I finally got around to putting this write up online. GREAT write up covering the basics of alcohol injection.

Write Up (http://www.wrxhackers.com/alchystuff)

How much was that kit? Any more info about obtaining it? I'm assuming you will create a new timing map to take advantage of the extra octane? I'd like to see dyno runs with and w/o the water injection to see how much more timing advance you can actually get away with with that setup.

Thanks
-- Ed

That looks like an nice option to the Aquamist system.

What kind of delivery time did you see on the kit, and was it the $349.00 posted on the SMC web site?

Larry

Great write-up. Some questions:

How well does it work?

Are you running more boost now?

How the heck did you get that JOTTO desk mounting boss connected to your floor?

Mitch

Unfortunately it's not my doing. AKWRX is his handle on www.wrxhackers.com and it might be the same here. I'm sure he'd be happy to answer any questions since he took the time to do that write up. =)

Originally posted by hotrod
What kind of delivery time did you see on the kit, and was it the $349.00 posted on the SMC web site?

Larry
Last I heard Steve Chlupsa was running about 6 weeks behind on delivery, but don't know what the present availability status is. I just adapted the standard kit as used on the turbo Buick GNs listed on his web site. He may eventually develop a more specific WRX kit to make the install even easier.

Originally posted by SonicWRX
Great write-up. Some questions:

How well does it work?

Are you running more boost now?

How the heck did you get that JOTTO desk mounting boss connected to your floor?

Mitch
Using 100% denatured alcohol (with 92 octane, spray on point about 10psi boost) the TXS stage 4 maps run with no knock at 20.5psi boost. Also, as a brief test, tried one tank of regular 87 octane with up to 16.5psi boost with the spray on point set down to about 6psi of boost using the base TXS Stage 2 maps with no sign of knock (Sti injectors were really rich, though).

The JOTTO desk has a no holes mount system for BMW, etc., but not yet available for the WRX. I just welded up a bracket that spans the 2 OEM seat track bolts with a base plate for the JOTTO hardware. No holes or cutting of the carpet were required.

Originally posted by Vaus
How much was that kit? Any more info about obtaining it? I'm assuming you will create a new timing map to take advantage of the extra octane? I'd like to see dyno runs with and w/o the water injection to see how much more timing advance you can actually get away with with that setup.

-- Ed
Check the SMCenterprises web site for more info. Don't have the luxury of dyno access here. Currently running 100% alcohol, but will try a 10% mix of water later. Instead of tuning down with less boost, less ign advance, and more fuel to fit lower knock thresholds of available fuel, alcohol should allow significant tuning up. So far, I am still in the steep part of the learning curve with the UTEC. But, boost increases to 20.5psi (92 octane) with the base TXS Stage 4 maps seem to work just fine without knock issues. The result is a daily driver with the power (estimated at 400WHP) and performance numbers at least equal to the TXS 11 second rig on their web site. So far, so good...

Thanks for taking the time to write that up.

Originally posted by jblaine
Thanks for taking the time to write that up.
What is surprising, is that more turbo Subaru tuners have not "discovered" this simple, proven, cost effective technology as yet. Just trying to get the word out...

Any updates?

I'd like to hear the latest before I spend the time to retrofit the GN kit. :)

Not much to update. The SMC injection unit works fine. It has met my daily driver power goals with the basic TXS Stage 4 maps with up to 20.5 psi boost on 92 octane with no knock or high EGT issues. Spray on point is presently set at about 10 psi boost and winter driving doesn't allow much heavy throttle work, so the alcohol consumption has been only one quart/450 miles. Have had some other projects going, so really haven't done any serious tuning yet.

Thank you sir; that helps:)

At this point in my alcohol tuning, everything helps.:lol:

How does alcohol mix with race gas or nitrous? Just wondering if they can be used in conjuntion?

Although I'm sure people can cite testimonials about the benefits of pure alcohol injection, it seems to me (after reading http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/gaseous/GI-01.pdf) that a mix of water and alcohol would be superior.

Anyone here had experience with the Aquamist mapable system? I'm wondering if it is worth the cost for a daily driver, like the cost of the SMC system, wonder where you could hide that hideous bottle though.

I don't think anyone has the mapable aquamist system on the boards.....but you never know. There are a few people that run the standard system and I might be one of those people soon enough.

