I know that it's possible to do a motor swap and retain the stock USDM 2.5 RS drivetrain but what are the advantages/disadvantages of going this route???

Here's what I'm assuming so far:

Advantage(s)
Retain stock driveline
"Ease" of swap.
Reduced cost of swap

Disadvantages
???

Anyone have other opinions on this swap route???

-mykr.

Mike,

You will see all the advantages soon...:devil:

Well, theoretically the low gearing of the RS will improve accelleration, but hurt your top end. I don't particularly care about going 150mph(or whatever the top speed of a WRX may be), but getting out of the hole faster is what I want. The problem is that the spacing may not be optimized for the WRX powerband. Since they're so close together, you may end up shifting above the optimal point. Then again, it could be better, I don't feel like doing math today :-D

David - You gonna be around tonight for the Denny's meet??? We can talk about it then. :D

mrbell - when you get time, please explain more. :lol:

-mykr.

Check out i-speedusa.com. They specialize in the WRX swap and you can pm skywalker or christoph1371 here on the NASIOC.

bolts up fine perfectly... dont worry about it

you will need the ECU (or a stand alone)and wiring harness and a WRX/Legacy turbo crossmember.

I have the exact comb (WRX motor with RS Tranny-back) The car pulls hard in all gears. True you loose a little on 5th, but gain so much throughout the normal driving range of the car.

Personally I don't care driving fast in a straight line, my fun comes with driving in very twisty roads where the close-course gearing of the RS allows the WRX motor to really shine.

Also remember the STi's in Japan all have 4.111 and 4.444 final drives and really close ratio gearing. Just something to consider.

Cheers

EddyL.

Eddy - So yer saying there's no real disadvantages to it. What's the final drive of a stock RS and WRX??? I too am not looking for peak absolute power and being able to claim my car can go 170 mph. I want something I can drive on a daily basis without having to worry about reliability and something that's fun @ the rallyX or whatever. :)

Keep the discussion going fellas!!!

-mykr.

Here's another question on the motor only swap...

The WRX uses a pull type clutch and the RS uses a push type clutch (so I'm told.) What clutch would this hybrid use???

-mykr.

You use the same type of clutch with the transmission that you are going to use. If you plan on using your existing RS tranny, then it would be a push type clutch.

RS fd=4.11
WRX fd= 3.9

Well this idea has just sparked a ton of questions. Has anyone else done this swap? How is it compared to total WRX drivetrain swap vs turbo RS vs WRX engine/RS trans swap? Sorry to kind of hijack this thread. Well I am just wondering the basics... cost, reliabilty, problems had/have/will have...anything else I should know. Thanks so much... peace ~Erick

Also remember the STi's in Japan all have 4.111 and 4.444 final drives and really close ratio gearing. Just something to consider.

Actually, the RS gears are closer then the STi. I used to think the STi gears where closer as well, but then I calculated it, and found out that they aren't.

-Wes

Erick - Here's my take on your questions:

Reliability - If obtained though a reputable dealer, the motor should be fine. IMO, it'll be a bit more stout that a 2.5 w/a turbo since the motor was designed for boost from the get go.

Cost - I've been talking to a reputable Subaru shop and it's about the same as a Ludespeed stage II w/a stand alone EMS. It might actually be a bit cheaper if I went w/a stock WRX ecu.

Problems - ??? That's a main thing I wanted clarified in my posting this.

-mykr.

Problems with using the RS tranny:
Excessive G-Forces on launch can cause wrinkles on the back of your clothes.
148MPH top speed (approx) can get you tickets
Optimum gears for SoloII might help you win.
Excessive tire wear from taking the long way home.
Pissin' off other WRX owners with faster 60' times

The only real problem I can think of...

























uh... yeah... HAVE FUN MAN!

Ahhhh, this is just the issue i've been pondering. The first thing I would try to do is find out if there is any significant strength differences between the two transmissions. I also agree that the closer gear ratio seems more desirable from a drivability standpoint. someone mentioned that the RS has a shorter overall drive ratio than the STI, what about the STI RA? Finally, given the extra 1500 or so RPM that the EJ20T would give us, could 60+ mph be reached in 2nd gear?

probably real close...

You wouldn't quite be able to hit 60. You would be at redline at 58.1! You would need to up the redline a tad to hit 60. Se this thread below, where I calculated and compared the RS and STi ratios.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268952

-Wes

Why wouldn't you be able to hit 60mph? The WRX's redline is 7K something, unlike the 6250 the RS's have.

Rebel already calculated the top speed with the higher redline.
RS's CAN'T do 58 in second gear.

ImprezaRSX is correct, when I posted before I had calculated it with a 7K redline, which is what the WRX has. In an RS, you can only hit roughly 51.875 in 2nd. If you had a WRX engine with a redline of 7250, with an RS trans, you could hit sixty in second.

-Wes

I know you can't hit 60 in an RS, I have one. I was saying you can hit 60 with an EJ20/RS combo.

Ok ADAM you're missing this again.

7k redline in WRX, in second gear is 58MPH
IF you up the redline to 7250 you just barely hit 60MPH.

Second gear COULD go up to 60 if you MODIFY the ECU setpoints.
Same thing for an RS, if I MODIFIED the ECU I COULD go 60 in second.

I hit 58.3 mph in second gear right at 7000rpm in my configuration. (WRX motor, Stock ECU, RS Tranny) The extra 750 rpm give me a little more but not enough. Also it gets there VERY fast.

Oh....the only drawback with a RS tranny.....You hit redline way too soon. It pulls so hard all the way to redline that you don't know that you are there until the ECU causes fuel-cut. Power feels so linear, there is no peaking off at the hi rpms, I feel that it could pull another 500rpms before I felt power taper out. I kind of wish I had a STi's 8000 rpm. I take that back.....I do wish.

All in all I love this configuration. It feels as it should be this way from the factory.

Cheers

EddyL.

EddyRS is doing the right thing and moving the debate of if a RS trannied WRX can hit 60 in 2nd back to the original questions. I say who really cares if it can hit 60 in 2nd gear...let's talk about the motor swap. :D

-mykr.

yea, I would like to here more from people who have had it done. I was looking at a WRX, but I need a new house more than a 25k car. So now I am thinking wither an RS or L, and a swap from Lachute in CND. I and thinking that the L might be a better way to go. Less money up front.

Anyone here dealt with Lachute? I am going to give them a call soon, prior to buying a car. I want their input.

Thanks,

Anyone want a nice use LandRover!!! help my "L-WRX" project :)

geronimo66 - dsmawd (Trent) had his STi swap done @ Lachute. I've been talking with Mark @ Lachute about a swap. Trent had nothing but good things to say and so far they're my first choice if I go the swap route. Trent is in Lansing MI and might be coming down for a Xmas meet in Ann Arbor. Check out the Midwest forum. That's where most of us congregate.

Oh yeah, Trent got the full monte STi swap. :D

-mykr.

The swap goes great. Its been 7000 miles since the motor went in and no problems since then. The only problem that I have is that 1st gear is a bit too short when you get on it. Other than that, the driveability is great.

That is true, 1st is a little on the short side. I'm having to shift right away.

One of the advantages of doing the conversion with a lower rated car (and I mean that only as the insurance sees it) is that you do not have to pay the insurance rates of a WRX. My insurance company knows that I did the engine swap and will cover the cost, but are still charging me the price of a RS :D (Insurance is State Farm).

Cheerio

EddyL.

Well, on the tranny side. . . a turbo 2.5rs motor will have more torque.... and not only that, your comparing a Custom turbo job to a OEM turbo job. . .

How are people getting around the OBD2 emission testing??? Stock 2002 WRX ECU??? I'm assuming that a JDM WRX ECU won't have these features.

Another thing to think about. :(

I want to be emission legal if I do ANYTHING (turbo kit or swap) and IL tests via OBD2/sniffer test.

