OK, here's my latest Subaru issue... My clutch petal has very inconsistant action. Sometimes I get the safe feel from the top of the motion to the floor, and other times the petal is very light until about 2" from the floor where it gets real heavy. I changed the fluid thinking that 110,000 miles may have broken it down http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif ... but the issue still remains. I'm hoping that it's something simple like a return spring and not something nice and expensive like a slave cylinder. Any ideas? Thanks!

Chuck
'98 RS

Finally! Someone else w/ the exact same problem! My car has the same problem when its hot outside on occasion. Started once last year and now again this summer at only 30k miles. And it happens so rarely that there's no way I could get it to happen for the mechanics at the dealer! Sucks that bleeding the system didn't fix it.

I thought the system was getting too hot or something, but the line doesn't seem to run close enough to anything to get that hot. I'm gonna try some high performance, high temp fluid and see if that helps.

First of all I am impressed that you got 110,000 miles out of your clutch. You must go easy on it. Second, it could be either but I tend to think the slave cylinder maybe the problem.

The clutch was replaced at around 85,000 miles, at which time they did not replace the fluid. I guess I'll have to go source a donor for a new slave cylinder. Doh!

I had/have that exact problem ('98 impreza 2.5RS) and its a bitch because it seems to do it randomly!! i tried bleeding the clutch without improvement. tried flushing the clutch fluid and replacing with a higher temp fluid. does it on hot days & cold, when the engine is hot or cold, regardless of how i shift, and you can't 'pump' the pedal back up!

this will be long so sit back. i've had the problem almost 2 years but the worthless dealer in wichita, KS wouldn't try anything to fix it or let me try to demo it to their technicians. It got worse over time and so did the dealership. finally drove about 1 hr to a dealer in salina, KS for the 30,000 mi service and to have them look at the problem - unable to reproduce. I must say the folks at Warta's Subaru are friendly, polite and professional and are recommended (for the benefit of folks in the area)

i had read somewhere that someone else had a similar problem which was traced to contamination in the master or slave cylinders but apparantly not in mine. i didn't see any unusual fluid movement (with the lid of the reservoir and a buddy pumping the pedal slowly) anyway

picked it up the next weekend and later in the day it did it again. luckily i was still in salina so was able to demo the problem to a tech. they told me go home because they have to call the regional rep for a recommendation.

as i shift into 5'th on the highway the pedal stayed on the floor so picked up the pedal with my toe after each shift and drove it back to the dealer. told them to keep it for a while and got a ride home from a friend. dealer said they could barely drive it into the shop. the throwout bearing was found to be dry and the fingers on the pressure plate were deformed so possibly that was causing the problem. subaru paid for a rental for 5 days which was decent. i also had them replace the clutch disk because they only charged me for parts. the wear on the disk was good but figured it was a smart thing to do ('penny wise pound foolish' type of thing)

picked it up last weekend and it felt great. bummer was that the rental car got a big stone chip in the windshield on the way back. anyway, the car still has the same problem but only a little bit so far. i'll give it another week or so and see what happens. maybe its just the new clutch breaking in.

if you find a solution let us know. i found a post about this problem before but have been unable to find it since.


[This message has been edited by FstrMnky (edited May 30, 2001).]

jd, did they replace your slave cylinder as well? if not, that should be their next step. for those of you out of warranty, it's directly under the torque chamber (black box attached to the throttle body), sitting on the transmission.

Al Gainey fixed a hot-weather idling only problem he had like this by changing to a high temp synthetic clutch fluid. You can probably find his post in the Technical Forum Archive, username ARG. Anyway, I don't think that's the problem fstrmnky and Chuck are having.

he he.

I'm having a weird problem with this on my 98 RS as well. It seems to be a cold problem for me though. After the car sits for over a day (which it does frequently, as it's not a daily driver). The first 50% or so of its pedal travel it where it's hanging up. My clutch has always disengaged very close to the floor, and functionally this aspect of it has never been a problem, just the initial spring assisted return. I've had a "little" luck lubing the pedal pivots with Teflon, but it's not permanent. The clutch functions wonderfully once the car has been driven for about 10 minutes or so, but last night the initial stick was worse than it's ever been.

