Ok folks I need a hand.

It was slowing like mad out here in colorado today, Lost power so the girlfiend and myself decide to take "Burt" my 1 month old 01 RS for a romp around Deer Creek Canyon.

For those of you that know it there are some very fun dirt roads twisting up the mountains and i mean Twisting, Shear drop stuff.

I told mary, "This is how we drive all the time in England." LOL

Well after our little 60-70 MPH romp up and down the trails in the snow, with some serious full lock, parking brake assist slides around the corners, I asked Mary if she would care to take a few full drift shots. Yeah Right!!!!

Well I got some aftermath shots, but how the heck do I put them on Here???

Any help would be appreciated.

Get an account over on www.photopoint.com (http://www.photopoint.com) (I think it's still free... right everyone?) and link to the pictures on there. Sounds like a blast. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

E-brake, very very bad for AWD system. Falling of sheer cliff, very very bad for your head(and car).

photopoint isn't free any longer IIRC.
I use Zing...www.zing.com
no problems ever, no charges...no hassle.. seems like photopoint when it was free..and working.

yeah, if you are e-braking it, I hope, for the sake of your car, that it's an automatic. Those can handle it, the manuals don't like it.

E-Braking in low traction situations should be ok on the tranny. It's high traction situations that will really put the heat in the viscous clutches. Though I prefer to slide the back end without the e-brake. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

Even with an auto tranny I'd be hesitant to use the e-brake on pavement.

But on a dirt road in the snow? I don't think it is quite as bad for the car.

Hell, I have been known to do some wicked 180's in the sand.

The only thing that disturbs me slightly is that wonderful *CLUNK*.

The road conditions have nothing to do with an e-brake turn being hard on your car.

Power is shifted based on speed differential between the two axles. When you pull the ebrake, the rear is now going much slower than the front, which makes the car think the front is spinning.

The center diff sends most of the power to the back, but the axle is locked by the ebrake - bye bye center diff, bye bye rear diff, bye bye rear drive train.

You guys really should learn how your car works before you go do stuff like this.

It's actually not as bad on low adhesion surfaces. If the Impreza differentials were locking, it would be a different story, but since they are LSDs they have a certain amount of "slop" that allows for e-braking without destruction of the diff.

Kind of like when an Impreza is launching, the back wheels often stop completely while the fronts spin, then the tranfer occurs. This is similar to the MOMENTARY application of the e-brake to induce a slide. Nobody said anything about pulling the e-brake and locking it in place. That would be destructive to any car. (Think RWD with e-brake on, and power applied)

I guess what many people don't realize about drifting is that the rears tend to stop rotating momentarily even when the e-brake is not used. All cars do this, it is due to the sideways friction of the road surface. If the rears continued to turn during a drift, you would probably spin right around and be unable to keep control of the car.

Go look at the 22B drift videos on Scoobynet, you'll see Simon de Banke doing donuts in rsquire's 22b. The rear wheels are going so fast that they blur, and the front wheels are almost stationary. This continues for a LONG TIME. And please, don't give me any windbag explanations about how the 22B is designed for that. The AWD system in the 22B is not that different from that in the RS. See 8Complex's scoobnuts videos for similar footage on a US spec car.

I have never heard of anyone junking a center diff by using the e-brake to pop the back end out. Please enlighten me by finding an example of a US owner who has damaged their car in this way.

-Porter

One thing about the 22B. It has an adjustable center differential. The guy who was driving that said he adjusted most of the power to the rear for those vids, making it almost rear wheel drive. So that doesn't help your argument.

Kind of like when an Impreza is launching, the back wheels often stop completely while the fronts spin, then the tranfer occurs. This is similar to the MOMENTARY application of the e-brake to induce a slide.

These are not at all the same. Your example is how the system is supposed to work. The rear axle is free and able to accept the power transferred to it. When you yank the ebrake, the axle is locked and there is nowhere for that power to go, except back up into the diffs.

Nobody said anything about pulling the e-brake and locking it in place. That would be destructive to any car. (Think RWD with e-brake on, and power applied)

from the original post:

with some serious full lock, parking brake assist slides around the corners

Do what you want with your own car, but don't recommend it to other people.