-mykr.

I believe Lachute has the OBD2 thing worked out. It is one of their trade secrets that goes into their swaps/kits.

A couple of things that I have questions about are:

-Exhaust, what exhaust will a swap use? (JDM WRX (GC8) = Expensive)

-How important will a rear LSD be now that I would have alot more power? My 98 RS does not have one.

-What kind of aftermarket would be available? I know there is tons of stuff out there but would it all have to be obtained internationally or would some of the USDM WRX stuff work on an older JDM engine (Like a V2 or V3 Engine)?

Dan

Dan - Exhausts can be made relatively inexpensively or Vendors can probably source them for about the same $$$ as a GD WRX system.

OBD2 - I'll have to talk to Mark @ Lachute about the OBD2 question.

Aftermarket options - Most GC WRX stuff should work fine on this type of hybrid WRSX Both cars are very similar and only minor modifications would be needed in most cases. :D

-mykr.

What's OBD2? ;)

Mike, don't worry about since you can just go to my guy Jose with a six pack and $50 and he'll hook you up. ;)

As far as the exhaust goes, any exhaust for a new age wrx will work on a gc/gf platform. The only thing that needs to be done is a couple of the exhaust hangers need to be moved in order to fit the stock locations. I have a BPM GT exhaust on my conversion, and there are no problems with fitment.

Mike, don't worry about since you can just go to my guy Jose with a six pack and $50 and he'll hook you up.
IF I did do the swap, is Jose gonna be around when I need to get it tested??? :rolleyes:

-mykr.

FWIW, if you are able to provide the proper paperwork proving that your JDM swap was from a newer year than your existing car, I believe all your car needs to do is pass the sniffer. I haven't double-checked this with my local tuner though.

In any case, Lachute can do the OBD-II conversion for the older JDM engines so you will supposedly be ok anyhow. My problem is that Lachute has to be around 2k miles away from me...

-Jon

It'd be an older WRX motor (97 or so) and I've got a 01. :(

I still need to talk to Mark @ Lachute about it.

-mykr.

In CA, at least, the donor car needs to be a U.S. spec in order to pass the smog regulations. Don't know about the rest of the U.S. though.

I heard mention of a swap into an L, the L tranny is differant gearing than either the RS or the WRX. I don't know how this tranny works out interms of gearing when matched with a WRX engine. I know with my L turbo it's loads of fun. Oh and as that question about the Open rear diff, you can ofcourse get away with it but you get some nice inner wheel spin when powering out of a corner. Both my L-T and my RS-T suffer from this problem. With the torque of the RS it was very common to smoke the inner tire when accelerating hard from a corner. It's not as much of a problem with the L and probably even less with the WRX.
Joshua

Josh, I-speed has done wrx to L and OBS swaps and kept the tranny. They said it was all good.
My L sure doesn't smoke any tires anytime. The clutch slips way before that. I see where an LSD would come in handy on an L-t and it just so happens that 3.90 lsd are out there from old subies. WaC installed one on his car.

Geronimo.
If you are doing the swap, I saw some really cheap Ls for sale in the Ontario autotrader last week. A couple for under 5k C$. You might want to check that out. Also there are two WRX motors complete for sale in Toronto Subaru Club. Go on a road trip to buy an L wagon, stuff the motor in the back. Buzz over to LaChute and there you go. You could be back home for less than USD $10K.

Trent's (DMSAWD) swap was a VIII (1995?) into a 98 OBS. You might try him to find out about smog and such. I am pretty sure Michigan has no smog laws. (could it be the influence of auto markers?)

The 2.5 tranny will eventually give out if you are constantly doing hard 1st - 2nd pulls that the turbo will force you to try frequently.
Go for the WRX RA 5spd 4.444 tranny it pulls harder than any car I've ever been in. If you want the ultimate in boxes get the 6 spd STI tranny and have the gearing changed to 4.444. This will be expensive, but if you like the down low gearing of the 4.444 then you will either have to sacrifice top end comfort or get another gear. The sound of the STI is great but having to push 5000rpm's to stay up with traffic gets a bit loud. If you have been patient enough to save money for that engine, then go ahead and do the whole project right, get the JDM tranny too.



$8000+ full STI motor, RA tranny, link stand alone

****priceless sleeper car, puttin most others to sleep:alien:

wow thats not bad, I am owed 5k for a side job I did an was planning on useing that for the L. Then If I can get 8-10k for the LandRover their is my STI swap.

That is another thing I was wondering about, what is the difference in cost to performance between the USDM WRX and the STi. If the cost isn't huge I would much rather have the Sti. I am hoping to have 10k, plus whatever I sell my mustang for -4-6k.

If I can't make a crazy WRX for that somthing is wrong.


Any one have ball pack cost of their swap at Lachute?

You should look on the Lachute site and call them. They have several STi motors for sale for around $13,500 Cdn. You can get a US WRX motor for substantially less.
Trent paid somewhere around $2k Cdn for the swap labour but there are lots of extras like crossmember, exhausts, swaybars, and do dahs. Better plan to double that.

Whats the url for the Lachute site?

I am currently undertaking an RS-WRX swap. I am getting valves repaired on my MY02 WRX engine and am waiting on some parts. I was wondering what parts I will need to complete a drivetrain swap as well. I am planning on going with the 2002 WRX drivetrain. I was going to use the drive shaft, rear diff, front and rear half-shafts. As well I was going to use the hubs and brakes. I was wondering if this was all possible? I am doing most of the wrenching myself, with help from some professionals here and there. I'd appreciate anything you guys can input.

Also, the 1998 RS that I bought has an AT, and that is why I am not using the RS tranny. Also I do a lot of highway driving so the longer gearing is a plus! Thanks guys!

The Lachute URL is --> http://www.lachutesubaru.com/

nobody has any comments at all???

MMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm K....

What makes the Sti tranny so much better? Why not a dog box?
http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/barking_box.htm (besides the noise)

And the v7 motors have VVT and the previous ones dont, correct?

_b

Boost4U - I believe you really only need the differentials, motor and tranny to do the swap. I believe the 1/2 shafts are reusable from your RS.

Fat Tits - I think you're correct with the VVT statement.

The RS tranny is essentially an STi V3 or so unit.

-mykr.

one thing that sucks about the RS tranny is that you will get pretty bad gas mileage cruising on the highway. it just sucks this these swaps aren't as easy as honda and nissan ones. my friends and i swapped an sr20det in just under 6 hrs with wiring and all. i think the problem with subarus is wiring; there is no publicly available documentation on EXACTLY what every wire does. of course a stand alone would eliminate the need for that.

The only transmisisons (aside from the diffs) that are any different strenght wise is the STI ver6 RA uses a different casting process aparently, and the 6MT that is just recently available. ALL SUBARU TRANSMISSIONS ARE THE SAME DESIGN !!! Why would the EXACT same setup be any different in an STI because it is an STI ?? 90% of failures are because of the drivers.

Some of the older transmissions used a DOUBLE syncro to ease the shifts for the user, not the transmission. The thing that IS different from STI to ordinary subaru transmission is not the strength of the gears, but the ratios and type of differentials used.

I hope that this answers some questions, if I can help out anymore, please contact me at

support@lachutesubaru.com

Regards,
Mark

After completing 7 of these "swaps" (and currently doing 2 more) I can say this:
I have no idea how many people that I have tried to coach down this conversion road. But, most of them seem to want new trannies...why!? probably because they heard somewhere that it was what was required. They even try to tell me that I am a fool. hahahaha :lol:
Oh well...., Heck I'll love to take all your guys' money and sell you trannies that you don't need. But, I am an honest guy, a car nut and I just can't rape you like that.

