Someone (rumor) indicated possibly plus 75-100 hp with getting rid of two of the catalytic converters add a header and decent exhaust...????

sounds way too good to be true to me.??

just seeing what anyone else has heard.

thanks...

That somebody doesn't know what they are talking about. Maybe around 25 with the header, exhaust and cats, or maybe even less. It all depends on how this engine responds to mods.

I personally am against removing cats though, but I won't go into that.

What Eby said - plus removing cats is a selfish act that can cause more problems than it solves. IF one were to alter the setup, I'd suggest maybe lose the pre-turbo cat, and then replace the other two with larger, hi-flow cats. I'd only be willing to screw with the emissions if I knew I could get similar HC reduction with better performance. I'd feel ok If the car wasn't technically LEV anymore, but I couldn't go catless. A WRX with two big cats is still cleaner than my neighbor's Jeep Cherokee, and we both drive around by ourselves. That's my rationalization.

From exhaust and Down pipe, your looking at 16-20. Header would yield another 10-16. cold air intake around 12-16. In bay intake 6-10. Panel filter prolly around 5-6.

Just my guesses on what I have seen other turbo cars do. Don't flame as I will just state once again that these are guesses.

Ken

I posted this in the Powertrain forum a few days ago. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif
http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/Forum24/HTML/001633.html



[This message has been edited by Adrian128 (edited February 24, 2001).]

If you remove the cats and screw up the O2 sensor readings, you may actually hurt the performance. Best to get a system like Adrian128 posted that has been dyno proven.

Here is the article adrian posted: (thanks adrian)
<IMG SRC="http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1418522&a=10612127&p=41586090&Sequence=0&res=high" border=0>

My take on this info: this car made 84Kw on this 4-wheel dyno stock and made 96Kw with a turbo-back exhaust including a high-flow cat. That represents a gain of 12Kw or 14.3%. Not bad IMO. If you apply this percentage gain the the US car's 227bhp, it would increase hp to 259bhp. Group buy anyone? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

Jordan

where do I sign!?!?!? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif
Keith

I want one..lets get an order and some contacts at the spoh are they in Sydney?

I would be up for a group buy on a system. Let me know if anyone gets something going.

Chuck

I'm assuming that $1875 was Aussie dollars? If so I'm totally in for a group buy..If those dyno numbers are right I can totally live with 259HP
James

Get rid of your cats with that luvverly turbo motor. Big restriction. They only contain nasty super poisnous metals anyway......but the government don't tell you about that little problem do they?

Gethin http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

This is a valid question but unfortunately can only be answered after the car is dynoed before and after.

On the MKIV Supra for instance, removing both cats is good for about 35 rwhp, but this is mainly due to the boost pressure being increased by the lack of backpressure. It is hard to say what the gain might be on the Subaru, but since the car has 3 cats, I'm thinking it could be substantial...perhaps 25 hp or so. I sure hope so! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Steve

for that reason you just stated steve is why im going with strait through up and down pipes.

-grant

And I hope all of you that run straight pipes get caught and fined the $2500 that you get for messing with emissions control devices.

Ahh whats the difference, if the gov really cared about emissions they would do something about those stupid suvs driving around. I am sure a wrx with its 2.0 4cyl isnt going to hurt to bad. I plan on getting 1 high flow cat instead of the 3.
oh, and 260hp from just an ehxuast!! YEAH!!!!!! man that just makes me happy:-D
keith

Unfortunately, I live in an area where cars must pass emissions testing and I will neeed to find out if a 1 cat system will pass. Hopefully that information will be available soon. If anyone has that info, please post it.

Eby, don't worry. I won't drive my de-catted WRX in Alaska. Seriously though, you must look at the big picture. At this point in time, the amount of pollution from passenger cars as a percentage of all pollution from all sources, is fairly small. Couple that with the fact that the percentage of drivers who are enough of a die hard enthusiast to tamper with the exhaust system on their car is a VERY small percentage of drivers as a whole. Bottom line is, the effect of a small number of people changing their exhaust systems is going to be almost literally zero. It truly is. There are far more important pollution issues that deserve attention.

Just because it won't effect the big picture that much doesn't make it right. That's like saying it's okay to kill a few thousand people because out of the billions on earth you won't even notice them gone.

