Which wieght of oil in new U.S. WRX?
I use Mobil synthetics in both of my current Subaru's 10w-30 and 5w-30. Has anyone seen an owners manual yet. If you have could you post the recomendation? Or a web site with the U.S. manual!

I plan on using amsoil in whatever the recommended weight is

I will use Castrol GTX at 3,000 miles, and then every 3,000 until 12,000 or so and perhaps consider switching to the Castrol synthetic/multigrade blend, once the car is well and truly bedded in.

No idea of weight yet. Expect 5 or 10W30 prob.

Glenn

In my Si, which is a very high revving car, I use nothing but Mobil 1 5w-30 synthetic. I plan on doing the same in the WRX.

-Dog

I am a strong proponent of Redline oil, and used it in my previous turbocharged car. It might be overkill for most people, but it's good insurance in a turbo that might be driven hard. It costs more but uses superior base stocks and additive packages than your off the shelf brands. Withstands high temps and shear forces much better. Keep in mind, your off the shelf brands are produced with cost in mind in order to keep sales figures at certain levels, so quality is compromised somewhat. If you really want the best, it is the way to go.
A visit to their web site will give you lots of information. Also, I just ran across this which some might find interesting. www.c5-corvette.com/redline.htm (http://www.c5-corvette.com/redline.htm)

hmm the test...did they use mobil 1 synthetic or just the regular mobil1? because the page didn;t say...at least I couldn;t find it..

if they compare it with Mobil 1 non synthetic then the test is unfair...I guess...http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Well.. the service manager at my dealer told me NOT to use fully synthetic oil until 35K kilometres. Right now I use Shell Synthetic blend 5W 30. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

They used Mobil 1 synthetic since that is the factory fill in the C5.

I just got my complete set of WRX service manuals today!

Subaru recommends:
10W-30 for tempurature range of -4F to 104+F and
5W-30 for temperature range of -22F (and below) to max of 104F

Mark

If you guys want to use the best quality non synthetic oil, then get
KENDALL!!!

I dont know if its available everywhere,but its arguably the best non synthetic oil that i have seen.

You cant beat the price either 1.89 a quart, and less if you buy a case.

If i was going synthetic, I would not get anything but REDLINE.

Amsoil is good too.

EJ20WRX

Break in the engine (around first 3k miles or so) with dino.. then switch to synthetic..

The Gaskets and seals will seat better with dino initially. and once they're truly set in, then switch to synthetic.

Do an engine flush if you're nuts like me between the dino/synthetic switch.

-victor

I've used Mobil 1 5w-30 in my car since it was new. I just puts news race cams in at 70K and the head was completely clean. I've never seen that in any engine I've rebuilt before. Of course I was changing the oil religiously at 3K. Which is expensive with synthetic, but after the results I was quite happy. I also like red-line but it does leave a little residue, and it's really expensive...

Also be aware of engine flush, my friend who is a drivetrain engineer at Nissan said that while that stuff is in your engine it has no protection and actually causes quite a bit of wear. Scary!

Well, I change the oil after 300 miles or so. Just regular Castrol 5W30. I then leave that in until around 2000 miles, I then change over to Mobil 1 or Amsoil 5W30 synth. Then just change every 3000 miles as usual.

wrxsvt - The way I look at that statement is this. Is a Subaru engine the same as a Corvette or Porsche engine? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif
Dennis

As far as the Corvette/Porsche/BMW thing, one issue might be that those cars are built with super tight tolerances from the factory. Personally I think any modern vehicle is built tight enough that it will be fine with synth from mile 0. I know for a fact that a "rebuilt" engine should _not_ be broken in with synth, there is too much metal that needs to be removed. I guess if the lubrication was too good you would have a "burnishing" effect rather than the abrasion that's required to get a good running fit.

All in all I think the best answer is, go with dino juice for the first fill or two. It really couldn't hurt anything, so I guess better safe than sorry is the word. After 1 or 2000 miles, everything that was going to happen in the engine has happened and you're safe with the synthetic.

My $0.02,
mbs

I'd use Castrol Formula RS 10W60. Fully synthetic and recommended for use in competition-tuned high stressed engines or ultra-performance cars. Provides excellent power release together with optimum bearing and turbo-charge protection. Not cheap and hard to find. Standard oil for BMW M5 V8 so you can get it at a BMW dealer. If you can't find that, Redline or Mobil1 15W50 are good. 15W50 is what two different UK Impreza race shops have recommended to me. I personally wouldn't put 5W oil in any engine unless I lived in Northern Canada or Norway. 5W oils are usually only speced by manufacturers to get the car's average gas mileage rating up. I've yet to talk to a successful engine builder that recommends such thin oil as 5W.

[This message has been edited by Jude DeMeis (edited March 07, 2001).]

This is contrary to what I've learned from engineers. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif Todays modern high revving engines do not like thick oil like 15w-50. These engines have extremely high tolerances which thick oil does not move through well thus creating more friction and power loss, this is why the car manufactures recommend the thinner oils. Also street engines are less likely to see the engine temperatures that a race engine is, which means they don't need the thick oil because the viscosity isn't breaking down. Viscosity breakdown is also far less likely in synthetic oils, which have a much better heat range than dino.

BTW - I always thought that if an engine is getting better mileage it's running more efficiently?

To make a long story short, use the weight the manufacturer recommends.

Feel free to listen to your manufacturer's suggestions and engineers. I'll continue to listen to race engine builders like Power Engineering UK (leading EJ20 Impreza turbo tuner) and Autosportif (UK MINTEX Tarmac Series National Champions) who tell me 15W50 is the ideal weight for EJ20 turbos used in competition. If you think your experience with EJ20 turbos is more substantial than theirs and that 5W30 is up to the job then that's your prerogative.