We, I-Speed USA, have a few conversions at our disposal. My personal '97 OBS (daily driver)underwent the conversion at 94k miles. I kept the stock 2.2 tranny (3.90 final). Now, that car puts 255 to the wheels and I have 109k miles on the car.
I thought that the tranny was going south, but I was wrong. i just changed the fluid and tadaaaa!
The other car is a 98 2.5 rs with LSD. That car (245 WHP)is a track car. it pulls 13.1 in the 1/4 with an avcr (15psi) and FP turbo. The tranny in that car is fine after all the ABUSE it has gone through.
You may all want to pay attention here and hear how these trannies survive....
IT IS ALL (exaggeration but true) IN THE DRIVER.
We don't munch on the gears! We all slip the clutch rather than DUMP it. Remember it's AWD not FWD or RWD!!!

to answer conversion q's.
The most difficult portion of the conversion is ,yes, the wiring. It alone takes about 25 hours.
We use ACT clutches for track and Exedy for street.
Our motors are from salvaged wrx's

If you really want more insight or more info then feel free to head to

i-speedusa.com (http://i-speedusa.com)
there is info there on what you really need and what you don't really need.

my spare change
Chris
cescamilla@i-speedusa.com

edit - i am a pour speller;)

Chris - Thanks for throwing your experiences into this thread.

I too believe that with a civil driving disposition you can make the stock 2.5 tranny last along time without these catastrophic transmission meltdowns that are "obviously" not the fault of the driver...it must be a weak design. :p

-mykr.

Originally posted by christoph1371
the wiring. It alone takes about 25 hours.


:eek: :lol: :lol: :lol: :rolleyes:

I have a question regarding gas mileage, has anyone with this swap ever tracked and checked their gas milage over both city and highway? I also though to keep the power in line you had to swap in a EJ20 trans, but with all this info I am looking in a whole new light after my JDM EJ20 swap has gone wrong. Peace...~Erick

Erick, on my trip from Lansing to Houghton for the Lake Superior Pro Rally (about 550 miles) my STi Ver. 3 averaged about 28 mpg on the highway. This utilizes the same 4.11:1 ratio as the RS.

- Trent

Separating the WRX harness from what you need to what you don't need takes 4 hours
Labeling all wires to where they will correspond to takes 1 hour
Taking apart the interior of the RS takes 2 hours
Taking out the wires in the RS which you don't need - 2 hours
Soldering "X" amount of wires takes about 12 hours
Bundling the wires together so that they look good and fit like it were stock takes 1 hour.
Putting the interior back together takes 2 hours
Total time (start to finish) for an Experienced Professional wire install - 24 hours or so.
This is all pending that you already KNOW what you are doing, have all the schematics, and it depends on which model and MY car you are attempting to do.
Note: the above hours are listed for 98-01 RS
The 97 OBS took 30 hours and the legacy's (99 GT and limited) took 34.


My own gas milage in the OBS (13.4 gal tank) is about 225 city and 260 freeway. this is with a stock ecu. puttin gin the link my city goes to 190 and freeway goes to 220...hehehe i like to go fast:)

edit for pour spelling

Originally posted by christoph1371

Taking apart the interior of the RS takes 2 hours
Taking out the wires in the RS which you don't need - 2 hours
Soldering "X" amount of wires takes about 12 hours



Hey thats interesting . I don't understand where that 12 hours comes in. Once you separate the engine section of the JDM harness, there is only around 10 wires that you have wire up. Actually , you can save yourself alot of time by just tapping into the stock 2.5 harness at the ecu so there is no need to separate or remove the stock harness. The stock 2.5 engine harness can be pulled into the car and than run the JDM harness out though the same hole via grommet. There is a couple of wires that you will have to ground for the instrument cluster.


Just my 2cents.

Well, hey that's interesting too! You could do a sloppy crappy job like that and get a way with it in a JDM conversion.
But, the ~24 hours comes from a USDM, OBDII, fully CA state and smog legal conversion.

Just thought I'd like to clarify that for you:rolleyes:


my spare change

Oh well , looks like you can't take informative opinion . And for your information , its not a sloppy job by tapping into the stock RS harness at the ecu . At least you give the owner the option of going back to a stock engine without any major modifications . And another thing , If you do a full swap with a USDM Wrx engine into another car with stock ecu , cats, muffler it would be smog compliant regardless. You have not changed anything besides transfering to another car. Now understand why JDM swaps are out of reach for the budget enthusiast . They are mostly paying for your mods for your own personal car.


Not worth giving you squat .

VerIII,

Your making assumption without the info.

Chris, is refering to the new Ver7 engines. This engine requires the ECU to control a few more items that earlier ver motors do not have. One item in particular is the Tumble Generator Valves, and other such emmisions equipment. Also the RS ECU cannot control Boost on its own. And the Connectors between the two are 3 for the RS ECU and 4 for the WRX.

I personnally have done this conversion (With I-Speeds help) and did the wiring on the car myself. Let me say that if there was an easier way to do the wiring I would have done it. The differences between the WRX and any other Subaru is just too broad to do a 10 wire splice. It really requires the splicing of both harness together to acomlish the job. I spent months studying the wiring of both cars, and know more about my car then most service techs at the dealerships do. When I say that I know the wiring inside and out, I mean it.

The only other option is to get a Stand-Alone aftermarket ECU to run the engine, but if you can name one that can run everything that the stock ECU controls, that great. But that would cause a problem with emissions and such.

With us being in California, the nessecity of using ALL the SMOG equipment and all that it pertains is paramount to keeping the car running on the road.

Chris is not exagerating on the time it takes to do the wiring, in fact I am impressed that they have cut the time down to 24 hours.

Maybe some day an adapter can be made that would allow the Stock wiring harness to connect to the WRX ECU and all engine related wiring can be pig-tailed off to the engine. But if this can be made it will have to be Car and year specific as it appears that Subaru loves to change wiring from year to year. I am looking into working with certain parties to make such an adapter, if this comes to be, all the better to those who wish to do the conversion.

CHeers

EddyL.

Excuse me for any improper spelling.

Regarding the standalone ECU, it does not need to control all the functions of the stock ECU. It only needs to control the fuel, timing, and spark, leaving the original ECU to control the rest of the car as if you were running a standalone on the stock motor. standalones can easily be tuned to pass emissions and i know of 3 people using the SDS digital systems that have passed without any under-the-table work.

Both Chris and Eddy are right because unless you have actually seen the process go down you really don't know everything thats involved. I think people assume that motorswaps in our cars are like SR20DET or B16 swaps. Well unfortunatly they are not because Subaru changes the wiring and motors nearly every year. There is no standard between years. I started the process of swapping a USDM wrx motor into a 1995 L, however due to complexity and lack of time I had in which to complete it, I decided against it. The swap was being done by SXPi in San Diego. Eventually they finished another swap they were working on, but i don't know exactly how it came out. Really there is only one way to do the swap. The way Chris does it and the way Lachute Subaru does it.

You have to sacrifice the ability to go back to the stock motor (why would you in the first place) to have the new motor installed correctly and reliably. I'm sure people will take back everything they say after they half-ass the install and one wire gets disconnected and they have to take apart the whole car and figure out what went wrong.

my 3 cents.

i am swaping a 95wrx motor into my 99rs. I plan on using the rs tranny and rear diff. The only question i have is about the slave cylinder, the bolt is on the other side of the tranny?

Originally posted by EddyRS
VerIII,

Your making assumption without the info.

Chris, is refering to the new Ver7 engines. This engine requires the ECU to control a few more items that earlier ver motors do not have. One item in particular is the Tumble Generator Valves, and other such emmisions equipment. Also the RS ECU cannot control Boost on its own. And the Connectors between the two are 3 for the RS ECU and 4 for the WRX.




EddyRS ,
I am not making any assumptions . I have done swaps and I still do .

Sti Ver 7 's don't come with tumbler valves . Only the USDM Wrx does. Only thing really different with the V7's is the variable valve timing.

Only pain doing the USDM Wrx swap is to include the fuel pump control unit which is the rear of the car.