I'm going to ask some of the powertrain guys here at work about it, and probably take it apart this weekend.

Ryan

I really don't have any issues switching gears... guessing where the friction point is going to be on each shift is getting a little old.

Bingo, that is exactly what is happening to my car too. The pedal will go limp for the top 2/3 of travel, it still engages and disengages ok, just at the floor. We replaced the slave, changed the fluids in the cylinder (moved up to DOT5) and it still happens. The dealer doesnt know what to do next. See this exact same thing happened last fall the week before nationals, I freaked and they replaced the clutch. The pressure plate was all chewed up and the problem was fixed, until about a month ago. So Im having a new clutch put in and this time I think it is the throwout bearing that has worn a groove (thanks Rallispec) in the shaft it moves along. The groove needs to be smoothed out (hopefully not replaced as this shaft apparently goes into the tranny and will cost big$ on top of the clutch. The drying out of the bearing could very well be the culprit in all of this. Ill post the findings later next week, with hopefully pictures of the shaft...if they will let me take them.

Eric

are you putting you foot all the way to the floor? or just until it engages...
i pretty sure you mean when it engages, otherwise your bein an ass to the clutch

Eric,
Was your problem consistant, or would it be fine with one clutching and be wierd on the next? I did a little test this morning. If I come to a stop and the clutch feels good, I can let the clutch in and out at that stop and it will work consistantly. If the clutch goes to the floor before disengaging, it is the same poor feel consistantly at that stop. How long did it work strangely before you brought it to get fixed?

It's about damn time somebody else had this problem. I had my clutch disk, pressure plate, and flywheel replaced under warranty at 14000 miles because the pressure plate was "collapsed". Exact same symptoms as you guys described. I'm sure my name is in some of the posts in the archives about this.
I had it really bad at the end of last summer, but I'm pretty sure that it was the fluid boiling. It was the worst at the end of a long hot day of autocrossing (over 100 degrees). The dealership blead the system and it's been fine ever since. It's started doing it again , but only a couple times. It goes away if I pump the pedal.
Good luck and let me know how it turns out.

There seems to be a trend appearing here - I've had my third clutch installed in the car today - after only 14,000 miles on it - the throwout bearing collapsed again - could anyone confirm whether the clutch assy for the RS is just a PoS and if there are any decent ones out there without going to a full sintered clutch and spending lots of $$$$'s - I'm heavy on my cars but not that heavy - my old RS Escort would take at least 40k to chew up a clutch.

regards

Jeff

OK... went to Wilton Subaru today after work and had a mechanic drive it for a while. I sat shotgun so we could discuss what was happening. He, as well as the 5 other mechanics that discussed it all come to the same conclusion. The master cylinder is the culprit. There's one on its way.... I'll let you all know what happend after it gets replaced.

There is a loss of pressure after each use, and the pedal will go dead after consistant use. But it will regain pressure if left alone for a bit. Tapping the pedal makes the pressure dissepate instead of grow. We'll see.

Thanks all!

OK... got the master cylinder replace and still have the stinkin' problem. :mad: For my next step, I'll be ordering an ACT clutch and a new clutch fork. It's gotta be something in there. I hope I figure it out before this gets REAL expensive.

Chuck, that's not good to hear. :(

I am also considering going with the ACT clutch if I can scrap the $$$ together. Along with the "light pedal" issue, I've also got the cold shudder problem. Overall I dislike the inaccurate feeling of the stock clutch....then again I have only been driving it for a month and probably haven't figured it out yet. :confused:

I'll be ordering an ACT in two weeks (to coincide with the ol' paycheck of course.) Bottle has them on sale for $355 in the vendor classifieds. It was about a week or so back, but it's in there.