Canola Oil. It's green.

-olaf

By the way, Power Engineering is adamant about oil choice for WRX. If you check out their <a HREF="http://www.powerengineering.co.uk/subaru/products/engine.htm">site</a> you will see that they consider Mobil1 15W50 "the only oil recommended for this engine. Special formulation 15W-50 from Mobil means perfection for the Subaru engine." And these guys tune and service more high performance EJ20 cars than just about anyone.

My concern is longevity in a street car that will see a bit of track time, not race only cars who's engines are rebuilt frequently.

Don't underestimate the amount of heat and mechanical stress generated by a 2 liter turbo engine tuned to 225hp. Sure, light oil provides less friction, but it also thins under high temps (cause: turbo) and has lower film strength. I think for those of us who drive cars hard on the street, a thicker oil is simply good insurance. With a 10 or 15W oil, you have more oil pressure and better protection. Heavier oil is also more tenacious and sticks to the parts better.

I guess I simply don't buy the "modern high revving engines do not like thick oil" argument. I've used 15W and 20W in every modern car I've owned and never had a single oil-related problem.

[This message has been edited by Jude DeMeis (edited March 07, 2001).]

Light (5W-30 say) oil lubricates more quickly at cold start-up, minimizing wear.

If you do a rebuild at least every year, as race teams do, the above shouldn't matter.

Personally, I hope to avoid rebuilds in my street cars.

Castrol GTX 5W-30 has worked quite well for me in the past.

I see your point, but I think 15w-50 is far too thick for a high tolerance Japanese engine. 10w-30 should be fine... I've worked on some pretty stressed engines myself, big turbo, 400 HP, 2.0 liter daily drivers, that have no problem using 10w-30 oil. We've never had any heat related problems, mainly because the engines are tuned so well.

Motul, which is not readily available in this country and Redline, are the only two companies that I'm aware of that use the more expensive polyolester basestocks as opposed to the cheaper and less stable POA's. The polyolesters will withstand higher temperatures, will better resist high shear stresses and have greater film strength.
If you use a very high quality synthetic, you are gaining nothing by using a 40 weight or 50 weight oil in most circumstances. The only application that they would benefit you is if you have very loose tolerances in your engine and or the ambient temperatures are very high, like 100 degrees and you have a very hot running engine. For example, the Porsche Turbos that used to race in the IMSA series generally used a 30 weight synthetic which provided all the protection they needed. Higher weights will rob you of power.
Beware of synthetics that have a large viscosity range, like a 5w40, 10w50, 10w60, etc. They are forced to use large amounts of viscosity index improvers (VI) to achieve this range. The problem with that is the VI molecules will crack under high shear forces and very high temperatures and will break down, causing problems. You are much better off using a 10w30, 10w40 or 15w40. Even a 5w30 would be better although I personally wouldn't use that in a turbo.
Keep in mind that just because someone is an engine guru, doesn't mean he is an authority on lubrication. Many of these people are using the conventional wisdom that prevailed 15 or 20 years ago.
I am not an authority on this subject by any means and I wouldn't expect anyone to take my advice. This just happens to be a subject that really interests me and I've done a ton of reasearch on it. I've talked to experts in this field. I would suggest that anyone who is interested should do some research and then make your choice.
At $7.00/qt. Redline is not cheap but look at it this way. If you change the oil every 5000 miles and drive 20,000 miles per year, it would cost you about $160 per year including oil filters. That's not that much, really. Using Mobil 1 would cost you about $100 per year. To me, the extra $60 per year is a small price to pay for the added protection and piece of mind.
Sorry for the long post.

For a really hot climate like Florida, I have been considering 10w30 or 10w40 synthetic. After reading this thread I may start with regular oil (non-synthetic) since I don't see how it could hurt, and some think it may help.

I am right in assuming that hot weather would not be appropriate for 5w30, right?

I'll just wait until I receive the owner's manual of WRX...

Is there any concrete proof out there of when you should switch to synthetic? Clearly, there are folks like Mr. Wallace who feel proper break-in cannot be achieved with synthetic, and then there are those who immediately switch to synthetic on a brand new motor. The fact that Corvettes and all Porsches come with synthetic from the factory suggests to me that it is okay to use from the start, but having no proof I don't want to make that conclusion.

Truth be told, I'd bet it doesn't make a whole lot of difference as far as break-in is concerned, and I'd also bet that changing oil at 3000 mile intervals is far more important than what type of oil you use, but these are just my own opinions gained through limited experience.

I'm going to take it fairly easy for 1000 miles in my WRX, change the oil to Mobil 1 (unless I see a good reason I shouldn't), and hammer away starting at mile 1000.1. This method was used on my Contour SVT, and it has dynoed as one of the most powerful stock SVT's I've ever heard of, and I've had no engine problems.

Once again, just my ideas. I'm looking for proof to tell me otherwise.

Phil

Last year, after running my final 2 minute stage at the Durham NY SCCA rallycross (which I set fastest stage time and won overall in my WRX STi V3), the 10W30 Mobil1 thinned so badly that my idling oil pressure dropped to the point where the pressure light came on. After changing the oil, everything was again fine. The next week I called my friend Howard in UK (competition EJ20 engine builder who prepares Roger Duckworths car) and he said I shouldn't be running anything less than 15W50 in that motor. Feel free to do whatever you like, but my personal experience with my WRX and the advise of everyone with similar experience is to use 15W50. After that scary episode, I can assure you that 10W30 will never find it's way into my sump again.

[This message has been edited by Jude DeMeis (edited March 08, 2001).]

