I am thinking of doing water injection to keep my WRX from pulling timing. I have a few questions.

-What are the pros and cons. Noone seems to be using it but all the others (dsm, Audi, Toyota and Honda) are using it and praise it's ability to stop detonation.

- How does it work and can it be run without a stand alone computer. I have a unichip for now?

-Who makes a good system?

Anyone can chime in. I have been in an MR-2 Turbo with it and he was running some damn high boost. I think he was running like 18-19PSI daily. It seemed to run great.
I really just want my engine to last longer, and run a bit harder without pulling timing all the time.

Thanks for info
Tim Cengel

here is what i know about it. a very very fine mist of water and methanol is sprayed in your intake. it cools the intake charge and should make your ecu pull less timing. from what i am told for every degree of timing pulled there is about a 2-3 hp loss. so if you can save 5-10 degrees of timing you will be ok. then again if you have a bigger more effecient turbo, the air will be colder or if you have an aftermarket ecu you can program it not to pull so much timing. i have talked to many people who have this and they swear by it. it is in know way new technology. in wwII they used water injection in air crafts for the same thing. how it works is that you have a pressure switch ( that you can adjust) that gives power to a pump at a certain psi. once you start to boost it pumps water and pushes it at around 36psi through a small jet. you can either get a tank or use your windshield washer fluid. as far as the liquid goes. i have heard 50% water, 50% methanol works best, but never exceed 50% methanol. some people just use water and it works fine. a company that makes it is called aquamist. www.vividracing.com has the aquamist erl water injection kit for sale. the only downside to it in my eyes is that it cost $500 for the lowest kit.

Yeah, most of the people on this board are not big fans of water injection. I, on the other hand, think it could work great on our cars. You are right, LOTS of other turbo enthusiasts use it, and get good results.

Biggest con I can think of is the fact that the water runs out (possibly very frequently) and with that, so does your engine safety. There are ways around this though. Using pressure switches to turn it on and off, you can set the switch to come on only when you are in approach of detonation. Say your engine det's at 18lbs of boost, set it to come on at 15 psi, and you only run water when you're going to full boost. This would help save H2O.
Not so much a water conservation technique, but you could set it to come on if the throttle is open below a certain % AND seeing high boost, that way you could combat the high egt's that plague ball/spring MBC's. But, IMHO, if you are going to go with WI, get a quality boost controller first.

Pros:
Cleans your engine out. The steam loosens all the carbon deposits inside.
Better gas mileage(when you run it).
Cooler intake charge
Cooler EGT's
Allows you to run a higher boost level than normal


Cons:
Runs out
Need to find a location for a tank
Runs out
Good kits are expensive
Runs out
Some take a little time to get the right "jetting" for the nozzle, but this will happen with anything adjustable, as you have to find the right setup for YOUR car.

I only emphasize the "runs out" because it does, and it is an extra thing to fill up every few days/week. If you could set it up to only need filling once a week, you could just do it when you fill up on gas. It could be kinda like a nitrous system, where you only run it when you switch to the high setting on your boost controller.

go to www.aquamist.co.uk
They have a very competent systems that require no outside managment. They also have some to be used in conjunction with standalones. I personally don't have the money, or agenda to do this, YET. So, if you do end up trying WI out, please be sure to post and let all of us know.

peace,
Tim

Firstly, the ERL/Aquamist pump has a working pressure of circa 140psi, not 36psi. This is why the Aquamist system is so good at producing a very fine spray/mist, if used with their water jets.

I have been using the system for about 2 1/2 yrs on my car, and have NEVER run out of water, or come even close. I use a 12ltr boot mounted tank, and day to day driving, it lasts me WEEKS. On track, it's good for about an hours use, before I need to top it up.

You can work out how much water the system uses per min' flat out, and allow yourself a safety margin. Depending on jet size, you could be using upto 250cc's per min'.

Regardless of what tank you use, fit a low level sender, and led on the dash.

I'd also suggest fitting an adjustable air intake temp switch in line, with the pressure switch. So that the system will only trigger over a certain boost, and temp threshold.

Happy.

Happy, where did you mount the water nozzles? I'm trying to figure out a good place to put them on a car with TMIC. IIRC Aquamist's instructions says to put them after the IC and before the TB, there is so little distance between there on our cars with TMIC.
The location is quite critical, if you put them in a bad location, the water mist might condense into droplets and that's not a good thing and you want to make sure each cylinders get an equal amount of spray.

