My father is looking at small SUVs under $25,000. He's looking at the Toyota RAV4, Geo Tracker (I hate these POS's), and the Honda CRV. He does do a little offroad traveling. Which of these SUVs is best when the pavement ends? I've heard a nasty rumor in the SUV thread that the CRV has 3 open diffs :eek:

I love our Forester off road. But it's not on your list. :rolleyes:

Mazda Tribute!

Don't touch the CRV, garbage. I'd take a look at the Liberty 4WD. It's the only mini SUV I'd consider for under 25 grand.

-Faast

Ummm...they all Suck

Get an OBS or Forester :p
A jeep wrangler
Spend a little more on a Land Rover Freelander


but if you must....

The tracker is by far the best, has body on frame construction, a real truck suspension, and a real 4wd system..it's not a sissy car based sport ute

Originally posted by SubEd
I love our Forester off road. But it's not on your list. :rolleyes:

It's not my list, it's my fathers. I told my dad get a Subaru, but he's not that smart, he doesn't learn from his mistakes. This is the same man who I told to buy a Toyota pickup used for $4000 instead of the Jeep Commanche he bought for $3200 because it had "low mileage"; he's since put $3000+ into the jeep in an engine, transmission, etc... He refuses to look at Subarus, he says they cost too much and don't have any ground clearance.

SORENTO!!

Nice warranty, nice build quality (really!), nice interior, and it's a real truck.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/347935.jpg
http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/347973.jpg

Originally posted by Frankie Flowers
Mazda Tribute!

I second that; or it's sister the Ford Escape. However, I'd get a Jeep Liberty before either of them.

Originally posted by FunkerVogt


I second that; or it's sister the Ford Escape. However, I'd get a Jeep Liberty before either of them.

Really? All my research says too heavy for the engine.

Originally posted by SubEd


Really? All my research says too heavy for the engine.

The Escape? With the 4 cylinder yes, but with the 6 it's a different story.

No, the Jeep.

Originally posted by micah
SORENTO!!

Nice warranty, nice build quality (really!), nice interior, and it's a real truck.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/pictures/347935.jpg


I agree! It would certainly be my choice at that price point. A real off-roader and a nice truck to boot.

I don't think a CRV has three open diffs, just two. Either way off-roading one is asking for trouble. However, I have a feeling your dad's idea of off-roading is a gravel road so it should be fine.

Trackers would be best of the three off-road, but I doubt reliability is strong.

RAV4s, same as the CRV. Weak in real off-road, but fine for a dirt road.

IIRC, the Forester has more ground clearance than a CRV or RAV4 BTW.

JC

Originally posted by SubEd
Really? All my research says too heavy for the engine.

It's certainly no screamer, but I think it can keep up with traffic just fine.

JC

My wife's got a RAV4 and it's way underpowered (especially with an automatic). It struggles to get up little mountains in West VA.
Can't comment on the off-roadability since it never goes there. For under $25K I'd go with the Liberty. For a little over $25K I'd go with a supercharged Xterra.

is safety a consideration? (amazingly its not for some people)


check out the escapes crash test results...not good

reliable, superb in the snow, good gas mileage, lots of room (especially compared to the RAV)...highly recommended!!!!! Keith

Is the Forestor 3 LSDs, or 2 LSDs and open front diff?

Also my dad was saying something about positive traction :confused: Is that some kind of hillbilly term for limited slip differential?

Positraction... 1960's or musclecar for LSD. :)

Ok I see the forestor is rear LSD only in the XS or better series, so the front must still be open :(

Does your father do a lot of serious offroading? If not, tell him to stop with the SUV fad. He would be much better off with a WRX. Too small??? Tell him to buy a Madza6. Mini utes don't offer anything worthwhile of their cost, unless he drives on a lot of muddy rugged trials which I seriously doubt. And even if he doe, most small utes can't even do that well. :rolleyes:

posi-track is limited slip.

This is a drawback on the CRV...it does not have limited slip. If both tires on one side slip you a screwed. That is why it is great on paved roads or gravel roads...but ain't too good off-road. But since I don't off road, it works for me. I have driven in a lot of snow. I also have taught to teens to drive in it. I took both out TRYING to get stuck in the snow with it but couldn't. I had to go home and switch car to show them 2 wheel drive short-comings in the snow.

The CRV is a great all-around small SUV. My second choice would be the Sante Fe by Hyund. (I thing that is the name). The RAV is super but too small. The Liberty's ride sucks, too rough. The Escape/Tribute are second rate compared to Honda and Toyota. My two cents!!! Like I said, I have two CRV's, one WRX, and one Town & Country Mini Van (two teenage driver's, my wife and I).

You didn't list it, but it's under $25K, and it is lumped in with the "mini-SUV" group, although no self-respecting owner would ever call it that.

Jeep Wrangler. No question.

http://pics.montypics.com/drewski/2002-08-11/ata_stss.jpg

And "positraction" or "Posi" as it's more commonly known is a term for limited slip. Try mattsauto.com for more automotive terminology basics.

"A positraction differential is a special traction differential. Its purpose is to improve the way your differential performs under adverse conditions. When one wheel starts to slip, these differentials transfer the torque to the wheel that is not slipping. The car can then continue to go forward. There are several different kinds of positraction differentials, but all of them are based on a friction device to provide resistance to normal differential operation.

