Hey question for all the track junkies or whoever might know the answer to this...

I have some Recaro PP's in my car and I have the stock belts mounted like the NSX-R and Type S mounts them. So the belt goes through the outboard hole once down to the stock mounting location.

My question is on the inboard side where the buckle is. To buckle the seat belt I have to thread the metal buckle through the inboard hole and then down to the actual clip. Is it okay to thread the chest belt and lap belt through the same hole down to the clip.

You can see in this picture kind of what I'm talking about. Just imagine the inboard clip down further and having to pass the buckle through that hole.

http://www.autoguide.ee/gallery/honda/nsx/19.jpg

Anyway, what I'm wondering is if I go to a track day will the tech guys give me a hard time about it?

John do you know?

They might. I know at TWS i couldn't run with my harness unless the instructor had one also. In your case they may say you need harnesses to safely use the seats. I don't know that the OEM system would keep you in place in an incidnet since you've got something in it's way.

the belt seems to work the same as it does when I was using it with the stock seats. I could probably ask someone at auto-x that does SCCA events and they might know if no one here does.

The angle of the belts isn't affected that much because they still have to pass over your waist and they don't get pinched by the holes...

Originally posted by Orion
They might. I know at TWS i couldn't run with my harness unless the instructor had one also. In your case they may say you need harnesses to safely use the seats. I don't know that the OEM system would keep you in place in an incidnet since you've got something in it's way.

Actually, the typical rule is that driver and passenger safety equipment must be equivalent... HOWEVER, many places will not allow 5/6 point harnesses w/o a roll bar/cage, and not many instructors I know will get in a car with a harness if it doesn't have a cage too, regardless of what tech has said...

As for your specific setup ellisnc, while you might pass tech, it seems to me that threaded the way you describe, the shoulder belt will (under any load) end up pulling against the edge of the lap belt opening in the seat... not a very good situation, and certainly not to the spec of the seat or the belt.

Although I know tons of guys think and do otherwise, about your only safe choice, short of a full harness with a roll bar/cage, is the Schroth 4 point system with "ASM" (take a look at www.schroth.com there's an english version)... or you might think about matching the setup in your pic and moving the inboard mounting point (with appropriate backup) so the clip is inside the seat, taking the turn/twist out of the belt route.

hmm, yeah I do have a 6-point harness for my side which I use at autocross and I was planning to put an Autopower bar in it, but I'm probably going to sell the car next spring ('04) so I don't want to go drilling holes in it.

Anyway, I don't want to sound like I just want you to tell me what I want to hear. Just wondering if anyone has seen people use this setup at a track day. I'll snap some pictures and post them with me in the car and see what you guys think then.

thanks for the quick response

here're the pics, what do you think... looks better than I thought now that I look at it

http://24.210.66.43/subaru/recaro/seatbelt/114-1486_IMG.JPG

http://24.210.66.43/subaru/recaro/seatbelt/114-1487_IMG.JPG

http://24.210.66.43/subaru/recaro/seatbelt/114-1491_IMG.JPG

It's really pretty hard to make a judgement from a picture, but the issue is something called "dumping".

Basically it happens when a belt under load is pulled all the way to the side of a buckle or adjuster and becomes bunched up to the point the load is concentrated instead of spread across the entire face of the webbing. When that happens it's easier for the belt to fail (tear). Any time the routing of the belt can hold a buckle or adjuster at other than a right angle to the web, there is a potential for dumping, and it looks like that's what you've got some of in the first pic.

If you're really interested, and for a much more detailed explaination, just do a google search on "seat belt dumping". Among other things, you should see a bunch of hits regarding Simpson and Earnhardt, as that was one of the issues in his fatal crash.

So basically the only way in your eyes to use the stock belts with these kind of seats is if the clip is passed through the lap belt hole as in the NSX picture above?

maybe this one will help a little bit
http://24.210.66.43/subaru/recaro/seatbelt/114-1489_IMG.JPG

then I made this up real quick to show where the seatbelt actually moves to when I sit in the seat
http://24.210.66.43/subaru/recaro/seatbelt/arrow.jpg

Sorry, but given our litigious society, I'm not in a position to tell you "this is OK" or it isn't... only you can be the judge of that. What I can help you with is the principle behind and the general rules of use for belts... how close you come to the ideal and where it's "close enough", as I said, is soley your decision... what does seem clear is that your particular seat and belt combination is not ideal. Even the new pics seem to show the potential for the belts to be pulled to one side of the buckle/adjuster under load.

