This from the Evolution discussion list. I have no negative agenda towards Rota. In fact, I run the Subzeros in autox currently. Just posting this for informational purposes. I'll post updates as I get them. Hopefully Rota will deal with this in a professional manner...

> > Today we had a Subaru with Rota (brand) Attack (model) wheels shear the rim away from the hub. All five spokes showed oxidation at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the way through from the inside. I checked the other wheels and found a fine crack on the inside of two spokes on one other wheel with my thumbnail. There is ALMOST NO VISIBLE crack. The crack is masked by the powder coating. One other Rota wheel has a raised line on the rear of the spoke that is discernable by thumbnail only. I'd advise anyone using these wheels to check them for cracks on the inside of the spoke about 1.5 to 2 inches out from the hub.

The wheel went off course over 100 feet, hit a curb and ended up over 10 feet off the ground in a tree. Wheel sheared in a 180 deg sweeper, typical Roger Johnson Nationals course.

James Rogerson
[FP #125] - Tekless Racing
jrogerson@houston.rr.com

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Wow, that's pretty dramatic!! Does anyone know this owner? Is he/she an i-clubber. I'd be interested to know what lead to this and if other Rota wheels (Sub-Zeros, in my case) are suseptible (sp?) to this.

Mine have been thru a couple track days and some pretty aggresive driving. I'd HATE :mad: to loose a wheel mid-turn somewhere.

mike

surprisingly enough i know of a local that has now cracked a spoke on his 17" attacks. something tells me ROTA might be in for a recall.

jeremy

Either Rotas are ***** wheels, or they had a bunch of very bad runs. I personally have seen 2 people break sub zeros, and there are numerous reports of broken SubZeros on this board.
I look at it this way, 4 18x7.5 wheels for 600 shipped with a polished lip?
Think about it, WHY and HOW can they be so cheap? Because you get what you pay for.
I wouldnt really want to put Rotas on my car for daily driving, but I would NEVER EVER trust them to the forces a wheel sees in a racing situation.
Rota claims there have been only 4 failures, B.S. I myself have seen 2 and a few other VERY trustworthy sources have seen it happen as well. They just are not a quality wheel.IMHO.
Yeah there are a ton of ppl running them with no problems and Gary Sheehan runs them on his race car, but do you want to run the risk of all the damage that can occor when the hub sheers out in a high speed turn?
It sucks, because I was all ready to buy a set of SubZeros for my car, but after a little research, forget it.

Simple formula.


Cast wheel + lightweight = not as strong

They are great wheels for what you pay.

But to get such a lightweight wheel and such a low cost the aluminum itself cant be anywhere near as strong.Its just common sense.(for anyone who knows how wheels are made) :p

Originally posted by jetfan8178
Simple formula.


Cast wheel + lightweight = not as strong

They are great wheels for what you pay.

But to get such a lightweight wheel and such a low cost the aluminum itself cant be anywhere near as strong.Its just common sense.(for anyone who knows how wheels are made) :p exactly

Rota makes great wheels period. I have seen BBS wheels crack and blow chunks, where the Rotas only get dented. Subzeros had a bad batch a while ago, but that was fixed. Bad batches can and do happen, but the ones that are not defective have proven to stand up to the worst abuse out there. Also, anyone I have heard from who had broken a wheel, it was replaced with no questions asked. the guy with BBS wheels probably wont be so lucky.

I was telling my buddy (a car enthusiast) about the Rota attack rims I wanted to buy. Before I finnished my sentence he said, "Ohhhh, I wouldn't buy those. They break alot.".

It's just that they look soooooo good and are soooo in-expensive. Damn the temptation.

I was there when it happened (not really, I was busy eating Whataburger) but I came back from lunch at the center hub was blown out the middle of an Attack. Cracks were found in two of the other three wheels. I'll let the owner of the wheels answer. And, yes he's on NASIOC.

ive read of a few sub zero problems, and in each case, Rota has handled the problem in an orderly fashion.
The formula is correct. You get what you pay for, and i paid for some SDR's. When i start to auto cross this year, i am just gonna run the stockers on the RE92's (just for fun)
Rotas are a great bang for the buck, and i am happy i still have my SDR's

Originally posted by Davenow
It sucks, because I was all ready to buy a set of SubZeros for my car, but after a little research, forget it.
So what wheels are you going to buy? SonicYellowWRX just told us that he has seen BBS rims break, and if I remember correctly, Gary Sheehan broke two Advans. If some of the most expensive wheels can break, what choices do you have? Maybe you'll find something that hardly anybody else has, so that you can be the first to break them. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I don't like to hear about broken Rotas, I have Subzeros myself, but it bothers me how people start crying bloody murder when one in 100,000 Rotas breaks (I made up this number to get a point across ;) ), when there's absolutely no indication that they fail more frequently than other brands.

Originally posted by TheWRX


but it bothers me how people start crying bloody murder when one in 100,000 Rotas breaks (I made up this number to get a point across ;) ), when there's absolutely no indication that they fail more frequently than other brands.


It just gets amplified because of how many Rotas are sold thru this and other boards.But The over production in such a short time could be the reason that bad batches are out there.

Poop happens.Its just amplified when 20000 people can go to 1 place and talk about it.

I think for the money they are a great bargain,.

But I have different wheel for racing so...

Oh, BTW...

