just wanted to share a prototype EJ-series dry sump system that a friend of mine is working on. It uses a Dailey Engineering hybrid roots-type pump to evacuate the crankcase, similar to the Nextel Cup cars.

Pro's of this system:

does not interfere with any existing engine components
pump speed can be adjusted to suit application
low parasitic drag
high quality, race-proven pump design
improved ground clearance (roughly 2" shallower currently, new design is even shallower)


This will be run off the timing belt and will only require modification to the front timing cover.

This is the first prototype that my friend wanted to share with you guys. He is already at work on the next prototype which addresses a couple issues and adds even more features.

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/ben94cobra/dry%20sump/drysump-009.jpg

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/ben94cobra/dry%20sump/drysump-014.jpg

Holy ****!!! that is exactly, well almost, identical to one that I had on the drawing board...I actually like how you didn't run external lines on the sump however like mine. You had it internal'ish from the pan...mine just would have had hard shortlines from an agles sump bottom.

Looks stellars and big kudos!!

thats sweet, whats the difference between a pump like that and an external one.

Holy ****!!! that is exactly, well almost, identical to one that I had on the drawing board...I actually like how you didn't run external lines on the sump however like mine. You had it internal'ish from the pan...mine just would have had hard shortlines from an agles sump bottom.

Looks stellars and big kudos!!

Thanks man, but I cannot take credit! My buddy is a senior master tech for Subaru, and has a background in Mechanical Engineering as well as 25+ years building race engines. I am stoked to see him applying his wizardry to Subarus now. Hopefully he will chime in, his name is andya.

BTW, this is just his first proto. I'm not even allowed to discuss his next one. :)

wow, it looks like a little supercharger! I would be scared to run it off of the timing belt, even though I am sure it would be fine...

Great work, direct scavenge from the pan, it's about time a Subaru got this.

Have you worked out how to plumb it back in yet?

Awsome desighn!!!!! Way to go guys I am saving to favs.... One thing, why draw from the timing belt? Its already kinda taxed at high rpm. Why not a seperate cog drive?

I am not bashing just curious, and when will you be making these avail? and how much? LOL

wow, it looks like a little supercharger! I would be scared to run it off of the timing belt, even though I am sure it would be fine...

It actually IS a little supercharger, from what I understand. The innards are the secret though... they are made to move oil, not air.

We talked about the timing belt and he said the pump is very low parasitic drag, and uses a very cool little cogged pulley. people who run these will most likely use a kevlar belt so no issue there.

that is an insanely good idea...

looks very nice. I would assume there will be options to gear the system to your rev range?

subscribe

Question is how much will it go for... looks very good though..

Question is how much will it go for... looks very good though..
You must buy this Tino, you could then claim title of most billet motor on Nasioc.

You must buy this Tino, you could then claim title of most billet motor on Nasioc.

hahahahah well help me buy it so u can share in the fame :lol:

looks very nice. I would assume there will be options to gear the system to your rev range?

Yes, that system is in place.

Thanks man, but I cannot take credit! My buddy is a senior master tech for Subaru, and has a background in Mechanical Engineering as well as 25+ years building race engines. I am stoked to see him applying his wizardry to Subarus now. Hopefully he will chime in, his name is andya.

BTW, this is just his first proto. I'm not even allowed to discuss his next one. :)

yeah, I had based mine off of a tiny Pace Products drysump pump for fitment/ground clearance. When I mocked it up with a barnes, the unit hung too low for my comfort...how much ground clearance does this one have from the ground with fittings/lines and who makes the pump itself (homemade housing with someone's internals)? One issue that I can't see if you addressed was the belt tension? mine was just sliding on tracks, much like a SBC pump.

P.S. I'm an mechanical engineer 'nerd' too ;)

wow :eek: that is a sick setup!

estimated price?

its a prototype guys...no price probably

yeah, I had based mine off of a tiny Pace Products drysump pump for fitment/ground clearance. When I mocked it up with a barnes, the unit hung too low for my comfort...how much ground clearance does this one have from the ground with fittings/lines and who makes the pump itself (homemade housing with someone's internals)? One issue that I can't see if you addressed was the belt tension? mine was just sliding on tracks, much like a SBC pump.