Wow, great info guys -- I must say I'm quite impressed by the depth of knowledge here. Sure beats the average "Well my daddy used this and I do too" thread. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Anybody have thoughts on the NEW Mobil-1 formulation? IIRC they changed to a paraffin base stock sometime in 1999 -- so your previous good experience with Mobil-1 may no longer be relevant. As far as I know the decision to change formulations had more to do with cost and trying to reach a larger market, i.e., NOT with our best interests in mind.

I've always been a dino oil advocate for N/A engines, but I'm probably going synthetic in the WRX for the sake of the turbo bushings. After the car is broken in (~1500 mi) of course.

Necromancer - Are you sure about they changed to paraffin basestocks? Or is it from paraffin. From Mobil1 :"..The Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic Series motor oils are manufactured from 100% synthetic base stocks. These include polyalphaolefins (PAO) and two other Mobil synthetic fluids which make up the Tri-Synthetic formula. These synthetic base fluids are pure chemicals which do not contain the impurities or waxes inherent in conventional mineral oils."

Harrydog - Where can I find data that polyolester base stocks are more stable than PAO's that are in Amsoil and Mobil1?

Dennis

I don't buy into redlines reccomended 7000 mile change interval. They are just trying to make their price seem more competitive. I'd say watever oil you use you will get much less engine wear if you change it every 3000 miles or less. You will be to tempted to stretch the mileage on the redline oil, so I think a more reasonable priced common synthetic after 500 miles on the stock oil, and one of the premium filters (with out teflon added) would be my choice. Then really no fudging, change the oil and filter every 3000 miles or once a year if you don't drive that much (good luck).

bluesubie said: Necromancer - Are you sure about they changed to paraffin basestocks? Or is it from paraffin. From Mobil1 :"..The Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic Series motor oils are manufactured from 100% synthetic base stocks. These include polyalphaolefins (PAO)

All I remember is that they changed formulation sometime in the last 2 years, and that it was widely regarded as a negative step in quality. Sorry about the speculation. : )

Question still stands -- is the new Mobil-1 still a quality product?

[This message has been edited by Necromancer (edited March 08, 2001).]

Regarding Mobil 1 changning their formulation;

Wasn't that Castrol Syntec? I think Pat Bedard or one of the other C&D editors did a column on that within the last year. When Syntec went to a parrafin base stock (or non-synthetic anyway), Mobil took them to court because Castrol still claimed that Syntec was 100% synthetic. Mobil lost the case (on the rationale that since Castrol changed the chemical compound of the base stock somehow, technically that made it 'synthetic'), but I think it was Syntec that changed their formula for the worse, not Mobil.

Hersbird - if you don't buy into Redlines 7000 mile change interval then you would really be shocked by what Amsoil wants you to believe. I used to change the Redline in my Audi turbo every 3000 miles but I wasn't putting high mileage on it, so it was affordable. With the WRX I plan on changing the oil every 5000 miles using Redline, because this will be a commuter car and will rack up more mileage. I don't think there is any problem with that whatsoever.
I used to be a strong believer in the 3000 mile interval but I truly believe that the advances made in oils, particularly synthetics, make that somewhat obsolete today. In a good synthetic, the oil itself doesn't wear out. It is the additive packages that eventually become depleted. A quality oil like Redline will use superior additives that will last longer than your cheaper oils. The Total Base Number (TBN) is usually an indicator of how good the additive package is: the higher the number the better.
I feel much better changing Redline, or even another good synthetic every 5000 than I would a petroleum oil every 3000, particularly a turbo engine.
bluesubie - you can go to www.redlineoil.com (http://www.redlineoil.com) and get some information there. You could try calling Redline and asking for Roy Howell, their cheif chemist. He used to work at Lubrizol, the company that supplies much of the additives to the oil companies. I've spoken with him in the past and he was VERY helpful and knowledgeable. Redline is not aggressive in their marketing because they are selling about as much as they can make and they have a very strong word of mouth following, so you won't get any hard sell from Roy. Just have specific questions ready for him and he'll give you straight answers. Also, go to www.motul.com (http://www.motul.com) and click on the english version. They also have some good information. You can also do a search on the web. And look into what types of lubricants are used in aircraft turbine engines, and you'll find that they are polyolesters, because POA's and other synthetics can't stand up to the tremendous stresses and heat produced by these engines.
Mobil 1, for example, touts the fact that their synthetic will withstand temperatures up to 450 degrees without breaking down (plus or minus...I forget the exact number, but that's close). Petroleum oils are considerably lower than this. Redline will withstand temperatures up to 700 degrees. Motul is probably about the same.

Rao, if the heavier oil is stuck to the parts instead of all run down into the pan like water, why would that not be better wear protection at startup? Am I wrong to have good piece of mind seeing my cold start ready valvetrain all slicked down with that sticky oil? Seems that oil in the pan does no lubricating until it gets pumped. And that happens a few hundred RPMs after the motor starts.

Also, you say the heavier oil can be "quite damaging". What does it damage and how? The only problem I've seen with using heavy oil is the occasional blowing of seals due to higher pressures, but never on a Subaru. As a precaution, I always avoid high rpms until the oil has reached operating temp anyway.

[This message has been edited by Jude DeMeis (edited March 08, 2001).]

On changing the forumulation:
Mobil1 "improved" their synthetic a couple of years ago when they switched to a "Tri-Synthetic formula. Probably an improved forumla. Yes, Mobil took Castrol to court claiming false advertising because Castrol switched to a conventional base stock instead of 100% synthetic. The court ruled in favor of Castrol because it still met the SAE's guidelines of a synthetic. Now the $60,000 question. Is there data showing that the dino base stock Syntec is an inferior product? Even on Amsoil's web page, the Syntec rated close to Amsoil 2000 in the ball wear scar test.

On the 20W50: I just looked in my owner's manual and it recommends 20/50 in severe situations such as towing and desert driving.