I had a set of attacks on my RS and smacked a curb once with the tire about 20-30mph pulling into a parking lot from the highway.

Rear wheel and tire first.

No dent, not bend, no crack.

Lust a small nick in the wheel where the rim protecter on the tire didn't do its job.

Not bad for a $150 wheel. ;)

As promised, here's an update from the email list...

Today I checked 5 sets of Rota wheels, none of them the Attack model, and
found no imperfections. So that is good news. Several people have asked
for pictures, when I get them sent to me I'll post them on the board. We
had 275 entrants today and we checked all the after market wheels closely
without any signs of wheel spoke failure.

I asked the owner of the wheel that broke today what the usage of the
wheels had been. He said they were AX only mounted with Kuhmo Victor Racers.

We plan to keep a watchful eye out for that model and brand. But can't
make a determination other than we had an isolated failure.

Originally posted by TheWRX

So what wheels are you going to buy? SonicYellowWRX just told us that he has seen BBS rims break, and if I remember correctly, Gary Sheehan broke two Advans. If some of the most expensive wheels can break, what choices do you have? Maybe you'll find something that hardly anybody else has, so that you can be the first to break them. :rolleyes:

Seriously, I don't like to hear about broken Rotas, I have Subzeros myself, but it bothers me how people start crying bloody murder when one in 100,000 Rotas breaks (I made up this number to get a point across ;) ), when there's absolutely no indication that they fail more frequently than other brands.

correction, I've seen TWO BBS wheels break, back to back. there are pictures on this site if you are interested. it was at a willow springs track event and these were the guys track only wheels. the best wheels are supposed to be VOLK/RAYS, but there are many that have been damaged as well. Prodrive P1's are strong, but my friend ran over a pipe on the road and bent those. so I guess the stockers are the only choice then... I dont hear of any stock wheels breaking. :alien: i know people with VOLK wheels who will never take it on the track for fear of damaging them. so would you rather have a cheap wheel you can beat on and not care if it breaks or an expensive one you are afraid of damaging?

people on this board take everything said to heart. no one will run an intake because shiv says no. everyone is afraid of their tranny breaking and is ready to sue because people go here to post about it. and when a few rota's break, we are the first and only to hear about it.

hmmm I don't like the fact this happening at all.

Pretty much will make me steer clear of Rotas...

Unless Rota gets proactive about this, shows interest in the failures, and does something about it if needed, I would not feel safe hoping that I would not encounter any problems.

I would think Gary Sheehan would have had problems before any one else given the extremes their car go's through. I wonder if
they ever had any issues?

Was the above posts failure just some manufactoring fluke?

Still not a single problem with our Rota Subzeros. We have two sets of the early 45mm batches and two sets of the later 48mm offset hubcentrics.

For the record, we only bent the Advans. We have yet to have any wheel fail.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com

Originally posted by GarySheehan
Still not a single problem with our Rota Subzeros. We have two sets of the early 45mm batches and two sets of the later 48mm offset hubcentrics.

For the record, we only bent the Advans. We have yet to have any wheel fail.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com good info gary :) do you run R compounds on all the wheels?? i am just curious if it was the added stress due to the high traction of the Victo Racers.

jeremy

Originally posted by SonicYellowWRX
Rota makes great wheels period. I have seen BBS wheels crack and blow chunks, where the Rotas only get dented.
Yep, the guy that broke his BBS's broke them on the same corner at willow springs (that track seriously needs to be repaved) that i dented on of my subzeros. I think we were also doing about the same speed 80-90 and we both have silver wagons, and i think he was on SO-3s. Hopefuly im getting a digital camera soon (maybe tomorrow :D) The dent for some reason was on the inside of my rim and not on the "face" of the rim. I PM'ed Rota about my rim and they havent got back to me. The greatest thing about rotas is that if they get damaged, you wont have to sell your first born to replace your rims. The funniest thing about them is when people as me if theyre real, when they find out that theyre fake, thats when they start talking crap. Most people wouldnt know that theyre fakes unless i told them.:lol:

Here's my input (as if anyone cares!! :) )....

I have had a DP Motorsport rim (DP 5) shear 3 spokes out of five on my E30 M3. I have also trashed many 2 piece DSM wheels wheels by bending the roll formed lips.

Further, someone (sonicyellow I think) stated that we should stay with stockers... well, guess what, Rota manufactures factory wheels for many car manufactures. And as for manufacturing, Jetfan was right, cast aluminum is much weaker than extruded or forged, unfortunately, most all factory wheels are low pressure die-cast here in the states as opposed to the high pressure set up used abroad.

I am curious however... I used to work for a wheel manufacturer (Central Light Alloy - maker for DSM and Toyota) and we x-rayed ALL wheels for porosity (which will definitely cause a fracture) as well as testing for hardness & stress and checking alloy content by spectrometer. I find it hard to believe that a "bad" batch can creep out unless quality control is down, or of course if they are submitted to harsh conditions which they were never expected to endure.

On that note, I will give these tidbits and shut up: I have seen MANY Crager aluminum wheels shear spokes off - usually the five spoke variety (my DP5 were 5 spoke too). These wheels are of the "drag" style and are intended for such racing in a straight line... not for the side loading of day to day driving. Which makes me wonder.... Rota is a factory cast house whose wheels are intended for day to day driving - not 130 mph sweeps. Maybe there is some misapplication here. Sure many do well at the track... but many WRXs do pretty well at the strip though they are made for rally. The way I look at it, its the chance you take for the value.

