I got this from Off-Topic.net, a notorious flame-fest, but not without it's charm. Anyway

Posted by Shiv Pathak, writer for Sport Compact Car to rx-7 mailing list:

"I just spent all day driving our '02 WRX at Thunderhilln raceway. Stock for
stock, there is no comparison between it and an FD. The stock WRX
suspension/tire combo is pathetic. A Miata with good street rubber and
aftermarket shocks and springs laps just as fast around the track. Once
upgraded, I'm sure things will look better. But then again, an FD can be
upgraded as well"
Shiv


Dissappointing to say the least. If they put the WRX name on the car, it should be a handling beast. I was looking forward to making the WRX a daily driver if I moved up north. A '02 model should beat the pants off of a decade-old car.

Well, I'm not really surprised by this comment, but I don't expect the WRX (or any Subie for that matter) to be a "track beast".

Comparing equally modified RX-7's/ITR's/Miata's vs. Impreza's the Impreza is automatically at a disadvantage. It's built to an entirely different ideal. The other cars are meant to be exclusively tarmac vehicles, the Subaru isn't. 'Nuff said.

the U.S. WRX will have RE92's for stock tires, the same crap tires that come on the RS stock.

If you wanna compare cars, compare them stock vs. stock or modded vs. modded. A stock WRX is a killer out of the box. It at the top of best stock cars within 20-30k USD.

WRX needs tires and things will look much better. Coilovers and even better things will come our way. More power and YEAH BABY YEAH!

I took a ride in that car at the track yesterday. It has the HP, you can tell. The tires just suck so bad, I can't even explain. Where a WRX would break tires loose at 55mph, my Forester with Yoko AVS Sports and rear 20mm bar would start sqeeling tires at 65mph. That should explain it all.

The suspension is actually pretty good (for the road) -- and the tires blow of course.

It handles pretty nice with the 17's on.

Or, that's what I heard. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Glenn

PS what's an FD?

[This message has been edited by Glenn Wallace (edited February 24, 2001).]

That's a really strange comparison. Kind of like complaining that a base A4 1.8t can't keep up with a Vette around a road course. & duh, of course a Miata with good tires and a modded suspension will outcorner a stock WRX with the stock crap rubber!

You'd think that a writer for SCC would be able to do better.

FD is a 93-95 RX7...hardly fair to fault the WRX for not competing with a $35K purpose built 2 seater IMO. I hope Shiv is not in charge of SCC's project WRX's. He seems to have NO enthusiasum for the new WRX(yes I know he is supposed to be racing one this year). That is only based on his posts I have seen on this board, and the quote above and I could be wrong about this.

Jordan

[This message has been edited by FlashJordan (edited February 24, 2001).]

I was wondering the same thing, what is FD?

Turk

Call me a cynic, or a smart arse, but that was a message to RX 7 fans/owners. Maybe if he sent that message to this board then the review might be very favourable to the WRX. They still want to sell magazines you know, maybe he didn't want to alienate the RX 7 people.. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

The whole model code is FD3S actually.. the twin turbo RX7..

[This message has been edited by Adrian128 (edited February 24, 2001).]

Yeah, I have been a little shocked with the comments I have heard him make about the new WRX. He was in charge of the Project Impreza at SCC so he obviously is an Impreza fan but he hasn't show any of the enthusiasm and praise that the other writers at SCC have expressed for the WRX. I mean please put a decent set of tires on the WRX (it is common knowledge the Re92s stink) you are testing if you are going to compare the car to other cars with better tires and upgraded suspension. He obviously was looking for praise from his Rx-7 buddies and knew the things they wanted to hear. He is talking about a car from the era that killed off the Japanese Sports car in the US when they started charging insane prices well into the 30 and 40k range. Hardly a fair comparison of a 25k car.

Jordan, don't know if you noticed but Shiv's partner in the WRX roadracing was in the suspension forum looking for 17x8 wheels.

