8.

Hey Myles isn't saying a top driver could win on ANY strut, but they would be fast nonetheless. If Ridgick, Hayter, Fielder, Otis or Paulson jumped into your very ride, do you think they'd go no faster?


They are all great drivers, but honestly I don't know.

What I do know is I need coilovers and I don't want to have serious regrets mid-season.

Well this is the Bilstein PSS9 coilover system for the RX-8:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/sonicyellowrx/Bilstein1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/sonicyellowrx/Bilstein2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/sonicyellowrx/Bilstein4.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/sonicyellowrx/Bilstein5.jpg

The quality looks great and RX-8 owners with them only have very +ve things to say. These run about $1,400.00 or so from shox.com (applications for the WRX/STI can be obtained from here as well).

The RX-8 PSS9 rates are 370+145lb/in helper spring front and 375-445lb/in progressive rear which an owner obtained from a call to the Bilstein office.

P.S. Jake, I wasn't doubting your driving abilities. It sounds like you're ready to make the step-up to coilovers. Good luck finding the right set. :)

Unfortunately, that statement isn't entirely true. I've hit a brick wall with the capabilities of my stock STi shocks. I was fast all year, even trophied in STU at a ProSolo and a National Tour event on the stock shocks, but they are just not fast enough.

i sent you a pm.

edited.

meh wrx pss9's

http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm169/silverf4turbo/IMG_0191.jpg

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/7602/photo1te4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Interesting 2-spring design. I guess this qualifies as progressive spring even though it looks like a linear spring paired with a helper spring/tender spring

Quality is really pretty spectacular

Yeah - Jake stepped into a well prepped STU car at the 10-25 Philly event and beat the car's owner, and was a half second off Corey, finishing above a lot of fast people. I don't think he could have done that in his car with the prep level it's at (IIRC just lowering springs on stock struts). In other words, I think he knows that he has to drive fast :)

somebody beat me to posting this:D
Jake, prepping your car for top level STU will be different that prepping for track days, which direction do want to go in?

Hey Guys,

What are your opinions on the Bilstein PSS9 coilovers? The car is a street car but I plan on running many autox's next year (regional and national) in STU class.

I have never really heard anyone run these in ST* class (except at the El Toro ProSolo where an EVO won the super challenge but didn't really pax so well in regular competition) and didn't find anything in the motorsports topics when I searched.

Do you suspension gurus believe in Bilstein?

Stock, they sell with 300/250 spring rates. These seem too soft for autox. Do you think the adjustability will be suitable for higher rates without a revalve?

These are single adjustable with adjustments changing both compression and rebound. Is that a serious compromise?

Thanks!

I think I can answer some of your questions.

The Bilsteins have supple high-speed compression valving, which allows them to soak up the small bumps. This also provides a very nice ride - I drove my family to SEMA a few weeks ago on them with stiff spring rates. They are also built to last, probably due to their OEM application requirements. Unlike Konis, I understand the Bilsteins don't need to be rebuilt very often. I haven't touched them since early '05.

At least on my Evo application the stock valving is good up to ~600lbs. If you want to got with stiffer rates, or want to have more usable top adjustment range, you can get them revalved to your rates. Price for strut-type bodies is $125ea, less for standard shock style.

The adjustment knob has nice detents and mostly changes rebound. The range is wide and each detent has a noticeable change. Very usable to adjust the balance of the car, once you get a set-up dialed in.

As far as available spring rates, racers change rates to taste anyways, so most switch to a more common 2.5" size. Bilstein's stock springs are a larger dia. to fit over the dustboots.

The PSS9s also have a long stroke. We compared the amount of travel to the BSP champion Evo on Ohlins, and the PSS9s had a lot more droop.

As for PAX at El Toro, I made a big mistake on my fastest run, so PAX should have been higher. But that provided some sand, which helped with the Challenge win. :) As it was, I still beat the 2008 ProSolo champ by over a sec in class - sorry Max.:cool: This year the car was undefeated in all national and regional events in STU up until Topeka, where my codriver got 4th and I was 8th. Kevin McCormick in STS uses Bilsteins also.