RS ecu controlling boost ? I was talking about doing JDM engine swaps.

If you have the whole RHD harness , you separate the engine wires to and from the ecu . Once you have done this , there is around 10 wires that had to be cut from the RHD harness to actually separate the engine wiring from the rest . Now when I say rest of the harness , that is the RHD fuse box , heater control , interior functions...etc .

These wires are usually - fuel pump relay , main relay , main power , ecu back-up power , tach, speed sensor , water temp , oil pressure warning light , check engine light , rad fans ...etc.

The rest of the engine harness you do not have to cut or modify other than its longer than needed because the RHD cars had the ecu on the left side of the car and it goes out the right side firewall .


Anyways , my original point is it takes approx 10-12 hours just to do this and install it into the doner car . I did not understand what Chris's method of doing this swap that takes him 25hrs . And in return , I got a smart ass remark about how this method is crappy and sloppy ? Bite me ! It is not necessary to take out or hack the stock 2.5RS harness . Only thing is to tap into the proper function wires at the ecu connector for the JDM ecu . Thats why I said that this way , if the owner ever decides to go back to stock for whatever reason, ie. crashed his car and wants to get rid of it , or transplanting into another car and wants to sell the other back with the stock engine .


I see no point of explaning this or giving my opinion because everyone does it their own way. Fine. So be it . Some people like doing things the hard way . ;) :rolleyes: :p :D :cool:

I'd just like to chime in here and say thanks to Ver.III. I hadn't actually heard of anybody doing this. Everybody I hear about completely rewires the whole car. Thanks for the input.

-Jon

You are right. Every one has there own way of doing things, just like everyone has there own way of reading and understanding things. I keep referring to us doing USDM swaps and other people keep referring to JDM. Somehow, people keep getting confused. Go figure.

Anyway, I am just sharing my experiences in doing and seeing all sorts of swaps.

When I say it’s a crap and hack job, it's because I have seen two (JDM swap and USDM swap) cars wired as described by VerIII. The re-wiring was a horror in the USDM and nearly bearable in the JDM.

The amount of wiring time, when we do a USDM 2002 EJ20 swap, still stands at ~25 hours. People may not want to agree with that number. Then again, those are the same people that have not done that specific swap or just have another way of doing it.

Those that have seen our swaps have always been amazed about how clean the job was done. That says a lot about our work and our desire for perfection.

In the end, some people may care about the quality of work. Others just want the thing running. It all just depends on what type of person you choose to be.

My spare change

Just a reminder, a USDM EJ20 Swap DOES NOT need to be completely re-wired (gutted and installed with a NEW harness). You are only putting in the engine, ECU, and pump relay. So why would you re-wire the headlights or windows?

From what I'm reading, it seems like I-Speed likes to have it like a factory look while Ver.III doesn't mind having it like the hobby look. Both work and in the end, it's just a matter of preference. I guess there's also the bling bling pride issue of when a Subaru mechanic looks at one of I-Speed's cars and thinks that is the way it came from Japan...

I think that being said, we should let this rest.

My $.02


"You use crimpers, I use soldering gun, glass is half full, glass is half empty, you say tomato, I say tomata, etc....."

JDM / USDM swap, its both the same . Both involve wiring.


Well just because you have seen 2 bad swaps does not mean that they are all that way. So what you are saying is even though most of the looms I have made by this method even though I put all the wires into one bundle in heat shrink tubing, label all plugs, is considered by you a hack , crap job ? And just because you don't solder splice at the ecu harness connector but you rather pull all the wires up to the fuse panel and make your cuts and soldering there is quality workmanship ? And considering you have done so many swaps and it still takes you just as long ?



Aspen ,
Factory look ? You mean the black plastic loom cover and all wrapped in electrical tape ? So that means the looms I make for rally cars must be really the "hobby" look. Bling Bling ! :lol:

Originally posted by Aspen
I think that being said, we should let this rest.


I totally disagree with this. Why would we want to let this rest... if someone has found a way to make things more effcient why let it rest. I have personally seen Ver. III's swaps and tho i havn't ripped the carpeting out... it seems fine to me.

I've heard I-speed work is good too. Tho i have not seen it.

But why would you want to stop this type of discussion. So far, I see only facts and no mud tossed around... whats wrong?

I just want to see more details.

I agree with HOK, as long as it doesn't get ugly I say let the free flow of information continue.

It's definitely helping me out. :D

cheers
-mykr.

of course now the discussion is gonna stop... LOL

who wants to bet a Ver. 7 engine..:alien:

I think that being said, we should let this rest.

I was talking about the pissing match and egos, "Mines better than yours" attitudes. Of course knowledge and different techniques are always welcome by all members, just not the pissing part.

By factory look, I was referring to if a factory mechanic ever disected the whole car to diagnose something(including peeling away all the electric tape and loom for electric problems). I wasn't trying to imply that VerIII job was shotty in any way and had wires sticking out everywhere(although I'm sure there are some people that take major shortcuts and do it that way as described by I-Speed). Before the USDM WRX, I still remember the original post of when VerIII took awhile to sort out the JDM wiring and make things work. I think he was one of the first successful ones on this board to do so. ;)

Like I said before

" Every one has there own way of doing things, just like everyone has there own way of reading and understanding things."

Apparently, a lot of people are doing just that.

If VerIII, feels that I am pissing on him/her, their work, or their ideas, then that is too bad. I cannot make them "feel" otherwise.
I have myself to blame. Obvioulsy, I am failing to communicate that what I saw had no relation to you and my statements have surely struck a nerve with you.

Again, I saw, 2 cars, neither was done by VerIII. How anyone can assume/imply that I said that VerIII did the work...is beyond me.
Sure, not all swaps or wiring is "hack" or "crap"...but, there is a dam lot of it out there.

Lastly, "JDM / USDM swap, its both the same", It may be true that both involve wiring. However, to imply that both conversions have the exact same wires to be soldered is an incorrect statement. Some wires may be the same but there are actually more wires to account for in the USDM conversion.

If you all want to keep talking about wiring, that's fine with me.

I am more than happy to help this conversation move forward.

my spare change

I have got a grand solution... how about both of you, ver. III and I-Speed do a swap for me... free of charge of course, then I will see which one looks better, post pics, etc etc.... then everyone can decide on their own... plus I will be a driving advertisement for both. Well I think that sounds like a swell idea...... j/k
Like anyone is going to do that, but it is worth a shot. Yeah the "mine is better" isn't what I want to hear, but I like to hear all the ways/ideas people have. Everyone has an opinioin, has a new/different way.... and this is what a Subaru forum or any forum is all about, information sharing, asking questions... and doing a free swap... I will pay for parts.... Peace.... oh and happy holidays to all. ~Erick

shoot, now that I posted I forget a couple things, one what is I-Speeds phone number, someone on the general board is trying to get a hold of Bill. Also Ver III what would you charge to install, wire up a engine, with stock ecu... either JDM or USDM. Have you done both or just the JDM? Also I-Speed have you ever done a JDM swap, is it harder, what are the differences, price costs higher. I figure some things are going to be different due to the LHD vs. RHD, I think the exhaust is different correct? Would this be more costly in comparison.... JDM EJ20 vs USDM EJ20.... just engine and ECU... will the RS with clutch and flywheel hold the power output of a JDM, lets say 240-280HP EJ20... or better yet.... how much power can the RS trans hold. I am not talking with total rebuild, or crazy launches all the time. I am just thinking power band of engine, with thought mainly city driving, gas mileage.... something reasonable... will it hold with no major problems. to be honest if I did this I would be happy with 180WHP, at least for a while, maybe get it up to 200, but shoot, that is more then enough for city and some highway driving... plus the occasional logging road/snow drive. So I guess I am just wondering which might be more cost effective, just stock JDM EJ20 or USDM EJ20 putting out like 240HP at the crank. So basicly the equivalent HP output put into a RS. Which would cost more overall. Damn, this is hard... their are a bunch of ways to get power out, but think cost effective. I am just wondering if it worth it to shell the money to ship a JDM engine, have more stock HP, but have other install problems, vs USDM, less HP, less? install problems or hurdles. If I have been rambeling sorry... just typing before thinking. peace, and thanks..... ~Erick

[QUOTE]Originally posted by christoph1371




If VerIII, feels that I am pissing on him/her, their work, or their ideas, then that is too bad. I cannot make them "feel" otherwise.
I have myself to blame. Obvioulsy, I am failing to communicate that what I saw had no relation to you and my statements have surely struck a nerve with you.