Dennis

Most synthetic oils have a natural affinity for metal and will leave an oil film on all surfaces, which help you at start up. Higher viscosity does not increase this tendency. A 5w30 or a 10w30 will start pumping quicker on cold startup than will a 15w50 or a 20w50 and therefor reach all areas that require lubrication quicker.
I might agree that if I were driving my WRX for extended periods at the track during the summer, a higher viscosity would make sense. I would use a 15w40 or 15w50 in that case, but still I wouldn't be afraid to use Redline 10w30 under those conditions either, and in pretty much all other circumstances, the 15w50 would be of no additional benefit. Remember though, I'm not talking about petroleums.
Another thought. I used to live in New Hampshire and drove a Honda as a commuter car. It never saw the inside of a garage at night. We would commonly get -10, -20 and occasionally even -30 degree temperatures at night. Sometimes, it would be extremely difficult to shift (manual) into gear first thing in the morning because the transmission oil was so thick. I switched to Redline MTL and the difference was absolutely amazing.
I'm totally sold on quality synthetics.

Jude,

Feel free to put whatever oil in your motor that you like. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

I wouldn't feel better about having that thick oil because until you are at a higher temp, that oil is too thick to travel where it needs to travel unimpeaded. The mojority of wear occurs at startup, which is when the higher viscosity oil will not be able to do the job as well as something speced for tighter clearances. Waiting for the motor to warm up dosen't avoid the problem - it is the problem! That dosen't mean that yoour car will blow up if you put straight 50 weight oil in it (unless you have an Audi S4, but that's another story and why 0w30 oil is required for it), but it dosen't help. Just because the oil appears "thin" dosen't mean that it can't do the job. Take some 50 weight oil and put it iin the fridge for a few hours (how to get that past your wife is something I can't help you with http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif), then take it out and have a look and imagine stuffing that thick oil through the main bearings.

Ken suggested that "Light oil lubricates more quickly at cold start-up, minimizing wear". What about tenacity? When we pull valve covers from Esprit Turbo engines (Lotus Cars specifies Valvoline Racing 20W50) the thick, viscous, oil is seen stuck clinging to everything on the valve train. In contrast, when you drain 5W30 from a car it's so thin it pisses out like water.

Jude, It is supposed to be that way. The 20w-50 has a much higher viscosity at normal temps so it is thicker than the 5w-30. This dosen't mean that protects more, just that it has higher viscosity at lower tems, which can be quite damaging if the engine is not designed for such a thick oil. The bottom line is to use oil that meets the specs for the engine. If you throw straight 50 weight oil in a motor designed for 5w-30, you are guaranteed to greatly increase wear, especially if the engine is ever started when the temps are cool or cold.

For a street driven engine that sees occasional track time, I think the 15W-50 would only be good to use in warmer climates. 90% of ALL engine wear (on an engine in the above conditions) takes place at cold startup. Having 5W-X oil in there helps reduce this wear, particularly when temps are below freezing.

I have no doubts that these race shops know what they are talking about, but I think they are recommending 15W-50 because it is the best for race conditions. I can appreciate that, as I do occasionally autocross and do track events, and perhaps during the summer when I do that stuff I will use a heavier oil. But when winter comes, I really think your engine is better off with that first number being a 5 and not a 15.

Probably best just to go with what Subaru recommends as far as weight for general purposes, and if you are going to race a lot then go to the heavier stuff. Just my take on it.


Phil

"..Redline will withstand temperatures up to 700 degrees. Motul is probably about the same."
Harrydog - Where did you get those numbers? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/eek.gif
According to their web page, Redline's highest flash point is the 20W50 at 503F. The 10w30 is 475. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif
Dennis

My car is under warranty. I put the Subaru recommended oil in the engine. If the engine stuffs up because of it, I'll take it back and they can fix it, free of charge.

Do exactly what Subaru specifies and document what you do. If you ever have any engine problems you are covered.

If you race your car, you might consider these racing viscosity oils and/or techniques.

I will say that engine oil changes intervals are increasing every year. VW is now recommending 10k mileage interval for their VR6 engines. I can't remember, but some car manufacturer just came out with a 25k interval!

-olaf

Someone mentioned that warming up a car before driving it was a problem.

Is this the case?

I have heard conflicting reports. Some say you should always warm your car up when its cold outside. Other say you should start the car and drive away immediately-keeping the revs low until the car warms up.

Whats the best approach? What do you do?

bluesubie wrote "I just looked in my owner's manual and it recommends 20/50 in severe situations such as towing and desert driving."

I guess my idea of following the lead of world-class Impreza race teams and using 15W50 for hard driving is not far off from what Subaru recommends. Curious how they don't advocate 5W30 like many of the guys on this group. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

as for the "warm up" procedure, I always let the car idle for about 30 seconds to get the oil pressure stable, and then I drive gently (no full throttle and revs below 2500) until the car is up to temp. The main advantage of driving a car to warm it up is that everything reaches full operating temp quicker. It also saves gas.

bluesubie - I hadn't looked into this subject for awhile and when I saw this topic, I dug up some info I had at home and also did some web browsing. I can't remember where I found the 700 degree info but I will find it and let you know.
I realize that Redline lists 475 as the flashpoint however, if you go to their technical information section you will find various ASTM and other tests comparing Redline to other oils. In the Thermal Stability Test they compare Redline 10w30 and others to various other synthetics. The other synthetics are listed only as "Q" , "A", "V", and "M". When I questioned the Redline technical guy on this he said they did not want to directly disparage other companies and therefor did not publish their names but that Q = Quaker State, A = Amsoil, V = Valvoline, and M = Mobil 1.
Anyway, in this test, the oils are subjected to 500 degree temperatures for 3 hours. After that, the amount of hard deposits left behind are measured. The Redline had 0% while some of the others had as much as 25%. So, I don't know where their 475 degree flash point came from but it would seem they can withstand more than that.