A positraction differential provides better traction, which is handy when roads are slippery. It also lends itself to fast acceleration.

One type uses four differential pinions instead of two, with two pinion shafts. It also uses a series of four clutch discs. The differential pinions run into resistance when they try to turn the axle side gears. The resistance gets transferred to the pinion shafts driving the pinions. The shafts are forced to slide up little ramps. This action moves both shafts outward. The pinions cause the clutches to lock.

Other types use cone clutches, or disc clutches under pressure from coil springs. By restricting the differential action, torque is delivered to the slipping wheel."

Originally posted by b_tapper
Ummm...they all Suck

Get an OBS or Forester :p
A jeep wrangler
Spend a little more on a Land Rover Freelander


but if you must....

The tracker is by far the best, has body on frame construction, a real truck suspension, and a real 4wd system..it's not a sissy car based sport ute

You got to be ******* kidding me, Trackers are a joke, ZR2 or not. Hell if your going to get a Tracker you might as well get a Kia Sportage. If you are worried about off road capability, it comes to two choices. The Liberty and the Freelander. My mom owns a Liberty with the 3.7 and it does just fine. It's a real truck and it does well on the trails. I think they put a 2.4 in the base model Liberty, which sounds like bad juju to me. Then theres the Freelander which is very capable but a bit pricey. I'd stay away from the CRV, RAV4 and the Forester, but thats just my opinion.

-Faast

I would say if he wants an offroader, get a Toyota Tacoma 4x4 extended cab with TRD offroad pkg and 4 cylinder. Skip the SUVs if he is going wheeling. If he isn't doing a ton of wheeling I would go with the Tribute too. If he wants to go used but fun find a very late-model Isuzu Amigo/Rodeo Sport 2 Dr. with the 3.5. Those things are pretty quick. And fun too. But if he is gonna do much wheelin, make it a Toy or Jeep.

Or spend a little more and get a Jeep Rubicon. I am not much for Jeeps short wheelbase myslef though.

Tell him to buy a Madza6.
I will say that the new Mazda 6's are pretty nice. I drove a 4 cylinder today. My buddy works for Mazda so we could kind of take some liberties with it. That car has a lot of nice features for the $$$. Nice handling car. They will have a 5 dr./hatchback and wagon in about 8 months. The wagon looks kinda like the Protege5. Turbo 4 with AWD is very heavily being considered for US market too.

Originally posted by QuikLegacy
You got to be ******* kidding me, Trackers are a joke, ZR2 or not. Hell if your going to get a Tracker you might as well get a Kia Sportage. If you are worried about off road capability, it comes to two choices. The Liberty and the Freelander. My mom owns a Liberty with the 3.7 and it does just fine. It's a real truck and it does well on the trails. I think they put a 2.4 in the base model Liberty, which sounds like bad juju to me. Then theres the Freelander which is very capable but a bit pricey. I'd stay away from the CRV, RAV4 and the Forester, but thats just my opinion.

-Faast

That's a very valid point as Kias are also some of the best off-roaders there are. You obviously know very little about SUVs and most likely off-roading in general. Freelanders are nice but they have no low range, which limits off-road capablility significantly.

JC

Originally posted by TeeWReX
You didn't list it, but it's under $25K, and it is lumped in with the "mini-SUV" group, although no self-respecting owner would ever call it that.

Jeep Wrangler. No question.



My dad just sunk $3000 into a Jeep Commanche with 30,000 miles on it. He has had enough "Jeep reliability" for a lifetime, there's no way he'll ever buy another Jeep.

I also agree w/ the Kia. On all the off road boards, according to a buddy of mine, they said the Kia is awesome. I believe it has locking diffs.

Mike~~

Forester or Saturn Vue or Hyundai

Originally posted by HoRo1
Forester or Saturn Vue or Hyundai

Oh god no, not a Saturn.

JC

Corn-Picker, how far off-road does your dad go? If just some gravel roads, almost anything will do. If serious off-roading, probably the Jeep Liberty is the best.

Originally posted by Mike Wevrick
Corn-Picker, how far off-road does your dad go? If just some gravel roads, almost anything will do. If serious off-roading, probably the Jeep Liberty is the best.

He won't be doing any rock crawling, but he will be on a lot of dirt/mud non-paved (and non-graveled) roads. In that situation I'd think he would want to avoid anything with open diffs in the front and rear, otherwise he could be screwed if he goes into a little ditch.

The tracker is a great offroad vehicle
Sure it's old and outdated, but it is way better than any of the others he's considering. It's the only one with low range

The tracker, wrangler, liberty, and sportage are the only sport utes that are worth anything offroad for under $25k

The cr-v and rav 4's are basically cars made to look like sport utes.

Originally posted by Corn-Picker
He won't be doing any rock crawling, but he will be on a lot of dirt/mud non-paved (and non-graveled) roads. In that situation I'd think he would want to avoid anything with open diffs in the front and rear, otherwise he could be screwed if he goes into a little ditch.

The Sorento really is the best choice.

JC

Originally posted by Corn-Picker



My dad just sunk $3000 into a Jeep Commanche with 30,000 miles on it. He has had enough "Jeep reliability" for a lifetime, there's no way he'll ever buy another Jeep.