Like James said, Bret is the Man at the Powey, CA Bilstein facility.
http://www.bilstein.com/services.php

Rick

Jake,

I was gonna say to get in touch with Rick Jung, but he's already here. We also have a local guy on revalved PSS9's running Z1's on a BSP friendly spring setup and the car is awesome (Edit, I should note this is an evo, not an STi). Very balanced, no excessive push, really nice considering it's on street tires. If you want to talk with him about his Bilstein experience let me know, mostly positive as I recall.

Just remember that the setup is also very important (ride heights, main/tender spring combo's, etc.). Remember what Hugo's car did at the DC Pro this year...that thing is on 3rd owner clapped out Tein RA's and was only .2 back behind Dave and Corey on Ohlins.

John

Based on Winchester's and Jung's comments above, I'm definitely going to put the Bilsteins at the top of my list when purchasing coilovers for my car at the end of next season (when I begin converting her to STX trim). Thanks.

-Chike

I think I can answer some of your questions.

The Bilsteins have supple high-speed compression valving, which allows them to soak up the small bumps. This also provides a very nice ride - I drove my family to SEMA a few weeks ago on them with stiff spring rates. They are also built to last, probably due to their OEM application requirements. Unlike Konis, I understand the Bilsteins don't need to be rebuilt very often. I haven't touched them since early '05.

At least on my Evo application the stock valving is good up to ~600lbs. If you want to got with stiffer rates, or want to have more usable top adjustment range, you can get them revalved to your rates. Price for strut-type bodies is $125ea, less for standard shock style.

The adjustment knob has nice detents and mostly changes rebound. The range is wide and each detent has a noticeable change. Very usable to adjust the balance of the car, once you get a set-up dialed in.

As far as available spring rates, racers change rates to taste anyways, so most switch to a more common 2.5" size. Bilstein's stock springs are a larger dia. to fit over the dustboots.

The PSS9s also have a long stroke. We compared the amount of travel to the BSP champion Evo on Ohlins, and the PSS9s had a lot more droop.

As for PAX at El Toro, I made a big mistake on my fastest run, so PAX should have been higher. But that provided some sand, which helped with the Challenge win. :) As it was, I still beat the 2008 ProSolo champ by over a sec in class - sorry Max.:cool: This year the car was undefeated in all national and regional events in STU up until Topeka, where my codriver got 4th and I was 8th. Kevin McCormick in STS uses Bilsteins also.

Like James said, Bret is the Man at the Powey, CA Bilstein facility.
http://www.bilstein.com/services.php

Rick


Rick,

I'm glad to hear you endorse the PSS9s and that the OTS valving is so versatile. Also good to hear that there is plenty of droop and stroke. Keeping the tires on the ground is important in our AWD cars.

Are Bilsteins compatible with 2.5" springs? Do you have to run without dust boots if you switch? What would be the appropriate diameter (some kind of metric measure I assume)? Can these be bought from Bilstein direct?

-Jake

that thing is on 3rd owner clapped out Tein RA's and was only .2 back behind Dave and Corey on Ohlins.

John

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Hugo has skank ass coilovers. Actually his car/coilovers is exactly what I ran at the Phili event Buttdyno and Boxologist referenced earlier, where I was 0.5 out from Corey. That having been said, I don't think Hugo set up 100%. Your definitely right, that setup is going to go a long way after I pull the trigger on a c/o set this winter.

-Jake

somebody beat me to posting this:D
Jake, prepping your car for top level STU will be different that prepping for track days, which direction do want to go in?

STU......... But are they really that far off from each other in terms of set up? Tarmac is tarmac after all.

STU......... But are they really that far off from each other in terms of set up? Tarmac is tarmac after all.
Brandon Burkhart used to do track days in his STU prepped STi. Just make sure your track set-up isn't as "loose" as your autocross set-up.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Hugo has skank ass coilovers. Actually his car/coilovers is exactly what I ran at the Phili event Buttdyno and Boxologist referenced earlier, where I was 0.5 out from Corey. That having been said, I don't think Hugo set up 100%. Your definitely right, that setup is going to go a long way after I pull the trigger on a c/o set this winter.

-Jake

Neither Hugo or Corey have a 100% car.

As for coilover springs you just need to find out the ID that the Bilstein's require. It will be 58mm (2 1/4" ID) or 65mm (2 1/2" ID). The spring companies typically sell both and the japanese ones are usually in lengths very similar to the US stuff. Like they sell a 65mm x 175mm x 12kg/mm. Thats a 2.5" ID x 7" ish length x 670 lb/in.

