With all the talk in the News and Rumors section of a possible Saab WRX and the Chevy Forester in India it made me wonder why this is happening. In other words I can see what Chevy is getting for owning 30% (or whatever it is) of Subaru. Why did Subaru do it? What did they get out of it? Does anyone know?

The lines between American and Japanese cars are becomming very blured.

money. If there is a saab WRX, I'm sure subaru would get a good chunck of the money made when they are sold. (personally I don't like the whole american companies owning/putting out other country cars)

The American designers cannot for life in them creat a decent car, all they do it make heavy drag cars and ones that go in circles so they have to buy out businesses with creativity and then reproduce saying it's theirs.

As for the actual facts I have no idea. Soon every good car company will be swallowed up by one of the big ones.

I remember when I first found out that Lamborghini is owned by VW. I was in shock. I have nothing against VW apart from the jetta (which always seems to have one of those break lights not working).

-Matt

GM seems to have the money to invest in "productive" models of cars (wherever they come from), but won't spend that money on R and D........and since they pay their workers too much (the ones in the US anyways), they have no choice other than to vend infierior products only to those guided by tradition (i.e good ole boys).....

I was under the impression that GM bought ~20% of FHI, not Subaru. Just because a person buys a share of Phillip Morris, does not mean they own a piece of Kraft.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people whining about this. :rolleyes: Get over it. We live in a global economy and the companies with money will invest it where they see good things.

I heard that GM bought into Subaru or FHI for the AWD technology

I also heard that the Impreza was going to be the only performance car Subaru was going to produce.

Now we hear about all the different models coming in the future

some future models perhaps

AWD Vette

Subaru Grand Impreza AM

Chevy SVXtreme pickup

WOW what a future we may see

Originally posted by horatio102
I was under the impression that GM bought ~20% of FHI, not Subaru. Just because a person buys a share of Phillip Morris, does not mean they own a piece of Kraft.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people whining about this. :rolleyes: Get over it. We live in a global economy and the companies with money will invest it where they see good things.

I wasn't whining, I was just curious how GM owning 20% of FHI (even better) translates into the possiblility of a Saab WRX. How does it give them the right to take a Forester and thow a Chevy badge on it. It just doesn't make sense to me so I was wondering how Suburu benifits.

Go grab the May 2003 Motor Trend. There is a blurb about the possible Saab 9-1 which will be built off the Impreza platform for AWD. It wont be boxer powered (saab/GM engine). Possible 2007 model.

They even joke about not calling it a Saabaru

Badges on cars are just that. I was shocked to see "FORD" on a Pathfinder in Columbia. I saw Many mixed up badges. When I asked the man I was staying with about that, he explained that that not all manufacturers actually like import cars everywhere. So if FORD thinks a Pathfinder would sell in Colombia but Nissan could care less, they buy them from nissan, put their badge on it, and sell them as their "own".

It's really not that uncommen here in the states either. Ever see a Honda Passport? it's, or at least used to be, an Isuzu Rodio. even has Isuzu written on the engine block (honda badge on the grill though). lol

At one point Subaru was on the edge of bankruptcy. The cash from GM (and the Outback) pretty much saved the company.

Where do you think all the Subaru R&D money is coming from? And how can they have a US only 2.5 Turbo? It's from the GM cash infusion. nOt only with the Stock purchase, but also funneling in about 1 billion in cash.


The Saab and AWD technologies is GM getting some return on their investment.

As far as 20%. Overall it may not be the majority, but I believe they are the second largest stock holder in FHI.

Originally posted by Brad Pittiful
I heard that GM bought into Subaru or FHI for the AWD technology

I also heard that the Impreza was going to be the only performance car Subaru was going to produce.

WOW what a future we may see

Um... then can you explain the Legacy Turbo coming to the US and the Forester Turbo and possible STi editions of both???

Another thing people....

In the world of car manufacturing, all car companies invest in each other.... and please get out of your heads that 20% shared stocks of FHI means GM owns Subaru :rolleyes:
It's not like FHI doesn't know what they're doing... if they sell or make a good profit of providing one of their models (Forester in India) to GM in other countries; that's better than not being able to sell anything at all in India. I'm sure the people in India know it's a Subaru.