Obviously, you should go back and re-read your post and work on your communication skills so people like myself or anyone else takes it the "wrong" way.



I saw, 2 cars, neither was done by VerIII. How anyone can assume/imply that I said that VerIII did the work...is beyond me.

Again , re-read your post , its not you did imply I did the work , you implied my alternative method of wiring is a "hack", "crap" .



Lastly, "JDM / USDM swap, its both the same", It may be true that both involve wiring. However, to imply that both conversions have the exact same wires to be soldered is an incorrect statement. Some wires may be the same but there are actually more wires to account for in the USDM conversion.


Lastly, perhaps you should take the time out and read my post more than once so that you understand that no where have i mentioned that either JDM /USDM have the same colors or same number of wires. I said wiring is wiring , either swaps requires wiring.


Merry Christmas ! :rolleyes:

Well, it looks like I made another new friend/fan. Lucky me.

People interpret whatever they want.
Your perception is your reality. Easy concept yet, so hard for people to really grasp.

snwbrder206: The jdm to rs conversion is cheaper initially. Down the road, if you choose to sell the car, you'll wish you went stock/USDM. it can be smogged. If you live out of CA or in a state with lax emission laws, then just do your JDM swap.
a stock usdm to rs conversion has been dynoed at 180WHP and 199 ft tor.
Your stock rs tranny is fine for the conversion.

I did have a good christmas, thanks for asking
:)

my spare change

can you get sti power levels out of the USDM motor and still have it be reliable?

My perception/reality :

$ 7000 USD/ min. - engine swap for 42 hours = $167 hr.

25 hours of unecessary wiring ? No thanks . :rolleyes:


With rates like that , I could make a killing. But I don't believe in ripping people off.

Originally posted by Ver.III
My perception/reality :

$ 7000 USD/ min. - engine swap for 42 hours = $167 hr.

25 hours of unecessary wiring ? No thanks . :rolleyes:


With rates like that , I could make a killing. But I don't believe in ripping people off.

Well, your doors of perception are rattling in the wind.

California - Smog Legal USDM EJ20 in a 2000 GM6 body = @ $7000
Motor checked out, top notch work, wiring done properly = priceless.

Originally posted by WRSport


Well, your doors of perception are rattling in the wind.

California - Smog Legal USDM EJ20 in a 2000 GM6 body = @ $7000
Motor checked out, top notch work, wiring done properly = priceless.


Good for you . Nice to have deep pockets. I can brag too about a V5 with an AWD drivetrain in a Suzuki Swift , WIRED PROPERLY, but I don't play those games. Your doors of perception is in the wrong direction and in the water. Unless you know what EXACTLY we are talking about before you shoot off your mouth, you know where you can go.

Before you take cheap shots, maybe you should read this whole thread and see that we are talking Subaru engine swaps IN Subarus. And that I suggested there was an alternative method of wiring engine swaps that could save alot of time and money without having to tear out the dash and all the stock wiring in the car. And IS NOT a crap or hack method. Which is the response I got from I-Speed. So thats an insult as far as I am concern. Ironically , they could save themselves half the work and still charge their same rate. So if they want to continue their method, fine. I could not care less. I never said that is was wrong. It was my alternative suggestion that got ridiculed.

So for all you swap newbies out there , good luck. :cool:

I think it's great you can do it with out make a new harness!
Ver.III pmed you with some ?'s


Thanks Dave

:lol:

Well I know exactly what we are talking about.

I haven't seen your "method" produce running vehicles that are smog legal in California. Thats all that matters to myself as far as USDM WRX engine swaps go.

Originally posted by WRSport
:lol:

Well I know exactly what we are talking about.

I haven't seen your "method" produce running vehicles that are smog legal in California. Thats all that matters to myself as far as USDM WRX engine swaps go.



If you don't know the method , how can you say you know what we are talking about ?

If you take a smog legal engine and put it into another car with its respective parts , is that car smog legal ? And yes , my method still retains all stock Wrx emissions components and pass as much as a stock Wrx does.



Again , not interested in your pissing match . Since you and I-Speed has nothing intelligent to say, No more has to be said.

:rolleyes:

Look, I dont see you writing up a how to article documenting all differences from year to year in regards to swapping a USDM WRX engine into an older subaru RS.

If you are going too that would be fantastic. Until that happens
your "method" does me no good.

Yes, you CAN swap in a usdm engine and ECU and do the wiring in a different manner than I-Speed does. I don't think anyone is arguing this fact.

I'm starting to think that you believe I-Speed is ripping out more wiring than they actually are.

Anyway, enough, OK, so say I just decided to do this myself.
Ok, lets assume I have been very lucky and located myself an USDM engine that can be purchased. Asssuming I did my homework and was able to get every last piece I actually needed, was I able to know I had a good engine before I laid out my money? hmm thats one risk...lets move on...Lets say I have been lucky enough and have a working engine, harness, ecu, crossmember etc, Its now time to start the wiring. I've got my full wiring schmatics for my year 2000 and the 2002 donor engine. Hmmm where do I start...

I'm all ears...........................

My point is this. For myself, turboing my 2.5 means risk and a need for a good deal of money available at all times of ownership.
Not to mention, the loss of reliability assurance if way off the path on back roads in the winter(This means a lot to me, some people could care less, they are always within AAA range etc). Now, $7000 is no small chunk of change, but I feel this amount will come down in time, but until then I'm willing to think, for what I get as a total package I-Speed offers a pretty damm good turn key option for those of us who want to go the swap route.

Not to mention, the speed of the swap. If I called up Chris and wrote him a check, I have no doubt that once we set a date for the actual swap, say a Saturday, I have all confidence that I could drive to work monday morning in my newly powered Impreza. No need to have a rental car reservation to cover myself etc. To me, thats worth the money.

Wow…

Wait a minute, did you just say that you could drive your car in on Saturday and drive it to work on Monday morning ????? What’s this ... you can stop time now ??? If I am not mistaken, did he not say it takes at least 24 hours to do “a proper job” to the wiring harness ?? I don’t think someone is going to work on our car 48 hours non-stop. Hmmmmm..... so how long does this leave for all the other goodies…. Like actually putting the engine in, and other stuff. Also the small stuff, 10 minutes here and there adds up to A LOT of hours !!! Hmmm….

I have seen VerIII ‘s work, and it may be some of the most reliable, functional and simple modifications out there. There is something to be said for a good simple solution that uses existing “components”, as opposed to redoing /re-engineering what is already there.

Just an observation….


Karl S. :D :D :D :D :D :D :devil:

Originally posted by WRSport
Look, I dont see you writing up a how to article documenting all differences from year to year in regards to swapping a USDM WRX engine into an older subaru RS.

I'm all ears...........................

WRSport

I don't really understand what your getting at... your arguements are moot... I don't see I-speed writing up detailed articles of the USDM swap... I've actually seen a few questions directed to them about the swap and they won't tell (trade secret). I understand that... but why do you hold Ver. III to a different standard. Does he need to write up a detailed article for you to just rip it off and then say "yup, thats a good method". Instead of attacking someone maybe you should just ask "which 10 wires are you talking about". I know you feel your defending your buddy... but i was really looking forward to this thread and now thanks to you its a worthless pissing match...:mad:

also if you said 7000 is well worth it... then why don't you ask how much Ver. III would do it for (i'm assuming cheaper since he said what he said)

Btw thanks a lot....:rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WRSport
Look, I dont see you writing up a how to article documenting all differences from year to year in regards to swapping a USDM WRX engine into an older subaru RS.