You can get them from Eibach, Hypercoil, Swift (King Motorsports is a great distributor) and there is probably one or two more. If you need Tender's they are pricey from eibach and you have to buy the spacer separate. Swift includes the spacer with their tenders and pricing is cheaper overall on those items (but almost double on main springs).

As Rick mentioned before the DA ohlins have very little stroke on the evo, something like 2.8" in front before hitting the bump stop. Droop on an evo running those with only a main spring is in the .8" to 1" range. Pretty poor if you ask me. Ideally you want a minmum of about 1.5" sprung droop (per Mr. Daddio).

HTH,

John

I have PSS9's on my wagon, and I really like them for daily driving on the softest setting. I believe my spring rates are 400/400 and they came with helper springs (earlier design).

But for autoX I liked my old RCE wagon yellow + koni setup. The PSS9's doesn't provide a good range of adjustment. It felt like you either have full soft or full hard setting, and the location of the adjustment knob makes it hard to reach for that quick between run fine tuning.

Two of my adjustment knobs has gotten a bit difficult to adjust after a few winters worth of driving on salted road, one of the struts appears to be clunking slightly but it is not affecting the performance at all.

Rick,

I'm glad to hear you endorse the PSS9s and that the OTS valving is so versatile. Also good to hear that there is plenty of droop and stroke. Keeping the tires on the ground is important in our AWD cars.

Are Bilsteins compatible with 2.5" springs? Do you have to run without dust boots if you switch? What would be the appropriate diameter (some kind of metric measure I assume)? Can these be bought from Bilstein direct?

-Jake

While the PSS9's valving has a fair range, don't confuse it with the wide range of a Koni 86XX series damper.

John is spot on with the spring info - almost in the same order that I have run. :) I'm on a Swift set-up presently. The stock Bilstiens use a larger than 2.5" dia spring and tender, but you can either buy a 2.5" sized bottom spring land, or a 2.5" to larger dia tender spring separator (if you want to use their tenders) from them.

STU......... But are they really that far off from each other in terms of set up? Tarmac is tarmac after all.

Brandon Burkhart used to do track days in his STU prepped STi. Just make sure your track set-up isn't as "loose" as your autocross set-up.

an AutoX car is usually set up to be more twitchy. a road course car won't need the crazy toe angle nor the obscene spring rates that some people subscribe to for autoX. tarmac is tarmac but AutoX is still the face of the moon at Nassau and now CONCRETE for the national prep. why not make the RX7 more track worthy?

You should be able to go back and forth between track and autox with nothing but alignment changes IMHO.

I had the first PSS9 kit on an STi in North America. It went on my car in Nov. 2003. There are a couple of things that I would recommend, and there are a couple of minor fitment issues, but nothing that can't be overcome with a couple of washers.

I have tried a few different spring rates on the front of the car, and for a pure track/A-X car that's never street driven, there is more grip there. My car's a DD, and though I have done a couple of track days and A-X's with it, the next stiffer available spring rate made it a bit too uncomfortable for street use for my taste.

The front springs are 60mm ID, the rears are 70mm, but I do know of a few people that have converted the rears to 60mm ID-The only hard to obtain piece is the rear upper spring mount.

I spoke to bret yesterday and found out that there can be clearence issues in the rear with the help spring and the tire.

I spoke to bret yesterday and found out that there can be clearence issues in the rear with the help spring and the tire.

This should be true for any coil-over. In STU there should be no issues using 245 tires with proper wheel/spacer offset . For BSP/SM fitments of 285+ tires, shorter length main springs may needed keep them above the tires.

If the rear 70mm spring diameter is an issue, then switching to 60mm makes sense to gain .2" more clearance. There are also a lot of 2.5" (~60mm) springs for sale used. BTW, Hyperco's helper springs are low cost, and have a minimal compressed ht, ~.25". The helpers just keep the stiff main spring in place at full droop. PM me your email and I'll send a pic of my rear spring set-up.

Hope this helps!