[This message has been edited by harrydog (edited March 09, 2001).]

Jude,

I never claimed that it was never apropriate to rum 20w50 - neither of us has seen the owner's manual for the wrx. My recommendation was to follow the owner's manual. If you are actually towing or running in the desert, then 20w50 is great.
Just because "world class" subaru teams recommend 15w-50 or whatever dosen't really mean anything, unless your car is running ONLY WRC events and you don't mind rebuilding your motor a few times sason just like they do http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif. They do a lot of things that would not be appropriate for a street car that is expected to last for more than 100,000 miles and is run in all kinds of weather. I'm sure my daily commute would destroy a WRC motor in a few weeks.

Oil viscosity degrades with use too. In other words, if you fill your car up with 15W oil, after 5k miles of use it will probably have the viscosity of 10W or lower. Heat kills oil. Towing and desert driving causes more heat build up. Likewise, track, autocross, and rally driving cause heat build up. That's why people that push the envelope recommend 20W or 15W oil. The 5w is fine for street use, but if you are gonna beat on your car, it's not the best alternative.

Best Advice:
The best advice I have ever been given was by some guy in his 60's who was an engine builder for some BMW team. He said to just think about how you are driving your car. If you drive it hard, race the car, and notice that you are 'burning' some of the oil, it is a good idea to change it frequently - like even every 2000 miles. If you drive the car easy, there is no need to replace the oil at 3k miles. What did they do? Well, after a really demanding race under hot conditions, they would change the oil. If things were more easy going and the car didn't run hot, they'd leave it in longer.

Think about it. This makes a lot of sense. What is the goal? You want to protect your engine. If the oil is clean and has a good viscosity, it is protecting your engine. As soon as you begin to compromise these characteristics you begin to cause premature wear.

-olaf

[This message has been edited by olaf (edited March 09, 2001).]

olaf, me thinks you know not of what you speak!
On the other hand, what ARE you saying?

rao wrote:
"world class" subaru teams recommend 15w-50 or whatever dosen't really mean anything

Um, actually Roger Duckworth races Group-N class which uses a fairly stock STi engine. It may mean nothing to you that these guys specifically recommended 15W50 in EJ20 for street and track use, but I personally trust their advise over a Subaru USA owners manual. The US WRX is nothing special or new. Feel free to engage in your own development program, but I'd listen to these guys. They've been beating the bag out of that same Subaru EJ20 motor for ten years. I think it's likely from that experience they probably already know what oil works best.

[This message has been edited by Jude DeMeis (edited March 11, 2001).]

Jude, I think rao meant that even if they are the same or very similar motors, the average Joe's motor in his/her WRX will not see the type of use as a motor in a rally car would( i.e. constant full boost-no boost-full boost, high rpm-low rpm-high rpm usage, hour after hour after hour), where the objective is to get the motor to last at least the rally if not a few, not 100,000 plus miles of day-to-day driving. Same motor maybe, but two different scenarios with two different answers, both being correct in their own situation.

My car will most likely see a weekend at the auto-x or drags now and then, and I'm sure Subaru had/has that in mind when building the WRX. That being said, I'll stick to the suggestion that the guys who designed the motors make( aka owners manual ).

Shik, following the advice of the owners manual, my "weekend at the auto-x" ended with low oil pressure and a sump of spent 10W30. I figured most people on this list would benefit from the practical experience of experts like the rally teams and myself who actually campaign WRX turbos in competition events. If you think the level of mechanical stress on your engine during autocross or drag racing is more appropriately addressed by a Subaru USA owners manual than the trials and tribulations of seasoned WRX racers, then go for it... http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Jude DeMeis (edited March 11, 2001).]

Fair enough Jude. But, IMHO, a few 1 minute runs( give or take) over the period of a few hours is going to affect oil differently then "beating the bag" out of your motor hour after hour with little break time inbetween over the period of day or two.

Believe me, I'm no specialist on oil, but it would seem to me that a rally, where you are going to be pushing the car and it's motor to the limit for hours on end, can be considered as a "severe driving condition", whereas, a few 14 second runs or 1 minute laps over the course of a day with breaks in between is well within the car's and it's suggested motor oil's tolerances.

Again, two different cause and effects, with two differnt answers.

And not sure why you keep referring to the "USA" owners manual, but I would have to assume that since the Impreza is 99% built and assembled in Japan, the suggested oil weight of the WRX comes from the trials and tribulations of Subaru Engineers who designed and built these motors to last thousands and thousands of day-to-day trouble-free driving miles, not simply a "USA owners manual".

If your motor will be used differently, then I agree 100 percent that a different weight of oil may be something you should look seriously into. Otherwise, Subaru would have never suggested to use a different grade oil in "severe driving conditions". If the guys at Subaru felt 15w50 was the best all-around oil for everyday use in the car, they would have said so. I may be wrong though.

Directly from the Redline web site, on the subject of their 15w50 and 20w50 oils:
"Good for engines that regularly run very high oil temperatures. Best for engines that run large clearances...air cooled...all out racing engines that only see occasional street use. Not recommended at temperatures at or below 10 degrees F. Not recommended for street use in engines that see sustained oil temperatures below 225 degrees F."
So, for my money, I go with Redline 10w30 and maybe 10w40 in the summer. If I was actually rallying or roadracing the car, then I might go with the 15w50.
I would be hesitant about using 10w30 petroleum though. And definitely no 5w for me.

Anyone try Leading Edge lubricant, www.lelube.com? (http://www.lelube.com?) They use it over at www.atomicperformace.com (http://www.atomicperformance.com) for there LS/Vtec hybrid and have dyno proven it for hp gains.