Oh btw, my friend runs the Aquamist system in his 500+ whp 300ZX-TT with great results. He says it's like running higher octane fuel. Those cars come stock with a low fluid warning light too, so it works out just great for them.

Originally posted by Boostup!
Happy, where did you mount the water nozzles? I'm trying to figure out a good place to put them on a car with TMIC.

In this PDF (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/cp/fitting1s.pdf) on the Aquamist site they recommend mounting it before the intercooler on our cars due to the heat soak characteristics of the TMIC.

JD
He who wants water injection and an A/L intercooler ;)

Water injection is foundation upon which I am building my WRX.

You can see my implementation here (http://users.adelphia.net/~suparu/Water_Injection/Water_Injectionf.htm).

Bob
Bob's '02 WRX Project (http://users.adelphia.net/~suparu/)

Originally posted by Happy
Firstly, the ERL/Aquamist pump has a working pressure of circa 140psi, not 36psi. This is why the Aquamist system is so good at producing a very fine spray/mist, if used with their water jets.

I have been using the system for about 2 1/2 yrs on my car, and have NEVER run out of water, or come even close. I use a 12ltr boot mounted tank, and day to day driving, it lasts me WEEKS. On track, it's good for about an hours use, before I need to top it up.

Happy.

Do you use tap water, filtered water, or deionized water?

Also, where are the water injectors placed?

Thanks :)

I use distilled water (~ $1 from the supermarket), and denatured alcohol (~ $4 ).

I have a 2.5 qt reservoir in the rear and inject the water into my intercooler pipe just after the intercooler (my intake is long).
You would simply have to not pay attention to run out of water.

If I am hard on the gas all the time and drag racing from every light, my 2.5 qt would last a few days. With normal driving it would last the whole tank of gas.

As far as the cost I paid under $300 by using a Shurflo pump, and aquamist lines and nozzles (the most common setup for DSM's).
My system is boost activated by a 10 psi switch. With this system you would buy different size nozzles to determine how much flow you get. You could also add extra nozzles if needed, since the pump can handle the load.
There is a high speed valve option available which takes a pulse width signal so you can vary the output using a standalone ECU or something like that.

Here are some pics of my system.

http://home.earthlink.net/~rrwarren/Galant/wi1.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~rrwarren/Galant/wi2.jpg
http://home.earthlink.net/~rrwarren/Galant/wi3.jpg

Thanks Everyone!
Ive brought this up a few times, and all i get from most is either i dont know much about it, or, and this is my favorite... Its Just a Band Aid for bad tuning... LMAO
I just got an sti boot tank, and need a few more engine mods before this is necisarry.
Yall didnt happen to mention that with WI you could run just about ass gas without a problem, witch ive seen become a problem out in the middle of nowhere with someone with an older Visinu stage 1. No good gas = trying to drive without boost till you find it. Not fun lol
ANyway, im glad there aer a few more here that see the benifits as i do.
Ill be keeping an eye on this thread for future reference.
Thanks again,
Trent

Originally posted by russthelm
My system is boost activated by a 10 psi switch. With this system you would buy different size nozzles to determine how much flow you get. You could also add extra nozzles if needed, since the pump can handle the load.


I'm looking for some type of device like your boost activated switch. Can you tell me who makes yours or where to get something similar?

Thanks,
Carlo

Wow,

Thanks for all the info guys. It seems like it's a good idea. I have decided to use an upgraded top mount intercooler instead of a front mount to keep lag to a minimum. I think combined with the water injection this could be a great idea.

I already fill the tank for my intercooler water sprayer so I am used to that already.

As soon as I do this I will make sure to take many pictures of the install and provide a good right up.

Any additional comments would be great.

Note: this info is second hand. Stuff I picked up reading technical docs and talking to Shiv.

There is a possible negative effect to water injection. If you don't tune for it there is a decent chance you're going to lose a small amount of power by injecting water into your cylinders. However, with the proper tuning you can push the envelope a bit more, as intake and in-cylinder temps will be down and therefore the possibilities of knock are reduced. I'm not sure how the WRX ecu alone would react to it. . . I would be curious to see if it would start tuning more agressively. Anyone have some hard data on this? Maybe some DeltaDash logs?

JD

I'm not looking for more power at the same boost. I'm looking to be able to run 18 PSI every day without any problems and possibly 20 PSI at the track. I love putting race gas in the car but water is sure a lot cheaper. 100 octane costs me about $ 40.00
for a full tank. You can see where the $500 initial cost of the water injection would pay itself off.