Oh.. and here's another... remember the Acura/Isuzu Trooper?

Or how about sharing the same body, platform, engine and just give it a different name: i.e. Vibe/Matrix?

It won't end... :p

Originally posted by 2.5RSMatt
The American designers cannot for life in them creat a decent car, all they do it make heavy drag cars and ones that go in circles so they have to buy out businesses with creativity and then reproduce saying it's theirs.-Matt

Please get off your high horse.

The designers want to create cool stuff just like we want to drive it. Did you ever see the concept version of the Alero? It was a really neat coupe and one of the coolest cars I have ever seen. ANd some of the new Caddy's are really nice...I can't afford them but I am probably not there target audience. The problem is with the bean counters after the design process. But hopefully Bob Lutz will help out GM.

Ford makes some very decent cars...the problem is we don't get most of them here. And believe it or not the Ford Mondeo (HUGE in Europe) was designed by an American but they chose to not want to complete with the Taurus. In retrospect not such a good move as the only interesting cars ford makes now are the Mustang and the Focus. They have nothing I can fit my family in that I would want to drive...and I am not getting an SUV. I hate the way those drive.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Alero was actually designed by Toyota. :p

And for that matter, the Mondeo is sold in America - it's just called the Contour here. :rolleyes:

Economies of Scale....

That's what FHI gets.

The more cars they sell ,(regardless of the badge on the car) the lower their cost is per car. They can buy parts through GM at lower costs since GM buys so damn many parts.

-Nate

to BigElm

I'm glad they are doing more performance on all models

But a few years ago i heard that the Impreza was going to be the only performance model and thats prolly what they were planning on doing

Plans change and its fine by me

Originally posted by Idjiit
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Alero was actually designed by Toyota. :p



Cheif designer was Kip Wasenko, one of the original designers on the Corvette.

Hmm, I appear to stand corrected. I'm not sure where I heard the Toyota info.

Interestingly enough though, the Alero is just based on GM's P90 platform which is the same as the Malibu and Grand Am. I suppose someday Legacies will be a P-something with an AWD drivetrain and a Subaru shell. Whoo hoo. :p

The new Grand AM and Malibu are on the Sigma chassis, along with the 9-3 and Opel's. Not too bad company. Looks like the Epsilon in a better choice though.

Interesting though that the 2004 GA (G6) will be AWD and either turbo or S/C with 250-300 HP.

I stand corrected again. ;) Thanks for the info...

In general, I'm happy that the trend is moving towards AWD/4WD capable platforms. I strongly feel that everyone can benefit from AWD cars, and especially those which live in places that actually have weather.

But ultimately, I'm not too happy about GM's involvement in Subaru. GM is good at making money, not so much at making good cars.

EDIT: Actually, I'm seeing conflicting information from yours... Sounds like Sigma is for their RWD platforms? Check out this site...

http://www.ssrrs.com/platforms.html

The Epsilon is for the 2003/2004 models. I got those backwards. The Sigma is the RWD model.

I stand corrected
;)

You can blame GM and Ford for not trying hard enough, but the ultimate problem is that we continue to buy their substandard products. If we stop buying bland barges from them and buy the WRX and the Focus, stop carting around our one child families in Suburbans and Exploders - yes I said Exploder, they might cater to our needs. With the cooperation, perhaps GM will learn from the sucess of the lighter, more responsive vehicles and add some of them to it's own line up. Subaru could stand to gain from a furure shared platform as well.

Malik

Originally posted by Idjiit
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Alero was actually designed by Toyota. :p

And for that matter, the Mondeo is sold in America - it's just called the Contour here. :rolleyes:

ok...everyone else proved you are wrong on statement 1.

As for statement 2 I have driven both the Mondeo and the Contour and its not even close. The ST version of the Mondeo was worlds ahead of the Contour SVT I drove...And that is really saying something as the Contour SVT was a very cool car. Why did it fail? Lack of decent marketing I guess. Add that to the complete lack of any identity here other than "Gee...its a small Taurus" and it was pretty well screwed. I would love to see the SVT devision wake up from its Lightning induced coma and make another GOOD sedan for Ford.

