I was at the NY Auto Show yeaterday. Comments:

• All '04s are improved over '03 models.

• Only '04 Legacy was a "35th Anniversary Model," which replaces the Legacy L-SE. It has a "35th Anniversary Model" decal on the front fender, cloth seats from the old Legacy GT, and no "L" badging on the rear hatch.

• The '04 LL Bean now has all "chrome" badging; no more gold badging anywhere. It also has wheels from the Baja (not Baja turbo).

• There were two Forester XTs there. One had a black finish with metallic gold specs in it. I loved the color...

• Speaking of colors, there were two '04 Bajas there (a Baja Sport and Baja Turbo), and both had great color combos. The Baja Sport had slightly lighter sliver cladding, topped by a med-dark gray body. It was very classy looking. The Baja Turbo had dark charcoal gray cladding, topped by a black body. It also looked great. The SOA rep said there would be more Baja colors available this year. She said there would a monotone blue, perhaps(?) the same blue used on the Forester. I think the other colors remain but with a different silver cladding, but I'm not sure about that.

• The Baja turbo gets heated seats, but the rest of the AWP is MIA.

• Baja turbo auto does get both "direct control" (as per the Forester XT) and SPORTSHIFT/VTD (as per the Legacy GT auto) according to the teaser brochure.

• More questions than answers: A couple of the models on display had features that the production model won't get, according to the SOA reps. The Forester XT 5-speed had leather and moonroof, and the Baja Sport had leather. Not sure why they were displayed this, other than to gauge public reaction for possible mid-year changes?

• Couldn't sit in the STi, it was on a turn-table.

• All Bajas get the increased 8.4" ground clearance.

• One of my bugaboos about the Baja, is that it's payload is less than any Subie car sold here. So I checked the door jamb label to see if if the payload had been increased, since there were obvious suspension changes due to the increased ground clearance. Guess what? The "capacity" is no longer listed on the door jamb label. The GVWR is listed (4445 I think), but not the capacity. I thought at was mandated by federal law; I guess not. In any event, SOA must have gotten tired of complaints by me and others...

• Roof antenna on Baja is NOT for OnStar (good!), and it folds for longer roof rack loads (also good!!).

• Last year's WRX had a subtle blue outline around the WRX trunk/hatch badge. That's no longer the case. However, the new Forester XT and Baja Turbo now have a subtle red outline around their respective hatch/tailgate badges. Go figure...

So... no all-new Legacy for USA until '05 model. No word on '04 Legacy GT turbo; although I still wouldn't be surprised if one showed up.

Bob

For the Legacy, 'WE SUCK AGAIN!' (from the waterboy)

I hope that once the Legacy makes it's world debut in Japan, we will get some sort of timetable, perhaps a Jan or February US availability on showroom floors. I won't be in the market for one quite yet, but I am working for the common goal, the sooner it hits US shores, the sooner an aftermarket will sprout up around it (we know it will.) In any case, nobody will know yet.

Hey Bob, did they mention anything about the Legacy other than you stated, anything about trim levels, H6, or any other things? The suspense is killing me!

Originally posted by SUBE555
Hey Bob, did they mention anything about the Legacy other than you stated, anything about trim levels, H6, or any other things? The suspense is killing me!

Can you believe it? I forgot to ask... :eek:

I was so busy with the new Subies, and chatting with my Edmonds.com friends who also showed, it completely slipped my mind. Sorry.

FWIW, I'm betting we will see it introduced here at the next Detroit auto show, in January.

Bob

Bob:
You mentioned the black Forester with the gold flecks, and said there were 2 colors shown; what was the other one?

Cheers
Pat :rolleyes: :disco:

Dangit bob! :lol:

I have been looking around a few places and they seem to think the Legacy will get the same engine as the Forester and Baja for their top forced induction model (less an STi Legacy which I am not to concerned about.) I somehow don't think their ideas are are track, several times I was quited in the 260-275hp range for the new Legacy with equal amounts of torque. It would seem fitting to keep on par with the foreign Legacy and for the extra cost, be something more than a WRX is. We have been waiting FAR TOO LONG for something somewhat subpar, does everyone agree. I would like to see a good 265hp (kill the current model by at least 100hp) and leave an H6 model for middleground.

Man'o'man, I really need to finish my Legacy brief and get that to SOA ASAP!

I am completely dissapointed with SOA. They have made the family sedan sized Legacy the car with the smallest available engine. The Accord, Passat, Camry and Mazda6 all have larger engines available. Why can't Subaru realize that more horsepower sells? I am trying to hold out to get a Legacy with a turbo but may not. All of the cars I mentioned above are always ranked higher than the Legacy when direct comparisons are made(see Car and Driver in February). The big knock against the Legacy.......... it's slow. I can buy a V6 Accord for about the price of a Legacy GT. The GT denotation is laughable since most GTs have power.

Originally posted by kullenberg
Bob:
You mentioned the black Forester with the gold flecks, and said there were 2 colors shown; what was the other one?

Cheers
Pat :rolleyes: :disco:

Silver, as I recall.