ColinL - good catch

Everyone else - I just want to clarify Shiv's comments. A few others already posted regarding this, too. Remember, this car was bone stock except for a cage and racing seat. That means we were running the stock 205/55 16 Bridgestone RE92 tires with an M+S rating, stock brake pads, stock brake fluid and stock suspension.

As expected, the tires were by far the weakest point and gave up the fight pretty quickly. These tires were never meant to see the track, especially on a car with 227 horsepower weighing 3085 lbs. We removed the entire row of outside treadblocks on the left rear tire. Tore them right off. Two of the other three tires showed serious chunking. Needless to say, a tire like this is not going to survive high speed drifts for very long. Ask anyone that was at the track day and they will probably say they could hear the tires squeeling all the way around the track.

The suspension has an excellent feel for being stock. More aggressive and more refined than the RS. Shiv and I were talking about how nice this suspension is out of the box. But things are different on a racetrack, and we will be looking for significant increases in spring rate, shock damping and camber adjustability. What we are looking for, no one would consider for use on the street. Unless you really had a beef with your kidneys.

This was my first experience driving the WRX on the track and I must say that I was very surprised by the handling of this car. This car is an absolute blast to drive at the limit. The stock balance is toward understeer, but you can compensate for this with deep trailbraking. What I really found amusing was how tossable this car is without getting into trouble. A few times while pushing very hard I got the car very sideways, but it is so easy to catch it's funny. I think a tactic I will use in the races is to pitch the car into a corner to scare the crap out of the drivers behind me so they back off thinking I'm about to crash, then gather it up and motor off into the distance!

Contrary to Markus's comments, I'm confident that the WRX will be a "track beast." It's got great, reliable power out of the box and with a few suspension and tire tweaks (that you would do to any car destined for the track) the car will handle great.

I really don't think any of you are going to be dissappointed with this car!

Gary

PS-I was the one driving Joel Gat's Miata that got the lap times that were similar lap times to the WRX. I've owned a Miata for 5 years and can drive the p!ss out of a Miata on the racetrack. If the WRX had the same mods the Miata had (a decent set of tires and a stiffer suspension) there would be NO comparison.

[This message has been edited by GarySheehan (edited February 25, 2001).]

Ok, thats not suprising, the tires on the WRX flat suck big donkey balls. I bet you could get a better lap time swapping on the tires & rubber from a stock Forester S.

The RE-92's are the the second worst tire I've seen on a new car, with the worst being the POS firestones on the low end civics.

Also I bet the suspention will wake up once REAL grip is at hand. Funny thing that people cant figure out that tire grip affects proper suspention tuning. For example My old beater with 4 used tires with the grip of hard plastic was matched quite well to the 11 year old factory srings and struts. When I put on the 15"s and good street tires the thing was horrible to drive. Take out all the sprin compliance in the front and it became passible.

"If you wanna compare cars, compare them stock vs. stock or modded vs. modded"

Wow, did you just quote me Imprezer! http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Anyway, everyone already knew the tires sucked... But no one understands why we are still getting them on the car despite the fact its a better car http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif

Sounds like the STi suspension upgrade might be a first mod for some folks, after the tires of course http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

(Heres a tip for everyone getting a WRX: Keep the RE92's until the cars broken in... About 10,000 miles or less, then get rid of them http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif)

As we all know from our experience with the 2.5RS, the RE92s are simply terrible. Now imagine how those tires will work on an Impreza with 60 more horsepower. Some may remember that our 2.5RS project car literally wore away the sidewall lettering after a weekend of hotlapping. Well, the more powerful WRX did the same in just one afternoon. A high performance car needs high performance rubber. No surprise there.

FWIW, the WRX press car we tested a couple months back at Buttonwillow came equipped with the 17" wheels and high performance tires. With that set up, the WRX lapped nearly as quick as the Integra Type R (which comes stock with some of the stickiest, softest tires this side of an R compound). At 2650lbs and with 195hp, the car is no slouch either. But add a little dirt, water, ice, mud, moving chicanes, etc,. and the WRX will walk over anything this side of a 911 turbo. I don't think there is any surprise there. I'll be the first to admit that comparing a stock WRX to a stock RX-7tt, 911 turbo, etc,. isn't exactly fair. After all, when was the last time you saw any of those fancy cars rolling on RE92s?