If you are going too that would be fantastic. Until that happens
your "method" does me no good.

Perhaps you should have done like i suggested and read this WHOLE thread. I have explained my method. Openly .



Yes, you CAN swap in a usdm engine and ECU and do the wiring in a different manner than I-Speed does. I don't think anyone is arguing this fact.


Eureka ! Oh , now you get it !


I'm starting to think that you believe I-Speed is ripping out more wiring than they actually are.

Hmmmm, Yes . 25hrs of wiring that could be reduced to less than 12 without ripping the dash and not having to remove unecessary wires. So out of that $7000 , instead of that $4000 of it was wiring , it could have been $2000 .


Anyway, enough, OK, so say I just decided to do this myself.
Ok, lets assume I have been very lucky and located myself an USDM engine that can be purchased. Asssuming I did my homework and was able to get every last piece I actually needed, was I able to know I had a good engine before I laid out my money? hmm thats one risk...lets move on...Lets say I have been lucky enough and have a working engine, harness, ecu, crossmember etc, Its now time to start the wiring. I've got my full wiring schmatics for my year 2000 and the 2002 donor engine. Hmmm where do I start...

I'm all ears...........................

If you really did your homework , I would not have to tell you where to start .



My point is this. For myself, turboing my 2.5 means risk and a need for a good deal of money available at all times of ownership.
Not to mention, the loss of reliability assurance if way off the path on back roads in the winter(This means a lot to me, some people could care less, they are always within AAA range etc). Now, $7000 is no small chunk of change, but I feel this amount will come down in time, but until then I'm willing to think, for what I get as a total package I-Speed offers a pretty damm good turn key option for those of us who want to go the swap route.

So if you were charged $15000 for $7000 worth of workmanship, would you still feel assured ?


Not to mention, the speed of the swap. If I called up Chris and wrote him a check, I have no doubt that once we set a date for the actual swap, say a Saturday, I have all confidence that I could drive to work monday morning in my newly powered Impreza. No need to have a rental car reservation to cover myself etc. To me, thats worth the money.

Well , again you are just flapping gums and missed the whole point. . This has nothing to do with I-Speed's workmanship. Again , I suggested a shorter, easier method of wiring a swap that could save everyone alot of time and money. But the wiring gods at I-Speed say that this method is crap and a hack job method, and that their way is the "proper" way . And also they feel that they need to rip out all the stock wiring of the car so it can be never converted back unless they charge you another 25 hours.

If thats the way I-Speed feels about it . Fine. If they have the customers/ followers that have the money to pay for their swap, good for them.

I am more insulted in the way I-Speed went about replying in this thread and casting the image that their wiring swap is the only way there is.

I am just informing the Subaru enthusiast who want to do a swap that you do not have to go this route, or go this far for a JDM/USDM swap wiring . I am not here looking for business or customers . I have other work that keeps me more than busy.

Edit : I remove my quote on how much I normally charge for the sake of arguement to this thread.

Originally posted by Ver.III
[QUOTE]..... And just to let you know , I would normally charge half what you paid for your swap. And thats in Canadian currrency .
Wow...
$3500CD = $2232USD
$4000CD = $2550USD

Are you saying you can source all necessay parts and do the install for around $2600USD.
=======================


Although I have never seen any type of Subaru engine swaps I have a fair enough knowledge and can understand what you are saying.
It sounds like a good idea to leave all non-engine wiring inplace - just tap them into the corresponding WRX's ecu connector. <<I also think that "if" the pin design are the same you can also remove them from the RS connector and re-insert into the WRX connector.>>

Gee this thread has gotten way outta hand. I make a comment about a wiring job, bruise an ego or two and now it's turned into this. We are all Subaru enthusiasts, aren't we?

Here's a few words about comments that peple have raised.

1. The first conversion we did we knocked out in one weekend. We will NEVER do that again. 2 guys and no sleep...ughhhh. Never again.
2. I keep telling people that there are MANY ways to to the conversion. I even send them to other shops in if they don't want us to do it. The parts We buy are by no means the least expensive...trust me. I see front entire USDM front clips go for ~2.8k.
But we don't pay anywhere near that. I buy from one group and one group only. Here's how it goes,
a. I pretty much have a list of stuff I want and the condition which I want it in.
b. I personally check all parts before buying them (compression and leak tests included)
c. The motor is put on a jig and then we start it (before we buy it)
d. I get full warranty from my buyer of ALL parts. mind you that we buy these parts from a salvage yard so the componets come from wrecked wrx's.
e. If any our criteria are not met....we don't buy it.

We pay a premium for all those parts and service. It's a premium that is passed on to customers. I inform customers why the price is the way it is so that they understand. Some go for it and some don't.

3. Some people don't understand that doing conversions, like any automotive/business work, is risky. It's a HUGE liability. Because of this we don't GIVE out the "wiring secrets". We tell people to buy the manuals and figure it out. We will not be held responsible for giving someone a piece of paper that says, connect x to y. Only to be sued later because they read the instructions to say connect x to z.
So, we have to pay an overhead that most hobbists dont have to like liability insurance. Oh yeah, what about all that other insurance and bills we have to pay for, the shop, the lifts, employees...
Where does that money come from?

Take all those things into account and your NET income from a conversion suddenly doesn't seem so large. FYI : We opperate on a VERY thin margin.
It might be helpful to note that, we also retain our regular consulting jobs (i.e we work ~ 40 hours a week in addition to owning our own business, another 40 hours a week).
Why do we do ALL this?! Because ,as crazy as we are, we ARE enthusiasts in every sense of the word.

Either that will help shed some light on your view or will help fuel more enthusiast bashing :rolleyes:

My spare change

Chris ,
Like I said before again and again this has nothing to do with the way you run your ship . I suggested a alternative way to do wiring in an engine swap openly which was a trade secret and you personaly bashed it without trying it. Judged by what you seen from a bad swap. And you say you are a Subaru enthusiast ?

The method I described for making an engine loom is pretty much the same used by most wire technicians in the UK for Grp N , Grp A . rally cars, road racing for years . Its not new . You can buy custom looms ready to plug in for pretty much any Sti engine or for a few extra bucks, an USDM engine.

And do you feel that threatened that you have to explain to justify your work because I mentioned an easier way ? Sorry dude , welcome to the business world . There are shops and freelancers charging less and doing the same work. If anyones ego has been bruised , it is yours.

Just remember , this ALL started because YOU BASHED IT.

I have seen the harness/looms for the group N and A, not the UK or road racing ones. I can only assume that they similar. We thought that there would be an easy fix to all the wiring by using those said looms. We tried it and the wiring at the ecu and were not happy with it. Because we only had one made one attempt, it cost us more in time and money to fabricate/complete the whole thing. I was aggreed to do it another way.
I am sure if we cranked out large numbers of conversion that the pre-made loom would be beneficial. Until then, this is the way we do it.

Regarding the rest of your comments.
Sorry, I wasn't feeling threatened. I was laying out to everyone reading this thread, what we actually go through. The more people know about the how and why things work, the better. Maybe some insight to why people do what they do will help people make choices? Maybe they will choose our shop...maybe they wont.

I don't take what you or anyone else says personally. It's pretty sad that people take mine and many others' comments that way. If I call something Hack and Crap, big deal, get over it. It's not like everyone listens or agrees with what I say anyway.

People forget, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one.
I have my opinions just like you do. You think your wiring method is good. I think mine is good. Great. I am sure there are others in this world who think their method is good too.

Next conversion question.

my spare change

can you guys explain what these premade wirelooms are?