Originally posted by Jon [in CT]
...that a mix of water and alcohol would be superior. I'm still running 100 percent methanol, but the plan is to eventually switch to a 90/10 percent water mix. The alcohol is really efficient at cooling, but some small amount of water should help control the flame front for smoother cylinder pressure rise at combustion. Am still in the steep part of the learning curve with alcohol injection, but agree that the best way to go likely will be an alcohol/water mix.

Actually, water can absorb more heat than can the same amount of alcohol. Water also has a much higher anti-detonation effect on the a/f mixture (raises octane more). Alcohol is also an actual fuel with a high octane. Injecting an outside source of fuel, however, requires re-tunning of a/f maps in order to not run rich. the 7gph nozzle you are using is equivalent to about a 440cc injector that's running at 100% DC whenever its on. That's a good amount of extra fuel to account for and it also takes up a good amount of volume downstream of the turbo. Decreasing the nozzle size and running 100% water should prevent detonation atleast as well as the current amount of alcohol (likely more), and will also take up less volume. This means you can likely flow more air at a lower boost. Also don't forget to play with the timing. You should be able to advance the timing a bit and make some good power that way. Remember that when running just water, make sure your injectors can flow enough fuel for whatever boost you're running since you're no longer adding fuel externally.

The setup looks good. A good friend of mine built his own WI kit for his supercharged VR6 and I was planning on putting something together for my WRX too. Good to see you tried it :) Now get that thing tuned right. Its just like any other component in your motor, it needs to be fine tuned to get the most out of it. The only two things you can play with is nozzle size and turn on point. Aquamist also makes a kit where you can actually map the injection of the water just like a fuel map. Would be best, but its quite expensive.

Thanks
-- Ed

Originally posted by Vaus

The only two things you can play with is nozzle size and turn on point. -- Ed
The SMC alcohol injection kit has considerable control. Not only can the spray on point be adjusted from 4 to 16psi boost, the pump speed is also controlable from about 40 to 90psi line pressure. The max 7gph nozzle rating is probably at 100psi, which is never reached with this system. The single size nozzle works over a wide range of flows (maybe closer to the 2-5gph area). Water injection has a lot of good points, but my rig is a daily driver, including Alaska winter temperatures. A water injection system simply is not an option for my use. A water only system would surely freeze solid, and damage (burst) components after cold soaking overnight. It would take at least a 50 percent alcohol mix to protect from freezing (good to about minus 20F). Interior Alaska can get down to minus 70F which would pretty much require 100 percent alcohol for freeze protection. Also, some water only spray systems likely would have pump seal issues when adding alcohol because of the water only type of pump used.

How do you like the quality of the SMC alcohol injection kit? It seems that you get a lot more for your money with the SMC kit over the Aquamist kit. Im guessing that most of the cost in the Aquamist setup is the motor.

Originally posted by codean
How do you like the quality of the SMC alcohol injection kit? It seems that you get a lot more for your money with the SMC kit over the Aquamist kit. Im guessing that most of the cost in the Aquamist setup is the motor.
Steve Chlupsa is an engineer, and apparently has gone through the hard knocks of trying various pumps. The overall high (industrial strength) quality of the components was one of the primary reasons for selecting the SMC kit. Just eyeballing in the tank at the positive displacement Gerotor pump, it looks very similar to an intank fuel pump like the WRX, and others use. If so, it should be quite compatable with gasoline, alcohol, etc., unlike some water only pumps. The kit instructions recommend that a tablespoon, or two, of high quality top cylinder lube (provided with the kit) be added with each alcohol fillup for proper break-in of the pump, and also for longer pump service life.
Some injection kits only alarm for total failure (as in electrical disconnect) of the pump, the SMC kit warning (light) is triggered by line pressure (less than 40psi). It also has a low alcohol level (1/3 full) alarm light.

The Aquamist system is compatible with most kinds of alcohol. They do not recommend Ethanol.

Originally posted by codean
The Aquamist system is compatible with most kinds of alcohol. They do not recommend Ethanol.
Interesting info. Any idea why not Ethanol?

I have three questions....

1. How do the jets being commonly used compare to the jets/nozzles that people are using for the water fogging systems on the intercooler?

2. What would putting the jet/nozzle before the turbo about a foot? All i see is people putting it before/after the intercooler, but never before the turbo. It seems to me that putting it before the turbo would not only vaporize it upon contact of the compressor turbine, but also reduce turbo temp and insure 100% mixing with the air.