As for the 5-spoke comment... for anyone who is worried and wants rotas (like me :) ) go for the SDR or the Tarmacs... minimal weight gain and MORE SPOKES to keep it all together. At the very least, if there is a problem, you will see it before all 10 give out!!!! lol

Sorry for the long winded.... but thought it would help. I personally think the percentages of failures to # on the road stats look pretty good.

Cheer!

B-Kerr

last i checked Enkei made about 90% of the factory wheels out there including Subaru :rolleyes:

I wouldn't think it was that much... maybe the aluminum wheels only. CLA's sister company, Central Manufacturing Company makes a lot of steel wheels. Plus, Kelsey Hayse & Hayse Lemur both manufacture wheels too... as does Rota, Asai, Topie, & Alumnitech. Enkie's Indiana plant does manufacture a lot of wheels, but I do know they make several after market wheels as well. Plus, there is another foundry up in northern Indiana on I-69 as well, but I can't remember the name off hand.

Oh well, may be 90%... I can't say for sure.

Just my $0.02

B-Kerr

i meant to say 90% of alloys

I have a feeling this may be a matter of percentages.
If rims have a .5% chance of failure (made up number) and you only sell 1000 (like BBS) then stories of failure will be nearly unheard of. If you sell 10000 (like rota), then ten failures suddenly sounds like a lot.

I'm one of the 4 'reported' failures with the Sub-Zeros. It happened at day one of a two day NE DIV auto-x event, on the 3rd (last) run of the day.

I co-drove someone elses car (3rd place nationals in STS this year) and that Monday I had Rota on the phone. Wednesday, I had a new set of attacks on my doorstep to be mounted so Thursday I could leave to go to the Peru Pro (600 miles away).

They took VERY good care of me. Now I have the attacks... they have thicker spines... and I feel they'll do well. I'm not running R-Compound, but am running Azenis (225/45-17).

I'll be keeping an eye on the rims, but I feel 100% confident that they'll be fine. Crap happens in motorsports. You just hope it doesn't happen to you. :)

--kC

Originally posted by AUTOwrXER
I asked the owner of the wheel that broke today what the usage of the wheels had been. He said they were AX only mounted with Kuhmo Victor Racers.

OK now it gets confusing... from the horses mouth on another list...

hehe, I saw this happen, from the drivers seat :(

These wheels were my daily drivers with my daily driven tires on them. OK now... which is it? Does he daily drive on Victoracers???

I love teh interweb where no one can get a story straight. :rolleyes:

Well, I think the important thing to note here is that the failures all occurred under what can only be described as "unusually stressful" conditions - ie road racing or autoxing. As B-Kerr said, $150 wheels might not be the best choice for these applications. I have a set of Attacks that I plan on using for the street - but for track days and autoxing, I'll be using a set of 2000 16" stockers. Since NONE of these failures have occurred on the street, and many have occurred with super sticky tires, I'm not in the least bit concerned for day to day driving.

Basil

Originally posted by AUTOwrXER

I asked the owner of the wheel that broke today what the usage of the
wheels had been. He said they were AX only mounted with Kuhmo Victor Racers.


That doesn't sound right. I know where the wheels and tires came from on that car. The wheels were purchased from Rev. Mtrsprts late last summer and my old 225/45-17 Azenis were mounted on them. That combination was then sold to the owner of the car (another friend of mine) who had the failure on Saturday.

The tires were VERY worn but nowhere near cording yet. They were daily driven, not just AutoX specific. They should have had good grip, but Gulf Greyhound park is asphalt, and in the cold should have been a bit slippery. Only problems are that the asphalt is bad in some places and since the lot is setup for drainage there's quite a bit of undulation which would add/reduce loads when cornering depending on course layout.

bs

autocrossing, even on the stickiest race tire you can find isnt stressfull for a wheel marketed for its lightweight properties, which is something that primarily competitive racers will be interested in.

rota has had a HUGE nunmber of failures on this subaru forum alone.

they need to get thier QC together FAST, or explain what the hell is the problem.

are all these failures from an early batch?

can they provide us some documentation to prove this?


Originally posted by Basil
Well, I think the important thing to note here is that the failures all occurred under what can only be described as "unusually stressful" conditions - ie road racing or autoxing. As B-Kerr said, $150 wheels might not be the best choice for these applications. I have a set of Attacks that I plan on using for the street - but for track days and autoxing, I'll be using a set of 2000 16" stockers. Since NONE of these failures have occurred on the street, and many have occurred with super sticky tires, I'm not in the least bit concerned for day to day driving.

Basil

The person with the fractured Attacks in question was joking about the manufacturing process. He wondered if they were using a stick or the heel of a boot to cram slag into the mold.

Anyone who races or auto-x is an idiot if he (not that I am pointing fingers at this person, whoever it turns out to be was the actual driver :) ) does not check his car INCLUDING tires AND wheels before each event. This is a no brainer.