That's unfortunate. My "Jeep reliability" history has been spotless, based on the Jeep Wranglers (CJ, TJ) that I have had. They're great for real off-roading (i.e., more agressive terrain than a gravel road :D ) and a blast with the top down too. Personally, I like all kinds of automotive hobbying, be it autocrossing, drag racing, rallying, four-wheeling, whatever, so I try to buy whatever is best at what it's built for. Oh well, good luck.

http://pics.montypics.com/drewski/2002-12-22/alittlemud.jpg

Originally posted by TeeWReX
That's unfortunate. My "Jeep reliability" history has been spotless, based on the Jeep Wranglers (CJ, TJ) that I have had. They're great for real off-roading (i.e., more agressive terrain than a gravel road :D ) and a blast with the top down too. Personally, I like all kinds of automotive hobbying, be it autocrossing, drag racing, rallying, four-wheeling, whatever, so I try to buy whatever is best at what it's built for. Oh well, good luck.

Mine has been less than stellar with both Jeeps. Only my SJ left me stranded, but neither it nor my parents YJ were super reliable.

JC

The old square-light YJs weren't known to be great in the reliability dept. TJs are a much-more capable vehicle. CJs are CJs. Thats what I would be building for a weekend toy. But I would rather have an M715 (the Viet Nam-era Jeep-Kaiser truck). 40"s with no lifting!

I was at Silver Lake once a few years ago. A guy drove up in a YJ and asked if the noise his YJ was making sounded bad. It sounded like a rod was gonna go through the hood. I told him that it wasn't healthy at all. He then stated that he better head home. He had Indiana plates on it too. Don't know if he ever made it.

The most capable 4WD I've ever been in was an old short wheel based International my father owned. I can't remember the model name though. My father also had an International Scout which was great off-road. Unfortunately it completely rusted in two years and tended to stall if throttle wasn't being applied...

Originally posted by JC


That's a very valid point as Kias are also some of the best off-roaders there are. You obviously know very little about SUVs and most likely off-roading in general. Freelanders are nice but they have no low range, which limits off-road capablility significantly.

JC


And your an expert on off-roading?? I know very little about SUV's, ok if you say so:rolleyes:. Anyway, on what are you basing your observation that a Kia is a good off-road vehicle, a commercial you saw on TV with a Sportage in the Dakar rally? On the basis that it has a 4LO function? Or do you own one and this is a case of a bias opinion? The purpose built racers in the Baja and Dakar are a far cry from the Sportages you see on the road. Production Kia's are garbage, on and off the road. I've known a couple of people who have owned them and I drove one once, I've never heard a nice thing said about the Sportage. No self-respecting four wheeler would ever take out a Kia on the trails, at least none that I have seen. They are poorly built and unreliable. I'll tell you what, if you are the expert you claim to be, the next time you go out to Moab, count how many Kia's you see, then count how many Jeeps and Land Rovers. Kia's were never meant to go offroad, at least not in the same capacity that a Wrangler or a Disco can.

-Faast


Off-Roading Kia's=waste of money

Originally posted by QuikLegacy
And your an expert on off-roading?? I know very little about SUV's, ok if you say so:rolleyes:. Anyway, on what are you basing your observation that a Kia is a good off-road vehicle, a commercial you saw on TV with a Sportage in the Dakar rally? On the basis that it has a 4LO function? Or do you own one and this is a case of a bias opinion? The purpose built racers in the Baja and Dakar are a far cry from the Sportages you see on the road. Production Kia's are garbage, on and off the road. I've known a couple of people who have owned them and I drove one once, I've never heard a nice thing said about the Sportage. No self-respecting four wheeler would ever take out a Kia on the trails, at least none that I have seen. They are poorly built and unreliable. I'll tell you what, if you are the expert you claim to be, the next time you go out to Moab, count how many Kia's you see, then count how many Jeeps and Land Rovers. Kia's were never meant to go offroad, at least not in the same capacity that a Wrangler or a Disco can.

-Faast


Off-Roading Kia's=waste of money

Actually, I've never owned a Kia nor driven a Sportage. The only vehicles I've really off-roaded were a Jeep SJ, YJ, and a Disco. Keep in mind, he's not talking about rock-crawling here, just rough trails. As a matter of a fact, 4LO does mean a lot when most of the competition doesn't have it, as does body on frame construction. I think what you mean is if you are building a hardcore off-roader the Kia isn't a good choice, which it's not. That's not what we're talking about though, in light wheeling situations it does much better than it's cute-ute counterparts.

JC

I would never buy any Jeep just because of the reliability problems. Nothing worse than having your vehicle break down in the middle of nowhere when you know there will be nobody else along for a long time ...

Tell him not to overlook the Rodeo Sport from Isuzu. I love that truck. You get a lot for the $ too.

I thought they stopped making Jeeps in 1986?

Originally posted by JC


The Sorento really is the best choice.

JC

Thanks, I'll tell him to check that one out. The 10/100,000 warranty should intrest him. Thanks for all of the advice, you've been most helpful.

The 192 HP is more than I expected from a Kia (I used to own a POS Aspire before my WRX). Street weight of 4,400 pounds on the Sorento though, might not haul that much ass but it should be enough. MSRP of just over $21,000 for a 4x4 too.

Originally posted by 4x4GGG
I thought they stopped making Jeeps in 1986?

Hey buddy. My Grand Wagoneer was a real Jeep and could show your little round headlight runabout a thing or two.