Harrydog: your statement sounds to me like a rationalization so you personally can feel OK about creating more emissions. Put about 500 million of you on the planet & that's why pollution is out of control. However, I do agree that all these SUVs with big V8s are ridiculous. I'm from NJ where it seems that half of the total cars on the road are 4 x 4 SUVs. We barely get any snow in this state & since just about the whole state has been paved over I find it silly that so many choose to drive them. I think it's a ego/power thing...

Then again cats do nothing to help emissions until the motor is fully warmed up. They also don't do much on a well tuned car. If California or other states want to regulate strict emissions laws that is fine, but don't push your laws on places that don't want or need those kind of standards. California has effectively convinced Subie to make one choice of emission level available on the WRX. If we want to modify that that it is our own business. If you want to rice out your WRX that is your business, I won't try to regulate you (although if anything should be outlawed, it is the rice look.) I realize completely removing the cat violates a federal regulation. Where in the constitution does the federal government get that right? That's right they don't, it is a state's rights issue and I guess they will have to hire federal inspectors to come around and inspect cars because my state is not going to do it. I really get sick of this kind of issue of people in large population centers pushing what they think is right down our throats, the US is not a democracy it is a republic, the combined numbers of people in the metro areas outnumber the rural areas but they can not force thier will on us. I see one enviromentalist here is actually from Alaska, what do you think, should the people of Alaska be allowed to vote themselves weather or not they drill for new oil in the Artic? Or should it be left up to the masses in NYC? I bet you think it should be something everybody votes on because the people actually living, breathing, surviving, and persuing happyness in Alaska would vote to drill away. Sorry for the rant folks but weather you drive a Insight or a 1980 big block Suburbon, it's you own business what you do to it, and I think only the Insight would not benifit from removing the Cats.

It is all a matter of degree I think. If a few people driving around with modified exhaust systems is bad, so is not driving around in an electric car or some other hybrid. You are also contributing to the problem by not driving one of those (based on your rationalization).
As to the issue of me rationalizing to feel OK about contributing to more emissions, well, I don't even believe that there is a problem to begin with. Most of the debate over automobile emissions has to do with CO2 and how it contributes to global warming. NASA has recently found much evidence that any global warming that may be occuring is not due to CO2 but to particulate emissions.(actually, many researchers think that global warming is a natural trend and that humans have nothing to do with it) Cars have long since stopped producing particulates as part of their emissions. The main man-made sources for these are the burning of coal and diesel fuel.
But it is even highly argueable that global warming is even occuring. There are researchers who maintain that man-made global warming is physically impossible.
The recent meetings of 180 nations to discuss the Kyoto Climate Change Protocol produced the conclusion that North America (US & Canada) produce 1.6 billion tons of carbon as CO2 annually but that the forests, soil and wetlands absorb over 1.7 billion tons of CO2 annually. It was concluded that N.America contributes little or no CO2 to the atmosphere.
Do I think there is a serious problem with pollution of our ground waters? Absolutely. Disposal of toxic wastes is a problem. Factories spewing carcinogens into the atmosphere is a problem. There are many pollution related problems, but automobile emmissions is not one of them.
The entire air pollution/global warming issue has been blown way out of proportion. Don't believe everything you hear on the news. Do a little open minded research of your own.
I have absolutely no qualms about removing a catalytic converter. None. If it makes you feel good to drive whatever the government says you must drive, regardless of whether it makes sense or not, fine.
Well, I'll get off my soap box now and continue my research into who offers the best aftermarket exhaust for the WRX!

[This message has been edited by harrydog (edited February 25, 2001).]

Actually the front (pre)cat at least is only effective as the car is warming up.

Glenn

Edit:
that post was worthless
sorryhttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif
keith

[This message has been edited by Keith (edited February 25, 2001).]

To top things off I say we in our own existance will eventually kill the earth. So weither you drive, take the bus, or car pool you're still polluting. All we're doing is prolonging things. There won't be a huge difference if you have your cats removed or not. It's inevitable.

[This message has been edited by [freeman] (edited February 25, 2001).]