I firnly believe people in American are waking up and wanting to drive things other than SUV's for a myriad of reasons (gas prices) and I would hate to see the american companies get left completly out of this.

Moons ago, mid-90's Ford was looking at making an all-wheel drive or maybe it was rear-wheel drive supercharged sedan the size of the contour, that would have been in the same realm as the WRX is now. Wish they would have made it. It didn't look half bad. Only prototype I remember seeing was a pale yellow. Anyone else remember seeing it?

An advantage for Subaru in the partnership w/ Saab and Chevrolet is to appeal to a wider audience. Subaru probably doesn't have as wide of coverage in India, and people may be more inclined to buy a Chevy over Subaru because they are more comfortable with the image the brand already has. Subaru thus gets part of the profits from a sale it wouldn't have had otherwise. This is like the Honda Passport being commonly perceived as better than the Isuzu even though the Isuzu was a bit cheaper and had a better warrantee. Honda just has a better reputation for quality, and people tend to have better opinions of the dealers as well. The majority of buyers aren't well informed and knowledgeable about cars like we are. This will happen with a Saab appealing to a bit more luxury image, and maybe Subaru will get assistance with turbo technology/application if needed. I still don't see how a tall I-4 will fit under a hood made for a low boxer.

Originally posted by SUBE555
Moons ago, mid-90's Ford was looking at making an all-wheel drive or maybe it was rear-wheel drive supercharged sedan the size of the contour, that would have been in the same realm as the WRX is now. Wish they would have made it. It didn't look half bad. Only prototype I remember seeing was a pale yellow. Anyone else remember seeing it?

Ford has made a number of really good Turbo charged AWD sedans and coupes (RS200 for one). The problem is they don't make them in the US. I think the RS's and Cosworths of Europe would do well here now.

I know about the Cosworths, yes those are really hot. No I am talking about I think it was like the Ford Profile prototype, saw it in a C&D or Popular Mechanics back in the mid-early '90s. The pic they showed was yellow and in a 4-door sedan boasting some 220-240 supercharge horsepower. To my understanding, it never made it to any market. It was probably the best looking vehicle I had seen from that manufacturer IIRC. Unfortunately, I never clipped that product hightlight out.

You cannot buy new Mondeo, they stopped making them in USA. One can buy Escape which, I believe, is made at the plant in Kansas, where Mondeo, oops Contour and Mystic were built.
Ford stopped selling them in USA after the new Mondeo was redesigned and it grow, probably, too close to Taurus.
I think Ford makes AWD Mondeo in Europe, if not Jaguar X-type has AWD.
Problems with Contour ?
Sedan only in USA, when Europe has sedan, hatchback and wagon.

Krzys

Isn't the US market great! :mad: We get hosed left and right. If they actually ask for some valuable input from some enthusiasts once in a while, they would have about 2/3 the vehicles they make right now, but they would all be more useful. Plus they would cost a little less with R&D going into less vehicles and more production of less vehicles= win-win. It's nice to see some of the american brands dropping some models, GM still has too many brand names. They need to each cover a certain demographic and they all slip and slide over each other. I just don't think a lot of the people on top understand a lot about the markets. They need to let engineers work and penny pinches sit in the corner. The engineers can pinch pennys just as good as the accountants when given a price range to work in. Oh yeah, we need a new crop of designers too. Subaru is moving in the right direction for the most part (new Forester and Impreza), but a lot of other automakers havn't a clue, as in Pontiac and Buick are the two most notables. I can't believe a designer would want to put their name on something so ugly. Oh yeah, if they allowed the engineers to have a hand in design, the cars would be lighter, stronger, more fuel efficient, and safer. We safe money on material and it goes a lot farther in the long run.

Sorry about the rant/rave, I'll go sit in the corner now and stop lecturing economics.