For an example - Jerry Hartman was climbing the Pagoda Peak in Reading PA a few years ago and had his class won. He decided to try and break his record on the second day. He didn't check his tires ( left front had belts showing from a hard previous days running up the twisties) and took off. About 2/3 the way up the hill, he drop into a hard right. LF tire lost traction and he smacked a guardrail ending the season for he and his car - just because he failed to check his car properly. Heck... I autocrossed one day in my M3 and showed belts all around both rears in the center of my Pirellis. Not to mention, Doug Derby killed two sets of perf retreds on his front wheel talon the same day (of course he was running 25psi boost on a T-20 and throwing a cloud of rubber dust when leaving every corner!! :lol: First time we saw it we thought it was smoke and he had lost an engine!)

My point here is that maintenance and inspection should have caught many of these before a sube ended up on its hub! Take care of your car, how can you beat up on Honda's and Neons if you only have three wheels!!!

B-Kerr

b-kerr not to be a PITA but a stress fracture can happen so quickly that in a 50 second course it goes from 1/8" to cracked entirely. I do check my wheels and tires before and after each race but saying that a person is an idiot for trusting the company that built the wheels is kind of an ignorant statement because in that case you should pull your wheels and tires off every time you drive your car, regardless if it's Auto-x or not. i've seen pot holes put some much more intense yawing forces on a wheel/tire then a car that's racing. I'm not disagreeing with you, i just disagree with your comment about it being complete and total owner error.

jeremy

Two things:

1) Another person on the Evo list verified that these wheels were driven on the road as daily drivers. To me, that indicates that he probably had Azenis mounted, though the Kuhmo/Falken issue still seems to be in the air. If the Azenis were well worn, I can see how there could be confusion.

2) I understand that Rota has contacted this individual and is currently working to resolve the situation. It's refreshing to see a manufacturer with this level of dedication to customer service.

Joel

Originally posted by Basil
Well, I think the important thing to note here is that the failures all occurred under what can only be described as "unusually stressful" conditions - ie road racing or autoxing. As B-Kerr said, $150 wheels might not be the best choice for these applications. I have a set of Attacks that I plan on using for the street - but for track days and autoxing, I'll be using a set of 2000 16" stockers. Since NONE of these failures have occurred on the street, and many have occurred with super sticky tires, I'm not in the least bit concerned for day to day driving.

Basil

I disagree with this position entirely. While it would be easy for a manufacturer to take this position in defense, it is totally without merit. Road courses and autocross sites are specifiacally chosen (or designed) to minimize hazards such as potholes, bumps, etc. The force exerted on a wheel that is under the full load of the tire (even a race tire) is fractional compared to the load the wheel sees while crashing over railroad tracks, seems in the highway, or banging over potholes. That is the reason why many autocrossers in the prepared classes run extremely light wheels that would never stand up to street duty.

The way Rota is handling this event as well as the others(small in number compared to the number of Rotas sold) in the past should shut the cry babies up. Look up old posts and read about their professionalism and quick resolution of problems.

Originally posted by jmott
rota has had a HUGE nunmber of failures on this subaru forum alone.


jmott, what do you consider a huge number? I surf this BBS pretty religiously and I can only remember seeing 3-4 people reporting any problems with their Rotas. Heck I personally know 2 people that have damaged P1s, one of the strongest wheels out there, and I would be willing to bet there are more sets of Rotas being used than sets of P1s.

I agree that Rota should take care of this situation (and I have NO doubts that they will). However, I think your statement that there are a "HUGE number of failures" is a little overstated.

- Trent (thinks maybe people are expecting too much from a $500 set of wheels)

Originally posted by AUTOwrXER
Two things:

1) Another person on the Evo list verified that these wheels were driven on the road as daily drivers. To me, that indicates that he probably had Azenis mounted, though the Kuhmo/Falken issue still seems to be in the air. If the Azenis were well worn, I can see how there could be confusion.


Joel

They Azenis were almost slicks. I know because they were once mine. Maybe you missed that earlier?;)

Rota has talked to the owner and has even contacted me. Yet another reason I'm happy with running my SubZeros at every event. They get regular visual inspections, but I have not investigated them further and I know Rota stands behind their product.

the wheel broke exactly like this (http://www.pbase.com/p7r4e7y/inbox)

Originally posted by p7r4e7y
the wheel broke exactly like this (http://www.pbase.com/p7r4e7y/inbox)

:eek:

Originally posted by djerickd


:eek:

That's exactly what I was doing when I came back from Whataburger and was shown that.

The wheels were daily driven with Falken Azenis. Everything Orion has posted about the history of the wheels / tires is true.

I have talked with Cosmic and Rota. They have so far handled the situation very admirably with what I would consider excellent customer service. I will run Rotas in the future. I will however be thoroughly inspecting any wheels I run on a very regular basis from now on.

Rota tells me "you are only the 5th person that claimed due to a wheel failure contrary to what people on the net are saying", this doesn't seem like a very large percentage to me.

Later,
Dustin

It aint cheap, but many racers have their alloys dye tested on a regular basis, which can detect cracks that are invisible to the naked eye. You can send things out to be tested or buy a kit with the UV dyes and lights to do it yourself.

http://www.magnaflux-online.com/products/overview.html

Originally posted by SonicYellowWRX


the best wheels are supposed to be VOLK/RAYS, but there are many that have been damaged as well.

You state this offhandedly as fact. Can you provide image links to, say, two or three broken volk wheels?

Hmm. I remember an article in GRM describing Revolution rims failing in EXACTLY the same way.

Note to self: Do not go through with that plan to buy some light/inexpensive cast Rota wheels for auto-x.