P.S. I'm an mechanical engineer 'nerd' too ;)


The setup in its current configuration has almost 2" more ground clearance than a STI oil pan. I am working on 3" for the follow up design.
This unit is a product of Bill Dailey of Dailey Engineering and this is still in the R&D phase. The drive system is a cog belt with no tensioner. The fit is perfect and no bearing load.
At the moment, I am working on three options for pressure delivery, each has its advantage, but the 'KISS' principle (keep it simple stupid) is important for the average installer.
As far as the price................... If you have to ask.......

that's thinking outside the box!

Very nice! I've never even handled a Dailey unit...googling now...

Finally someone in the States giving this a try, so far only Roger Clark has been able to pull it off.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2/dsc07209ve6.jpg

since the corvette went dry sump i was interested ,

also i dont know what that one guy was talking about not running it off the timing belt. i mean where does he think his wet sump oil pump runs off of?

good work gents!

also i dont know what that one guy was talking about not running it off the timing belt. i mean where does he think his wet sump oil pump runs off of?

good work gents!
Try directly off the crank:huh:

Try directly off the crank:huh:

truth,
the timing belt pulley is mounted to the crank, the crank runs through the oil pump its self.

and the timing belt gets its power from where? right so i dont see the problem with running the dry sump off of the timing belt.

and the timing belt gets its power from where? right so i dont see the problem with running the dry sump off of the timing belt.
You are right, the timing belt get's it's power from creatures that died millions of years ago and were nice enough to become combustible; just like the oil pump.:lol:

The stock oil pump puts no additional load on the timing belt as it's inner rotor is keyed and driven directly with flats on the crank snout. The dry sump pump adds loading to the timing belt because it is directly driven by said belt. I am not saying it IS going to be a problem however it is something to consider.

By your logic, why not just run the input shaft of your trans to the timing belt while your at it;-) LOL
peace, Jordan

Oops.

because the trans it onthe tottally opposite side of the motor 1st, and secondly i dont think a rubber belt can handle the torque made by an input shaft.

but an oil pump? the guy said he is using a kevlar belt for this set up so i think its going to be a problem. im sure he did consider it .

that dry sump looks so top notch

O it does. And assuming the belt can hold the additional loading (which it should as Dailey is no dummy) it will put the Cossie setup to shame.

this isn't a stock oil pump we're driving, it's a low-drag custom roots-type pump custom for the EJ-series by Dailey. I can't wait to start testing this unit.

I'd be happy to test the unit with HIS built motor ;)

pardon my ignorance here, but where would the exhaust manifold go? i.e. the section that goes across the front of the engine?

The Rigoli's I believe have such a setup going already, but they mention that you have to re-route the exhaust manifold completely use such a setup.. Is there something I'm missing about this setup?

pardon my ignorance here, but where would the exhaust manifold go? i.e. the section that goes across the front of the engine?

The Rigoli's I believe have such a setup going already, but they mention that you have to re-route the exhaust manifold completely use such a setup.. Is there something I'm missing about this setup?

No ignorance on your part!! Very good question.
I am waiting for a collection of headers to check for clearance issues and determine which setup works.
The version 2 will accept most exhaust types, but requires a higher skill level for installation.

I want

Great work I want wait to see what happens down the road.

Keep up the Great work.

I just have to say how much, and where do I get one cause I want to run one with my Chimera twin scroll S366 setup.

I just have to say how much, and where do I get one cause I want to run one with my Chimera twin scroll S366 setup.

read people...he already answered to the effect of 'if you have to ask'.

also this is only a prototype, generally they dont sell prototypes before teh actual product is released.

pardon my ignorance here, but where would the exhaust manifold go? i.e. the section that goes across the front of the engine?

The Rigoli's I believe have such a setup going already, but they mention that you have to re-route the exhaust manifold completely use such a setup.. Is there something I'm missing about this setup?

there is no heads on that motor you should have enough room to make the exhaust manifold work.

Well then do you have any idea when you will release it???

Well then do you have any idea when you will release it???

As this is still in the prototype stage, there is really no way to give an accurate date. Rest assured that relevant updates will be shared with you guys as they develop.