See if you can buy just the pressure plate... everything else in the ACT Street kit is stock parts, and you can buy them cheaper from subaruparts.com, Troncalli Subaru, etc.

Just an update on the damn soft clutch pedal issue: my car is doing it again.... badly! today the pedal stayed on the floor after shifting and I had to lift it up with my toe.

The dealer had replaced the throwout bearing (dry) and pressure plate a few weeks ago on my car in an attempt to solve the problem. They also replaced the clutch at the same time. They did not replace the slave or master cylinders (even though i asked them to do so).

So, master and slave cylinders are now on order and will be in the car within the next few days.

I'm hoping the throwout bearing and deformed pressure plate were symptoms and not the root cause of the problem. Normally the fork is free to move around a little when in gear because the slave cylinder is not pushing on it when the pedal up/out. When the pedal was stuck on the floor (i.e.: didn't return back to the normal position) i noticed the slave cylinder was pushing hard on the fork. However, it was not pushing hard enough to cause the clutch to slip when flooring the gas in any gear. This makes me think either the slave or master is to ‘sticking’ somehow and not returning fully when the pedal is released. This could cause long term wear on the throwout bearing and pressure plate. Maybe? I’ve never taken a subaru apart so don’t know too much about them.

Anyone have any more input on this problem?

FstrMnky

Hmm.. sticking slave... there might be something to that. Perhaps I should order one of those as well. How much did they soak you for that part?

Chuck, i think the problem on my car is the master cylinder and not the slave cylinder. to answer your question: the master cylinder was about $135 and slave was about $80.

new master cylinder is in so will let you know in a few days: no news being good news.

[ June 14, 2001: Message edited by: FstrMnky ]

FstrMnky - I think Chuck already replaced the master cylinder (see above). In this thread (http://www.i-club.com/cgi-bin/ubb6/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=24&t=003237) aRSe says it is probably the release bearing. I dunno. :confused:

beethoven:

the release bearing (aka: throwout bearing) and pressure plate had both already been replaced (see above) on my car which didn't solve the problem. based on what i found on my car it looks to be the master cylinder. don't know about chuck's or anyone else since i haven't seen their cars.

so far the problem has not reappeared - hurray! now i just need to figure out the jetting on my shifter kart and all will be right in my little world ;-)

Hi Folks

I posted some time ago about this topic, but didn't get alot of response. So I've been following this thread with interest.

I've got my local dealer on the trail; of course SOC doesn't acknowledge any problem!!

I can't believe that a car manufacturer in this day 'n age can't build a proper clutch!!
:confused:

Yep.. did the master already with no luck. I'll be ordering all sorts of crazy parts on friday to try and remedy this damned thing. I'll letcha all know!

Chuck....I was doing some searching through the forums, and several people have suggested that this problem can be fixed by flushing the clutch fluid (which is dot 3 or 4 break fluid). Someone else did suggest that the slave could be the culprit also....

I had flushed my original clutch fluid and replaced with a much higher temp synthetic DOT4 fluid last summer to no avail. I suspect if flushing or bleeding was the issue Chuck would have already noticed but it doesn't cost much to try it so might as well.

If you fluid is black then I bet that master cylinder is the problem. The clutch fluid should be close to the original color – mine was usually black. there was black 'sludge' in my master cylinder reservoir so maybe contamination or a bad master cylinder was the original problem from the factory. That is why I flushed the new one before installing. Chuck, maybe you should look at your clutch fluid, pull your master cylinder and check it out. Maybe pull your master cylinder apart and look for something odd (bad seals, gunk on the cylinder walls – that was the problem with my kart brakes). Could be your replacement master cylinder was also bad – I noticed my new one felt oily on the inside and smelt strange. Similarly with the slave cylinder. Maybe this weekend I’ll pull my master cylinder apart – doubt the dealer will give me any money for replacing that defective part even though still under warranty.

Good luck

FstrMnky

Heh.. changing the fluid was the first thing I tried. And the fluid was very dark and had little bits of something in it. I doubt that the replacement master is still the culprit, simply because it's the EXACT safe feel before and after the surgery. I'm going to order the slave today and hope that fixes the problem.