Originally posted by mdot
Badges on cars are just that. I was shocked to see "FORD" on a Pathfinder in Columbia. I saw Many mixed up badges. When I asked the man I was staying with about that, he explained that that not all manufacturers actually like import cars everywhere. So if FORD thinks a Pathfinder would sell in Colombia but Nissan could care less, they buy them from nissan, put their badge on it, and sell them as their "own".

It's really not that uncommen here in the states either. Ever see a Honda Passport? it's, or at least used to be, an Isuzu Rodio. even has Isuzu written on the engine block (honda badge on the grill though). lol

Yeah, I saw a Chevrolet Vectra in Puerto Vallarta. Makes sense since GM owns Opel/Vauxhall.

Originally posted by krzyss
You cannot buy new Mondeo, they stopped making them in USA. One can buy Escape which, I believe, is made at the plant in Kansas, where Mondeo, oops Contour and Mystic were built.
Ford stopped selling them in USA after the new Mondeo was redesigned and it grow, probably, too close to Taurus.
I think Ford makes AWD Mondeo in Europe, if not Jaguar X-type has AWD.
Problems with Contour ?
Sedan only in USA, when Europe has sedan, hatchback and wagon.

Krzys

The Jag X-Type is really just a re-bodied Contour/Mondeo, AWD was an option on Mondeos of the time, not sure if it still is. As I understand it, it's AWD system is more like the Volvo.

How DARE Subaru sell a GM car as their own?! I can't believe that they would take the Opel/Vauxhall Zafira and sell it as a Traviq. It doesn't even have a boxer!:rolleyes:

As for statement 2 I have driven both the Mondeo and the Contour and its not even close.


My point was that they're essentially the same car, just marketed under different names. The chassis setup and the engine configurations may be different between the US Contour and the UK Mondeo, but that is true of virtually every car sold in multiple markets.

Originally posted by BryanH
The designers want to create cool stuff just like we want to drive it. Did you ever see the concept version of the Alero? It was a really neat coupe and one of the coolest cars I have ever seen.

Ever drive an Alero?

I did... I owned a 2001 Olds Alero. Biggest pile of crap I've ever owned in my life. I ended up lemon lawing it. Sure the concepts looked cool, but the actual car left a lot to be desired.

Now it's gone and I drive an Impreza, and you don't know how glad I am. The difference between the two cars is like night and day.

I am not going to defend the driving dynamics of the Alero...one glance at the final production vehicle pretty much sums it all up. It looks like every other GM mid-sized sedan produced at that time and they are not known for driving excitement....I don't care what Pontiacs advertising department says. They drive like crap.

And I understand that the Contour and Mondeo WERE DESIGNED as basically the same car...but the Mondeo I drove a couple of weeks ago was a completely different beast than any Contour I ever drove. Everything about it from the exterior to the interior to the driving dynamics was really quite good. I don't understand why Ford designers choose to hose there own country but its been happening for a long time....

As for getting an Impreza I went from a 2002 VW GTI to this car and I will admit the interior in the VW was a little nicer...so what...the seats are just as good in the Impreza and the driving dynamics are wonderful. So much so that I am not really even considering messing with the suspension...the wheels and tires on the other hand....

One of the reason why GM is selling Subaru product could be that Subaru want to expand their sales while keeping cost down. It cost less to have a well established player to sell your product than try to establish a foothole in the new market. An example would be the short lived Toyota Cavlier that was sold in Asian markets (I was kinda shocked that Toyota would carry such crappy product to start with). As far as I'm concern, as GM don't screw around with Subaru's operation, R&D, and Subaru source quality parts, I don't really care.

BTW: GM owns Fiat and Fiat owns Ferrari, so it's a 400K GM some people are driving :lol:

Just FYI:
Gm doesn't own Fiat......Yet. But probably by years end they will.

If GM is forced to buy Fiat, Ferrari/Maserati and possibly Alfa will likely be split into a separate company first.

I stand corrected. Also, I just remember that there were rumors that Ferrari is going to do an IPO to raise funds. Wonder if they're trying to support themselve if GM does buy out Fiat.