:banana:

http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/ben94cobra/dry%20sump/drysump-008.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/ben94cobra/dry%20sump/drysump-010.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/ben94cobra/dry%20sump/drysump-011.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/ben94cobra/dry%20sump/drysump-013.jpg
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/ben94cobra/dry%20sump/drysump-015.jpg

looks great to me.

So is there going to an exernal sump to hold oil as well? What happens when the pan is sucked dry and the new pump starts to cavitate?

As with any dry sump system I would expect it to have an external reservoir.

Very nice!

Very well done.
Is there any interference with the exhaust headers?
Best of luck with the project.

Artie

so... with headwork and such , how fast can you spin an ej with this setup? (ballpark) looks bad a$$ btw

So is there going to an exernal sump to hold oil as well? What happens when the pan is sucked dry and the new pump starts to cavitate?

External tank will be utilized.

Very well done.
Is there any interference with the exhaust headers?
Best of luck with the project.

Artie

As andya stated earlier, he is test fitting with a bunch of headers. The goal is not to interfere with the exhaust manifold, accessories, etc.

Would love for a kit like this to be out when my motor is going together

since the corvette went dry sump i was interested ,

also i dont know what that one guy was talking about not running it off the timing belt. i mean where does he think his wet sump oil pump runs off of?

good work gents!


I mean WOW!!! First I did not bash the idea but thought a seperate gilmer belt would be nice..


Second dont talk out your butt, the factory oil pump is driven from the front of the crank not the timing belt if you would like I can supply pics for ya....

yea no doubt i just ment , the guy said he's using a kevlar belt , which gets its power from the crank, so i didn't know why that guy was beefin? he would get the same power to the oil pump either way .

This thread was started for information and feed back from intellects. Please don't cheapen it with arrogance, all inputs are welcome and there are no stupid questions... as long as it is not asked repeatedly. Before asking, please read the thread thoroughly to make sure your question has not been addressed to your satisfaction.
The goal of this particular unit is for ease of installation with basic tools and knowledge, without the added expense of machining. The pump assembly is a proven unit and I do not see any problems with efficiency or large drag issues.

like was asked earlier...with properly setup heads and a decent crank what are your expectations for the ability to this keep up with oiling? 8000rpms 9000rpms or even more?

Also, how is the secondary belt(the one that drives the actual pump) tightened? it looked like there was fancy method on the pulley itself on the pump but i couldnt tell for sure.

Sorry to drag it OT.
Any options for how many stages?
How much crank case vacuum will it pull/is there a built in vacuum reg?

like was asked earlier...with properly setup heads and a decent crank what are your expectations for the ability to this keep up with oiling? 8000rpms 9000rpms or even more?

Also, how is the secondary belt(the one that drives the actual pump) tightened? it looked like there was fancy method on the pulley itself on the pump but i couldnt tell for sure.

If all goes as tested, oiling issues will be a thing of the past. Nascar uses this design and runs less pressure (45psi) and revs beyond 9k.
The secondary belt is sized for the application and slides into place with the pump pulley which has a retainer collar on both sides. The belt is so short that a tensioner is not necessary and bearing load is minimized.

Sorry to drag it OT.
Any options for how many stages?
How much crank case vacuum will it pull/is there a built in vacuum reg?

Yes there are options for the number of stages which are limited only by the available space.
Vacuum will depend on engine seal (blow by) and will be monitored during testing. If necessary, resizing of scavange stages will be my option over introducing air into the system.

If all goes as tested, oiling issues will be a thing of the past. Nascar uses this design and runs less pressure (45psi) and revs beyond 9k.
The secondary belt is sized for the application and slides into place with the pump pulley which has a retainer collar on both sides. The belt is so short that a tensioner is not necessary and bearing load is minimized.
Very Nice! As far as oiling goes you say nascar can get away with lower oil pressure at RPM's generally higher than seen in the Subie world. Do you have any insight to other factors that allow them to live in high RPM environments and how they relate to our enignes? Such as: Crank oiling drilling, stroke length, rod length, piston/rod weights, main/rod journal diameters and areas? It would be neat to see the relative loadings between bearings, and how they deliver oil.
Thanks, Jordan

Nascar has been around for a long time and as technology advances with their funding, materials and manufacturing techniques also advance. Several things are not made public, but some do trickle down the pipeline!
With that said, think of the boiling point of water at atmospheric pressure. Now think of it under pressure... the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point.
As an engine runs, air is introduced into the crankcase via the breather system and some gets trapped in the oil, which leads to the 'foaming' issue. Air in oil reduces the lubrication quality so to reduce air pockets, the pressure is raised to keep these bubbles as small as possible. With a dry sump system, oil, air and contaminants are sucked out and seperated more effectively in the tank allowing less airated oil supply to the pump. Less pressure is now needed for the same effect and with lower pressure, less drag and more flywheel power.