JC

Originally posted by JC


Hey buddy. My Grand Wagoneer was a real Jeep and could show your little round headlight runabout a thing or two.

JC

Hypotheticly -

Diemler decides to sell the name Jeep to Chevy.

Chevy takes the Jeep logo and slaps it onto the 2 door convertable Tracker. They now call the Tracker the Jeep Buckaroo. Every 16 year old girl on the planet goes out and buys one. Then the frat boys start buying them, adding the accesorries, lifting them, etc.

Then Chevy starts commercials talking about 70 years of Jeep history, and how it has always been there and blah blah blah.

Question - Is it still a Jeep?

Originally posted by 4x4GGG
Hypotheticly -

Diemler decides to sell the name Jeep to Chevy.

Chevy takes the Jeep logo and slaps it onto the 2 door convertable Tracker. They now call the Tracker the Jeep Buckaroo. Every 16 year old girl on the planet goes out and buys one. Then the frat boys start buying them, adding the accesorries, lifting them, etc.

Then Chevy starts commercials talking about 70 years of Jeep history, and how it has always been there and blah blah blah.

Question - Is it still a Jeep?

No, but that really doesn't back up your point. Last I checked Chrysler didn't just rebadge any vehicles to be Jeeps. Not to mention kept producing the same vehicles AMC did. Not to mention AMC wasn't the manufacturer of the original Jeep. Though I suppose they argueably brought it it's current image.

JC

Originally posted by JC


No, but that really doesn't back up your point. Last I checked Chrysler didn't just rebadge any vehicles to be Jeeps. Not to mention kept producing the same vehicles AMC did. Not to mention AMC wasn't the manufacturer of the original Jeep. Though I suppose they argueably brought it it's current image.

JC

1st off... the dodge wrangler is one of the best off road vehicles in production. I don't question that.

It's the mass marketing. It's the plastic. It's the cloth seats. I know the 1987 Wrangler was designed by AMC, but I still think the soul of Jeep died in 1986.

Originally posted by 4x4GGG
It's the mass marketing. It's the plastic. It's the cloth seats. I know the 1987 Wrangler was designed by AMC, but I still think the soul of Jeep died in 1986.

It's evolution. To me the soul of Jeep has nothing to do with uncomfortable seats and steel dashboards. To me the soul of Jeep is a vehicle that the average Joe can buy for not a lot of money, throw in the wife/kids or friends, and go enjoy nature. Being it off-roading or just getting them off the beaten path. That's a Jeep to me and the Wrangler still captures that, just in a nicer body. I don't like the macho image of it being tough and unsophisticated, to me that has nothing to do with a Jeep is just what technology forced it to be at the time. If you were really tough you'd walk. ;)

JC

Originally posted by JC


It's evolution. To me the soul of Jeep has nothing to do with uncomfortable seats and steel dashboards. To me the soul of Jeep is a vehicle that the average Joe can buy for not a lot of money, throw in the wife/kids or friends, and go enjoy nature. Being it off-roading or just getting them off the beaten path. That's a Jeep to me and the Wrangler still captures that, just in a nicer body. I don't like the macho image of it being tough and unsophisticated, to me that has nothing to do with a Jeep is just what technology forced it to be at the time. If you were really tough you'd walk. ;)

JC

True.

But... ever hose out the interior of a wrangler, hop in and go? Wet seats. Yea the seats are uncomfortable, but for a reason. Steel - stronger than plastic.

Im not a big fan of SUV's period. That's well know. I think they have become too sissified for their original pourpus. For me, a good solid off roader -

- 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport.
- 1.5 Shackle lift
- 33in tires.
- Rip out the carpets, have the interior Rhino Lined.
- Install a 1 foot track (front to back) on the back of the back seat.
- Install a fork mount up tight to back cab space, moutian bike loads in rear tire first.


I think the Wrangler has become a victim of comfort and mass marketing.

Originally posted by 4x4GGG
True.

But... ever hose out the interior of a wrangler, hop in and go? Wet seats. Yea the seats are uncomfortable, but for a reason. Steel - stronger than plastic.

Im not a big fan of SUV's period. That's well know. I think they have become too sissified for their original pourpus. For me, a good solid off roader -

- 2000 Jeep Cherokee Sport.
- 1.5 Shackle lift
- 33in tires.
- Rip out the carpets, have the interior Rhino Lined.
- Install a 1 foot track (front to back) on the back of the back seat.
- Install a fork mount up tight to back cab space, moutian bike loads in rear tire first.


I think the Wrangler has become a victim of comfort and mass marketing.

Don't get me wrong I see your point. You can still hose out a Wrangler, just need to cover up the seats. I know because I have friends that have done it.

There is no doubt that the new Wrangler is softer. BUT a new Rubicon is better off-road in all aspect than a CJ, all while being more reliable and comfortable. I just don't see the problem.

I like Cherokees, but I think my next SUV will be Japanese. I want a decent sized SUV without a top and the older 4Runners are really the only ones that fit the bill. Don't tell me those aren't real off-roaders either.

Don't even get me started on the recent swarm of SUVs. Most cute-utes make me want to puke. And all these RX300s and MDXs, good lord buy a station wagon! My favorite part is when they review them in magazines (car mags mind you) and proclaim they have actual off-road ability. HA! My parents Outback could probably out wheel those POS'.