3. Can i simply use a washer fluid resavoir and pump? basically the exact same kinda tank/pump used on a normal car for the windshield washer system. Im aware that alky injection would be less of an impact at high rpms due to rising demands but only a fixed supply per unit time.

Perhaps the low pressure(guessing that its low) of the washer pump would be more than adequite seeing as its jetting into a vacuum(before turbo) instead of positive pressure(after I/C) like other installs.

Am i making any valid points? im interested in possibly fabricating a system that ran off of the Utec spare solinoid, and i' probably have it come on under the 2 conditions: Manifold Psia is >~14psi and throttle is >~70%. Of course thats not set in stone and it could be changed any time i want. I'd also run a switch to kill the power or ground to the alky pump whenever i switch back to a normal utec map.

Any help would be great! thanks for input perhaps if i figure this all out i can put together some simple instructions and part listings so that others can easily replicate whatever i do, in good trust of course! Hoping that nobody would ever sue me haha oops.


Jeff

Originally posted by NavyBlueSubaru

2. What would putting the jet/nozzle before the turbo about a foot? All i see is people putting it before/after the intercooler, but never before the turbo. It seems to me that putting it before the turbo would not only vaporize it upon contact of the compressor turbine, but also reduce turbo temp and insure 100% mixing with the air.


I don't think this is a good idea. The ammount that gets sprayed will do nothing for the turbo temperature and you said the rest. It will vaporize and come in contact with the compressor turbine! You probably don't want anything hitting the turbine spinning at 130,000 rpm that is not air....

You are also exposing the alcohol/ethanol or whatever you are using to very high temperatures in the turbo, I'm not positive what the flash point temp is but wouldn't there be a chance of premature detonation in the turbo?

Someone please chime in and let me know if I'm on track.

Originally posted by cdvma


I don't think this is a good idea. The ammount that gets sprayed will do nothing for the turbo temperature and you said the rest. It will vaporize and come in contact with the compressor turbine! You probably don't want anything hitting the turbine spinning at 130,000 rpm that is not air....

You are also exposing the alcohol/ethanol or whatever you are using to very high temperatures in the turbo, I'm not positive what the flash point temp is but wouldn't there be a chance of premature detonation in the turbo?

Someone please chime in and let me know if I'm on track.

I run a SMC kit; I would not recommend inserting the nozzle before the turbo. One of the greater effects of alcohol is cooling, and it would not be as effective installed there. I have mine plumbed into the throttle body to intercooler hose.

Ever get your browser working ryan? ;) I still gotta check on what was wrong.

I love that laptop setup. It is exactly what I have been wanting for my laptop for my UTEC. Could you be more specific on what you did and what parts were needed. Thanks

Yeah, I'm curious about the laptop setup as well. I just purchased the Jotto desk but I haven't installed it yet because I'm hesitant to run those long sheet metal screws into my beloved car.

Can you take a closeup shot of the bracket you made?

AKWRX, the Aquamist race pump box says that Ethanol will cause pump failure. I'll take their word on it.

NavyBlueSubaru,
1. The Aquamist nozels are spirally ported on the inside. At the ~100Psi, you get a wide dropplet distribution. Small "mist" for immediate vaporization and charge cooling, and larger drops that actually make it into the cyl. Those vaporize in the flame front, cool the EGT, and increases the relative exhaust volume at that temperature. You don't want %100 vaporization, as you displace too much air, and then there is no cyl. cooling.

2. CDVMA hit it on the head, DO NOT inject pre-turbo. Las year there was a picture of a guy's turbo, and the compressor blades were all pitted and roughed up from impact with water drops. Also, you want the intercooler to work the best, so you want a large temperature difference. Inject after the IC to further cool, as injecting pre-IC will actually displace more air with the water vapor at the higher temperatures.

3. You can use a WS washer resevoir, but the pumps do not give high enough pressure to work at the volume that most nozels are designed to work with. Esp. remember that there is going to be a pressure differential to overcome in the intake manifold after the turbo. If you are running 20 psi boost and using a 40 psi water pump, you are only getting 20 psi across at the nozel. Also, when not injecting but on small boost, you either need a chack-valve or a sealing pump that wont let manifold pressurized air creep up the water lines and make you run dry when you next activate.