Chuck:

i bought a new slave cylinder when I bought my master cylinder. At the moment it looks like it won't be needed. the dealer will charge me 30% restocking fee (it was $80 or $81) so if you want i can sell it to you for the same price i bought it for (plus shipping to you). I still have the receipt somewhere around that i could send you a copy of to prove its new.

hopefully the slave cylinder will solve the problem. one worry would be that your new master cylinder had the same problem as the original one – don’t laugh, it could happen. my new master cylinder looked a little suspicious initially and sometimes a ‘new’ part could have been build months or even years before so could have the same defect. Did your problem reappear right after you replaced it or some time afterwards (like weeks)? If the problem came back right away then it is probably the slave as you said. If the problem came back after a few days/weeks then I would take the master cylinder apart and have a look at that at the same time as replacing the slave. Of course, we could both be barking up the wrong tree and it could be one of the soft lines (don’t remember if it has any though) between the two cylinders

have a good weekend.

It's been awhile since anyone has posted on this subject and I'm wondering first of all if either Chuck or FstrMnky resolved their clutch problems?

Had my car into the dealer the other day for its 48000km service and, because I'd been bugging them about my clutch woes, they had on hand an "experimental" slave cylinder from SOC, which they installed.

On the half hour drive home, everything behaved perfectly (consistent pedal feel, same engagement point each time). AND the car was shifting better than it ever did, even when new! First to second shift has always been a bit of a bear in my car; I usually have to pause momentarily in neutral before completing the shift, otherwise it just doesn't want to go in, especially at higher revs. Now it was shifting absolutely smoothly and WAY quicker!

All good things come to an end of course! Next day the pedal feel started to vary again and when it does the shifting suffers. However I'm convinced (at this point anyway) that the slave cylinder is the culprit. Now all Subaru has to do is make one that works properly 100% of the time, not just 50%!:rolleyes:

OK... I replaced my slave as well and it worked great for about 8 shifts, then the petal got stuck to the floor with just about every shift after that. So... with my left foot doing a lot of pushing and lifting, I went to autozone and picked up a can of spray lithium grease. I pulled off the clutch fork boot (which was completely dry rotted) and sprayed a ton of grease in there. After 2 days of working the grease in, the petal doesn't stick anymore and clutch feel is a bit better. I'm going to give it another application tonight to see if more grease will yield even better results.

If all this occurs from lack of lubrication, and Subaru doesn't know about it, I'm gunna be one pissed Subarubian.

Ah ha!

So could this problem be related to the "squeaky" clutch issue also? Bascially, when I have the pedal out all of the way (foot off of pedal) there is a squeak coming from the clutch. It gets a little louder during the first 1" of travel but goes away when the clutch is pushed in all of the way. From my searches, I have found that this comes from a dry clutch fork and boot, and the fix is simply greasing up the fork to make the squeak disappear.

Well, are people with this dead clutch pedal problem also seeing the squeaking clutch problem???

Chuck, did your clutch squeak when you were idiling with the clutch out?

Edit: I found this thread (http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29457) with info on the squeaky clutch. I see Chuck was seeing this problem at one point!

Well....at least both of these problems might have a simple fix. (fingers crossed)

I think beethoven is exactly right. The more and more the grease works in, the better the feel and the less squeaking. If someone else with similar clutch feel and squeakiness can try and lube the fork pivot and post findings here, that would be great!!!

Interesting... I recently noticed that I have squeaking clutch just like beethoven describes. I'll have to pick up some spray lithium grease and give that a shot, too. Anybody have a pic of what I should be spraying?