Also, if you run larger clearences you dont need as much PSI because you have more flow. and more oil lubricating and moving in and out of bearings and heads and such lowers the temp of the oil along with having more oil in the system.

Also, if you run larger clearences you dont need as much PSI because you have more flow. and more oil lubricating and moving in and out of bearings and heads and such lowers the temp of the oil along with having more oil in the system.

This would seem logical, but the opposite is actually true. Tighter clearances with lower oil consumption proves for longer life and less windage. No need to rush the oil through now with a lower air content and less oil splashing on the rotating components leads to more HP.

This is getting interesting...
Aside from the windage benefits does the vacuum in the crank case help prevent air from being mixed with the oil simply because there is less air around? Also don't small oil particles fall out of suspension and back into the pan/sump at a higher rate in vacuum?
Last, As you talked about the boiling. Check my logic please, the amount of gas the oil could trap would be less in a low pressure crankcase than a high pressure crank case. Similar to how Scuba divers get the bends when ascending too fast, correct?

I am trying to get a feel for what the primary benefit of vacuum is as it relates to oil flow.

Now you are getting a hang of things! The advantages are many and with a sealed system under vacuum, the law of physics now come into play. 'An object in motion tends to stay in motion.' Also, having a vacuum would promote more even oil distribution through the system.. similar to vacuum moulding with resin.

Very good explanation of how things work... Seems very logical.


Just a quick question. So what happens with the standard oil pump? Will the pumps internals just be shelled, or are u making another part to take its place??

Cant wait to see this system complete and on my car..:)

So what happens with the standard oil pump? Will the pumps internals just be shelled, or are u making another part to take its place??


Yes and yes. For now, I will be testing with a modified stock housing. In the near future, there will be an optional billet piece for you. :D

How will you be modifing the stock breather system? You basically have a huge great air leak with the stock system as the dry sump sucks. As in the system sucks in air, not the system sucks :)

this is awesome, all of my questions so far have been answered, subscribed :)

So what happens with the standard oil pump? Will the pumps internals just be shelled, or are u making another part to take its place??


Yes and yes. For now, I will be testing with a modified stock housing. In the near future, there will be an optional billet piece for you. :D

hahaah Cant wait :D

dam ben and andy i need to go up there and check out what you guys are scheeming.. :), i got another suby

How will you be modifing the stock breather system? You basically have a huge great air leak with the stock system as the dry sump sucks. As in the system sucks in air, not the system sucks :)

There will be a balance 'TEE' between both heads and the block. No open passages to atmosphere ie capped ports including the pcv, although this is still up for debate because pump speed at idle may require a little manifold vacuum help.

a little ot but andy you got to show me how to read airbag codes -glen

a little ot but andy you got to show me how to read airbag codes -glen

If she is still talking through the action scene, buy her a house and move on!:furious:

Definately a sexy bit of kit and no doubt expensive. It would be ideal on a high rpm drag car or any competitive track car that's for sure :)

But I'm with the others, I don't like how it runs off the timing belt. Actually, I don't like anything running off that belt period. If it slips or the belt breaks you damage a lot of expensive engine internals real quick - before you even know something has gone wrong it is too late in most scenarios.

If you ran it of it's own (or another) pully, then that would be much more ideal. At least then if it slips or the belt breaks you have an oil pressure gauge to tell you to stop driving ;)

Definately a sexy bit of kit and no doubt expensive. It would be ideal on a high rpm drag car or any competitive track car that's for sure :)

But I'm with the others, I don't like how it runs off the timing belt. Actually, I don't like anything running off that belt period. If it slips or the belt breaks you damage a lot of expensive engine internals real quick - before you even know something has gone wrong it is too late in most scenarios.