Originally posted by NavyBlueSubaru
I have three questions....

1. How do the jets being commonly used compare to the jets/nozzles that people are using for the water fogging systems on the intercooler?

2. What would putting the jet/nozzle before the turbo about a foot? All i see is people putting it before/after the intercooler, but never before the turbo. It seems to me that putting it before the turbo would not only vaporize it upon contact of the compressor turbine, but also reduce turbo temp and insure 100% mixing with the air.

3. Can i simply use a washer fluid resavoir and pump? basically the exact same kinda tank/pump used on a normal car for the windshield washer system. Im aware that alky injection would be less of an impact at high rpms due to rising demands but only a fixed supply per unit time.

Perhaps the low pressure(guessing that its low) of the washer pump would be more than adequite seeing as its jetting into a vacuum(before turbo) instead of positive pressure(after I/C) like other installs.

Jeff

Originally posted by MojoHand
Yeah, I'm curious about the laptop setup as well. I just purchased the Jotto desk but I haven't installed it yet because I'm hesitant to run those long sheet metal screws into my beloved car.

Can you take a closeup shot of the bracket you made?
There is NO need to attach through the carpet into the floor sheet metal. Am still locked out from posting attachments here, so try my e-mail, or PM me with your e-mail address. I can remove my homemade JOTTO mounting attachment, and get some pictures to you. Basically, my fabricated mount that spans the OEM seat track mounting bolts is identical to those available for BMW, and other models, that JOTTO lists as the "no holes" mount option on their web site.

Jon is correct on the importance of using water in conjunction with Methanol. Here is some chemistry for you guys that care.
Sorry -long post!
Subject: Water and its effect on combustion.

Let us take a quick look at ignition. The first thing that happens is the arc consisting of super heated electron stripped atoms forms a plasma cloud. When this cloud "explodes" a ball of high-energy particles is shot outward.

The highest energy particles are the hydrogen atoms - and they penetrate the charge about 5 times as far as the rest of the particles. As they lose energy and return to normal temps - about 5000 k - they begin to react chemically with any surrounding fuel and oxygen molecules. The effectiveness of spark ignition is directly related to the availability of free hydrogen. Molecules containing tightly bound hydrogen such as methanol, nitro methane, and methane are far more difficult to ignite than those with less bonds.

During combustion - water - H2O (present in all Hydrocarbon fuels) is extremely active in the oxidation of hydrocarbon. The predominate reaction is the following:

OH + H ==> H2O
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
Loop to top and repeat.

The OH radical is the most effective radical at stripping hydrogen from the Hydrocarbon molecule in most ranges of combustion temperature.

Another predominate process is the HOO radical. It is more active at lower temperatures and is competitive with the H2O2 at higher temps.

OO + H ==> HOO
HOO + H ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH

This mechanism is very active at both stripping hydrogen from hydrocarbons and for getting O2 into usable combustion reactions.

Next consider the combustion of CO. It is a two-step process. C+O ==> CO. CO virtually drops out of early mid combustion as the OH reactions are significantly faster and effectively compete for the available oxygen.

Then consider that pure CO and pure O2 burn very slowly if at all. Virtually the only mechanism to complete the oxidization (Glassman - Combustion Third Edition) of CO ==> CO2 is the "water method".

CO + OH ==> CO2 + H
H + OH ==> H20
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
Go to top and repeat.

This simple reaction accounts for 99% + of the conversion of CO to CO2. It is important in that fully two thirds of the energy of carbon combustion is released in the CO ==> CO2 process and that this process occurs slow and late in the combustion of the fuel. Excess water can and does speed this conversion - by actively entering into the conversion process thru the above mechanism.

The peak flame temperature is determined by three factors alone - the energy present and released, the total atomic mass, and the atomic ratio – commonly called CHON for Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. The chemical reactions in combustion leading to peak temperature are supremely indifferent to pressure. The temperatures and rates of normal ignition chamber combustion are sufficient to cause most of the fuel and water present to be dissociated and enter into the flame.

As can be seen above, water is most definitely not inert but a very active and important player in the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel. In turbocharged engines, water can replace fuel by 35-40% and develop the same power output. This is especially true in the upper RPM ranges when many tuners are dumping fuel to act as a cylinder coolant.