[This message has been edited by illmatic (edited March 11, 2001).]

Gee Jude, that really hurts and I'm glad you know famous people. Unfortunately I don't have a development program, but I am sure you do and that it is a huge one at that.

Go ahead and use whatever oil you want in your daily driver. I'm sure that the only reason the 5 weight (or 10 or 0) oil is sold is some sort of giant conspiracy to damage you car. I'll continue to live on the edge (and BTW, my car is designed to run with 0w30 oil, scary, huh?).

If you want to argue about this, please take it to e-mail. I was trying to answer your questions in an honest and accurate way, which I did, sorry I bothered.

harrydog -

What I'm saying is if you drive your car hard (or race) you would be better served running 15W or 20W oil and changing it frequently, particularly after demanding events.

If you are 'street racing' or commuting, use/change what the manufacturer recommends.

-olaf

Jude - I wonder if you had low oil pressure on the Mobil1 10W30 because Mobil1 is thinner at high temps? Looking on Mobil1's web page, the viscosity at 100 deg C. is cSt 10.0. Looking at Syntec 10W30 (from the data sheet they mailed me), it's 11.5. In fact, only one Castrol grade (conv., blend, or synth) gets below 10 and that's the Syntec 5W30. Could you please auto-x with Syntec 10W30 and let us know what happens? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif
Dennis
edit: info

[This message has been edited by bluesubie (edited March 12, 2001).]

Shik, you may be correct about a one minute autocross run, but I often drive my WRX extremely hard, even on the street. Ask Vers.3 (Rich) sometime about the "little drive" we went for last October in the deserted Catskill mountains with 1000 foot climbs at sustained boost levels and speeds from 85-110mph- easily as punishing to the oil and engine as a "rally stage".

Rao, I'm not arguing, simply repeating info and experiences I've seen and heard from people who actually own and run WRXs, rather than sit on the edge of their seats waiting for them to arrive in the USA. No, there is no "giant conspiracy to damage you car" with 5W30 oil, but it's old news that automakers specify the lightest oil tolerable so they get the maximum government gas milage ratings.

Shik said: Impreza is 99% built and assembled in Japan, the suggested oil weight of the WRX comes from the trials and tribulations of Subaru Engineers who designed and built these motors to last thousands and thousands of day-to-day trouble-free driving miles, not simply a "USA owners manual".

Bzzt. Cars in Japan are junked after about 30,000 miles (it becomes really expensive tax-wise after that). I've said it before, I'll say it again --> this is the reason we don't have the STi here -- it woludn't last very long by U.S. standards.

So the oil recommendation in Japan is for a weekend-driven car designed to run for 30,000 miles within 50mph speed limits (and usually much lower due to traffic). As opposed to a daily-driven car run for 150,000 miles at 80mph (USA).

Also the oil rating systems are different in Japan than in the U.S.

Still think you shouldn't follow the USA manufacturer recommendations if you live in the USA?

(of course, if you race the car or otherwise drive it in an atypical manner, all bets are off)

I'm pleased to see that Sheehan Motor Racing not only chose to use Redline oil in the WRX that they're running in the Touring Car series, they even used 10w30, a case of which sits in my garage, awaiting the arrival of my WRX.

Interesting.
I wonder what their drain intervals will be. 3,750 or 7500 miles? Probably more like 375 or 750. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif
Dennis

Sheehan Motor Racing? Never heard of them. I'm an avid fan of Touring Car racing (BTCC, DTM, I even went to a Swedish Touring Car series race last fall), I've never seen a WRX racing. I didn't even know Subaru had a Touring Car. Is it front wheel drive?

No it's a WRX and the series is the USTCC here in the states. Read the info on the home page here at iClub.

Interesting. I hadn't ever heard about this series. I just went to the USTCC site. USTCC appears to be an amateur (i.e. unpaid driver) series where you can run just about anything from a '92 Civic to a 2002 WRX. Touring Cars (as in DTM, BTCC) are traditionally 300hp+ 2 liter normally aspirated cars costing millions and raced by paid professionals like Alain Menu and Jason Plato - world class drivers at a similar level as Colin McRae or Richard Burns. USTCC sounds fun, but it's certainly not Touring Cars proper. I'm surprised they don't get in trouble for using that name. I thought Touring Car was an official FIA classification like F1 or WRC.

Give it a chance to catch on here in the states. Maybe then they will add another class that is more akin to the BTCC for pro drivers and still have the amatuer class. I think it is great that SOA is sponsering Sheehan.

Actually, harrydog, they tried to bring real Touring Car racing to the USA back in 1994-1997 but it was a comercial flop. The series was called NATCC and it was run with real TC spec cars just like the ones in Europe and Australia. I saw one of the series races at Lime Rock, and the cars were sick- like 300hp+ Dodge Stratus with 20 inch magnesium wheels and 6 speed sequential gearboxes. I guess it's cool that Subaru is "sponsoring" a WRX in this new "series", but realistically this is just amateur club racing with a fancy name, not a pro Touring Car series! You can read more about the defunct NATCC <a href="http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jackr/touring/snatc.html">here</a>.

Ok guys. Time to start a new thread. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif
Dennis

OK back to the main topic. A note of interest regarding Redline oil that I had forgotten until yesterday when I was looking at a bottle of oil is, they don't recommend switching to their oil until the engine is broken in. They claim that their oil has up to 25% greater lubricity than other synthetics, so I assume that is the reason. For this same reason, you can usually pick up a couple hp by switching to Redline.

Jude - Formula One didn't work in this country due to lack of interest back in the early '90's, but the F1 race at Indy last year was a great success, so who knows. Times change. Attitudes and interests change. Real Touring Car racing might return here if they market it properly.