..or I'll just spraying everything that moves with the clutch. :D

--Chris

Ouch, after reading all these threads, I am getting pretty concern on MY98 RS too. So far I do not notice any strange happening to my clutch (22k miles), but I guess I should look into it when I have the chance. Will you guys suggest that I change my clutch before something goes wrong (or maybe the throwout bearing)...or wait? Probably need to save up some extra cash now...sigh :(

-Alan

follow the clutch fork down from where it touches the slave cylinder. there's a rubber boot there... mine was all dry rotted, so I yanked it off. everywhere behind the boot is where you wanna spray the grease. I sprayed a butt-load in there in hopes that it would travel down to where it should be. It'll take a few days to fully work in, but give it a shot!

Hey Chuck, is the grease still working for you?

Ok folks, I have a 99 RS and my clutch pedal became very, very light while driving in stop and go traffic on a hot day. If I let the car cool off, the clutch magically came back full force. Very odd!

The only thing I could think of was that the clutch fluid was getting too hot and losing it's hydraulic properties.

I went to PepBoys and bought some Valvoline synthetic brake fluid. I flushed the clutch master and slave and then put in the synthetic fluid. I haven't had the problem since!!!

Even on the hottest day, the clutch pedal stays stiff.

So go change your fluid........

ARG

Also, I was the first guy to find a fix for the squeaky clutch fork. I used motorcycle chain lube instead of lithium grease. The reason being that the chain lube comes out as a liquid and then becomes a grease after the solvents evaporate. The liquid runs down the fork to the release bearing and then becomes a grease.

Try it, you will like it:D

Cheers!

ARG

hi, sorry to bring this topic back up again =0

but my friend is having a similiar problem, i was hoping somebody could gimme a little bit more detail in LUBING this part, i havnt worked on a subie before, and its for a friend, so any help would be appreciated, thanks! =)

hi all, I have the answer to all your clutch problems. THE RUBBER CLUTCH LINE, REPLACE IT! I had the same problem as most people here and it's kinda strange that it would all happen at the same time. What is happening is that the ruber clutch line is failing on the inside due to heat build-up rising from the motor. You will not see any evidence of failure on the outside, but it is on the inside of the hose. Some dealerships are aware of this problem for the 98-99's, and they have upgraded lines now, but I would suggest getting a SS clutch line from Z-1. Downside, costs just a little bit more. Upside, never a clutch failure again:D

PS- everywhere behind the boot is where you wanna spray the grease
for those just shooting grease into the clutch fork, That is NOT a good idea, the reason being is that if you don't spray the right area, you will end up getting grease on your clutch disk (READ-CLUTCH SLIPPAGE!) I agree it is the throwout bearing that needs lubing at times, but know EXACTLY where to apply it. not just spay and pray. Good luck all:D

I guess everyone got it fixed.

Can anyone confirm if TaiChih's fix did in fact fix the issue?

and was this isolated to only the MY98's and MY99's?

Can anyone confirm if TaiChih's fix did in fact fix the issue?


My car's a 98 RS and I replaced the clutch line with Z1's SS line. No change. :(

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=286297

Hey Superstring,

You have problems too? ;) My clutch is been pretty good lately, but still without warning, it will go mushy and light on me once in a while. I was this --><-- close to ordering a braided SS line from Z1 recently to give that a try but If it didn't do anything for you, I'm sure I'll have similar results. Seems like we are definatly experiencing the same problems. I really think the problem with our cars lies in the snout or nose piece of the transmission. I believe we have traded emails about this before and about the company that offeres a sleve and larger diameter T/O bearing. To me that sounds like it could be a promissing fix. I just don't have the time and money to have the trans taken apart again to give this a try.

If anyone else has any input on this topic PLEASE add your 2 cents!

Cheers,
Chad

Hi Chad

I'm still going to approach my dealer about having Subaru pay for installing the PDM snout. Even though my car's out of warranty now, I've been having this problem for about 3 years!! (as I'm sure I told you before).

I can't remember if you have any shudder problems? I do, and I think this definitely adds weight to my case with Subaru (maybe :rolleyes: ).

BTW I was talking to "Craig W" awhile back and the last I heard, he had solved his problem with a new slave cylinder. Craig, if your there, maybe you could update us :) .