Bob

Good review of the Subaru line-up, Bob. I went to the show yesterday too, and fought the crowds. (Got my poster too, though - Yahoo!!).

Maybe it's just a defense mechanism from one bugeyed-WRX owner, but I'm really not that thrilled with the look of the new front end. I definitely don't feel cheated - I actually prefer the 2002/2003 front end and scoop, after having lived with it for about a year.

The GT denotation is laughable since most GTs have power.


Jim, funny you should mention that because SOA feels about the same according to one of the last meeting minutes. It was suggested that the "GT" name be dropped until a model that actually deserved the name be introduced.

-Matt

That may be a good idea, GT= Grand Touring or Gran Tourismo, how about ST for Sport Touring. For everybody following my threads in the Legacy Forum ;)

that does it for me. no new legacy GT for 04, so I will take my Volvo V70R with the 300 HP and all wheel drive. anyone want to buy a great shape 2000 Legacy GT with 90,000 miles, let me know. good by Subaru. oclv

Wait there big guy. Are you currently on a lease, or can you wait until sometime this fall. That was only 1 vehicle mentioned. The rest of the news may be closer than we think.

Originally posted by oclv
that does it for me. no new legacy GT for 04, so I will take my Volvo V70R with the 300 HP and all wheel drive.

There (possibly) may be no '04 model Legacy turbo - but thanks to the rather messed up model year name scheme, that doesn't mean there won't be a MY04 Legacy Turbo.

Besides - Subaru is being rather tight-lipped about the Legacy *everywhere*, including Japan. Do you realize that the it's only a bit over a month away from debut in Japan, but only now are teaser pics being shown to customers. So far the only magazine that's broken the embargo on real pics is Driver (in Japan), and I'm not sure if they are actual pics or photoshops of the teaser. (If they are actual, I was almost dead on with my guess about the headlights in my illustration).

If they followed that same pattern in the states, you wouldn't know until literally a couple months before debut. There are quite a few months left in this year...

Cheers,

Paul Hansen

Originally posted by SUBE555
That may be a good idea, GT= Grand Touring or Gran Tourismo, how about ST for Sport Touring. For everybody following my threads in the Legacy Forum ;)
What a coincidence! That's the designation on my motorcycle: Triumph Sprint ST. :lol:
--
Bill

I'm still not sold that there will be a 04MY Turbo Legacy. SOA has dragged their feet long enough so that they can wait until the major redesign for 05MY. That way they don't have to try to fit the engine into the current body design. Instead they can design the car around the new engine. I hate to be pessimistic but I think that we're a year off. Maybe at the January auto show in Detroit we'll see something. I don't know if my current car can hold off until then. It's down to the 03 Accord or 03 Legacy GT which if you read my earlier post you know how I feel about the GT. The only pluses are VTD and Sportshift. If I knew for sure when the turbo would be released I could make a move. From my understanding the Legacy is usually released in August so we could be waiting until August 2005. That's 15 months!

My guess is that Subaru is being verrrry careful about the introduction of the new Legacy. Let's not forget that that's their bread and butter car, so they have to get it right the first time. I don't think it's like the WRX, where they will be able to put it out, realize it isn't selling because of looks, and tweak the appearance, specs, etc. The Legacy is much more of a grownup car than the Impreza, and messing about won't be tolerated. I think that Subaru will swing for the fence with the new Legover.

I don't think that Subaru will let us Legacy lovers down, but it might take a bit longer than we want.

Kevin

I was there and I asked the Subaru rep why the Legacy hasn't gotton any more power. She said it is comming, and that Subaru is going to bring something worthy of the GT badge. Right now they have the anniversary edition which means the next model will be a drastic change. She sounded like it is going to be a big improvement because she was talking in a "oh don't you worry" sort of way. Don't know what that is worth though, because she wouldn't give details.

Originally posted by Wheeldog
Good review of the Subaru line-up, Bob. I went to the show yesterday too, and fought the crowds. (Got my poster too, though - Yahoo!!).

Maybe it's just a defense mechanism from one bugeyed-WRX owner, but I'm really not that thrilled with the look of the new front end. I definitely don't feel cheated - I actually prefer the 2002/2003 front end and scoop, after having lived with it for about a year.

I felt the same way about the 04 WRX. It looks ok, but very generic to me. The seats where ok, but not any huge improvement. I actually thought something looked kind of off about the interior, maybe it was the missing radio knobs that threw me off, or the silver interior. I like my yellow gauge needles and MOMO insignia better then the red. The sun roof was really small, I wasn't too impressed with it.

That way they don't have to try to fit the engine into the current body design. Instead they can design the car around the new engine. But... they just put a Turbo engine in the '04 Baja which has the same engine bay as a Legacy.

Dave

Originally posted by jim1969
I am completely dissapointed with SOA. They have made the family sedan sized Legacy the car with the smallest available engine. The Accord, Passat, Camry and Mazda6 all have larger engines available. Why can't Subaru realize that more horsepower sells? I am trying to hold out to get a Legacy with a turbo but may not. All of the cars I mentioned above are always ranked higher than the Legacy when direct comparisons are made(see Car and Driver in February). The big knock against the Legacy.......... it's slow. I can buy a V6 Accord for about the price of a Legacy GT. The GT denotation is laughable since most GTs have power.