JC

Stay away from the Chevy Tracker and the Nissan Xterra.. both garbage.

My wife has a Tracker, and a co-worker has a Xterra.

Originally posted by JC


Don't get me wrong I see your point. You can still hose out a Wrangler, just need to cover up the seats. I know because I have friends that have done it.

There is no doubt that the new Wrangler is softer. BUT a new Rubicon is better off-road in all aspect than a CJ, all while being more reliable and comfortable. I just don't see the problem.

I like Cherokees, but I think my next SUV will be Japanese. I want a decent sized SUV without a top and the older 4Runners are really the only ones that fit the bill. Don't tell me those aren't real off-roaders either.

Don't even get me started on the recent swarm of SUVs. Most cute-utes make me want to puke. And all these RX300s and MDXs, good lord buy a station wagon! My favorite part is when they review them in magazines (car mags mind you) and proclaim they have actual off-road ability. HA! My parents Outback could probably out wheel those POS'.

JC

Ha ha... I'm the one who shouldn't start on SUV's.

(Hint - if you don't already know about it, do a search using my screen name and licence plate. When you find it... you'll laugh)

Originally posted by 4x4GGG
Ha ha... I'm the one who shouldn't start on SUV's.

(Hint - if you don't already know about it, do a search using my screen name and licence plate. When you find it... you'll laugh)

I found a thread of you asking some girl for her picture? :confused: lol, you've got some balls to have that plate.

JC

Originally posted by JC


I found a thread of you asking some girl for her picture? :confused: lol, you've got some balls to have that plate.

JC

Buggirl. When you see the pic of her you'll understand.

I like Cherokees, but I think my next SUV will be Japanese. I want a decent sized SUV without a top and the older 4Runners are really the only ones that fit the bill. Don't tell me those aren't real off-roaders either.

If you want a roof over your head (with the removable option), the 1985 4Runner is the way to go if you are gonna build an offroader. The only 4Runners with the FI 22RE and no IFS! They are getting harder to come by though.

Originally posted by Rattler
If you want a roof over your head (with the removable option), the 1985 4Runner is the way to go if you are gonna build an offroader. The only 4Runners with the FI 22RE and no IFS! They are getting harder to come by though.

Saw a non-running one with a good body for $500 a few months ago. Wish I had had the money. :(

JC

JC, if you find out where it is let me know ASAP. I have a 22RE sitting in my garage.

I got a Legacy wagon for a winter beater but I would rather have that with the option to take muddin. That is what I miss about not having my TOy PU anymore. :(

Originally posted by Rattler
JC, if you find out where it is let me know ASAP. I have a 22RE sitting in my garage.

I got a Legacy wagon for a winter beater but I would rather have that with the option to take muddin. That is what I miss about not having my TOy PU anymore. :(

It's in Nevada, probably too far for you.

JC

I had an Xterra before trading in for my Subie. That was a great ride and it was under $25K for me.

You might also want to consider a Montero Sport, though the Sorento is my first choice.

JC

i've done serious test driving of crv and Rav4. of those two, the rav is the clear winner. the honda is the sux0rs.

my very honest opinion of the best suv under 25,000 is Forester and Santa Fe

I thought it was VERY notable that the Santa Fe was the only worthy competitor of the Forester ABSENT from the Ride and Drive for the 2003 Forester Debut!

Of all the Tests we put the cars through, I replicated them with the Santa Fe (as best I could) and the Santa Fe pretty much kept up with the Forester the whole way.

EDIT: Oh yeah, a separate time I drove a CRV, it had a VERY difficult time pulling up over a CURB!

CRV = POS

Originally posted by bjlee
i've done serious test driving of crv and Rav4. of those two, the rav is the clear winner. the honda is the sux0rs.

my very honest opinion of the best suv under 25,000 is Forester and Santa Fe

I thought it was VERY notable that the Santa Fe was the only worthy competitor of the Forester ABSENT from the Ride and Drive for the 2003 Forester Debut!

Of all the Tests we put the cars through, I replicated them with the Santa Fe (as best I could) and the Santa Fe pretty much kept up with the Forester the whole way.

EDIT: Oh yeah, a separate time I drove a CRV, it had a VERY difficult time pulling up over a CURB!

CRV = POS

This off-road or on-road? I've heard of reliability problems with Santa Fes which is the main reason I hesitate to recommend them.

JC

this is on road, and really light off road (as the segment is designed for).

The Santa Fe has it's kinks worked out. The first year was the only problem I heard of, and it was a very small number of vehicles affected from what I understand (sleeve/head thing). Other than that, the only other problem I've heard of was problems with the starter due to a DEALER INSTALLED option not offered by Hyundai.

The CRV has a REALLY bad steering system, and equally bad AWD system. I've seen several car critics lambast the CRV for it's shortcomings and relying on the [H] on the hood to sell (which it does quite nicely!) There are many reasons I could go into why the CRV sucks, but many of them are kind of trivial but all add up to something substantial in the end. The RAV4 is pretty nice, but I'm bothered by the fact it doesn't have rear bumper! :eek:

I would put them in this order: Forester first, then the RAV and Santa Fe tied for second with the tie breaker being desired size of vehicle. (i.e. want more space, Santa Fe, want more compact, RAV4)

IIRC the Santa Fe is the only other AWD vehicle in it's segment to have a Limited Slip (Full time viscous coupling) center diff besides the Forester. I think all the others were On-Demand systems

Xterra. It is not a POS. It is a tough actual truck/SUV unlike the poser-mobiles mentioned above (excluding Jeeps). I own a Xterra 4x4 and love it. An actual frame with *gasp* a solid rear axle!!!