Pretty much they are componets/pre made parts (like in "kit cars") which can be used for your desired setup (road, rally, etc). You can call and have one made or make one yourself. It can be easier to buy one, if your application has already been done before.

my spare change

I don't see what could be so difficult if a loom is pre-made with the same factory connectors that you would have a hard time installing it . Example , Sti V3 looms comes pre-made with aviation/military spec wire, factory connectors. All that has to be hooked up the the car is power,ground,tach,check engine light,rad fans, eng temp, oil pressure switch. Complete loom as such cost around $ 900 USD.

And where could one find such a loom??? I have done some research and never really came accross someone making pre-made looms. Could they have one fabricated for the swap of a USDM EJ20 into a 2.5 RS with specified year and such. The one thing that has always pushed me away from this, well one first of all cost being the major issue, which is why my first project was halted. The other being the wiring issue, which still sounds like an undergoing, one which for me would take a while with not having much spare time, but I also can't be without a car, so it just doesn't work out with me. That is one reason I am very interested, though it is getting very spirited in the way of sarcasim and slight edgyness, in what not only you two (Ver III and Chris) have to say, but what others have to say to help further along the process, making it much faster. Also a reason I have thought about having someone else with the experiance do the work to expedite it faster so I can have a car to drive. I personaly thank you both and everyone for the info being said on this thread in the way of helpful information. Some other things we need to just disregard because frankly it is going to get no where. So again thank you both for the help already given but any further information which anyone can despence and help in furthering everyone elses knowledge on this board. peace ~Erick

snwbrder206,

One company I have dealt with is called DC electrics in the UK. They are mostly familular with JDM engines since that revolves around the rally scene. One of the problems is there is so many variations of ecu pin out functions from country to country that it may not be the same as here. Another is that they are so busy manufactoring looms for for contract teams that most times they cannot do one-offs . I tried to source the same factory ecu and other connectors(ie. Tyco,AMP) but they only sell them in minimum orders of ten thousand per. :eek:

ten thousand per... dang. Well that isn't going to work, unless we can get a rather group buy that all have the same MY year and engine to do the swap... but I don't forsee that happening. Well thanks VER III for the info. Not to attach this to this thread but have a good and safe new years everyone, peace. ~Erick

bump

ok...i thought i could read the whole thread but screw it... i have few questions sorry if it was already asked, but my eyes are hurting.

I have a 2002 RS and its slow as ...well u kno.

1.) wrx motor on a RS 4eat?? its otay?
2.) I live in CA, so smog is issue. what do i have to do so i pass smog?
3.) should i just buy a wrx?
4.) does all insurance cover the motor and leave the price the same or only certain insurance company?
5.) theres a supercharger kit in the making (forgot who was doing it) should i just go for that?
6.) why is my car slow? maybe the 18" prodrive wheels but wat else? my friend's 1991 honda accord beat the living crap out of me.

Sorry for all the questions but i want the car to be fast and stuff so i wont get owned (own3d??? i dunno people just do it) by a 1991 honda accord with 180k miles on it.

trade in your '02 RS for a WRX. Factory warranty and the least amount of headaches down the road.

my $.02

...and not nearly as cool.

:lol:

man all these threads are like old and dead any one still doin these swaps ?
I'm looking for info for my 96 outback w/ a jdm wrx/sti engine conversion
any leads would be great, specific, should I pull the dash for the harness deal or ply it like sam & jut hang upside down & work it ?
regards

I had this setup... 02 wrx engine into the 00' 2.5rs. 4.11's are nasty.. The lower gears pulled soo strong. I beat a stage 2 04' wrx on a completly stock setup (besides samco ic hoses).

what if you put a V7 in the car.
Will it fit the tranny?
would it be better to swap tranny as well?

I am debating right now if I should get an 2.5RS and swap an engine in there or to buy a bugeye and just do minor bolt ons.
its either halfway or all the way, but I want a daily driver. I am too uncertain on what to do, due to too little knowledge lol.

im wondering if the 2.5RS tranny is stronger than the 2.0 wrx tranny?

has anyone stripped any gears on this tranny yet? :confused:

Its essentially the same transmission, with different ratio gearsets and final drive. Also the clutch operation is reverse. Push vs. Pull

I personally think the wrx responds better with the RS gearbox than the wrx box. IMHO. Doesn't mean its any stronger. Thats where the driver comes into play.

holy resurected threads batman!

Yes, lots of people still do this swap.

Pritty much every 5-speed subie tranny ever made is around the same strength (at least that we saw state side), since they're more or less the same but with different gearings. The 2.5RS's gears fit the the WRX's powerband better then the WRX's tranny does, because in the US subaru wanted to get better fuel economy, and not have the engine reving all the time, because aparently people in the US like that (and I suppose the average joe does) so they made the gearing taller (numberically smaller) and spaced them further apart. The RS tranny is much more similar to the WRX tranny in the rest of the world, and the gearing keeps the motor in its power band far better. A GC/GM/GF body (pre bugeye (GD) Impreza, sedan, coupe and wagon respectively) will be faster then a stock post bugeye Impreza not only because of the better gearing, but also because the GC is between 200-700lbs lighter then the GD is, depending on GC model. It will also, of course, handel better because of this fact as well.

im wondering if the 2.5RS tranny is stronger than the 2.0 wrx tranny?

has anyone stripped any gears on this tranny yet? :confused:

people were breaking RS trans(shredding 2nd gear) NA...what does that tell ya


and whoa, talk about a bump

people were breaking RS trans(shredding 2nd gear) NA...what does that tell ya


and whoa, talk about a bump

but then again, you can break any tranny giving the right combination of tire traction, clut holding force, and revs. People are breaking WRX trannys stock, so they're not exactly better in the strength department.

but then again, you can break any tranny giving the right combination of tire traction, clut holding force, and revs. People are breaking WRX trannys stock, so they're not exactly better in the strength department.


exactly.

i have read the whole thread. yea. from page one.
and this is what i want to kno
and if any one has done it




i have a 2005 RS auto trans (not my choice), and im thinking of an engine swap. i want to know what parts i need what to expect and costs. i wanna have it done before the summer.

i have a friend who wants to race me in his old mustang with a 289 and we have a bet and i say i will woop him and he called my car a crackr jack box toy :furious: this is a must win. i want the turbo engine so i can really wipe the floor with him. ya kno. :lol:
:devil:

so parts and prices and maybe even a shop in Pueblo Co to do it would be nice.

thanks.

you are a cracker jack

a street racingis bad
b if you have a 05 sell it and buy a used wrx it will be considerably cheeper
c the only way your going to be faster than a old mustang is in the turns .. challange him to an auto-x

They could be racing at a drag strip you know ;)

But Jaxx is right, if you have an 05, sell it and get like an 04 STi or something, because it's going to be a lot more value per dollar then messing up a perfictly good 05.

the only way your going to be faster than a old mustang is in the turns .. challange him to an auto-x

or challenge him to a 4 cyl duel! you'll win. 289's blow chunks anyway(pitiful engines at best)!

--keith

yea. selling for an 04 STi sounds really good. but.. talking my parents into buying me a faster car just doesnt seem to fly. if it were up to me. i would. but seeing as my baby was a heck of a birthday/christmas/ any holiday that u get presents for for the next 10 to fifteen years its not much of an option.

so i was thinking about simi simple mods. and inexpecnsive ones.
ideas?
please.
thanks.

bump.

I have a question for those with a USDM ej20 swap with the 4.11 RS tranny.
What is the 0-60 time around?

but seeing as my baby was a heck of a birthday/christmas/ any holiday that u get presents for for the next 10 to fifteen years its not much of an option.


That sounds familiar ;)



so i was thinking about simi simple mods. and inexpecnsive ones.
ideas?
please.
thanks.