As for my historical lack of enthusiasm regarding the '02 WRX, pardon me for being a 2.5RS guy. I'm biased http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif However, I suspect that my tune will change once the car is appopriately modified for competition. Also keep in mind that the first WRX I drove was a STi V.III Type RA. Kind of hard for a stock '02 WRX to live up to the standard set by that stripped, lightweight homologation monster.

Shiv

[This message has been edited by shiv (edited February 25, 2001).]

well then i guess ill break in the car then take it out to a track day and just tear 'em up...since it dosn't seem like i'd be tearing up anything valuable.

-grant

Gary and Shiv, thanks for posting!

Gary, nice to hear your comments about the suspension. This is one of the nicest handling cars out of the box I've ever driven, and you're right, for track use it could definitely use some work (stiffer springs, and perhaps thicker roll bars, at the very least).

I am very very torn about whether to upgrade the suspension. I am going to get some decent rubber on and then see how I like it.

Glenn

PS on the understeer I actually noticed nice initial turn in and a bit of oversteer. I can imagine it turning to plow understeer on stock tires when pushed to the absolute limit. Does that sound like your experience?

[This message has been edited by Glenn Wallace (edited February 25, 2001).]

the fact that you are even comparing it to those terrific cars (RX7 - 911) says amazing things about the WRX.
one question about the WRX on the track. did the brakes hold up, or were they a weak point too?
thanks

Glenn,

If your initial turn-in is under slight braking or zero throttle, you should feel oversteer and get the car to rotate in nicely. Once you get partially back into the throttle the car then tends toward understeer. Offroad, this would be perfect since you want to over-rotate the car to set up for early power on exit with the car mostly straight. On-track we need the car to handle more neutral.

TR,

The brakes held up amazingly well considering the weight of this car and the speeds we were reaching on the track. The pads did fade after several very hard laps, but came right back after a few cool down corners. Pretty impressive considering the splash shields completely cover the insides of the rotors and are fitted quite close (again, perfect for rally). With a hotter pad and some fresh air to the rotors, we don't think there will be any problems on the track.

Gary



[This message has been edited by GarySheehan (edited February 25, 2001).]

Glenn,

You're absolutely right. I'm sure Gary can elaborate more on the finer details but, from my experience, the car (even on stock tires) feels wonderful driven at 7/10ths. Gary and I were talking about this over lunch the other day. Pretty darn neutral and very responsive to trailing throttle/braking. Very placeable and easy to drive quickly. It's only when pushed to (and beyond) it's limit does it plow and get a big "wiggly." How's that for a fancy journalist term? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif My ears still ringing from those screaching RE92s... ouch.

Shiv

EDIT: Ooops... Gary beat me to it. See how fast he is? http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

PS: TR-- Yep, comparing a stock WRX, which is essentially the all-purpose, do-anything Swiss army knife of cars to a dedicated, single purpose road race car like the FD3S RX-7 says a lot about the Suby. And to compete with that single purpose in mind takes some well thought out upgrades and modifications. Tweaks that Gary, I and a few specialists will be working on over the next several months. These WRXs are going to fly, baby!

[This message has been edited by shiv (edited February 26, 2001).]

Shiv? Partial to FDRX7's and EJ25s? <FONT SIZE=+1>Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh...</FONT>

http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif

(not that what he's saying isn't absolutely correct, of course http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif)

Hi Gary,

As someone who has driven with you, and watched you do things with Miata's that defied physics, your opinion means a lot to me. With you driving and me as a passenger in my then stock 95'R, you revealed to me that if I wanted to go faster on the track money, would be better spent on track time rather than suspension modifications.

So I read your's and Shiv's comments with interest, as I'm now reconsidering selling my Miata when I get my WRX wagon. Should I keep my Miata as a track car, or will the WRX with some RA1's and brake pads provide equal amounts of bliss on the track? Right now my 95'R is set-up perfectly for the track, and I'm wondering if I'll be disappointed with the WRX's performance?