Where can I get the aquamist kit. Vivid sells the ERL kit. I would like to compare them.

Oh yeah, as soon as it is installed and running I will make an appointment at TurboXS to do a dyno tuning. This way I can get true data on horsepower improvements. I hope to be able to dyno about 280-300 Horsepower at the wheels.

Found this (http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=54365&referrerid=767) in the Technical Forum archives. It has comments from shiv, as well as a link to a very lengthy discussion on 22b.com (http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000004.html)

-Dennis

OMG!!!:eek: I got sucked into that thread. It is LONG. Lots of good information being repeated. Worth the read though, VERY informative, especially if you aren't familiar with the merits/drawbacks of WI.

Tim

Really good thread, Thanks.

Now that I have seen the new TXS TMIC I think the two would be great together. I imagine I could run really cool and safe with that combo. I definately need more info on the water injection though. It never came to me that the water takes up space of air and gas. I figured all the oxygen in the water would make the car faster, not slower. Great info so far though.

I would suggest that if you're interested in W.I., check out "suparu's" website: "Bobs 02 wrx project" as noted in previous post in this thread.

Bob is an ex-Corvette modifier who isn't one to blow his own smoke, but I think he really knows what this is all about. Very serious and researches thoroughly; not a person for fads or gimmicks.

spd wgn

I agree with (REO)spd wgn(I'm probably not as funny as I think, but humor me and laugh), suparu's work is impressive. His kit, that he put together himself mind you, is IMHO, top notch stuff. Well thought out and well executed. I'm tempted to ask him to put another kit together for me, I'd pay top $.

There is tons of information to read on WI. Go and research the hell out of it. I originally looked it up for my supercharged M3 project. It was an eaton blower, so it would have been very difficult to implement an intercooler in my plan. Well, sadly, that dream never got realized and I sold my baby the other day(after getting hit by a City of Austin garbage truck and getting stiffed on the $$$ for the damage). Long story and way off topic.

Tim

I do water injection on my turbocharged SVX. It seemed like it reduced detonation, but I have no documentation to that effect or dyno results. I used a $200 spearco system. $500 is way too much for what you get. A small pump tank, tubing, and pressure switch. I should start selling them! Even $200 is too much for this setup IMHO. For me it is just piece of mind. I have not tried methanol. I'm sure the results would improve. I was just worried about corroding my expensive fuel injectors with that stuff. It is harsh on engine parts.

What pressure switch are you using, cdigerlando?

Also, nobody would happed to have a copy of this lying around, eh?
TITLE: Alcohol-water injection for high compression engines Authors:James C. Porter of Northern Regional Research Lab., Peoria, IL. Document Number: 500042

Lots of other sweet sounding titles here

Water injection (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/reference/refer.html)

Would there be any advantages/disadvantages to running water injection AND intercooler spray at the same time? It seems to me that if you had a good pump and you only needed to spray the intercooler when you wanted to inject water (high boost), then you could actually share the system and trigger both together.

If you have water injection (before the intercooler) would you even need an intercooler spray? I found some links to some 1-5 gallon fuel cells and it wouldn't be too hard to set one up as a resevoir.

My current boost control system runs stock boost levels at anything less than WOT and a throttle switch triggers the MBC to raise boost when needed. It would be incredibly easy to also wire in a relay and trigger water injection or even water injection/intercooler spray any time the boost is triggered. Does this sound feasable or even remotely worth the work? Of course a shared system would mean you'd probably want to run water only or a very low concentration of alcohol.

Mike Robinson
2002 WRX Sport Wagon

Make sure you don't run out of water mix, engine go boom under high boost det, I would think. The IC sparayer will go through lots of water if it is boost triggered. Some discussion has gone on about a more inteligent and effective spray management.

One other thought, the nozels/injectors are going to be flowing different volumes, and I would assume at different pressures (really fine mist for injection, and larger drops for IC sprayer) could one pump service both? If the water injectors are after the turbo, must take into account the pressure difference from the boost, you'll need to overcome XX PSI of boost to get the water out.

I would have to disagree with zax. With a properly setup system, I would have some sort of high boost disable incase the water ran out. But, this is one of the big con's anti-WI advocates use, so I won't take that away from them, besides, with a poorly designed system, this is a very real problem.