When you consider that exhaust gasses consist primarily of nitrogen, CO2, and water, you might draw the conclusion that exhaust also is not "inert". The introduction of additional water after the intercooler merely enriches the cylinder intake charge providing a cooler and chemically robust environment for effective combustion.

Running 19 PSI on Stock turbo and intercooler at 29 degrees advance at 6000 RPM on 93 pump gas for the past 6 months since my UTEC arrived. Been running water/methanol happily for 18 months and 55 K miles.

Realbigstauf

realbigstauf... EXCELLENT post--definitely a keeper. thanks muchly.

and to the rest of the posters, a great thread.

ken

hey bigstuff, think you can elaborate a little bit on what kind of setup you are running? i would be interested in running a similar setup, as would many reading this ongoing thread. Any info you have would be greatly appreciated. thanks!

Jeff

Realbigstauf, are you Robert Harris, the original author of the information you posted? (see http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi/archive/2000-July/msg00165.html). If so, maybe you can answer some questions.

How does water injection increase brake mean effective pressure (BMEP) while at the same time decrease peak cylinder pressure (as decribed by the 1930s research sumarized in the article I cited WAY above in my first post)?

And how does water injection effectively increase the A/F octane? Is it due to charge cooling? Reduction in peak pressure? Faster flame front speed?

Please be gentle as many here (myself included) are combustion chemistry challenged. :)

i have a few questions.

what are you guy pulling for hp with these alcohol setups?

what other mods do you have in conjunction with the alcohol injection?

how much would a setup like this cost, and how much does the alcohol cost?

Before anyone else reads that long post that ends with the comment about 19 PSI on the stock turbo I figure I'll chime in here... 19 PSI on the stock turbo = bad idea. The stock TD04 just can't flow effeciently at that level. So please don't read that and go home and turn your boost controllers up.

Here is my feeble attempt in case anyone hasn't seen it. :)

Nothing too grounbreaking on there. It has allowed me to run 24 psi on 93 octane daily with my 4G63. Good for 11s at 123mph.

http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html

Originally posted by crazyhorse
Before anyone else reads that long post that ends with the comment about 19 PSI on the stock turbo I figure I'll chime in here... 19 PSI on the stock turbo = bad idea. And, before anyone else reads this as a recommendation...I agrree...19 PSI on the stock turbo = bad idea. However, 19 PSI on an aftermarket turbo, with water injection, ain't necessarily a bad idea. :p

I do not recommend running 19 lbs of boost on the stock turbo. I have reached that point thru careful testing on my setup. I do so at my own risk.

Normally the heat generated from running boost at this level would take the turbo beyond its efficiency range. The water/methanol injection setup that I am using involves an accumulator, multiple nozzles with flow meters to indicate that the injectors are working in synch with the fuel injectors. The key in my mind is not what absolute boost, fuel and timing values you run but their inter-relationships and where you apply them in the load curves.

I am a TurboXS guy at heart. TXS uppipe, downpipe, K&S intake mod, UTEC but with the Aquamist Water Injection from George’s Imports in Kansas City 816-333-6582. Brad Schaffner is probably the most knowledgeable tuner for WI in this country. Everything else is stock.

The chemistry within the post comes from Robert’s original DIY post. I worked in a developmental wet chemistry lab after college and his post is solid. The main point of the post was to think of water as a chemical composite of Hydrogen and Oxygen. These molecules act as catalysts for a chain of chemical reactions that occur at different moments and different heat ranges within the combustion cycle producing more usable power from the same octane fuel. Water is not just a coolant and should be considered when running methanol injection.

Realbigstauf

Just so you all know... AKWRX has several informative posts and discussions in a forum dedicated to fueling modifications: Here (http://wrxhackers.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=21)

realbigstauf: I would suggest a rebuild on that turbo with a larger turbine and some mega porting if you're going to really get the most out of boost like that. ;)

-Tim
www.wrxhackers.com

I'm absolutely impressed with the level of science involved here. If this attitude was applied to everything from Brakes to exhaust designs we'd be way furhter ahead. Good work all.

Mark

Originally posted by fookiethedookie
i have a few questions.

what are you guy pulling for hp with these alcohol setups?
what other mods do you have in conjunction with the alcohol injection?
how much would a setup like this cost, and how much does the alcohol cost?
Depending on your mods, tuning with alcohol injection can gain similar HP gains as tuning with race gas, or about 50HP, or so. Alcohol injection can be added for increased knock thresholds at any level of engine modifications. My equivalent TXS Stage 4 mods allow tuning up (more boost, more ign advance, less fuel) with 92 octane fuel.