Guess I'll stay with my heavy-ass 17 lb Mims for another season...

Originally posted by p7r4e7y
the wheel broke exactly like this (http://www.pbase.com/p7r4e7y/inbox) :eek: :eek:

ok....a little more data since Dustin hasn't shown up to fill in the blanks.....the rotas had Azenis mounted on them (225/45/17s). these wheels were purhased off of another car that did experience a pretty rough off course excursion at Texas World Speedway (road course)which might have initially created the stress cracks but were not readily visable. There was also at least $500 in body damage to the car at the auto-x when the wheel failed...maybe be more.

I'm a little more concerned about Rotas now...my Team Dynamics may be 4 lbs heavier per wheel but I've never heard of one breaking!

Wm

And to add this, Dustin has "mad" dog dodging "skillz". He has used up the Karma from this event, as this happened in a controlled enviroment, and not next to me on I-10 going to Louisiana:)

Originally posted by Tex-WReX
And to add this, Dustin has "mad" dog dodging "skillz". He has used up the Karma from this event, as this happened in a controlled enviroment, and not next to me on I-10 going to Louisiana:)

That this happened on the autocross course is one thing I'm VERY thankful of. If it had happened on a public road or freeway the consequences could have been far worse.

Later,
Dustin
^no longer has any good karma

I'm not saying that you should not trust the manufacturer of your wheels.... just that everyone should check their vehicle - especially before you race! At a race/solo event, you PLAN on being rough on your car; probably driving it much harder than on a normal day of commuting (well, maybe some of us commute on a totally different level than the 40 y.o. women in mini-vans!! ).

I personally check wheels and everything else every time I change my oil which is every 2500 plus before I do any racing. I have experienced cracked and bent rims and find an ounce of prevention to be worth 3400# of crash! Yes, being an engineer, I know that crack propogation can be lightening quick (try welding aluminum plate with 4043 wire for welding extrusions - it'll pop like a cannon!), but finding that 1/8" crack in advance would be nice. I won't say you'll find it everytime, but one is more likely to prevent the accident if they look for possible causes in advance. BTW, you not being a PITA, just making your point! :)

B-Kerr

(still voting thumbs up for ROTA)

you also have to factor in the extra loads that are placed on big dia. wheels....remember fulcrum and arm....

and sticky tires, hard cornering....

i bet rota could evan decline there claim, becuase he was in a racing situtation...and these wheels were not designed for racing...per se

I was #1 to have a Rota Subzero break (or so I was told). The hub completely disconnected from the rest of the wheel. It happened at a Homestead-Miami speedway at a 100mph turn coming off off the banking.

I was in my daily driven street car with no cage. If the failure happened anywhere else on the track at that speed, I would've been seriously hurt. Someone was looking out for me for sure.

My lug nuts, wheels and brakes were checked before EVERY session. B-Kerr, one can check over everything in the car, but that won't stop certain things from happening.

Sure other wheels break, it happens, but can anyone find pics of such catastrophic wheel falures from any other wheel? Typically, wheels bend...they don't shatter like these.

Rota was exceptional in handling my claim, and I have been completely silent as of yet because of their excellent customer service. I still use my Rotas on the street, but I wised up and use my CP-035's for the track now instead of the Rotas. I never clipped a curb with the Rotas that exploded, and they never saw a pothole. My CP-035's have taken 10x's the beating over a longer period of time and are fine.

Bottom line, if you want a light weight track rim, save you money for a forged wheel. Light weight cast wheels do not belong on the track.

Bottom line, if you want a light weight track rim, save you money for a forged wheel. Light weight cast wheels do not belong on the track.

That statement is a bit extreme :)

People have been time trialing with cast aluminum and magnesium wheels (and steel wheels, for that matter) for decades. Remember, forged alloy wheels are a relatively new development, and while no one will argue their superiority, they are not the only option.

Originally posted by D_REX
Rota tells me "you are only the 5th person that claimed due to a wheel failure contrary to what people on the net are saying", this doesn't seem like a very large percentage to me.
Ah, but the damage is done. 5 rims in however many thousand...

String them up by their nads. What an astounding failure rate! They should be shut down! :rolleyes:

didnt see the pics in this thread

http://home.att.net/~blairphoto/IMG_1830s.jpg



http://home.att.net/~blairphoto/IMG_1843s.jpg

Team Dynamics may be 4 lbs heavier per wheel but I've never heard of one breaking!

I heard that Team Dynamics rims where cheaply made as well. I had a friend with a Prelude who bent two of his pretty easily, and won't ever buy them again. I have no personal experience with Team Dynamics rims, but I figured that they where in the same class as Rotas.

A little OT, but what happened for the Subaru car to break their rim in WRC last season, I just saw the highlight of it driving on the busted rim, but not how it happened. Also, what is Whataburger, is that like a McDonalds or something?

-Wes

Originally posted by jblaine

Ah, but the damage is done. 5 rims in however many thousand...

String them up by their nads. What an astounding failure rate! They should be shut down! :rolleyes:

True, it's a small percentage, but what if one fails in a very high speed section of a track and the driver is killed because of it. Does it become a big deal then?

I, too, have lost 2 subzeros to autocross. The only time I used these rims were at autocrosses, never seen public roads. Rota appears to have discontinued the models I asked for as a replacement. I am now working with the original place of purchase to exchange these for something non-rota. It's looking like I may be stuck with 2 good and 2 bad rota's.