If you ran it of it's own (or another) pully, then that would be much more ideal. At least then if it slips or the belt breaks you have an oil pressure gauge to tell you to stop driving ;)

look a little closer. it is run off its own belt. i even asked how he tensioned it.

The timing belt is the normal timing belt and goes only on the normal places. Their is a smaller "aux" belt run of a custom made pulley that is spun by the timing belt but isnt the actual timing belt.

look a little closer. it is run off its own belt. i even asked how he tensioned it.

The timing belt is the normal timing belt and goes only on the normal places. Their is a smaller "aux" belt run of a custom made pulley that is spun by the timing belt but isnt the actual timing belt.


This is correct... If the pump fails for some reason, the drive pulley will slip on the shaft first by design. If by some chance this fails, the next weak link will be the non-tensioned drive belt before affecting the integrity of the timing belt.

Any guess on ETA?

Any guess on ETA?
I am working double overtime to get this system bench tested then installed for a road course abuse before final ok for production. We never really know what gremlins may appear, but I'd like to think short term... possibly mid April.

That is aweful nice. I have a 2.7L engine with a heavy rod/piston and a short rod ratio that could benefit from this.

Finally someone in the States giving this a try, so far only Roger Clark has been able to pull it off.

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2/dsc07209ve6.jpg

double damn!1 that looks like a pace pump too...I give up:lol:

yea no doubt i just ment , the guy said he's using a kevlar belt , which gets its power from the crank, so i didn't know why that guy was beefin? he would get the same power to the oil pump either way .

did you really just say beefin?....and the concern isn't the belt failing so much as the extra load causing our already tempermental timing belt to jump timing even easier.

did you really just say beefin?....and the concern isn't the belt failing so much as the extra load causing our already tempermental timing belt to jump timing even easier.

Thank you because thats exactly what I was getting at..

ignore this post :p

did you really just say beefin?....and the concern isn't the belt failing so much as the extra load causing our already tempermental timing belt to jump timing even easier.

This is why rushing the system out the door would be a poor decision without thorough testing and safeguards in place for those 'mystery' surprises.
The location of the drive was a key choice and a modified belt guard for the crank gear will be necessary to prevent such an event.

yup, same reason I haven't sold my long rod kits to the public yet...though now the first prototype was sent out the door over 18 months ago.

I wish you the best of luck and I guess can save myself the hassle and can just buy your system once the R&D is done of course ;)

This is correct... If the pump fails for some reason, the drive pulley will slip on the shaft first by design. If by some chance this fails, the next weak link will be the non-tensioned drive belt before affecting the integrity of the timing belt.
AH np my bad. I thought when you said it ran off the timing belt, you meant it physically ran off the timing belt and that had me a little worried:)

If it has its own belt and something fails then as you explained that should in no way interfere with the timing belt - unless by freak chance, that it snaps and takes out the timing belt too ;)

So now that we are on the same page, there are safety features in the case of a failure. The standard timing belt is used and the pump shaft will probably snap before the drive is even affected. No part of the pump or components (except the drive) is housed with the timing belt.

PM me with an estimate in cost. Thanks.

we've stated repeatedly that there is no cost information, so nothing to PM you with.

Like Andy said earlier, "if you have to ask...."

for a general base price check cosworth's kit and add cost for lines and a tank. That should put you in the neighborhood.

isnt cosworth's kit sort of a hybrid?

Tank will run you around $350 + $100 for a breather can for it unless it's built in.

I would expect another $700-1000 for steel braided hose and fittings if you were to mount the tank in the back of the car.

Just an update to keep the members informed:
All the headers tested to date are either too close for comfort or interfere with the pump pulley. The alternative will be a custom cross pipe to allow a heat shield for the drive belt, which is a small price to pay for the benefit. Other aspects of the project are coming together quite well and with input from some of the most 'anal' critics, assurance of an easy install is foremost.

you calling me anal when i looked at it, but better crosspipe fitment and dual channals for the heads would be nice. :)

I'm still wiping your droole from the work area! ;)

So if the belt to drive it is so short, would it be possible to just use gears instead? Like how you can replace the timing chain in a V8 with gears. Or maybe you could use a chain instead?

So if the belt to drive it is so short, would it be possible to just use gears instead? Like how you can replace the timing chain in a V8 with gears. Or maybe you could use a chain instead?