Just wondering: What affect does the popularity of a race series or the pay scale of the drivers have to do with the stresses applies to the engines?

Jude- I think that the debate here has been kept to a reasonable level of civility, but you might want to take a little of the acid out of your answers. You can debate people and make your points without insulting them. Please don't claim that you are not a little sarcastic with your responses, needlessly I might add, you are.

BTW, the fact that a really thick oil is stuck to my upper engine parts at startup does not make me feel better if it has the consistancy of gel at low temps.

[This message has been edited by jlyttle (edited March 15, 2001).]

Necromancer says:

Bzzt. Cars in Japan are junked after about 30,000 miles (it becomes really expensive tax-wise after that). I've said it before, I'll say it again --> this is the reason we don't have the STi here -- it woludn't last very long by U.S. standards.


So the oil recommendation in Japan is for a weekend-driven car designed to run for 30,000 miles within 50mph speed limits (and usually much lower due to traffic). As opposed to a daily-driven car run for 150,000 miles at 80mph (USA).



Also the oil rating systems are different in Japan than in the U.S.


That's good to know. That also must be why most Japanese engines such as Subaru, Honda, Toyota, have had a reputation since they've been in this country, of not lasting too long.

Maybe someone should tell Subaru to start putting the right recommened oil specs in our owner's manual for US-Driven cars. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Thanks for the tip.

jlyttle, I'm glad my sarcasm wasn't lost on everyone. I find it amusing that even when provided with street oil weight recommendations from 3 internationally renowned WRX tuners and rally teams, despite years of experience with these engines, people question their unanimous judgement, citing "owners manuals" or a small potatoes race team that just got their first EJ20 several weeks ago. Maybe I am just old fashioned in that I put far more weight in experience and results than theory and marketing.

I'd argue that "the popularity of a race series or the pay scale" dramatically effects the credibility of the technical advise. For hypothetical example, if Prodrive recommended something different than Shehan Racing, who's recommendation do you suppose is backed by more extensive development and testing? Here's an idea: maybe it's time for someone to end this thread by emailing Prodrive for an EJ20 street car oil recommendation?

[This message has been edited by Jude DeMeis (edited March 15, 2001).]

The 2002 EJ20 (as opposed to previous model year EJ20's) is something no one has more experience with than Subaru, unless Subaru is giving out their secrets. Subaru, along with nearly every other car mfg'er, runs extensive durablity tests on their current engines both during development and also during full production. They take a few samples off the line and slam them through some durability tests. Wide open throttle at max. RPM for days.

I'll bet Prodrive's response will be similar to what's in the owner's manual. My manual is something like 5W30 "preferred", 10W30 for higher temps and 20W50 for severe driving. IIRC, it also lists some straight weight oils for severe driving. SAE 30 and one or two others.
WRX owners - Does your manual state something similar to the above?
Dennis

[This message has been edited by bluesubie (edited March 15, 2001).]

ottos, the basic EJ20 engine design (bottom end, crank, bearing and piston clearances, bore, stroke, oilpump, etc.) has changed very little for years and years. Nothing that I am aware of would change the lubrication requirements of the 2002 USA spec mill. If anyone knows of any fundamental mechanical differences, please post. Engine management, head gasket design, etc. don't count because they do not effect lubrication.

Just run 10w-30 and it will be fine.

If your gonna be on the track for more than half the life of the car, then adjust accordingly.

If you live in the ice cap region next to polar bears adjust accordingly also.

I plan on 10-30 Redline. then change every 5000miles depending on how hard i run the car on that particular oil change.

EJ20WRX

Not only do we need the oil recommendation, but we need the type of usage that it is optimized for.

However, Subaru probably has it under control. After running the engine for days and days at wide-open-throttle and maximum speed, if they see the oil begin to show weakness, they would specify a higher quality oil and retest. They do this until they see that the oil condition holds steady at maximum power.

Thus the engine is "comfortable" at max. power, and even hard street use is a piece of cake for it.

Keep in mind that a viscosity recommendation that is based on what is true for a petroleum based oil may not hold true for a quality synthetic.
Redline 10w30 for the street is the same oil as Redline 30 weight racing oil, the only difference being the racing oil has virtually no detergents. It has greater viscosity and much greater film strength at high temperatures than a 15w40 petroleum.
There are quite a few "real" racing teams that use 10w30 weight oil. As an example, Kelly Moss Motorsports races Porsches. They have 3 IMSA/SCCA Pro Series National Championship titles. They also supply cars and engines to many other professional (like Rohr Porsche)and amatuer racers including highly modified GT3-R's which are often run in endurance/LeMans type races such as the 12 hrs. of Sebring.
I spoke to them about what oil they use and guess what? They use Redline 30 weight for most types of racing. They even used it in the air cooled Porsche engines which probably run hotter than the EJ20 does. And no, they don't rebuild their engines after every race. Usually they will only tear an engine down at the end of each season as a matter of routine.

What would that accomplish other than providing just another opinion? What I mean is, how many of these engines with 80-120k miles on them does Prodrive deal with? How would they know better than anyone else what the effects of differing weights of oil over years will have on these engines? Other than Subaru who has been building boxer engines for the street for 20 years?

I try to be civil and use reason in my arguments, please respond in kind. Biting comments are insulting to those that you are talking with. It does not make you any more "clever", it just makes you seem like an a-hole, which may or not be the case. I don't know you, so I won't judge, but you do make it SEEM that way.

There are few, if any, engineering organizations (Subaru Japan included) that have as much experience or miles on hard driven street and race EJ20s than Prodrive. Considering an oil recommendation by such experts to be "just another opinion" may be civil, but it's certainly does not seem reasonable. I'm going to email them.