Rick

I'm pretty satisfied with my PSS9s besides a few issues. Mine came with approx. 400lb. springs F&R. In the middle of the damping range (5) the ride on the freeway is smooth but firm and slightly underdamped. Definitely not "jiggly". At full firm on the damping they're slightly overdamped but for Auto-X, HPDEs etc., I found the control to be excellent with the AD07s holding me back at that point.

The rears are V7 fitment so you'll need the spacers in the back. Overall I'm very pleased with them and the lifetime warranty is a selling point as well. Not sure if it's transferable though.

one of the struts appears to be clunking slightly but it is not affecting the performance at all.

+1. Mine started to have stiction after 20K miles or so. A shot of grease cures it temporarily but I've accepted this is a disadvantage of the suspension geometry with inverted struts and not the strut itself.

I spoke to bret yesterday and found out that there can be clearence issues in the rear with the help spring and the tire.

The helper springs definitely reduce clearance in the back. You can crank the seats up effectively locking out the the helper spring or take them off.

Just repackaged Tein hardware ?! :eek: :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/sonicyellowrx/Bilstein2.jpg

Can't find it now ... but there was that long thread from the fellow who did a lot of race shock rebuilding. Wasn't his observation that the Bilstein's were exceptional in their build quality and being nicely matched. I think he said that a lot of the cheaper JDM/Chinese hardware was all over the place in terms of settings, sticktion, etc.

When Grassroots Motor Sports did that test where they kept adding mods (to a WRX wagon) and then comparing lap times, adding coilovers did very little to improving times but did make it easier to reach quick lap times?

Can't find it now ... but there was that long thread from the fellow who did a lot of race shock rebuilding. Wasn't his observation that the Bilstein's were exceptional in their build quality and being nicely matched. I think he said that a lot of the cheaper JDM/Chinese hardware was all over the place in terms of settings, sticktion, etc.


You're just jealous because your high $ Penskes are having issues. :devil:

This may be the link you were referring to.
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html

Rick

Thats the link.

Okay now it's time to throw the wrench into the works. H&R has coilovers (which have also been speced by Perrin and sold at a discount relative to h&r) have a very affordable set up ranging from $1100-1500. The shocks are built in Germany by bilstein for this set up. The spring rate (at least on the perrins are 80/50 n/mm or approx 458/286 lbs/in f/r. The kit includes helper springs but no camber plates or upper mounts.. An important factor to note is the shock is a non adjustable damper however this make rebuilds much more affordable. Additionally ride height is not independently adjustable.

Any have any insight on this setup and my intended goals? Anyone have experience with these, even better?

They seem promising but I would consider higher rear spring rates. Replacement might not be advisable however since the irregular spring length of 165mm and the fact that I am stuck with the ots valving matched to the lower spring rate. What rate jump in the rear could be doable without necessary revalving? Does any know if swift or hypercoil can make 165Mm length springs?

Does any know if swift or hypercoil can make 165Mm length springs?
It's height adjustable right? Can't you just run a 6" or 7" spring?

Oh yeah. That'll work.

I'm hoping a 350 lbs/in spring 7" long will work fine with regards to the off the shelf valving and wheel/tire clearance. I would go 6" to avoid clearance issues but i've been told going smaller could result in binding issues.

I'm about to put the bilsteins on before a track day. I'll let you all know how they are after I run them in this week.

Okay now it's time to throw the wrench into the works. H&R has coilovers (which have also been speced by Perrin and sold at a discount relative to h&r) have a very affordable set up ranging from $1100-1500. The shocks are built in Germany by bilstein for this set up. The spring rate (at least on the perrins are 80/50 n/mm or approx 458/286 lbs/in f/r. The kit includes helper springs but no camber plates or upper mounts.. An important factor to note is the shock is a non adjustable damper however this make rebuilds much more affordable. Additionally ride height is not independently adjustable.

Any have any insight on this setup and my intended goals? Anyone have experience with these, even better?

They seem promising but I would consider higher rear spring rates. Replacement might not be advisable however since the irregular spring length of 165mm and the fact that I am stuck with the ots valving matched to the lower spring rate. What rate jump in the rear could be doable without necessary revalving? Does any know if swift or hypercoil can make 165Mm length springs?