If your dad is going to get a SUV for $25k and is looking at the models you mentioned, get an Outback, Forester, or something that isn't such a waste.

my 2 cents,
forced4

Who was the last manufacturer to offer a 4x4 with Warn locking hubs?








Nissan

Originally posted by forced4
Xterra. It is not a POS. It is a tough actual truck/SUV unlike the poser-mobiles mentioned above (excluding Jeeps). I own a Xterra 4x4 and love it. An actual frame with *gasp* a solid rear axle!!!

If your dad is going to get a SUV for $25k and is looking at the models you mentioned, get an Outback, Forester, or something that isn't such a waste.

my 2 cents,
forced4

Although it was built correctly, I think the poser status comes from the fact that a bunch of fat lazy wanna be Hans Rey's like in their commercial are the one driving them.

my sis is most likely going to buy a Hyundai Sante Fe All-wheel Drive LX for around $23,690 (2.7L V-6 181HP engine)

then i am going to get her to buy this...for $2600

Aqua-cooled Supercharger Kit (adds 50.6-HP and 38.8-ft/lbs Torque) :devil:

Originally posted by 4x4GGG


Although it was built correctly, I think the poser status comes from the fact that a bunch of fat lazy wanna be Hans Rey's like in their commercial are the one driving them.

Go tell the people at www.xterraownersclub.com that :)

Originally posted by Hank3


Go tell the people at www.xterraownersclub.com that :)

I already did. See where it got me.


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Originally posted by 4x4GGG


I already did. See where it got me.


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Forgotten your password?

I just posted a couple of times and it worked fine for me. Were you trying to get on there to troll and start a flame war? If so, XOC is pretty nit-picky about that kind of stuff...

Originally posted by Hank3


I just posted a couple of times and it worked fine for me...

Yea...uuummmm... welll..... Notice the part where it says the admin may have disabled your account?

Then play nice :)

Foresters Rock. The best evar :D

Well, I had to respond to the unsubstantiated claim of the Xterra being "garbage".

If one is shopping in the category it is certainly worth looking at the Xterra.

I have been driving one since last August, purchased new. 30k miles later, and numerous trips to New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, Utah. California, Nuevo Leon, Tamaulipas, San Luis Potosi, I am quite happy and have had no major problems.

It is a truly capable off roader, but exhibits nice on road manners. The v6 has been a workhorse in the Nissan lineup for quite a while and has a good, reliable track record.

The Xterra is certaibly not for everyone. It is a truck, not a car dressed up. The mileage is not he best. But if one is planning on actually going off road, it is worth a look.

A few photos of Sport and Utility...a rare thing in many of today's suvs.

http://www.anthonysloan.com/xterra.html

Best,

A

I have found that xterraownersclub.com to be very helpful and informative....albeit there is nowhere near the same number of people on it as this board.



2001 Xterra XE 4x4 V6 Auto
w/ Utility Package, Sports Package, Power Package
:D

forced4

Originally posted by 4x4GGG
I think the poser status comes from the fact that a bunch of fat lazy wanna be Hans Rey's like in their commercial are the one driving them.

I'd ask you to name one SUV with a rugged image that doesn't have people using their vehicle as a mall runner, but that's impossible. Every SUV has fat lazy people driving it. Why? Because middle aged guys don't want to drive a mini-van unless it has 4x4 Offroad stickers all over it, and people beleive they can offroad it (please, you'd be laughing if you saw a Dodge Caravan with 4x4 Stickers on it).

Xterra's are Garabage, eh? Never had any major problems with mine.

I've seen Foresters, Liberty's, (grand)Cherokees, Wranglers, Troopers, Xterra's, Pathfinders, Explorers, 4Runners, Land Rovers, Suzuki's, and plenty of other vehicles on the trails. SAome highly modified, many completely stock (like Xterra's, Liberty's, and Foresters)

Never have I seen a Escape, CRV, RAV4, on the trail. I never excpet to see one there either. You'd have to be crazy to even think of taking one of those off the road.

I wouldn't ever try to offroad a vehicle with IRS, and I certainly would do a Rav4, CRV, or otherso-called mini-ute. The only mini utes I'd even think about wheeling would be the Liberty and the Forester, and the forester would be a stretch.

As for the "posuer" and "garbage" comments:
Rocks:
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1481007/17315900.jpg
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1481007/17315776.jpg
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1463825/17369099.jpg

Water:
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1378643/16089264.jpg
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1463825/17369101.jpg

Mud:
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1378643/16089257.jpg
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1378643/16090573.jpg

Yawwwwwnnnnnnnnnn....:)

Nice comments Rockaholic...and of course pictures demonstrate even better.

I get pissed off everytime I see an Excursion, Expedition, EXPLORER, and Lexus, Acura, BMW, Mercedes etc SUV with a driver that doesn't demonstrate compentency even on pavement...and then there are the cellphone issues (but that is a different thread altogether).