Nobody can pull and release an ebrake faster than it takes the drive train to bind. Also, the ebrake locks the rear axle, so you are stressing the entire rear drive assembly, not just the center diff. This is simple mechanical reality, not a matter of opinion.

Also, rally diffs are much stronger than the drivetrain components in a production model.

[This message has been edited by gavin (edited May 21, 2001).]

Guys, pulling the ebrake for a moment once in a while on dry surfaces isn't horrible!

We have VISCOUS center diff's. The thing that causes them to transfer power is a fluid, when this fluid is heated up enough, it will lock the front and rear together, but under normal driving conditions it is nowhere near heated up enough to do it. If you pull the ebrake for a second, you are stopping the rear wheels momentarily, only causing the fluid to heat up slightly - not enough to lock them and cause problems.

I have been pulling my ebrake for 180's and donuts since I've gotten the car, maybe once a week. No problems whatsoever with the center diff.

The STi and 22B have a different type of center diff. that can be adjusted, as stated above, hence the reason they can go RWD like Simon was doing in the 22B vids of Richard Squire's car.

Grabbing the ebrake will cause the front wheels to try and spin (or not spin) the same speed as the rear wheels. On pavement the front has a lot of grip. So when you grab the ebrake on pavement, you are going to have a large speed differential through the center diff. The viscous fluid will heat up.

On loose surfaces there is enough grip through the viscous clutches to actually slow down, if not lock, the front wheels when grabbing the ebrake. This does not heat up the viscous fluid as much as e-braking on pavement. On loose surfaces it's not going to cause damage like it will on pavement. The effects of e-braking on loose surfaces is no greater than spinning the front and rear tires on the same loose surfaces. You are simply working the center diff the way it was intended.

Even if you do e-brake on pavement, your center diff is not going to explode. The heat will cause damage to the viscous fluid and other components. If you do it once or twice and allow it to cool, no big deal. If you continue to do it over and over again until you cook the fluid and or seals, you will have no more locking capability. You will end up with an open center diff.

e-braking is not the fastest way through a corner, and I'm not a big fan of it. But through some really really tight low speed corners, it's the way to go.

Ok, let me take a stab at this.
Manual Subaru's have a viscous differential. As I understand it, the diff fluid becomes more viscous as the difference between the input and output shafts increase. The goal of this increase in viscosity is to equalize the input and output shafts, or make all wheels spin at approximately the same speed. Here is an experiment to do at home, get a variable speed blender and a cup or dish of moderately viscous material. Put the blender on the lowest speed and stick it in the liquid. As you increase the blender speed, the fluid will become more viscous, causing more resistance, and the container will want to spin. When you give the e-brake a quick yank the input/output difference is greatly increased, the increased viscosity of the fluid will resist the difference causing the differential to "send more power" to the rear wheels to get back to speed quickly. It isn't really sending more power, it is just trying to equalize the input and output. Now you ask "Where is the bad part?", well I'm not sure. I guess if the input/output difference was extremely high and/or maintained for a long period of time the fluid pressure could build up and cause a leak, explosion, chocolate pudding, etc. There is probably some wear and tear on the other drive train components, but I doubt it is much worse than the 4000 rpm clutch drops that we all love. I suppose you could wear out the e-brake button too.

If you are wondering about the automatics, well they have computers and other stuff that I don't understand http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif.


Either way, I think it would be worse to yank the e-brake on an automatic. The manual seems mostly mechanical and "dumb", the auto has "smart" little gizmos to anticipate stuff. You don't want to upset the gizmos, they are probably expensive.

Technic
(Looking forward to e-braking his WRX that is finally on order.)

[This message has been edited by Technic (edited May 21, 2001).]

Yep that's how it works. The only damaging by product is heat. As the viscous fluid gets churned violently, it produces heat. e-braking in moderation won't hurt it.

I keep forgetting this and its kinda on topic...so don't flame me too bad http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif

whats the power split between the front and rear normally in a MY00 Manual RS?

If your real question was how do you post your pic's - iClub members can upload them to their personal area here. Then simply imbed the address in <IMG SRC="____" border=0> and you're set. There are complete descriptions and testing threads if you search for 'post image'.