This would throw out "keep it simple". Gears and chains have to be lubricated and enclosed, which makes it more technical for the average installer.

UPDATE!

We're making some good progress, and have a question for you guys out there. We'd like to place the tank in the engine compartment, and keep it as non-intrusive as possible, but need your input.

Our idea was to put the tank in the area of the battery and lower forward fender well, ahead of the wheel, behind the front bumper. This would require cutting into the battery "floor" to allow fitment. The tank would be completely hand fabbed to fit into the intricate spacing of this area, including bracketing and hardware. This will keep our lines short, the installation clean and stealthy, and eliminate the need to run oil lines through or under the car into the trunk/cabin. This will also allow you guys to keep your FMIC kits, as we don't want to obstruct fitment if we can avoid it.

Your feedback on this question is desired! Andy will be on hand to answer questions and field feedback.

Oil cooler normally fits there!

while i'm no expert on the matter. getting rid of weight in the front of a subaru is good. So i would think adding the entire oil resovoir right there may be ill advised.

Weight is a wash, remember the battery. The upside to this location is the the length of hose(very expensive) and if you do manage to blow a motor you usauly have to replace all that an line because metal is hard to get out. As long as he makes the tank servicable(can clean the inside) I say it's a great idea.

very true. Also be super simply to run an oil cooler right in that fog lamp hole in the bumper if you saw fit.

However moving that battery may be a bit of a pain probably worth it.

Because of location, the oil cooler can be integrated with the tank and a catch screen will be a part of the baffle system to filter any debris in the event of an engine failure. The oil lines will now be approximately 2 feet long, and yes, the tank will be servicable.
Relocating the battery is a lot less expensive and the weight difference is minimal compaired to a full size unit.

damn man...2ft of oil lines is freakin crazy. thats damn good.

good point Andy, my mistake. I forgot to mention that this would require relocation of the battery, a relatively straightforward process. The battery could be located to the passenger rear, to offset the tank weight.

Updates!
I want this for my next engine build haha.
I know the price is probably going to be high, but I hope as a whole it's more realistic than what Cosworth is charging for their incomplete kit.

If you can get it release in a few months i will want to purchase one as my high HP build is about ready except for the oiling system. Thanks.

bump for an awesome setup seen it in person and is clean but the revision should take in account for less drag and clutter :)

If you can get it release in a few months i will want to purchase one as my high HP build is about ready except for the oiling system. Thanks.

Noted and still working..... Trying to make the system as user friendly as possible. I've bought kits before that were more frustrating to install than they were worth and it is my intention to give you your money's worth.
Andy.

Did you mention that it would not be possible to have this setup work with the usual tubular exhaust manifolds out there?

Did you mention that it would not be possible to have this setup work with the usual tubular exhaust manifolds out there?

The street version will work with the stock manifolds and a replacement cross-pipe.... The HP version should work with all header types.

I'm guessing that the HP version will lose AC correct?

I'm guessing that the HP version will lose AC correct?

You will loose nothing... and gain ground clearance in the process. It will be the HP version because of the skill level required for install.

Just to be clear with the horsepower junkies out there, I've been a gear head since the age of 10. Nothing frustrates me more than to have parts that I worked and saved for, just to have to get rid of them because my new part would not fit. The whole idea behind this effort is to have a product that will not interfere with any existing component that you may already have. As stated above, the street version is designed to work with stock exhaust manifolds and a custom cross-pipe will be available for clearance issues. A custom header will be needed if you intend to use this system. The HP version will have a different drive and there should not be an exhaust issue then.

what will the price difference be (actually got any estimates on price yet)?

what will the price difference be (actually got any estimates on price yet)?

this question has been discussed ad nauseum and the answer remains the same... we will not release any pricing at this time.

Even if we wanted to, we couldn't. We are not a NASIOC vendor, so this sole purpose of this thread is to share information, progress, and pictures with you fine folks, and to, of course, to get your feedback and comments which are much appreciated.

so what's the price?...








:p yes, I'm kidding

You will loose nothing... and gain ground clearance in the process. It will be the HP version because of the skill level required for install.