Subaru is a small car manf. compared to those other giants. They don't have the resources to maintain several engine lines in development -- and only now with several recent successes have they been able to make the gamble and expand their engine availability.

Dave, you made a good point. It would take quite little for them to retrofit the Legacy. It is possible that they may stick the Forester/Baja into the Legacy for one year, to offer us a turbo model. I know someone stated in another thread somewhere around here that they heard the Legacy was going to get the same engine. That is very possible, however, does everybody remember those pictures of the Legacy from AK with the new design TMIC, new intake manifold, etc; you can't tell me with the Legacy's relatively large engine bay, that could not be relatively easily fit in there. The possible scenarios I see are...

#1- no turbo Legacy for 2004
#2- only 2.5L turbo from Forester for next several years
#3- 2.5L turbo from Forester only for 2004, new setup for 2005
#4- new 2.5L 250+hp turbo to debuted shortly for 2004

My guesses are on either 3 or 4 while being closer to #4. The H6 is another matter.

I could see the following:

Legacy
Base engine: 2.5 DOHC
Mid engine: 2.5 DOHC turbo from Forester/Baja
Top engine: 2.5 DOHC turbo with ~ 270HP

Outback
Base engine: 2.5 DOHC
Mid engine: 2.5 DOHC turbo from Forester/Baja
Top engine: 3.0 DOHC H-6 with ~ 250HP

I think the low-boost 2.5 turbo found in the Forester XT and Baja turbo, will see a lot of use in a lot of different models. I can see it being Subaru's "workhorse" performance engine of the future. I don't see its use being just limited to the Forester and Baja.

Bob

Originally posted by rsholland
• Only '04 Legacy was a "35th Anniversary Model," which replaces the Legacy L-SE. It has a "35th Anniversary Model" decal on the front fender, cloth seats from the old Legacy GT, and no "L" badging on the rear hatch.

Ah. The Sign.

(Subaru has a pattern in Japan. Every time the outgoing body is going to cease production soon, they release a "special edition" model. The Forester STi type M. The B4 Legacy and GT-B Wagon S-editions. The S401. The S202. The last Legacy and GC8 Impreza had them too. The names change, but the intent is the same. Clearing of the Holy Inventory.)

Using the occult powers bestowed upon me through lengthy purification rituals (agonizing years dedicated to watching Japanese women), I pronounce that 35th Anniversery Model The First Sign of the coming Beast. It shall arrive soon in all it's terrible glory. Prepare thy racing booties and gloves.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com <-btw, I've got unmasked photos of the Beast there now...

Originally posted by shirokuma
www.apexjapan.com <-btw, I've got unmasked photos of the Beast there now... Thanks Paul!! I like the new look.

Any spy shots of the new Lancaster?

Dave

Originally posted by oclv
that does it for me. no new legacy GT for 04, so I will take my Volvo V70R with the 300 HP and all wheel drive. anyone want to buy a great shape 2000 Legacy GT with 90,000 miles, let me know. good by Subaru. oclv

Every AWD Volvo I've driven has a SERIOUS FWD bias. The rear wheels only kick in when "necessary". Not exactly a real AWD in my book.

Ryan Douthit
Northwest Auto Sports
http://www.nwautosports.com

So Paul,

What date and forum will the new body legacy be announced? How would the US release work? I mean, SOA isn't going to let something this big just plop onto their website without fanfair. Seems likely it will be at a major US auto show. But the major ones are all done until, when, January? Dang, I don't know if I can wait that long...

Thanks for the pics. The beast looks very niiiiice.

-Rob

Serious FWD bias, same thing I keep hearing about the Volvo AWD. oclv, stick with the Scooby, you'll save cash and get a car that is more fun to drive. Patience is a virtue I guess.

Originally posted by rob
What date and forum will the new body legacy be announced? How would the US release work? I mean, SOA isn't going to let something this big just plop onto their website without fanfair.

That's the conventional wisdom. But so far, the major announcement of the new Legacy in Japan was started with a simple mailer to customers of previous Subaru's. That was only a bit over a month before the actual debut of the car. There have been no motor show debuts, no other fanfare.

They may feel they have more to lose by waiting for a major show than just getting it to the market asap, and making up for any perceived marketing losses through aggressive advertising. Or they feel they don't even need to be aggressive about it - the magazines in Japan already rate the Legacy twin turbo as one of the best vehicles of the last decade, and every little drip of information that gets out will be splashed on every newsstand across the nation. I'm being literal here - there is a huge image difference between the Legacy in Japan vs. America.

Cheers,

Paul Hansen
www.apexjapan.com

I wish the STI looks this good. Do we know the projected weight of the new Legacy (USDM)?

As I suspected, we may see wider use of the 210 HP turbo in the next Outback, so says Subie big chesse. Also tidbits about the '05 Legacy and Saabaru.

http://www.subdriven.com/artman/publish/article_27.shtml

Bob