It's an NA. There are no such thing as simple, inexpensive mods for an NA, at least not ones that really gain you anything. Spend money on suspention bits, they'll give you your biggest return on your dollar in terms of fun factor and performance.

anyone?

I have a question for those with a USDM ej20 swap with the 4.11 RS tranny.
What is the 0-60 time around?


no idea. Never really timed it with mine. 1st gear goes like a bat out of hell.. 2nd is good until the rpm's get above 6200 or so.. Then your out of the powerband.. So i try to shift around then.. No point in wingin it out to 7k to feel like your going nowhere.

no idea. Never really timed it with mine. 1st gear goes like a bat out of hell.. 2nd is good until the rpm's get above 6200 or so.. Then your out of the powerband.. So i try to shift around then.. No point in wingin it out to 7k to feel like your going nowhere.


what speed do you hit at 6200 in 2nd? and do you know what is the most boost you can run off the stock turbo and what boost controller is best to do this? sorry for all the questions but im trying to get a list of all stuff i need to get while im getting my conversion done at east coast swappers thanks

with the 2.5 n/a engine, i don't think it was possible to get to 60 by redline in 2nd gear.. However with the wrx engine being able to rev a bit higher, you could probably achieve 60 in 2nd. Never really bothered to check.

Don't bother with a boost controller.. Just asking for problems. Get an AP or some other engine management. It makes a big difference. :)

ill check on the 0-60 in a 2.5Rs Na engine tomorrow, im almost positive with the 05 its do-able.

with the 2.5 n/a engine, i don't think it was possible to get to 60 by redline in 2nd gear.. However with the wrx engine being able to rev a bit higher, you could probably achieve 60 in 2nd. Never really bothered to check.

Don't bother with a boost controller.. Just asking for problems. Get an AP or some other engine management. It makes a big difference. :)


What does something like that cost and where can I get one? Also, do you know how much boost can the stock turbo produce max

The new Accesport is about 600 bucks. Theres a few other options too.. Look in the engine management forum, and you'll see all the ones available.

As far as boost goes, AP will put you right about 16psi. Really, the stocker isn't big enough to be efficient beyond about 17 or 18 psi i'd say. Theres plenty of info out there. Getting it tuned is a big part.

what about using a laptop? what computer software is there for this?

So ive read all this and im still alittle confused.

Whats it gunna cost to have a Sti motor installed in my 02 2.5rs, with everything i need for the swap?

Whats its gunna cost to have a wrx motor installed with my drivetrain?

Both including labor please, just to get a general idea.

Whether you go STi or wrx engine.. You can still use the same drivetrain thats currently in the car. The only thing you'll need to change is front crossmember, ps pump and lines.

you can get around the X-member if you can get a custom exhaust. i did it on my 98 OBS. i do have a niiice muffler machine tho!

just giving options!

I plan on doing the same thing on replacing my 05 RS engine with a 05 WRX, I have been debating about the Tranny, Due to the fact I do have a lead foot. If I get lucky to find and STI thats being parted out I'll just grab the entire drive train from that. Now as for the Swap I need the engine, ecu, wire-harness, and X-member, and new hood unless I get an FMIC, right???

just wondering if my 2.5 tranny will stand up to the power of the sti engine or will i need RA gears as well

My swap is holding up just fine with rs tranny, stg 1 exedy clutch; mines not a sti swap but crankin same amount of power. just found out im goin have to rewire in the data connector(obd2) to run an AP =(

off topic: 100 mile house eh? i'll be out that way this summer working on a ranch... 26 km's out of williams lake.

just found out im goin have to rewire in the data connector(obd2) to run an AP =(


Its not bad. 2 wires from OBDII connector. 2 from ECU. Thats it.

i have been wondering...
2.5rs block + forged insides + turbo = ?
good idea? bad? i want to build up my 05 rs and then turbo her. but will the block be able to take the pressure? is it as strong as the STi block? i want to build it myself i love doing that kind of work, so what do ya think?:confused:

I'm sure this thread is dead but Who still does engine swaps in California besides Garage tunning. I'm planning on doing a motor swap on a 93 L awd 5spd with a usdm wrx 2.0 motor.

thanks,
Ray

I'm interested in a swap as well, if someone has that info

to take this in another direction. i have a 99 impreza and a ej20 front clip, how hard is it to do the swap (wireing and such i know it bolts in) i have one person telling me that i use the stock wiring from the car and the ej 20 ecu and i have another guy telling me that i have to pull my dash and do over 20 hours of wiring either way i have no problem doing the work i just would like to know what works and what dosent......... please help me!!!!

can be done both ways

option 1- you strip the ej20 harness down an engine specific harness
then tap the 13-18 wires that need to attach to the rest of the car . this works best for the older obd-1 cars and jdm engines

option 2 is to remove both harness from the car/clip and combine necessary when doing usdm swap

Lookin at buying a Subaru impreza 2.5 rs for $1800..with an engine swap due to the previous owner blowing the stock one up...the new engine is already installed on the car ...the engine is one from a stock sti...the only problem is the wiring harness is not hooked up..its there but not connected.... how much of a hassel would it be to hook it up...could someone with a decent amount of knowledge figure it out... the engine only has 13,000 miles....it is a 2002 sti motor ej20t..turbo....with the wiring kit would you have to map it out or does it still have the stock mapping...it comes with a comp/ecu already with it...but is it feasible to have someone besides a mechanic do it..any help would be appreciated...im totally lost on what to do and i need someone to say that it is worth it or dont waste your time...

So... I have an 07' 2.5i,

how easy would it be to get a newer WRX motor (2.5)
or a newer STi motor to bolt up to my stock tranny (5 Speed)

and would it blow chunks of metal all over the street when i took it to redline. i'm looking to have something that is quick (top speed doesn't matter, just as long as i can get there in a hurry!) but also reliable.

granted, i will probably wait until my warrantee is up to do it, i can save cash for the time being.

Anyone have suggestions (by the way... WRX or STi insurance is a killer for 19 year olds and i'm not about to pay it!)

-Mike

It's a reasonably big hassle. You need to take it to someone with experience and expect to pay for 20 hours labour. More if the harnesses have been hacked up already.
What do you know about the condition of the mechanical bits?
Clutch, tranny, rear diff, fuel pump, radiator, etc.

are you talkin about my current situation....cause the sti motor only has 13,000 on it....and im not quite sure but how many wires are there just for the engine to work...is it complicated just to get it semi running..

do i really need to take it to someone...or can it feasably be done in a garage..i have lots of time to work on it cause i already got my reliable car...will it be a rocket and still hold up for the weekend crusies..its pretty much a project cause of the little cost involved to just sit there for now...and im going to college for mechanical engineerin so it would be fun to boggle the electrical engine minds..lol

im thinking of doing this too how did it work out for you???

im thinking of doing this too how did it work out for you???

So... I have an 07' 2.5i,

how easy would it be to get a newer WRX motor (2.5)
or a newer STi motor to bolt up to my stock tranny (5 Speed)

and would it blow chunks of metal all over the street when i took it to redline. i'm looking to have something that is quick (top speed doesn't matter, just as long as i can get there in a hurry!) but also reliable.

granted, i will probably wait until my warrantee is up to do it, i can save cash for the time being.

Anyone have suggestions (by the way... WRX or STi insurance is a killer for 19 year olds and i'm not about to pay it!)

-Mike

insurance would have been around the same for an 04/05 wrx compared to a brand new 07... anyhow if you do engine swap insurance rate doesnt go up and just talk to kevin at garagetuning he only does legal swaps so most likely if you do a swap it comes from an 07 + engine

i might go to kevin @ garagetuning this summer or the next forsure!

I have EJ22T swap on 2.5RS tranny. I put down 244wtq@3600 revs on this tranny. I am a bit scared...hahaha to much torque tranny go kaboom. only have 178whp.....hahaha

it is nice. . . .the car MOVES w/ that torque.