I finally pulled the trigger on a new set from Perrin. The price was great, only $965 shipped new. This set is identical to the H&R (Bilstein) street performance coilovers on Tirerack. Spring rates are the same too, 458f/286r. I also got a set of Group-N rear top mounts and 60n/mm swift springs for the rear coilovers.

I just go a kick in the nuts from H&R. They said that the shocks are not built by Bilstein, they are in fact built in an H&R facility in Germany. They DO, however, "use some bilstein components" in their shocks according to the H&R representative. I don't know what the F that means, but I HOPE they use 99.9% Bilstein internals and are built by a competent person

Ruh roh.

Ruh roh.

scoobs... http://www.tvcrazy.net/tvclassics/cartoons/images/scoobydoo.jpg

I'd put a dollar down saying the inserts are Bilstein off the shelf pieces and H&R is putting a body on them.

I'd put a dollar down saying the inserts are Bilstein off the shelf pieces and H&R is putting a body on them.

That's my hope. I think the h&r rep had too much company pride to admit that the use bilstein so extensively.

That's my hope. I think the h&r rep had too much company pride to admit that the use bilstein so extensively.

I don't think Bilstein would revalve H&R branded shocks, even if they were rebadged.

I believe "bilstein" is engraved on the shock. Maybe that would pursuade them.

I'd put a dollar down saying the inserts are Bilstein off the shelf pieces and H&R is putting a body on them.

close.

H&R builds and assembles their shocks from Bilstien parts, but all of the assembly for them is done by H&R. H&R does make their own shock and strut bodies, but they get all of the other parts from Bilstein.

As a side note, H&R manufactures most of the springs for the Bilstien coilover kits.

<-- works for a large dealer of both H&R and Bilstien.

Hey guys,

Just a word on the PSS-9s. Great shock, and a good way to get a Bilstien body that fits an OEM fitment, but the adjusters are junk.

They work full hard and full soft, but any of the intermediate settings are as inconsistent as all hell. It's a combination of the type of variable restriction Bilstein uses (a cheesewedge) the slop in the detents, and the way the detent stops are clocked.

It's a bizzaro system that just doesn't work at "part throttle". On or off, that's it.

And the difference in the bleed between "on" and "off" is pretty big.

My advice with PSS-9s is to convert them to take aparts http://www.farnorthracing.com/shocks_2.html and replace the adjustable bleed shafts with solid shafts. Alternatively, revalve the adjustables to 65% critical at full hard, and use the full soft setting as a "mom/girlfriend in car" setting.

The good news is that it pretty cheap. You keep the same pistons, the shafts are cheap, and so are the valvestacks.

Talking to Brett is a good idea too. Tell him I said hi.

DG

close.

H&R builds and assembles their shocks from Bilstien parts, but all of the assembly for them is done by H&R. H&R does make their own shock and strut bodies, but they get all of the other parts from Bilstein.

As a side note, H&R manufactures most of the springs for the Bilstien coilover kits.

<-- works for a large dealer of both H&R and Bilstien.

Thanks for the insight!

Do you happen to know the thread pitch on the H&R coilover for mounting camber plates? OEM shocks and Cusco camber plates are 12x1.25. I am hoping to continue to use my Cusco units. I called H&R and the rep said there was NO WAY he could find out. I find that ridiculous. Anyway, any help from you would be greatly appreciated. Also, FWIW, "Bilstein" is engraved on the piston shaft.

Lastly, the H&R coilovers arrived today (no I don't have a thread measuring tool in my office where the coilovers were shipped). They look nice. A little heavier than I expected. I guess there is a trade off between build-quality, price, and weight. Anyway, they look great. I already assembled the rears with the group-n upper mounts and the swift 60n/mm springs. A nice bonus was that the set came with H&R eccentric camber bolts. The probably expect people to dial out some of the negative camber created by the lowering of the car. I intend to use them to dial in more and match my rear camber left to right. Also worth noting is that units ordered from Perrin aren't any different than those you would get from H&R. In fact, they were drop shipped from H&R directly. There is no Perrin badging, etc. Perrin's business here is just to provide the units at a great price. $965 shipped after using the "Santa08" promotional code. This price is ~$500 less than the standard retail price of the units from The Tirerack (however even tirerack has these on closeout for $1050 plus shipping) or other vendors.