I did have a question though, and I guess it sorta depends on the pump you're using, but would pressurizing the supply line TO the pump help pump efficiency? Or might it damage the parts designed to run on 0 pressure(well, atmospheric)? Suppose it is a Surflow(like suparu's(bob's)) or ERL/Aquamist pump

I stated in the N2O IC sprayer thread that I am designing a WI/IC sprayer system. If used solely as an IC sprayer, I've come up with a way to have a pressurized system without using a pump(sort of). If the prototype water sprayer works, AND its easy(and cheap) enough to source parts, I will offer a kit that should be substantially cheaper than most kits out there. Again, this depends on price and availability of parts. I am awaiting my tank to begin the building process. I'll let you know how it works.

So, for a WI system, will a pressurized feed to the pump help/hurt the pump performace?

Thanks,
Tim

Tonight, on the way home, I got all the proof I needed that WI works.

Highway cruising, 65-70, I usually see 1450+ F egt's.
Tonight, in the rain, on the highway, I was getting 1350-1390F, cruising, consistently. The temp only shot above 1400 when I dipped in the throttle(15%) and made a few(6-7) pounds of boost.

Still on the same highway, same speed, rain stops (or I pull out of the storm), and almost immediately, my egt's go back up to 1400-1410 F. The road was still wet and cars throwing up all kinds of mist.

15 miles later, highway dry, same speed, temps go up to 1450-1475F.

I didn't do any WOT trials as there was a bit of traffic and it was wet, but I'd be interested to see what the rain, let alone true WI, did for WOT egt's.

When I saw the "low" reading on my egt, I was careful to drive as consistently as possible to see if was actually the rain/or lack of that caused the temp change. All I know is that I've never had that low a cruisin egt.

Peace, and goodnight,
Tim

The "running out of water" excuse is SO LAME. Just fit a loe level sender, and an "LED" on the dash !! How many of you guys ever run out of fuel ??????

I've done a fair bit of testing with pumps v jets v water pressure v atomisation, and if you want to make your own kit up, you really need to do the same.

Experimenting with an IC water spray is one thing, pumping water into your engine, quite another.

The Aquamist pumps run at 10bar/145psi for a reason !

Happy.

I agree that the water depletion excuse is lame.
If you're talking to me about the differences between an IC sprayer and WI, I KNOW.:cool: I've done many, many hours of research on it. What I was talking about in previous posts was only a pressurized supply to the high pressure pump, in addition to pressuring the IC sprayer lines.

So, my question still stands, will pressurized lines TO a high pressure pump help/hurt the pump?

Thanks,
Tim

Ummm, DJWRX, if that is how you dissagree, then what would it be like if we did agree on something? :lol:

No doubt that if you took the time/money to set up indicators (like fuel level) or checks, you would be a moron to run out of water.

IF your IC sprayer water source dries out, the worst things would be less IC cooling and a possible burnt out pump if left swithced by boost sensor a really long time. No biggie.

Using the same water source for water injection w/o checks or levels or gauges, increases the possibility of running dry, nes pas? That was the only point I was making. IF you tuned timing, F/A ratio and other performance parameters around the water injection and then it is no longer there (i.e. you B moron), bad things could happen. It is not an excuse to not do water injection, but something to watch if running two sprayers off of one unmonitored source.

On your pump question, if you are using a wet(submerged) pump, or an impeller design, pressurization of intake line would be good IMHO. I would take more caution with a diaphram or piston pump, esp with the high pressures involved.

If you put together a solenoind and switch in your setup, I'd buy it. I like the CO2 as a pressure source instead of pump for the IC.

CO2 would work, but then you have to buy CO2. Distilled water is cheap and engine electricity is free. You would definitly run out of CO2 more frequently than forgeting to fill the water tank, which I did weekly. You don't use much.

Zax, you're right, we pretty much agree. I just get so annoyed when the "doubters" say you're gonna blow up your engine if the water runs out(not saying you're a doubter). Well, in your scenario, with an engine tuned to run with WI, it WOULD be BAD to run out of water.
I was just thinking, as were you, that with any well thought out system, you wouldn't run out of water, or atleast you would know when you were and there would be an automatic low pressure, mild map setting to kick in.
Ok, so now that we've gotten the confusion out of the way;) On to my plans.
I bought my H20 tank today, 5 gallon capacity, stainless steel, holds up to 130 psi. When it gets here, I'll get the size of the fittings and get stainless lines plumbed to pressure the tank(from an undisclosed location) and lines up to the IC. (with a h2o level sensor, of course)
Once I get a good(read:high pressure) pump and good(read:atomizing) nozzle(s), I'll start putting my WI system in. Boost and intake air temp activated switches. If the pump (ERL or Surflow) doesn't take well to the pressurized feed, I'll just stop the pressurization of the tank and get another h2o pump(this one, higher flow than WI pump, but not as high pressure)
If this pressurized tank thing doesn't work at all, I'm going to a CO2 IC sprayer.