The cost of alcohol injection hardware is less than NOS hardware, and the installation is generally much easier. Denatured alcohol (methanol) at hardware, paint, or lumber yards is about $10 per gallon, which is the same as Toluene costs. Because alcohol injection is an "on demand" system that is only used when the higher anti-knock protection is really needed closer to WOT, the actual alcohol consumption is very low for a normal daily driver. It is about one gallon for 4 to 8 tanks of gas.

Originally posted by zaxrex
Last year there was a picture of a guy's turbo, and the compressor blades were all pitted and roughed up from impact with water drops.
The pitting likely was from very low pressure boiling of water vapor rather than water droplet impact. This is the same thing that happens when so called "cavitation" occurs under very heavy loads on marine propellers. The pressure is so low on the back side of the propeller that even cold water instantly boils forming explosive steam that will even pit a stainless steel propeller. My stock turbo compressor blades had a rough, sand blasted, looking surface on the low pressure side of the blades after 10K miles at high (18+ psi) boost settings in a very high humidity, maritime climate.

Originally posted by AKWRX

My stock turbo compressor blades had a rough, sand blasted, looking surface on the low pressure side of the blades after 10K miles at high (18+ psi) boost settings in a very high humidity, maritime climate.

That would be cool to see the intake tract when that was happening. Like looking off the wingtips of a plane laking off or landing, seeing all of the condensation form in the low pressure vortecies. Then vaporizing again on the surface of the blades. Anybody for steam cleaning?

The picture I saw had jagged leading edges on the blades that looked like it was chewing through something. I think it was probably a combined effect of impacting water on the leading edge and then explosive vaporization in the lower pressure areas on the tail end for that puppy.

When I put in my VF turbo, I want to use my TD-04 to replace the Mitsu turbo on my 160K mile Saab. I wonder what shape that old thing is in. I'll post pic links if it is anything interesting.

Originally posted by AKWRX

Check the SMCenterprises web site for more info. Don't have the luxury of dyno access here. Currently running 100% alcohol, but will try a 10% mix of water later. Instead of tuning down with less boost, less ign advance, and more fuel to fit lower knock thresholds of available fuel, alcohol should allow significant tuning up. So far, I am still in the steep part of the learning curve with the UTEC. But, boost increases to 20.5psi (92 octane) with the base TXS Stage 4 maps seem to work just fine without knock issues. The result is a daily driver with the power (estimated at 400WHP) and performance numbers at least equal to the TXS 11 second rig on their web site. So far, so good...


So your saying that the TXS Stage 4 with alcohol injection can net around 400whp? Is it that easy to obtain those powers on a VF30 turbo?

Originally posted by Phatshiet

So your saying that the TXS Stage 4 with alcohol injection can net around 400whp? Is it that easy to obtain those powers on a VF30 turbo?
That is, at best, only a guess when pushing the limits of the efficiency of a VF30 at up to 23psi. The main point being made is that higher boost levels on pump gas can be achieved without knock issues with alcohol injection. Easy?...absolutely not.

Originally posted by AKWRX

That is, at best, only a guess when pushing the limits of the efficiency of a VF30 at up to 23psi. The main point being made is that higher boost levels on pump gas can be achieved without knock issues with alcohol injection. Easy?...absolutely not.


Thanks for clearing things up for me. But a ball park figure for your setup is around 350-400 whp at 20.5 psi, right?

Does anybody think/know if Home Depot might have a pump that would work? What about nozzles? I am hoping i can find a local place that i can get parts for an injection project from...I'd rather not order online if I dont have to.

One more question...How much alcohol/water is actually being injected? it is my understanding that when the pump is on, it is injecting a constant amout of fluid, regardless of any other aspect of what is going on. So as your RPM's increase, the effectiveness of the injection decreases, seeing as there will be less fluid per combustion event. ANyhow just wanting to double-check on that.

jeff

From the Aquamist setup,
Pressure, Jet size, flow(ml/min)
140, 0.5mm , 180
115 , 0.6mm , 230
100 , 0.7mm , 260

I don't know if many small on-demand pumps that will get you those real high pressures. Try the Shurflo 100 psi pump model #8000.543.236 -- description here (http://www.websight.net.au/spraying_equipment/diaphragm-pump.html)
Not from Home Despot :lol: though

This might be interesting for you, as it seems to be along the same lines you are thinking--
DIY injection (http://cybrina.mine.nu/Description.htm)

Originally posted by Phatshiet



Thanks for clearing things up for me. But a ball park figure for your setup is around 350-400 whp at 20.5 psi, right?

