With a Unichip and no MBC, I think I can still run SP. Does anyone know how the other ECU mods affect class?

i.e. ECUTEC, Xede?

Anyone headed to San Diego / LA for ProSolo or Solo2National?

John,

the ECUTEK will put you in STX provided you have not tweaked the boost control system and maintain the stock boost levels and stock boost curve.

If you have modified the boost control parameters, then your in SM

Chris,

I believe that the ECUTEK is not legal for STX according to the thread sticky at the top of the forum. If I remember reading correctly....

Can I get a second opinion from someone more in the know? :)

here.... The relivant parts are italicized

http://www.moutons.org/sccasolo/Rules/street_touring.html


17.10. ENGINE, section D

The engine management system parameters and operations may be modified only by the methods listed below. Any and all modifications must meet or exceed the applicable US DOT emissions standards for the year, make, and model of the car. These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted.
[list=1]
Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing. Traction control parameters may not be altered.
Electronic components may be installed inline between an engine's sensors and ECU. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU's operation of the engine management system. Example: fuel controllers that modify the signal coming from an airflow sensor.
Fuel pressure regulators may be replaced in lieu of electronic alterations to the fuel system. It is not permitted to electronically modify the fuel system AND replace a fuel presure regulator.
Ignition timing may be set at any point on factory adjustable distributor ignition systems.
VTEC controllers and other devices may be used which alter the timing of factory standard electronic variable valve timing systems.
[/list=1]
All STS vehicles must comply with the Federal 49-state safety and tailpipe emissions test requirements as a minimum. The mass airflow sensor must remain in its approximate original location.

Here's another thread that discussed the ECUTEK and STX

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=296886&highlight=ECUTEK

hope this helps...

Is it legal in STX? By definition, no.

Why??? "These allowances also apply to forced induction cars, except that no changes to standard boost levels, intercoolers, or boost controls are permitted. "

My interpretation that I've been mulling over for the past month and where a protest, if one occurs, has weight:

You're removing the stock ECU's capability to control boost and having the ECUTek's programming control the boost curve because the ECUTek HAS TO BE programmed with a boost curve. Stock Curve/map or not, what came on your car is no longer in control because the programming of the ECUtek is now in control of the boost.

Even tho it's still the stock ECU that is just reprogrammed, you're no longer using the stock values that came with your car. Even Shiv has stated a couple times, and been quoted... there's about 4 different boost maps he's aquired from stock ECU's.

The programming of the ECUTek now becomes the 'boost control' and not the stock ECU. In this day and age... boost control can be both software and/or hardware.

Again, this is my intrepretation of it. Ultimately it comes down to the protest committe on hand that day.

--KC

A chip doesn't automatically put you in STX...
seems like everyone is fixated on STX but I'd really like to see a fully prepped WRX campaigned in ESP. It's definitely more capable than the DSM twins, and although not _the_ car to have (the class is designed to favor musclecars), it's definitely trophy material.

Street Prepared:
"Alternate computer control modules may be used whenever an equivalent change to the conventional system is allowed. For example, alternate computer module control of ignition settings or fuel injection is allowed. Direct turbocharger boost control by alternate computer control is not, since there is no equivalent mechanical allowance. "

-- Gary

I wish you would have shared this opinion earlier KC. I don't want to have to wait until a protest to figure out I can't run the ECUTEK. I feel it is completely within the rules and I believe ChrisW and Shiv designed the STX map to be completely legal. I suppose a question would be, does the entire ECU need to be reflashed or can you just flash a map via address? If you could select what you reprogram then you could in fact keep the stock map that was always on your car.
I believe ECUTEK is software that does not actually go into your ECU but is used to reprogram an ECU, so ECUTEK is not your boost controller. Your reprogrammed stock ECU is still in control.

If we extrapolate KCs argument then you could never use a reprogrammed ECU in any ST car because you could state the software was in fact in control of the injectors. If above was true they would not allow reprogrammed ECUs. Since they allow reprogrammed ECUs any protest committe should disagree with the above statement and thus disagree with the same statement involving boost control.

I wish soo too... that's why I put: "My interpretation that I've been mulling over for the past month and where a protest, if one occurs, has weight;"

Today was the 1st day I could actualy formulate a consice conclusion to my thoughts. :)

I agree with your points. All of them. The issue tho isn't convincing me (devils advocate) it's convincing the other drivers in your class at nationals. :)

I know the burden of proof is on the competitor who is protesting. How can a competitor check the programming in your ECUTek re-programmed ECU? A simple boost gauge in this case I don't think will be sufficient evidence. In stock it worked with Tom... I think because Tom was able to prove his boost wasn't higher than the person protesting him (it was actually lower than the person doing the protesting.)