I'll be nice and not name the place yet, as I'm still hoping to get an exchange.

i've hit some serious potholes/cracks etc in the winter on long island in my subzeros. i even ran over some jagoff's broken wheel on the highway at 65mph and didn't do a thing to the wheel.

I, too, have lost 2 subzeros to autocross. The only time I used these rims were at autocrosses, never seen public roads. Rota appears to have discontinued the models I asked for as a replacement. I am now working with the original place of purchase to exchange these for something non-rota. It's looking like I may be stuck with 2 good and 2 bad rota's.

demios,
Have you contacted Rota directly? It shouldn't matter if the rim is discontinued or not. I would think you can just pick out another style. Any Vendor should have to honor Rota's standpoint on this, but, I would just deal with Rota directly if I were you. Everyone else on here that has had a failure (that I know of) has done so (based on reading here) and the situation has been resolved.

Paul G.

Originally posted by Chuck H
True, it's a small percentage, but what if one fails in a very high speed section of a track and the driver is killed because of it. Does it become a big deal then?
Sure it's a big deal. That's why any self-respecting road racer would closely test every rim before every race. I'll bet you $20 the majority of the people who had on-course failures had not properly examined their car and equipment before racing.

That aside, any wheel can break. If you're afraid of your wheels breaking or a tire blowing out at 100MPH (AFTER fully examining them before a race), then you should not be racing.

When was the last time any of you heard of someone breaking a P1 autocrossing, or road racing(not counting breaks cause by a wreck)

Well?













Exactly

Originally posted by jblaine

Sure it's a big deal. That's why any self-respecting road racer would closely test every rim before every race. I'll bet you $20 the majority of the people who had on-course failures had not properly examined their car and equipment before racing.

That aside, any wheel can break. If you're afraid of your wheels breaking or a tire blowing out at 100MPH (AFTER fully examining them before a race), then you should not be racing.

Youre obviously not a racer.
I'll give you $20 if you can find one racer that "closely test every rim before every race." It's just not pracical. Yes, wheels should be looked at closely for any signs of cracks (just like mine were)...but test...come on. On this board we mostly deal with club racing and track events...not F1!

Yes, any wheel can break. But PLEASE find one wheel anywhere on the net or whatever that has completely come apart like so many of these have.

If you have a certain brand come apart on you at 100mph and another with serious cracks about to do the same thing, and you're NOT worried about using that same brand of wheel on the track, YOU shouldn't be racing. I'd be happy to go head to head racing with you any day in any car, and we'll see who shouldn't be racing!

TBreu007,

I have to back you up here. We definitely don't inspect our wheels every time we put them on. We clean them just very often, just about every use. We would most likely find a problem while cleaning them, but we are not inspecting them.

That said, I'm not concerned in the least about our Subzero wheels. Obviously, there was a very small tiny batch that sucked. Ours are not them. :)

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com

Remember in the WRC a P1 broke apart after hitting a curb I think.

AS I said, NOT counting accidents. That includes hitting immobile objects.

Not a P1, but An OZ wheel: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=299704

The WRC2002 video by that french guy shows the WRC car with one of it's wheels looking alot like the bit still on the car in the pic above. And it appears to be still trying to race.(a rear wheel)

i've hit some serious potholes/cracks etc in the winter on long island in my subzeros. i even ran over some jagoff's broken wheel on the highway at 65mph and didn't do a thing to the wheel.



great........ but the discussion is whether these wheels can safely sustain the kind of side loads and stress that auto-x and track events expose to these wheels. Not potholes or speed bumps which apply force in a completely different direction.



:rolleyes:

These wheels can and do put up with much higher sideloads than the typical autocross will generate. Two full seasons of USTCC without a single issue.

Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
www.teamSMR.com

First:

TBreu: My lug nuts, wheels and brakes were checked before EVERY session. B-Kerr, one can check over everything in the car, but that won't stop certain things from happening.

Just to clarify, I didn't say it would stop everything, but that you would be more likely to see potential problems and hopefully prevent such catastrophies.... anyway, onto:

TBreu: Sure other wheels break, it happens, but can anyone find pics of such catastrophic wheel falures from any other wheel? Typically, wheels bend...they don't shatter like these.

That is where you are wrong. Cast aluminum, unlike spinforged, roll formed, or billet cut from rolled plate, is very brittle AND porous. This is a perfect combination for cracking. Most types of steel and any form of worked aluminum (mainly derived from plate) will most likely bend. As I stated earlier, DSM uses two-piece rims - low pressure die cast centers with roll formed rims. The first set on my Talon might as well have been a set of stop signs by looking at the shape from the dents on the rims! :) Even after hitting a curb dead-on sideways at 30 mph thanks to a slide on unseen loose gravel only bent the lip of my wheel, not cracked it. (It bent quite badly though and knocked the air out of the tire). So....

TBreu: Bottom line, if you want a light weight track rim, save you money for a forged wheel. Light weight cast wheels do not belong on the track.

You are so right here - forged wheels are by far the best way to go - I would think especially on the track. Check out any wheel post on the BMW boards pertaining to the rims on the E36 M3s; they crack like crazy. Everybody is importing the more expensive forged M3 wheels sold in Europe for just the above reason.