John

OK, different model, but similar problem.
1998 2.5GT Legacy 5MT.
Lightweight flywheel and ACT street clutch.
ACT clutch engages near the floor when all is working, problem is it can get to the point of not disengaging at times. Usually when it is warm out and the car is warmed up.
I had tried a fluid change as an attempt to fix the problem.
I also just did a trans swap. While it was apart, I greased the fork pivots and checked the trans snout for burrs/ridges.
Same problem, 2 different trans, forks and throwout bearings. I was wondering about shimming the pivot ball out a bit to give a little higher pedal when working correctly, also gives a margin for when it is not. Pain to do though.
May also do a SS clutch line (same for a Leg as an RS?)
Just curious and a bit fed up.

ACT clutch engages near the floor when all is working, problem is it can get to the point of not disengaging at times.

Charlie, do I understand this correctly....sometimes your clutch won't disengage??? Can you select first? Can you still change gears? :confused:

John

I'm really surprised at how common this problem is. I would never have thought that someone else had the EXACT same issue.....

I think I'm going to go the Slave Cylinder/Clutch Line replacement route.

2yLiTe

I don't know if you've seen this thread; if not, check it out. :)

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=307773&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

superstring: When things work OK, I can completely disengage the clutch and shift to any gear when stopped.
BUT, at times the clutch hydraulics act like they have air in them and the usefull pedal travel drops such that I cannot fully disengage the clutch.
This past weekend I tried (again) the following.
Relube all pivots around the clutch pedal.
Relube the slave pin to fork pocket.
Adjust the master cylinder pin ~1/3 of a turn longer.
Rebleed the lines.
It seems better, but it was hit or miss before. If it acted up, it could be that way for a day or just a push or 2. If it was air, I would guess it would always be that way or always that way when hot, etc. Unfortunatly it is inconsistant.
I am trying to source a SS line to replace the 5yr old rubber line.

Sounds like it could very likely be the slave cylinder, Charlie. Has that ever been changed? Like I said before, I installed a SS line from Z1 Performance.......no change in the clutch action, but it does look nice ;)

I had this issue with my 99 RS at around 40k miles - turned out the slave was bad, replaced it under warranty, all was better again, and never a problem since.

The braided clutch line we sell is simple a reliability mod (it will not burst or tear like the stock rubber line can over time), and gives slightly better fedback to the friction point. Clutch fluid isn;t really anything that goes "bad" unless there is a compromise in the system (a leak, etc.)...same as brake fluid, so any good DOT4 fluid will work great, just make sure you fully flush out the system frst though!)

As for the BD/BG Legacy, the clutch lines will not work, as we have a vastly different master than an RS.

Our WRX line works great on the older Legacy Turbos (BC/BF)..no clue on the newer ones, as we don't have any customers with them.

Adam

Originally posted by superstring
Sounds like it could very likely be the slave cylinder, Charlie. Has that ever been changed? Like I said before, I installed a SS line from Z1 Performance.......no change in the clutch action, but it does look nice ;)
No it has not, I want to see if there is a rebuild kit (probably not) and also do the SS line.
I will update though. I can say that it has seemed better since doing all the other things this past weekend, but can't say it is fixed.

Adam (Z1), like I asked before, is there ANY SS line that will work for me? You have a similar MY as I do IIRC. I would think you would be checking this out.:D

Bumping an old thread, but something similar seems to have just happened to me today. I've got 75K on my 03 and while on the road today in rather hot weather the clutch just went to mush. The more i think about it i can see it being a line failure. Anyone else solved this problem with a new clutch line?

One day I started to feel very inconsistent clutch pedal feedback, too. I did some looking around and found it to be the spring just above your toe. Stick your head up there and take a look and see. It was lodged incorrectly. All I had to do was get it back into place and the pedal feel was back to normal. Never had the problem again. Not sure how it came to be in the first place. But meh... it's fixed so I'm not complaining anymore! haha

Same issue...

Clutch goes soft in hot weather or driving for a while..

98 RS 180,000 miles