Now, what happens when I have Unichip, you have ECUTek and someone else is running stock boost... but the values are different between all three cars do to the fact there EXISTS a disparity between different WRX stock maps (as seen in stock last year). We know that. But if a protestor hools up a boost gauge and sees a boost difference between you and a stock car, you just lost the protest. It's as clear cut as that. BECUASE the possibility exists for the ECUTec to run a different boost map (which cannot be independantly verified) it's open to protest city if you show via a boost gauge ANY difference than a stock car that you can check at a dealer.

--kC

Originally posted by ConeMasher
A chip doesn't automatically put you in STX...
seems like everyone is fixated on STX but I'd really like to see a fully prepped WRX campaigned in ESP. It's definitely more capable than the DSM twins, and although not _the_ car to have (the class is designed to favor musclecars), it's definitely trophy material.
-- Gary

I have tried. With the cost involved, you might as well go SM. The WRX, like a DSM, has problems with SP rules the way they are.

1) the WRX does not respond to exhaust changes as well as my old DSM. This is largely due to the active knock system we have in our ECU. It's able to adapt to the extra exhaust flow.

2) a fully prepped ESP WRX would be on the ragged edge on reliability and street-ability. With the allowed mods in ESP, your pushing the stock boost controller beyond it's ability to properly control the boost which leads to dangerous boost spikes at the wrong RPM

Suspension wise, the WRX is far superior to a DSM, especially compared to a 2nd gen DSM.



Now, what happens when I have Unichip, you have ECUTek and someone else is running stock boost... but the values are different between all three cars do to the fact there EXISTS a disparity between different WRX stock maps (as seen in stock last year). We know that. But if a protestor hools up a boost gauge and sees a boost difference between you and a stock car, you just lost the protest. It's as clear cut as that. BECUASE the possibility exists for the ECUTec to run a different boost map (which cannot be independantly verified) it's open to protest city if you show via a boost gauge ANY difference than a stock car that you can check at a dealer.

KC,

FWIW, my unichip application put 205hp to the wheels, the ECUTEK STX map puts out 210whp.

The programming in the ECU is inconsistant from the factory. I know from working with VishnuTuning to develop this STX map that Shiv has detected at least 5 different software versions loaded onto a "stock" ECU. So what does stock mean? With the variations in the stock ECU programming from the factory, I have not modified my boost controls beyond the range determined by variance discovered between the different ECU versions. In fact, I belive I have kept my overall boost levels artificially lower to accomidate the inerpretation of the rules by eliminating any changes to the "stock boost curve" brought on by the free flowing exhaust.

I can blow your argument out of the water by telling you to compare the boost levels between a stock '03 and a stock '02 WRX. the boost levels and boost curve will be different. That is what makes this rule in it's current form, a bad one. It's too vague and open to interpratation.

That is what makes this rule in it's current form, a bad one. It's too vague and open to interpratation. Then what is you opinion for a "better" rule then? I know your opinion about allowing any boost levels on the stock system, but that is not going to work in STX with the level of cars that is in the class.

Chris, could you be so nice as to post the dyno maps of unichip vs ecutek vs your stock for us? If its 5hp across the board IMHO its not worth it. If its 15-20, then maybe. My car ran a 13.2 @ 100mph with the unichip and STX trim. I think thats around 275 hp, so I believe Im right where you are.

I myself decided for the unichip for now, I already have it so its free :) and I won't have to worry about getting protested, just driving. I don't think anyone will be stupid enough to run full boost in 1st or run like 16-17psi at the national events. Those things will be EASILY found on a boost gauge. If you are running 0.5 lbs more or so, then more power to you, you found a way to strech the rules.

-Tom

This thread will be important to new STX people who own neither. For me, it was cheaper to go with the ECUTEK. Also the ECUTEK is probably smoother if you don't have the EMI adapter. I had a Unichip for about 5 days and sold it at a loss, so I don't want to have to get one again. :)
I should get my ECU back tomorrow (fingers crossed). If I get the chance I'll run over to Atlanta on Saturday and get the car dyno'ed. I will ask if I can get the boost recorded as well. Of course, maybe I can get a pull of first and second gear. But if I can't make it this weekend I don't have a free weekend until after the ProSolo in Ft. Myers.

I have a couple observations, regarding ECUTEK & Unichip:

1. I'm planning to have Shiv reflash my ECU this Spring, with an "STX-legal" map. I plan to keep a printout in my car, showing the pre and post-reflash boost map settings, which will be identical. With documentation showing the factoy settings of MY EXACT CAR, plus a re-flash showing the same exact boost map settings, it's going to be pretty difficult to uphold a protest, assuming boost gauge readings are where they should be.