Have any of you who are saying get rid of the cat been to L.A.? Because if you have you would know that smog is a big issue. Abd I personaly don't like to see brown when looking at the mtn.s. And because of sticter emmisions the smog problem has gotten better. And yes SUV's do make more emmisions and yes desial does to. But we should all do are part to help keep the enviorment clean. Atleast to some extent. So don't just remove the cat's replace them with hi flow ones and I won't conplain.

Glad we are actually bringing the environment into this discussion -- not a common thing to see on a performance car board.

Gethin said:
They [cats] only contain nasty super poisnous metals anyway.....

Ahuh. Like Platinum, right? The stuff you buy for you g/f to put on her finger?

harrydog said:
But it is even highly argueable that global warming is even occuring.
...
It was concluded that N.America contributes little or no CO2 to the atmosphere.

Forgive my lack of tact, but this is straight BS. In much the same way as it was once thought that drinking crude oil would cure arthritis, the common cold, etc. It took some years of debate and naysayers, but in the end, not even Rush Limbaugh can refute science.

-------------

Note that you can probably reduce COx emissions on a partially decatted car by simply running leaner. You would produce more NOx due to hotter combustion though, but this is only an issue in cities where visible smog is a problem (LA, LV, Pheonix. etc.). Otherwise NOx just breaks down, catalyzed by sunlight.

On a local level, do consider the kids choking on the sidewalk as you drive by. There's some wiggle room in emissions, but a "screw the world" selfish attitude will give you a car that impresses nobody.


[This message has been edited by Necromancer (edited February 25, 2001).]

Catalytic Converters really have nothing to do with CO2. If anything they increase the amount of CO2 being released. Catalytic converters deal with three different things. CO, or carbon monoxide, which is a poisonous gas. Hydrocarbons which break down in sunlight to form ground level ozone(O3) which contributes to smog. Oxides of nitrogen (NO, NO2, NOx) which contribute to smog, acid rain, and cause irritation to the Human mucus membrane. The catalytic converter basically splits all those molecules apart so they can form new ones. The new molecules are N2, O2, and CO2.

I don't have any figures to support this, I'm just speculating. Those large SUV's may not be as bad as a WRX running catless. While the amount of exhaust gasses would be higher for the Suburban, the toxicity of those gasses could be higher on the WRX. That's because the SUV still has a cat, so while it is putting out more gasses, those gasses aren't as dangerous as the ones your catless WRX will be putting out.

I have no problem with people running high flow cats. However, just as a word of warning for anyone out there. It is illegal for you to replace the stock factory cat until the car has reached 50,000 miles or is 5 years old. Not to discourage anyone from running high flow cats or anything. I just wanted to let you know what you may be getting into.

http://www.spomotorsports.com/technotesWRX.cfm?CustomerID=#CustomerID
this shows the SYMS exhaust system technotes that states that 49hp can be gained with one metal catalyzer and 56hp with no cat at all. This much power will bring the US spec WRX to world standards, but will cost about 2,541 USD before applicable taxes. The one cat system is currently being tested to be CARB exempt. Do you guys think it will pass? Hopefully so, because 49hp + 227hp = 276hp = street legal. OH YEAH!!!

That much HP may not apply to the US WRX. Remember the 49hp was reached on the Australian 218hp WRX. Still, the increases would be a lot, just may not be the full 49hp.

Edit, checked the link and that is for the old WRX/22B. Now you really can't say how it will effect the US WRX because those are different cars. Still, the increase would be quite a bit.

[This message has been edited by Eby (edited February 25, 2001).]

bring the WRX to world standards ?

its alread OVER what other WRX's make stock in the UK and AU.. i think your thinking about the STi.. which is NOT the WRX.. its a 'tuned' WRX..

i think sometimes people confuse the WRX and the STi.. especially when they compare them to other cars.. sure.. compare the STi to porshes and the like.. but dont compare the WRX..

and as for the cats.. i agree with the people saying leave them on.. do you people not notice the increasinly BAD and extreme weather patterns we are having.. every year the summer is the 'worst on record'.. we are getting increasingly extreme weather patterns and its our fault with pollution.. the world was fine 200 years ago..

I see what you guys are saying. I just want to correct my number crossing real quick. The entire system would be 5,421 USD+taxes. Well, anyways I can't wait to see the numbers if this system is applied to the US WRX. At least we can agree that this SYMS header is a work of art.