Just to be clear with the horsepower junkies out there, I've been a gear head since the age of 10. Nothing frustrates me more than to have parts that I worked and saved for, just to have to get rid of them because my new part would not fit. The whole idea behind this effort is to have a product that will not interfere with any existing component that you may already have. As stated above, the street version is designed to work with stock exhaust manifolds and a custom cross-pipe will be available for clearance issues. A custom header will be needed if you intend to use this system. The HP version will have a different drive and there should not be an exhaust issue then.

Music to my ears...
Maybe then I can get rid of this POS moroso pan :mad::furious::diaf:

Did someone say the price?????













Just Kidding;) How long do you estimate your proto typing phase to be. And How much time do you need to come to market. Are you looking for anyone to proto type your product. I would pay your price and agree to your terms. It's a race part, so I know. No Warranty.

James

We have a performance team and all testing will be done in house with a few exceptions for elevation and atmospheric effects, which should not be an issue but all bases need to be covered.
I wish I could give you a specific release date (as I am getting anxious as well), but very few things go as scheduled especially when the human element is a part of the equation. ;)

Hurry up already, some of us want to run a dry sump..... Oh, 2 years too late for me :)

Take your time and do it right. To add to what Andya said above, it's worse to buy an expensive product and have it fall apart on you.

Will this work with the 2.5 na header as well? After reading posts and seeing the pics it looks like it will. The na header goes around the back side of the motor fyi.

Will this work with the 2.5 na header as well? After reading posts and seeing the pics it looks like it will. The na header goes around the back side of the motor fyi.

Definately.... There is not a cross pipe to deal with on the older NA engines. The new version however routes the exhaust similar to the turbo model.

More ground clearance would be fantastic.

bump!

Any updates, andya? How the testing going?

More ground clearance would be fantastic.


i agree also i wonder what it looks like with the header on there

yeah Andy, I'm quite curious how things are coming along :)

OK this design looks like a pretty cool idea and I am looking forward to seeing the final design and how it runs. However there is some bad information being thrown around in here and in the interest of keeping things honest lets get things straight.


With that said, think of the boiling point of water at atmospheric pressure. Now think of it under pressure... the higher the pressure, the higher the boiling point.
As an engine runs, air is introduced into the crankcase via the breather system and some gets trapped in the oil, which leads to the 'foaming' issue. Air in oil reduces the lubrication quality so to reduce air pockets, the pressure is raised to keep these bubbles as small as possible. With a dry sump system, oil, air and contaminants are sucked out and seperated more effectively in the tank allowing less airated oil supply to the pump. Less pressure is now needed for the same effect and with lower pressure, less drag and more flywheel power.

This would seem logical, but the opposite is actually true. Tighter clearances with lower oil consumption proves for longer life and less windage. No need to rush the oil through now with a lower air content and less oil splashing on the rotating components leads to more HP.

I think you are confusing some information that you have apparently researched. It is true that air is introduced to the crank case but where most of that air is introduced is past the rings around the pistons, not through the breather system. The breather system is there to relieve crankcase pressure. This becomes even more prominent in cars that have forced induction or high compression. You can figure on an average leakdown of 2% past the rings which will most likely increase once the rotating assembly starts moving. So if you take the CFM of your turbo and figure that at least 2% of that air is entering your crank case you will see that it is quite a lot.

It is also true that oil get frothed up pretty good in a crank case due to the spinning internals that create hurricane like winds inside the crankcase. It also happens from the oil being forced though the small bearing clearances. However increasing oil pressure is not going to do anything for you to prevent this. It will actually make it worse. If you increase the pressure it makes the oil into a milkshake and heats the oil because of the greater compression of the fluid. The reason pressure is increased is to keep the rod from bouncing off of the bearings as it reaches the bottom of the rotation. The other way this is done in the racing world is to increase the bearing clearance so you have a larger padding of oil at a lesser pressure. You either can push harder against it or give it a bigger cushion. We have seen race motors that use 22 gal/min of oil because of larger bearing clearances and spray bars on the valve train. If you are going to say its the valve train sprayers they only account for about 4 gal/min. This is how the NASCAR guys can run 9000 rpm at lower oil pressures. They have larger bearing clearances with more flow which can be attained with an aftermarket pump.