2. For those of us who drive our cars regularly on the street, an ECUTEK reflash is a significantly better solution than a Unichip. Now, if you add Vishnu's EMI adapter, the difference is less. However, I'm pretty certain the EMI adapter would be considered an illegal mod.

3. Aftermarket exhaust systems (which are legal) will affect boost readings, even on an unmodified ECU. I'm not sure there's an easy way for the SCCA to take this into account, other than by taking readings from other "like" vehicles to compare boost levels. Given the variations in stock boost maps, it sounds like even this method will be an imperfect science. It should make for some interesting protests, ECUTEK or not.....

-Steve

it's going to be pretty difficult to uphold a protest, assuming boost gauge readings are where they should be BAM! Thats the ticket right there. I could care less about printouts, I could run a boost controller, but have some sweet notarized documents signed by george bush that don't mean dick. But if a standardized SCCA boost gauge shows 14.5 psi with a dropoff to 8 psi, then youre good to go (and only 10psi in 1st gear). Otherwise, uh oh....... :p

Last comment on this. A "boost check" in impound isnt really going to cost you anything. Last year, Larry's $150 impound fee was returned after we boost checked both cars because he dropped the protest and no official paperwork was filed. Now I agreed to give him the $150 back, but I believe that ANYONE who got protested and then won wouldnt mind the protestor getting his $150 back if SCCA allowed it.

-Tom

Yeah, I'm getting the boost graph so I can show to someone before they decide to protest. My Defi gauge reads REALLY high so I can't really trust it. My gauge can record the highest peak it ever recorded, but I never see these values while driving so they must come from spikes (note, this is with stock exhaust).

My trouble with Tom's example is: what (besided ethics) is to stop Tom from protesting Larry saying he is running more boost? By the example, Larry would lose. So should we all map our boost extra low and then protest everyone else??

I'm going to go get a Unichip that does nothing and run it on top of my reprogrammed ECUTEK so I don't get protested as much. :)
(that is a joke).

My trouble with Tom's example is: what (besided ethics) is to stop Tom from protesting Larry saying he is running more boost? By the example, Larry would lose. So should we all map our boost extra low and then protest everyone else?? You are allowed *some* variance for conditions, different cars, etc etc. 0.5 psi is ok. Hell even 1 psi might be ok, but anymore then that is not.

Also, the cars are usually compared to STOCK cars off the lots. In this case Larry and me agreed to test mine and his car. I could have said, "o you must try mine against two cars off the subaru lot" and they would have done that.

-Tom

Originally posted by trhoppe
Then what is you opinion for a "better" rule then? I know your opinion about allowing any boost levels on the stock system, but that is not going to work in STX with the level of cars that is in the class.

Chris, could you be so nice as to post the dyno maps of unichip vs ecutek vs your stock for us? If its 5hp across the board IMHO its not worth it. If its 15-20, then maybe. My car ran a 13.2 @ 100mph with the unichip and STX trim. I think thats around 275 hp, so I believe Im right where you are.

-Tom

Well, after we talked about it, I would say a better rule would be do what ever you want to reprogram the ECU but keep within 1-2 psi of the stock boost curve and stock boost levels accross the engine RPM range.

I have the plots, but don't have easy access to a scanner at the moment.

Well, after we talked about it, I would say a better rule would be do what ever you want to reprogram the ECU but keep within 1-2 psi of the stock boost curve and stock boost levels accross the engine RPM range. That would do nothing to solve the probles though, because there is no stock defined boost curve or level.

Instead of scanning, take a few digicam pics, those will work in a bind :)

Gonna throw one more thing out there...

If someone protests... how can they read your maps off the ECU?

--kC

Originally posted by KC
Gonna throw one more thing out there...

If someone protests... how can they read your maps off the ECU?

--kC

The only way I know of would be to use ECUTEK to read the boost maps. I do know this: it is not as easy as retrieve boost map A and compare to boost map B.

To compare, you would have to put any cars involved on dyno and profile the boost maps that way.

Originally posted by trhoppe
But if a standardized SCCA boost gauge shows 14.5 psi with a dropoff to 8 psi, then youre good to go (and only 10psi in 1st gear). Otherwise, uh oh....... :p

I would agree, but I imagine that an STX car with a good turbo-back exhaust would not see the same boost dropoff as stock. It is going to be very hard to prove anything without being able to pull the boost maps out of the ECU and compare to stock. IMO, a boost gauge just doesn't cut it.

Joel

Originally posted by AUTOwrXER
IMO, a boost gauge just doesn't cut it.

Joel

I'd agree with that. You'd need a datalogger of some sort.