Is syms really going to make it carb exempt? That makes me happy. What's the penalty for removing one or two cats?

$2500

Okay then . . . And now back to our regularly scheduled program.

The posted article makes no mention of the modifications that may be necessary to the engine control computer. Do they just pre-drill holes for the O2 sensors, and stick them in the blank (catgutted) pipes?

T-WRX... I just spoke to a person at Hi Tech mufflers, and he said that there were no modifications to the computer, it was just the turbo back exhaust. And the whole thing is a bolt on unit, so there is a hole for the O2 sensor somewhere. (if you look closely, there is one after the resonator, and I think there is one in the down pipe)

To those who are interested, he said they will ship to the US, but he said prices would depend on the exchange rate. But I didn't talk to the manager..so that might be a different story. I'll go over there one day this week so I can have a good look at the quality of the system. I'll keep you posted. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Uh, am I way off or are ya'll sayin' this full exhaust is gonna be $2,500?!?

Adrian - Thanks for the info! I am very interested in this now. If no mods to the computer were necessary, we can be sure to see some similar pipes from US companies too.

No brahmzy, I was answering illmatic's question about what the fine is for getting caught removing your cat's. Although a complete high quality exhaust system would be getting up there(syms, cusco, etc, with headers and all).

About the weather in Florida 200 years ago, why not go back even farther? Lets go to pre Disney say 700 years. What was the summer temp then? Comparing current weather patterns to those recorded over the last 100 years is meaningless when the planet is millions of years old. Global warming is only real in that we are coming out of the last ice age, it's bound to be a little warmer. Stick around a few million years maybe the next ice age will suit you better. You don't have to wait 50,000 miles to replace a cat if the original cat is damaged somehow (like a rock, or hammer, or torch accidently punctures it). Once again if LA has a smog problem the people there can worry about it and stuff bananas in thier tailpipes or what ever turns them on. If I want to modify my car and save money doing it here I will. Hell I'll even take $15 of the savings and plant another tree in the yard to make up for it!

Woah, as my impatience increases for my WRX, my reading skills decrease. Yikes! I hope I don't have to spend more than $800 for just the exhaust! I can wait on the headers, I think.

Did the polar ice caps from the last ice age that once covered much of this continent only begin to recede since the start of the Industrial Revolution? Or maybe all those hunter/gatherers running around the countyside 10,000 years ago were just terrible polluters. That's the only explanation I can think of, since it is human pollution that has caused global warming, right?
Did you know that LA smog predates the automobile and even the settlement of that area by white man? That's because LA is unique in that it has a natural inversion layer that holds everything down in the basin. Maybe everyone living in LA should be forced to ride bicycles or drive electric cars, then there would be nothing to worry about. No WRX's for LA. And even better, we can expand that idea to iclude all of California. Then of course, other states will see the beauty of this and begin to fall into place and it will only be a matter of time before the whole county is the perfect Eden it was meant to be. Write your congressmen and let's get this ball rolling!

$2000 for an exhaust??? I'm making my own downpipe back in full stainless for $400 and making my downpipe which will be the prototype for my own downpipe. I can't imagine a full exhaust being more than $1000.

That article said they beat everybody to the punch which is to say that this is the first exhaust for the WRX. Not the best or even the best value.



No need to have this system hand imported from Austrailia when they will be everywhere in 3 months time. And from more established compaines

Dr Wot. That article was in an Australian magazine. It was for the Australian market. They are the first Australian company to make one for the new WRX that is a full stainless, full bolt on system. Just FYI.
Also, not that I am giving them a plug, but High Tech have been designing and making exhausts for the WRX since the they first made the WRX. They do know what they are doing. Which more established companies are you talking about? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by Adrian128 (edited February 26, 2001).]

Edit : Doh someone had answered that..

[This message has been edited by Xeno (edited February 26, 2001).]

That article said they beat everybody to the punch which is to say that this is the first exhaust for the WRX. Not the best or even the best value.

No need to have this system hand imported from Austrailia when they will be everywhere in 3 months time. And from more established compaines.

That was in AUSD. That comes out to around $1000 and change in USD. I contacted them, they say they will ship to the US and take Visa.

Ken