Pardon the chime-in, but AK's setup is almost exactly like mine (or vice-versa), the difference being that I am running a 16G from Turbo Specialties @ 20 psi.

Based on my one pass before alcohol @ 17 psi, I think that 340 atw would be close, given the boost pressure and alcohol. 400whp would be dreaming; I don't think it's even remotely possible with my 16G, much less a VF-30. Just an educated guess, though.:)

Steve

Originally posted by n2xlr8n


Pardon the chime-in, but AK's setup is almost exactly like mine (or vice-versa), the difference being that I am running a 16G from Turbo Specialties @ 20 psi.

Based on my one pass before alcohol @ 17 psi, I think that 340 atw would be close, given the boost pressure and alcohol. 400whp would be dreaming; I don't think it's even remotely possible with my 16G, much less a VF-30. Just an educated guess, though.:)

Steve

Thanks for clearing that up

Originally posted by Phatshiet

So your saying that the TXS Stage 4 with alcohol injection can net around 400whp? Is it that easy to obtain those powers on a VF30 turbo?
No intention to make a power claim, only a rough comparison of similar mods with up to 23psi boost, and tuned with race gas. If there was any hard data, would gladly share the info. Your power estimates are as good as mine. Max power, or straight line performance, are not the goals. My rig is a year-round daily driver, including Alaska winter conditions. There is no dyno, professional tuning help, or high octane fuel available here. Max power that still retains stock driveability, reliability, and even fuel mileage are the goals. They are being met with normal street boost at the UTEC default limit of 20.5psi. IMO these results are possible only with the addition of alcohol injection when using the 92 octane fuel available. Hopefully, engine service life will also approach stock expectations, but with only 21K miles, the jury will be out for a quite while yet.

Originally posted by zaxrex

I don't know if many small on-demand pumps that will get you those real high pressures. Try the Shurflo 100 psi pump model #8000.543.236 -- description

The link you provided did not supply that model number, its not even on the page. There is this one though (8000-543-238). It is a 100psi pump that should flow enough, I was hoping you ment this one.

I can either purchase that one for $78 or i can purchase a 60psi pump for $54. How much psi is enough? I am not sure if 60psi is quite enough to make a fine-enough mist. Or perhaps 100psi is an overkill. Any imput would be awesome, as i will decide what nozzle to purchase, once i know how mush psi i will be pushing on it.

How much GPH is enough? If im going for a nice water/alcy injection setup, just how much fluid is enough? i dont know whether or not i need to pump in 10GPH or 5GPH, or even just 3 or 4GPH. I really have no clue how much to inject. Does it just boil down to a matter of how much do i want to be able to advance my timing/ increase boost? I am sure there has to be some sort of threshold where adding more water/alky only hurts the combustion process.

Thanks for any help in advance! im on the virge of getting this all sorted out!

Jeff C.
U.S. Navy
Electonics Technition

Originally posted by NavyBlueSubaru


The link you provided did not supply that model number, its not even on the page. There is this one though (8000-543-238). It is a 100psi pump that should flow enough, I was hoping you ment this one.

I can either purchase that one for $78 or i can purchase a 60psi pump for $54. How much psi is enough? I am not sure if 60psi is quite enough to make a fine-enough mist. Or perhaps 100psi is an overkill. Any imput would be awesome, as i will decide what nozzle to purchase, once i know how mush psi i will be pushing on it.
Yeah, that one, sorry. Your pressure requirements are going to depend on the nozzle/jet you use and distribution of droplet sizes you want. Finer mist would probably need higher pressure.

Don't forget that you are also going to have to account for the manifold pressure. If you are boosting 20psi, then your 60psi rated pump will only show the nozzle 40psi. Your drops would probably get bigger, and the volume would decrease.


How much GPH is enough?