Unfortunately, as many have noted, we are mostly a bunch of guys and girls on budgets soloing and club racing without sponsorship cash - Rotas and similar brands look VERY appealing when that extra $500 can go to some other area of the car. As always, it is up to the individual to decided what is the best avenue to persue.

Oh well, I guess I have rambled on too long -- AGAIN! Sorry.

B-Kerr

Originally posted by TBreu007:
Yes, any wheel can break. But PLEASE find one wheel anywhere on the net or whatever that has completely come apart like so many of these have.

Okay, look here:

http://www.texastriathlon.com/year2001pics.htm

Here are some pics from a Viper website of a wheel failure similar to the ones discussed here. This happened to a factory Dodge wheel. I've seen pictures of other failures, but I'm still looking for them.

Neil.

But PLEASE find one wheel anywhere on the net or whatever that has completely come apart like so many of these have.
OK. Cast wheel. Bad batch. It happens...

http://www.rallystuff.com/images/rfxquality.jpg

Originally posted by TBreu007
Youre obviously not a racer.
I'll give you $20 if you can find one racer that "closely test every rim before every race." It's just not pracical. Yes, wheels should be looked at closely for any signs of cracks (just like mine were)...but test...come on. On this board we mostly deal with club racing and track events...not F1!
...
I'd be happy to go head to head racing with you any day in any car, and we'll see who shouldn't be racing!
:lol:

Easy there fella... sheesh.

Actually, revisiting this thread today (referenced in another thread I was reading), I was surprised to read that I had said "test" before even getting to this reply of yours.

I think that wheel design is more important than casting/forging methods.

The attacks have only 5 spokes, which look as though they have a thin spot at one point... Not much supporting the cars weight. And yes, these are based off of another type of wheel entirely.

I would be must more trusting of a Rota Tarmac, Rota SDR or Rota Formal for hard driving use due to the spoke design.

Almost any wheel will bend/crack if the monkey who mounts the tire doesn't know what he's doing. If the tire machine is holding the wheel when he's seating the bead/inflating the tire, the tire pressing against the machine can create wheel-wrecking force.

For those who've worked in a shop or watched them seat the bead on a tire, you know what I mean... right?

Another cracked Rota. Happened tonight 01/30/03

Is Rota replacing defective wheels like this?

http://www.cableplexaudio.com/images/crackedrota.jpg

Are these wheels powder coated? The only wheels that I have seen break have been powder coated. The curing and heating process weakens cast aluminium. I would stay away from them if they are powder coated.

They are definately painted.

Upon further examination, ALL of the spokes are cracked from
the rear.

Matt

Ouch!

I don't know exactly but, IMHO, it sounds like a heat treating problem. Same thing that happens during powder coating. The aluminium becomes brittle instead of slightly elastic and that is why the cracks form. If the heat isn't uniform in the oven then the wheels wouldn't end up with a uniform consistency. Some parts would be harder than others. Or if not harder, then more brittle. This is MHO from what I have read on other sites.

There are 3 things a part can be. BUT it can only ever be 2 of them at once.

1. Cheap
2. Light
3. Strong

Pick two, because you cant have all 3.

Well good thing i got my stock 98 RS wheels for track.

So what Rotas have experienced failures?

Attacks and Sub-Zeroes, right?

What about Tarmacs?

People have been rallying these for years, so they should be ok.

(powdercoating cast aluminum is bad, I thought they were simply painted)

One of my attacks are cracked as well, whats the contact number?

510 786 1726 for rota. Ask for Cecile.

Matt

Originally posted by TBreu007
But PLEASE find one wheel anywhere on the net or whatever that has completely come apart like so many of these have.


I've seen a couple of Audi LeMans cars with a broken wheel like this during the LePetit LeMans or some other race on Speedvision. In one case, the wheel just rolled off in a corner without any contact. The other case, I didn't see when it actually broke off.

Originally posted by bjteel
(powdercoating cast aluminum is bad, I thought they were simply painted)

Are stock WRX wheels painted and not powdercoated?

Has anyone reported any SDRs going down the tubes?

I just order a set and Im a little worried...

C

Yeah I was wondering the same thing. I kinda want a set or SDR's for my ride.

How long have the SDRs been in production? They look better and stronger than the Attacks with the spokes cast flush to the rim and the weight seems to be comparable even with 2 more spokes.

It's interesting that the Attacks have started failing in less than a year and it is winter now with temperature fluctuations from 70 F to below zero at least where I live. I wonder if the temperature change from below zero to track temps is a factor. I'd like to see a wheel make it through an entire year before considering it.

Originally posted by KC
Crap happens in motorsports. You just hope it doesn't happen to you. :)

--kC

Very well put. I've bent my share of rims. I have not tried the rotas, but everything from the BBS to Enkei to Hamanns to M-motorsport wheels.

When I got my 18" subzero's, I put a thin layer of super glue over the back side of each wheel. Never had a problem yet!!!
:lol:

Actually, despite all the failures I've heard about...I'm awaiting my Subs! :D

Rota has been great to deal with so far. They are more than willing to replace my one broken subzero. However, I'm now nervous that as I move into track racing from autocross, the subzeros won't be strong enough.

It's one thing to have a wheel break at 20 mph in a slalom at autocross, and completely different to have it break at 95mph in a chicane.

I'll be wholly impressed if Rota replaces all four wheels.