Tim

I used to run both WI, and WS, when I had a TMIC.

These were fed independently from the boost tank, with twin pumps, and hoses.

I use small helper pumps in the boot, because of the long run, my system was getting knocked out, under accelleration. I can't comment on other brands of pump, but this works VERY well with the Aquamist's.

Personally, I would never run both WI, and WS off the same pump. For two reasons,

1) there would be too much pressure drop when both systems activated.

2) I would rarely need them on at the same time.

My WS system used both pressure, and temp to activate it. It was originally set up on intake temp only, but this caused havock in traffic jams, and if I was queing for the strip. Intake temps rose, the WS came on, and everyone thought my rad was leaking. It also used loads of water this way. So I added a pressure switch, set to about 2psi. This way it only came on whe it was needed.

I use WI for power. Running out of water just isn't an issue for me. I have a 12lt tank, and the low level sender is set at 4lt's.

Happy.

I think people are getting confused about my system plans because I'm not posting EVERYTHING about it. I plan on offering a water spray kit eventually, should supplies and cost work out.

This won't need a pump, again, if everything works out as planned.

I plan on running my WI off the same tank, but NOT the same pump.

Temp and Boost activated for WI
Manual switch for IC sprayer.

Tim

CO2 would work, but then you have to buy CO2. Distilled water is cheap and engine electricity is free. You would definitly run out of CO2 more frequently than forgeting to fill the water tank, which I did weekly. You don't use much.

Me thinks that the CO2 is for the pressure source, not the coolant to be sprayed. $5 for a 20oz tank or $12 for a 180 FT^3 tank fill is not bad. The total expanded volume is more than you could carry in water volume, you would run through many tanks of water before needing to "gas" up.
you are right, electric water pump would work to, but I like the idea of being different.

How is injecting CO2 into the airstream going to help? It has a very small Ct and will do very little. You could spray it on the intercooler, but I doubt it will work better than water, and it will be expensive, and a pain when you need more and the local parts store is fresh out. As far as a pressure source.....I see no reason to go to this extent of complexity. You are not going to talk me into even thinking this is a good idea. Different yes. I'm done with this discussion. Let me know how it goes.

The CO2 would not be the pressure source. Too complex, no need. The CO2 would be sprayed over the intercooler, not into the air stream.

CO2 is CHEAP. I get 20lb bottles for $14. That would last several weeks, easily. CO2 would work way better than water. Cold enough to form a frost on the IC. Can't do that with water, not even iced water.

This would be relatively easy to set up too. A tank, lines that can hold the pressure, a solenoid and some nozzles, oh and some sort of switch, pressure, temp, manual, you call it.

Tim

If I were building a car for the 1/4 mile then CO2, nitrous, or an A/W intercooler with an ice reservoir could provide super cool air. The water spray is more for practical everyday and rally use. That is what is used in the WRC. Water is cheaper but not as cold. I get it for $1.19 per thousand gallons fresh from the tap.

Distilled water for injection, which is what this thread is supposed to be about, is more expensive. But not $20 every couple of weeks, and handy at the local supermarket. It has the effect of lowering the temperature and making the air itself more effective at storing and transferring heat out of the engine during exhaust. They are two different animals. Making the air denser can make your engine temps go up. Hence making the air colder can cause problems too if you are not properly tuned to deal with it.

www.darklightning.com

He has a Talon TSi AWD with WI that he has been running for a while now AND fab'd himself...check it out or email him for more info. It does work, and he has numerous failsafe measures and precautions taken. It's cool cause he has it hooked up so it won't come on unless the main power is on, the boost is minimum of a certain psi, and the throttle or temp (can't remember this one) is at a certain level...kinda cool for cheap! Peace-

WRX34

Direct WI link: http://membersites.namezero.com/jogauthi.nmu.edu/gi/wi.htm

Oh and he lives in Northern MI so he explains what to do about winter..and making it better than water, 50/50 mixes w/ alcohol;)