The Aquamist site has a long set of FAQs and installation tips geared to their setup. Basic concepts may still apply. It recommends a range between 10%-25% of the fuel that your injectors are flowing. Weather or not that is compared to fueling before or after fuel map adjusting, I don't know. Also depends on what kind of tuning you are doing and if you get a variable/tunable one.

With their on or off S1 kit, you change the flow by changing the noels and trip in setting. You "tune" it by running the biggest tip you can, till the engine starts to stumble.

Check here (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/rescr/fitting/jetsize/jetsize.html) to see what the flow charts have. 0.4-0.7mm are I hear what are recommended size ranges for 4 cyl cars. I'm going to get the Fia2 controller and valve so that I can get metered volume per RPM. I'm going to start with the 0.6 and see how that does.
quote:

Does it just boil down to a matter of how much do i want to be able to advance my timing/ increase boost? I am sure there has to be some sort of threshold where adding more water/alky only hurts the combustion process.



You are probably going to have to tinker with it to get the max potential. I just like the novelty of it, the added performance ability, and above all else, the insurance for the engine factor.

Originally posted by zaxrex
The Aquamist site has a long set of FAQs and installation tips geared to their setup. Basic concepts may still apply. It recommends a range between 10%-25% of the fuel that your injectors are flowing. Weather or not that is compared to fueling before or after fuel map adjusting, I don't know. Also depends on what kind of tuning you are doing and if you get a variable/tunable one.


Regarding that 25%, im assuming that this means 25% of total fuel being injected into the engine? So this would boil down to 1 part water/alcy, 4 parts 93oct Fuel. That would make the water equal to 1/4th of gasoline, or 1/5th of TOTAL fluid injected

--By coincidence this(25%) happens to be the same amount of fuel that is being injected by one injector....25% right?! heh. So i think if you look at the injector duty cycle using the Utec, then one could use that number to calculate how much fuel that injector is flowing, based on that percentage and how much the injector is capable of flowing at 100%.

So if the stock injector is rated at 350cc/min max, and you are at 50% Injector duty cycle at 3400rpm as reported by the UTec, then one could calculate that the optimal amount of water/alky to be injected at that rpm would be aproximately 175cc/min. Im not sure what the stock injectors are, but I think im somewhere in the ballpark.

Any more thoughts? does this all make sense?

Jeff

p.s. - I love how everything uses different standards....cc, ml/min, gpm, gph, etc. its so confusing!

This is also a sidenote, something i realized.

As rpms rise and boost starts to taper down from my peak of 16.5@4k rpms to 14psi@6-7k rpms, the pump will inject more into the intake stream due to less pressure resistance in the intercooler(or wherever its injected). This will cause the injection to be more effective. Otherwise, if a fixed amount is being injected, then the effectiveness of it decreases as airflow increases. This effect tapers down as boost drops, and the pump will flow more like i said earlier, causing effectiveness to possibly level out or maybe even increase. This is great for High-RPM knock prevention! This could possibly be taken advantage of by advancing the timing even more up top to make up for lowering boost levels, causing the car to pull harder to redline. This will be very interesting to play with. I'll be sure to log all this when i get it all set up.
---Any thoughts are very much welcome!!--

Jeffrey

I've been interested in WI for quite some time. If I build a WI setup, I'd deffinately like it to be mapable. I was thinking one could use any of the EIC out there to controll an injector injecting water. The only thing I'm unsure of is weather a regular fuel injector will be ok injecting water. Anyone have any info on this?

Thanks
-- Ed

This is an old thread!

crazyhorse- thanks for this thread.
everyone else- how has the long term alcohol injection been? It has been two years.

Great thread. Any updates on mileage on these engines, how they've help up, etc?

Great thread. Any updates on mileage on these engines, how they've help up, etc?

I am interested in this as well. Been considering either the SMC kit or the one of the Aquamist systems for a while now...

- Paulie

just want to let you guys know, i just got tuned yesterday night and my alky kit gave me 60+ more whp than 93 gave me.

just want to let you guys know, i just got tuned yesterday night and my alky kit gave me 60+ more whp than 93 gave me.
Mine's getting tuned today/tomorrow. What are your mods, and what was your peak whp before and after alky? What mix, meth/water, and were you still using 93 octane post alky (assume so)?

modes sti rotated turbo set up, peak whp was 360 on 93 safe tune, peak with alky and 93 was 420. I used straight denatured alcohol from home depo. trying to find meth in my area.