I took another look at my OBS owner's manual. Looks similar to what was posted in the beginning of this thread by someone that has the WRX service manuals.
5W30 Preferred-showing a temp range of around below -20F to 104F.
Under that is a box with 10W30, 10W40 for higher temps. Right around 0F to 110F or so.
No wonder people are confused. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif
Under "severe duty" the following are recommended: 30, 40, 10W50, 20W40, 20W50.
It also talks about lower vis oils providing better fuel economy and in hot weather a higher vis is required to "properly lubricate the engine".

And yes, as mentioned this is for petroleum oils. Don't count on SoA "approving" synthetic use anytime soon. I heard that FHI has been testing them but are still wary about synths causing damage to the seals over the long term. They should talk with Prodrive. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Dennis

Will running synthetic void my warranty?
James

Guys I am also looking into what oil to use in my car at its first service and so sent this mail to Mobil

To: hurleybt@mobil-europe-lubes.com

Hello,
I am just about to take delivery of a new car and had heard that using a
fully synthetic oil was bad for an engine in the first 5000 miles of its
life as it stops the bedding in process, can you confirm this or if it is
not correct can I use a fully synthetic such as Mobil 1 Motorsport from
1000 miles? If I have to use a Mineral oil, do Mobil produce one? If not
which would you recommend? By the way my car is a Subaru Impreza WRX-R
STi VI.

Thanks Ian

here is the reply I received

The product recommended for new Imprezas is Mobil 1 5W-40 which we supply to
Subaru dealerships. Unfortunately it is not available through any other
retail channels.

Mobil 1 0W-40 is not approved by Subaru for new vehicles. Mobil 1
Motorsport could be used for older cars that are out of warranty.

With regard to using a fully synthetic engine oil in a new vehicle, we would
have to say it depends. The trend now is for new vehicles to go to the
normal service interval before an oil change is done. Therefore, full
specification products are used from the word go. This means that the
'running in' period has effectively gone and owners should follow the advice
given in the owner's manual on how to operate the vehicle from new.

Our information is that Subaru recommend an oil change interval of 7500
miles or 6 months, which ever comes sooner, for their turbo charged 2 litre
models from 1991 onwards. If you are going to use Mobil 1 5W-40 it would
seem sensible to fit when it goes in for the first service.

If your dealer is not supplied by Mobil you could ask our Customer Service
dept if they can identify a dealership where we do. They can be contacted on
0800 243413.

Fred Wells
for
Barbara Hurley
Technical Help Desk
Mobil Oil Co. Ltd.
Great Britain
hurleybt@mobil-europe-lubes.com

In my owners handbook it says use
Subaru Motor Oil
SG 10W-30(SG type)
SH 10W-30(SH type)
SJ 5W-30(SJ type)

I am still none the wiser, only more confused!

Oh boy! Another Oil thread!

I'm not sure that anyone is reading this thread anymore, buy I thought I'd throw in a little more information reguarding synthetic oil and oil in general.. Automakers generally specify that you use an API rated oil in your car, and give some rating, I.E. SJ, SH, etc.. Here is a link to the American Petroleum Institute web site.
http://www.api.org/programs_services/quality/oilchart.htm

While an automakers may recommend that you not use synthetic oil, they can't void your warranty for using it as long as it conforms to the API standard they have specified. Basically that would be any SJ oil.

After reading extensively on the subject, and despite not being down with any racing teams, I have to conclude that your best bet is to change your oil regularly, and use a brand name oil. That's it. Anything else is a waste of brainpower.

- G

Audi and VW both adamantly insist that you should not have your first oil change sooner than what's specified in the manual (I forget what it is exactly - something like 5K or 7K miles). They claim that their engines are factory filled with a special break-in oil that must not be changed too soon in order to insure proper seating of rings. That seems strange to me but who am I to question the factory?
Other manufacturers have no restrictions on how soon you can do your first oil change. Some cars such as Porsche, come with a factory fill of synthetic, which is generally considered not the best for break-in since it is "more slippery" than petroleum and may not allow a quick seating of the rings.
Amsoil says no problem changing to their oil right away, but Redline suggests not using theirs until after 3K miles.
The bottom line, I think, is that there is no strong consensus of opinion on the subject and you must make your best educated guess as to what you want to do with your car.
I know what I'm going to do. Do you?????? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

I know this is kind of a dead subject now, but I'm sure there are still some people interested, so....
I had emailed SPD Tuning awhile ago, asking what viscosity oil they recommended for the EJ20 in the new WRX. Here's the reply from Mike Shields.

"I would stick with what ever the manufacturer recommends for viscosity. Do not go heavier, as the wide range viscosity oils (5-50, 10-50) look good on the label, but the 10-30 and 20-40 oils are much better in the motor for reasons I will not get into here.* The engine has an oil cooler and generally stable oil temperatures, including water heated oil at warm up, so ultra thick or ultra thin rated oils are not needed anyway."

* I think what he is alluding to here is the fact that the wide range viscosity oils use large amounts of VI improvers which are not stable under high shear loads and will break down rather quickly, causing problems. That's why I would not use a 5w50, even in synthetic.

I realize this is just one persons opinion but it is from someone who is a known expert on Subaru's and is in line with what most oil experts say.

[This message has been edited by harrydog (edited March 17, 2001).]

As for the warranty/synthetic issue, here is an answer:

I picked up my WRX friday, and asked the dealer if the service department carried synthetic. He said yes, but you have to ask for it if you come in for an oil change, otherwise you will get a dino/synthetic blend. If the dealership puts in synthetic, it will not void your warranty.

Believe me, it will not void your warranty even if you put the synthetic in yourself. It's a non-issue. Use synthetic if you want to and don't worry about it. It's using the wrong API rating that could get you in trouble but virtually all oil sold will meet the current API specifications.