If you think about how your stock buckles are attached, you'll note they are connect to the floor with a pivot that allows the buckle to rotate so that when the belts are loaded, regardless of the size of the individual or the seat position (fore and aft) the belt "pulls" evenly and at right angles to the adjuster/buckle and then continues in a straight line to the mounting point on the floor. Your seat changes this relationship. Whether the change is enough to make a difference in safety, once again can only be your call (and maybe the tech guys).

this link may be of some help http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/catalog/restraints/restinfo.html

See especially figures 3 and 4

Good luck.

okay, understood... wasn't trying to get you to say sure it'll be okay. Just wondered if it anyone here thought that it would definately not pass tech at a HPDE (NASA or PCA etc.) due to some experience or what not.

I guess if I end up doing some this summer I'll either borrow some SRD's from someone or put the stock seats back in for the first time then ask when I'm there.

I suppose even the NSX-R seats may not be legal in the US, it's certainly possible. But I guess my image is that the actual mounting point of the belt in my case isn't so different because it's virtually in the lap belt hole in the seat and in the event of tightening due to forward motion of ones body would even be closer if not in the hole. Also the clip in the NSX picture doesn't allow any movement (pertaining to keeping a normal to the motion of ones body) as does the clip in my case more or less.

I'm a pretty thin guy and even the stock WRX seats don't hold me in that well so that's why I have these seats in the first place along with the weight savings. I know not to use 4-6 points with no roll bar and basically it's a bad idea to use 4 points only if you're doing anything where you could have a head on collision at a higher rate of speed.

Anyway, thanks for your input I appreciate it.

Anyone else?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ellisnc
okay, understood... wasn't trying to get you to say sure it'll be okay. Just wondered if it anyone here thought that it would definately not pass tech at a HPDE (NASA or PCA etc.) due to some experience or what not.
[/QUOTE

As I think I said in one of the first posts, your setup seems close, and might pass... but you need to remember that all tech is subjective and what might pass one inspector might not pass another at the same event. The only way to know is to either ask the tech director of the sanctioning group directly (and then you may well get pretty much the same answers you've seen so far) or just take it to tech and try. For someting this close, even if someone is willing to make a call from a pic, it'll be contingent upon them liking what they see when you actually present the car to tech in person.

But before you just pull the seats, take a look at the Schroth street harnesses setup as an option that should definitely work with your current seats and easily pass tech.

so ASM 4 points will pass tech without a roll bar? and instructors will get into the car with ASM 4 points? :confused:

They will where I teach, BSR/Summit Point and NASA VA (with the inertia reel).

with the inertia wheel makes sense actually... that way you can still lean forward if you need to.

Have you ever used one? How well does it hold you? I have a 6 point that I use for auto-x and it's like being bolted to the car :)

Thanks for answering all these questions man I seriously appreciate someone with some kind of experience taking the time...

IXLR8,


I got an idea from a guy at work today...

I've removed my rear seat belts in the car, how about if I connected the rear belts to use in the front, just the buckles I mean and threaded them through the lap belt holes?

what do you think?

One safety consideration that is also worth mentioning is that the release button is hidden in this setup.

If you need to quickly get unbuckled and out of the car in case of fire or crash, you may not be able to release yourself quick enough if you have to dig down in there to get to the button.

Originally posted by ellisnc
IXLR8,


I got an idea from a guy at work today...

I've removed my rear seat belts in the car, how about if I connected the rear belts to use in the front, just the buckles I mean and threaded them through the lap belt holes?

what do you think?

I think pretty much the same as before... it's all contingent on the direction the belts pull under load... that line needs to be as straight as possible. Also, ScoobyDoRex make s agood point to consider about bailing... add it to the equasion too.