The new wave of IRS and car based chassis is complete crap. They are supposed to be trucks, and therefore ride like one.
I have no problems with owning a SUV as long as it isn't just for show....Use it or get a Camry people. :monkey:

forced4

Originally posted by Rockaholic


I'd ask you to name one SUV with a rugged image that doesn't have people using their vehicle as a mall runner, but that's impossible. Every SUV has fat lazy people driving it. Why? Because middle aged guys don't want to drive a mini-van unless it has 4x4 Offroad stickers all over it, and people beleive they can offroad it (please, you'd be laughing if you saw a Dodge Caravan with 4x4 Stickers on it).

Xterra's are Garabage, eh? Never had any major problems with mine.



My original comment started with: Although it was built correctly...

I never said garbage. It would be my second pick right after a Dodge Cherokee Sport.

Nice ride though. we have 4 in our parking lot. 3 owned by middle aged women, one by a guy. None have ever seen even a gravel road. Hence my statement in it's entierty -

Although it was built correctly, I think the poser status comes from the fact that a bunch of fat lazy wanna be Hans Rey's like in their commercial are the one driving them.

People want to be as cool as Hans rey was rock hopping up a water wall. It's the ultimate ride for posures, because it's a decent off roader, looks cool, and was marketed as the "cool people's SUV"

Originally posted by forced4
I have found that xterraownersclub.com to be very helpful and informative....albeit there is nowhere near the same number of people on it as this board.



2001 Xterra XE 4x4 V6 Auto
w/ Utility Package, Sports Package, Power Package
:D

forced4

I used to hang out on a Jeep board being a big fan of the pre 86. One thing I noticed about Scooby people that's different from all the other "type" car boards - Da Bears!. What I mean is there are always people on the boards are die hards, and do not waver even in the face of proof. These Jeep guys would talk trash on obviously superior vehicles, and always talk about how the Jeep can climb trees, and blah blah blah. I saw some of that in the X-Terra forum, pointed it out, and hence the ban.

At least here on I-club, I mean NASIO - club you don't hear people "Yea! I took on this Vette last night and I destroyed it! His 400 HP was no competition for my Turbo and AWD!"

Originally posted by Rockaholic


I wouldn't ever try to offroad a vehicle with IRS,

What about the original Humvee? :)

I know the Humvee had the huge tunnel running through the middle, so it was a little different than your average street SUV like the H2.

Originally posted by Rockaholic
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1481007/17315900.jpg
http://pic1.picturetrail.com/VOL131/784001/1481007/17315776.jpg


That's a sad amount of flex. What does an Xterra RTI at? Here is our stock Discovery and that's not all out...

http://members.nasioc.com/UserPics/679/flex.jpg

JC

Is that Disco levitating in mid air?:eek: It looks like there is nothing under the rear wheels while the front wheels are on rocks. Almost looks like a photochop.

BTW: Does an Xterra have a low range transfer case?

-Faast

2 words: jeep wrangler, rubicon edition.

it's about 25k. but believe you and me, when i say (as a lifelong toyota turck owner), this guy will kick ass everywhere.

i mean, jeep threw everything they can, well except that 3" or more lift, on this guy:

* front and rear electric lockers
* very low gear LOW RANGE
* nice tire package (although small at 31")
* dana 44 axles front and rear

i mean, people do that above to their wranglers AFTEr they buy it.

so now, you can go to the dealer and buy it with a warranty...

so it's like buying a prodrive WRC car (well almost) and can go back to the dealer for a broken piece... :D

Originally posted by QuikLegacy
BTW: Does an Xterra have a low range transfer case?

-Faast

It does have one. I had to use a 4L a few times when I had my X when off-roading with group at Tellico:)

Originally posted by Corn-Picker


What about the original Humvee? :)

I know the Humvee had the huge tunnel running through the middle, so it was a little different than your average street SUV like the H2.

the thing with the original HMMWVs is that they have a great go anywhere attitude.

but rock crawling aint one of them.

in the west coast, rock crawling is the preferred way. in the south and east, mud running and going fast through a mud bog is the way.

so it just depends where you are.

me, being on the west coast, we like to go slow and high:

http://www.sbe.csuhayward.edu/~ldivinag/go4wd/

about :50 sec into it, that green 4runner is mine... :D careful 17MB download...

going back to someone's plug for the VUE - the only vehicle in it's segment worse than the CRV. and i think i've made myself clear on the CRV.

I started to play that video hear at work but it was too loud for now. Please tell me someone didn't copy the Linkin Park idea for making a video.

Originally posted by QuikLegacy
Is that Disco levitating in mid air?:eek: It looks like there is nothing under the rear wheels while the front wheels are on rocks. Almost looks like a photochop.

-Faast

It's actually on pavement. ;) Here's some better pics...
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=291868

Originally posted by ldivinag
the thing with the original HMMWVs is that they have a great go anywhere attitude.

but rock crawling aint one of them.

I agree with that. I like Hummers, but it wouldn't get up most of my favorite trails, simply too big.

JC

Originally posted by 4x4GGG


True.

But... ever hose out the interior of a wrangler, hop in and go? Wet seats. Yea the seats are uncomfortable, but for a reason. Steel - stronger than plastic.

Im not a big fan of SUV's period. That's well know. I think they have become too sissified for their original pourpus. For me, a good solid off roader -

*snip*

I think the Wrangler has become a victim of comfort and mass marketing.