Martin

There are little things you can do to the suspension to help with understeer that cost a lot less then a new suspension setup.

Tire pressure: increase the tire pressure in the front. For cars that understeer, I usually run 3-4psi higher in the front.

Toe out in the front: 1/8 - 1/4. The more toe out will increase tire wear. Also at higher speeds most cars will start to wander.

Better tires: try to go +0. Hopefully 225/50s will fit on the rims, but that's pushing it for the 6.5" wide stockers. Why couldn't they have come with 16x7" :-( Hell, even a dedicated summer tire will perform better then A/S.

This has done wonders for my E30 M3 which will initially understeer if pushed hard.
http://www.susquehanna.com/susq/other/stuning.htm http://mr2.com/FORMS/tire.html

Just wanted to comment that this was one of the best discussions I've read on the board in many months. Thanks for taking the time to write everybody. Sorry you missed your lunch, Joel. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Stick a set of Kumho V700 Victoracers (or BFGs or Hoosiers for that matter) on the Rex, then we'll talk http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

I couldn't care less about handling with those awful RE92s, and I feel they'll poison nearly any handling discussion regarding the WRX. Almost any car will feel crappy running that rubber.

-- ConeMasher

Yeah, why can't we have more posts like this? I also found it particularly informative because I'm planning on picking up a 1.6L Miata to go with the WRX wagon http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif.

Hello,

Damn, my name got mentioned and I wasn't even here. Heh. I "raced" against Gary when he was in the WRX and I was in the Miata. Before I say how I fared, let's start with what I have done to my miata...

My miata had 133 hp stock, now has cold-air-intake, headers, exhaust, aluminum flywheel, H&R springs at about 70% stiffer than stock, Koni yellow shocks, aftermarket swaybars front and rear with poly and delrin bushings, heim joint end links front and rear, a great rollbar that had a noticeable stiffening effect on the chassis, Hawk HP+ pads, Powerslot rotors, stainless brake lines, oil cooler, etc etc etc etc. There are many mods I'm sure I've forgotten to list. And the car weighs about 2200 pounds.

I'm shod with RE-71s (205/50R15), too. I'm guessing if you took "as new" prices, my miata would cost as much as the stock WRX. My miata is as modified as you can get and still retain full interior, power-everything, street car status without forced induction. This is comparing a golden apple (with decent hi-per tires) to an orange being carted on wheelbarrel tires.

I'm also a pretty damn decent track driver, on par with most of my fellow instructors http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

And now how'd I do? I kept up with Gary through the first 7 turns. Pretty happy about that. In fact, I was exstatic because it was so damn easy to keep up with him. I thought I could do that with my eyes closed. Then I found out he was warming up the car http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif Hahahah... He started pouring on the juice and it was obvious that I was soon about to be outclassed. The WRX smoked me. Rolled me up, chewed the tip, and smoked a fatty. By the next lap, Gary was finishing turns as I was entering them. By 3 laps later, I hit the front straight just in time to see Gary pitch into the first turn at the end of the straight. I botched a shift, lost about 0.5 seconds wasted, and never again saw the WRX that session.

I'd like to think that was because he's a real racecar driver and I'm just some loudmouth schmuck. That makes me feel better http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

When Gary drove my Miata, at first it was obvious his brain was in stock-tire and brake mode - and it was obvious he thought he was driving on RE92s. There were a couple turns that he slammed on the brakes and then had to hit the gas (before we even entered the turn itself) because we had slowed down WAY TOO far. The day in the stock tire'd, stock brake'd 3100 pound car didn't prepare him for a decent tire'd, upgraded brake'd 2200 pound car http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

After about four laps, we pitted and he heard that his times were worse than mine (and remember, I got my butt handed to me when he was in the WRX). I think that made it all click for him. He transformed as a driver. Suddenly, years of miata racing emerged from hiding.