If only I could say the same for the vendor I originally bought them from.

Just got this from another list....

Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:48:41 -0800
From: MF <xxxx@xxxx.com>
Subject: cracked wheel

My friend has a cracked wheel on his 2003 Z06 corvette. Does anyone have a set or just a front rim that they would be willing to sell? Also what are the good after market wheels for the car in super stock. Also does anyone know of a place that sells the rims for a good price?


It happens to many wheels. ;)

If that's the same post I saw about a Z06 wheel being broken he hit a curb sliding sideways at 50 mph ... almost flipped the car

Originally posted by Luke@tirerack
If that's the same post I saw about a Z06 wheel being broken he hit a curb sliding sideways at 50 mph ... almost flipped the car Where'd ya see that? If that's the case, I'll gladly remove my post. Seeing as it's on an Auto-x board, I would have thought it were something else than just nailing something stationary. :D

I had a set of Konigs Villains (sp) that had cracks in each of the 4 hubs in multiple places. These were on an Integra. Thanks to the tech at America's tire who spotted the problems during a tire rotation. America's tire replaced all 4 even though the wheels were past their one year warranty. Thank god they didn't fail completely while driving! This car had been to 3 track days, and had some aggressive street brake pads that transferred more heat to the hubs on a regular basis - which was my guess at the time for the failure. Also regular above normal side loading ;)

Originally posted by Davenow
Either Rotas are ***** wheels, or they had a bunch of very bad runs. I personally have seen 2 people break sub zeros, and there are numerous reports of broken SubZeros on this board.
I look at it this way, 4 18x7.5 wheels for 600 shipped with a polished lip?
Think about it, WHY and HOW can they be so cheap? Because you get what you pay for.
I wouldnt really want to put Rotas on my car for daily driving, but I would NEVER EVER trust them to the forces a wheel sees in a racing situation.
Rota claims there have been only 4 failures, B.S. I myself have seen 2 and a few other VERY trustworthy sources have seen it happen as well. They just are not a quality wheel.IMHO.
Yeah there are a ton of ppl running them with no problems and Gary Sheehan runs them on his race car, but do you want to run the risk of all the damage that can occor when the hub sheers out in a high speed turn?
It sucks, because I was all ready to buy a set of SubZeros for my car, but after a little research, forget it.

maybe you should try Rota Antares.....used them for 8 years, never cracked on me, strong and durable, that's just my experience with Rota, for the price of it, its not bad for everyday wheels:D

Be interesting to see with Auto-X season upon us how many post like this will show up this year.:rolleyes:

This will be my 3rd season this spring using 17x7.5 subzeros and Falken Azenis. No cracks. No problems. Hellacous roads and 7/5kg coilovers. I don't use them in winter at all. I'd say a good 20k mi. put on them. Afew autox events to boot.

Considering the number of Rota wheels in use, and the conditions these wheels are used under, I would be surprised if there weren't a few issues.

One must also wonder at the motives of the person who bumps these long dead threads, as well...

Originally posted by Uncle Scotty
One must also wonder at the motives of the person who bumps these long dead threads, as well...

werd.:rolleyes:


some jakholed elitist justifying the price of their expensive wheels.

I've busted rota attacks! I cracked two spokes on Moholland Drive!

The sound like you hit a curb as your turning.

Rota sent me some actions to replace the attacks. I'm happy with them.

Originally posted by Uncle Scotty
Considering the number of Rota wheels in use, and the conditions these wheels are used under, I would be surprised if there weren't a few issues.

One must also wonder at the motives of the person who bumps these long dead threads, as well...


its fogtuning.... aka ... well you figure it out for yourself:

http://www.network-tools.com/default.asp?prog=express&Netnic=whois.arin.net&host=fogtuning.com

Sheesh "fogtunning". Over the past year you have made seven or eight posts (i did a search) and most of them deal with other peoples situations regardingh rotas. :D. Problems that Rota personally has taking care of.


BlitZ.

Edit : Why? because fog is in no relation to fogtunning :D haha. doh.

http://forums.subydude.com/viewtopic.php?t=548


:rolleyes:

That's too damn funny. totally own3d. Nice one guys. :lol:

Originally posted by FAGtuning
Be interesting to see with Auto-X season upon us how many post like this will show up this year.:rolleyes:
more like:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: to YOU
Look at the dates of the posts, we have already been through an entire autocross season since this thread died, without ANY additional broken wheel reports added. Nice try

Good job making yourself look like a moron though:)


Thank you drive through:lol:

Well, I've raced my 18inch Sub Zeros and tw hits and taken a few hits and they are solid!

Bent a bit on the inside but little to what I put them through.

I swear by them!

Leo

Originally posted by Blitzkrieg
Sheesh Fog. Over the past year you have made seven or eight posts (i did a search) and most of them deal with other peoples situations regardingh rotas. :D. Problems that Rota personally has taking care of.


BlitZ.

The actions and opinions of FOGtuning are not those of fog.

Rich

Originally posted by fog
The actions and opinions of FOGtuning are not those of fog.

Rich

:lol: yes :lol: Doh, I should have just typed out the entire name.

.

Originally posted by sdecker
.
*** are you bumping this for?

I slammed FOGTuning for being an a-hole, then realized it had already been done. No need in piling on, so I edited.

Might I ask why *you* bumped it? :D