Teaser photo of wheel and suspension setup '09:
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w128/s1mpsons/Other%20Random/photo.jpg

I used my PSS9's for rallyX....put in some softer/longer springs and they were great. good on public roads too, I always had them on full soft and they were still fairly stiff. I had a rear endlink break and I could barely tell the difference w/no rear sway bar.

FWIW, I have a set of brand new Swift springs for the rear (70mm ID) that are 10in long, 280lbs/in (swift 050 is printed on the side) if you decide you want to change anything in that area, I'd sell them cheap.

Hey guys,

Just a word on the PSS-9s. Great shock, and a good way to get a Bilstien body that fits an OEM fitment, but the adjusters are junk.

They work full hard and full soft, but any of the intermediate settings are as inconsistent as all hell. It's a combination of the type of variable restriction Bilstein uses (a cheesewedge) the slop in the detents, and the way the detent stops are clocked.

It's a bizzaro system that just doesn't work at "part throttle". On or off, that's it.

And the difference in the bleed between "on" and "off" is pretty big.

My advice with PSS-9s is to convert them to take aparts http://www.farnorthracing.com/shocks_2.html and replace the adjustable bleed shafts with solid shafts. Alternatively, revalve the adjustables to 65% critical at full hard, and use the full soft setting as a "mom/girlfriend in car" setting.

The good news is that it pretty cheap. You keep the same pistons, the shafts are cheap, and so are the valvestacks.

Talking to Brett is a good idea too. Tell him I said hi.

DG
Dennis,

Couple questions:

1) When was the last time you had a set of PSS-9's on your shock dyno?
2) How many different sets of PSS-9's did you test on your dyno?

Reason I ask, is that the PSS-9's available for my current car (RX-8) were updated by Bilstein 1-2 years ago and were re-released with a completely new part number. From what I've been told, these updated PSS-9's received new shock valving from Bilstein. I'm not sure if ALL PSS-9's have been updated over the years, but if your experience is based off of testing done 4-5+ years ago, how do we know it's still valid?

I'm not sure how many people on this board have ever dyno tested their Bilsteins but perhaps they could chime in? I know Rick Jung is on here and he runs a Bilstein set-up on his STU evo.

-Chike

P.S. Not trying to be harsh, but I always tend to play devil's advocate...

I agree with Chike.

Dennis, this has been something that quite a few have asked of you for a while... it would be nice if you were to put when you actually did the testing when you talk about different shocks/models. And not only that, what car they came off of or were intended for.

Many companies (the good ones) improve things over time and learn from their customers and/or their mistakes (or... strive to keep improving). You should start filling in the holes on your site with that data (dates)... you could have done much of your research 4-5 years ago (or last month... but I believe the 3-4 years ago timeframe to be accurate) and much of what you say about shocks then, quite possibly could have changed, or could be relevant to today as far as where you talk about specific product.

For example... Shocktec went out of business 2001. That was 7 years ago. Yet you give a link to someone about ShockTec as if it could have happened just recently (that page appeared in Aug 2003, 4 1/2 years ago) and how to modify the Bilsteins. That's information that's 5 years old! How is that relevant to today's Bilsteins?

What if (and I'm willing to be they did) Bilstein changed their design since the time you put up the page?

Lots of what you have on your site is relevant to tuning. That's some good data to get people to think. But you're contantly putting 'data' out there on the web that is quite dated. Processes and materials change over time. If you're going to be an authority, please date your tests.

--KC

Thanks for the insight!

Do you happen to know the thread pitch on the H&R coilover for mounting camber plates? OEM shocks and Cusco camber plates are 12x1.25. I am hoping to continue to use my Cusco units. I called H&R and the rep said there was NO WAY he could find out. I find that ridiculous. Anyway, any help from you would be greatly appreciated. Also, FWIW, "Bilstein" is engraved on the piston shaft.



I don't know off hand and I don't have one to measure, but the H&R coilovers are designed to be compatible with all of the stock components, so if the Cusco camber plates will work with the stock shocks, then they should work with no problems witht he H&R's. I would guess that the top nut is either 12x1.25 or 12x1.5, but in either case a new top nut should have been included with the front struts, and it is still 12mm. H&R is very good about keeping thisngs compatible with stock components.