Gary drove as if he was one with my car. We entered turns some 10-20 mph faster than we had before. Gary was driving with both ends of the car. At one point, he shouted out "is this open passing?" When I said "YEP!", he did with my car something no mere mortal could have done. It was more than obvious that Gary was at home in a miata. He entered turn 3 at thunderhill (off camber, with the camber getting worse at the outside edge, along with that edge being covered in dirt and crap) at a speed more akin to when Shiv was driving his RX7 on S-02s (with me as passenger, several events ago). Gary was constantly adjusting and shifting the angle of the car. His hands were moving at about the speed of light. He flew past one of the instructors who was in an Audi S4 (I think, we blurred by). Even though he was forced to make the pass in the worst possible place, with the worse possible line (which left him on the inside of the next turn), I think he took the turn faster than I could ever have done it on the proper line.

This was obviously "home" for Gary. When we pulled in, a guy who has been racing cars for years had a grin on his face, from ear to ear. He commented on how familiar the miata felt. He commented that my miata seems almost perfect in setup - as good as you could get a lux-o street miata with soft daily driveable springs (maybe he was exaggerating to be nice http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/tongue.gif). I had a slight oversteer problem, but aside from that, this apple is as golden as it gets. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

I'm guessing that with a few more laps, his time would have dropped below his WRX times - but after 7 laps, my street tires started to give (he was right, I was wrong, I shouldn't have feared killing my tires with my "mild" driving). Unlike the trailored WRX, my car is my daily and we didn't keep pushing lap times.

By the way, I think my riced out miata kicked the WRX's butt in the corners - the RE92s couldn't dish out real cornering skills. The WRX pulled like a MoFo on me in the straights - it probably has 80+ more horsepower. I think my car does mid-7s in the 0-60. The WRX is a lot faster than that. I'd like to think the WRX was just a faster straight-line car, but I'd be fooling myself, I think. The WRX with real tires will demolish my car. Look, a miata racer in my well setup miata, albeit after a good 2 hours of driving the WRX, posted about the same times. That should make all of y'all pretty happy. http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Anyway, I've just wasted all of lunch posting this http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif

Joel

[This message has been edited by Joel Gat, 1.8L (edited February 26, 2001).]

Martin,

Are you THE Martin? 2-tall Martin? Black Miata Martin? Laguna Seca and Sears Point Martin? How've you been?!

You've asked an interesting question. I think the WRX is going to be a great track car, but it is definitely going to be very different than a Miata. The feel or balance of these two cars can never be the same because they are so different. Weight, size, driveline, suspension type are way apart on these two cars and they really shouldn't be compared that way.

The WRX will require a different driving style than a Miata. The Miata is fun because you can really drive the car through the corners from both ends of the car with finnesse. The WRX is fun because you can get it to do really strange things in the corner with 4 wheel drive than you can't do with front or rear wheel drive. AND it trail brakes amazingly well into the corner (ABS off).

It's really too early for me to tell you what the ultimate behavior of the WRX is going to be since we'll be running much different tires, shocks and springs. And I've got some learning to do to understand what this car wants from me in order to get the most out of it. But from what I experienced last Friday, I'm excited about what's ahead and can't wait to see the results.

So, my advice, keep both the Miata and the WRX and use them BOTH for track and street. Then you can select one for your mood that day!

Gary

Hi Gary,

Yep, I'm the guy you said you always knew it was me because you could see the Bell sticker above the top of the windshield at all times. I'm doing fine, got married, had a kid 6 weeks ago and need a station wagon; hence the WRX. I was going to sell the Miata, but you have convinced me otherwise. Really appreciate the detailed response, as there are few who are better able to compare Miatae and WRXs.

BTW, congrats on the NASA Touring Car championship, though they gave to much credit to Richard for the LS drive in the wet! We know who put it on the polehttp://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif

Hey who is shiv p person???


-initialWRX

Shiv writes for Sport Compact Car. He owns Project RX-7, Project Miata and Project Impreza RS.

Martin,

Thanks for the plug. Yes, I did put the car on pole for the Laguna Seca race. But we outqualified the field by 3 seconds in the rain, so the officials called for an inverted starting grid, meaning Richard had to start from dead last. He did a hell of a job to come from the back and win that race!

Gary