The diff was NOT biased all the way to the rear on the 22B video. Simon de Banke (the driver) stated on Scoobynet that the diff setting was left in the normal position at 50/50. John Felstead backed this up in a post here on i-club about 3 months or so ago. Simon apparently likes to leave the diff at 50-50 because it's more predictable or something like that.

Anyway, the Subaru AWD system has A LOT more flexibility than most people on here give it credit for. Don't believe the "Wheels that slip to the wheels that grip" nonsense. It doesn't work quite like that in the real world. It's more like "power goes mostly to the path of least resistance until the diff fluid heats up a lot". The handling advantages of AWD are due mostly to the 50/50 power split (manual). This does of course vary based on acceleration (for you sticklers to detail).

I think the folks who are shouting about breaking the diffs are used to a Chevy 4WD or something. This isn't your grandpappy's Dodge truck you know. These diffs don't lock!

i think i'll install a ford 9" in the rear to be on the safe side. don't wnat that chocolate pudding explosion to happen to me.http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif

Before anybody starts pointing out that WRC drivers use the eBrake, their center diffs are designed to quit sending power to the rear as soon as the eBrake comes on.

Ever play Colin McRae 2.0 for playstation or PC?

I love holding down the e-brake and watching the cars drag their rear wheels the entire time.

The center diff can take a fair amount of abuse. But you certainly don't want to e-brake it over and over and over again on a hot day on the pavement. Use a little discression.

Here's a little experiment you can try to feel the center diff in action. jack up the front end of your Impreza, Leave the car in neutral. Have somebody hold one front wheel, or brace it so it won't move. Now try and turn the other wheel. You will find that it is difficult to turn. You can turn it, but the faster you try and turn it the more it resists. Kind of like trying to push a shock or screen door damper faster.

That is the center diff working. If you had the strength to apply more torque to the wheel, you could get the wheel to spin a little faster, causing the viscous fluid to heat a bit thus getting thicker and causing more friction within the unit. All of this energy is turned into heat. The viscous unit can take quite a bit of heat, but it does have some limitation. At some point the heat can get so great that seals will melt, and metal will fatigue, and something bad will happen. But a few e-brakes on dry pavement won't hurt it. You just wouldn't want to do it for oh say an hour straight. That would be bad. e-braking on loose surfaces (pea gravel/snow/mud/etc.) won't hurt it. You could probably do it all day long and ruin a set of tires before the diff complained.

I would imagine if you were to heat it up beyond tolerance, the first thing that would happen would be the magical viscous fluid would find a way to leave the viscous unit. Then the heat generating element would be eliminated. The bad thing is you will have an open center diff. Meaning that you no longer have a 50/50 torque split. Whichever end loses traction is going to spin.

I think if you lost the viscous fluid in the center diff, you would then be front wheel drive only.

-------

Back on the main topic. I would like to see the pics too. Like others have said, you will need to get some sort of web space to put them on first.

[This message has been edited by Technic (edited May 22, 2001).]

patryn: Hahahahaha I was wondering how long this thread was going to go on without someone hitting on the chocolate pudding comment.

If you hadn't said something, I was going to have to do it. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

It would still be awd. The subie has a conventional center diff, with viscous clutches to provide friction.

LOL,

Ok folks must have struck a nerve here.

Well in regards to the one fella that is so hurt that i am promoting E-brake turns, Give me a break. Go worry about the chinese/U.S. relations or something important.

I think we are all big people here.

I was taught E-brake turning about 18 years ago by a very good driver. My dad. He was Production driver for Alfa Romeo, ran in races such as the RAC british rally for 5 years consectutive. Actually came to the U.S. in 1981 to promote Rally racing in the U.S. Ahead of there time i guess.

So if you know how do do it, do it.

As far as vehical damage, i would not do it on the street you can use a weight transfer technique for these turns, while keeping the car in the power band to punch out of the corners, However in adverse conditions, and on a slick surface a little induced rear slid is safer and faster. Of course you do it on either a deserted area or on a track.

Limited use of this technique on a loose surface really should not damage your vehical, and i never recomended it to any one, but it is fun. Maybe some day ill see you on the track and we can compare times once you meet me at the finish line.

Bye folks, thanks for the info.

Cherrio

[This message has been edited by lewscour (edited May 23, 2001).]