The H&R Street Performance coilovers are on the car now along with the cusco front camber plates (needed new top mount nut from cusco - thread on nut here: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1676127), group-n rear top hats, and 6k rear springs from swift (+1k over H&R's rear rate).

I set the ride heights to 13.75" center-of-wheel to top-of-fender-arch all around. This setting was completely arbitrary but seems to work really nicely. The rear perch is set just high enough to allow clearance for my new wheel and tire set up (see below). It should also be noted that droop travel (an area of concern for many regarding these coilovers) is 15.5" front and 15" rear. This may prove problematic later, but for now no problems.

I did not install the camber bolts and as it turned out they are not necessary. The new setup has much more roll resistance and as a result the max camber without the additional eccentric bolts prove sufficient under autox conditions.

Another huge contributing factor to the performance gain from last year to now is my new wheel and tire set up. I went from 17x8" RPF1 wheels to 17x9" Rota DPT wheels (CE28 replicas) with a 42et offset and dual lug patterns. This set up does not rub, however for the brief time I had these wheel with the JDM pinks they rubbed (ever so slightly) in the rear even with my rolled rear fenders. I also decided to give the Toyo R1R tires a go, despite everyone advising against them for such a heavy car. I went with 245/40/17 (versus last years 245/45/17 Bridgestone RE01R tires). The grip is uncanny but the wear (after 30 minutes on track and ~12 autox runs) is, not surprisingly, horrible.

From a performance perspective I couldn't be happier. The shocks and springs feel great. The added roll stiffness and tire stickiness are well received. I ran the car at NNJR SCCA first autox of the season (test and tune) and won Pro class and overall Pax with 100+ driver turnout and some very notable National contenders in the mix. Not much was compromised from drivability. I drive around Manhattan and on suburban open roads. Even had her over cobblestone and craptastic winter potholes today. The shocks feel better than the oem KYB garbage shocks (not surprising). The one problem I did have with the shocks and springs was on the highway driving approximately 80mph. I came to a one mile stretch of highway with buckles in the pavement (perpendicular to my direction of motion) that were at even 30' intervals. The car got into a nasty rebound frequency match with the pavement and I had to slow down.

My one other problem with the coilovers, which I am sure many gurus out there could have seen coming, is the lack of torrington/thrust/needle-point bearings between the spring perch and the spring. I ordered 4 bearings and 8 washers. See this thread for details: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1610495

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w128/s1mpsons/Hot%20STi/3355167444_1076a9af31_o.jpg

Nice Jake!! I want a ride this sunday!

What happen to the front of your car?

No problem for sunday. The front lip died at Monticello winter driving series.

I see this situation all the time. Its normal for the OP to have a "favorite" choice. Many things can contribute to his or her wanting his favorite. But.I say to the Op: get the Bilsteins, run them and work on driving. All the choices are good, so you cant loose. I personally have had Bilsteins on all of about 15 cars in the last 20 years, except my old 280Z from the mid eighties. Anyway..get the Bilsteins and focus on all the other things you have on your plate like driving, tires, pressure, courses, rules etc. Biggest factor will always be ...YOU.

Lets not obsess over the details. Good drivers are fast no matter what the shock.

So here again....GET THE BILLIES and call it a day. You wont be dissapointed.

Myles


hey, Myles, i've had the bilsteins for quite a while now (with your camber plates (which need new bearings, by the way)) and i find that they are now sticking the way the stock (and pinks!) do. you told me once but i forgot now about rebuilding the stockers with mobil 1 gear lube (???). anyway, would you apply the same advice for the bilsteins? i don't have the receipt for them so it's not like i can send 'em back for free. help??

hey, Myles, i've had the bilsteins for quite a while now (with your camber plates (which need new bearings, by the way)) and i find that they are now sticking the way the stock (and pinks!) do. you told me once but i forgot now about rebuilding the stockers with mobil 1 gear lube (???). anyway, would you apply the same advice for the bilsteins? i don't have the receipt for them so it's not like i can send 'em back for free. help??

You can always send them to Bilstein in Poway,CA, and they can revalve them for whatever spring rates you want. Ask for Brett- very smart and he is a top AX racer.

Rick

You can always send them to Bilstein in Poway,CA, and they can revalve them for whatever spring rates you want. Ask for Brett- very smart and he is a top AX racer.

Rick

i shall, for sure.