OK now the vacuum issue, I am not sure that you will pull a vacuum in this engine with that pump if you are running a turbo. Again lets revisit the idea that you will have at least 2% of the air from your turbo entering the crankcase. It is honestly probably a bit more due to the rings rocking in the cylinders with the pistons movement. Lets use a GT35R Garret for example, it flows 942 CFM so it is putting at least 18 CFM of air into your crankcase. In order for your pump to create any sort of vacuum it is going to have to flow at least 19 CFM. I am not saying it won't help the situation, the more you can evacuate, the better to an extent.

One last thing, I would be concerned with running the pump off of the timing belt as it is going to put a load on the cams, it may effect your cam timing some.

Oh and if you don't know who I am, I am part of the family that owns Peterson Fluid Systems, a manufacturer of wet and dry sump oiling products for auto racing. If you have any questions please ask, I am honestly not trying to beat you up I just hate to see misinformation because it spreads like a disease on the internet. It sounds like you have done some research, you were just confusing some thing. Honestly it happens to the best of us.

OK now the vacuum issue, I am not sure that you will pull a vacuum in this engine with that pump if you are running a turbo. Again lets revisit the idea that you will have at least 2% of the air from your turbo entering the crankcase. It is honestly probably a bit more due to the rings rocking in the cylinders with the pistons movement. Lets use a GT35R Garret for example, it flows 942 CFM so it is putting at least 18 CFM of air into your crankcase. In order for your pump to create any sort of vacuum it is going to have to flow at least 19 CFM. I am not saying it won't help the situation, the more you can evacuate, the better to an extent.


I run an oil dry sump (not the one in this thread) and I can confirm that under boost the 2 scavenger stages that I use cannot evacuate the crank case fully. I run a VTA catch can with check valve (pop off valve) so that it only opens if I get positive crank case pressure. It seems to be working very well.

I run an oil dry sump (not the one in this thread) and I can confirm that under boost the 2 scavenger stages that I use cannot evacuate the crank case fully. I run a VTA catch can with check valve (pop off valve) so that it only opens if I get positive crank case pressure. It seems to be working very well.

I fully expact that from the our small crank case with the large flow rate into it.

What pressure is the check valve set for? Atmospheric?

Have you ever monitored the check valve on the dyno so see if it is staying open under boost?

or better yet, are you running a vacuum/pressure gauge on the crankcase?

I fully expact that from the our small crank case with the large flow rate into it.

What pressure is the check valve set for? Atmospheric?

Have you ever monitored the check valve on the dyno so see if it is staying open under boost?

or better yet, are you running a vacuum/pressure gauge on the crankcase?

The check valve has a cracking pressure between 1 to 2 psi, I can blow through it to make it open.

On the dyno it would open for a moment as boost comes on, then again at the end of the run. Then again it was hard to find someone who wanted to lean over the engine bay while doing a run on the dyno :) We did not have a big bit of hose to connect to the check valve to run it into the car.

When I was first breaking in the latest motor it would chatter once in a while at idle. It stopped doing that after my first track day and the motor was more broken in.

Sorry gents for my absence. I have been working on the test engine, dealing with the machine shop and taking care of some custom builds.
In response to Sweethouse, there was no intention to mislead... Until the system is fully operational and tests are completed, the theory is sound based on other systems. The comparison with nascar engines is a little off because of the bearing loads and 'foot print' on the crankshaft. If we had wider rod bearings to take advantage of the oil cusion, there would be no argument. Unfortunately, what we have is a narrow bearing and a considerable amount of journal side clearance which is the reason for my testing with tighter tolerances to prevent hammering the rod bearings with high boost settings.
I have not had a chance to review the thread, but I believe the windage quote was in response to the question of open vs closed system as we are well aware of blow-by and the importance of relieving crankcase pressure. The question is.... can I get away with running a tighter ring end gap? Lower oil temps should drop expansion rate.

Bump...

+2 months, any updates Andy?

The las vegas engine builder that dailey engineering has a link for, prepared at least one of the ESX team Subaru engines. It would be great to see the kind of billet engineering mentioned above available to the STi.

Bringing this back from the dead. What's the update on your friend completing this setup?

Bumping again, is there any other dry sump systems for subarus?

There is in the UK look here and ask to speak to paul :

http://zenperformance.co.uk/

Cheers
Matt