Based on what? The fact that the Wrangler no longer has a metal dash? That it has a safety cage? That it has (*gasp*) coil suspension? Other than those a few other items, it's still the same rig, with the same purpose (or "pourpus" :lol: ) BTW, ever heard of the Wrangler Rubicon?

What it has become a "victim of" are things like better gas mileage, better highway manners, better offroad drivability (yes the coils even have better articulation than the leafs) and more safety features. Still, it's not a wannabe off roader (CRV, et al.); it's the real thing, and the best bang for the off-road buck available. And who judges a vehicle based on some messages on a fan web site??? If I did that, I certainly wouldn't own a WRX right now. I bought this car because I thought it was the best at what it was built for. Just like the Wrangler. And it's better than it's ever been. Ever heard of the Wrangler Rubicon? So please, save your time and the bandwidth for someplace that undocumented, inexperienced opinions are appropriate: topics like body kits and carbon-fiber dash kits.

Merry Christmas.

Originally posted by TeeWReX


Based on what? The fact that the Wrangler no longer has a metal dash? That it has a safety cage? That it has (*gasp*) coil suspension? Other than those a few other items, it's still the same rig, with the same purpose (or "pourpus" :lol: ) BTW, ever heard of the Wrangler Rubicon?

What it has become a "victim of" are things like better gas mileage, better highway manners, better offroad drivability (yes the coils even have better articulation than the leafs) and more safety features. Still, it's not a wannabe off roader (CRV, et al.); it's the real thing, and the best bang for the off-road buck available. And who judges a vehicle based on some messages on a fan web site??? If I did that, I certainly wouldn't own a WRX right now. I bought this car because I thought it was the best at what it was built for. Just like the Wrangler. And it's better than it's ever been. Ever heard of the Wrangler Rubicon? So please, save your time and the bandwidth for someplace that undocumented, inexperienced opinions are appropriate: topics like body kits and carbon-fiber dash kits.

Merry Christmas.

Grow up dude.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Another vote for "most SUVs are pointless", but here's my list:

1. Forester (all the "SUV" that 99.5% will ever need), built-in-Japan quality.
2. lightly used Pathfinder (my fiancee has a '97 SE w/40k on it.. A wee short on power (168hp 3.3L), but torquey, very nice and quite capable off road with low transfer case (coil suspension and unit body are nice rarities too).
3. lightly used 4Runner (any '90s model with a manual shift, or for even more rare fun an '80s turbo :))

lb
www.trancelab.com

Originally posted by 4x4GGG


Grow up dude.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Ummm, ok.

Good argument too. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by TeeWReX


Ummm, ok.

Good argument too. :rolleyes:
Yes, I would have to say I was sorely confused by that retort. What is the imitation we're referring too? I'm lost :(

Originally posted by 4x4GGG
I started to play that video hear at work but it was too loud for now. Please tell me someone didn't copy the Linkin Park idea for making a video.

Sure did, decent video. Though off-roading tends to make boring videos IMHO.

Originally posted by LordBass
1. Forester (all the "SUV" that 99.5% will ever need), built-in-Japan quality.
2. lightly used Pathfinder (my fiancee has a '97 SE w/40k on it.. A wee short on power (168hp 3.3L), but torquey, very nice and quite capable off road with low transfer case (coil suspension and unit body are nice rarities too).
3. lightly used 4Runner (any '90s model with a manual shift, or for even more rare fun an '80s turbo )

1) True most people don't off-road their SUVs, but it's more than .5%.
2) I knew one girl with a pathfinder. Two transmissions and one engine later it's in the junkyard now. Could be isolated I suppose, but IIRC they have problems.
3) I agree

JC

Though off-roading tends to make boring videos IMHO.

I get a kick out of the guy that intentionally rolls his Jeep. He's a rockcrawler. His name is Mr. Ed or something like that. I have seen his videos on different TV shows like Real TV and such. His wife is usually going ballistic at him when he does it.

Originally posted by Rattler
I get a kick out of the guy that intentionally rolls his Jeep. He's a rockcrawler. His name is Mr. Ed or something like that. I have seen his videos on different TV shows like Real TV and such. His wife is usually going ballistic at him when he does it.

Haha, don't think I've seen him before.

JC

I found a website that has some video clips. I haven't tried any of them though.

http://www.4x4now.com/mreds.htm

Originally posted by micah

Yes, I would have to say I was sorely confused by that retort. What is the imitation we're referring too? I'm lost :(

Sorry... didn't have time.

I have been in this debate a million times.

The logo Dodge used for their Jeep line of products was: "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".

Ironic that I see a lot of Dodge Wranglers around town piloted by 16 year old chicks with thier doors taken off. Why? Wanna be CJ. If Dodge meant for the Wrangler to have removable doors you wouldn't need tools or after market mirrors. So who's imitating who?

Again, nothing against the Wrangler as a vehicle, but don't tread on Jeep history when it was bought and paid for. And by all means, don't dare come on to a forum and question my intelgence or wisdom based on the fact that I feel that the NAME jeep has lost it's soul.

We have a Jeep Liberty, no real complaints about it. I haven't had the chance to 4wheel it, but its real nice. Thought about getting one instead of my Impreza, just not comfortable in them.

2003 Forester is the best. :)